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View Poll Results: Shawn Michaels vs Rocky Maivia, 45-minute Ironman
Shawn Michaels 38 56.72%
Rocky Maivia 29 43.28%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #11  
Old 02-07-2010, 05:10 AM
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I accidentally voted Rock when that shouldn't have been the case. Shawn Michaels would win this match and there's a simple reason why: Rock was bad in big match situations.

I don't think anyone could argue that this isn't a dream match. I mean really, how could you say otherwise right? That being said and universally agreed upon, name one big match in Rock's career that he won. Lost to Austin at both Manias for the title, lost to HHH in the ladder match, lost to HHH in the Iron Man match. He won the third Austin match when there was no pressure. Let's take a look at Rock's world title wins.

1st: vs. Mankind, Survivor Series 98. Mankind never submits and it's a Montreal ending.

2nd: vs. Mankind, Royal Rumble 99. I Quit match, again Mankind never submits during the match and it's the recording of his voice talking.

3rd: vs. Mankind, Raw. It's a ladder match and Mankind has it won when Big Show chokeslams Foley off the ladder.

4th: vs. HHH, Backlash 2000. Austin makes the save and beats up HHH with a chair after he hits the Pedigree so Rock can steal the title again.

5th: vs. HHH, Shane, Vince, KOTR 2000. Rock pins Vince to win HHH's title with help from kane and Taker.

6th: vs. Kurt Angle, No Way Out 2001. Hey he won something! So what if Kurt was a glorified rookie!

7th: vs. Angle and Undertaker, Vengeance 2003. Another time where he doesn't pin the champion and still gets the belt anyway.

So let's recap: 7 titles, ONE instance of getting a clean pin or submission with no help. By comparison, Shawn's title wins: (note, all WWE Titles only for Rock)

1st: vs. Bret Hart, Mania 12. Iron Man, you know the drill.

2nd: vs. Sid, RR 97, gets it with the superkick.

3rd: Survivor Series 97, ok that's a no brainer.

4th: Elimination Chamber, pins HHH clean for the belt.

Four wins and one not clean.

See what I mean? Shawn comes through in the clutch. he was 1-1 in the ladder matches and 1-1 with Kurt. Rock won but he rarely won fairly, and in something like the Olympics, cheating isn't going to happen I wouldn't think.
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  #12  
Old 02-07-2010, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by HBK-aholic View Post
Why you should vote for The Icon Shawn Michaels.



1. Shawn Michaels was built for this type of match
[left]Shawn Michaels, especially for his age, has an amzing rate of stamina. He's wrestled longer than 30 minutes more times than many people in the business, and even gone 45-60 minutes before; going on to win. Shawn, even as a 44 year old man can go with the best, and his style and stamina are things that have not decreased. His character now wrestles a different style to 20 years ago, yet both are tough, and interchangeable; he can use the one he thinks best whevever he needs to.

The Rock, by comparison, is more of a flashy, strength wrestler. Shawn is known for being beaten and battered yet still going on to win. Strength is something that does not phase Shawn Michaels in the same way it bothers lesser wrestlers. He defeated Big Van Vader; simply looking at the difference between the 2 shows what a feat this was. No matter how much you beat down on Shawn, he never gives up and can find a way to go on to win. This is what would happen here.
I'm going to have to call you out on this one. There ain't no way in hell that HBK has wrestled more thirty minute matches than anyone else. I only know of two or three HBK matches have gone over thirty minutes in the last six years. Back in the day Flair, Race, and Steamboat's matches would average 30 minutes. The Rock has had some pretty long matches himself and HBK has lost some of these "long matches" as you put it.

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Originally Posted by HBK-aholic View Post
[center]2. Shawn Michaels has won more Iron Man Matches

[left]I'm not usually one to refer to matches a person has won, however, the facts don't lie here. Shawn not only has more experience, he also lasted over an hour, and defeated Bret Hart; easily one of the best in the business. The Rock, by comparison, lost to Triple H. However, not to sound too harsh on The Rock, this was 5-5 until an interference. So we'll look logically at this. First, as many agree that Shawn Michaels is a better wrestler than Triple H, you can make an educated decision that Shawn could also defeat The Rock. Secondly, do you think that Shawn Michels would give away 5 pinfalls? Especially if he gave Bret Hart 0 in their match? Anyone who has followed Shawn's career like I have will know this is not his style.
Of course Shawn Michaels won't give up five pinfalls but believe me that he is going to give up some. The Rock has beaten many wrestlers who are on the same level as HBK shorter than 45 minutes. If I'm going to look at past experience of a match this length or more, HBK got 0 pinfalls in 45 minutes and I believe the Rock got 3 or 4. We can argue that HBK was facing Bret but HHH was at his best when he faced the Rock and Rock still got pinfalls off of him.[/quote]

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Originally Posted by HBK-aholic View Post
[center]3. Shawn Michaels is smarter and more versatile than The Rock

[left]In the ring, when it comes down to it, Shawn can change his styles in a second to fit the situation he's in. Which other wrestler can be 'king of the ladder matches' and 'Mr. Wrestlemania', while also having some absolutely epic Hardcore/Unsanctioned matches? The Rock is a fantastic wrestler - but is he a match for Shawn Michaels? His moveset, while flashy, may not be smart enough to defeat Shawn in this situation where he's quite simply in his element.
You don't think the Rock can change styles to fit the situation he's in? The Rock can brawl with the best and he can wrestle technical styles with the best of them as he has proven against Angle, Benoit, and Austin. The Rock has the People's Elbow and the Rock Bottom that has put down better wrestlers than HBK and I will get to the Sharpshooter in just a minute.

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Originally Posted by HBK-aholic View Post
[center]4. Shawn's use of submission is superior

[left]As we've seen, especially in recent years, Shawn has no qualms using any submission move. He was one of the first to use the Crippler Crossface after the death of Benoit, and has the strength to be able to work on The Rock in order to gain at least 1 submission count. He's used the Sharpshooter in high profile situations and also uses the Modified figure four leglock. While The Rock is no novice to submission moves, Shawn is the one with the upper hand here.

Superior to who? The Great Khali or Mark Henry? Of course HBK uses submissions but he has won any match by submission besides Montreal? HBK is no way superior to the Rock in submissions but lest we forget that HBK has tapped out to the Ankle Lock, STF, and the Sharpshooter which the Rock uses from time to time. I don't know if the Rock has made anybody tap out to the Sharpshooter but HBK has tapped out to submissions more times than the Rock so HBK is not superior in that regard.

Nice try.
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  #13  
Old 02-07-2010, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Jerry Lawler View Post
I'm going to have to call you out on this one.
Well yeah, your disrespect of Shawn is about as obvious as my obsession.

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There ain't no way in hell that HBK has wrestled more thirty minute matches than anyone else.
If you'd read my post, I said that he's wrestled more than many, not everyone. Nowadays, PPV main events rarely go beyond that.

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I only know of two or three HBK matches have gone over thirty minutes in the last six years.
Why are the last 6 years important? Is the match taking place 6 years ago? Otherwise I'm lost.

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Back in the day Flair, Race, and Steamboat's matches would average 30 minutes.
Good for them.

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The Rock has had some pretty long matches himself and HBK has lost some of these "long matches" as you put it.
But as point 2 shows, The Rock has lost more.

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Of course Shawn Michaels won't give up five pinfalls but believe me that he is going to give up some.
Does that matter? The point is The Rock will give up more - the important part with this being an iron man match.

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The Rock has beaten many wrestlers who are on the same level as HBK shorter than 45 minutes.
And Shawn has beaten better wresters than the Rock in less. There's no point to this.

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If I'm going to look at past experience of a match this length or more, HBK got 0 pinfalls in 45 minutes and I believe the Rock got 3 or 4. We can argue that HBK was facing Bret but HHH was at his best when he faced the Rock and Rock still got pinfalls off of him.
I'll spin this around the other way - Shawn was pinned 0 times in 45 minutes, The Rock, 4-5. And as Bret is a superior opponent to Triple H, you see this point rests in Shawns favour.

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You don't think the Rock can change styles to fit the situation he's in?
In the same way as Shawn? Not a chance. What is The Rock known for? Being 'the most electrifying man in sports entertainment', working a crowd, his promos. None of them mean anything in these matches.

Quote:
The Rock can brawl with the best and he can wrestle technical styles with the best of them as he has proven against Angle, Benoit, and Austin. The Rock has the People's Elbow and the Rock Bottom that has put down better wrestlers than HBK and I will get to the Sharpshooter in just a minute.
Seeings as there are very few wrestlers better than Shawn, I'd love to know who you mean.




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Superior to who? The Great Khali or Mark Henry? Of course HBK uses submissions but he has won any match by submission besides Montreal? HBK is no way superior to the Rock in submissions but lest we forget that HBK has tapped out to the Ankle Lock, STF, and the Sharpshooter which the Rock uses from time to time. I don't know if the Rock has made anybody tap out to the Sharpshooter but HBK has tapped out to submissions more times than the Rock so HBK is not superior in that regard.
I'd love to see The Rock manouevre his way out of a sharpshooter. Especially after Shawn has hit Sweet Chin Music out of nowhere; something he's also known for doing. Admit it, Shawn is the superior worker here. The Rock was a fantastic wrestler, but Shawn outwrestles him in every category outside of drawing - something which means little here.
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  #14  
Old 02-07-2010, 02:11 PM
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I see shawn micheals taking this one in the closing seconds with rock going for the peoples elbow and bouncing of the ropes only to meet a sweet chin music to the face for the 1 2 3
  #15  
Old 02-07-2010, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by HBK-aholic View Post
Well yeah, your disrespect of Shawn is about as obvious as my obsession.



If you'd read my post, I said that he's wrestled more than many, not everyone. Nowadays, PPV main events rarely go beyond that.



Why are the last 6 years important? Is the match taking place 6 years ago? Otherwise I'm lost.



Good for them.



But as point 2 shows, The Rock has lost more.



Does that matter? The point is The Rock will give up more - the important part with this being an iron man match.



And Shawn has beaten better wresters than the Rock in less. There's no point to this.



I'll spin this around the other way - Shawn was pinned 0 times in 45 minutes, The Rock, 4-5. And as Bret is a superior opponent to Triple H, you see this point rests in Shawns favour.



In the same way as Shawn? Not a chance. What is The Rock known for? Being 'the most electrifying man in sports entertainment', working a crowd, his promos. None of them mean anything in these matches.



Seeings as there are very few wrestlers better than Shawn, I'd love to know who you mean.






I'd love to see The Rock manouevre his way out of a sharpshooter. Especially after Shawn has hit Sweet Chin Music out of nowhere; something he's also known for doing. Admit it, Shawn is the superior worker here. The Rock was a fantastic wrestler, but Shawn outwrestles him in every category outside of drawing - something which means little here.
My dear Becca, I respect HBK but I always thought he was overrated. I didn't know it was a rule that you couldn't call anybody you respect overrated but take that want you want it to be.

You said the last six years and so wasn't important and that PPV matches don't last that long nowadays. If that is the case, what makes you think that HBK can last for 45 minutes? Since I can't bring up what happened in the last six years, I don't want you to bring up HBK's matches because they are both irrelevant as dictated by you.

I would love to see HBK manuever out of a Sharpshooter because I remember the last time he was in it, he tapped. I almost forgot when he tapped to Legacy but I guess that wouldn't count because Rhodes and DiBiase both had submissions on him. I know Benoit has made the Rock tap and I don't know about Angle but that is all I know of. Why would HBK go to a Sharpshooter after SCM? Wouldn't HBK have the smarts to just pin him then? I guess it is just HBK being his cocky old self. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rock catches him with a roll-up after a nip-up like young Orton did Monday night.

The Rock may have been one of the most electrifying wrestlers ever but he was damn good in the ring which gets overlooked. Sure he lost in big matches but so has everyone else at some point or time.
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  #16  
Old 02-07-2010, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Jerry Lawler View Post
My dear Becca, I respect HBK but I always thought he was overrated. I didn't know it was a rule that you couldn't call anybody you respect overrated but take that want you want it to be.
Not that you call him overrated, just your whole attitude towards him in every post you make about him.

Quote:
You said the last six years and so wasn't important and that PPV matches don't last that long nowadays. If that is the case, what makes you think that HBK can last for 45 minutes? Since I can't bring up what happened in the last six years,
When did I say you couldn't?? I asked why that was the cut off point for his matches?
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I don't want you to bring up HBK's matches because they are both irrelevant as dictated by you.
How are they dictated by me?! Did I book them? It's FACT that, after 45 minutes, Shawn had been pinned 0 times in his iron man match. The Rock had been pinned 4. Just because that proves my point, not yours, you can't tell me not to bring it up.

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I would love to see HBK manuever out of a Sharpshooter because I remember the last time he was in it, he tapped. I almost forgot when he tapped to Legacy but I guess that wouldn't count because Rhodes and DiBiase both had submissions on him.
Not trying to say Shawn has never tapped out, I never used that argument. But you're right - unless the Rock is going to get a buddy to use a submission as well, it means little.

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I know Benoit has made the Rock tap and I don't know about Angle but that is all I know of.
So, you think he'd tap to Benoit but not Shawn?


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Why would HBK go to a Sharpshooter after SCM? Wouldn't HBK have the smarts to just pin him then? I guess it is just HBK being his cocky old self. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rock catches him with a roll-up after a nip-up like young Orton did Monday night.
Actually, what I meant was Shawn could get 2 decisions. After pinning him for the SCM, The Rock isn't going to have the energy to put up with a sharpshooter.

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The Rock may have been one of the most electrifying wrestlers ever but he was damn good in the ring which gets overlooked. Sure he lost in big matches but so has everyone else at some point or time.
He was good. But even to suggest he's as good as/better than Shawn in the ring is ridiculous.
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  #17  
Old 02-07-2010, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by HBK-aholic View Post
Not that you call him overrated, just your whole attitude towards him in every post you make about him.



When did I say you couldn't?? I asked why that was the cut off point for his matches?


How are they dictated by me?! Did I book them? It's FACT that, after 45 minutes, Shawn had been pinned 0 times in his iron man match. The Rock had been pinned 4. Just because that proves my point, not yours, you can't tell me not to bring it up.



Not trying to say Shawn has never tapped out, I never used that argument. But you're right - unless the Rock is going to get a buddy to use a submission as well, it means little.



So, you think he'd tap to Benoit but not Shawn?




Actually, what I meant was Shawn could get 2 decisions. After pinning him for the SCM, The Rock isn't going to have the energy to put up with a sharpshooter.



He was good. But even to suggest he's as good as/better than Shawn in the ring is ridiculous.
Where did I say that the Rock was as good as Shawn in the ring? There are plenty of other wrestlers who are as good if not better than Shawn but that is irrelevant in this dicussion.

It's true that HBK was pinned 0 times and Rock 4 in 45 minutes, but the Rock scored pinfalls in 45 minutes unlike HBK so that matters as well. I don't think the Rock will tap because Shawn hasn't made better wrestlers than the Rock submit to anything. However, wrestlers less greater than the Rock have made HBK submitted. If Cena, Benoit, and two Orton lackeys can make HBK tap, I believe the Rock can make HBK tap as well in addition to the Rock using the People's Elbow and the Rock Bottom.
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Old 02-10-2010, 06:35 PM
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I knew that the Rock was better served elsewhere, or Samoa wouldn't get a single medal. I voted Rock, but it is hard to decide. Both have had one of these matches, but both times, each of the matches was quite different then the other. I think The Rock was the better talent all time especially in tournament settings. He won't win the last match because he always chokes at the end. The rock has incredible endurance and intensity to keep Shawn Michaels tired the entire time.
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