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  #241  
Old 06-21-2015, 09:09 PM
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If you take out Iguodala and LeBron, then we're having a whole different conversation, Sly. I never said that LeBron didn't deserve the MVP. He did get four votes after all. My point was that the momentum of the entire series was altered once Iguodala was inserted into the starting lineup for the Warriors. I do feel that if the Cavs would've had Kyrie then it more than likely would've went to a game 7. LeBron was gonna get his stats regardless of who was guarding him, and he truly was the only reason the Cavs made it a series at all. I just feel that Iguodala provided the spark that drove the Warriors to close out the final three games.
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  #242  
Old 06-21-2015, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
It's how you measure performance in sports.
No, it is one way of measuring performance in sports.


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The games LeBron was out for injury, the Cavs went 1-7 (2-9 overall without James).
Yet Steph Curry basically played the whole season and we will never know how his team would succeed without him. We only know that they were at least 40 games over .500 with him.

....playing in a far superior Western Conference.

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I think that only further proves how valuable LeBron is to the Cavs. I've already addressed this earlier in the thread.
No, it only proves you have your own perception of what it takes to be the 2014-2015 Regular Season MVP compared to the most other basketball novices and experts alike.

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LeBron played in 84% of the games. He played enough.
And Curry played in 97.5%. A category where he is significantly had more value than Lebron.

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It's 157 total points difference, not 200+ (1900-1743). But when has "total" stats ever been used?
I don't know. There are many voters who I am sure use different and multiple metrics. When has "this was the team's record without him" used to name an MVP?

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We look at averages because it shows how well a player played. James didn't miss half the season, he missed 8 games during one stretch of the season and didn't play two games at the end of the season so he could be rested for the playoffs. Your argument just really doesn't hold up.
Don't show up for work 16% of the year and then ask your boss how valuable you were during the year.

Never mind, I forget you were a teacher.

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And when he's absent. Without James, the Cavs went 2-9 this year, with one of those wins coming in the last game of the year against a Wizards team that did not play Paul Pierce, John Wall or Bradley Beal.

That's how valuable LeBron is to the Cavs.
Yet you can't prove that Steph Curry's absence would have had such an impact. Is that fair to Steph Curry?

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I haven't forgot to mention anything.
Too bad. Your argument for Lebron is kind of weak.

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The Warriors were a great team this year, no one is forgetting or disputing that. But they are a playoff team, even without Curry.
Prove it.

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The Cavaliers have demonstrated no likelihood of doing the same.
Nor have they proved they could not make the playoffs without Lebron. Brooklyn, Boston, and Milwaukee made the playoffs and none of those team had two top 15 guys in their lineup plus Lebron.

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He was the best and most valuable.
But again, you take the award to be too literal. And seem to ignore winning.

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No he wasn't. The goal of both teams was to win and James was clearly more valuable to his team's goal.
And that would mean so much more if the Finals were Best of three.

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No, I'm using the logic you have expressly stated.
I would like to know where I expressly stated that Andrew Bogut deserved MVP over Lebron. I know I expressly stated that Lebron winning MVP would have been fine but I don't remember stating anything close to resembling that Bogut deserved it more than Lebron.


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I'd suggest you not take up defense for Alastor, he's been proven a liar multiple times now.
You mean the liar you are not going to 'put up with' but you continue to go back and forth with.

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Are you saying Bogut is more valuable than James because his team won? Of course you wouldn't say that.
Nope not saying that at all. I'm not even sure how you made that leap.

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He's the best and he's been the most valuable. That's why he should win the MVP.

But winning is a team accomplishment. The MVP is an individual accomplishment. Saying James accomplishments can only mean something if his team wins the series is asinine. And that's essentially what you're saying (when you argue from the "winning the series matters" angle).
No, I'm saying winning is another metric that matters in selecting an MVP. A very important one, but not the end all be all. Please don't put words in my mouth.

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It is a joke. As is the Heisman award and the NFL MVP (both given almost exclusively to offensive players and usually only QB or HB). It might be the best we have, but it doesn't mean it's not a joke. The only sport which hasn't made a complete fool of itself in the last few years is baseball, and even they still struggle with things like calling a pitcher MVP (Kershaw last year was the first pitcher to win the MVP since Koufax in '63, I believe) or a reliever Cy Young. But at least Felix Hernandez can win Cy Young even though he played on a terrible team.
Different sports with different criteria for different awards. And that is OK. The NBA seems to be using a criteria that works for their sport.

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They're not experts though. That's kind of the point. They are writers, with known, and many times obvious, biases.
Prove it. What are they biased against? Lebron? That guy who won it twice while he was at his most hated as a member of the loaded Heat. Is Steph Curry the cats meow to Hubie Brown? That non-expert who should step down and give his vote to you.
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  #243  
Old 06-23-2015, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Steele's Barber
You mean the liar you are not going to 'put up with' but you continue to go back and forth with.
Did he just lie about your position in the argument?
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  #244  
Old 06-23-2015, 10:49 AM
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Slyfox696 Slyfox696 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmt225 View Post
Can't we just accept that there is an unwritten rule that the MVP will always be the "MVP" of the winning team?
Then the award doesn't hardly have any meaning. And it's why the award is a joke, much like it is in other sports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowdown View Post
If you take out Iguodala and LeBron, then we're having a whole different conversation, Sly.
The only thing which would change is how quickly the Warriors would have defeated the Cavaliers.

You said Iguodala was the X factor...I'm just pointing out he was only the X factor for one team, not for the series.

Quote:
I never said that LeBron didn't deserve the MVP.
I understand that. I just disagree with your assessment Iguodala was the X factor in the series.
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Steele's Barber View Post
No, it is one way of measuring performance in sports.
It's the almost exclusive way we evaluate statistics over a period of time.

Quote:
Yet Steph Curry basically played the whole season and we will never know how his team would succeed without him.
Agreed. But we DO know how poorly the Cavaliers played without LeBron. Without LeBron they were 1-7 (or 2-9, if you want to count the last games or not), and with LeBron they were the 2nd seed in the East and the favorite to win the conference.

Sure we don't know what the Warriors would have been without Steph (though it is quite reasonable to assume they would have been good), but we do know how important LeBron was.

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No, it only proves you have your own perception of what it takes to be the 2014-2015 Regular Season MVP compared to the most other basketball novices and experts alike.
So most other perceptions don't revolve around the best statistics and value brought to a team?

I'm pretty certain this is another one of those statements you'd like to retract, like your earlier statement about the "flexibility" of voters to only vote for someone of the winning team.

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And Curry played in 97.5%.
But we aren't talking about Curry, we were discussing whether or not LeBron had played enough, which I proved he had. Don't be like Alastor, stick to just one topic.

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I don't know.


But you brought it up anyways. Got it.

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When has "this was the team's record without him" used to name an MVP?
Umm...all the time. Value to the team is always a primary component of MVP discussion and showing the difference in record in games played and games not played is fairly common in instances where it is appropriate.

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Don't show up for work 16% of the year and then ask your boss how valuable you were during the year.
I'll bet you dollars to donuts if you ask 100 bosses around the country that if they had an employee who only worked 86% of the year, but managed to bring in 200% more profit than anyone else, every boss in the country would take it in a heartbeat.

What do you think?

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Never mind, I forget you were a teacher.


That was weak.

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Prove it.
Klay Thompson - 2015 All Star
Andre Iguodala - 2012 Olympic Gold Medalist
Draymond Green - I think it's safe to say he's a future All-Star
Andrew Bogut - 2015 2nd Team All Defensive team
David Lee - 2010, 2013 All-Star
Harrison Barnes - 2013 First team All-Rookie team


I think it's a pretty safe assumption, given the level of talent.

Quote:
Nor have they proved they could not make the playoffs without Lebron.
They proved it for four years while LeBron was in Miami. And they weren't even close to making the playoffs. You know who didn't make the playoffs this year? Miami, after four straight years of being in the Finals with LeBron.

To ignore this evidence is quite silly.

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But again, you take the award to be too literal.
How can the "Most Valuable Player" not be the most valuable player? If it's just the award we're going to give to the winning team or the flavor of the year, then we probably ought to change the name of the award.

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And that would mean so much more if the Finals were Best of three.
No, it wouldn't. Both teams' goal was to win. LeBron was far more important to his team's goal than Iguodala was. The idea Iguodala is more important just because he had a better team around him is ridiculous.

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I would like to know where I expressly stated that Andrew Bogut deserved MVP over Lebron. I know I expressly stated that Lebron winning MVP would have been fine but I don't remember stating anything close to resembling that Bogut deserved it more than Lebron.
You didn't, nor did I say you did. But you ARE saying that winning essentially erases any other accomplishment, so I asked you then if Andrew Bogut was more valuable than LeBron James because his team won.

You never answered the question, though I did answer the question for you at least once. But it sure would be nice if you could address how you validate the argument winning overcomes anything else but Andrew Bogut wouldn't have deserved MVP over LeBron.

Quote:
You mean the liar you are not going to 'put up with' but you continue to go back and forth with.
I keep hoping he'll demonstrate some level of integrity. He's yet to do so.

And the "put up with" is far more about discipline than it is about response.

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Nope not saying that at all. I'm not even sure how you made that leap.
Because your position (or at least the one from which you are arguing) is essentially that winning trumps all. Either winning trumps all or performance matters. Which is it? Because LeBron and Iguodala weren't even close in performance in the series, and no one is arguing they are. Which means the only argument left (and the one you've taken) is the winning argument. And if we go with the winning argument, then you have to explain how Andrew Bogut wasn't more valuable than LeBron James.

Quote:
No, I'm saying winning is another metric that matters in selecting an MVP. A very important one, but not the end all be all. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Umm...that essentially IS your argument. Unless you want to make the laughable claim Iguodala outperformed LeBron James, then the only argument for Iguodala is that his team won. Because there's no doubt in anyone's mind that, all other things being equal, if the Cavs had won the series, then James would have been the MVP.

The only explanation for Iguodala winning over James is that his team won. Remove the team accomplishment criteria (pretending no team has won the series) and there is no disputing James is the MVP, likely unanimously.

There is no other metric by which Iguodala would have been Finals MVP.

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Different sports with different criteria for different awards.
And most of them a joke.

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Prove it. What are they biased against?
Not just biased against but biased for as well. And they want always want a fresh face, because a fresh face sells fresh copies. People get tired of the Patriots always winning, they get tired of the Cardinals and Giants and Yankees always winning. And they are tired of LeBron always winning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
Did he just lie about your position in the argument?
No, unlike you I'm not dishonest.
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  #245  
Old 06-23-2015, 10:58 AM
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As said numerous times you will never convince me that LeBron shouldn't have won but him not winning hardly makes it a joke in my eyes.

Unlike Jerry West (who's team lost 108-106 in game 7) the Cavaliers got flat out beat the last 3 games, they weren't games that were so close they could've went either way, they were won because Golden State was the better team. Iguodala in my eyes made that happen when he was inserted into the starting 5.

LeBron played better than anyone, without him the Cavs wouldn't have even made it to the playoffs let alone 2 games from a title (even with Irving and Love) and considering LeBron's numbers he was the best. At the same time though in my eyes it's hard to give it to a guy who's team lost by an average of 15 the last 3 games (or close to that) and lost in 6 games. Although LeBron should've been an exception the MVP award is for the player who contributes most to the teams success and although the Cavs played good, they weren't successful enough in alot of ways. At the end of the day nothings more valuable than winning in sports.
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  #246  
Old 07-08-2015, 10:33 PM
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Ty Burna Ty Burna is offline
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This Deandre Jordan saga is bullshit.
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  #247  
Old 07-08-2015, 10:46 PM
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it is the most awesome thing in sports this week
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  #248  
Old 07-09-2015, 12:19 AM
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He just screwed the Mavs big time. They let Tyson Chandler go and didn't pursue other centers because they thought the deal was done.
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