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  #1  
Old 01-23-2013, 08:14 AM
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Default Hall of Fame - Winter 2013

EDIT: Voting is now open!

Poll 1: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=248351

Poll 2: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=248353




It's time again for the WrestleZone Forums to select the next two Hall of Famers. There are six names to consider, from which you'll select two. Here are the candidates:

First Group of Candidates:
(Full writing credit to HGR)

Bobby Heenan: Perhaps the very first Second City Saint of professional wrestling, Bobby "the Brain" Heenan may just be the greatest enhancement talent the world has ever seen. There are no championship belts or tournament trophies displayed in Heenan's front room. No, the Brain's legacy can be seen plain as day in the wrestling history books, having been the mouthpiece for some of the industry's all-time greats. Members of the Heenan Family include: Big John Studd, Paul Orndorff, Andre the Giant, Rick Rude, Mr. Perfect; the list goes on, and on. The managerial role isn't the only place "Brain" found success, however, as he would go on to become the voice of the WWF alongside Gorilla Monsoon, before eventually moving on to WCW, where he would retire.

Jim Ross: Good ole' J.R. has worked on commentary in pro wrestling since his time in Bill Watts NWA Mid-South, in 1982. That company would, of course, be merged into what would be WCW, where Ross spent several years, eventually moving up to head of broadcasting. But it was his time in WWF, as the often proclaimed "voice of Raw" that Jim Ross would come into his own. Whilst working with the WWE, Ross became Vice President of Talent Relations, and actually played a key role in hiring some of the biggest names of the 90s and early 2000s. You can feel it in the way that wrestling fans today chant "we want JR", that there has never been, nor likely ever will be again, a voice like Ross' echoing over our TV sets every Monday night.

The Fabulous Moolah: The "First Goddess of the Squared Circle" was a pioneer for women's wrestling, not only helping to lift a ban for female wrestlers in the state of New York, but becoming the first woman to ever compete in the iconic Madison Square Garden. Her very first title reign with the NWA World Women's Championship last almost 11 years, and was the dominating champion throughout the 1950s, 60s and 70s with separate reigns of 8 years, and 6 years. In fact, for quite awhile Moolah actually owned the rights to the title itself! She would sell it to Vince McMahon, and the belt become what many of us today know as the retired WWE Women's Championship.


Second Group of Candidates
(Full writing credit to HGR)

Dusty Rhodes: The "American Dream" Dusty Rhodes personified the average working man. Rhodes wasn't overly attractive, well-built or athletic. Billed as the son of a plumber, his look and size made him the perfect representation of an American, blue-collar man's man, and the fan's ate it up! The former World Champion has wrestled around the country for every major promotion and territory of his day, becoming a Hall of Fame member of every class available. Does Dusty Rhodes have what it takes to add one more legendary accomplishment to his list of accolades?

Roddy Piper: The "Rowdy One" has been listed as the primary influence of so many of today's heels, you begin to wonder if he wasn't the greatest villain in all of pro wrestling. Although Piper never actually won a World title during his long tenure with the WWF, he's still considered one of the all-time greats for his legendary mic skills, promo segments and marquee matches; chief among them fighting Hulk Hogan and Mr. T in the main event of the very first WrestleMania.

Eddie Guerrero: In 2005, Eddie Guerrero suddenly, and unexpectedly passed away in what has to be considered among the worst tragedies in pro wrestling history. Eddie won't be remembered for decade long title runs, or carrying the WWE on his back; in truth, his young death meant that Guerrero spent the majority of his career working the mid-card, first in WCW and later in WWE. What Eddie did bring to wrestling was what we affectionately refer to as "Latino Heat" - a passion, or fire that he carried with him through each match, in-ring segment or backstage promo. Perhaps his greatest gift was simply an unparalleled level of charisma. Whether co-main eventing WrestleMania, or working the dark matches in WCW's tag division, Eddie Guerrero had each crowd in the palm of his hand, whether you were meant to love, or hate him. Viva la raza!


Use this thread to discuss your choices. Voting will begin a couple of days after the posting of this thread.
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  #2  
Old 01-23-2013, 10:56 PM
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Dusty is the clear choice in Group 2. As a draw, everything that Dusty does obliterates Piper and Eddie; statistically, Dusty had more years as a top 10 draw in professional wrestling than Eddie and Roddy, combined.

Let's call Dusty's heyday from 1977, his first year as a top ten draw in wrestling (meaning as the main event, which granted probably includes some battle royales). From 1977 to 1988, Dusty's last year as a top 10 draw, Dusty had seven years on The Wrestling Observer's list of top ten draws. In the modern era (for all sense and purposes, let's just say 1975 is the start of the modern era. It isn't, but just work with me, here. It gives me more contemporaries to compare), only six wrestlers had a greater amount of longevity as a draw than Dusty Rhodes;

Flair
Hogan
Andre
HHH
Harley Race
Inoki

That's it, that's the list. Piper and Guerrero, meanwhile, have four years between them, with Piper owning three, and Eddie owning one. Piper, in all fairness, had the best overall year out of all of the candidates. In 1985, he and Hulk Hogan actually set a record for the most big gates (10,000+) in one year, which is really impressive.

It becomes less impressive when you learn that Hogan shattered that record the following year, with Paul Orndorff. It wasn't just Orndorff, as Savage and King Kong Bundy were there to carry the load, as well. But what I'm getting at more than anything is that Piper was a spoke on the wheel, a guy who, while drawing quite a bit, was helped by gigantic drawing power of Hulk Hogan. It probably doesn't help his case that, in 1986, Piper would stumble from third to seventh, eventually getting passed by, you guessed it, Dusty

For the record, here's the raw data, should you want it;

Click for Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wrestling Observer
1977 - 1. Superstar Billy Graham; 2. Bruno Sammartino; 3. Harley Race and Jerry Lawler; 5. Ken Patera; 6. Dusty Rhodes; 7. The Sheik and Mil Mascaras; 9. Gene & Ole Anderson and Bill Dundee

1978 - 1. Superstar Billy Graham ; 2. Bob Backlund; 3. Dusty Rhodes; 4. Harley Race; 5. Bruno Sammartino; 6. Ric Flair and Andre the Giant; 8. Canek, Ernie Ladd and Ivan Koloff

1979 - 1. Bob Backlund; 2. Harley Race; 3. Ric Flair; 4. Andre the Giant; 5. Bruno Sammartino, Ricky Steamboat and Pat Patterson; 8. Peter Maivia, Ivan Koloff, Nick Bockwinkel and Dusty Rhodes

1980 - 1. Bob Backlund; 2. Bruno Sammartino; 3. Larry Zbyszko; 4. Harley Race and Ken Patera; 6. Andre the Giant; 7. Hulk Hogan; 8. Antonio Inoki; 9. Ric Flair and Stan Hansen

1981 - 1. Bob Backlund (dominant year); 2. Andre the Giant; 3. Ric Flair and Stan Hansen; 5. Hulk Hogan; 6. Sgt. Slaughter; 7. Killer Khan and Nick Bockwinkel; 9. Jerry Blackwell, Harley Race and Dusty Rhodes

1982 - 1. Bob Backlund (breaks Rogers record for most big gates in one year); 2. Ric Flair; 3. Hulk Hogan; 4. Nick Bockwinkel; 5. Jimmy Snuka; 6. Perro Aguayo, Sgt. Slaughter, Piperand Superstar Billy Graham; 10. Andre the Giant, Junkyard Dog and Ken Patera

1983 - 1. Ric Flair; 2. Bob Backlund; 3. Harley Race; 4. Don Muraco; 5. Sgt. Slaughter; 6. Hulk Hogan; 7. Andre the Giant; 8. Jimmy Snuka; 9. Ricky Steamboat and John Studd

1984 - 1. Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Ric Flair; 3. Antonio Inoki; 4. Iron Sheik; 5. Kerry Von Erich; 6. Andre the Giant; 7. Paul Orndorff and Road Warriors; 9. Junkyard Dog; 10. Nick Bockwinkel and Canek

1985 - 1 Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Ric Flair; 3. Roddy Piper; 4. Paul Orndorff and Road Warriors; 5. Andre the Giant; 6. John Studd; 7. Bob Orton Jr.; 8. Randy Savage and Antonio Inoki; 10. Kevin & Kerry Von Erich

1986 - 1. Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Ric Flair and Paul Orndorff; 4. Road Warriors; 5. Randy Savage; 6. Dusty Rhodes and Nikita Koloff; 7. Roddy Piper and King Kong Bundy; 9. Midnight Express and Tito Santana

1987 - 1. Hulk Hogan (dominant year); 2. Ric Flair; 3. Randy Savage; 4. Kamala; 5. Road Warriors; 6. Dusty Rhodes and One Man Gang; 8. Andre the Giant and Antonio Inoki; 10. Harley Race and Carlos Colon

1988 - 1. Hulk Hogan; 2. Randy Savage; 3. Ric Flair and Andre the Giant; 5. Ted DiBiase; 6. Lex Luger; 7. Big Bossman; 8. Tully Blanchard; 9. Road Warriors, Dusty Rhodes and Carlos Colon


It's also worth noting that during the mid 80s, Dusty took a booking role in Jim Crockett promotions, which could very well explain the gap from 1983 to 1986. Piper, coincidentally enough, would leave the WWE to pursue movies in 1986, but he would also come back, and never touch the top ten again. So make of that what you will

Arguing either Eddie or Roddy is a Catch 22. You can argue that Eddie is a far better worker than Dusty, which he is, but his inability as a draw hinders his argument. You can argue Piper was enough of a draw to overcome Rhodes, but his lackings as a worker hinders his argument. I don't think Eddie even belongs in the discussion until much bigger and better names get in, so let's just focus on Piper and Dusty.

With these two, you have marginal (at best) workers, who carried their careers through great promo work. In which case, you can base your argument on the following things;

1. Personal preference (Fine, but a Hall of Fame isn't built on personal preference)
2. An ability to draw (which favors Dusty)

Group 1 is tougher
I'll need to think about that
But for now, Dusty
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  #3  
Old 01-23-2013, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Haiku Hogan View Post
Dusty is the clear choice in Group 2. As a draw, everything that Dusty does obliterates Piper and Eddie; statistically, Dusty had more years as a top 10 draw in professional wrestling than Eddie and Roddy, combined.

Let's call Dusty's heyday from 1977, his first year as a top ten draw in wrestling (meaning as the main event, which granted probably includes some battle royales). From 1977 to 1988, Dusty's last year as a top 10 draw, Dusty had seven years on The Wrestling Observer's list of top ten draws. In the modern era (for all sense and purposes, let's just say 1975 is the start of the modern era. It isn't, but just work with me, here. It gives me more contemporaries to compare), only six wrestlers had a greater amount of longevity as a draw than Dusty Rhodes;

Flair
Hogan
Andre
HHH
Harley Race
Inoki

That's it, that's the list. Piper and Guerrero, meanwhile, have four years between them, with Piper owning three, and Eddie owning one. Piper, in all fairness, had the best overall year out of all of the candidates. In 1985, he and Hulk Hogan actually set a record for the most big gates (10,000+) in one year, which is really impressive.

It becomes less impressive when you learn that Hogan shattered that record the following year, with Paul Orndorff. It wasn't just Orndorff, as Savage and King Kong Bundy were there to carry the load, as well. But what I'm getting at more than anything is that Piper was a spoke on the wheel, a guy who, while drawing quite a bit, was helped by gigantic drawing power of Hulk Hogan. It probably doesn't help his case that, in 1986, Piper would stumble from third to seventh, eventually getting passed by, you guessed it, Dusty

For the record, here's the raw data, should you want it;



It's also worth noting that during the mid 80s, Dusty took a booking role in Jim Crockett promotions, which could very well explain the gap from 1983 to 1986. Piper, coincidentally enough, would leave the WWE to pursue movies in 1986, but he would also come back, and never touch the top ten again. So make of that what you will

Arguing either Eddie or Roddy is a Catch 22. You can argue that Eddie is a far better worker than Dusty, which he is, but his inability as a draw hinders his argument. You can argue Piper was enough of a draw to overcome Rhodes, but his lackings as a worker hinders his argument. I don't think Eddie even belongs in the discussion until much bigger and better names get in, so let's just focus on Piper and Dusty.

With these two, you have marginal (at best) workers, who carried their careers through great promo work. In which case, you can base your argument on the following things;

1. Personal preference (Fine, but a Hall of Fame isn't built on personal preference)
2. An ability to draw (which favors Dusty)

Group 1 is tougher
I'll need to think about that
But for now, Dusty
Now hang on just a minute there. You've been making these long posts for a few days now and I think you may have gone a bit too far here.

To say that Dusty is bigger than Eddie and Piper is true....if we're talking about after the buffet is done for the night. As far as value to the sport and drawing ability and impact, Dusty does indeed destroy Eddie but I'm not so sure about Piper.

First of all, the modern era started 29 years ago yesterday when Hulk Hogan won the WWF Title from the Iron Sheik. Before then is the difference between daylight and dark, or in this case dull and bright yellow and red. 1977 (and I've seen some of the stuff from that era) is a VERY different style than what you would get in the modern era. It's much more slow paced and laid back than what you get today which is perfect for a fat tub of goo like Dusty.

As for the drawing list from Meltzer, if I remember right (and I could be wrong), that list is based entirely around large arenas and completely factors out smaller ones, with a cutoff point of I believe 10,000 people. Also, starting in 1985 and running until 1988, Dusty just happened to be booking what would become WCW. I'm sure that had nothing to do with him being on top of the card though, right?

This however, is flat out wrong.

Quote:
It becomes less impressive when you learn that Hogan shattered that record the following year, with Paul Orndorff. It wasn't just Orndorff, as Savage and King Kong Bundy were there to carry the load, as well. But what I'm getting at more than anything is that Piper was a spoke on the wheel, a guy who, while drawing quite a bit, was helped by gigantic drawing power of Hulk Hogan. It probably doesn't help his case that, in 1986, Piper would stumble from third to seventh, eventually getting passed by, you guessed it, Dusty
To suggest that Piper was just a guy is incorrect. Piper is the reason the Rock N Wrestling Connection, which gave birth to Wrestlemania which gave birth to the Golden Era of the WWF, got started. I've heard Piper say that without him there would be no Wrestlemania and odds are he's right. Hulk Hogan was amazingly popular, but without someone to fight, there was no conflict. You couldn't just throw a monster of the week in there. You needed someone people could HATE. You needed someone that would kick Cyndi Lauper in the head. You needed the Hot Scot. You needed Roddy Piper.

Piper was absolutely loathed in 1985 and was in one of the featured matches of Wrestlemania 2 as well as Wrestlemania 3. He was turned face by the crowd alone, as well as through one of the worst beatings you will ever see:



Also, part of the reason Piper didn't have a big year in 1986 was that he took the summer off. He had one match between Wrestlemania in April and August and retired for the first time nine months later.

That gap you're talking about for Dusty has almost nothing to do with him being a booker. He got that job in 1985.

Finally though, I have this:

Quote:
You can argue Piper was enough of a draw to overcome Rhodes, but his lackings as a worker hinders his argument.
If I'm reading this right, you're saying that Piper's ability to work in the ring are less than Dusty Rhodes. If this is true, stick to writing poetry bub because you have no idea what you're talking about around here. Dusty is perhaps....no there's no perhaps to it. Dusty is the laziest wrestler you will ever see. He somehow managed to make RIC FLAIR have a bad match in the 80s. Go find another bad Flair match from 1983 to 1988 that doesn't have Dusty in it. I'll be waiting, so bring me a case of poptarts because I'll be here awhile.

Piper had a string of great matches throughout the 80s including ones with Greg Valentine, Jack Brisco, Ric Flair, Hogan and many others. To even suggest that Piper can't work/can't work as well as Dusty is laughable. This is also ignoring Piper's great run in the early 90s against Flair and Hart.

At the end of the day, Piper more than matches up against Dusty. Piper actually has been active longer (both debuted in 1968 and Rhodes retired from active competition in the early 90s. Piper was active at least on a semi-regular basis until the late 90s), is FAR better in the ring and has a lot more historical significance from one year alone.

It's Piper, by an almost good margin.
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  #4  
Old 01-24-2013, 12:43 AM
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To say that Dusty is bigger than Eddie and Piper is true....if we're talking about after the buffet is done for the night.
Lulz, fat jokes

Quote:
As far as value to the sport and drawing ability and impact, Dusty does indeed destroy Eddie but I'm not so sure about Piper.
I'm glad we can throw Eddie out of the equation. I'm not privy to this information, but how was it decided that Eddie was a candidate, again? There are plenty, plenty of wrestlers I'll take over Eddie... I will legitimately take Konnan before I take Eddie. Hey, at least he was a draw in Mexico.

.... What's that, this isn't about Eddie?

Quote:
First of all, the modern era started 29 years ago yesterday when Hulk Hogan won the WWF Title from the Iron Sheik. Before then is the difference between daylight and dark, or in this case dull and bright yellow and red. 1977 (and I've seen some of the stuff from that era) is a VERY different style than what you would get in the modern era. It's much more slow paced and laid back than what you get today which is perfect for a fat tub of goo like Dusty.
I agree... Modern era and 1977 are like comparing red and yellow to another, darker shade of red and yellow.

Vince McMahon created Hulk Hogan out of his love and obsession for Superstar Billy Graham. Now, granted, change wasn't immediate, and the WWWF surely wasn't exactly the kind of promotion the WWF was, but the elements were there. Graham was there, so was Jesse Ventura (another guy Vince had in mind when he created Hulk Hogan), Andre was still around. Yes, you still had your Backlund's and your Sammartino's, but the elements were coming together for what would eventually become Hogan's run

Quote:
As for the drawing list from Meltzer, if I remember right (and I could be wrong), that list is based entirely around large arenas and completely factors out smaller ones, with a cutoff point of I believe 10,000 people.
True; however, you should probably consider this when you say that;

Quote:
I should also point out that 10,000 as the arbitrary cutoff point for much of history greatly favors wrestlers who worked on top in a few selected markets, most notably the Northeast.
So shouldn't that make my list more favorable to Piper, who's greatest years as a draw are in the Northeast?

Also of relevance;

Quote:
For a territory like Florida where the major shows were in Miami Beach and Tampa, with 5,000 seat arenas they sold out regularly, they had some of the best and most successful wrestling but nobody from that territory could make the list.
And;

Quote:
The NWA champions were generally big draws, but they mostly worked smaller arenas because the California promoters didnít use them much and they were big in places like Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas and Texas where business was often good, but wouldnít hit the 10,000 threshold a lot, because of lack of arenas outside of St. Louis.
Quote:
Also, starting in 1985 and running until 1988, Dusty just happened to be booking what would become WCW. I'm sure that had nothing to do with him being on top of the card though, right?
Again, granted, but that also doesn't answer to the late 70s-early 80s, arguably Dusty's best years


Quote:
To suggest that Piper was just a guy is incorrect. Piper is the reason the Rock N Wrestling Connection, which gave birth to Wrestlemania which gave birth to the Golden Era of the WWF, got started.
I think reason is a little strong. Piper carried his own, but I think more of it had to do with;

1. Hogan (of course)
2. The market
3. Mr. T, who granted, was Piper's real foe of the time. I don't know if T is in the WWE hall of fame, but he legitimately should be. Piper was his main antagonist, so I get what you're saying, but I think part of it was attracting Mr. T, much in the same way Tyson is credited with the Attitude Era


Quote:
I've heard Piper say that without him there would be no Wrestlemania and odds are he's right. Hulk Hogan was amazingly popular, but without someone to fight, there was no conflict.
True, but he also had three men to fight, again with Mr. T with him. One of those men, Orndorff, was was also the lead draw of 1986, as well, so there had to be something besides Piper that made the audience want to see Hogan get his hands on these guys.

Side note; Orndorff, for all he's not talked about, gets criminally underrated. Sure hope we can find him a nice spot in the WZ tourney.

Quote:
You couldn't just throw a monster of the week in there. You needed someone people could HATE.
Bundy. Kamala. Hell, to some extent, Orndorff and Orton. All guys who had stints with Hogan, and aside from Orndorff, dropped off the list. Now granted, there was something special in Piper that gave him longevity. But Dusty had longevity, too, even before he became booker. Even as booker, it wasn't as though Dusty had any superfluous runs with the belt.


Quote:
Piper was absolutely loathed in 1985 and was in one of the featured matches of Wrestlemania 2 as well as Wrestlemania 3. He was turned face by the crowd alone, as well as through one of the worst beatings you will ever see:
I never took anything away from his '85; again, it was record breaking.

Until, of course, Hogan broke his own record with Orndorff. But again, taking nothing away from his '85.

Quote:
Also, part of the reason Piper didn't have a big year in 1986 was that he took the summer off. He had one match between Wrestlemania in April and August and retired for the first time nine months later.
Fair, but again, he'd never again come close to reaching that top ten when he'd return

Quote:
That gap you're talking about for Dusty has al1985.most nothing to do with him being a booker. He got that job in
Ah. Duly noted.

Quote:
If I'm reading this right, you're saying that Piper's ability to work in the ring are less than Dusty Rhodes. If this is true, stick to writing poetry bub because you have no idea what you're talking about around here.
Not less than; somewhere around each other.

Quote:
Dusty is perhaps....no there's no perhaps to it. Dusty is the laziest wrestler you will ever see. He somehow managed to make RIC FLAIR have a bad match in the 80s. Go find another bad Flair match from 1983 to 1988 that doesn't have Dusty in it. I'll be waiting, so bring me a case of poptarts because I'll be here awhile.
It's Occam's Razor; why would people go to watch shitty matches? I've heard this rant before, the snap mare botch, yes yes. Dusty was never exceptional, but he got paid people to pay money to watch him fight, over and over again.

Again, it's Occam's Razor, the simplest reason to explain something; they liked something, and wanted to see him get his comeuppance.

Also, again, that is excluding his 70's.

Quote:
Piper had a string of great matches throughout the 80s including ones with Greg Valentine, Jack Brisco, Ric Flair, Hogan and many others. To even suggest that Piper can't work/can't work as well as Dusty is laughable.
Dusty had some pretty good matches; granted, it was with the likes of Nikita Koloff and Harley Race. Also, Dusty was pivotal in getting War Games over; to steal something from you, every heel needs a good face to play off, and in War Games, that was Dusty and the Road Warriors to the Horsemen

Quote:
This is also ignoring Piper's great run in the early 90s against Flair and Hart.
Doesn't essentially amount to a house show run and one match at Mania?

Quote:
At the end of the day, Piper more than matches up against Dusty. Piper actually has been active longer (both debuted in 1968 and Rhodes retired from active competition in the early 90s. Piper was active at least on a semi-regular basis until the late 90s), is FAR better in the ring and has a lot more historical significance from one year alone.
Piper probably had four or five matches from 92 on out, at the most. And let's call a spade a spade, they were usually pretty awful

one year is great, jack
But it's a year with Hulky
Of course it was great
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  #5  
Old 01-24-2013, 01:46 AM
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This is completely incorrect.

Quote:
Vince McMahon created Hulk Hogan out of his love and obsession for Superstar Billy Graham. Now, granted, change wasn't immediate, and the WWWF surely wasn't exactly the kind of promotion the WWF was, but the elements were there. Graham was there, so was Jesse Ventura (another guy Vince had in mind when he created Hulk Hogan), Andre was still around. Yes, you still had your Backlund's and your Sammartino's, but the elements were coming together for what would eventually become Hogan's run
Vince McMahon did not create Hulk Hogan and/or Hulkamania. The following takes place in April of 1983, nearly three years after Hogan left the WWF and roughly a year after Vince Jr. took over from Vince Sr. Start at 1:28:00. The music was originally Eye of the Tiger but it's been edited out.



You might notice the fans going crazy for Hogan far before Vince Jr. got a hold of him. Vince McMahon did not create Hulk Hogan.

Quote:
So shouldn't that make my list more favorable to Piper, who's greatest years as a draw are in the Northeast?
This is true and also brings up something I forgot to mention earlier. You mention Dusty being a top draw starting in 1977. Until 1982, Piper never was a featured attraction in a major area. He mainly was in LA, San Francisco and Portland before finally getting to JCP in 1982. Piper was mainly a midcarder in 83 and primarily a manager/tag wrestler in 84. Once he got a shot on top against a top crowd, history was made.

Quote:
True, but he also had three men to fight, again with Mr. T with him. One of those men, Orndorff, was was also the lead draw of 1986, as well, so there had to be something besides Piper that made the audience want to see Hogan get his hands on these guys.
There was: a turn at the end of Wrestlemania when Roddy Piper left him in the ring after the main event followed by a huge feud with Roddy Piper. He turned heel again in late 86 after a huge run with Roddy Piper.

Quote:
Side note; Orndorff, for all he's not talked about, gets criminally underrated. Sure hope we can find him a nice spot in the WZ tourney.
Gee if only one of us was in charge of running that thing.

Quote:
Bundy. Kamala. Hell, to some extent, Orndorff and Orton. All guys who had stints with Hogan, and aside from Orndorff, dropped off the list. Now granted, there was something special in Piper that gave him longevity. But Dusty had longevity, too, even before he became booker.
As in Piper's cronies and partner/second in the main event against Hogan?

Quote:
Even as booker, it wasn't as though Dusty had any superfluous runs with the belt.
Assuming this isn't sarcasm, Dusty would be the one that booked himself to win the world title in the main event of Starrcade 85 and then booked a Dusty Finish in said match to take it off of himself two weeks later.

Other titles Dusty won during his time as booker:

NWA National Title
TV Title (2 times)
US Title
Six Man Titles (2 times)
Bunkhouse Stampede (Annual competition, Dusty won EVERY ONE EVER)
Jim Crockett Senior Memorial Tag Team Tournament

But he never abused his power at all.

Quote:
Until, of course, Hogan broke his own record with Orndorff. But again, taking nothing away from his '85.
In a feud that wouldn't have happened without Piper.

Quote:
Dusty had some pretty good matches; granted, it was with the likes of Nikita Koloff and Harley Race. Also, Dusty was pivotal in getting War Games over; to steal something from you, every heel needs a good face to play off, and in War Games, that was Dusty and the Road Warriors to the Horsemen
I'm sure this top spot had nothing to do with him being booker right?

Quote:
Doesn't essentially amount to a house show run and one match at Mania?
And his first singles title in the WWF, a string of incredibly well received matches with Flair, a good managing stint with Virgil, and a great performance in the Rumble. Not bad for a return from a guy known only for his talking.

Quote:
Piper probably had four or five matches from 92 on out, at the most. And let's call a spade a spade, they were usually pretty awful
Actually it was closer to thirty or forty, but I'll only list the important ones here.

1994 - 1, a PPV main event
1996 - 2, one being a PPV main event at the biggest WCW show of the year
1997 - 7, four being PPV main events
1998 - 7, one being a PPV main event
1999 - 11, one being a title match on PPV

In other words, not only was Piper around, but in 1997, he was on top when WCW was completely dominating the WWF. So in other words:

Quote:
he got paid people to pay money to watch him fight, over and over again.
Many years after Dusty did. That sounds like longevity to me.


In other words, Piper had a bigger period than Dusty in a year's time, influenced the next big feud that broke his record, had another big run on top twelve years after his first one (in front of a FAR bigger audience no less), and had better in ring performances on top of it (as someone who has seen all of these two's big matches on top, trust me on this).

Go ahead.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:25 PM
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I'm picking Dusty too (sorry KB). He's just done more work. Top draw, whether it was his own booking or not. A commentator, wrestler, booker, agent, he's still at it in NXT, right? Piper has obviously had his own major success, but Dusty's has lasted longer. Not to mention that from a modern perspective it's a bigger impact.

Heenan is my other pick. Moolah made way for women's wrestling and is a major name in the record books, but Bobby Heenan was one of Hulk Hogan's most recurrent antagonists in the 80's. It's because of him we got Hogan/Andre and because of him many major heels of the time came to be established. Moolah did have major influence, but Heenan's influence helped with some of wrestling's biggest strides in the 80's. After Moolah's time though, women's wrestling in the US went nowhere until Trish and Lita and after it died off again. JR is an awesome voice, but in my eyes, he was just a voice in comparison to Moolah and Heenan.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:58 PM
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In group one, I have to pick Bobby Heenan over JR.

While Jim Ross has done a lot in his storied career, and called so many moments he has in essence been the man who calls the action, rather than been a successful part of it. The few times he has ventured out into matches or angles he has always looked uncomfortable, although he has always been "game" you can tell he'd just rather be at the announce table. Where his claim gathers steam is when you consider his role recruiting. He was responsible for bringing in a lot of talent to WWE that are now Hall Of Fame worthy or already in there. Ross's watch saw Steve Austin, Mick Foley, Edge, Eddie, Benoit, Brock Lesnar, The Rock, Kurt Angle, JBL, Jeff Hardy and Christian all come into WWE.

How much of those guys signing was actually down to JR's scouting is another matter however. Dwayne Johnson had been around the WWF since birth, if he was going to wrestle it was a no-brainer it would be there. Kurt Angle was already a name and WCW was clearly not an option. Eddie and Benoit were good steals but came with 2 not so hot properties in Malenko and Saturn.

Where JR get's credit is those guys he clearly went to bat for to change Vince's mind on them, guys like Foley, Austin and Jericho all of whom were not favored or considered "not WWF" material by Vince initially.

That JR isn't going in from me this time is not a knock, but...well you'll see why.

Bobby Heenan is without doubt the most charismatic "non-wrestling character" of his era. Sure he started as a wrestler and a pretty average one and in his later years his "5 minutes with" matches were always more comedy than serious but it was when he focused on managing others that he found his niche. When a heel wrestler, however new or however green was put with Heenan, they were guaranteed not only instant heat but instant credibility. Heenan didn't "pick" losers and young wrestlers who worked with him were inherently working with other guys who would help them learn. Look at the classic Heenan Family, younger talents like Rick Rude and Curt Hennig were immediately with a veteran mouthpiece and in the same stable as main event talents like Andre, Bundy, Studd or Harley Race. Any young star couldn't fail to learn from how Bobby conducted himself on the apron, how he ran his stable and how others were forced to respect him for his work, even if they hated how he did things.

The classic Heenan period was 87-89, when Andre was going to do the unthinkable, they needed a catalyst to make the turn stick, a man who could talk a friendly giant into becoming a monster threatening to destroy all that was "good" in wrestling. Heenan was that guy, the moment he came out with Andre, you just knew not only was Andre going bad, but he was going as bad as it could get... "Anyone but the weasel!!!" was the collective cry of the fans... they could have stomached Jimmy Hart or Mr. Fuji but Heenan made people hate Bobby for poisoning their beloved giant...and once Andre ripped the cross off they hated Andre as if he had never been good at all.

Heenan's other success in that period was with Rick Rude. Here was an unproved talent who needed that added zing and Heenan provided it. Rude didn't need Bobby on the mic so much but gave Heenan the chance to show his other side, the one that won his men matches. When Rude beat Warrior thanks to Heenan's interference, no-one saw a weak heel cheating to win, they saw "that weasel" making Rude famous at their hero's expense. He was later able to do the same for Mr. Perfect and although he stopped managing full time, he never lost the knack - he was a major part in getting Ric Flair and Lex Luger over in their early days in the WWF.

But the thing that really puts Heenan over JR this time is that Heenan was as good an announcer as JR. On balance, JR has been a PBP man, but in more recent years he has almost become another colour commentator when working with someone like Cole. JR has at times almost copied Vince's voice from his commentary days, it's sometimes hard to tell the difference. While JR and Jerry have chemistry, Bobby and Gorilla WERE living chemistry.

I am willing to state there has never been a better combination of announcers than Bobby Heenan and Gorilla Monsoon, their banter, comedic timing and ability to sound as if they despised each other was key to that Hulkamania period. Jesse was good but once The Brain got on the mic the whole production went up a notch. So being honest, we have the greatest PBP man of all time vs the greatest manager AND colour man of all time... Yep Heenan wins...


As for part 2 -

Piper gets this for me, as important as Dusty was, much of his success was self made in that he put belts on himself as KB mentioned. Dusty has a massively important part to play and that 2 of his sons are so prominent is also a massive plus for him. But Piper is a massively important man in the history of wrestling, while not being the most decorated.

If Heenan was the most charismatic non-wrestler, there's a big argument that says Piper is the most naturally charismatic wrestler ever. This is a guy who didn't have the physique of Hogan or the pretty boy/technical skill combo that Flair had but he had street toughness and attitude in abundance. Piper had skills and an aura that could almost goad Gandhi into starting a fight with him. You wanted to see him get his ass kicked more than any other heel and then when he went face, he became the original anti-hero of the WWF.

Piper did some stupid things but he also had genius level moments, mostly improvised. Piper's Pit is indellibly linked to some of the most controversial but memorable moments in wrestling. People remember Frankie Williams cos of Piper, they remember Morton Downey Jr cos of Piper. Even some wrestlers, like Bad News Brown are remembered cos of Piper's part in their feuds rather than their own careers (the half black body paint is still a WTF? moment) At times you wondered if Piper really was crazy, or a damn good actor and it was fitting he was the first guy to make a big movie as the star... They Live is actually a damn good one too. Piper starred in that before Hogan had his first starring role and set the template for guys like The Rock and Steve Austin.

As for Dusty - His time will come but on balance, Piper did more with less power and had a bigger impact on the biz in general, Piper got onto MTV, Dusty got to Wrestlemania 6 years late for the party, had he not gotten so comfy booking in JCP and jumped after WM1, he could have been as big as Hogan...
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by klunderbunker View Post
This is completely incorrect.



Vince McMahon did not create Hulk Hogan and/or Hulkamania. The following takes place in April of 1983, nearly three years after Hogan left the WWF and roughly a year after Vince Jr. took over from Vince Sr. Start at 1:28:00. The music was originally Eye of the Tiger but it's been edited out.



You might notice the fans going crazy for Hogan far before Vince Jr. got a hold of him. Vince McMahon did not create Hulk Hogan.
The AWA run. Hulk was popular before he got to Vince, sure, but when Vince saw Hulk, (and let's not get it twisted, Hogan in the AWA is different from Hogan in the WWF) he made certain tweaks to the character. And you really mean to tell me that the Hulk Hogan character wasn't shaped at all by This?

You mean to tell me you don't see the origins of the Hulk Hogan character in this promo?



And if I really want to get picky, and I think I will, you know who that actually sounds a little like, to me?



Let's call a spade a spade, Hogan grew up in Tampa.In fact, as Hogan admits in his book, My Life Outside the Ring, Hogan idolized both Dusty and Billy Graham growing up

I'm not going to tell you that without Dusty and Billy, there is no Hulk Hogan, but I will tell you that character would be very, very different without them. Dusty was Hogan's muse, in a lot of ways, just like Billy Graham and Jesse Ventura

Quote:
This is true and also brings up something I forgot to mention earlier. You mention Dusty being a top draw starting in 1977. Until 1982, Piper never was a featured attraction in a major area. He mainly was in LA, San Francisco and Portland before finally getting to JCP in 1982. Piper was mainly a midcarder in 83 and primarily a manager/tag wrestler in 84. Once he got a shot on top against a top crowd, history was made.
Yes, yes, Don Owen and the gang back in Portland, I know. I think you're vastly underrating the California region at the time. Ray Stevens is one of the greatest draws of all time, Freedie Blassie was huge there. Granted, he was a little before Piper's time, but it isn't as though the West Coast was devoid of wrestling; if anything, it's actually more comparable to JCP and Florida got huge, perhaps the most charismatic star in wrestling. And make no mistake about it, Hogan would have been very aware of Dusty.

Oh, and just so we can be clear, if I'm correct, Jesse also spent a good amount of time, non?

Quote:
There was: a turn at the end of Wrestlemania when Roddy Piper left him in the ring after the main event followed by a huge feud with Roddy Piper. He turned heel again in late 86 after a huge run with Roddy Piper.
Granted, which is fair, but Orndorff does show to have legs after his feud with Piper

Quote:
Gee if only one of us was in charge of running that thing.
Would you take into consideration my ideas of Jim Londos, Lonnie Mayne, and The Crusher, too?


Quote:
As in Piper's cronies and partner/second in the main event against Hogan?
Granted, no arguments here.

Quote:
Assuming this isn't sarcasm, Dusty would be the one that booked himself to win the world title in the main event of Starrcade 85 and then booked a Dusty Finish in said match to take it off of himself two weeks later.
Yes, because it wasn't like there was a payoff to come from an angle where a group of four rebellious heels, oh, I don't know, broke his ankle or nothing.



I want for you and I both to be on the same page here, so I want to make sure we agree on this; earlier, you state that for Hogan to get so huge, he needed Piper. The heel needs a worthy face to rise to the top, we agree. And Piper was more than worthy; together, he and Hogan did monster business.

From there, can we agree that the opposite must be equally true, that a heel needs a quality face to play off of, right?

If we can agree on all of the above, then we can both agree Dusty had a lot to do with getting the Four Horsemen over. And after all, that is just the Four Horsemen. You know, set the standard for all stables after them, no big deal, right? It isn't as though that would have a lasting effect on professional wrestling.

Quote:
In a feud that wouldn't have happened without Piper.
Again, very much granted.


Quote:
I'm sure this top spot had nothing to do with him being booker right?
Yes, because it wasn't like there was a catastrophic injury to the guy that was going to become face of the NWA and JCP around this time, right?

Say what you will, but Dusty did what he had to do, partially because he had the book, but also because that whole Magnum TA was going to be the biggest face ever thing didn't exactly pan out. And with a talent pool that was getting thinner and thinner as more talent left for the WWF, Dusty did what he had to do, and went with someone that was a proven draw. Sting wasn't ready yet, Steamboat was still in the WWF, what did you want him to do?

I won't sit here and tell you Dusty was the best booker in the world; he wasn't. The Dusty Finish sucks, to this day. What am I telling you that Dusty was throwing rocks at a man with a machine gun, and was probably in over his head.

Quote:
And his first singles title in the WWF, a string of incredibly well received matches with Flair, a good managing stint with Virgil, and a great performance in the Rumble. Not bad for a return from a guy known only for his talking.
1. He beat the Mountie. The lesser of the Rougeau's. Let's not make this more than it was, this was because Bret hadn't renewed his contract with the WWF, so the WWF took the belt off him, and wanted to keep it on someone until Bret could take it back.

2. If we're using that argument, Dusty got Dustin over in WCW

3. Not to sound like a snob; but do you know how easy it is to have a great performance in the Rumble? Greg Valentine did it, of all people.

4. The Flair matches, I'll give you.


Quote:
Actually it was closer to thirty or forty, but I'll only list the important ones here.

1994 - 1, a PPV main event
1996 - 2, one being a PPV main event at the biggest WCW show of the year
1997 - 7, four being PPV main events
1998 - 7, one being a PPV main event
1999 - 11, one being a title match on PPV
And do you admit that most of these matches absolutely stunk?

No, wait, I'm sorry; I'll do that for the both of us.

In 1994, Klunderbunker said of Lawler/Piper

Quote:
Rating: F. WHAT IN THE FUCK WAS THE POINT OF THIS??? It’s the second longest match of the night and it was AWFUL. Literally, 95%+ of that match was just punching. It wasn’t interesting, there was ZERO reason for this to end the show, and that kid was a freaking twat.

Why wasn’t the WWF Title match the main event? It couldn’t have been to send the fans home happy. They were asleep for the most part. Hart won so it’s not like they would have been sad. I’m at a loss for words on this and that’s not something that happens often. I seriously have no clue what they were thinking here.
In 1996, Klunderbunker said of Piper/Goldust;

Quote:
Goldust just gets the hell beaten out of him for the most part as some of Piper’s punches are either legit or the best fakes I’ve ever seen. The son of the Dream gets in the car and Piper (or an extremely average impersonator) jumps onto the hood to keep from getting crushed. Goldust leaves and Piper chases him in a white Bronco. This doesn’t finish here so we’ll come back to the rest of this as it happens. This was REALLY bad as it was all taped and clearly edited and the crowd is of course silent after five minutes of just sitting around watching a TV monitor.
He then said of Hogan/Piper:

Quote:
Rating: F. This was AWFUL as both guys are old as hell and can’t move so of course they get the equivalent of Wrestlemania. The non-title thing is bait and switch to the core and it pissed off a LOT of people. They had a rematch at Superbrawl where Savage turned NWO and kept the title on Hogan. This was just flat out bad and everyone knew it would be.
In said Superbrawl 1997, Klunderbunker said;

Quote:
Rating: F. The match sucked as neither guy could move in the slightest so they were put in back to back PPV main events. The ending is completely stupid as no one got what was going on and it’s designed to make Hogan look even weaker than before. Terrible main event and one of the worst ever. Tony not mentioning Savage pulling him under the ropes after the match doesn’t help either as we saw Savage pull him.
Have I made my point?



Quote:
In other words, not only was Piper around, but in 1997, he was on top when WCW was completely dominating the WWF. So in other words:



Many years after Dusty did. That sounds like longevity to me.
Can you really call it longevity when by his own admission, Piper could barely walk?


Quote:
In other words, Piper had a bigger period than Dusty in a year's time,
While Dusty had about four more years doing consistent business, when Roddy dropped off the face of the Earth

Quote:
influenced the next big feud that broke his record,
While Dusty influenced the greatest face of all time, was influential in getting over the greatest stable of all time, and became a pioneer in the changing landscape of professional wrestling.

Quote:
had another big run on top twelve years after his first one (in front of a FAR bigger audience no less), and had better in ring performances on top of it (as someone who has seen all of these two's big matches on top, trust me on this).
Do you want to look back at the scores you just gave?
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:58 AM
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Ah what the hell, I got time; I can't edit my first post, otherwise I'd add it there. But hey, we can only do what we can

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As for Dusty - His time will come but on balance, Piper did more with less power and had a bigger impact on the biz in general, Piper got onto MTV, Dusty got to Wrestlemania 6 years late for the party, had he not gotten so comfy booking in JCP and jumped after WM1, he could have been as big as Hogan...
first of all, I'd love everyone to take a look at the sig this man has... Yes, that isn't a biased man, in the slightest.

Second off, that bigger impact line is utter horseshit. Without Dusty (as well as other pioneers like Jesse and Billy Graham), Piper doesn't get his podium to give off all these famous rants you're speaking of. You're speaking in terms that says Dusty needed the WWF to achieve his fame; he didn't. He was famous long before Wrestlemania, and had left his mark long before Wrestlemania was even a thought.

For that matter, let me add this; that Wrestlemania you speak of? Would you like to know its predecessor? That would be Starrcade, the first closed circuit wrestling event. Wanna guess who was pretty damn instrumental at getting that off the ground?




As it pertains to Group 1, I've finally decided I'm going with JR, not only because of his commentating, but that he also put together the pieces of the Attitude Era. Jim Ross changed the entire landscape of wrestling, and all he needed to do was acquire three talents; Stone Cold, The Rock, and Mick Foley. Heenan was a great talent, who helped draw some sizable money, both in the AWA and the WWF. Ross not only sold PPV buys just on his ability to sell a PPV to the audience, but he also recruited the talents that he would sell, and helped to launch the most lucrative era in wrestling.

Oh, and fuck off with Moolah. Just like Eddie, is there any reason why she's on the ballot?

I digress, brother;
Jim Ross gets the second nod
But it was quite hard
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:42 AM
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I will say one thing about the Piper v. Hogan matches, and they were indeed overbooked and the swerve at Starrcade was fucking asinine and the Savage heel turn two months later was not done well either, is that they had a big time feel.

The crowd was HOT at Starrcade and pretty much stayed involved throughout. Wrestling acumen aside and screwy finish aside, I enjoyed the atmosphere.

Flash forward to Havoc 97 and they had a far better match. Not that bad actually (not good either). That being said, Piper did jump the shark in 97. His nonsense leading up to Uncensored was fucking awful. The Alcatraz promo still makes me cringe. His random feud with Flair seemed rushed too. But he did have his moments. Ultimately I loved his 80s run and will always have fond memories. And both he and Dusty were indispensable when it came to putting wrestling on the map.
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