WWE & TNA Forum
Wrestling News
Loading...


Go Back   WrestleZone Forums > The WrestleZone Forum Archives > Non-Wrestling Archives > Sports Debater's League
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Arcade vBookie

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-21-2011, 04:45 PM
klunderbunker's Avatar
klunderbunker klunderbunker is online now
More Comfortable with the Seesawing
Wrestlezone Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lexington, Kentucky
Posts: 17,770
klunderbunker is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...klunderbunker is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...klunderbunker is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...klunderbunker is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...klunderbunker is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...klunderbunker is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...klunderbunker is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...klunderbunker is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...klunderbunker is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...klunderbunker is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...klunderbunker is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...
Default Finals: Topic #1 - Greatest Game

Are Big Sexy, LSN80 and hatehabsforever. The scores you have are completely wiped away so everyone starts the finals with a clean slate. There will be three topics and each person will lead off one time each. The same scoring system will be in effect as before. As usual, four days per topic so the deadline for this is Friday.

Leading off is LSN80.

Topic:What is the greatest game ever played? It can be pro or college but must be a game that was available to the masses. In other words, not some game in Division III that you were at or something like that. It can be regular season or post season or championship etc. Defend your arguments and critique others as always.

Go.
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by klunderbunker
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by klunderbunker
I am
Quote:
Originally Posted by klunderbunker
in fact
Quote:
Originally Posted by klunderbunker
better than you.
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-22-2011, 02:32 AM
LSN80's Avatar
LSN80 LSN80 is offline
Registered User
United States Champion
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Age: 35
Posts: 2,680
LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...
Default

Open:

Every sport has it's greatest game. The three hours in time that athletes within each sport look at and one day hope to be mentioned in the same breath as the players who played in said game. More then any other, baseball fans have a plethora of games to point at. Many might look at Game 6 of the 1975 World Series between Boston and Cincinatti. In a 12-inning affair, Boston produced a game tying home run in the bottom on the 8th, Cincinatti pitched out of a no-out, bases loaded jam in the bottom of the ninth, and finally, Carlton Fisk hit a game winning home run in the bottom of the 12th. College basketball fans can point to the incredible six overtime game between Syracuse and Connecticut in the 2009 Big East Tournament at the world's most famous arena, Madison Square Garden. NBA fans can point to Game 5 of the NBA Finals, a triple overtime affair between Boston and Phoenix that saw Boston winning their 13th Championship, and the final of their era of dominance. NFL fans can point to the 1958 NFL championship game between Baltimore and the New York Giants, the first NFL game to go to overtime and the first NFL game broadcast across North America. While arguments can be made for all, there is no doubt that the greatest game of all time was the 1980 Olympic Semi-Final between the United States and Russia, simply known as the Miracle on Ice. The United States improbably defeated the Soviet Union 4-3 to advance to the Gold Medal game against Finland, where they took home the Gold Medal. This game was the greatest of all time for many reasons.

Nationalism:


To say this was a bad time for the United States would be a large understatement. Tension during the Cold War was at an all time high, there was still a significant number of American hostages in Iran, Jimmy Carter's popularity had eroded and the country had lost faith in him, and unemployment rates and poverty were at their highest since the Great Depression. What does this have to do with sports, or with the Miracle on Ice, you ask? Because few things have the ability to lift people's spirits like sports. Especially when said opponent was your most hated rival off the ice as well.The Soviet and American teams were natural rivals due to the aforementioned Cold War. President Jimmy Carter was at the time considering a U.S. boycott of the 1980 Summer Olympics, to be held in Moscow, in protest of the December 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. He eventually decided in favor of the boycott, which intensified the rivalry between the two nations. The "Evil Empire" Russians were heavy favorites, but the Herb Brooks lead American team gave the entire nation something to cheer for and be proud of when they came back from deficits of 1-0, 2-1, and 3-2 to win the semifinal game on their way to winning the Gold Medal. Perhaps more importantly, the victory signaled the start of a new era for a nation desperate for signs of life. The 1980 US mens hockey team, specifically with their victory over Russia, gave their country just that. No single athletic game was perhaps more important to lifting a nation's fortunes.

Underdogs:


There's no greater story in sports then the underdog overcoming the odds and beating the better team. It's something that we who love sports root for. We love pulling for the longshot, for the dark horse. And with certainty, there's been no greater underdog story in the history of sports then the United States Hockey team of 1980. While the US was comprised of mostly teenaged amateurs who had barely been together for a few months, the Soviets were easily the most polished, professional and seemingly unbeatable team in the history of international hockey.

To say that the Soviet Union came in to the Olympic Games the favorite would also be a large understatement. The Soviets had crushed the NHL All Stars 6–0 to win the yearly Challenge Cup, and had gone 5-3-1 against NHL teams in exhibition games. The Soviets had won the previous 4 Gold Medals, and had gone 5-0 in their division games headed into the matchup, outscoring their opponents 51-11.

The underdog story is even more incredible when you factor in that the same two teams had played only a week earlier in an exhibition match at Madison Square Garden. The Soviet Union had embarrassed the Americans on the way to a 10-3 victory. When the United States tied Sweden 2-2 with 27 seconds left in it's first matchup to earn a draw and stunned heavily favored Czechoslovokia 7-3 in the quarterfinals, it set the stage for the second embarrassment of the Russians that never came. Oh, yeah, and the U.S. went on to defeat Finland for the gold in the finals. Hollywood couldn't have written a better story then this one.

The Game:

Just because a game is filled with national pride and features an amazing underdog win doesn't soley guarantee that a great contest was had. In the case of the Soviets and the American's a great game is exactly what we got.

As they had done for most of the Olympics, the US fell behind early on a deflected slap shot by Vladimir Krutov in front of US netminder Jim Craig. The US tied it on a wrist shot from Buzz Schneider, but the Soviets quickly regained the lead on a soft backhander by future defector and NHL player Sergei Makarov. It appeared the Soviets would take the 2-1 lead to the first intermission, but the US team again proved resilient by tying the game at 2-2 with less then a minute to play in the period. Defenseman Dave Christian fired a slap shot on Soviet goalie Vladislav Tretiak from 100 feet away. The Soviet goalie saved the shot but failed to corral the rebound. The puck which bounced out to the right circle in front of him, where forward Mark Johnson sliced between both two defensemen, snatched the puck, and wristed it past a diving Tretiak to tie the score with one second left in the period. The surprised and shaken Soviets made a goalie change then and there, replacing Tretiak with backup Vladimir Myshkin.

The Soviets were back to their dominating play in the second period, with Center Alexander Meltsev putting them back in front of the US 3-2
on a snap shot on the power play halfway through the period. This turned out to be the only scoring of the period, and the US was only able to muster 2 shots on goal the entire period. Despite only leadind by a goal, the Soviets appeared in firm control after outshooting the US 12-2 in the second period.

The Soviets took a rare penalty a third of the way through the period, but the US failed to capitilize. Soviet goalie Vladimir Myshkin stopped defenseman Dave Ramsey's slap shot, but captain and center Mike Eruzione fired the rebound wide. The Soviets cleared the puck, but Dave Silk advanced the puck deep into the Soviet zone when he was knocked to the ice by defensemen Valeri Vasliev. The puck slid to Mark Johnson, who fired a wrist shot that slid through Myshkin's five hole, tying the game at 3-3 with 11 minutes to play, and just as the power play was ending. Just one minute later, forward Mark Pavelich found an undefended Mike Eruzione in the high left slot. Eruzione fired a wirst shot that was screened by Soviet defensemen Valeri Pervukhin, and beat Myshkin glove side. With exactly 10 minutes left, the US lead the Soviets 4-3 with exactly ten minutes to go in the 3rd period. The Soviets didn't go quietly, and peppered US goalie Jim Craig with 11 shots in the final ten minutes. Instead of going into a defensive shell, US coach Herb Brooks urged the team to keep taking the play to the Soviets offensively, which they did, almost scoring again themselves. The Soviets took the play to the Americans in the final minutes, and the final minute was as high drama as any professional game Ive ever experienced.

Click for Spoiler:

The final minute of the US/Russia 1980 classic.


The Soviets continued to pressure the United states, but as you can see above, the US was able to control the puck, clear it from their zone as the seconds ticked away, prompting Al Michales to enter the most iconic sports phrase of all time in "Do you Believe in Miracles? Yes!" It was fitting that the greatest game ever played was finished with the most iconic quote in sports history.

Off the Ice Achievements:

Don't just take my word for it. ESPN named it the Greatest Sports Moment of All Time. The victory was also voted the Greatest Sports Moment of the 20th century by Sports Illustrated. The team was named the Associated Press and Sports Illustrated's Athletes of the Year in 1980. Further, how many games have spawned two movies and an HBO documentary? Miracle on Ice was a 1981 TV movie, and Miracle starring Kurt Russell was released in theatres worldwide in 2004. The documentary Do you believe in Miracles? was aired on HBO in 2001. Sports figures such as Muhammed Ali and Rudy have had movies made about them, but having one movie, let alone two, made about an actual gameis unprecedented. It's also further proof that this was the greatest game of all time.

Conclusion:

Ive shown throughout this post the things that make this game the greatest game ever played. No one game has impacted a country's nationalism as this one did. There was perhaps no greater underdog in the history of sports play, increasing the excitement factor. It was certainly one of the most exciting games of all time, and well-played also. It's accolades and subsequent reliving over and over through TV and film show it's importance and significance. More importantly, as Ive shown, these things attest that on February 22nd, 1980, the United States and the USSR played the greatest game of all-time, the Miracle on Ice.
__________________
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-22-2011, 01:38 PM
Big Sexy's Avatar
Big Sexy Big Sexy is offline
Deadly Rap Cannibal
King of the Ring
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Detroit
Age: 28
Posts: 3,212
Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...
Default

Open

When it comes to the topic of greatest game there are many games throughout history that can be debated for but there is really only one that has all the qualities to truly hold the title. That games is the 1958 NFL Championship Game between the Baltimore Colts and the New York Giants which, naturally, has widely become known as "The Greatest Game Ever Played."

The Stage

To truly be known as the greatest game it is important that it is being played on a big stage. What bigger stage then the NFL Championship game at Yankee Stadium in New York? This was the game that decided who the best team in the NFL was and it happened in front of 64,185 fans in attendance and an estimated 45 million people watching at home.

The Teams

The Giants and Colts combined to have 17 Hall of Famers with their organizations during this game. That includes 12 players like Johnny Unitas, Raymond Berry, Art Donovan, Frank Gifford, Don Maynard, and Sam Huff. It also included 3 coaches like Colts head coach Weeb Ewbank, Giants O Coordinator Vince Lombardi, and Giants D Coordinator Tom Landry. Two administrators within the Giants Organization round out the 17. Some of the greatest players and coaches of all time were involved in this game.

The Game

The game was highly competitive. A Pat Summerall field goal put the Giants up 3-0 after the first quarter. Then in the second the Colts turned the momentum around by forcing two Frank Gifford fumbles and turning those turnovers into a couple touchdowns on the offensive end. This gave the Colts a 14-3 lead at the half. Baltimore had a chance to put the game away early in the third quarter. They drove all the way to the Giants 1 yard line but were unable to punch the ball into the end zone and turned the ball over on downs. The Giants took advantage and went 95 yards in 4 plays including a huge 86 yard pass play from Charlie Conerly to Kyle Rote. That pass led to a 1 yard td run and pulled the Giants to within four, 14-10. The Giants took the lead early in the fourth after a Frank Gifford td catch and led 17-14. With just about 2 minutes left in the game the Colts took over at their own 14 yard line and Johnny Unitas led one of the most famous drives in NFL history. He took it all the way to the Giants 13 yard line where the Colts kicked a 20 yard field goal to tie the game at 17 with seven seconds left. While the overtime rule was in effect most players had never heard of it and didn't know what was going to happen. There was a pre season game a few years prior that had been decided in overtime but this was the first game of any significance to go into OT. The Giants received the ball in overtime but were forced to punt. Johnny Unitas then led another tremendous drive taking the Colts 80 yards on 13 plays and Alan Ameche scored on a 1 yard td run to end the game 23-17. The Colts had defeated the Giants in what would be known as the "Greatest Game Ever Played."

History

This was one of the most historic games in NFL history. With the game being broadcast on NBC this was one of the main reasons the NFL soared in popularity and is now the number one sport in the US. A couple years after this game the AFL was formed and eventually the merger between the NFL and AFL brought the NFL to even greater heights, but it all started with this game. It's historic for many other reasons as well. Not only was it the first NFL game of any significance to go into overtime, it is still to this day the only NFL Championship game that has ever needed an overtime session. Another historic thing about this game was the two minute drive led by Johnny Unitas. Before this drive the phrase "Two Minute Drill" didn't exist. Unitas became famous for this drive and many like it and the "Two Minute Drill" phrase is one that is still used on a regular basis to this day. In 2008 ESPN made a two hour documentary on the game which included interviews from players in the game and restored footage of the game with color.

Conclusion

When it comes to the greatest game ever there is only one choice that has it all and that is the 1958 NFL Championship Game. Other games may have been better moments like the Miracle on Ice or may have had slightly better finishes like the Christian Laettner buzzer beater as Duke defeated Kentucky in the elite eight of the 1992 NCAA Tournament, but no game has all the qualities necessary to be better then the "Greatest Game Ever Played" between the Colts and Giants.
__________________

Last edited by Big Sexy : 02-22-2011 at 01:41 PM.
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-22-2011, 10:48 PM
hatehabsforever's Avatar
hatehabsforever hatehabsforever is offline
Moderator
Mr. Money in the Bank
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Newfoundland and Labrador
Posts: 2,064
hatehabsforever is getting phone calls from TNA...hatehabsforever is getting phone calls from TNA...hatehabsforever is getting phone calls from TNA...hatehabsforever is getting phone calls from TNA...hatehabsforever is getting phone calls from TNA...hatehabsforever is getting phone calls from TNA...hatehabsforever is getting phone calls from TNA...hatehabsforever is getting phone calls from TNA...hatehabsforever is getting phone calls from TNA...hatehabsforever is getting phone calls from TNA...hatehabsforever is getting phone calls from TNA...
Default

First of all, let me start off by congratulating both Big Sexy and LSN80 for making it into the Finals of the Sports Debaters League. Both of these guys have participated extremely well through all eleven of the preliminary rounds, and if their opening posts in the Finals are any indication, I expect this level of quality to continue until the end and the determination of a winner. I wish them both the best of luck.

As my fellow finalists have both stated, there are a number of factors to consider when assessing what anyone feels should be considered the greatest game of all time. We need to look at the quality of the game itself, as well as the pedigree of it's participants. Any extraneous circumstances surrounding the game which may be considered relevant need to be considered. One thing which I feel is really important in determining the greatest game of all time is the context in which the game was played. You need to address the relevance of the game relative to its audience. What I mean by this is simple. Some consideration must be given to where the game was played, for whom, and the impact it had upon a particular audience. For example, if you ask an American sports fan the question, they may select an NBA game. Ask the same question to a Brazilian, or a European, and you will get a totally different perspective. Someone from Italy, for example, may be totally disinterested in the NBA, and may select a World Cup game in football. Thought must be given to the impact of the NBA game on the American fan, relative to the impact of the soccer game on the Italian. I will elaborate more on this below.

To be consistent with my earlier perspectives, I need only to look to the previous round of this debate to select my answer. My choice for the greatest game of all time is again, the eighth and deciding game of the Summit Series between Canada and the Soviet Union in the fall of 1972.

Nationalistic pride was in full force in this one. The ultimate battle of "us versus them," which in today's world, especially in hockey, would be nearly impossible to replicate. 38 years ago, we had a battle between a Canadian squad of NHLers, versus the Communist squad of hockey players from the Soviet Union. The Cold War was in full effect, eight years earlier than the Miracle on Ice. In terms of the political and social aspect of this time, the sentiments of the Canadian population regarding the Soviet Union largely echoed that of our neighbors to our immediate south. In this regard, Canada and the United States are quite comparable. The animosity, the apprehension, the hostility toward the Soviet Union was every bit as real for Canadians, and Canadian sports fans, as it was for our American counterparts.

This game was extremely significant for the players, the coaches, and the fans of the era. This is evidenced by the magnitude of this series as it is still perceived today, nearly four decades later. At this time, it cannot be disputed that the NHL was dominated by Canadian players. A simple look at the numbers and the names would verify this fact. Unlike today, with the modern day NHL being represented significantly by Canadians, Americans, Russians, Swedes, Czechs, Finns and others, this was not the case in 1972. The NHL was top heavy with Canadians, and we were extremely proud of this fact. In contrast, our opponents were relatively unknown to us. Even though they were basically professional hockey players in their own country who maintained amateur status by skullduggery, we didn't really appreciate their skill level, their conditioning, their stamina, their mental toughness, and their cohesiveness until it was nearly too late. The expectation was that Canada would handle the Soviets with relative ease, and that this would be yet another feather in the cap of the Canadian hockey dominance of the time. Canadians wanted it. They expected it. They demanded it. And if it hadn't resulted in success, it would have been devastating to all parties involved.

Some would say the fact that a team is comprised of underdogs makes their eventual success, such as with the Miracle on Ice, even greater. I disagree. It could be argued that the Americans who participated in the Olympics against the Soviet Union in 1980 did so with little pressure on them. Let's face it. Of the four major sports played in North America, namely football, baseball, basketball, and hockey, hockey is seen by the majority of Americans as the least significant of them, a distant fourth amongst most American sports fans, especially the more casual ones. No one expected the Americans to be able to compete with the Soviets. Therefore, if they had lost, no one would have really cared. The sentiment would likely have been, "oh well, it's only hockey anyway, it's not like it's something that really matters like football or basketball.". My fellow debaters clearly do not fall into this mind set, but I would generalize the American sports fan as feeling this lower sense of significance toward hockey. I would suggest that the American team entered the semifinal Miracle on Ice with low expectations, of themselves and from their country, and as such, had far less pressure, far less drama, and far less to lose.

In stark contrast, the typical Canadian hockey fan of this time was far more passionate about the game. Hockey was not just a game, it was our game. It was like a religion, and as such, nationalistic sentiments and fanaticism were rampant. The pressure on this team was intense. When game eighth was played, the country largely ground to a halt. Schools, businesses, everyone stopped and watched, focused on their television sets. Ken Dryden, when interviewed subsequently, that his sentiments between the second and third periods of this game were that he knew that if they lost, he would be the most hated man in Canada. And he was right. Playing under such scrutiny, such pressure, such intense expectations, and ultimately prevailing, that far and away exceeds success as an underdog.

Remember that Canada was expected to dominate this series, and when they lost game 1 in Montreal, won game 2 in Toronto, tied game three in Winnipeg, and lost their final game on home ice in Vancouver, complete with getting booed off the ice by their rabid and unrelenting fans who would not be appeased by anything other than complete success, pressure upon these guys was more intense than ever, as seen by the impassioned Esposito speech after game four.

If this wasn't enough pressure, the last four games would be played in the hostile world of Communist Soviet Union in the midst of the Cold War. A loss in game five cranked the pressure up even more. Now Canada had to win three games in succession under the most difficult of circumstances, knowing that if they were unable to come through, people back home would be disgusted and devastated. Two tight victories by the Canadian squad in games 6 and 7 evened things up, but even still, at 3-3-1 and trailing in goal differential, only a Canadian victory would do in the final showdown.

Game eight was truly remarkable. Despite the momentum produced by their last two victories, the game was tied at two after the first period, but Canada trailed 5-3 at the second intermission. They managed to tie it up in the third stanza, setting up the drama which is near and dear to the hearts Of Canadians to this day. When Paul Henderson shoveled the rebound from Phil Esposito behind Tretiak with only 34 seconds remaining, scoring the goal heard around the world, the result of the greatest game ever played was determined. It was a moment that, when looked at though the eyes of the Canadian fan from our perspective, has to be seen as the greatest game of all time.

I am unimpressed with the accolades and the awards heaped upon the Miracle on Ice as these are purely from the American perspective. Movies were made about the Summit Series as well, it's just that they didn't have the marketing machine as only the United States can offer to bring them to the collective conscious of the casual fan. Without such movies, I maintain that a lot of the American population would barely even be aware of the Miracle on Ice, and even for those who became aware, they in general cared far less about it (debaters here aside) than the typical Canuck.

As I said earlier, it is important to keep things in perspective, in context, when assessing the greatest game of all time. What did the final game of the Summit Series mean to the Canadians who lived and breathed it, relative to what did the Miracle on Ice mean to the Americans who watched that? I contend that the Summit Series, especially the final and deciding game, meant far more to the nation of Canada, far more to the game of hockey and it's evolution into the game it has become today, than any other game has meant to any other group, in relative terms. And this is why the eighth game of the Summit Series, with the dramatic late game heroics of the Canadians in September, 1972, has to seen as the greatest game of all time. Certainly greater than a simple championship game in a professional football league. And greater than the famous and significant Miracle on Ice.
__________________

Last edited by hatehabsforever : 02-22-2011 at 11:04 PM.
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-22-2011, 11:59 PM
Big Sexy's Avatar
Big Sexy Big Sexy is offline
Deadly Rap Cannibal
King of the Ring
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Detroit
Age: 28
Posts: 3,212
Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatehabsforever View Post
Certainly greater than a simple championship game in a professional football league.
A simple championship game? This was the game that started the popularity growth in the NFL and is one of the reasons the NFL is currently the most popular league in the US and it isn't even close. 45 million people watched this game on NBC and they saw the first ever significant overtime game in the league's history. They also saw, to this day, the only NFL championship game that has ever gone into overtime. They saw one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time in Johnny Unitas lead two of the most historic drives in NFL history and the whole Two Minute Drill phrase started because of this game. You had two of the greatest coaches of all time in Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry on the sidelines as the two coordinators for the Giants. You had 12 future HOF players leave it all on the field. It literally is the "Greatest Game Ever Played."

I see from both Habs and LSN that they are talking about cultural significance and how great of moments these were for the respective countries. That's all well and good but I've already pointed out how significant the NFL Championship game was to the future of the game of football and American sports in general and on top of all that the game itself was greater then the Miracle On Ice and the Summit Series game 8. I'm not saying those games weren't great but just like there were comebacks in those games the 58 Championship game had comebacks from both teams. Just like the Summit Series game had a late game winning goal from Henderson, the 58 Championship game had a late two minute drive from Johnny U to tie the game AND an 80 yard drive in overtime that gave the Colts the victory. Every thing the two games my competitors are discussing had, the 58 Championship game had that and more. If this was a topic on best feel good moments for a particular country or countries then by all means they may have the two best choices, but the topic at hand is greatest game and no game is greater then the 1958 NFL Championship game.
__________________
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-23-2011, 01:18 PM
LSN80's Avatar
LSN80 LSN80 is offline
Registered User
United States Champion
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Age: 35
Posts: 2,680
LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Sexy View Post
To truly be known as the greatest game it is important that it is being played on a big stage. What bigger stage then the NFL Championship game at Yankee Stadium in New York? This was the game that decided who the best team in the NFL was and it happened in front of 64,185 fans in attendance and an estimated 45 million people watching at home.
I agree, and what bigger and better stage for a game to take place then on a Worldwide stage, the Olympics? This game was also played in New York, at Lake Placid, where it drew full capacity. The same can't be said be for the Baltimore/New York game, which came in 3,020 under capacity. Further, this wasn't just the game of American football being focused on, the eyes of the world were on the Olympics. And more importantly, those eyes were focused on the game between the United States and the USSR. This game didn't just decide who the best team in one league was, it decided who the best team in the world was. A bigger stage for a bigger game.

The television viewership also is in favor of the 1980 USA/USSR game. An estimated 52 million people tuned in to watch the Miracle on Ice. It took an incredible 30 years before the USA/Canada gold medal game at the 2010 Winter Olympics outdrew it, and only by approximately 1 million people. This is an astonishing figure considering the vast amount of increase in media outlets between then and now. Before the argument can arise that there were more media outlets available in 1980 then 1958, the 1980 Super Bowl drew just 35 million viewers, which is 10 million less then Baltimore/New York and 17 million less then the USA/USSR game. The Miracle on Ice was superior in viewership to the Baltimore/New York game in every way.


Quote:
The Giants and Colts combined to have 17 Hall of Famers with their organizations during this game. That includes 12 players like Johnny Unitas, Raymond Berry, Art Donovan, Frank Gifford, Don Maynard, and Sam Huff. It also included 3 coaches like Colts head coach Weeb Ewbank, Giants O Coordinator Vince Lombardi, and Giants D Coordinator Tom Landry. Two administrators within the Giants Organization round out the 17. Some of the greatest players and coaches of all time were involved in this game.
The Soviet team was considered to be the GREATEST team ever assembled in the history of professional hockey up until that day. Although the game was supposed to be contested solely by amateurs, the Soviets bypassed this rule on a technicality that they had all of their "professional" players loosely affiliated with the Soviet Red Army, which allowed them to maintain their amateur status. In actuality, most of the players on the USSR team were actually full time hockey players playing in the Soviet Elite League. This very team took on the NHL All Star team a month earlier in an exhibition game and thumped them 6-0. Between the two teams, 23 of the players and coaches were elected into either the United States or Russian Hall of Fame. On the United States side, Goalie Jim Craig, Forward Neil Broten, and Defenseman Dave Christian were among the elected, and coaches Herb Brooks and Craig Patrick were elected as well. As for the Soviets, Goalie Vladislov Tretiak, Defenseman Viacheslav Fetisov, and Forwards Valeri Kharlemov and Sergei Makarov were elected into the Hockey Hall of Fame as well, representative of the NHL. Tretiak and Kharlemov to this day are the only non-NHL players EVER to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. When Sports Illustrated named their greatest players of all time in 2000, Tretiak was the goalie alongside Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Hull, Bobby Orr, Mario Lemiuex, and Gordie Howe. There may not have been more accolades garnered by or a greater collection of players in any sport that stepped on the ice that day at Lake Placid on February 22nd, 1980. The Soviets were the greatest team ever assembled up until that day, and the United States matched them in play and ultimately toppled them.

Quote:
The game was highly competitive. A Pat Summerall field goal put the Giants up 3-0 after the first quarter. Then in the second the Colts turned the momentum around by forcing two Frank Gifford fumbles and turning those turnovers into a couple touchdowns on the offensive end. This gave the Colts a 14-3 lead at the half. Baltimore had a chance to put the game away early in the third quarter. They drove all the way to the Giants 1 yard line but were unable to punch the ball into the end zone and turned the ball over on downs. The Giants took advantage and went 95 yards in 4 plays including a huge 86 yard pass play from Charlie Conerly to Kyle Rote. That pass led to a 1 yard td run and pulled the Giants to within four, 14-10. The Giants took the lead early in the fourth after a Frank Gifford td catch and led 17-14. With just about 2 minutes left in the game the Colts took over at their own 14 yard line and Johnny Unitas led one of the most famous drives in NFL history. He took it all the way to the Giants 13 yard line where the Colts kicked a 20 yard field goal to tie the game at 17 with seven seconds left. While the overtime rule was in effect most players had never heard of it and didn't know what was going to happen. The Giants received the ball in overtime but were forced to punt. Johnny Unitas then led another tremendous drive taking the Colts 80 yards on 13 plays and Alan Ameche scored on a 1 yard td run to end the game 23-17. The Colts had defeated the Giants in what would be known as the "Greatest Game Ever Played."
Ive already pointed out succintly in my opening post about what made the United States victory over the Soviets so great, and one of the major points I discussed was the game itself. While there is no doubt that the Baltimore/New York game was a fantastic one, it paled in comparison to the truly back and forth nature of the USA/USSR game. There was never a time in the game where one team lead or trailed by more then one score. As you pointed out in your opening post, there was a time in the Giants/Colts game where the Colts were ahead by more then one score. Further, the Miracle didn't feature the runs made by each team in the other game, which signals letdowns at certain points of the game by each team. Baltimore ran off 14 unanswered points before New York ran a run of 14 points of their own. In the Miracle game, the score was 1-0, 1-1, 2-1, 2-2, 3-2, 3-3, and 4-3. It was the ultimate back and forth, tug of war game. That level of equal competitiveness alone throughout 60 minutes makes for a better game then a game of runs and gaffes by both teams. And for the Greatest Game Ever Played, it's not considered by many experts to even be the best game in NFL history. In this compilation between Sports Illustrated and ESPN, the Colts/Giants game came in as the 7th greatest football game the 20th Century, and only the 20th greatest contest of the Century. The Miracle on Ice was THE top hockey game and trailed only the epic John McEnroe Bjorn Borg Tennis Match and the Ali/Frazier "Rumble in the Jungle." The top two were individualized sporting contests, and with number three being the Miracle on Ice, it's the greatest TEAM sporting event ever played.

Click for Spoiler:
Source: SportsCentury-ESPN.com
Written in conjunction with CNN/SI staff writers and ESPN "SportsCentury" staff.
The 20th Centuries Greatest Contests:

1 JULY 5, 1980 McEnroe 18, Borg 16
It was the most excruciatingly sustained display of brilliance that tennis has ever seen, at the most prestigious tournament in the world, between the two greatest tennis players of all time, each at the peak of their abilities and both at pivotal moments of their careers. And it all converged at the perfect venue: Wimbledon's fabled Centre Court, which is occupied only two weeks out of the year - it's a theatre in search of a play.

In 1980, it played host to a masterpiece. The actors were 24-year-old Bjorn Borg, the greatest tennis player ever to set foot in the All-England Club, and John McEnroe, quite possibly the greatest player ever to set foot anywhere (Sampras, Laver and Tilden fans will argue, but McEnroe was about to embark on a four-year run at #1 in both singles AND doubles - the most dominant four years in men's tennis history). The two were at opposite ends of their magnificent careers: while #1-ranked Borg would retire within 15 months, at the physical peak of his career, due to a combination of personal problems and an inability to deal with McEnroe's ascendance, the precociously talented challenger (ranked #2 at the tender age of 21) was either too young or too arrogant to realize that Borg was destined to win.

The fourth-set tie-breaker was the Crown Jewel of their contest, a battle of wills that has never been duplicated. For Borg, it was a gritty display of his skill; for McEnroe, it was a coming of age - the man known as "superbrat" entered the stadium to boos, but departed to cheers.

2 OCTOBER 30, 1974 Rumble in the Jungle

Under a pale African moon in Kinshasa, Zaire, the greatest boxing match of all time unfolds. A younger Muhammed Ali could have run circles around heavyweight champion George Foreman, but at age 32, the 4:1 underdog has to improvise. A boxing purist can choose virtually any one of 5 of Ali's fights as his greatest - his three classics with Joe Frazier, his upset of Sonny Liston as a 7:1 underdog, or this one - but in my view it was this fight that defined him as a champion. If you had taken bets in 1968 that almost 30 years later, Muhammed Ali would be the most beloved athlete in American sports, and that the very sight of him holding an Olympic torch would bring an audience to tears ... well, you'd be rich beyond your wildest dreams today. A large portion of this phenomenon in American sports began with this battle.


3 FEBRUARY 22, 1980 The Miracle On Ice


One thing works against this game - the fact that it occurred in an Olympic event. I hate the Olympics. They are over-dramatized, jingoistic and literally amateurish - rarely do they play forum to a real, genuine,pure, unadulterated sporting event. Occasionally, something happens that is truly special without the benefit of the sentimental media back-stories, but usually it happens in a pseudo-sport like ice dancing or synchronized swimming. I mean, the luge - what the hell is that? That's just jumping on something that's going to cross the finish line with or without you. I call that hitchhiking.
Still, this was a legitimate event - an upset of colossal proportions that riveted a nation, and it remains the most memorable event of the last half-century for American sports fans. The four-time defending gold medalist Soviet team was mostly from the Central Red Army, technically not professionals because they didn't play for money, but they were the Soviet equivalents of Western pros. They had blown away the opposition in all five of their division games, outscoring their opponents 51-11, and had embarrassed the Americans 10-3 at Madison Square Garden just v13 days before the Lake Placid Games began. But in the semi-finals, they were victimized by a Cinderella story, a fairy tale so improbable that Hollywood screenwriters would never have imagined it.

4 JANUARY 2, 1982 1982 AFC Playoff Game

What a roller-coaster. The AFC semifinal playoff game between San Diego and Miami had a little bit of everything, including the most dramatic play of post-season history: Miami coach Don Shula's gimmicky "hook-and-lateral" - football's equivalent to baseball's "hidden-ball trick" - with zero seconds left in the first half. It also had more shifts in momentum than just about any game in history.

Some games need historical context (like the Miracle on Ice) or the passage of time (like the Rumble in the Jungle) to make them a classic: this one was clearly and obviously a momentous occasion from the very first.

5 SEPTEMBER 30, 1975 Ali-Frazier III: Thrilla in Manila

Ali says of the fight, "It was like death. Closest thing to dying that I know of." He and Frazier wrote boxing's most-compelling three-part series; each of their battles were wonderful to watch, but this closing chapter was the most dramatic and exciting fight ever held.

6 OCTOBER 21, 1975 Game 6, 1975 World Series

It rained for three days, then ... Two hard-luck teams battled on baseball's greatest playing field, Fenway Park, in the World Series. Even the casual fan will remember Carlton Fisk's game-winning home run in the 12th inning, aided by a major dose of body English. Unfortunately, Red Sox fans will also remember the Reds' 4-3 win the next day to win Game 7.

7 DECEMBER 31, 1967 The Ice Bowl

For the football purist, this is the epitome of what the game is supposed to represent: coach Lombardi's Packers taking on coach Landry's Cowboys in near-Arctic conditions, breath misting heavily in the frozen tundra of Lambeau Field. The game was played with no whistles - the little wooden balls had frozen inside the official's whistles. Now, that's cold. The icy conditions meant that the game was decided more by grit than by skill - Green Bay's kind of game. Lombardi wasn't a gambler, but his great goal-line gamble, trying for a game-winning touchdown rather a game-tyng field goal attempt off the icy field, was as simple as football gets: a classic blocking play with a dash to daylight for a memorable win.

8 JANUARY 22, 1989 Super Bowl XXIII

A lot of people think SBIII was the best of all time, but for my money this one had all the elements of the greatest Super Bowl ever played. Even though San Francisco held an advantage in total net yards (453 to 229), the 49ers found themselves trailing late in the game. It was one of the most tense scenes ever to grace a Super Bowl, and the man at the center of it all was Joe Montana. For a quarter of a century, the Super Bowl had waited for this: the game's greatest quarterback taking the game's greatest team the length of the field for a game-winning drive.

9 MAY 2, 1917 Toney-Vaugh No-Hitters

We all know how hard it is to throw a no-hitter - perhaps two or three times a year, a major league pitcher will pull it off. So when the Cubs' Hippo Vaughn went nine hitless innings against the Reds, he was pretty confident of a victory. Unfortunately for him, the Reds' Fred Toney chose that same day to throw a no-hitter. In this, the greatest pitching duel of all time, it was another rather famous hitter who settled it. Vaughn finally cracked in the top of the tenth, when Larry Kopf scored on a dribbler by Jim Thorpe (yes, that Jim Thorpe). Toney then threw a 10th inning of no-hit work to get the W. Who else but the Cubs could have a pitcher toss nine no-hit innings...and lose? Ah, the Cubs. The more things change.... At least they would have all those World Series titles to look forward to. Oops.

10 MARCH 28, 1992 Duke 104, Kentucky 103 (OT)

The most exciting basketball of all time: in the Spectrum in Philadelphia, two teams with great basketball traditions left everything they had on the court in this East Regional final. Together, the two teams scored on the last five possessions, swapping the lead five times, and it took Christian Laettner's buzzer-beater to win it. Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said afterward, "Did that really happen?"

11 OCTOBER 8, 1956 Don Larsen's Perfect Game
He was an imperfect man. A very average pitcher known more for partying than pitching excellence, his career 81-91 record over 15 seasons is the very embodiment of what baseball calls a journeyman. But on this day, Don Larsen got a chance to redeem himself on baseball's greatest stage, in front of a packed house at Yankee Stadium, during nothing less than the World Series.

Don Larsen was 3-21 with Baltimore two years previous, and he had come to the Yankees in an 18-player trade. Three days after blowing a 6-0 lead in Game 2, the no-windup pitcher found himself matched up against Sal "The Barber" Maglie. The Series was locked 2-2, against the Yankees' most bitter rival - the Brooklyn Dodgers.

Larsen was helped by three outstanding fielding plays. In the second inning, Jackie Robinson's hard grounder bounced off third baseman Andy Carey's glove, but shortstop Gil McDougald recovered the ball in time to throw out Robinson. In the fifth, center-fielder Mickey Mantle, whose homer had given the Yankees a 1-0 lead, streaked into deep left-center to make a backhanded catch to rob Gil Hodges of an extra-base hit. In the eighth, it was Carey's turn to rob Hodges, as he lunged to catch Hodges' liner inches off the ground. Larsen ended the game by slipping a called third strike past pinch-hitter Dale Mitchell before 64,519 breathless fans at Yankee Stadium. The Dodgers rebounded to win an exciting Game 6, behind hurler Clem Labine's 10 innings of shutout baseball, but in Game 7 Yankee pitcher Johnny Kucks tossed a shutout, and Dodger ace and NL MVP Don Newcombe allowed five runs in three innings to take the loss. On a more negative note for Larsen, his estranged wife filed a court action seeking to withhold his Series money because he was delinquent in his support payments.

12 OCTOBER 3, 1947 The Bevens-Lavagetto game

This is why I love baseball: in a World Series filled with the likes of Joe DiMaggio, Pee Wee Reese, Duke Snider, Yogi Berra, and Jackie Robinson, two rather ordinary Americans battled at history. Baseball can be a cruel sport. The Yankees and Dodgers couldn't call a time out; they couldn't devise a play to put heir best players on the field; they couldn't sit on the ball, or pass the ball around to kill the clock. At it's most critical moments, baseball chooses the players who will be heroes and goats with the randomness of a Vegas roulette wheel.

Bill Bevens, an undistinguished fourth starter with a 7-13 record for the Yankees, had a no-hitter going into the ninth inning. While he had permitted a fifth-inning run (on two walks, a sacrifice and a ground ball), he entered the ninth with a 2-1 lead and a chance to put his team up 3-1 in the '47 World Series. Bevens walked the first batter (Carl Furillo), his 9th walk of the day, and then retired the next two batters, to get to within one out of the win. Outfielder Al Gionfriddo was sent in to pinch run for Furillo, and promptly stole second. Pinch-hitter Pete Reiser (hitting for reliever Hugh Casey) was intentionally walked, and Eddie Miksis was inserted into the game as a runner for Reiser, who was bothered by a leg injury.

The underdog Dodgers now turned in desperation to a 34-year-old journeyman pinch hitter named Cookie Lavagetto, to hit for Eddie Stanky, their light-hitting second baseman. Lavagetto doubled off the right field wall to drive in two runs, and Brooklyn won 3-2 - in one fell swoop, Bevens lost his no-hitter and the game, and the Dodgers tied the Series 2-2. Of course, the Yankees won the Series anyway, and nine years later another Yankee righthander, Don Larsen, would throw the first Series no-hitter...against the Dodgers.

13 APRIL 4, 1983 NC State Upsets Houston, 54-52

The Wolfpack's victory over Akeem and Co. is the granddaddy of them all - the biggest upset in tournament sports this side of Joe Namath's Guarantee and the Miracle on Ice.

14 JUNE 4, 1976 Celtics 128, Suns 126 (3 OT)

It is likely the greatest game in NBA history, the triple-overtime thriller between the Boston Celtics and Phoenix Suns in the fifth game of the 1976 finals. John Havlicek had a chance to win it in regulation for the Celtics, but he missed one of two free throws with 19 seconds left and sent the game into OT.

But what really made the game special was the second overtime: an incredible seven points were scored in the final five seconds. Curtis Perry's jumper put the Suns up 110-109, but then Havlicek banked in a lunging jumper to put the Celtics up 111-110. The crowd at Boston Garden stormed the court, thinking the game was over, but the referees put a second back on the clock. An incensed fan attacked Richie Powers, one of the officials.

Rather than taking the ball out from under the Boston basket, guard Paul Westphal shrewdly called a timeout for the Suns, knowing they didn't have any left. This resulted in a technical, which Jo Jo White converted for a 112-110 Celtic lead, but it also gave the Suns a chance to take the ball out at half court. The strategy worked: Garfield Heard took the inbounds pass and beat the buzzer with a high, arching jumper from beyond the top of the key with Don Nelson's hand in his face.

In the third overtime, substitute Glenn McDonald, playing only because Paul Silas fouled out, scored six points, and the Celtics broke a 118-118 tie to earn a 128-126 victory.

15 JANUARY 12, 1969 The Guarantee

The first two Super Bowls were lopsided affairs, with the NFL representatives - the Green Bay Packers - trouncing the representatives of the upstart AFL (Kansas City in 1967 and Oakland in 1968). Packers coach Vince Lombardi summarized the conventional wisdom in 1967 when he said of the Chiefs: "They have great speed, but I'd have to say NFL football is tougher; their team doesn't compare with the top NFL teams."

So the AFL representatives to Super Bowl III - the New York Jets - were a little sensitive when hecklers lit into them three days before the game at a Miami bar. Jets quarterback Joe Namath, a double scotch in his hand, brassily answered them by saying, "We'll win. I guarantee it."

Brassy, considering that the Jets were 19-point underdogs to the Baltimore Colts. But Broadway Joe was as good as his word, guiding the Jets to a stunning 16-7 triumph and legitimizing the AFL with an upset for the ages. The Colts inserted the legendary Johnny Unitas late in the third quarter, down 16-0, but it was too late. Namath completed 17-of-28 passes for 206 yards, with George Sauer grabbing eight for 133 yards. Fullback Matt Snell gained 121 yards on 30 carries, including a four-yard touchdown run to give the Jets a 7-0 lead in the second quarter. Jim Turner tacked on three second-half field goals.

16 NOVEMBER 1, 1913 Notre Dame 35, Army 13
There's so much to say about this game, but maybe this sums it up: of all the legends echoing through history from South Bend, this one rings loudest. The unknown Irish pounded the undefeated Cadet juggernaut, and they did it with a gimmick: the forward pass.

Notre Dame's Gus Dorais went 14 for 17 for 243 yards and two touchdowns. One went to halfback Joe Pliska, the other to Knute Rockne. Army was bewitched by the aerial attack and couldn't stop the onslaught; maybe they should have turned to one of their halfbacks - a young man named Dwight David Eisenhower - for advice.

17 JANUARY 3, 1993 Bills 41, Houston 38

The greatest single game comeback in team sports history played out in favor of the Buffalo Bills, not a team known for playoff success. The Tennessee Titans would exact some measure of revenge six years with the Music City Miracle (Greatest Moments #17).

18 OCTOBER 13, 1960 Game 7, 1960 World Series

The World Series has had it's moments: Babe Ruth calling his shot, Bob Gibson striking out 17 batters, Christy Mathewson's three shutouts in six days, Willie Mays' incredible catch in 1954 off of Vic Wertz, and Fred Snodgrass muffing a fly ball. Don't forget Bill Wambsganss making an unassisted triple play, and Bill Buckner letting an easy roller escape.

But there is one moment that inhabits the dreams of kids playing stickball more than any other: winning Game 7 with a ninth-inning home run to defeat a heavily favored Goliath. And in all the years that baseball teams have met in the World Series, there is only one player who has ended a Game 7 of the World Series with a home run - Bill Mazeroski of the Pirates.

19 APRIL 18, 2000 Tiger Woods Wins U.S. Open

Tiger Woods is a true phenomenon. Admittedly, it's only golf - it's not like it's a real sport. And much of the Woods legend is built on the fact that he is a minority playing a game long reserved for white men - a fact that is totally irrelevant for the purist like me. But Woods' dominance of golf is still mind-boggling. Woods took the lead on 18 on Day 1, and never gave it back. By the end of Day 2, he had a record six-shot lead, and after Day 3, going into the final round, he was up by an astounding 10 strokes (another record).
On Sunday, Woods was all alone, playing for himself - and for history. His coronation began unspectacularly enough - he played the front nine with all pars. Then, while the rest of the field was playing for second, Woods took aim at the record books. As if sensing records were in range, Woods poured it on with one spectacular shot after another. He birdied four of the first five holes on the back nine, and saved par from a bunker on 17 with a shot that nearly went in.
Woods made par again on 18, and closed with a 4-under 67, the best score of the day. He became the first player in the 106-year history of the U.S. Open to finish 72 holes at double digits under par - 12-under - and his 15-stroke victory not only shattered the Open mark of 11 set by Willie Smith in 1899, but was the largest ever in a major championship, surpassing the 13-stroke victory by Old Tom Morris in the 1862 British Open.
Woods *averaged* 299.3 yards off the tee, hit 73% of fairways (41 of 56) and made 71% of greens in regulation (51 of 72). He was so dominant, he didn't make a bogey on the last 26 holes he played. Woods simply made a mockery of a U.S. Open that prides itself in protecting par.
Three years ago on the other side of the country, Woods had turned in a similarly scintillating performance, taming Augusta National to become the youngest Masters champion with a record 12-stroke victory.

The U.S. Open, however, was never supposed to look this easy. With his length on the par-5s, Woods simply shortened the course at Augusta. But you don't win the U.S. Open unless you have the whole package - driving, short game, iron play, putting. It is the toughest test in golf. Its aim is to identify the best player in the world.
Any questions?

20 DECEMBER 28, 1958 Colts 23, Giants 17 (OT)

The Baltimore Colts' 23-17 overtime victory over the New York Giants for the NFL championship is often called "the greatest game ever played." It may not be that, but it WAS the most important football game ever played because it changed the way America looked at pro football.


Quote:
Another historic thing about this game was the two minute drive led by Johnny Unitas. Before this drive the phrase "Two Minute Drill" didn't exist. Unitas became famous for this drive and many like it and the "Two Minute Drill" phrase is one that is still used on a regular basis to this day.
While it may have been the game in which the phrase was "coined", it was because of the fact that it was the game that, as you noted, was responsible for expanding the popularity of football in the United States. The two minute drill had been done before, specifically in the first NFL Championship game in 1933 between the Chicago Bears and New York Giants, and the 1944 one between the Green Bay Packers and the New York Giants. It was just in the Colts/Giants game that it was given an official name. It doesn't contribute in making the game great anymore then the popular "USA USA" chants that are famous to the day at national sporting contests that was first made famous at the Miracle on Ice game does. It simply means a phrase was coined.

Quote:
This was one of the most historic games in NFL history. With the game being broadcast on NBC this was one of the main reasons the NFL soared in popularity and is now the number one sport in the US. It's historic for many other reasons as well. Not only was it the first NFL game of any significance to go into overtime, it is still to this day the only NFL Championship game that has ever needed an overtime session.
And the game between the Soviets and the United States truly signaled the beginning of a new era in professional hockey as well. Up until this point, the NHL was primarily made up of Canadiens, and this single game put the league on notice that American players were forces to be reckoned with. Scouting in the United States became the rule rather then the exception. NHL teams began to draft Soviet players on a regular basis in hopes of enticing them to come play in North America. While no player came to play in the United States until 1988, it opened the door for Soviet players and eventually players from other continents to come play hockey in the NHL, truly making it the most balanced sport on earth most equally represented by nations around the world. Couple that with the fact that the audience was bigger, the stage was larger, the game was better played and better coached, it's easy to see how the United States/USSR Miracle on Ice game handily surpasses the Baltimore/New York 1958 NFL championship as the greatest of all time.

I apologize that I have to conclude my post in a seperate post altogether as my combined responses to both debators far surpassed the character limit allowed by the site. My response to Habs will follow.
__________________
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-23-2011, 01:23 PM
LSN80's Avatar
LSN80 LSN80 is offline
Registered User
United States Champion
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Age: 35
Posts: 2,680
LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatehabsforever View Post
You need to address the relevance of the game relative to its audience. What I mean by this is simple. Some consideration must be given to where the game was played, for whom, and the impact it had upon a particular audience. My choice for the greatest game of all time is again, the eighth and deciding game of the Summit Series between Canada and the Soviet Union in the fall of 1972. Nationalistic pride was in full force in this one. The ultimate battle of "us versus them," which in today's world, especially in hockey, would be nearly impossible to replicate. 38 years ago, we had a battle between a Canadian squad of NHLers, versus the Communist squad of hockey players from the Soviet Union. The Cold War was in full effect, eight years earlier than the Miracle on Ice. In terms of the political and social aspect of this time, the sentiments of the Canadian population regarding the Soviet Union largely echoed that of our neighbors to our immediate south. In this regard, Canada and the United States are quite comparable. The animosity, the apprehension, the hostility toward the Soviet Union was every bit as real for Canadians, and Canadian sports fans, as it was for our American counterparts.

This game was extremely significant for the players, the coaches, and the fans of the era. This is evidenced by the magnitude of this series as it is still perceived today, nearly four decades later. Unlike today, with the modern day NHL being represented significantly by Canadians, Americans, Russians, Swedes, Czechs, Finns and others, this was not the case in 1972. The NHL was top heavy with Canadians, and we were extremely proud of this fact. In contrast, our opponents were relatively unknown to us. Even though they were basically professional hockey players in their own country who maintained amateur status by skullduggery, we didn't really appreciate their skill level, their conditioning, their stamina, their mental toughness, and their cohesiveness until it was nearly too late. And if it hadn't resulted in success, it would have been devastating to all parties involved.
Context is important, but it isn't the be-all, end-all. But if we're going there, what BETTER context then the game between the USA and the USSR, at the Olympics? The Summit Series was merely a battle between two nations that disliked each other immensely, and as you acknowledged, knew LITTLE about each other. No game has held more relevance perhaps in American history then the Miracle on Ice game. The Olympics was about declaring the best in the WORLD, and the game happened to be between the two biggest rivals to perhaps ever made on an Olympic stage, given the context. And we knew how good the Soviets were, they had won the last FOUR gold medals and had drubbed us 10-3 in an exhibition before the Olympics had started. It was why Brooks adapted his gameplan to a hybrid between the American style fo dump and chase with the European free skating, puck possession approach. Having a coach who draws up a magnificent game plan and his team executing it is also part of the context for what makes for a great game, and Brooks knew that and did exactly that, ensuring that the USA came in prepared for the USSR. When you have two teams preparing for and familar with each other, a better conetst is generally bound to ensue. And the expectations for the Americans coming in can be summed up by Herb Brooks himself, right before the game between the two.

Quote:
Originally posted by Herb Brooks:
Great moments are born from great opportunity. And that's what you have here tonight, boys. That's what you've earned here, tonight. One game. If we played 'em ten times, they might win nine. But not this game. Not tonight. Tonight, we skate with 'em. Tonight, we stay with 'em, and we shut them down because we can! Tonight, we are the greatest hockey team in the world. You were born to be hockey players—every one of ya. And you were meant to be here tonight. This is your time. Their time—is done. It's over. I'm sick and tired of hearin' about what a great hockey team the Soviets have. Screw 'em! This is your time!! Now go out there and take it!
Right there represented the sentiment shared by the Americans across the nation. They believed in this team. They were passionate about this team. They had seen what the Americans had accomplished in the earlier rounds of the tournament, putting expectations and pressure at an all time high. Still remaining the underdogs, the Americans took the faith and belief their nation had in them and delivered upon the weight of those expectations and still being seen as "less then" the Soviet Union. It truly was the greatest game ever played.

Quote:
It could be argued that the Americans who participated in the Olympics against the Soviet Union in 1980 did so with little pressure on them. Let's face it. Of the four major sports played in North America, namely football, baseball, basketball, and hockey, hockey is seen by the majority of Americans as the least significant of them, a distant fourth amongst most American sports fans, especially the more casual ones. No one expected the Americans to be able to compete with the Soviets. Therefore, if they had lost, no one would have really cared. The sentiment would likely have been, "oh well, it's only hockey anyway, it's not like it's something that really matters like football or basketball.".
This is a humungous fallacy. The fact that this game, and not one of the Summit Series games, was one of the most broadcast hockey games of all time is a testament to that. In comparison with the USA/Russia game, the Summit Series drew only a paltry 18 million viewers as compared to the 52 million that watched the Miracle on Ice. If this importance was so much more prevalent as you claim, why did 34 million MORE people tune into the Miracle on Ice then they did the Summit Series Finale? That's a gaping difference that cannot be accounted for other then with the logical conclusion that the Americans were more passionate about this game then the Canadiens were the Summit Series and the Miracle on Ice game was considered to be on a bigger stage then the Summit Series was. Perhaps you're selling it a little short.

What's more, when a News Anchor in Washington DC accidentally broke the score of the game(As it was being showed on tape delay in the United States), the station and the female anchor were pelted by thousands of angry phone calls and death threats towards her. If "noone really cared", then why did these events occur? Obviously, the Americans at the time were much more passionate about the game and the sport of hockey at the time then you give them credit for.

Quote:
Some would say the fact that a team is comprised of underdogs makes their eventual success, such as with the Miracle on Ice, even greater. I disagree.
Youre right, it doesn't. But it does make for a greater game, especially when said underdog stands toe to toe with the greatest hockey team in the world for an entire 60 minutes and doesn't blink, defeating them in dramatic fashion by coming back from three deficits. People seem to live under the assumption that this was the only tournament game the US was a massive underdog in. They were massive underdogs against Sweden, the USSR, and Finland. Being an underdog was certainly part of the story in this game, without a doubt, and contributed to making it the greatest game ever played. But it wasn't the entire picture.


Quote:
My fellow debaters clearly do not fall into this mind set, but I would generalize the American sports fan as feeling this lower sense of significance toward hockey. I would suggest that the American team entered the semifinal Miracle on Ice with low expectations, of themselves and from their country, and as such, had far less pressure, far less drama, and far less to lose.
Low expectations? Herb Brooks was handpicked because the Americans had HIGH expectations, and there was no greater motivator perhaps in the history of American hockey then Brooks. Brooks, used a tough, confrontational style that broke his players. Their conditioning was top-notch, a major factor in them upsetting the Soviets. All of their practices were contact drills in which Brooks would repeatedly stop practice to berate his players for mistakes and perceived weaknesses. Here's just some of the things Brooks said in preparing the team for the game.


Click for Spoiler:
Source: Wikipedia.com

Brooks' original expressions were known by his players as "Brooksisms." According to Olympians John Harrington, Dave Silk, and Mike Eruzione, these are a few.

"You're playing worse and worse every day and right now you're playing like it's next month."
"You can't be common, the common man goes nowhere; you have to be uncommon."
"Boys, I'm asking you to go to the well again."
"You look like you have a five pound fart on your head."
"You guys are getting bent over and they're not using Vaseline."
"You look like a monkey tryin' to hump a football!"
"You're looking for players whose name on the front of the sweater is more important than the one on the back. I look for these players to play hard, to play smart and to represent their country.”
"Great moments are born from great opportunities."
"You know, Willie Wonka said it best: we are the makers of dreams, the dreamers of ."
"This team isn't talented enough to win on talent alone."


Brooks knew the meticulous balance of being tough on his players, and motivating them, and he walked that line with expert precision. For those who would downplay the role of a coach in the success/greatness of a particular game, whose the first person we scream to go when our favorite team isn't playing well? The coach. We understand the importance of coaches in games, and for one night, Herb Brooks was the greatest coach of all time, which contributes to the fact that this was the greatest game of all time.

And as for less drama, are you serious? Just to get to the game, the United States tied their first game against Sweden with 27 seconds left. They routed a heavily favored Czechoslovokian team 7-3 just to get there. As for expectations, the arena sold out with American fans. It was a sea of red white and blue for the USA/USSR game. Lets not forget the speech Herb Brooks gave his team before the game, or what happened in the game itself. The Americans tied the game with one second to go in the first period, causing who some to be considered the greatest goalie of all time in Vladislav Tretiak , to be pulled. They erased another deficit in the third period, took the lead with ten minutes to play, and took the play to the Soviets in a balanced last 10 minutes of play. They then made one of the greatest "defensive stands" in the history of sports, as evidenced by the video I provided earlier. This was high drama at it's best!

Quote:
In stark contrast, the typical Canadian hockey fan of this time was far more passionate about the game. Hockey was not just a game, it was our game. It was like a religion, and as such, nationalistic sentiments and fanaticism were rampant. The pressure on this team was intense. When game eighth was played, the country largely ground to a halt. Schools, businesses, everyone stopped and watched, focused on their television sets. Ken Dryden, when interviewed subsequently, that his sentiments between the second and third periods of this game were that he knew that if they lost, he would be the most hated man in Canada. And he was right. Playing under such scrutiny, such pressure, such intense expectations, and ultimately prevailing, that far and away exceeds success as an underdog.
No it doesn't. The Americans were under the same amount of scrutiny, if not more, then the Canadiens were. Far more people were watching the USA/USSR game then game 8 of the Summit Series. Note the death threats I mentioned above when a news anchor accidentally spoiled the results. The Soviets were even moreso bitter rivals to the United States then they were to the Canadiens because of the 2nd Cold War. I don't recall the Canadiens boycotting an Olympic game in protest the way the United States did in Summer of 1980. And if the way you're describing the games is accurate, the Soviet Union came in the "underdog", not two teams playing on an equal playing field. For all of the arguments to be made about the United States being underdogs, they were the equals and one goal better then the Soviets on February 22nd, 1980. The fact that they erased 3 1 goal deficits and got one of the most magnificent performances by a goalie of all time due to the stage it was in Jim Craig stopping 36 shots made the game all the more remarkable.
As for being passionate, watch the video I posted in my OP. That there is truly the visual definition of "passionate."

Quote:
Remember that Canada was expected to dominate this series, and when they lost game 1 in Montreal, won game 2 in Toronto, tied game three in Winnipeg, and lost their final game on home ice in Vancouver, complete with getting booed off the ice by their rabid and unrelenting fans who would not be appeased by anything other than complete success, pressure upon these guys was more intense than ever, as seen by the impassioned Esposito speech after game four.
These games are entirely irrelevant. Are you arguing the series here, or just the final game? It's difficult to tell, honestly, by the way you're presenting them equally.

Quote:
If this wasn't enough pressure, the last four games would be played in the hostile world of Communist Soviet Union in the midst of the Cold War. A loss in game five cranked the pressure up even more. Now Canada had to win three games in succession under the most difficult of circumstances, knowing that if they were unable to come through, people back home would be disgusted and devastated. Two tight victories by the Canadian squad in games 6 and 7 evened things up, but even still, at 3-3-1 and trailing in goal differential, only a Canadian victory would do in the final showdown.
Again, I find this to be irrelevant. I understand that these games may have set the stage for the 8th game, but the question was about the "greatest game", not the "greatest series". The United States didn't win the Gold Medal, or were assured of medaling, after beating the Russians. A Russia win over Sweden and a US loss to Finland would have left the US in 4th place by virtue of goal differential, as this was a round robin tournament, not a single-elimination. Finland actually won the bronze and the USSR the Silver after all was said and done. None of those were factors as to why the USA/USSR game was the greatest of all time. It was because of the way the game was contested, the stage it was on, the great sense of national pride, and the players on the ice that made the game truly special.

Quote:
Game eight was truly remarkable. Despite the momentum produced by their last two victories, the game was tied at two after the first period, but Canada trailed 5-3 at the second intermission. They managed to tie it up in the third stanza, setting up the drama which is near and dear to the hearts Of Canadians to this day. When Paul Henderson shoveled the rebound from Phil Esposito behind Tretiak with only 34 seconds remaining, scoring the goal heard around the world, the result of the greatest game ever played was determined. It was a moment that, when looked at though the eyes of the Canadian fan from our perspective, has to be seen as the greatest game of all time.
Its funny that no major lists of great games see it that way. Was it a great game? Yes. Was it the greatest ever? Not even in it's own sport. The USA/Canada Gold Medal game in 2010 at the Vancouver Olympics was better, with the USA tying it with less then a minute to play on a goal by Zach Parise, and Canada winning it in overtime on a goal by Sidney Crosby. And that game couldn't touch the Miracle on Ice. Those "amateurs" went on to become multi-time all-stars and most of them HOF's. They were far more skilled then given credit for, and it showed in them erasing the 1-0 lead, 2-1 lead(with 1 second to go in the first on one of the greatest individual plays Ive ever seen), a 3-2 lead, and holding off a furious Soviet rally to win 4-3. For American's who look at hockey as it's "fourth sport' to pretty unanimously recognize it as the greatest game ever played says even more about it.

Quote:
I am unimpressed with the accolades and the awards heaped upon the Miracle on Ice as these are purely from the American perspective. Movies were made about the Summit Series as well, it's just that they didn't have the marketing machine as only the United States can offer to bring them to the collective conscious of the casual fan. Without such movies, I maintain that a lot of the American population would barely even be aware of the Miracle on Ice, and even for those who became aware, they in general cared far less about it (debaters here aside) than the typical Canuck.
Im pretty sure that the 55 million people combined who watched the game live and on reply would assure that regardless of what feature films were made about said event, America was quite aware and passionate about the game. If anything, you have things the opposite way around. It's the passion and high regard with which us Americans hold the game that spurred the making of two films and a documentary about it.

Quote:
As I said earlier, it is important to keep things in perspective, in context, when assessing the greatest game of all time. What did the final game of the Summit Series mean to the Canadians who lived and breathed it, relative to what did the Miracle on Ice mean to the Americans who watched that? I contend that the Summit Series, especially the final and deciding game, meant far more to the nation of Canada, far more to the game of hockey and it's evolution into the game it has become today, than any other game has meant to any other group, in relative terms. And this is why the eighth game of the Summit Series, with the dramatic late game heroics of the Canadians in September, 1972, has to seen as the greatest game of all time. Certainly greater than a simple championship game in a professional football league. And greater than the famous and significant Miracle on Ice.
Game 8 of the Summit Series meant less to the world then the Miracle on Ice did, which is the true context that needs to be examined. I already showed that with the large disparity in viewership numbers and the outcry against a young female news anchor who accidentally gave away the results. What's more, the Miracle on Ice lifted American spirits, breathing life into a nation both from a hockey perspective but a national one as well. The heroics and the meticulously executed game plan of the Americans with Herb Brooks cannot be denied as well, as erasing 3 deficits in one hockey game while chasing the greatest goalie in the world is virtually unheard of. The heroics of Mike Eruzione in stepping up like a Captain does and scoring the game winning goal cannot be understated or undervalued. The defensive play of the underdog Americans and netminder Jim Craig in doing something the favorite Soviets couldn't on three occasions in holding the lead is also the stuff of legend. These factors combined easily contributed to making the Miracle on Ice a far more significant game then the 8th game of the Summit Series, and more importantly, a greater game as well.
__________________
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-23-2011, 05:19 PM
Big Sexy's Avatar
Big Sexy Big Sexy is offline
Deadly Rap Cannibal
King of the Ring
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Detroit
Age: 28
Posts: 3,212
Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSN80 View Post
I agree, and what bigger and better stage for a game to take place then on a Worldwide stage, the Olympics? This game was also played in New York, at Lake Placid, where it drew full capacity. The same can't be said be for the Baltimore/New York game, which came in 3,020 under capacity. Further, this wasn't just the game of American football being focused on, the eyes of the world were on the Olympics. And more importantly, those eyes were focused on the game between the United States and the USSR. This game didn't just decide who the best team in one league was, it decided who the best team in the world was. A bigger stage for a bigger game.
And exactly what does attendance have to do with how great a game was? If there's a 3 ot college basketball game with 50 lead changes and only 10,000 people see it does that make it any less of a great game? Fuck no. The stage plays a part in the greatness of a game but you can't compare an Olympic stage to that of a regular pro sport in the US. The 58 Championship game was on as a big a stage as it possibly could have been and that's what I was getting at. That doesn't make it any less of a big stage then the 1980 Miracle On Ice, both were played on as big a stage as possible for their particular event and time period.

Quote:
The television viewership also is in favor of the 1980 USA/USSR game. An estimated 52 million people tuned in to watch the Miracle on Ice. It took an incredible 30 years before the USA/Canada gold medal game at the 2010 Winter Olympics outdrew it, and only by approximately 1 million people. This is an astonishing figure considering the vast amount of increase in media outlets between then and now. Before the argument can arise that there were more media outlets available in 1980 then 1958, the 1980 Super Bowl drew just 35 million viewers, which is 10 million less then Baltimore/New York and 17 million less then the USA/USSR game. The Miracle on Ice was superior in viewership to the Baltimore/New York game in every way.
Two facts you are completely failing to mention:

1. The NFL Championship was blacked out in New York City because of NFL restrictions so there goes a lot of viewers right there.

2. The 58 Championship Game took place at 2:00 in the afternoon. The Miracle On Ice was in prime time. Big difference there. The Miracle On Ice may have been on tape delay but most people watching didn't know the outcome and even if they did I can guarantee they made sure they watched it.



Quote:
The Soviet team was considered to be the GREATEST team ever assembled in the history of professional hockey up until that day. Although the game was supposed to be contested solely by amateurs, the Soviets bypassed this rule on a technicality that they had all of their "professional" players loosely affiliated with the Soviet Red Army, which allowed them to maintain their amateur status. In actuality, most of the players on the USSR team were actually full time hockey players playing in the Soviet Elite League. This very team took on the NHL All Star team a month earlier in an exhibition game and thumped them 6-0. Between the two teams, 23 of the players and coaches were elected into either the United States or Russian Hall of Fame. On the United States side, Goalie Jim Craig, Forward Neil Broten, and Defenseman Dave Christian were among the elected, and coaches Herb Brooks and Craig Patrick were elected as well. As for the Soviets, Goalie Vladislov Tretiak, Defenseman Viacheslav Fetisov, and Forwards Valeri Kharlemov and Sergei Makarov were elected into the Hockey Hall of Fame as well, representative of the NHL. Tretiak and Kharlemov to this day are the only non-NHL players EVER to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. When Sports Illustrated named their greatest players of all time in 2000, Tretiak was the goalie alongside Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Hull, Bobby Orr, Mario Lemiuex, and Gordie Howe. There may not have been more accolades garnered by or a greater collection of players in any sport that stepped on the ice that day at Lake Placid on February 22nd, 1980. The Soviets were the greatest team ever assembled up until that day, and the United States matched them in play and ultimately toppled them.
Fantastic. No one is arguing that it wasn't the greatest moment in sports history or possibly the biggest upset in sports history. This is about which game overall was the best and while an underdog story is nice and may add to the suspense of the game it doesn't automatically make it better.



Quote:
Ive already pointed out succintly in my opening post about what made the United States victory over the Soviets so great, and one of the major points I discussed was the game itself. While there is no doubt that the Baltimore/New York game was a fantastic one, it paled in comparison to the truly back and forth nature of the USA/USSR game. There was never a time in the game where one team lead or trailed by more then one score. As you pointed out in your opening post, there was a time in the Giants/Colts game where the Colts were ahead by more then one score. Further, the Miracle didn't feature the runs made by each team in the other game, which signals letdowns at certain points of the game by each team. Baltimore ran off 14 unanswered points before New York ran a run of 14 points of their own. In the Miracle game, the score was 1-0, 1-1, 2-1, 2-2, 3-2, 3-3, and 4-3. It was the ultimate back and forth, tug of war game. That level of equal competitiveness alone throughout 60 minutes makes for a better game then a game of runs and gaffes by both teams. And for the Greatest Game Ever Played, it's not considered by many experts to even be the best game in NFL history. In this compilation between Sports Illustrated and ESPN, the Colts/Giants game came in as the 7th greatest football game the 20th Century, and only the 20th greatest contest of the Century. The Miracle on Ice was THE top hockey game and trailed only the epic John McEnroe Bjorn Borg Tennis Match and the Ali/Frazier "Rumble in the Jungle." The top two were individualized sporting contests, and with number three being the Miracle on Ice, it's the greatest TEAM sporting event ever played.
Both games were back and forth, your whole "double digit lead" nonsensical argument is grasping at straws. Both contests were back and forth the whole time and had multiple lead changes. I'll take the two minute drive to tie the game up and the the ot drive for the win over the US having the lead for a full ten minutes at the end of the Olympic game. As far as your SI/ESPN list I can see in the description that they did exactly what you did and base a lot of their argument on the fact that it was such a huge upset and was memorable because of that fact. When talking about the greatest game that is just one small factor to me. When it comes to the games themselves, forget Olympics, forget upsets, forget national pride, just the game. Then the 58 Championship game takes it over the Miracle On ice.



Quote:
While it may have been the game in which the phrase was "coined", it was because of the fact that it was the game that, as you noted, was responsible for expanding the popularity of football in the United States. The two minute drill had been done before, specifically in the first NFL Championship game in 1933 between the Chicago Bears and New York Giants, and the 1944 one between the Green Bay Packers and the New York Giants. It was just in the Colts/Giants game that it was given an official name. It doesn't contribute in making the game great anymore then the popular "USA USA" chants that are famous to the day at national sporting contests that was first made famous at the Miracle on Ice game does. It simply means a phrase was coined.
It was just another part of the history that I was showing for the game. I can easily take that part completely out of my argument and still have an easy time debating. You take all the history with the upset and how Soviets had dominated out of your argument and you're in trouble.




Quote:
And the game between the Soviets and the United States truly signaled the beginning of a new era in professional hockey as well. Up until this point, the NHL was primarily made up of Canadiens, and this single game put the league on notice that American players were forces to be reckoned with. Scouting in the United States became the rule rather then the exception. NHL teams began to draft Soviet players on a regular basis in hopes of enticing them to come play in North America. While no player came to play in the United States until 1988, it opened the door for Soviet players and eventually players from other continents to come play hockey in the NHL, truly making it the most balanced sport on earth most equally represented by nations around the world.
Yet hockey is currently struggling and is 4th in popularity among the 4 major sports. The NFL is easily the most popular league in the US and it isn't even close.

Quote:
Couple that with the fact that the audience was bigger, the stage was larger, the game was better played and better coached, it's easy to see how the United States/USSR Miracle on Ice game handily surpasses the Baltimore/New York 1958 NFL championship as the greatest of all time.
I already pointed out the flaws in your stage and audience argument. When it comes to better played I did the same and proved the 58 Championship game between the leagues top offensive and defensive teams was better. When it comes to better coached that is absolute bullshit and you know it. That is 100% subjective opinion with zero factual base on your part. I have facts if you want to bring up coaching. The Colts were led by HOFer Weeb Ewbank and both of the Giants coordinators would leave the next year to become head coaches and they became two of the greatest head coaches of all time. Maybe you heard of them? Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry? Ring a bell? The 58 NFL Championship game > Miracle on Ice all day long.
__________________
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-23-2011, 08:50 PM
LSN80's Avatar
LSN80 LSN80 is offline
Registered User
United States Champion
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Age: 35
Posts: 2,680
LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...LSN80 is a United States Champion...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Sexy View Post
And exactly what does attendance have to do with how great a game was? If there's a 3 ot college basketball game with 50 lead changes and only 10,000 people see it does that make it any less of a great game? Fuck no. The stage plays a part in the greatness of a game but you can't compare an Olympic stage to that of a regular pro sport in the US. The 58 Championship game was on as a big a stage as it possibly could have been and that's what I was getting at. That doesn't make it any less of a big stage then the 1980 Miracle On Ice, both were played on as big a stage as possible for their particular event and time period.
Quote:
To truly be known as the greatest game it is important that it is being played on a big stage. This was the game that decided who the best team in the NFL was and it happened in front of 64,185 fans in attendance and an estimated 45 million people watching at home.
The bold parts that I outlined were taken directly from your opening post. You brought up the notion of attendance and viewership, not I. I simply was pointing out that the "stage" for the championship game wasn't nearly as significant as you thought that it was seeing that they couldn't even sell out the game! It's a rediculous notion to state that just because a game was played on the biggest stage possible, it makes it equal in terms of a stage as the Miracle on Ice. Both games were played in New York, with the same opportunities. The Miracle on Ice game sold out, the championship game didn't. While hockey may not be as relevant now as football, this one hockey game was more relevant then that one football game given the nature of its event and the time period in which it was played. There are many factors that go into seperating a great game from the greatest game, and stage is one of them. And the Miracle on Ice completely outclasses the 1958 championship game in terms of stage.


Quote:
1. The NFL Championship was blacked out in New York City because of NFL restrictions so there goes a lot of viewers right there.
This still doesn't account for the 10 million viewer disparity in viewership. According to the US Census Bureau, only 7.8 million households in the state of New York have a television in 2011, so that's still a disparity of over 2 million if you assume that every man, woman, and child in the state would have watched, which would have been quite the stretch. It's also a stretch to assume that the number of households with a TV in New York in 1980 is equal to the number today. Again, there's a large disparity that you simply can't account for.

Quote:
2. The 58 Championship Game took place at 2:00 in the afternoon. The Miracle On Ice was in prime time. Big difference there. The Miracle On Ice may have been on tape delay but most people watching didn't know the outcome and even if they did I can guarantee they made sure they watched it.
The 1958 championship game also took place on a Sunday, so the 2:00 pm time is virtually negligible. It's not as if it took place during the week when people were working. The Miracle game was also aired on a Sunday in the United States, so the "prime time" factor you've noted is negligble.

Quote:
Fantastic. No one is arguing that it wasn't the greatest moment in sports history or possibly the biggest upset in sports history. This is about which game overall was the best and while an underdog story is nice and may add to the suspense of the game it doesn't automatically make it better.
I wasn't arguing that those factors alone made it the greatest game ever played, I argued that they were part of the equation. The underdog aspect and the moment do add to making the game the greatest game ever played, which is what is being argued here. The 1958 game doesn't have the underdog element or the overall moment that the Miracle on Ice does, once again making it inferior in determining the greatest game ever played.


Quote:
Both games were back and forth, your whole "double digit lead" nonsensical argument is grasping at straws. Both contests were back and forth the whole time and had multiple lead changes. I'll take the two minute drive to tie the game up and the the ot drive for the win over the US having the lead for a full ten minutes at the end of the Olympic game.It was just another part of the history that I was showing for the game. I can easily take that part completely out of my argument and still have an easy time debating. You take all the history with the upset and how Soviets had dominated out of your argument and you're in trouble.
We could go back and forth on this for days, and we're not going to agree. Ill take the United States coming back from three deficits, including scoring a dramatic goal with one second to play at the end of the first period to tie the game and chase the greatest goalie ever to play the game. Ill take Captain Mike Eruzione stepping up and scoring the game winning goal with 10 minutes to play, and goalie Jim Craig making 36 saves including 10 in the final ten minutes.

Ill take perhaps the greatest talent to set foot on the ice in one game over two Giant fumbles leading to a Baltimore double digit lead, which was subsequently blown on a large defensive gaffe by the Colts. The mistakes continued on a lucky fumble that bounced to the Giants and was run down to the 1 yard line. It's obvious to see that a back and forth game against the greatest hockey team ever assembled trumps a game filled with fumbles, muffed punts, defensive gaffes, and a touchdown scored on a tired defense.

Quote:
When it comes to the games themselves, forget Olympics, forget upsets, forget national pride, just the game. Then the 58 Championship game takes it over the Miracle On ice.
Ill take a mistake free game that was back and forth the entire game filled with multiple comebacks over a mistake ridden game. There are a number of factors that make the Miracle on Ice a better game then the 1958 Championship game, and a well played game that was back and forth the entire game with the best player scoring the game winner in dramatic fashion is one of the biggest reasons why the Miracle on Ice trumps the 1958 Championship game. When comparing the games alone on quality of play, the Miracle on Ice is obviously superior.

Quote:
As far as your SI/ESPN list I can see in the description that they did exactly what you did and base a lot of their argument on the fact that it was such a huge upset and was memorable because of that fact.
The SI/ESPN list also included your 1958 championship game, at number 20. It pointed out the obvious factual information that while the 1958 championship game was the most important football game ever played, it was #7 within its OWN sport in terms of well played. There's no way around that. The Miracle on Ice was the top game not only within its own sport, but within ALL of team sports. Again, I used factual information to show that the Miracle on Ice was the greater game then the 1958 Championship Game.

Here's another ESPN article regarding the greatest games of the 20th century. Note that the title is the greatest games, not moments or upsets. The final voting is at the bottom.

Click for Spoiler:
Source: ESPN.com

The Greatest Game of the Century
OK, the first round of voting narrowed the field to 10 finalists for the greatest game of the century. Read about these memorable games and contests and then place your vote for the greatest one of all.

Muhammed Ali-Joe Frazier III
September 30, 1975, Quezon, Phillippines: Ali wins, TKO 14
As Larry Merchant put it, "They fought for the heavyweight championship of each other." This was the rubber match, so this decided it, although both were past their primes. But the fight was probably the most brutal, bruising spectacle in heavyweight history. Frazier finally had to quit after the 14th round, unable to see. Ali collapsed onto the floor after the TKO, unable to stand. Afterwards, Ali said, "Joe is the greatest of all time next to me."

1975 World Series, Game 6
Oct. 21, 1975: Boston Red Sox 7, Cincinnati Reds 6
This game had it all. Fred Lynn's three-run homer staked Boston to a first-inning lead. The Reds led 6-3 in the eighth, but Bernie Carbo tied it up with a pinch-hit three-run homer. The Sox loaded the bases with no outs in the ninth, when Lynn flied to George Foster in left, who nailed Denny Doyle at the plate for a double play. In the 11th, Dwight Evans made a spectacular play in right off Joe Morgan's shot and doubled Ken Griffey off first. At one point, Pete Rose stepped up to bat and told Carlton Fisk, "This is one of the greatest games ever. And we're playing in it!" Finally, Fisk led off the bottom of the 12th and lofted a fly ball toward the Green Monster. Fisk stood at home plate, waving the ball fair, coaxing it with body language ... and it hit the foul pole for the game-winning home run.

1980: Miracle on Ice
Feb. 22, 1980: United States 4, Soviet Union 3
The U.S. hockey team consisted of a bunch of amateur college players. Nobody expected them to play with the powerful Soviets, who regularly beat NHL teams and had many of the best players in the world. In an exhibition game two weeks before the Olympics, the Soviets won 10-3. In a semifinal game in Lake Placid, N.Y., the Soviets led 3-2 entering the final period. But Mark Johnson tied the game with 11˝ minutes left and two minutes later team captain Mike Eruzione scored for a 4-3 lead. With the crowd wildly cheering them on, the U.S. held on for the stunning upset. Goalie Jim Craig finished with 36 saves and in the locker room, the U.S. players sing "God Bless America." Two days later, they beat Finland 4-2 to capture the gold medal.

1981 AFC playoff game
Jan. 2, 1982: San Diego Chargers 41, Miami Dolphins 38 (OT)
The Orange Bowl has hosted many memorable games, including this classic. Dan Fouts and the high-powered San Diego offense led 24-0 after one quarter. The Dolphins fought back, scoring right before the half on a hook-and-lateral play to Tony Nathan to make it 24-17. It goes back and forth and ends up 38-38 after regulation. Kellen Winslow, who delivered one of the most inspirational individual performances in history with 13 catches for 166 yards, blocked a potential game-winning field goal before Rolf Benirschke's 29-yarder 13:52 into OT finally won it for the Chargers. Winslow, towels draped over him, has to be helped off the field, unable to walk.

1984 Orange Bowl
Jan. 1, 1984: Miami 31, Nebraska 30
The top-ranked Cornhuskers were 12-point favorites to beat No. 4 Miami. It's easy to understand why -- Nebraska had scored 624 points while going 12-0, the highest-scoring team in college football history (Heisman winner Mike Rozier scored 29 TDs). But Nebraska had played only one ranked team all season and it showed as the 'Huskers fell behind 17-0 as Bernie Koser picked apart the secondary. Nebraska guard Dean Steinkuhler scored on a "fumblerooski" play, but Miami still led 31-17 entering the fourth quarter. Rozier was injured in the third quarter, but backup Jeff Smith scored with 6:55 left to make it 31-24. Later, on a fourth-and-8 from the Miami 24, Smith took an option and scored with 48 seconds left. Tom Osborne went for two. The pass was broken up and Miami won the national championship.

1992 NCAA Tournament East regional finals
March 28, 1992: Duke 104, Kentucky 103 (OT)
After an exciting, fast-paced regulation between two powerhouses, the action heated up in overtime. The two teams scored on the final five possessions of the game, trading the lead back and forth. Kentucky took a 103-102 lead with 2.9 seconds left on Sean Woods' crazy, 10-foot bankshot. That set up the final play. Grant Hill threw the ball all the way down court to Christian Laettner at the foul line. Laettner faked one way, took one dribble and hit the miracle turnaround jumper at the buzzer, completing a perfect day shooting: he scored 31 points on 10-for-10 from the field and 10-for-10 at the foul line. Duke went on to win the national title.

1994 Stanley Cup Finals, Game 7
June 14, 1994: New York Rangers 3, Vancouver Canucks 2
One of only two seven-game finals since 1971, the Rangers were seeking their first Stanley Cup championship since 1940. The Rangers led the series 3-1 but the Canucks won twice to force Game 7 at Madison Square Garden. The Rangers grabbed a 2-0 lead in the first period, but Vancouver cut it to 2-1 in the second. Mark Messier tallied late in the second period for 3-1 lead, while the Canucks once again cut it to a one-goal deficit. But in a tight third period before a screaming home crowd, the Rangers held on to win the elusive Cup.

1998 Daytona 500
Dale Earnhardt finally wins the big one
The winner of seven Winston Cup championships, Earnhardt had gone 0-for-19 at the Daytona 500. Before 185,000 screaming fans, Earnhardt led five times for 107 of the 200 laps, but the victory wasn't assured until John Andretti and Lake Speed tangled on lap 199. Earnhardt then takes a slow drive to Victory Lane, shaking hands and slapping high fives with dozens of crewmen from competing teams who line pit road.

1998 NBA Finals, Game 6
June 14, 1998: Chicago Bulls 87, Utah Jazz 86
Michael Jordan had many memorable games in his illustrious career, but this was his final game, and naturally, he won it with a game-winning shot. Jordan scored 45 points on a night when teammate Scottie Pippen was hindered with a bad back. After making a steal in the closing seconds, he hit the game-winning jumper with 5.2 seconds left to play, leaving Utah's Bryon Russell helpless. Jordan stutter-stepped, used a cross-over dribble to get free and drained the shot from the top of the key. The Bulls had their sixth NBA title in eight years.

1999 Ryder Cup
Sept. 26, 1999: United States 14˝, Europe 13˝
The American team staged the greatest comeback in Ryder Cup history, capped by Justin Leonard's 45-foot birdie putt on the 17th hole to clinch the victory. The Americans won 8˝ of 12 points in Sunday singles at The Country Club in Bookline, Mass. to reclaim the Cup they had lost at Valderrama two years earlier.

1. 43.6%.1980 Miracle On Ice: USA 4 USSR 3
2. 12.6% 1992 East Regional: Duke 104 Kentucky 102(OT)
3. 9.6% 1975 World Series, Game 6; Fisk's HR beats Reds in 12th
4. 7.7% 1981 AFC Playoff Game Chargers 41 Dolphins 38(OT)
5. 7.2% 1998 NBA Finals Game 6; Jordan's shot sinks Jazz
6. 6.4% 1975 Ali vs Frazier III; Ali TKO 14 in Thrilla in Manilla
7. 5.6% 1999 Ryder Cup: US wins with remarkable rally
8. 3.9% 1984 Orange Bowl: Miami 31 Nebraska 30
9. 1.8% 1994 Stanley Cup, Game 7: Rangers 3 Canucks 2
10.1.1% 1998 Daytona 500: Eanheardt finally wins the big one

Total votes: 59,757


As this notes, the Miracle on Ice was far and away voted the top game of the century. The 1958 Championship game didn't even crack the top ten here. The Miracle on Ice received 30% more votes then the second place game for greatest game of the 20th century. Not a bad statistic for the sport considered to be the "distant fourth" sport in the country. This just furthers the proof that the Miracle on Ice is the Greatest Game of all time.


Quote:
I already pointed out the flaws in your stage and audience argument. When it comes to better played I did the same and proved the 58 Championship game between the leagues top offensive and defensive teams was better.
And I in return pointed out the flaws in your stage and audience argument, using your own arguments against you and once again with factual information. I also pointed out the reasons and ways in which the Miracle on Ice was a better played game game then the mistake filled 1958 Championship Game.

Quote:
When it comes to better coached that is absolute bullshit and you know it. That is 100% subjective opinion with zero factual base on your part.
I have plenty of factual information, you just chose to ignore it. Specifically for the game against the USSR, Brooks created what became known as the "hybrid" style of playing hockey. He mixed the Russian/European puck possession and free skating style of play with the North American dump-and-chase style. In doing so, he created a fast-paced and creative style which became the cornerstone of his 1980 gold medal team. That's called creating a game plan, and specifically a system that is still used to this day. He specifically worked on conditioning so that the US could match the Russian fast-paced tempo, and the US actually outskated and outpaced the Russians as the game wore on because of this. That's called phenomenal coaching, and there's your facts.


Quote:
I have facts if you want to bring up coaching. The Colts were led by HOFer Weeb Ewbank and both of the Giants coordinators would leave the next year to become head coaches and they became two of the greatest head coaches of all time. Maybe you heard of them? Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry? Ring a bell?
This has nothing to do with the actual game and you know it. The future success of Landry and Lombardi had nothing to do with the game. Where was Landry's defensive prowess when his defense was surrendering 83 and 80 yard drives in succession to allow the Colts to tie and win the game? Where was Lombardi's offensive mastery when his team was fumbling three times and scored on a lucky bounce? The coaching in the Miracle on Ice was obviously superior, as Ive just proved. Future success means nothing in context here.

Quote:
The 58 NFL Championship game > Miracle on Ice all day long.
Its Miracle on Ice without question and Ive proved it once again brotha.
__________________
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-23-2011, 11:50 PM
Big Sexy's Avatar
Big Sexy Big Sexy is offline
Deadly Rap Cannibal
King of the Ring
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Detroit
Age: 28
Posts: 3,212
Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...Big Sexy is going to make some noise in the draft...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSN80 View Post
The bold parts that I outlined were taken directly from your opening post. You brought up the notion of attendance and viewership, not I. I simply was pointing out that the "stage" for the championship game wasn't nearly as significant as you thought that it was seeing that they couldn't even sell out the game! It's a rediculous notion to state that just because a game was played on the biggest stage possible, it makes it equal in terms of a stage as the Miracle on Ice. Both games were played in New York, with the same opportunities. The Miracle on Ice game sold out, the championship game didn't. While hockey may not be as relevant now as football, this one hockey game was more relevant then that one football game given the nature of its event and the time period in which it was played. There are many factors that go into seperating a great game from the greatest game, and stage is one of them. And the Miracle on Ice completely outclasses the 1958 championship game in terms of stage.
No. By big stage I was referring to the fact that it was the Championship Game to decide the best team in the NFL. Yes I added attendance and viewership numbers after the fact but that wasn't the main point I was making which is why if you read my opening post I put the viewership numbers AFTER talking about it being the game to decide who the best team in the league was. Nice try though. It's nice to be able to throw big attendance numbers out there but once again it isn't completely necessary and you also can't compare the stages of two events that are completely different not only in type but also in time period.



Quote:
This still doesn't account for the 10 million viewer disparity in viewership. According to the US Census Bureau, only 7.8 million households in the state of New York have a television in 2011, so that's still a disparity of over 2 million if you assume that every man, woman, and child in the state would have watched, which would have been quite the stretch. It's also a stretch to assume that the number of households with a TV in New York in 1980 is equal to the number today. Again, there's a large disparity that you simply can't account for.
Large disparity my ass and I have no clue where your 10 million person difference came from. You said the miracle on Ice had approximately 52 million people watching and I said the championship game was estimated around 45 or 50 million so that's a 7 mill disparity at the most. Take into account not just the fact that New York was blacked out but also the fact that the game was on a Sunday afternoon at 2 pm. The Miracle On Ice was in prime time. That makes a huge difference.



Quote:
The 1958 championship game also took place on a Sunday, so the 2:00 pm time is virtually negligible. It's not as if it took place during the week when people were working. The Miracle game was also aired on a Sunday in the United States, so the "prime time" factor you've noted is negligble.
That's absolute bullshit and you know it. You're telling me that major TV shows coming on Sunday at 2 pm are going to get the same ratings as ones that take place in prime time. You're out of your mind if you believe that. Yes weekend afternoon numbers will be higher then weekdays ones but they still can't compete with prime time. It's called prime time for a reason. Why do you think Fox airs their prime time cartoons on Sunday night in prime time rather then in the afternoon? Why do you think the Super Bowl is played at 6:30 and not 1 in the afternoon?


Quote:
I wasn't arguing that those factors alone made it the greatest game ever played, I argued that they were part of the equation. The underdog aspect and the moment do add to making the game the greatest game ever played, which is what is being argued here. The 1958 game doesn't have the underdog element or the overall moment that the Miracle on Ice does, once again making it inferior in determining the greatest game ever played.
The underdog aspect is very overrated in my book. The Colts vs Giants was the best offense in the league vs the best defense in the league. They had the two best records in the regular season and it's what everyone wanted to see. I'd rather watch the two very best go at it then a dominant team and an underdog.




Quote:
We could go back and forth on this for days, and we're not going to agree. Ill take the United States coming back from three deficits, including scoring a dramatic goal with one second to play at the end of the first period to tie the game and chase the greatest goalie ever to play the game. Ill take Captain Mike Eruzione stepping up and scoring the game winning goal with 10 minutes to play, and goalie Jim Craig making 36 saves including 10 in the final ten minutes.
And I'll take 12 future NFL HOF players play the most competitive championship game ever. I'll take HOF receiver Raymond Berry hauling in 12 passes for 178 yards and a td. I'll take on of the greatest qb's of all time in Johnny Unitas leading two of the best, most historic drives in NFL history to tie and then win the game.

Quote:
Ill take perhaps the greatest talent to set foot on the ice in one game over two Giant fumbles leading to a Baltimore double digit lead, which was subsequently blown on a large defensive gaffe by the Colts. The mistakes continued on a lucky fumble that bounced to the Giants and was run down to the 1 yard line. It's obvious to see that a back and forth game against the greatest hockey team ever assembled trumps a game filled with fumbles, muffed punts, defensive gaffes, and a touchdown scored on a tired defense.
The Championship game had fumbles, the Miracle on Ice had penalties that led to power play goals. The Colts made a mistake on defense on the big pass play, Mike Eruzione was left wide open in the high slot on the game winning goal. You want to play that game we can play it but it won't get you anywhere. All games have mistakes and many times it adds to the excitement. Don't act like the Miracle On ice was some perfectly played game with no flaws from anyone.


Quote:
Ill take a mistake free game that was back and forth the entire game filled with multiple comebacks over a mistake ridden game. There are a number of factors that make the Miracle on Ice a better game then the 1958 Championship game, and a well played game that was back and forth the entire game with the best player scoring the game winner in dramatic fashion is one of the biggest reasons why the Miracle on Ice trumps the 1958 Championship game. When comparing the games alone on quality of play, the Miracle on Ice is obviously superior.
Mistake free my ass. See above as to why. I mean, do you know you're typing out bull shit or do you just think no one will catch it? And how exactly is scoring the go ahead goal with 10 minutes left when you were left virtually uncovered dramatic? I'll take a two minute drive late in the 4th quarter to send the championship game into OT and then an OT game winning 80 yard drive to win the championship over that. Another factor I haven't even mentioned yet is that well the %8 Championship game was just that, a Championship game. The US vs Soviet Union wasn't even for the gold medal.



Quote:
The SI/ESPN list also included your 1958 championship game, at number 20. It pointed out the obvious factual information that while the 1958 championship game was the most important football game ever played, it was #7 within its OWN sport in terms of well played. There's no way around that. The Miracle on Ice was the top game not only within its own sport, but within ALL of team sports. Again, I used factual information to show that the Miracle on Ice was the greater game then the 1958 Championship Game.
I'm not sure where your list came from because I didn't see a link to anything, just spoiler tags, but this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SportsC...e_20th_Century

shows that ESPN Sportscentury picked the 58 Championship Game as the number game ever while the Miracle On Ice was number 4. Since you've put so much stock into this list of yours and mine actually has a link unlike yours, I guess that makes me right according to your logic.

Quote:
Here's another ESPN article regarding the greatest games of the 20th century. Note that the title is the greatest games, not moments or upsets. The final voting is at the bottom.


As this notes, the Miracle on Ice was far and away voted the top game of the century. The 1958 Championship game didn't even crack the top ten here. The Miracle on Ice received 30% more votes then the second place game for greatest game of the 20th century. Not a bad statistic for the sport considered to be the "distant fourth" sport in the country. This just furthers the proof that the Miracle on Ice is the Greatest Game of all time.


First off, again there's no link just spoiler tags around what is supposedly an ESPN article but I'm actually going to let it go this time. Want to know why? Because the article is clearly showing that this was a FAN voted thing. Since when do fans that vote in an ESPN.com poll provide proof of anything? Not only that but nothing in that top 10 predates 1975. I highly doubt many people online voting on an ESPN poll have ever even seen the 58 game. I like you so I'm going to let this absolutely horrendous excuse for an argument slide but for the sake of my sanity, don't let it happen again.



Quote:
And I in return pointed out the flaws in your stage and audience argument, using your own arguments against you and once again with factual information. I also pointed out the reasons and ways in which the Miracle on Ice was a better played game game then the mistake filled 1958 Championship Game.
My opening argument
To truly be known as the greatest game it is important that it is being played on a big stage. What bigger stage then the NFL Championship game at Yankee Stadium in New York? This was the game that decided who the best team in the NFL was and it happened in front of 64,185 fans in attendance and an estimated 45 million people watching at home.

You Taking it out of context
To truly be known as the greatest game it is important that it is being played on a big stage. This was the game that decided who the best team in the NFL was and it happened in front of 64,185 fans in attendance and an estimated 45 million people watching at home

You pointed out nothing but the fact that you took my argument out of context with the stage thing and with the audience thing you just proved your lack of knowledge on the subject. Sunday afternoon should draw the same as prime time? Really?



Quote:
I have plenty of factual information, you just chose to ignore it. Specifically for the game against the USSR, Brooks created what became known as the "hybrid" style of playing hockey. He mixed the Russian/European puck possession and free skating style of play with the North American dump-and-chase style. In doing so, he created a fast-paced and creative style which became the cornerstone of his 1980 gold medal team. That's called creating a game plan, and specifically a system that is still used to this day. He specifically worked on conditioning so that the US could match the Russian fast-paced tempo, and the US actually outskated and outpaced the Russians as the game wore on because of this. That's called phenomenal coaching, and there's your facts.
Yes, facts that you failed to talk about until just now. Good thing I was here to remind you to talk about them. I also fail to see how Brooks good game plan means the coaching in the Miracle on Ice was better then the 58 Championship Game. I'll take three HOF coaches on the sidelines over one coaches good game plan.




Quote:
This has nothing to do with the actual game and you know it. The future success of Landry and Lombardi had nothing to do with the game. Where was Landry's defensive prowess when his defense was surrendering 83 and 80 yard drives in succession to allow the Colts to tie and win the game? Where was Lombardi's offensive mastery when his team was fumbling three times and scored on a lucky bounce? The coaching in the Miracle on Ice was obviously superior, as Ive just proved. Future success means nothing in context here.
So you're telling me that Lombardi and Landry were horrible coaches yet somehow got head coaching jobs the very next year? Landry's defense held the best offense in the league to just 17 regulation points. Lombardi's offense struggled with turnovers but since when is that on the coach? The Patriots played like shit against the Jets in the playoffs this year does that make Bill Belichick a horrible coach? You've again proven nothing other then the fact that Brooks had a good strategy for Team USA. Obviously HOF coach Weeb Ewbank had a good strategy for the Colts as well because they won the game.

Quote:
Its Miracle on Ice without question and Ive proved it once again brotha.
You've proven nothing but the fact that you're good at making nonsensical arguments.
__________________

Last edited by Big Sexy : 02-24-2011 at 12:16 AM.
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:05 AM.

monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"
Contact Us - Clear Cookies - Lost Password - WrestleZone Forums - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Top - AdChoices