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  #11  
Old 12-24-2012, 02:56 AM
GameOver GameOver is offline
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Originally Posted by thebarber View Post
I think that after the first three Mania's, Vince needed to do something big, and this included the first time the WWE Championship changed hands. Hogan was never going to pass the torch in 1988 by pinfall to Savage, so the tournament to me was a great way to really elevate Savage. having him beat 4 heels in a row to raise the title was a first in WWE.
I do agree though that alot of the tournament was a no -brainer which way results would go. The rest of the card I am happy to leave alone as feuds had gone for months leading to Mania 4.
If they did not have the tournament, how do they make Mania 4 a massive success in an arena that fit well under 20,000 people.
In regards to Steamboat, he was in the dog house from June 1987 when he asked for time off for the birth of his child. He was supposed to drop the title immediately to Butch Reed, nut he know showed the tv taping, so the decision was made to pop the belt on Honkytonk Man. Steamboat did return to be a sole survivor at the initial Survivor Series and went over Rick Rude at the first Royal Rumble so having him get buried to Valentine, the only reason that can be deduced is they didnt want face vs face in the tourney, and further more, they didnt want them to steal the show when the whole build up was for the Savage vs DiBiase match with Hulk's assistance. Knowing the politics, Hogan probably suggested Valentine going over Steamboat was the way to go.
Butch Reed was at the taping HTM won the title so why wasn't the title put on him instead? he was in the background after the match celebrating with Honky that rumor is partially bullshit, maybe the real reason was he was meant to win b4 that night but no showed other TV tapings so they threw in the towel on him and gave it to Honky which also set up a long lasting storyline by accident with Honky's reign being the longest for decades to come. and Ricky was not sole survivor at the initial survivor series, Randy Savage, Jake the Snake and Ricky Steamboat won so he was part of 3 winners..

the rest of your statement is partially true, Steamboat was in the doghouse for wanting time off so soon after his WrestleMania III win, he reckons it was cause they upstaged Hogan vs Andre but Savage was in that match too and he got a push as a result of it. anyway he retired for a while after WrestleMania 4 so it was a moot point.

Last edited by GameOver : 12-24-2012 at 02:59 AM.
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  #12  
Old 12-24-2012, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Brain View Post
Even at eight years old I knew Don Muraco vs. Dino Bravo was pointless.
To this point you are right ... I wasn't a wrestling fan yet at the time but I guess people knew that these two weren't going to be Champs. I guess the point of the tournament format is the journey of how the "favorites" will get there. I guess that gives the format intrigue.

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Originally Posted by thebarber View Post
I think that after the first three Mania's, Vince needed to do something big, and this included the first time the WWE Championship changed hands. Hogan was never going to pass the torch in 1988 by pinfall to Savage, so the tournament to me was a great way to really elevate Savage. having him beat 4 heels in a row to raise the title was a first in WWE.
I think the original plan was to have Debiase win the title. I read from an article by Savage himself that he was supposed to win the IC Title but Honky Tonk Man didn't want to drop the belt to Savage at WM5 ( I am not sure why) so they decided to give Savage the world title instead. I am guessing the reason why the decided to give the title to Savage over Debiase is because Savage winning the IC Title is supposed to be a consolation prize to the fans since the heel was supposed to win the World Title. Of course that's my personal speculation.

Last edited by shooter_mcgavin : 12-24-2012 at 03:19 AM.
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  #13  
Old 12-24-2012, 04:19 AM
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I would have liked to see Ted Dibiase run with the title. What I would have done instead of having Andre hand him the title was having Ted win it in a fluke fashion similar to the poke of doom but not that bad. Then the WWF Cameras would have caught Ted handing Andre a briefcase before the match.

Then we could have shown that Dibiase pulled $5 Million out of his bank account and the next day Andre deposited $5 Million.

As for the Tourny at WM4... I think it really put Savage over...
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  #14  
Old 12-24-2012, 05:39 AM
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I have mixed feelings for the tournament at Wrestlemania 4. In hindsight it seems like it was a good method of putting over Savage, which is a plus. But overall it made Mania pretty lackluster match quality wise. This was before my time so I only watched an old version of it a few years ago, so perhaps the thrill was lost on me, but none of the matches were particularly good and a lot of things could of been done better. Like you mentioned Savage vs Steamboat 2 could of been very good but they went against that and perhaps giving Hogan v Andre some proper time to really promote their rivalry by having an all out brawl for 10-15 minutes even after they're both disqualified then maybe that could of been good. So overall no Wrestlemania IV did not need the tournament, but the end result of Savage being victorious certainly justified the tournament setup
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  #15  
Old 12-24-2012, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Brain View Post
Hereís my WM4 card if they decided not to do the tournament. Iíll list the matches in the order I think they would have gone on.

The Rougeau Brothers vs. The Hart Foundation

A solid tag match to open the show. The Rougeau Brothers are the faces and the Harts are heels. I always thought Bretís face turn at WM4 was a little unusual since it didnít involve Neidhart or Jimmy Hart at all. After WM 4 The Harts started having some problems with Jimmy but I donít remember any explanation. I think a miscommunication here causes an upset win for the Rougeau Brothers and the seeds are planted for a Hart Foundation face turn but it doesnít happen yet.

Ken Patera vs. Dino Bravo

Bravo just set the bench press record a couple months earlier and was getting a push as a powerhouse wrestler who hated America. Ken Patera was a US Olympic power lifter. Pretty simple. Bravo wins as he is on the way up and Patera is on the way down.

Ricky Steamboat vs. Rick Rude

These two had a minor feud in early 1988 and wrestled against each other on the house show tour. This could have easily gone to mania. Rude would have gotten the win as he was a hot new mid card heel and Steamboat was out of the WWF after mania.

Don Muraco & Bam Bam Bigelow vs. Butch Reed & One Man Gang

In late 1987 Reed and Gang stopped Superstar Billy Grahamís comeback with an attack that officially ended his in ring career. Muraco tried to save Graham which led to Graham becoming Muracoís manager. Bigelow was popular and would have been a good partner for Muraco to try to neutralize the size of the Gang.

Jake Roberts vs. Greg Valentine

Not every match needed a feud or personal storyline during the early years of mania. Sometimes just putting two guys that have a similar place on the card together works. Thatís what happens here.

Ultimate Warrior vs. Hercules

These two had a feud going and actually wrestled each other at the real WM4 so this stays as is.

Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant (Steel Cage Match)

They had already wrestled each other twice by WM4 so I see this being the blowoff. The cage is there to give the match an extra boost since weíve seen this match before. Cage matches were still a big deal so this would have created enough excitement to overcome a WrestleMania repeat. Iíll get into a bit more detail later. Hogan wins.

Junk Yard Dog vs. Bad News Brown

A bit of a calm down match after one of the main events. By 1988 JYD had fallen down the card so he would be used here to put over the newcomer.

Honky Tonk Man vs. Brutus Beefcake (IC Title)

Stays as is from the real card.

British Bulldogs & Koko B. Ware vs. Islanders & Bobby Heenan

Stays as is from the real card.

Strike Force vs. Demolition (Tag Titles)

Stays as is from the real card.

Jim Duggan vs. Ron Bass

See Roberts vs. Valentine. Calm down match before the main event.

Ted Dibiase vs. Randy Savage (World Title)

Hereís my dilemma. Is Randy Savage challenging Ted Dibiase for the title a big enough match to main event WrestleMania? Youíre probably thinking Ďof course it is, it really happened.í It did really happen but it was not announced that way and wasnít expected to sell the show. The tournament sold the show and Savage and Dibiase happened to be the finals. What if it was announced like a regular card? Is Savage vs. Dibiase good enough? I think it could have been if Hogan vs. Andre in the cage was also used to sell the show. Hereís the setup.

Everything goes down as it did up to the Main Event with Andre surrendering the title to Dibiase. Instead of Dibiase being stripped, he is allowed to keep the title. Hogan naturally wants a rematch for the title but since the guy that beat him isnít champion anymore Hogan needs to get back in line for a title shot. The next SNME features a 20 man battle royal with the winner getting the title shot at mania. Hogan gets in the battle royal and Dibiase makes sure Andre is in there to eliminate Hogan. Dibiase watches from ringside and distracts Hogan allowing Andre to sneak up from behind and eliminate him. It comes down to Andre and Savage. Dibiase wants Andre to win so he can have an easy match at mania by paying Andre off. Savage is overmatched considering itís a battle royal. Hogan returns to the ring to distract Andre and help Savage eliminate him. Dibiase is furious as Hogan and Andre fight on the outside and setup their mania cage match. Savage gets the title shot at mania and beats Dibiase with the same finish of the actual show but in a much better match since it would likely get more time and be Savageís only match of the night.

This may not be the best card in the world but I think it makes for a bit of a better show than the tournament.
Your answer to your question was answered in your paragraph about Savage and Teds match. Savage probably would NOT have been big enough to even carry the Main Event at WM5 if he didn't have WM4.

I think Vince and company did the right thing with the tournament because it allowed them to really put Savage on the map and set up the ground work for the Mega Powers exploding. The tournment win by Savage was a great way to build a secondary star to Hogan and set up like I stated a future Mania main event. If they went the traditional route, Savage isn't as big as he became in my opinion.

At the sametime I may be bias because unlike you I really ENJOYED WM4. To this day it is still my FAVORITE WM. I was 8 years old at the time BUT I say I may have been bias because Savage was ALWAYS my favorite wrestler. Even before he won the title I liked him more than Hogan and Warrior. So I guess it depends on the wrestling fan, to me the tournament was great and unique and is still the ONLY WM that didn't go your traditional road.
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  #16  
Old 12-24-2012, 12:51 PM
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I'm not going to disagree that the Tourney could have been done better, the problem they had was that most of the new "top guys" were new and not involved in WMIII.

DiBiase, Bam Bam, Rude, Duggan and One Man Gang were not in matches at the previous years show so using so many of them in the tourney was probably a mistake. It would be like a title tourney at this years Mania having The Shield, Cesaro, Big E. and Brad Maddox as half the bracket. Several guys who could have had a legit part in the tourney were involved in the Battle Royal. Bret Hart would have been a worthy opponent for a Ted DiBiase or Rick Rude.

The other thing they could have done was not have Hogan or Andre involved in it. That their rivalry had gone past the title and neither man was allowed to participate would have added a spin to the tournament that made it unique, we all kind of worked out neither would win but having it guaranteed from the start would have guaranteed interest.


If you were going without the Tourney, then I think Hogan Andre 2 would have worked in the cage, but without Andre's title win prior. Have Andre's career on the line if he can't win the title and DiBiase's attempted buying takes place right after he wins. Andre is appalled and swats DiBiase, leading to Virgil, OMG or Bundy and most of the heels attacking him and "injuring him" and Savage making the save.

Because of the controversy, Jack Tunney announces a new "event" called Summerslam, where the title controversy would be resolved with a one night "round robin" between Hogan, DiBiase, Savage and Honky Tonk Man (as the IC champ and top contender by rule)

Over the course of the night, Honky takes the pay off from DiBiase, shocks Hogan with a cheap DQ win but loses to Savage by someone "messing with him" and he loses it and challenges them, Warrior - Win as really happened.

Savage comes out on top after drawing with Hogan and DiBiase losing when Andre returns seeking vengence for his injury. After the match and Savage holding the title, he is attacked by his new foe.... Hulk Hogan who is furious at how events have turned out!
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  #17  
Old 12-24-2012, 03:57 PM
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To simply answer the question, yes, I feel that WrestleMania IV needed the tournament. While some will recall that the first WWF PPV "The Wrestling Classic" featured a 16-man tournament, for many, this was the first ever tournament that they saw for pro wrestling and certainly the first for the Championship.

While putting together my own card, I followed three rules:

1: I wanted to have a Tournament for the WWF Championship.
2: I wanted to keep the Invitational Battle Royal to kick off the show.
3: I wanted to make sure that everyone who was on the actual card was on the show.

Now, I do think, in hindsight, that 14 wrestlers was too many to have. So, my solution would be an 8-man tournament Here's my first round:

Ricky Steamboat vs Rick Rude
Randy Savage vs Greg Valentine
Ted DiBiase vs Jim Duggan
Hulk Hogan vs Andre The Giant

I originally planned for a 15 man battle royal to kick the show off, instead of a 20 man:

Bad News Brown
George Steele
Harley Race
Hillbilly Jim
Koko B. Ware
Leaping Lanny Poffo
Junkyard Dog
Ron Bass
Sika
The Bolsheviks (Nikolai Volkoff and Boris Zhukov)
The Killer Bees (B. Brian Blair and Jim Brunzell)
The Young Stallions (Paul Roma and Jim Powers)

If you want 20, add the following 5:

Outback Jack
The Conquistadors
Sam Houston
Danny Davis

I have three "new matches" that I liked from The Brain's card:

Bravo/Patera
Reed & Gang/Muraco & Bam Bam
The Hart Foundation/The Rougeau Brothers

With a 15 man battle royal, I make the Hart/Rougeau match a 6 man, adding Danny Davis to the Harts and Sam Houston to the Rougeaus. Perhaps Davis costs them the match, leading to the Harts face turn. Could even plan the seeds for the Rougeaus aligning with Jimmy Hart, as they would later in the summer.

These matches stay the same:

Warrior/Hercules
Beefcake/Honky
Demolition/Strike Force

A slight change to the six man match:

Islanders & Heenan vs Bulldogs & Snake

I really didn't like Koko with the Bulldogs. Just a personal thing. If Jake The snake wasn't in the Tournament, I have him with in the Bulldogs match, moving Koko to the Battle Royal. Not too long after WrestleMania, Jake would go on to feud with Rick Rude, who was managed by Heenan, so maybe something there to make Jake want to be in the match against Heenan.

This means 14 matches, where the original card had 16 matches... This gives some extra time for some of the other matches to expand a bit and keep the show at it's original length.

Personally, I would have added one more match, The Jumping Bomb Angels vs The Glamour Girls for the Women's Tag Titles. A rematch from the Royal Rumble. The Glamour Girls won the belts back in June of 88, so they could have either won here, or the Angels could have retained, continuing the feud.

The order I would have had the matches and the winners:

Battle Royal: Bad News Brown wins, eliminating JYD last
Dino Bravo over Ken Patera
Jumping Bomb Angels over Glamour Girls
Tournament Round 1: Steamboat, Savage and DiBiase advance
Rougeau Brothers (& Sam Houston) over Hart Foundation (& Danny Davis)
Warrior over Hercules
Brutus Beefcake over Honky Tonk by DQ
Tournament Round 2: Savage over Steamboat, DiBiase with a Bye
Muraco & Bam Bam over Reed & Gang
Islanders & Heenan over Bulldogs & Snake
Demolition over Strike Force
Tournament Finals: Savage over DiBiase

If you didn't want a face vs face tournament match, or feel that Steamboat was made to lose as "punishment," you could have Rude beat Steamboat, setting up Savage/Rude in round 2, or flip Rude and Valentine, have Valentine beat Steamboat in Rd.1, while having Savage beat Rude, if you feel Valentine would have been a better Rd. 2 opponent than Rude at the time.

DiBiase still gets his bye into the finals, making Savage's underdog run all the more impressive, while cutting a match from each of the finalists, giving them more time for the Final match. This also eliminates a lot of the guys who "didn't have a chance."

-Bill

Last edited by BLeonard : 12-24-2012 at 04:00 PM.
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  #18  
Old 12-24-2012, 05:12 PM
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Hogan losing the title at Wrestlemania would have been bad for business. The tournament was the best way to get the belt on someone new and it set up a match that people really wanted to see for the following year. It was also the first time they did a single night tournament on ppv, so it was something different. If they opted against the tournament it would have either been Hogan vs Andre II for the belt or Hogan vs Dibiase for the belt. Both would have been fine main events, but I happen to be a fan of the way things went down.
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:27 PM
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Brain had a really good card. The only thing is that if the WWF had gone that route, they would have had Savage vs. DiBiase earlier in the card and made Hogan vs. Andre II the closing match, as Hogan & Andre were MUCH bigger names than Savage and DiBiase.

Of course, they could have also gone with their original plans, which would have had Hogan vs. DiBiase and Savage challenging the Honky Tonk Man for the I-C title. As some of you know, the original plan for WM 4 was for DiBiase to win the tournament, with Savage defeating HTM to become I-C champ. HTM balked at losing the title (he was in negotiations to go to WCW and thought having the title gave him bargaining power), so they reworked the tournament so Savage would win to keep him happy.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:11 PM
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WM4 I thought was a good concept. There were alot of filler matches but all WM in the early days had a ton of matches. It was nice back then that stories had long build ups and the whole hogan savage stuff from mania 4 to 5 was quality stuff
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