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  #1  
Old 04-07-2015, 01:24 PM
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Default Shawn Michaels the lowest drawing champion of WWE of all time

I thought it was Diesel, but, The lowest drawing champion was Shawn Michaels.

And still the WWE machine try to manipulate the fans to turn him goat.

Royal Rumble PPV buyrates:
(1.10) - Bret Hart vs. Taker - RR 96
(1.00) - Diesel vs. Bret Hart - RR 95
(0.90) - Yokozuna vs. Taker - RR 94
(0.70) - HBK vs. Sid - RR 97

WrestleMania PPV buyrates:
(1.68 grossing $5.2 million) - Bret Hart vs. Yokozuna - WM 94
(1.40 grossing $5.1 million) - Diesel vs. HBK - WM 95
(1.20 grossing $4.0 million) - HBK vs. Bret Hart - WM 96
(0.77 grossing $2.5 million) - Taker vs. Sid - WM 97

King of the Ring PPV buyrates:
(0.85) - Piper vs. Lawler - KOTR 94
(0.65 ) - Diesel/Bigelow vs. Sid/Tatanka - KOTR 95
(0.60) - HBK vs. Bulldog - KOTR 96
(0.50) - Taker vs. Farooq - KOTR 97

SummerSlam PPV buyrates:
(1.30) - Taker vs. Taker - SS 94
(0.90) - Diesel vs. Mabel - SS 95
(0.80) - Bret Hart vs. Taker - SS 97
(0.58) - HBK vs. Vader - SS 96

Survivor Series PPV buyrate:
(0.90) - Taker vs. Yokozuna - SS 94
(0.89) - Bret Hart vs. HBK - SS 97
(0.58) - HBK vs. Sid - SS 96
(0.57) - Diesel vs. Bret Hart - SS 95

In Your House PPV buyrates:
(0.83) - Diesel vs. Sid - IYH 1 [14 May 95]
(0.75) - Diesel vs. Bret Hart - IYH 6 [18 Feb 96]
(0.70) - Diesel vs. Sid - IYH 2 [23 July 95]
(0.70) - Diesel/HBK vs. Yokozuna/Bulldog - IYH 3 [24 Sept 95]
(0.65) - Diesel vs. HBK - IYH 7 [28 April 96]
(0.60) - HBK vs. Taker - IYH 18 [5 Oct 97]
(0.59) - Hart Foundation vs. Team USA - IYH 16 [6 July 97]
(0.57) - Austin vs. Taker - IYH 15 [11 May 97]
(0.50) - Bret Hart vs Taker vs Austin vs Vader - IYH 13 [16 Feb 97]
(0.50) - Bret Hart vs. Austin - IYH 14 [20 April 97]
(0.48) - HBK vs. Mankind - IYH 10 [22 Sept 96]
(0.45) - HBK vs. Bulldog - IYH 8 [26 & 28 May 96]
(0.45) - HBK vs. Taker - IYH 17 [7 Sept 97]
(0.44) - HBK vs. Shamrock - IYH 19 [7 Dec 97]
(0.40) - Diesel vs. Bulldog - IYH 4 [22 Oct 95]
(0.40) - Taker vs. Mankind - IYH 11 [20 Oct 96]
(0.37) - Vader/Owen/Bulldog vs. HBK/AJ/Sid - IYH 9 [21 July 96]
(0.35) - Bret Hart vs. Sid - IYH 12 [15 Dec 96]
(0.33) - Bret Hart vs. Bulldog - IYH 5 [17 Dec 95]

Diesel/HBK comparison:
(1.00) RR 95 - (0.70) RR 97 (bigger draw = Diesel)
(1.40) WM 95 - (1.20) WM 96 (bigger draw = Diesel)
(0.83) IYH May 95 - (0.45) IYH May 96 (bigger draw = Diesel)
(0.65) KOTR 95 - (0.60) KOTR 96 (bigger draw = Diesel)
(0.70) IYH July 95 - (0.37) IYH July 96 (bigger draw = Diesel)
(0.90) SS 95 - (0.58) SS 96 (bigger draw = Diesel)
(0.70) IYH Sept 95 - (0.48) IYH Sept 96 (bigger draw = Diesel)
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  #2  
Old 04-07-2015, 02:06 PM
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Well, no wonder because guy almost draw them to bankrupcy when he was face of the company. I like the guy but he wasnt much of a draw. Though, in his defence, he did have good WCW as opponent.
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  #3  
Old 04-07-2015, 03:15 PM
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Of course buy rates can be shown to state any case you like... but is Shawn actually the problem by 1997? You quote WM13 but he wasn't even there... perhaps the buyrate was low because he wasn't? You use IYH as a stick to beat Shawn but that surely shows diminishing returns all the way down. Remember WCW was running Hogan filled PPV's from 1994 onwards and by 1996, in reality time for IYH 8 the NWO was happening... People were buying WCW PPV's over WWE cos the WHOLE show was weak, not just Shawn.

That being said, Shawn didn't "draw" in the traditional sense and that can't be disputed. How much of that was down to him and how much the way WWE has ALWAYS done things is debateable... WWE has a formula which hasn't worked for a LONG time but they doggedly stick to it for the odd one or two who it does work with like Austin and Cena...

They take a hot heel, but he HAS to go face to get the title and then be rammed down our throats. Shawn was one of these and it was counter to EVERYTHING he did well. He was a cocky heel with swagger, exactly the kind of champion WWE needed in 1996, but they insisted on making him a "fake" face with the Boyhood Dream crap... meanwhile his running buddies were getting to be those cool heels in WCW...

The rest of the roster in the main were either newcomers/WCW rejects like Dustin, Austin, Foley, Rocky and Faarooq or cartoonish "cheap" talent from places like Smokey Mountain/antiquity... guys like TL Hopper/Tony Anthony, Sal Sincere, Waylon Mercy and the like...

Once Nash and Hall walked there was a real dearth of talent that could legit draw on the WWF roster... someone like Davey COULD draw, if used right and given a real "shot" at winning but once people realised Shawn wasn't dropping the belt till he decided to vacate it again... it killed the viewers... those buys against Davey, Foley and Vader could have been far higher, Vader especially but it was clear Shawn was "running the show" and people could see that... even Bret was sidelined, when he returned, he was feuding with Austin and it was BETTER than what Shawn was doing as champion. People cared more about Austin v Bret at Survivor Series than Shawn v Sid, so Shawn lost it to try to rebuild it.

Ability wise and potential wise, Shawn was not that bad... but his shitty attitude towards the title and the good of the business, coupled with the lack of real commitment Vince was showing anyone else and what WCW were doing better cost them...

Some elements of fate got in the way... if Pillman hadn't gotten hurt/healed quicker, Shawn would have had a worthy opponent and that would have drawn... Taker being hurt by Mabel in 1995 forced Vince to look at him as a main event player rather than against Monster Of The Month... 2 years later he and Shawn were tearing the house down.

In reality, once Vince knew Nash and Hall were going, putting the belt on Shawn as a face was the worst possible move... Bret summed it up in Wrestling With Shadows... there was something inherently dislike-able about Shawn and it made him a bad face champion then... The proof? As soon as he was let off the chain with DX, he was drawing...

But make no mistake, Vince carries the blame... he was the one being cheap with talent, indulging Shawn over proven commodities like Vader and Ron Simmons and letting his proven talent walk to WCW while picking up their "rejects" and putting them in gladiator costumes... after letting guys like Bigelow also walk too...

Vince deserved bankruptcy, it was only cos he was man enough to say "I'm gonna try EVERYTHING" that he found Attitude... had he just begun that in 1996 and had Shawn as the bad guy to match his offscreen jerkness, license to print money...
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  #4  
Old 04-07-2015, 04:08 PM
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I find this information interesting, and I am unsure as to the motive of the OP, but I personally tire of this conversation whether it regard HBK or Diesel.

WWF all-around awful at this time, with a few high spots and reasons to watch. What HBK and Diesel did accomplish, however, was preventing what appeared to be the Titanic from sinking. HBK has always been an incredible performer, more highly regarded by many in his return and longer-than-expected second run.

Don Mattingly was for many years the face of a storied Yankees franchise that won no championships. Is that Don Mattingly's fault? Or the organization's? Some will say Mattingly. I say it's the organization. Only the org can field a TEAM of people to win. One marquee player isn't enough. Of course, if you know your baseball, my analogy falls apart because some will point to the fact that Donnie Baseball has yet to make the HoF. But you get the point. Also see Dan Marino.
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  #5  
Old 04-07-2015, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeOnVince View Post
I find this information interesting, and I am unsure as to the motive of the OP, but I personally tire of this conversation whether it regard HBK or Diesel.

WWF all-around awful at this time, with a few high spots and reasons to watch. What HBK and Diesel did accomplish, however, was preventing what appeared to be the Titanic from sinking. HBK has always been an incredible performer, more highly regarded by many in his return and longer-than-expected second run.

Don Mattingly was for many years the face of a storied Yankees franchise that won no championships. Is that Don Mattingly's fault? Or the organization's? Some will say Mattingly. I say it's the organization. Only the org can field a TEAM of people to win. One marquee player isn't enough. Of course, if you know your baseball, my analogy falls apart because some will point to the fact that Donnie Baseball has yet to make the HoF. But you get the point. Also see Dan Marino.
To an extent you are right, Steven Gerrard and Liverpool are another example... but the point is he, like Shawn HAD success. but the organisation was choosing to use him incorrectly cos of his "perceived standing" rather than doing the right thing and perhaps moving the captaincy (football equivalent of the title) to another player one or two seasons ago. When that happens the lack of success is tagged to the player regardless and if like last season, Stevie directly causes a mistake that leads to losing said title then it can become all about them despite the fact the organisation is not actually investing in the top talent needed, just like WWF wasn't in the mid 1990's.

Shawn too made those cock-ups during his title reign, getting embroiled in backstage politics, fights with Bret and ultimately refusing to job the title at Mania and hiding behind an injury, to the point a year later Undertaker was in gorilla ready to ensure Shawn "did business" for Austin. Shawn gets away with it because WWE ultimately won the war, cos he "reformed" and was able to have a second career that bettered the first and because the whole company was so bad.

Had WWE failed at that time then Vince would have carried the can, even though he'd have tried to blame Shawn...when the reality was decisions made as far back as 1990, like not letting Rick Rude move up to the World title, not using Steamboat and Flair correctly and panicking into releasing talent like Davey in 1992 ALL led to those problems along with Shawn's failures... If Vince had kept Rude and made him champ, then Shawn as champ around 1996 would have drawn, cos he'd have had Rude to work off of for example.
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  #6  
Old 04-07-2015, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor View Post
To an extent you are right, Steven Gerrard and Liverpool are another example... but the point is he, like Shawn HAD success. but the organisation was choosing to use him incorrectly cos of his "perceived standing" rather than doing the right thing and perhaps moving the captaincy (football equivalent of the title) to another player one or two seasons ago. When that happens the lack of success is tagged to the player regardless and if like last season, Stevie directly causes a mistake that leads to losing said title then it can become all about them despite the fact the organisation is not actually investing in the top talent needed, just like WWF wasn't in the mid 1990's.

Shawn too made those cock-ups during his title reign, getting embroiled in backstage politics, fights with Bret and ultimately refusing to job the title at Mania and hiding behind an injury, to the point a year later Undertaker was in gorilla ready to ensure Shawn "did business" for Austin. Shawn gets away with it because WWE ultimately won the war, cos he "reformed" and was able to have a second career that bettered the first and because the whole company was so bad.

Had WWE failed at that time then Vince would have carried the can, even though he'd have tried to blame Shawn...when the reality was decisions made as far back as 1990, like not letting Rick Rude move up to the World title, not using Steamboat and Flair correctly and panicking into releasing talent like Davey in 1992 ALL led to those problems along with Shawn's failures... If Vince had kept Rude and made him champ, then Shawn as champ around 1996 would have drawn, cos he'd have had Rude to work off of for example.
Well said.

I also want to make clear that by stating that I tire of the conversation, yet chose to participate, that I in no way intended to disparage the OP for posting the info. Good info.
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Old 04-07-2015, 05:11 PM
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I don't think the low buy rates always come down to the champion though, I think during the peak times like the Rock N Wrestling or Attitude eras for example you could have put the belt on anyone and still drew pretty good ppv buy rates as well as the opposite of putting the belt on the most talented during a low period.
The highest Wrestlemania buy rate during that time you mentioned was Wrestlemania 10 but for me the match I remember I was looking forward to most at that event was the HBK vs Razor ladder match which ended up being one of my favourite matches ever which for me personally was an example of it not always being about the champion.
Another example would be the highest bought In Your House event ever was Diesel vs Sid which wouldn't be my choice of the best main event out of all the In Your House events.
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Old 04-07-2015, 05:18 PM
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that opinion doesnt fly, at least with the Rock n Wrestling era, put the title on anyone other than Hogan in the early days and the WWF doesnt draw as well; same for the Attitude era, if you take Austin out of the top spot i doubt that era flys as well as it did, the champion becomes the champion BECAUSE he's thought to be the biggest draw for the company, HBK failed at that
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Old 04-07-2015, 05:30 PM
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Two things:

1. The idea that the champ draws is old and outdated. The face of the company 'maybe'. That person was arguably Bret Hart as much as Michaels during that era. But there are so many other factors that go in to attendance, buy rates, and whatever you want to throw in to the "draw" category that champ is probably not even a top five reason.

2. WWE isn't about to base a GOAT poll that is seen by the public on drawing ability. I realize that the point of wrestling is making money and I realize that WWE knows this too but they aren't going to make selections based on money as a top criteria.
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Old 04-07-2015, 07:23 PM
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Wrestling is not boxing, people come to see the whole show not just one match most times.

But I'll humor the argument. Let's say you are Vince McMahon in 1996 and the HBK experiment isn't working, who do you put the title on?

Take into account WWF lost Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Razor Ramon, Lex Luger and Diesel each guy was pushed to the moon as a top guy and they all left at some point between WWF's dark days of 1993-1997.

All you had other than Shawn was Bret and Undertaker.
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