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View Poll Results: Bret Hart vs Kurt Angle, Submission Match
Bret Hart 52 54.17%
Kurt Angle 44 45.83%
Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #21  
Old 01-26-2010, 06:36 AM
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It doesn't matter that Angle is a freaking machine. He's tapped out before as well as another noted submission artist in Chris Benoit. As it has been mentioned before, everybody has broken out of the Ankle Lock at least once in every match and sometimes multiple times. Hell even HBK was in the Ankle Lock for like two minutes after giving up. Hart would be smart enough to apply the Sharpshooter in the middle of the ring and work on Kurt Angle's neck and back during the match so he won't get to the ropes. If this was Olympic style wrestling, Kurt would win but this ain't Olympic style wrestling. Hart goes over Angle.
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  #22  
Old 01-26-2010, 07:15 AM
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Yeah Angle's Olympic Gold means little her,e otherwise he's technically unbeatable as every argument will centre around "but he won the Olympics" which kind of makes any match he's in redundant. In pro wrestling terms, Hart's sharpshooter was never broken, whereas everyone's broken the Ankle Lock before, and at WM HBK held on for what seemed like 10 mins before tapping, showing it probably doesn't hurt as much as the Sharpshooter.
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  #23  
Old 01-26-2010, 08:39 AM
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OMG people... cut the crapola..

GOD FORBID Kurt Angle taps out in a submission match once or twice in his career against the likes of someone like Chris Benoit... gee, that must make him totally suck at submission matches, right?!?

You want REAL stats? Let's take a look:

Bret Hart's Notable Submission Matches
Jerry Lawler @ Summerslam 1993 - Bret loses after failing to release Lawler from the Sharpshooter.
Bob Backlund @ Survivor Series 1994 - Bret loses after Davey Boy throws in the towel
Bob Backlund @ WM XI - Bret wins after submitting Backlund with his own Crossface Chickenwing
Steve Austin @ WM13 - Bret wins after Austin passes out

Record: 2-2

Kurt Angle's Notable Submission Matches
Chris Benoit @ Backlash 2000 - Angle loses in an Ultimate Submission Match 4-3 (overtime)
Chris Benoit @ Judgement Day 2000 - Angle wins the second of the 2 out of 3 falls match (a submission match) and goes on to win the entire match afterwards
(Honorable Mention - Angle forced Hulk Hogan to tap out at King of the Ring 2002)

Record: 4-4 (if you count every tapout of the submission matches)


Judging by these statistics, we can only look at things this way:
-Angle and Bret Hart have even records in submission matches (cancels each other out)
-Bret Hart defeated Steve Austin by submission, but Kurt Angle defeated Hulk Hogan by submission (cancels each other out)

The tiebreakers here are in experience and difficulty. Even though their records are the same, Kurt Angle has technically been in more submission matches than Bret Hart. On top of that, while Bret Hart was facing Bob Backlund, Kurt Angle was facing Chris-fucking-Benoit.

Kurt Angle has more experience in this match set and has defeated more difficult opponents than Bret Hart.

Kurt Angle wins here... you can't deny it.
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  #24  
Old 01-26-2010, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The D-Man View Post
OMG people... cut the crapola..

GOD FORBID Kurt Angle taps out in a submission match once or twice in his career against the likes of someone like Chris Benoit... gee, that must make him totally suck at submission matches, right?!?

You want REAL stats? Let's take a look:

Bret Hart's Notable Submission Matches
Jerry Lawler @ Summerslam 1993 - Bret loses after failing to release Lawler from the Sharpshooter.
Bob Backlund @ Survivor Series 1994 - Bret loses after Davey Boy throws in the towel
Bob Backlund @ WM XI - Bret wins after submitting Backlund with his own Crossface Chickenwing
Steve Austin @ WM13 - Bret wins after Austin passes out

Record: 2-2

Kurt Angle's Notable Submission Matches
Chris Benoit @ Backlash 2000 - Angle loses in an Ultimate Submission Match 4-3 (overtime)
Chris Benoit @ Judgement Day 2000 - Angle wins the second of the 2 out of 3 falls match (a submission match) and goes on to win the entire match afterwards
(Honorable Mention - Angle forced Hulk Hogan to tap out at King of the Ring 2002)

Record: 4-4 (if you count every tapout of the submission matches)


Judging by these statistics, we can only look at things this way:
-Angle and Bret Hart have even records in submission matches (cancels each other out)
-Bret Hart defeated Steve Austin by submission, but Kurt Angle defeated Hulk Hogan by submission (cancels each other out)

The tiebreakers here are in experience and difficulty. Even though their records are the same, Kurt Angle has technically been in more submission matches than Bret Hart. On top of that, while Bret Hart was facing Bob Backlund, Kurt Angle was facing Chris-fucking-Benoit.

Kurt Angle has more experience in this match set and has defeated more difficult opponents than Bret Hart.

Kurt Angle wins here... you can't deny it.
1. You cannot simultaneously count a loss for Bret against Backlund (the Helen Hart towel throw) AND a win for him over Austin, since Bret didn't submit in the first case and Austin didn't submit in the second case.

2. Angle made Hogan tap out? Well so did Lex Luger. Does that mean Luger goes over Hart in a submission match?

3. Angle has been in more submission matches BECAUSE submission specialists like Bret Hart popularized the art form, allowing guys like Benoit and Jericho to become more popular with their styles.

I am not sure who I am backing yet, but I just had to kick D-Man in the balls.
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  #25  
Old 01-26-2010, 10:48 AM
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I'd even say that demeriting Bret for the submission match against Lawler is a poor argument. He still basically won that match, only losing it because he wouldn't release the Sharpshooter. Not only did he win, but he put in a dominating performance in that match.

Also, at the time, the Crossface Chicken-Wing was put over as quite possibly the most dangerous hold in professional wrestling. Backlund was a maniac, and they put that move over so much that he even did it to backstage workers, kayfabe breaking arms.

Plus, Bret's win over Stone Cold Steve Austin was in two words, historic and significant. It truly helped launched Stone Cold into the phenomenon that he wound up being. It was a perfect match, with Bret methodically taking out Austin's leg, and the match itself telling the story, with the fans really starting to get behind Austin as a result of this match. None of Angle's submission match victories are as significant as this match was.

Furthermore, Bret Hart is a career 2-0 vs. Chris Benoit, making him submit to the Sharpshooter both times.

Kurt Angle is a good WRESTLER, sure. But as a submission artist? I'm not really that sure about that. If Kurt is so good at MMA, why hasn't he had a professional match yet? It's a poor excuse for him to cite TNA's work schedule as well. Lashley is doing just fine juggling both right now. The Anklelock is much easier to break out of than the Sharpshooter. The Sharpshooter also requires much more technique than the ankelock. Also, who else remembers when Daniel Puder nearly snapped Angle's arm when he had him locked in a Kimura? Angle had no idea how to get out of that. If Kurt found himself locked in a Sharpshooter, I highly doubt he'd be able to find a way out.

Dan Henderson is a very accomplished Mixed Martial Artist. He represented the USA in the Summer Olympics in 1992 and 1996. Despite this, he holds ONE career victory out of TWENTY-FIVE by submission. He has THREE career submission losses. Just because someone competed in the Olympics, it doesn't mean they are submission wrestlers.

Bret takes it here, just barely, but he takes it.
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  #26  
Old 01-26-2010, 11:08 AM
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Default Bret goes over on Angle

Nobody can deny that Angle is an awsome wrestler and a gold medal winner but in reality the ankle lock is lame compaired to the sharpshooter. It looks like it is increadibly easy to escape threw roll threw or just turning over and kicking your opponant in the jaw. I always thought Angle should have had a better move than the leg lock. As for Bret in submission matches, nobody has brought up his up bringing in the Dungeon! He was raised by a father who would ligitamatly apply submission holds and send his kids to school with thier eyeballs red from broken blood vessels from the pressure applied. Brets upbringing and submission background from shoot wrestling technics provide a sufficiant counter to Angles intensity. Bret was no slouch as a amature wrestler either so I still think Hart should go over on this one. This matchup would have been one for the ages as two of the most technical wrestlers locked it up.
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  #27  
Old 01-26-2010, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IC25 View Post
1. You cannot simultaneously count a loss for Bret against Backlund (the Helen Hart towel throw) AND a win for him over Austin, since Bret didn't submit in the first case and Austin didn't submit in the second case.
Ok, then cancel them out. Either way, it makes no difference, whatsoever. (As if Hart could've escaped from the move, anyway.)

Quote:
2. Angle made Hogan tap out? Well so did Lex Luger. Does that mean Luger goes over Hart in a submission match?
I'm merely stating that Angle did something that Hart didn't. Just in the same way that Hart defeated Austin in a submission match and Angle didn't.

These were just statistics that I listed... nothing more. I have to list them in the interest of fairness. We're comparing Angle to Hart... not Luger, not Sting, and certainly not your boyfriend Vader. Picking my stats apart by including the likes of Luger really has no bearing on this.

Quote:
3. Angle has been in more submission matches BECAUSE submission specialists like Bret Hart popularized the art form, allowing guys like Benoit and Jericho to become more popular with their styles.
Well good for him. So I guess HBK has an advantage in ladder matches over Edge just because he was in the first one and "popularized the art form"?? Your logic makes no sense and has no bearing here.

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You kicked me in the balls with your bare foot but I just kicked you with a steel-toed boot.
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  #28  
Old 01-26-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LascoX View Post
Nobody can deny that Angle is an awsome wrestler and a gold medal winner but in reality the ankle lock is lame compaired to the sharpshooter.
I love how everyone is choosing to view this matchup so one-dimensionally. This isn't a match where Angle puts Bret in an Angle Lock and we wait patiently to see if Bret would tap from it (or reverse it) and then they stop and reverse the positions using the Sharpshooter. This is a submission MATCH. If you still don't understand what I'm saying, then I'll spell it out a little better for all of you... they actually WRESTLE in this match, too.

Most of the readers' logic in this is "BRETTS SHARPSHUTRZ BETR THN ANGELS LEG LOK SO HEE WINZ" and this is a crappy way to decide the winner. Both men are extremely skilled in the ring, and in the end, they have to utilize their skills in order to lock in the submission of their choosing on their opponent. This can be a figure four, sleeper hold, sharpshooter, ankle lock, octupus hold, or the finger poke of doom.

I feel that the difference-maker here is the skillsets possessed by both of these men. One is a master inside of a pro-wrestling ring. The other is a master inside a wrestling ring, a Greco-Roman wrestling mat, and is very skilled inside of an octagon. Angle just has a more diverse arsenal and can devise more ways to lock in his submissions on Bret.

Not to mention Angle's stamina is absolutely off the charts. Bret's competed in an hour-long Ironman match. But Kurt Angle has trained for the Olympics which involved what he refers to as "Exhaustion Training." He would run sprints up and down hills in Philidelphia and when he was exhausted to the point of where he would almost fall over, THAT'S when he would start his real wrestling practice to prepare for the Olympics. Sorry Bret... not even you can keep up with this.

This is not a matter of saying that Bret is bad, unskilled, or doesn't have stamina. It just means that Kurt Angle just happens to be better in these categories.
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Let's IP ban you and find out. Who the fuck are you kidding? Do you really think you understand the situation better than I do? Fuck off.
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I will say it though, this would be pretty fucking cool if it didnt suck ass
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Wait...a SMILEY with a LIGHTSABER!? God, no! Anything but that!
Are you going to hurl your virginity at me next???
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  #29  
Old 01-26-2010, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supernova View Post
Yeah Angle's Olympic Gold means little her,e otherwise he's technically unbeatable as every argument will centre around "but he won the Olympics" which kind of makes any match he's in redundant. In pro wrestling terms, Hart's sharpshooter was never broken, whereas everyone's broken the Ankle Lock before, and at WM HBK held on for what seemed like 10 mins before tapping, showing it probably doesn't hurt as much as the Sharpshooter.
uuuuummm, WHAT THE FUCK? Er, yes it DOES mean something here, since this is basically the same rules and purpose of an olympic type contest, its a fucking submission match man, the entire purpose is to use wrestling holds to make someone tap out to say it means NOTHING here is pretty damn absurd
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  #30  
Old 01-26-2010, 02:49 PM
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Yeah, this is stupid. Kurt Angle knows millions of wrestling moves, not only pro, but amateur as well that would wear down Bret Hart. People talk about him being able to roll out of the Ankle Lock, well what the fuck. So what. I've seen people throw Bret Hart off them with their legs. You're telling me someone as strong as Angle couldn't do that? I call bullshit. Angle uses the ankle lock and drops it into a grapevine, where does Hart go from there. He either taps, or gets his ankle broke. Then after his ankle breaks, I'm damn sure everytime Angle applies it, Hart would tap the fuck out.
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