WWE & TNA Forum
Wrestling News
Loading...


Go Back   WrestleZone Forums > Non-Wrestling Non Spam Sections > The WrestleZone Symposium
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Arcade vBookie

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 08-10-2016, 09:38 PM
It's Damn Real!'s Avatar
It's Damn Real! It's Damn Real! is offline
The undisputed, undefeated TNA &
WWE Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Age: 33
Posts: 4,897
It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack-Hammer View Post
Sure, religion is a part of it. Whether or not the terrorists are actually following doctrine is up for debate because some say they are, some say they're not, some say they're using a mix of actual religious doctrine along with some of their own. Regardless of what I believe or don't believe, the terrorists have stated that their faith is one of the key motivating factors and whether it's actual legit Islamic doctrine or not makes no real difference to them.

If the various media reports are true, then a very hefty portion of Islamic extremists are very poor, uneducated and sometimes flat out illiterate people that the higher ups in the organizations actively want because they make excellent grist for the mill, so to speak; these are the sort of people that are easier to indoctrinate because of their lack of education and make great foot soldiers.
A significant percentage of Muslims are poor, uneducated and often illiterate (an estimated 40%), but the evidence actually suggests otherwise regarding extremists (Jihadists and Islamists). They are actually educated and literate and are rarely impoverished. Most come from wealthy families and even attend universities.


This is from 2005, but there are more recent updates that show it still holds true: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/14/op...myth.html?_r=0
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayne
The IWC aren't a real group, just an internal conglomoration of the people who say things you don't like.
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-10-2016, 10:40 PM
HBK-aholic's Avatar
HBK-aholic HBK-aholic is offline
Shawn Michaels ♥
Undisputed WWE Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 6,876
HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by It's Damn Real! View Post
So you quote me in a manner that appears to assign these responses to me, but didn't mean to, and didn't explicitly state that you were addressing statements or issues I didn't make? And I'm supposed to infer all of this correctly, what, by mind-reading?
Surely my response to a point you didn't make is enough for you to infer that I wasn't aiming that specific statement at you? I replied to your post, because you replied to me, but none of my posts are attacking you, they're attacking Islamophobia. I thought we were having a discussion about issues, and were mature enough to not turn it into 'But I didn't say that!' argument. So, disclaimer, this is a discussion, not an attack on you specifically.


Quote:
I'm not going to get into a scripture war with you here. The texts and passages are quite clear on prescribing violence, and the Hadith are even worse. ISIS throwing gays from rooftops? That comes from various Hadith that mandate to take homosexuals to the highest cliffs and throw them from them. If you want to skirt around that by claiming they "misinterpreted" it, by all means, but you're deluding yourself.
I also don't want to get into a scripture war, partly because I'll admit to not having read a majority of it, but that same Qu'ran also argues for peace, states that no one should be forced to live by Islamic law, calls to love members of other faiths, and expressly forbids killing another soul. As I said, there are hundreds of ways to criticise the religion, it is full of contradictions, and I have no issues with that being said. My issues begin when people state Islam is the cause of terrorism, or when they assume all Muslims are terrorists who hate the Western world. If you don't believe that, then we agree.


Quote:
Is this another example of you addressing me, directly, but not actually addressing me? You responded to me, directly, and said “You see the ridiculousness in my analogy, but not in what the media does every day to Muslims”. This insinuates that I don’t blame the media for their portrayal of Muslims — something I have yet to provide an opinion on. Hence the strawman.
I specifically asked what your thoughts and solutions were - you quoted it with the phrase "you're erecting to attack instead of actually asking me what my actual positions and opinions are." - When I did just that. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

I however apologise for assuming your thoughts on the media.

Quote:
Sure, in the most colloquial sense, but as I said in the OP and repeatedly since in my responses to you, I can’t provide my solutions/opinions in a manner in which I feel we can debate them reasonably if you we can’t even agree that religion shoulders some of the blame. Because my solutions are going to account for that, which means they’re going to be side-stepped in defense of the religion in spite of the evidence.

I even said in the OP that this isn’t about attacking religion. It’s about about having an honest discussion about a real world problem that we cannot have any hope of curing if the conversation always begins with obfuscations about the core nature of the issue, which is religious in nature. The religious aspect has to be up for scrutiny, or every effort at problem solving is futile.
Not in defence of the religion. In defence of the billions of Muslim's who do not agree with the extremism yet have their lives tarnished with that brush. You keep saying we need to have a frank discussion about this, without fear of offending - in my OP I agreed, but with so many uneducated people, so many people listening to Fox News, and Donald Trump, you also have to be loud about stating that the vast majority of Muslims do not believe this, do not want this, and disagree completely with the terrorism. And I've yet to see a solution which doesn't vilify them. And you apparently have one, but refuse to share it, because someone might disagree.
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-10-2016, 11:07 PM
Mighty NorCal's Avatar
Mighty NorCal Mighty NorCal is offline
SHALL WE BEGIN?
Wrestlezone Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Velen
Posts: 8,769
Mighty NorCal is a WWE Champion...Mighty NorCal is a WWE Champion...Mighty NorCal is a WWE Champion...Mighty NorCal is a WWE Champion...Mighty NorCal is a WWE Champion...Mighty NorCal is a WWE Champion...Mighty NorCal is a WWE Champion...Mighty NorCal is a WWE Champion...Mighty NorCal is a WWE Champion...Mighty NorCal is a WWE Champion...Mighty NorCal is a WWE Champion...
Default

Of course the majority of western Muslims don't agree with this shit, but that doesn't mean that the extremism (which more less is actually fundamentalism) isn't based in the religion.

The only difference is how literally one is to take the things in scripture, and go about carrying them out. ISIS points to tons of scripture when if taken literally justifies them (in their mind) . Every faith or ideaology has done this in large numbers at points in their history, and many would right this second if they could get away with it.

If you doubt that, catch a Donald Trump rally or watch the republican primary debates some time
__________________
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-11-2016, 12:42 AM
yourdamnluck's Avatar
yourdamnluck yourdamnluck is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 155
yourdamnluck is looking to come up from OCW...
Default

The problem is, even the most liberal and modern muslim treat their women like shit because its in their religion. They tell them what to wear, what to do and what not. muslim women live like slaves with zero choice because islam says so.

Even the most liberal and western muslims don't believe that there is any true religion but The religion of terror.
And of course you can see how well minorities are protected in muslim majority nations.
The most liberal and peaceful muslim nation, Indonesia shoves fingers up women's vagina(virginity test) before recruiting them.

Rapes and forced marriages of hindu minor girls in pakistan are very common and these always goes unpunished because it's legal in islam to rape the minor girl that you forcefully married.

They stick ardently to all their ridiculous customs. Who's to say they won't start killing people en masse because koran says 'kill the non believers'.
Muslims are like the daleks they'll exterminate anything that's not them.
And that scares me.
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-11-2016, 07:42 AM
JGlass's Avatar
JGlass JGlass is offline
Unregistered User
Mr. Money in the Bank
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Jersey
Age: 27
Posts: 2,034
JGlass is a United States Champion...JGlass is a United States Champion...JGlass is a United States Champion...JGlass is a United States Champion...JGlass is a United States Champion...JGlass is a United States Champion...JGlass is a United States Champion...JGlass is a United States Champion...JGlass is a United States Champion...JGlass is a United States Champion...JGlass is a United States Champion...
Default

A few things.

First... they flat out say that the reason they do what they do is because of various tenets of Islam... who the fuck are you to say that they aren't really? I mean damn, how belittling is that to Muslim people that you think you know their religion better than they do.

Second, I've long struggled to understand why it's so important for people to make sure that it is understood that ISIS is Islamic. Yes, this particular group of crazies are using Islam to justify their actions. In Africa there are numerous armies that use Christianity to justify their actions. There are neo-Nazis worldwide that use race to justify their actions. There are Trump supporters that use nationality to justify their actions. Why is it so important to people that EVERYONE KNOWS that ISIS uses Islam as their justification? Is it because so many people deny it and you find it frustrating when people deny facts?

Conversely, I also struggle to understand what about this concept is so upsetting to people. I know that there are idiots (like the one I quote below) who will think all of Islam carries some blame for the actions of ISIS, but that's clearly untrue. Few people blame the entirety of the Catholic Church for the rape scandals, why should it be different for Islamic extremism? Just because idiots (like the one I quote below) might misinterpret ISIS to mean all of Islam is dangerous doesn't mean that we should deny the truth. It means we should educate them on the fact that not all Islam is dangerous, or at the very least that they are acting like idiots (like the guy I quote below).

Yeah, ISIS is influenced by Islam. We all knew that. Even the people who claim it isn't influenced by Islam probably know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yourdamnluck View Post
The problem is, even the most liberal and modern muslim treat their women like shit because its in their religion. They tell them what to wear, what to do and what not. muslim women live like slaves with zero choice because islam says so.

Even the most liberal and western muslims don't believe that there is any true religion but The religion of terror.
Wow, you're a fucking idiot.

The most liberal Muslim people do not treat their women like shit. The most liberal Muslim people behave in a manner indistinguishable from most liberal Americans/British/French/wherever they live.

Don't regurgitate the shit you hear from Rush Limbaugh, you'll wind up looking stupider than he does.

Quote:
And of course you can see how well minorities are protected in muslim majority nations.
The most liberal and peaceful muslim nation, Indonesia shoves fingers up women's vagina(virginity test) before recruiting them.

Rapes and forced marriages of hindu minor girls in pakistan are very common and these always goes unpunished because it's legal in islam to rape the minor girl that you forcefully married.
Any countries with theocratic governments tend to do seriously fucked up shit in the name of religion. In Uganda they murder gay people without consequence. In the Catholic Church they allow(ed) priests to rape children without consequence.

As long as people in charge believe that what they're doing is justified by religion, they'll do whatever they want.

Quote:
They stick ardently to all their ridiculous customs. Who's to say they won't start killing people en masse because koran says 'kill the non believers'.
Muslims are like the daleks they'll exterminate anything that's not them.
And that scares me.
Then you're an idiot, a bigot, and above all else, a massive coward.
__________________
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-11-2016, 05:06 PM
Xemmy's Avatar
Xemmy Xemmy is offline
of the Le'beau family
WWE Women's Champion
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The World That Never Was
Age: 25
Posts: 814
Xemmy scored a win over Santino Marella...Xemmy scored a win over Santino Marella...Xemmy scored a win over Santino Marella...Xemmy scored a win over Santino Marella...Xemmy scored a win over Santino Marella...Xemmy scored a win over Santino Marella...Xemmy scored a win over Santino Marella...Xemmy scored a win over Santino Marella...Xemmy scored a win over Santino Marella...Xemmy scored a win over Santino Marella...Xemmy scored a win over Santino Marella...
Default

It's both. And I don't know why people can't see that. Western Imperialism gives them a reason to be radical. It gives religious extremism a window and a reason for people to turn to them.

This idea that they're not really Muslim is such bullshit. It's no different then Baptists saying Catholics aren't real Christians and vice versa. They read the Holy Book and have their own interpretation of it. It's still the Quran. That doesn't mean all Muslims should be held accountable or anything like that. But ignoring it, pretending it's not what it is, sure as hell doesn't help things. Secularism hasn't always gotten things right. But when it does go wrong, it's due to a state religion that people refuse to acknowledge is really a religion. North Korea is a very good example. There's no religion officially. But they worship their leader like a god. Even coming up with impossible feats that no human could accomplish to bolster his status.

Acknowledge what it is. And then figure out the best way to make it disappear. Education. Military action. Hell if I know. But don't ignore their motivation.

Jesus I hate when people try to paint Islam as a race.

Edit: I do want to clarify, that we are talking about a minority in the religion here. I am not attempting to paint all Muslims in a bad light. Because Islamaphobia is a real thing. (Anyone that says otherwise didn't watch the 2008 election) But pretending the bad apples in your bunch aren't apples just adds the needless confusion of "Why are they fighting us? What are their goals?"
__________________


Last edited by Xemmy : 08-11-2016 at 05:10 PM.
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-11-2016, 07:50 PM
It's Damn Real!'s Avatar
It's Damn Real! It's Damn Real! is offline
The undisputed, undefeated TNA &
WWE Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Age: 33
Posts: 4,897
It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBK-aholic View Post
Surely my response to a point you didn't make is enough for you to infer that I wasn't aiming that specific statement at you? I replied to your post, because you replied to me, but none of my posts are attacking you, they're attacking Islamophobia. I thought we were having a discussion about issues, and were mature enough to not turn it into 'But I didn't say that!' argument. So, disclaimer, this is a discussion, not an attack on you specifically.
If you quote me, and type responses in an accusatory manner, I’m going to assume you are accusing me. It’s only natural. It might seem pedantic, but it’s an important factor in the context of conversation. If you are actually addressing someone directly, it’s natural for them to presume your remarks are directed at them, not beyond them. Why else address them in the first place if the intended target isn’t them?

Additionally, I’m interested in the debate by talking to you, and others. Not in attacking straw men that aren’t actually involved in the debate. It’s silly for you to be attacking “Islamaphobia” that hasn’t been presented, and it’s especially silly for you to attack “Islamaphobia” by quoting me, and then say that you were speaking to some nefarious, nebulous other, even though my post is listed there in direct response to.


Quote:
I also don't want to get into a scripture war, partly because I'll admit to not having read a majority of it, but that same Qu'ran also argues for peace, states that no one should be forced to live by Islamic law, calls to love members of other faiths, and expressly forbids killing another soul. As I said, there are hundreds of ways to criticise the religion, it is full of contradictions, and I have no issues with that being said. My issues begin when people state Islam is the cause of terrorism, or when they assume all Muslims are terrorists who hate the Western world. If you don't believe that, then we agree.
Yet just a post or two ago you were adamant that groups like ISIS have it wrong. How can you know that if you’ve not read a majority of it, or don’t know the scripture? I think you ought to read it if you are honestly interested in knowing about it.

You say, for example, it expressly forbids killing another soul? You are likely referring to the mythical verse “If anyone slays a person, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.” I say mythical because it does not exist. Apologists have distorted the fuck out of the actual verse, which reads:
“On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person - unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity.” [Qur'an 5:32]
Best yet, if you account for the very next verse, you’re presented with:
“Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,” [Qur’an 5:33]
Just another misinterpretation? Certainly not a prescription for violence? You know, except for the whole “they be killed or crucified” bit. Or the whole “their hands and feet be cut off”.

We agree that not all Muslims are terrorists who hate the West. I don’t accept the premise, at least not entirely, that Islam is not the cause of terrorism. So we still have ground to cover there.

Quote:
I specifically asked what your thoughts and solutions were - you quoted it with the phrase "you're erecting to attack instead of actually asking me what my actual positions and opinions are." - When I did just that. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

I however apologise for assuming your thoughts on the media.
And like I said, I can’t really provide them in the hopes of us making any headway because we still disagree on the fundamentals. But in the interest of not appearing as though I don’t actually have ideas for solutions, I’ll present them anyway.

Islam needs reform. It needs to be forced into modernity from within. Not from without. This is where the moderates come in. Those who do not take the religion seriously. Who do not believe in Sharia or the prescribed mandates of the Hadith. Those who embrace liberal values and believe in the empowerment of women within Muslim communities and societies. Those who value science, mathematics and evidence, and who embrace church/state separation. These moderates need to be championed and propped up. People like Maajid Nawaz, the ex-Islamist turned founder of the counter-extremist Quilliam foundation. And though not a Muslim, even people like Faisal Saeed Al Mutar, founder of the Global Secular Humanist Movement, have a valuable voice in the conversation as well.

Secular governments need to be established in Islamic nations to wall off religion from government. Democratic and liberal ideals need to be championed, established, and supported, starting with the empowerment of women in Islamic nations where the rule of the land is dictated by the Mullah's who act on devout belief in Sharia and Hadith prescriptions. And all of this can happen provided the reformists are given a wealth of support from countries like the U.S. and Europe as a whole. Especially those with military presences in any of these Islamic nations today.

Quote:
Not in defence of the religion. In defence of the billions of Muslim's who do not agree with the extremism yet have their lives tarnished with that brush. You keep saying we need to have a frank discussion about this, without fear of offending - in my OP I agreed, but with so many uneducated people, so many people listening to Fox News, and Donald Trump, you also have to be loud about stating that the vast majority of Muslims do not believe this, do not want this, and disagree completely with the terrorism. And I've yet to see a solution which doesn't vilify them. And you apparently have one, but refuse to share it, because someone might disagree.
We disagree again on principle. The majority of Muslims are peaceful. There we agree. The majority of Muslims, however, do hold pernicious beliefs prescribed by the religion. Look at the recent Pew poll data conducted in more than a dozen majority Islamic nations like Egypt, Jordan and Indonesia, Tunisia (who are currently leading the supply of fighting bodies to ISIS), and more. Look at the percentage of Muslims in these countries who favor making Sharia the law of the land. Look at the percentage of Muslims in these countries that support corporal punishment for the crime of theft. Look at the percentage of Muslims in these countries that approve of stoning as punishment for adultery. Look at the percentage of Muslims in these countries who believe death is the appropriate penalty for leaving the religion (apostasy laws). These are not outlier nations, either. They’re major world players in the Islamic world.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...-about-sharia/

Which is all the more reason that religion has to be subject to criticism in this conversation.
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayne
The IWC aren't a real group, just an internal conglomoration of the people who say things you don't like.
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-11-2016, 08:26 PM
HBK-aholic's Avatar
HBK-aholic HBK-aholic is offline
Shawn Michaels ♥
Undisputed WWE Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 6,876
HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...HBK-aholic is a World Heavyweight Champion...and is being held down by Triple H...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by It's Damn Real! View Post
If you quote me, and type responses in an accusatory manner, I’m going to assume you are accusing me. It’s only natural. It might seem pedantic, but it’s an important factor in the context of conversation. If you are actually addressing someone directly, it’s natural for them to presume your remarks are directed at them, not beyond them. Why else address them in the first place if the intended target isn’t them?
My sincerest apologies, in that case. My intention was not to attack.

Quote:
Additionally, I’m interested in the debate by talking to you, and others. Not in attacking straw men that aren’t actually involved in the debate. It’s silly for you to be attacking “Islamaphobia” that hasn’t been presented, and it’s especially silly for you to attack “Islamaphobia” by quoting me, and then say that you were speaking to some nefarious, nebulous other, even though my post is listed there in direct response to.
Again, apologies if it appeared to be directed at you. However, there has already been an Islamophobic post in this thread, because it is seemingly impossible to discuss this without one. My reply may have been too soon, but, as I said, you have to make it ABUNDANTLY clear that the vast majority of Muslim's are not terrorists, because there is way too much propaganda which the uneducated believe and use as fire for discriminatory attacks against Muslims. (Again, not saying you, specifically, have made that remark).

Quote:
Yet just a post or two ago you were adamant that groups like ISIS have it wrong. How can you know that if you’ve not read a majority of it, or don’t know the scripture? I think you ought to read it if you are honestly interested in knowing about it.
Reading it is certainly on my to do list. That said, the very vast majority of people who participate in these discussions also haven't read the entire book, either. My strong belief that Islam isn't specifically to blame is based moreso on the testaments of the vast majority of people who follow Islam, yet somehow do not end up committing terrorist attacks, and who expressly forbid them.

Quote:
You say, for example, it expressly forbids killing another soul? You are likely referring to the mythical verse “If anyone slays a person, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.” I say mythical because it does not exist. Apologists have distorted the fuck out of the actual verse, which reads:
“On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person - unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity.” [Qur'an 5:32]
Best yet, if you account for the very next verse, you’re presented with:
“Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,” [Qur’an 5:33]
Just another misinterpretation? Certainly not a prescription for violence? You know, except for the whole “they be killed or crucified” bit. Or the whole “their hands and feet be cut off”.
I concede this to you. I was likely hasty in my 'Absolutely nothing promotes violence' reply. Maybe someone else on here is more educated in the Qu'ran verse by verse, but I'm not one of those debaters who will google and pass it off as knowledge.

Quote:
Islam needs reform. It needs to be forced into modernity from within. Not from without. This is where the moderates come in. Those who do not take the religion seriously. Who do not believe in Sharia or the prescribed mandates of the Hadith. Those who embrace liberal values and believe in the empowerment of women within Muslim communities and societies. Those who value science, mathematics and evidence, and who embrace church/state separation. These moderates need to be championed and propped up. People like Maajid Nawaz, the ex-Islamist turned founder of the counter-extremist Quilliam foundation. And though not a Muslim, even people like Faisal Saeed Al Mutar, founder of the Global Secular Humanist Movement, have a valuable voice in the conversation as well.
In the Western world, these people are championed; they're major members of their communities, who constantly argue against terrorism and extremism. I think it's difficult when you say 'force them into modernity', because it comes across as telling a couple billion people that their religious beliefs are wrong, and need to change. Which is one of the reasons we have these issues to begin with. I'm not against this, but we have to tread carefully to not make the situation worse.

Quote:
Secular governments need to be established in Islamic nations to wall off religion from government. Democratic and liberal ideals need to be championed, established, and supported, starting with the empowerment of women in Islamic nations where the rule of the land is dictated by the Mullah's who act on devout belief in Sharia and Hadith prescriptions. And all of this can happen provided the reformists are given a wealth of support from countries like the U.S. and Europe as a whole. Especially those with military presences in any of these Islamic nations today.
Again, no issues with this, but we have to tread very carefully. The US has gotten into a lot of trouble, with a terrible amount of deaths, in the name of democracy in foreign nations.

Quote:
Which is all the more reason that religion has to be subject to criticism in this conversation. at them, not beyond them. Why else address them in the first place if the intended target isn’t them?

Donald Trump is a fucking loud mouthed bigot who doesn't even have a surface understanding of half of this, but unfortunately for the U.S., he's the only major politician willing to address this as a problem that is exclusive to Islam. Because it is.
Assuming you are referring only to the terrorism by ISIS that Western media presents as the biggest thread to US citizens ever, because you are intelligent enough to know terrorism is not only exclusive to Islam.
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-11-2016, 08:59 PM
It's Damn Real!'s Avatar
It's Damn Real! It's Damn Real! is offline
The undisputed, undefeated TNA &
WWE Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Age: 33
Posts: 4,897
It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...It's Damn Real! is getting phone calls from TNA...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBK-aholic View Post
Again, apologies if it appeared to be directed at you. However, there has already been an Islamophobic post in this thread, because it is seemingly impossible to discuss this without one. My reply may have been too soon, but, as I said, you have to make it ABUNDANTLY clear that the vast majority of Muslim's are not terrorists, because there is way too much propaganda which the uneducated believe and use as fire for discriminatory attacks against Muslims. (Again, not saying you, specifically, have made that remark).
Sure, I can understand that. And in the interest of clarity, I don’t condone or support or wish for violence or discrimination against Muslims as people, either. I do take umbrage with the term “Islamaphobia”, but not enough to fight you on it. It’s too entrenched in the lexicon of this debate, politically speaking, to move away from anyway.

Quote:
Reading it is certainly on my to do list. That said, the very vast majority of people who participate in these discussions also haven't read the entire book, either. My strong belief that Islam isn't specifically to blame is based moreso on the testaments of the vast majority of people who follow Islam, yet somehow do not end up committing terrorist attacks, and who expressly forbid them.

I concede this to you. I was likely hasty in my 'Absolutely nothing promotes violence' reply. Maybe someone else on here is more educated in the Qu'ran verse by verse, but I'm not one of those debaters who will google and pass it off as knowledge.
Well, that’s the thing. It doesn’t “expressly forbid” it, at all. Because it’s interpretive, and tends to follow beauty with prescriptions of violence like in the 5:32 and 5:33. Just like the Bible. Just like all the Abrahamic religions. The Bible is actually, statistically speaking, more violent than the Qur’an, but Christianity has largely been forced into modernity. Islam hasn’t. It used to be at the epicenter of scientific and mathematical advancement, but lost it’s way in the 11th century and has never recovered. Algebra, for example, is an Arabic term, and much of the early work done in it was done by Muslim mathematicians.

But Islam is still not specifically to blame. It shares some of the blame. Not all of it.

Quote:
In the Western world, these people are championed; they're major members of their communities, who constantly argue against terrorism and extremism. I think it's difficult when you say 'force them into modernity', because it comes across as telling a couple billion people that their religious beliefs are wrong, and need to change. Which is one of the reasons we have these issues to begin with. I'm not against this, but we have to tread carefully to not make the situation worse.
They’re championed by Westerners. Not by Muslims. Not nearly enough, at least, and their work at Islamic reform and criticisms of the religion has earned most of them fatwas. People like Ayaan Hirsi Ali now have to travel the world speaking on the need for Muslim reform with personal security to keep her alive. I believe Nawaz was recently issued a fatwa as well.

As to the rest of your post, if we’re talking about things like apostasy laws, the stoning/killing of homosexuals and adulterers, and Sharia law, I don’t care how many of them there are. Their beliefs are objectively wrong, and absolutely incompatible with Western values and modern, liberal society. There are, no doubt, better means to combat this than telling them they’re wrong, but they are wrong. Just like Christians who oppress women’s reproductive rights, and incite or actually kill abortion doctors (to name a few) are also wrong.

Quote:
Again, no issues with this, but we have to tread very carefully. The US has gotten into a lot of trouble, with a terrible amount of deaths, in the name of democracy in foreign nations.
Because they largely did it alone. They were foolish to try. A much larger global initiative needs to be tried, and needs to be tried in conjunction with the promotion of moderates/reformists within the religion in these nations.

Quote:
Assuming you are referring only to the terrorism by ISIS that Western media presents as the biggest thread to US citizens ever, because you are intelligent enough to know terrorism is not only exclusive to Islam.
When I say it’s exclusive to Islam, I’m probably slightly over-speaking. What I mean to say is that Islam is the only religion on the planet right now where this is happening this often. There are Buddhist terrorists. There are Christian terrorists. But when we’re talking about religious terror, Islam leads the way by miles. That’s what I mean by “exclusive”. Probably too strong a term to use, but that’s what I mean to say.
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayne
The IWC aren't a real group, just an internal conglomoration of the people who say things you don't like.
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-12-2016, 12:31 AM
ShinChan's Avatar
ShinChan ShinChan is offline
Yemrez Reqonıc
Mr. Money in the Bank
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: India
Posts: 2,119
ShinChan scored a win over Santino Marella...ShinChan scored a win over Santino Marella...ShinChan scored a win over Santino Marella...ShinChan scored a win over Santino Marella...ShinChan scored a win over Santino Marella...ShinChan scored a win over Santino Marella...ShinChan scored a win over Santino Marella...ShinChan scored a win over Santino Marella...ShinChan scored a win over Santino Marella...ShinChan scored a win over Santino Marella...ShinChan scored a win over Santino Marella...
Default

Interestingly, a couple of days ago, I thought about this and had decided to make a thread about in here.

I think that religion isn't directly connected to terrorism but it is indirectly. Now I don't mean that All terrorists follow Islam or vice-versa. That would be dumb to think. One bad apple doesn't convey that the whole set of apples would come out as being bad.

What I believe is that these terrorists have NO religion whatsoever. No religion gives consent to such violence and exploitation of fundamental human rights.

These guys are brainwashed in the way that if you kill these people, you would be loved by God and made to enter heaven. They are assured that their family would be taken care of even after they die doing some terror activity.

Another thing I want to add is that there's a small cause of it too. At many places, Muslims are discriminated based on religion which is wrong enough. This in turn helps the cause of terror heads as they can easily provoke these guys who faced discrimination. I amn't endorsing that terrorism is right, I am just saying that there's a cause which needs to be stopped as soon as possible.
sendpm.gif Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:54 AM.

monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"
Contact Us - Clear Cookies - Lost Password - WrestleZone Forums - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Top - AdChoices