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  #11  
Old 01-26-2011, 07:59 PM
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This is another one I have a distinct problem with. It's incredibly impressive for a pitcher to throw consecutive no-hitters, and 3 in a row would be very difficult. That would equate to 27 innings of baseball allowing no hits. While it didn't count as more then one no-hitter, Cy Young had 24 hitless innings from the 3rd inning April 25, through the 6th inning on May 11, 1904. That equates to over two games, total, of hitless baseball. While they weren't done in the form of no-hitters, the total number of hitless innings in a row equated to more then 2 no hit games. More recently, Mark Beuhrle came within 3 innings of consecutive perfect games with 15 straight perfect innings. Seeing how this record has been approached before, it's not inconceivable that a pitcher could equal or top it as well.
The problem is you're looking at no hitters completely wrong. While the point about people being only a certain number of assists or hits away is a valid one, you can't make the same case for no hitters, because they are all or nothing. You can't say so and so was pitched this many consecutive no hit innings, that isn't the feat. The feat is consecutive no hitters, which is completely different from consecutive no hit innings. It is a far, far more difficult task. In addition, there is an infinitely greater amount of pressure when an actual no hitter is on the line. And like you said in your post, baseball is more "hitter friendly" than ever, especially with the slight decrease of long balls over the last few years base hits are all the rage.

Despite all of your claims of people that have come close, no one has even gotten 2 no hitters in a row, when they need 3 for the record. That is, no one has even accomplised more than 33% of what it takes to break Vander Meer's record.
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  #12  
Old 01-26-2011, 08:28 PM
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The problem is you're looking at no hitters completely wrong. While the point about people being only a certain number of assists or hits away is a valid one, you can't make the same case for no hitters, because they are all or nothing. You can't say so and so was pitched this many consecutive no hit innings, that isn't the feat. The feat is consecutive no hitters, which is completely different from consecutive no hit innings. It is a far, far more difficult task. In addition, there is an infinitely greater amount of pressure when an actual no hitter is on the line. And like you said in your post, baseball is more "hitter friendly" than ever, especially with the slight decrease of long balls over the last few years base hits are all the rage.

Despite all of your claims of people that have come close, no one has even gotten 2 no hitters in a row, when they need 3 for the record. That is, no one has even accomplised more than 33% of what it takes to break Vander Meer's record.
Im not looking at this all wrong, as I see that Vander Meer's record is quite a valid one, and quite the difficult task. My point in bringing up Buerhle was that he was 3 innings away from tying that very record, which isn't that far off. It doesn't matter that he only had one no hitter in a row, he was within 3 innings of completing the extremely difficult task before falling apart. Vander Meer's record is among the most impressive and unbreakable records, without question. Ill even concede that noone has come within 33% of breaking his record, but 269 have come within 50% of tying it. The possibility is there.

What makes Cy Young's record of 749 complete games more impressive is that among active players, Roy Halladay is closest at 58. That puts him 691 behind Young, at age 33. That's only 12.7% of the way towards tying the record. Of any record listed, it's easily the most unbreakable, both mathematically and realistically.
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Old 01-26-2011, 08:35 PM
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Im not looking at this all wrong, as I see that Vander Meer's record is quite a valid one, and quite the difficult task. My point in bringing up Buerhle was that he was 3 innings away from tying that very record, which isn't that far off. It doesn't matter that he only had one no hitter in a row, he was within 3 innings of completing the extremely difficult task before falling apart. Vander Meer's record is among the most impressive and unbreakable records, without question. Ill even concede that noone has come within 33% of breaking his record, but 269 have come within 50% of tying it. The possibility is there.

What makes Cy Young's record of 749 complete games more impressive is that among active players, Roy Halladay is closest at 58. That puts him 691 behind Young, at age 33. That's only 12.7% of the way towards tying the record. Of any record listed, it's easily the most unbreakable, both mathematically and realistically.
We're about to get real hypothetical here, but stay with me. With all the new technology and medical junk and whatnot, isn't it possible that we'll eventually get to a point where pitchers could be pitching 3 times a week, and pitching the whole games at that. Of course, I have no basis for this, but it is a possiblity that in 100 or maybe 200 years the rules of the game and technology are likely going to be completely different that they are nowadays, making it much more possible to break a record such as Young's, which takes endurance more than anything. Endurance can be increased by various factors over time.

With Vander Meer's, you'll need an incredible amount of luck more than anything. Regardless of how many years in the future we look, no one is going to be able to manipulate luck.
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  #14  
Old 01-26-2011, 09:10 PM
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The thing with Vander Meer's record is that it is short. Realistically, while it would take three consecutive no hitters to break the record, pitching two consecutive no hitters would obviously tie it, and tying a record of this nature would largely discredit its significance. So any time any guy pitches a no hitter, he's half way there. I'm not suggesting pitching back to back no hitters would be easy to do, but let's face it, if Buerhle can make a decent run at it, it has to be inevitable that someone will do it someday. Strasburg, Halladay, pick a name. Sure the game has become more hitter friendly, but there are still stadiums which are notoriously pitcher friendly. Put a quality starter into one of these stadiums during a hot streak, and back to back no-no's can definitely occur.

In contrast, who is going to come along and challenge Rose's feat? The closest active player is over 1200 hits behind him and he's clearly in the twilight of his career, despite what his recent contract would suggest. I cannot think of one guy who is currently playing that I think would have even a remote chance to come anywhere near Pete Rose. Look at the names of the retired guys who had legendary Hall of Fame careers who finished a thousand hits off the pace, give or take. Think about it. 21 consecutive seasons of 200 hits. We'll never see it. For some 18 year old hot shot to come along, hit 200 hits, and then do it 20 more times, in a row, I just cannot see it ever happening.

Cy Young's records are safe and likely unbreakable because the change in the way MLB is played won't allow anyone to even have a shot at it. This demeans the record in my opinion. Sure it makes it unbreakable, but I am more impressed by a statistic which the modern game could potentially allow, but still won't happen. Hitters today still play the same number of games. They still have the same number of at bats as ever. The dimensions of the ballpark have not changed, the way defense is played is the same, so technically speaking, some guy should be able to come along and have a shot. Except it will never happen.

Pete Rose's career hit total is safe. So are Cy Young's records. To me, Rose's record is more impressive and every bit as unbreakable.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:17 PM
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The thing with Vander Meer's record is that it is short. Realistically, while it would take three consecutive no hitters to break the record, pitching two consecutive no hitters would obviously tie it, and tying a record of this nature would largely discredit its significance. So any time any guy pitches a no hitter, he's half way there. I'm not suggesting pitching back to back no hitters would be easy to do, but let's face it, if Buerhle can make a decent run at it, it has to be inevitable that someone will do it someday. Strasburg, Halladay, pick a name. Sure the game has become more hitter friendly, but there are still stadiums which are notoriously pitcher friendly. Put a quality starter into one of these stadiums during a hot streak, and back to back no-no's can definitely occur.
If someoen ties it, it is not broken. The question is most unbreakable, and 3 no hitters in a row is just ludicrous. As I showed with the stats, the odds of Nolan Ryan throwing 3 straight no hitters were well over a million to one and he was the best of the best when it comes to no hitters. Realisitically, the probablitily is much less.

But yeah, breaking the record would require 3 no hitters, not 2. Let's get that straight.
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:23 PM
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If someoen ties it, it is not broken. The question is most unbreakable, and 3 no hitters in a row is just ludicrous. As I showed with the stats, the odds of Nolan Ryan throwing 3 straight no hitters were well over a million to one and he was the best of the best when it comes to no hitters. Realisitically, the probablitily is much less.

But yeah, breaking the record would require 3 no hitters, not 2. Let's get that straight.
Technically speaking you are correct. 2 consecutive no hitters would not actually break the record, that would take three. But I still maintain that tying the record large invalidates it. An unbreakable record is only significant if it stands alone. Someone tying it would diminish the record.

As such, if someone were to come along and stroke 4256 career base hits, that would tie Pete Rose's accomplishment. Technically it would not break it, but it would detract from the value of it. Only problem with this? It will never happen, not in a million years.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by General Disarray View Post
We're about to get real hypothetical here, but stay with me. With all the new technology and medical junk and whatnot, isn't it possible that we'll eventually get to a point where pitchers could be pitching 3 times a week, and pitching the whole games at that. Of course, I have no basis for this, but it is a possiblity that in 100 or maybe 200 years the rules of the game and technology are likely going to be completely different that they are nowadays, making it much more possible to break a record such as Young's, which takes endurance more than anything. Endurance can be increased by various factors over time..
I generally respect your opinion and like you as a fellow Steelers fan, but Im not following you here. Reason being is that baseball has progressed in a fashion that teams even go to 6 man rotations at times, and the length of careers for pitchers are quite shorter then they were 100 years ago. Any and all proof points to that trend continuing, rather then reverting back to the way things were in Young's day. Even a pitcher like Jamie Moyer who has pitched 24 years in the Major Leagues has only 33 career complete games. I understand what you were saying was purely hypothetical, but it's also extremely unrealistic.

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With Vander Meer's, you'll need an incredible amount of luck more than anything. Regardless of how many years in the future we look, no one is going to be able to manipulate luck.
I think it would take skill more then anything for this to happen. When a rookie phenom such as Stephen Strasburg debuts and 4 hits a team in said debut, he's only going to get better. With a fastball that reaches above 100 miles per hour at times, it's not completely unrealistic that a pitcher like this could use skill to break Van Der Meer's record. Im not saying it's going to happen, just proposing hypothetical's as you were.

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In contrast, who is going to come along and challenge Rose's feat? The closest active player is over 1200 hits behind him and he's clearly in the twilight of his career, despite what his recent contract would suggest. I cannot think of one guy who is currently playing that I think would have even a remote chance to come anywhere near Pete Rose. Look at the names of the retired guys who had legendary Hall of Fame careers who finished a thousand hits off the pace, give or take. Think about it. 21 consecutive seasons of 200 hits. We'll never see it. For some 18 year old hot shot to come along, hit 200 hits, and then do it 20 more times, in a row, I just cannot see it ever happening.
But Jeter hypothetically would need only 6 more seasons of 200 hits to break Rose's record. And as you said, Jeter just signed a new contract. He's at an age(36) where it's not hard to envision him playing 6 or 7 more years. If he plays at his current level, it's quite plausible that he could break Rose's record.
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Cy Young's records are safe and likely unbreakable because the change in the way MLB is played won't allow anyone to even have a shot at it. This demeans the record in my opinion. Sure it makes it unbreakable, but I am more impressed by a statistic which the modern game could potentially allow, but still won't happen. Hitters today still play the same number of games. They still have the same number of at bats as ever. The dimensions of the ballpark have not changed, the way defense is played is the same, so technically speaking, some guy should be able to come along and have a shot. Except it will never happen.

Pete Rose's career hit total is safe. So are Cy Young's records. To me, Rose's record is more impressive and every bit as unbreakable.
Chnages in baseball make Young's record even more unbreakable, so it doesn't matter if noone will have a shot at it. This isn't a debate about fairness, it's about the most unbreakable record. It has nothing to do with what is allowable within the modern game. It also doesn't matter which is more impressive, which is for another argument. We could easily debate that one as well, Habs. The only thing that matters is which record is most unbreakable, and it's easy to see that Young's record is safer then any record in the history of any sport.
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