Gold Medal Ironman Match - Shawn Michaels (USA) vs Chris Benoit (CAN)

[TLC]

I've got to go with Benoit here. As people have pointed out his ride to the final have been pretty easy unlike Michaels who barely eeked out victories. Benoit has far more experience in Iron Man matches and is undefeated in them and unlike Michaels, also he did not need over time in his hour long iron man match to get the victory. I believe he is far to vicious and has to much of a versatile wrestler to be beaten my Michaels in this type of match. I could see HBK getting a few pinfalls over Benoit but Benoit would be to much for Shawn and would be losing this match.

[TheOneBigWill]

Originally Posted by IC25

The build-up to the day I lost my virginity was a 60-minute Iron Man match. The actual even lasted 18 seconds. Didn't change my mindset going in.

That may have been, but I'm sure you wouldn't have been none-to-happy, had an alarm of some sort went off RIGHT before you were about to hit orgasm, only to be pushed off and blow for nothing - then only to discover you could go ahead and re-begin after losing all that stamina. The point? IT FUCKS WITH YOUR HEAD. (in your case, literally)

Originally Posted by IC25

I was only referring to your challenge. I had not seen a time frame in there.

Just to clarify, this was the initial post by D-Man that started the timeline situation..

Originally Posted by D-Man

HBK had an incredible win/loss record during his first main event run, which lasted for almost 2 years. His only loss from his championship run after WM12 was against Sycho Sid, and he gained the championship back 2 months later. Then it was vacated due to injury (or controversy... whatever) and he regained it at the Monteal Screwjob and held it until Wrestlemania against Steve Austin.

This tramples over Chris Benoit's lackluster reign. I don't care how tough he portrays himself, HBK is more experienced and has a better track record as a top spot superstar.

Now, if you can't spot the BS in that entire paragraph then you've been partners in life WAY too long to accept one another could ever be wrong.

First; HBK's incredible win/loss record was all of 4-1-2. (Mania XII-Survivor Series 96, PPV's only) To my knowledge, he never defended the Championship on Raw's, either. (this is probably incorrect though - as I seem to recall a title match against Goldust, and Jerry Lawler)

In retrospect, Benoit's win/loss record was all of 4-1. (Mania XX-Summerslam 04) He had better overall victories against higher named, more accomplished, individuals as well. (Triple H - three times, Shawn Michaels - twice, or three times including Raw, & Kane - twice or more including Raw & other Raw matches, since the title was actually defended more often in 2004 than it ever was in 1996.)

So, for D-Man to say Shawn Michaels had a better Championship reign than Benoit is pure crap.

So, this is also why it helps to know what you're replying to.. instead of just jumping to someone else's aid.

Originally Posted by IC25

I'll re-watch it, but I do recall the re-match having the no-weapon stip. I've been wrong before. Even still, whether they could use the ladder or not, they both had an even playing field and Michaels won.

Razor won the first. What was the point again?

Seriously, I don't see the point in Michaels winning or losing. I may have lost track of why this was of any importance, especially since Benoit has actually won more Ladder matches than Shawn Michaels and not lost half as many.

[HBK-aholic]

You are ALL focusing WAY too much on the 'Benoit loses big match situations' thing. That MAYBE should have been a passing comment, but definately doesn't warrant the debate it's caused. Guess what? Benoit has lost big match situations. So has Shawn. You can argue numbers, and whose won more as much as you like, it's not as important as it's being made out to be and takes awy from the bigger picture here - Shawn is the better wrestler. He has stamina, he has power, he has speed. So does Benoit, but not to the extent Shawn does.

I'm not going to attempt to belittle anyones opinion here, Benoit was fantastic. But Shawn is better and there isn't an argument that's convinced me otherwise. The fact people pointed to the Shawn/Benoit singles match just seemed weaker when anyone who bothered to re-watch the match saw that Shawn was about to win, and would have had it not been for an interference by Triple H. Seeings as Triple H can't interfere here, Benoit wouldn't get the win.

I've argued why Shawn should win above, so I won't bother adding more. But seriously, calm it with the 'win/loss' thing, it means so little here, and all you're doing is throwing matches at each other.

[TheOneBigWill]

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

Shawn is the better wrestler.

My GAWD I have waited for you in this thread. This could be good.

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

He has stamina

And yet Chris Benoit has done everything Shawn has, as far as Iron Man's and Royal Rumble's.. only to a better extent. Strange.

He's lasted longer in his 2004 Rumble victory, than Shawn has lasted in the two he won - combined.

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

he has power

Benoit choked the Big Show out of the ring to win his Rumble match. Let me rephrase this.. Benoit.. choked the shit.. out of.. a 500+ lbs monster.

When did Shawn do anything remotely close to this again, that shows Shawn can match Benoit's power and strength?

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

he has speed

I'll give you this one. Shawn will need to be able to run faster than Benoit, because Benoit will be chasing his ass.

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

So does Benoit, but not to the extent Shawn does.

Uhm.. okay, kinda. But only if you're about to follow that up with "Benoit has more."

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

I'm not going to attempt to belittle anyones opinion here, Benoit was fantastic.

Glad you agree.

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

But Shawn is better and there isn't an argument that's convinced me otherwise.

Thats because you refuse to accept Shawn Michaels could ever lose. You refuse to accept Shawn Michaels is going bald. And you refuse to accept that Shawn Michaels is NOT your damn Husband.

You might be a Rebecca, but you aren't his Rebecca. Oh yeah, I went there.

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

I've argued why Shawn should win above, so I won't bother adding more.

You need to argue more. Truth is, you know I love Shawn Michaels and Chris Benoit isn't technically even in my Top 5 list of favorites. But Shawn is out-matched here.

When you look at the road to how both men got here, Shawn is winded, drained and on "E". Benoit is still healthy, full of energy, and ready to win some Gold.

Shawn has stamina and the ability to find extra wind, and an uncanny ability to continue when others can't. But when you consider Benoit can do all of those same things on similar levels, then you add in the fact that Benoit's road to this match wasn't nearly as hard as Shawn's.. even you can't be this blind, can you?

[HBK-aholic]

Originally Posted by TheOneBigWill

My GAWD I have waited for you in this thread. This could be good.

Funny, I posted in this thread days ago, and even debated a point you made.

And yet Chris Benoit has done everything Shawn has, as far as Iron Man's and Royal Rumble's.. only to a better extent. Strange.

If you call being pinned 6 times in your 2 Iron Man matches better, as opposed to Shawn's 2, then sure, I agree.

He's lasted longer in his 2004 Rumble victory, than Shawn has lasted in the two he won - combined.

Is that because Shawn couldn't? You're a big enough fan of Shawn to know that isn't the case.

Benoit choked the Big Show out of the ring to win his Rumble match. Let me rephrase this.. Benoit.. choked the shit.. out of.. a 500+ lbs monster.

When did Shawn do anything remotely close to this again, that shows Shawn can match Benoit's power and strength?

Big Show isn't exactly the greatest of wrestlers now, is he? Shawn's wrestled his fair share of big guys as well. He's also had better matches with pretty much everyone compared to Benoit. Benoit needs help to defeat Shawn.

I'll give you this one. Shawn will need to be able to run faster than Benoit, because Benoit will be chasing his ass.

And it won't be the other way around, why?

Thats because you refuse to accept Shawn Michaels could ever lose.

Of course I can. He's lost matches. He shouldn't lose this one.

You refuse to accept Shawn Michaels is going bald. And you refuse to accept that Shawn Michaels is NOT your damn Husband.

You might be a Rebecca, but you aren't his Rebecca. Oh yeah, I went there.

I deleted what I wrote here. Hmm...

You need to argue more. Truth is, you know I love Shawn Michaels and Chris Benoit isn't technically even in my Top 5 list of favorites. But Shawn is out-matched here.

How? I'm really not understanding what Benoit has done that Shawn hasn't? That Shawn can't? I'm really not understanding how people can say that, when Benoit needed HELP to stop himself from losing to Shawn before. I've put that point to you twice now, after you brought the match up, but there's no argument against it.

When you look at the road to how both men got here, Shawn is winded, drained and on "E". Benoit is still healthy, full of energy, and ready to win some Gold.

Shawn has stamina and the ability to find extra wind, and an uncanny ability to continue when others can't. But when you consider Benoit can do all of those same things on similar levels, then you add in the fact that Benoit's road to this match wasn't nearly as hard as Shawn's.. even you can't be this blind, can you?

Exactly. And you're not taking that into account. If Benoit was oh so similar to Shawn he'd have been just as big as him. In practice, he isn't even close to being considered an amazing wrestler by most.

[TheOneBigWill]

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

Funny, I posted in this thread days ago, and even debated a point you made.

I will go search for them. Likely won't reply to them, unless I see something of note that isn't being covered here - or something that hasn't been covered, yet, though.

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

If you call being pinned 8 times in your 2 Iron Man matches better, as opposed to Shawn's 2, then sure, I agree.

No, I consider the fact that Benoit - regardless of how many times he's been defeated IN his Iron Man matches, has still managed to win both without controversy.

Shawn tied in one, and won the other after a controversial ending stopped the "hour" long match, and restarted a "sudden death" situation.

The way I see it, Shawn needs Earl Hebner in his pocket, Vince with a ring bell, and the time keeper to hope he can speed up the hour when the Crossface gets locked on.

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

Big Show isn't exactly the greatest of wrestlers now, is he? Shawn's wrestled his fair share of big guys as well. He's also had better matches with pretty much everyone compared to Benoit. Benoit needs help to defeat Shawn.

The situation in question wasn't whether or not Big Show was great. It was over who (HBK or Benoit) was stronger. I answered in giving you an example of Benoit's strength and power. I asked you to give me a rebuttal of how HBK has equalled that. You have not.

To my knowledge, HBK isn't stronger. He isn't bigger in size, either. Now, does this give Benoit an advantage? Yes. But is it one thats so big that it makes a difference? No.

As you've pointed out Shawn has made a career out of defeating bigger guys. But Benoit isn't just "bigger", he's more technical as well. Shawn struggles against technically athlete's. (Angle, Hart)

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

How? I'm really not understanding what Benoit has done that Shawn hasn't? That Shawn can't? I'm really not understanding how people can say that, when Benoit needed HELP to stop himself from losing to Shawn before. I've put that point to you twice now, after you brought the match up, but there's no argument against it.

But I've noticed people HAVE brought forth arguments that prove how Shawn may not have won. People kick out of Sweet Chin Music almost all the time now. Even back in the day, it didn't always put away opponents.

And lets for purpose sake say he hits it, and it earns him a pinfall. Thats 1 pinfall. Where does he go from there? Did you ever think maybe the reason he didn't earn but 1 "win" over Hart in an hour-plus, was because he simply didn't have the overall moveset to put someone away more than once???

Benoit has several moves that will end HBK. And even if you add in the moves HBK has used to get victories, in theory and logic, Benoit has more.. which means = Benoit wins.

Superkick, Modified Figure-4, McMahon/Sharpshooter/Threatening Time Keepers. Thats all Shawn has.

Crossface, Diving Headbutt, Suplexes, Sharpshooter. Benoit has other ways as well, but those are his main weapons.

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

Exactly. And you're not taking that into account. If Benoit was oh so similar to Shawn he'd have been just as big as him. In practice, he isn't even close to being considered an amazing wrestler by most.

Uhm. No. Chris Benoit is and will forever be more "technical" than Shawn Michaels could ever dream of being. However, Shawn will be a bigger name - because the one thing HBK has that Benoit never did (and for obvious reasons never will) that helped him become a star.. was charisma, and character.

Personality is a wonderful thing.. but its not going to do shit when you're being stretched by the Crossface, except for buy you sympathy and moral support by the fans after he loses.

[HBK-aholic]

Originally Posted by TheOneBigWill

I will go search for them. Likely won't reply to them, unless I see something of note that isn't being covered here - or something that hasn't been covered, yet, though.

It was simply you bringing up that Benoit had defeated Shawn, and me showing that it was Triple H's interference that won it, not Benoit's skill.

No, I consider the fact that Benoit - regardless of how many times he's been defeated IN his Iron Man matches, has still managed to win both without controversy.

Shawn tied in one, and won the other after a controversial ending stopped the "hour" long match, and restarted a "sudden death" situation.

I saw you trying to argue how this was controversial earlier, I don't see it myself. If Hart couldn't keep the pace for an extra 2 minutes, and Shawn capitalises, not sure how that reflects badly on Shawn.

The way I see it, Shawn needs Earl Hebner in his pocket, Vince with a ring bell, and the time keeper to hope he can speed up the hour when the Crossface gets locked on.

Sure. It's not like Shawn has ever won a match without that.

The situation in question wasn't whether or not Big Show was great. It was over who (HBK or Benoit) was stronger. I answered in giving you an example of Benoit's strength and power. I asked you to give me a rebuttal of how HBK has equalled that. You have not.

But it's kind of the point. For a large guy, he isn't a great wrestler. Which is why it isn't AS impressive as you're making it out to be. It's impressive, sure, but just don't get carried away with it.

As you've pointed out Shawn has made a career out of defeating bigger guys. But Benoit isn't just "bigger", he's more technical as well. Shawn struggles against technically athlete's. (Angle, Hart)

Um, he's defeated both those guys, so I have NO idea what you're saying here.

He also didn't allow Hart, a technical wrestler, to get a pinfall over him in their Iron Man match. So, again, not exactly a great point.

But I've noticed people HAVE brought forth arguments that prove how Shawn may not have won. People kick out of Sweet Chin Music almost all the time now. Even back in the day, it didn't always put away opponents.

What does? People don't ALWAYS tap out to the Crossface. Re-watch the match. Shawn was SET FOR THE WIN there, it's plainly obvious, and you'd agree if it didn't go against what you're arguing now.

And lets for purpose sake say he hits it, and it earns him a pinfall. Thats 1 pinfall. Where does he go from there? Did you ever think maybe the reason he didn't earn but 1 "win" over Hart in an hour-plus, was because he simply didn't have the overall moveset to put someone away more than once???

Statistically, if Benoit gets a pinfall over Shawn, Shawn will get 3 over him. Benoit: Pinned 6 times in 90 minutes. Shawn: Pinned 2 times in 90 minutes. I realise this is a 60 minute match instead, but it we look at THOSE figures, with Shawn's opponent a wrestler who is arguably better than Benoit, then Benoit gets pinned 3 times, Shawn gets pinned 0.

Benoit has several moves that will end HBK. And even if you add in the moves HBK has used to get victories, in theory and logic, Benoit has more.. which means = Benoit wins.

Superkick, Modified Figure-4, McMahon/Sharpshooter/Threatening Time Keepers. Thats all Shawn has.

Crossface, Diving Headbutt, Suplexes, Sharpshooter. Benoit has other ways as well, but those are his main weapons.

If it comes down to it BOTH have extremely diverse movesets and styles as is shown from the sheer amount of matches Shawn can participate well in. This point doesn't work overly well against either, seeings as both are great wrestlers.

Uhm. No. Chris Benoit is and will forever be more "technical" than Shawn Michaels could ever dream of being. However, Shawn will be a bigger name - because the one thing HBK has that Benoit never did (and for obvious reasons never will) that helped him become a star.. was charisma, and character.

Personality is a wonderful thing.. but its not going to do shit when you're being stretched by the Crossface, except for buy you sympathy and moral support by the fans after he loses.

Benoit is a technically amazing wrestler, but does he have the same flare as Shawn? Shawn isn't new to technical wrestling, and he knows his way around the ring in those situations.

[Tastycles]

Who knows who the only man to have been in more than one iron man match and to have won them both is? The answer is Benoit. Benoit beat both Triple H, a man that Shawn Michaels has lost a lot of matches to and Kurt Angle, a man that Michaels couldn't beat in an iron man match when given the opportunity. Michaels has never beaten Benoit, but Benoit made him tap out. Benoit has got more in his arsenal, and he is one of the best reversalists in wrestling history, Benoit wins.

[Remix]

Originally Posted by HBK-aholic

It was simply you bringing up that Benoit had defeated Shawn, and me showing that it was Triple H's interference that won it, not Benoit's skill.

A win's a won regardless of the cercumstances. Benoit's beaten HBK. HBK hasn't done the same. Advantage Benoit.

I saw you trying to argue how this was controversial earlier, I don't see it myself. If Hart couldn't keep the pace for an extra 2 minutes, and Shawn capitalises, not sure how that reflects badly on Shawn.

I'm going to draw a paralell as to why those two minutes added on arent as trivial as you're making them out to be Becca. My university has the largest indoor gym in the country, and among the things that are contained within it is an olympic sized swimming pool. In fact the team GB swimming team wanted to train there. However they dont. Because the pool is 3 cm (a bit more than an inch) too short. Those little things line two minutes or an inch count.

Sure. It's not like Shawn has ever won a match without that.

and it's not like Benoit hasn't won a match without Triple H's interferance. Deuce.

But it's kind of the point. For a large guy, he isn't a great wrestler. Which is why it isn't AS impressive as you're making it out to be. It's impressive, sure, but just don't get carried away with it.

If choking out the Big Show isnt that impressive because he isnt great, how about German suplexing Brock Lesnar three times and making him tap out to the crossface? After beating John Cena earlier in the night. Show me something that HBK's done that A) demonstrates that much strength and B) shows that HBK has the ebndurance required to 'beat' (because the ref didnt see Lesnar tap out, so Benoit lost to Lesnar) two younger wrestlers, who were both in good shape and larger (and stronger) than himself. Hell it took HBK an hour to get the pinfall on John Cena. Benoit made him tap and had enough left in the tank to make Lesnar do the same. Advantage Benoit.

What does? People don't ALWAYS tap out to the Crossface. Re-watch the match. Shawn was SET FOR THE WIN there, it's plainly obvious, and you'd agree if it didn't go against what you're arguing now.

You're right Becca. People dont always tap to the crossface. Just like people dont always get pinned after the Superkick. However, it doesn't matter if HBK taps out to it every time. HBK only has to tap out to it as many times as necessaray. Not to mention that Benoit can A) make people tap out to moves other than the Crossface and B) get pinfalls as well as make them tap out. While I'm sure that you can correct me on this (probably many times) But I cant think of that many times HBK has gotten the win in singles competition after a move that isn't a Superkick. However, since contesting this point is arguing hypothetical scenarios in a hypothetical match, we'll call it Deuce.

Statistically, if Benoit gets a pinfall over Shawn, Shawn will get 3 over him. Benoit: Pinned 6 times in 90 minutes. Shawn: Pinned 2 times in 90 minutes. I realise this is a 60 minute match instead, but it we look at THOSE figures, with Shawn's opponent a wrestler who is arguably better than Benoit, then Benoit gets pinned 3 times, Shawn gets pinned 0.

I'm not going to argue this. Because I hate statistics. We'll call it Advantage Shawn though.

If it comes down to it BOTH have extremely diverse movesets and styles as is shown from the sheer amount of matches Shawn can participate well in. This point doesn't work overly well against either, seeings as both are great wrestlers.

agreed. Deuce.

Benoit is a technically amazing wrestler, but does he have the same flare as Shawn? Shawn isn't new to technical wrestling, and he knows his way around the ring in those situations.

Question, what does flair have to do with ability to win an hour long match? Wouldn't wasting energy with flashy moves be a bad thing anyway? Shawn's a great wrestler Becca. However, Benopit takes this for four reasons (listed in order of significance:

1) He's better than HBK
2) He's less tired than HBK at this stage in the competition
3) He's fitter than HBK anyway
4) He's got the homefield advantage.