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  #11  
Old 01-05-2011, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by tdigle View Post
Firstly, Sugar Ray Robinson's streak can correctly be classified as either an undefeated or a consecutive win streak. The fine print at boxrec.com shows that, in the two draws he had during this streak, he had the majority of points. Also, Sports Illustrated regards it as a consecutive-win streak
I think for something to be considered the most impressive winning streak of all time everyone should have the same belief about said streak. There are people out there who don't consider Robinson's streak a winning streak. His official record shows that he has 6 draws and of those 6 draws, 2 of them came during his 91 fight unbeaten streak. I'd rather go with a streak where there is no doubt in anyone's mind that it was a winning streak.
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Secondly, this is about the most-impressive streak, not the streak that lasted longer.
Exactly. And nothing is more impressive then the Lakers winning 33 straight NBA games. They didn't lose for two whole months in a sport where you are playing 3 to 4 times a week and often traveling coast to coast for games. No other professional team in sports history has had a streak like the Lakers did.

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As for the other two boxers, cross-referencing Chavez's streak opponents with the list of IBHF inductees shows that he only faced one inductee during this streak
Chavez is a newer era fighter so there may only be one opponent of his during the streak that is currently in the IBHF Hall of Fame but that doesn't mean a few more couldn't be inducted in the future. Chavez himself didn't even retire until 2005 and just got inducted in the class of 2011 a month ago.

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Originally Posted by CH David View Post
We see teams of greatness from year to year. Sometimes a Cinderella like Boise State was in the Fiesta Bowl, coincidentally against the Sooners. However, for three full years and parts of five, the Oklahoma Sooners did what pros couldn't and likely won't do, and what others have tried and failed at.
1. A team like Boise State back in 1950's college football really had no chance of existing. It was a much different game back then.

2. The college and pro football games are completely different so the comparison there doesn't really mean much. It means even less because we are talking about 1950's college football.
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Some perspective on the teams they played. They weren't easy games either in the Big 7 (at the time) or non-conference either way. I know I have the list above but the rankings aren't listed. Look at both if necessary.
This shows me that in a 47 game winning streak, Oklahoma only played 9 ranked teams. When Miami and USC had their 34 game winning streaks they played more ranked teams and did it in 13 less games. Miami played 12 ranked teams and USC 10 in their respective winning streaks. Let's also not forget the fact that back in the 50's there were only a handful of Bowl Games and even if you were a nationally recognized team and went undefeated, you weren't guaranteed a bowl game. Not only that, but there was no National Championship game so even if you were in a bowl game it wasn't necessarily against the 1st or 2nd best team in the country. Oklahoma played in the Orange Bowl in 1953 and 1955 during their streak, but in 1954 and 1956 they did not play in a bowl game. Miami and USC both lost their streaks in the National Championship game of their second full undefeated season. Oklahoma never had to face that type of competition because there just wasn't as much parody.

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The streak speaks for itself. Teams can lose on any given day, we saw that with Michigan and Appalachian State a few years ago. Oklahoma spent over 4 seasons undefeated, in parts of 5 years.
Once again, times are different in college football. Things like App State beating Michigan rarely happen now and back in the 50's they NEVER happened. It was a totally different game back then.

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Originally Posted by noahconstrictor View Post
To Big Sexy: I'm sorry, but to me, that streak doesn't mean much.
I couldn't give a fuck less what it means to you. What it means to the sports world and the history of sports is what matters and anyone who follows sports closely, and knows what they are talking about, will tell you that the Lakers 33 game winning streak is easily one of the most impressive ever, and many will tell you that it is THE most impressive ever.

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And just because it's the longest streak in the Big 4 leagues doesn't give it much. It couldn't happen in hockey, just because hockey is by nature, a sport that doesn't help winning streaks. The longest for hockey is 17 by the Penguins. It couldn't happen in baseball for the same reason. The record for baseball is 26, and it happened in 1916 with the New York Giants
. And there is no way in hell that an NFL team could win 33 games in a row, because they would have to go undefeated for 2 straight seasons, and then some.
Actually it could happen in all of those sports it is just highly unlikely. However, it's also highly unlikely in the NBA and that is what makes this streak so impressive. The Lakers did something that seems impossible. They did something that no one before them ever did and no one since them has been able to repeat. You've given your personal opinion on the Lakers streak that you don't think it means much but you have backed up that opinion with absolutely no facts.

People's Peep, don't think I forgot about you. I already had an entire section in my first post dedicated to the UConn women's and UCLA men's streaks so you can find my thoughts on that streak there.
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  #12  
Old 01-05-2011, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Sexy View Post
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There have been many impressive winning streaks in the history of sports on both the collegiate and professional levels. The most impressive of these streaks is the 33 game winning streak by the LA Lakers during the 1971-72 NBA season. The streak to this day is the longest winning streak in the history of major American professional team sports and team sport streaks are more impressive then individual ones.
You've given absolutely no proof or argument whatsoever that team streaks are better than individual streaks. I'll even counter this claim right here, right now, by saying that individuals streaks are more impressive because, in individual competition, there's no one an athlete can rely on but himself, whether it be in boxing, MMA, running, or cycling. Participants in team sports rarely, if ever, face an end-all, be-all situation; if they have an off-day, one of their teammates can temporarily pick up the slack.

Now, let's get to the rest of your argument.

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The Streak

They won 33 games in a row. Think about that. In the NBA you play an 82 game schedule and are usually playing 3-4 games every week. It's very easy to slip up and lose a game, but the Lakers were able to go for two months without losing one. They weren’t exactly playing bottom feeders every night either. 19 of the 33 games they won during the streak were against teams that either made the playoffs or had a winning record at the end of the season.
15 of their wins came against teams with winning records while 18 of them came against teams with losing records. The NFL's not the only place where losers can end up in the playoffs.

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Competition Level

You can talk all you want about the competitiveness of the NBA when the Lakers had their streak but the league at that point was very competitive. From the 1958-59 season to the 1968-69 season, only two teams won the NBA title. The Celtics won it 10 times and the 76ers won it once. However, for the next 10 seasons from 1969-70 to 1978-79 there were 8 different teams that won the title. Parody in the league was alive and well during the Lakers streak.
Take a look at the NBA Finals over a ten-year period with the 1972 championship series being the last taken into account: from 1963 to 1972, the Lakers went to the finals 7 times. The Celtics went to the finals seven times during this time period as well, four times going up against the Lakers. When only two teams account for 70% of the participation slots for the NBA Finals during a ten-year period, I'd hardly call that a competitive situation.

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Streak in Perspective

I’d also like to put even more in perspective how impressive the Lakers streak was. During the Celtics run of dominance in the NBA throughout the 50’s and 60’s, the longest winning streak they put together was just 17 games. That’s barely half of what the Lakers streak was.
The closest any other NBA team has come to the Lakers were the Rockets of the '07-'08 season. Percentage-wise, they played the same proportion of losing teams during this streak as the Lakers did during their 33-win streak.

You could argue that this would make their streaks even in terms of impressiveness, but this doesn't take into account how much more competitive the NBA has become since the 1970s with franchise expansion and greater utilization of non-American talent.

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Comparison to Other Pro Team Winning Streaks

Only 3 other NBA teams have even been able to reach at least 20 straight wins and the second longest streak is still 11 games behind at 22 and that was done a few years ago by the Rockets. Looking at the other 3 major professional team sports you have a 17 game winning streak by the Penguins in the NHL in 1993. In the NFL the Patriots had a 21 game winning streak combining regular season and playoffs from 2003-2004 and the Colts had a 23 game regular season winning streak from 2008-2009. In MLB the New York Giants have the longest win streak at 26 games and that happened all the way back in 1916 and included a tie. The longest MLB win streak without a tie is 21 games by the Cubs in 1935. As you can see, with the exception of the 1916 Giants in MLB, all of these streaks are at least 10 games short of what he Lakers did.
I'm not sure about the MLB, but the NBA incidence of injury is laughable in comparison to that in the NFL and NHL. Given the substantially greater amount of risk faced in the NFL and NHL, any streaks considered within these leagues should be given a premium. Thus, comparing the Lakers streak to any streak in the NFL or NHL is neither apt nor fair.

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Comparison to Other College Team Winning Streaks

Another argument I know will come up is “what about UCLA and UConn in men’s and women’s college basketball?” Those streaks are impressive no doubt but the parody just wasn’t there during UCLA’s streak and isn’t there now with UConn’s streak that just ended. UCLA was THE dominant team in college basketball for a good 12 year period at the end of John Wooden’s run there. They had the best coach in the country and got all of the top recruits. UConn is in a very similar position now in Women’s college basketball. There just aren’t many teams out there that can compete with them, let alone beat them when they’re at their best. It isn’t a coincidence that both UCLA and UConn’s streaks ended with a loss to the same teams that had beaten them last before their respective streaks started.
Everything here you're saying about UCLA Men's Basketball and UConn's Women's Basketball could also be said about the Lakers team you're defending. They WERE a dominant team up until and through the 1971-1972 season. Furthermore, the '71-'72 Lakers had three future Hall of Fame starters (Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, and Gail Goodrich); the Lakers were hardly hurting for talent when they made their run.
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  #13  
Old 01-05-2011, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Sexy View Post
I think for something to be considered the most impressive winning streak of all time everyone should have the same belief about said streak. There are people out there who don't consider Robinson's streak a winning streak. His official record shows that he has 6 draws and of those 6 draws, 2 of them came during his 91 fight unbeaten streak. I'd rather go with a streak where there is no doubt in anyone's mind that it was a winning streak.
Fair enough. However, I'm going to go with the professionals at Sports Illustrated who live and breathe sports journalism; I think their credibility and reputation are going to outweigh those of anyone who claims themselves to be an authority on boxing history with no experience save for Internet/blog journalism.


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Exactly. And nothing is more impressive then the Lakers winning 33 straight NBA games. They didn't lose for two whole months in a sport where you are playing 3 to 4 times a week and often traveling coast to coast for games. No other professional team in sports history has had a streak like the Lakers did.
And this is why I decided to defend Sugar Ray Robinson's win streak instead of that of any other boxer. Other streaks may match the quantity of Robinson's, but none match its quality.


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Chavez is a newer era fighter so there may only be one opponent of his during the streak that is currently in the IBHF Hall of Fame but that doesn't mean a few more couldn't be inducted in the future. Chavez himself didn't even retire until 2005 and just got inducted in the class of 2011 a month ago.
Save for Hector Camacho, I'd say it does. The vast majority of Chavez's opponents are retired and eligible for the IBHF. In fact, the man that he went to his first draw with, Pernell Whitaker, was inducted a few years before he was. Once Camacho retires (or becomes eligible for the IBHF), I think that's the only person from Chavez's list of streak opponents that has a shot at being inducted.
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Old 01-05-2011, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by tdigle View Post
You've given absolutely no proof or argument whatsoever that team streaks are better than individual streaks. I'll even counter this claim right here, right now, by saying that individuals streaks are more impressive because, in individual competition, there's no one an athlete can rely on but himself, whether it be in boxing, MMA, running, or cycling. Participants in team sports rarely, if ever, face an end-all, be-all situation; if they have an off-day, one of their teammates can temporarily pick up the slack.
When it comes to team streaks it takes a collective effort. One player doesn't win in the NBA or any team sport as evidence by the Jordan led Bulls before Pippen got there and the LeBron led Cavaliers. Also guys like Ovechkin with the Capitals and Peyton Manning didn't get a title until he got a defense. With individual streaks the only person you rely on is yourself like you said. If you are the best at what you do then you are expected to go out on a nightly basis and always win. Teammates can let each other down because it takes a team effort to win in team sports. Individuals don't have that problem.
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15 of their wins came against teams with winning records while 18 of them came against teams with losing records. The NFL's not the only place where losers can end up in the playoffs.
No it isn't but you're still showing that nearly half of their streak came against teams that had winning records. Obviously you aren't going to be able to face teams with a winning record every night but that still doesn't take away from impressiveness of the streak. They went 2 months without losing and about every other game they were doing it against teams with winning records. I'll repeat again, no other pro team has EVER done what they did.

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Take a look at the NBA Finals over a ten-year period with the 1972 championship series being the last taken into account: from 1963 to 1972, the Lakers went to the finals 7 times. The Celtics went to the finals seven times during this time period as well, four times going up against the Lakers. When only two teams account for 70% of the participation slots for the NBA Finals during a ten-year period, I'd hardly call that a competitive situation.
The streak didn't even take place until 71-72. If this happened in the 60's I may be more inclined to agree with you but by the 70's there was far more parody then there ever had been and I showed that with the ten year period where 8 different teams won the NBA title. The Lakers streak was a few years into that period.

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The closest any other NBA team has come to the Lakers were the Rockets of the '07-'08 season. Percentage-wise, they played the same proportion of losing teams during this streak as the Lakers did during their 33-win streak.
And still fell a full 11 games. 22 is a big number but the fact that they were still double digit wins away from breaking the streak is remarkable. The Rockets were also only the second team to even break the 20 win mark.

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I'm not sure about the MLB, but the NBA incidence of injury is laughable in comparison to that in the NFL and NHL. Given the substantially greater amount of risk faced in the NFL and NHL, any streaks considered within these leagues should be given a premium. Thus, comparing the Lakers streak to any streak in the NFL or NHL is neither apt nor fair.
The NHL plays the same schedule as the NBA and injuries happen on just as consistent of a basis. Especially in the old NBA basketball is a much more physically demanding sport then most people give it credit for. The NFL is a lot more physical yes, but with a 16 game schedule they also don't have to finish the streak all in just one season.

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Everything here you're saying about UCLA Men's Basketball and UConn's Women's Basketball could also be said about the Lakers team you're defending. They WERE a dominant team up until and through the 1971-1972 season. Furthermore, the '71-'72 Lakers had three future Hall of Fame starters (Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, and Gail Goodrich); the Lakers were hardly hurting for talent when they made their run.
Up until the 71-72 season the Lakers hadn't won a title since the early 50's when they were still in Minneapolis so well they were a great team I can't consider a team that hadn't won the title dominant. They also may have had 3 HOFers but Chamberlain at the time was 35 years old and his numbers showed that he was certainly on the down side of his career. Jerry West was 33 years old at the time though he still put up great numbers.

Let's also look at their competition. The Knicks had 6 HOFers, the Bucks had 2, the C's were still a great team led by HOFer Dave Cowens, GS had one HOFer and they also had a great player in Cazzie Russell. One of the losing teams you mentioned that made the playoffs was the ATL Hawks who had two HOFers in Pete maravich and Walt Bellamy. The other losing team that made the playoffs was baltimore and they were led by HOFer Wes Unsled. With only 17 teams in the league talent couldn't be spread around as much and teams like the 50's and 60's Celtics were no longer in existence. Parody was alive and well in the NBA.
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Old 01-05-2011, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by tdigle View Post
Fair enough. However, I'm going to go with the professionals at Sports Illustrated who live and breathe sports journalism; I think their credibility and reputation are going to outweigh those of anyone who claims themselves to be an authority on boxing history with no experience save for Internet/blog journalism.
His pro record has 6 draws on it. Two of them came during the streak and those two fights are not counted as wins on his official record.

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And this is why I decided to defend Sugar Ray Robinson's win streak instead of that of any other boxer. Other streaks may match the quantity of Robinson's, but none match its quality.
The Lakers streak easily matches the quality. They went out every night for two months and didn't lose, often going up against great teams and teams with future HOFers on the roster.

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Save for Hector Camacho, I'd say it does. The vast majority of Chavez's opponents are retired and eligible for the IBHF. In fact, the man that he went to his first draw with, Pernell Whitaker, was inducted a few years before he was. Once Camacho retires (or becomes eligible for the IBHF), I think that's the only person from Chavez's list of streak opponents that has a shot at being inducted.
That's still two HOF boxers and a ton of former/current champions that he defeated in his streak. Looking at Robinson's 9 HOF opponent victories. 4 of them came against the same guy so it's obvious he had his number. Who knows where Chavez's HOF win total would be had there been more rematches with the top guys he faced
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Old 01-05-2011, 12:21 PM
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Another argument I know will come up is “what about UCLA and UConn in men’s and women’s college basketball?” Those streaks are impressive no doubt but the parody just wasn’t there during UCLA’s streak and isn’t there now with UConn’s streak that just ended. UCLA was THE dominant team in college basketball for a good 12 year period at the end of John Wooden’s run there. They had the best coach in the country and got all of the top recruits. UConn is in a very similar position now in Women’s college basketball. There just aren’t many teams out there that can compete with them, let alone beat them when they’re at their best. It isn’t a coincidence that both UCLA and UConn’s streaks ended with a loss to the same teams that had beaten them last before their respective streaks started.
Yeah, the parody in Women's basketball isnt the same as it was in the NBA nor is it close to levels today. But when you look at Women's basketball by itself, the parody is still the best its ever been for that sport. The sport hasnt had the same amount of time to develop as other sports had. That makes it hard, and almost unfair to compare the two.

Also, whats wrong with dominating? I think that makes the streak that more impressive. When you look unstoppable for over two years, thats incredible. I think a streak of dominating opponents is better than one where you're pulling out last second wins and just barely getting the W.

One more thing to think about when comparing the UConn and Lakers streak. The Lakers streak was during one year. The same 5 starters every game, barring injury of course. The UConn streak was over several years, where players left and new ones came in, changing the dynamic of the team, and they still won.

To Tdigs: I dont know much about boxing. I actually kind of hate the sport. But even when I, a guy who watches sports just about 24/7, looked at the list of guys he faced, I only recognized one name. Other than that, there isnt much I can say about your choice.

I'll try and get to the others later.
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Old 01-05-2011, 05:07 PM
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I know this isn't going to the popular choice but Carl Hubbel of the New York Giants. He won 24 consecutive decisions, which I believe is the longest ever in baseball for a pitcher. The Streak started July 17th 1936 and it ended May 30th, 1937.

There really isn't even much to write but he dominated the league. Winning 2 starts in a row is tough, this pitcher won 24. It's pretty much a team accomplishment too. The team had to produce and Hubbel had to do his job. The streak is impressive he won 16 consecutive starts in 1936 and his first 8 in 1937. He had no bad games which is impressive. This streak has never been touched and I don't believe it's going to with how the game progresses as the years go by with the extra pitchers like relievers and set up guys. Hubbels work was the work of a genius. His winning streak is impressive because it only takes one bad pitch to turn a game around.

There have been some impressive winning streaks like the Uconn women, UCLA men, even the consecutive game win streak by the Oklahoma Sooners. But those accomplishments are solely team accomplishments, not individual ones like Hubbels pretty much was...
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Old 01-05-2011, 05:17 PM
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Jeffue, the one big flaw in your streak is that it is broken up by 2 years. If it had happened in one year, I would be a lot more impressive. But winning 16 in a row one year, and 8 in a row another year is not as impressive as 24 in a row in one year. Plus, he did it in the 1930's, a time where you could still cheat and get away with it in baseball. Who's to say he didn't throw a spitball or 2? Add in the fact that baseball was not a high scoring game back in, and this streak's credibility dissolves.
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Old 01-05-2011, 06:37 PM
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Yeah, the parody in Women's basketball isnt the same as it was in the NBA nor is it close to levels today. But when you look at Women's basketball by itself, the parody is still the best its ever been for that sport. The sport hasnt had the same amount of time to develop as other sports had. That makes it hard, and almost unfair to compare the two.
I'll agree there may be more parody then there used to be, but the parody still is not good enough for me to consider their streak the most impressive ever.

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Also, whats wrong with dominating? I think that makes the streak that more impressive. When you look unstoppable for over two years, thats incredible. I think a streak of dominating opponents is better than one where you're pulling out last second wins and just barely getting the W.
There's nothing wrong with dominating but part of the reason they were dominating is because of the caliber of players they have compared to everyone else. UConn more often then not is getting multiple of the top recruits in the country every year, especially recently. I'll take the Lakers winning some close NBA games over UConn blowing some teams out in women's college basketball any day.

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One more thing to think about when comparing the UConn and Lakers streak. The Lakers streak was during one year. The same 5 starters every game, barring injury of course. The UConn streak was over several years, where players left and new ones came in, changing the dynamic of the team, and they still won.
The UConn streak was mainly over two seasons and then 12 games to start this year and obviously the streak ended this year. In the two full undefeated seasons UConn had almost the exact same roster. They only lost 3 seniors from the 2008-2009 team to the 2009-2010 team and of those 3 seniors, only one of them played major minutes. The other two were end of the bench reserves who averaged 7.4 and 3.8 minutes per game respectively. Renee Montgomery was the one good senior they lost and they had two players that helped replace her. Caroline Doty was a returning sophomore who had only played in 17 games as a freshmen due to injury. They also had a top recruit in freshmen Kelly Faris who played some key reserve minutes. The two teams that had 78 of the 90 wins were virtually one in the same.
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Old 01-05-2011, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by noahconstrictor View Post
Jeffue, the one big flaw in your streak is that it is broken up by 2 years. If it had happened in one year, I would be a lot more impressive. But winning 16 in a row one year, and 8 in a row another year is not as impressive as 24 in a row in one year. Plus, he did it in the 1930's, a time where you could still cheat and get away with it in baseball. Who's to say he didn't throw a spitball or 2? Add in the fact that baseball was not a high scoring game back in, and this streak's credibility dissolves.
Who cares? That's still 24 consecutive wins. He did it in 27 starts, had 3 no decisions. Which is still impressive. He was able to have the longevity over a year, he didn't let the streak get to him on his time off and what not and he stilled pitched exceptionally well. And your cheating thing is ridiculous. People are always going to cheat in sports. Some just don't happen to get caught. Some forms of cheating are not that big of a deal and throwing an illegal pitch isn't that big of a deal. It's like taking away the 56 game hit streak from Joe Dimaggio because he could have been taking steroids. That's just absurd. It was a consecutive win streak that will not be touched for quite some time. There are no holes in the streak. UCLA won 88 games over a certain time period, but lets not count that because they didn't do it in one year? Yeah that's what I thought, it doesn't work that way big guy...
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