Defending Rey Mysterio: Bustin' Myths w/ Uncle Sam

[Uncle Sam]

Let's make that an honorary number eight. I think all you've done is highlight how unnecessary it has been for Rey to have promo skills to get - and stay - over. What's more, I'd say Rey's promos are neither poor nor non-existent. He's cut numerous promos over the years and they've never been in broken English or, well, bad. My only criticism would be that they can be rather formulaic; often he'd just had to say the town's name and then yell "6-1-9!" to get everyone slathering their own ankles in cum. But you could say similar things about Mick Foley.

Proof that Rey Mysterio doesn't become a gibbering, Spanish-speaking baboon when handed a microphone:



As for Punk and Bryan using their promo skills to get them over - or Guerrero and Benoit using their... veininess - that's fine. But Rey is over, so what does it matter how he did it?

Your claim that Rey - and, much as I'd hate to admit it, Sin Cara - can't draw heat is an interesting one if only because it's obviously wrong.

[midgensa]

A totally thorough and amazing look at Rey Mysterio that with it spelled out like that is simply hard to argue against.

The only knock I have ever had on Rey was the way he was BOOKED not the way he performed. He simply does not ever leave anything in the back when he comes out and has the lights on him and you really cannot ask for a lot more than that.

All the talk about him not being believable because of his size is just IWC folks wanting to bitch and moan. There is one simple fact about the world of wrestling that all of us realize and none of us ever mention for some reason ...

NOT ONE GOD DAMN BIT OF IT IS BELIEVABLE!! It is all scripted, entertainment, suspend disbelief, soap opera drama.

Arguing who is most believable as champion while thinking that a kickout from a powerbomb is more believable is RIDICULOUS.

What is "believable" and/or not is simply all in relation to each story that the writers and creative teams paint for us. And simply put ... Rey Mysterio competing with ANY wrestler in the ring has been painted as believable and should be taken as so.

He is probably the best luchadore to ever lace them up and has put other perfomers over for 20 years now. If he had not been such an injury risk the last decade (maybe due to steroids) then he would probably have a couple more legit title reigns and this discussion would seem even more crazy.

Well done Uncle Sam ... Rey Rey is a legit megastar in this business for all the reasons you pointed out.

[flyinbukta]

Now, I don't dislike Rey Mysterio, but he's not a megastar in my eyes for one reason - he's forgettable. You watch a Rey promo or a Rey match, and for me, you enjoy it but it doesn't stick in my head (with two notable feuds as exceptions). I can't name any match of Rey's that are a standout for me, nor any moment, and the two feuds I can remember are because of the other guys! (Those two being that CM Punk feud you posted a video of above, and the Eddie Guerrero one over custody of Dominic). I remember various matches of Taker's, HHH's, Shawn's, Eddie's, everyone who's become a megastar or has been a megastar in my eyes throughout my lifetime, and others, but Rey's one of the guys I don't remember. And unless something huge happens for me to remember it before he retires, it'll stay that way.

And as for that promo, the only way I can describe Rey's performance is flat. Introducing his family - flat. Talking about all the travelling (and essentially how he doesn't spend enough time with his family) - flat. Singing Happy Birthday (a song with a tune, that theoretically should force his tone to change) - flat. Then CM Punk comes out and it highlights how flat Rey's voice is. Then, Rey begs CM Punk not to terrorise his family - flat.
He made that promo unbelievable by being unable to act his part.

However, I do accept that for Rey to have been over for so many years, he must have been doing something right. I understand that he's a big star - probably the biggest "Mexican" star ever outside of Mexico itself. He just can't be classed as being on the absolute top level for me, because while I never hate his matches, I never remember them either.

[THTRobtaylor]

Here's the thing, I agree with about 90% of what you've said but I look at it from the whole career, rather than the "Booyaka" phase.

When I first started getting ECW tapes in the mid 90's, I was stunned at what Rey could do, not just for his size but as a worker in general, he was easily in the top 10 in the world even then just for sheer ability. Some guys referred to him as the "Tyrone Bouges" of wrestling. Someone so short but so good in proportion to it.

The problem with Rey was that somewhere, he chose to sign for WCW and while initially he did very well there in the cruiser division, eventually he became a "Filthy Animal" and he lost some of his aura by losing his mask.

He came back to WWF/E and at the time it was VERY exciting, he was a cruiser, we knew that but he had the potential for so much more, and one thing he has always had is the presentation. Rey presents himself, not as the "little big man" but as a big man, from the custom masks and costumes to the entrance. From the day he showed up as Spiderman to the Joker, Batman... sure it costs him or WWE money but it shows he sees himself as big as any hero out there and that is the key to his success.

WWE has fucked up the booking for most of his reign but Rey is a hero at the end of the day, there ain't too many of them left in wrestling where they aren't "forced" down our throats ala Cena or Orton or so contrived for a chant like Ryback. He is where he is almost in spite of Vince, not because. At times like all who have some "stroke" he has likely used his influence to ensure his spot, but in his position he has to, he is smaller than the roster, less mainstream and WWE themselves have painted themselves into the corner chasing the demographic he is popular with, Mexican and Latino fans love him, so why shouldn't he get some rub as a result?

Rey's strengths are also his weakness... We aren't 8... we don't want "superheroes" we want wrestlers. But think about those 8 year olds who are basically the backbone of what WWE has been about since 2002, if they don't "like" Cena? They have Rey... Older, more knowledgeable fans see a "has been" with dodgy knees and wellness violations, kids see someone "their" size beating giants. It's the same reason Hornswoggle figures...

Where Rey "lost it" for a while was when he got his family involved and tried to go edgy, but since then he has almost "atoned" by bringing the kids into his gimmick. Cloying as Rey is at times, is there a better gesture in the history of wrestling than him putting the mask on a kid's head/head bumping for that moment connecting with that one fan in a moment they'll always remember? It beat's Bret's sunglasses or Jake's finger point...

Would he have gotten the world title without Eddie's death? Yes... but he'd have gotten it FROM Eddie and that is a massive difference and a big reason why a lot of people don't accept it. As it is he is seen as the "substitute" rather than the proper icon.

A lot of his WWE run has been by the numbers, hindered by Injury and marred by controversy, but so was Edge's...so has Orton's been... Rey is perhaps better off than all of them in that (to our knowledge) he hasn't "fucked anyone over" ala Matt or shit in anyone's bags. His flaws are human ones, he took pain meds cos he is so banged up from doing the crazy shit we all loved him for back in the day when he was past doing so... For that, and the fact he is a guy I can show my nephew and say, this is why wrestling is cool gives him the pass from me, even if he isn't a "legend" in the same way a Foley, Hogan, Austin etc are (for the record neither is Edge or Orton!)

[TWJC: The Beginning]

"mysterio is small" "mysterio can't cut a promo" blah blah blah. Who gives a fuck. What's the goal of this profession? To draw out an emotional response so strong that people make a noise and cheer/boo/laugh/cry for something they KNOW is fake.

Mysterio does this well. Always has. He's an amazing babyface. He was one of the few guys who used psychology with his highspots in the mid 1990s. He credits a lot of this to Eddie Guerrero. So I guess in that aspect, Eddie is why he became world champ.

Rey is really REALLY damn good. Like, you could write an instruction manual for smaller babyfaces completely based on how Rey works.

[Lorenzo von Matterhorn]

Originally Posted by Uncle Sam

Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin, John Cena - Mysterio is on that tier. Whoever you would put in that category, I would put Mysterio up with them. CM Punk? Yep. Hulk Hogan? Uh-huh. Chris Jericho? Oh, for sure.

Before I say anything, I just want you to know that by and large, I agree with everything you've said so far in this thread. I just want you to know that, so you don't think I'm starting off on a negative foot.

To the point, I don't hold Mysterio to the same level as HBK, Stone Cold, Cena Punk, Hogan or Jericho. And it's not because of what he does in between the ropes; in that aspect he's at least on the level of Jericho and CM Punk, and better than Hogan ever was. It's because, outside the ropes, he's mid-tier at best. I consider him along the same lines as Bret Hart; one of the all time greats, but he was missing that one link that made him perfect. Hart/Mysterio can get by on the mic if they have to, but for the most part they keep their head down and steal the show in the ring.

You may not attribute as much importance to promo work as I do, but that's what it's ultimately going to come down to. I have no issue with you including him among the all-time greats in your own, totally subjective opinion, so long as I can reject the notion in my own. I've always been a promo guy. I've always LOVED Rey Mysterio too, because he's got so much else going for his character that he can still tell a great story without cutting a 15-minute promo.

Rey certainly isn't insignificant - if nothing else, he's been a lynchpin for the WWE for the last decade - but he definitely doesn't have the same historical significance as many of the names I've mentioned. What makes Rey a great wrestler is that, well, he's a great wrestler. He's been nigh on infallible for some time. He's the world's greatest utility man. Great matches from all comers, regardless of where they are on the card, what type of match it is or what state Rey's knee is in.

This is what makes Rey awesome to me. If I were to start a wrestling promotion, Rey is the kind of guy I'd want ten of. Consistently good for a very, very long time. It's like this: would you rather have a basketball player that puts up 30 points a game for 10 years but rarely makes it all the way, or a guy that's really inconsistent but shows up every once in awhile in key moments? You could make a case either way, but the point is, Mysterio is just as valuable to the long-term product as a John Cena type character.

Oh, and don't confuse me calling Rey Mysterio a great professional wrestler with me saying he isn't a great "sports entertainer" or "superstar" or whatever redundant term you have in mind. I don't make any such distinction; I don't feel the need to make any excuses for Rey.

Agreed. The distinction is stupid, and I lose respect for indy guys that try and draw a cheap pop for saying "I'm a WRESTLER, not a Superstar", or some bullshit like that. Wrestlers are all, at the end of the day, entertainers. Pro wrestling is the perfect combo of sport and entertainment - even though sports are, technically, a form of entertainment - so I'd love it if "entertainment" stopped being a dirty word around the water cooler.

Myth #1: Rey Mysterio was never that good to begin with

Fuck right off.

Fuck right off indeed. He's not exactly at the peak of his physical condition these days, but even if you're not a Mysterio fan saying he was never good just points out how little you actually know about wrestling. I used to be a WCW guy in the 90's, when I was first learning about wrestling and getting into it, and Rey (along with Eddie) were the reasons I kept going over to my neighbors house to watch Nitro and various PPV's.

Myth #2: Rey Mysterio would have never won the world title if Eddie Guerrero hadn't died

Like you said, this is a really stupid point to even be arguing. Maybe he would never have won a World Title. Maybe he still would have won the Royal Rumble that year. I mean, it was smart of WWE to take advantage of the hype after Eddie's death, and to make Rey Rey the new Latino face of the WWE. Him winning the title was an awesome moment for sure, and whether or not it hinged on his best friend's death makes no real difference to me. Even if he didn't win the title, I'd still consider him to be great. Ricky Steamboat never won a World Title with WWF; doesn't mean he isn't worthy of the Hall of Fame.

Myth #3: Rey Mysterio has been too dominant/"as bad as Cena"

At this point in his career, Rey should be going over the vast majority of guys within 50 pounds and 6 inches of his size. He's a veteran. A lot of people take that for granted when they say things like "so and so needed that win more" or "Rey didn't NEED that win". Realistically speaking, Mysterio has pretty much seen it all, and beaten every challenge in his path. The only way he should really be losing these days is if a heel cheats, he gets out-numbered, somebody is 2x his size or more, or he's facing another veteran. That being said, there hasn't actually been a period where Mysterio was "dominant". Whenever he makes it to the very top, he kind of gets tossed around like a rag doll. True, he wins most of his matches. I still dont' see that as a problem. Never have with Cena either.

Myth #4: Rey Mysterio has got worse as he's got older

Worse is a subjective term. The last few years of his career haven't really been all that impressive, but he's done a bunch for other people when he's healthy. Is he as athletic as he once was? No, don't be silly. He's getting to be an old man, and he's had to adjust his style accordingly. Don't be mistaken, putting him in a tag team wasn't just for Sin Cara's benefit.

Myth #5: Rey Mysterio is too small to be a believable threat/world champion

Here's a question, at what size do you become "big enough" to be a world champ? CM Punk's been WWE CHampion for over 400 days, and he's just under 220. HBK is actually shorter than Punk, with Jericho even shorter. There's a 7-inch difference between Mysterio and Chris Jericho. There's a 12-inch difference between Jericho and Big Show. Is Rey Mysterio short? Yes. Obviously he's smaller than your average World Champion. Is it harder for him to be booked in ways that make him seem a legitimate World CHampion? Yes. Did WWE drop the ball with his World Title runs and forever make sure people thought he was "too small"? Probably. Smart logic dictates that you don't over-play the David vs. Goliath match-up; instead they did it every week of every month during his reigns.

Myth #6: Rey Mysterio is always booked as an underdog

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhh. And more to the point, that's not actually true. he's been in tag team action for months, and I haven't thought of him as an underdog. He's fought CM PUnk, Chris Jericho, Eddie, etc. and I didn't think of him as an underdog. Like I just got done saying, WWE over-booked the David vs. Goliath angle during his hot period near the top of Smackdown, and that's what people remember.

Myth #7: Rey Mysterio has politicked to stay at the top

Anything we think we know about the goings on in pro wrestling is at best, 2nd hand info. In most cases, it's probably 4th or 5th hand info, coming down from a friend of a friend of a friend, leaked on social network, and eventually making its way to a dirt sheet. That being said, anybody who's ever made it in wrestling has done at least a little bit of positioning. Anybody whose name you know from something famous probably has. Even Jesus showed up in the Roman capital and basically said "fuck the ROman empire".

Here's the bottom line, after I've said all of that: I really like Rey Mysterio, but I don't consider him in the "god tier" of professional wrestlers. That's reserved for people I feel have the total package and have rend the industry totally different by their impact. There's only a handful of people I even feel are in that league. Shawn Michaels, "Stone Cold" Steven Austin, John Cena, the Rock, Triple H, Ric Flair, "Macho Man" Randy Savage. Probably Undertaker. Had Eddie Guerrero had another 5 years in the business, I would have liked to consider him in that rank as well. He had the total package, in my opinion.

I put Rey Mysterio on what I refer to as "tier 1". He's not "god tier", but he's still among the absolute elite. The "tier 1" talent will go down in the Hall of Fame, always be remembered, but they're missing...something...that keeps them from being immortalized as the "greatest of all time". CM Punk is missing time. Something that will only come with, quite obviously, time. Sting is missing having competed for the biggest wrestling promotion in the history of America. Rey Mysterio is missing epic promo skills that compliment his in-ring storytelling with literal, audible story-telling.

All that is totally subjective, and wholly my own opinion. I'm not trying to take ANYTHING away from Rey, or question your love of him. I'm just putting out what I think of Rey Rey, and where I think he falls in line with the rest of pro wrestling history. Thoughts?