Hogan Region, Toronto Subregion, First Round: (14) Stan Hansen vs. (19) Big Daddy

[nightmare]

Why? He still only was big in one area & that area ultimately is down on the hierarchical list behind N.A. & Japan. Hansen blasted people in those two big markets and also a huge draw in Puerto Rico.

Big deal in one place does not outweigh big deal everywhere you went.

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Originally Posted by enviousdominous

That's weird, I know of two occasions where Big Daddy lost clean to Kendo Nagasaki, and correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that those are the only two matches they ever fought. Albeit; Kendo snuck those wins after having his ass kicked for 90% of the match, but it didn't take much beyond knocking Big Daddy onto his back to score a pinfall.

It's called hyperbole. People say Hogan never lost or that Warrior never lost or Goldberg etc... but they did, of course they did. The fact remains Big Daddy won the vast majority of his matches, and the only losses you present here are versus a cunning, secretive and slippery heel rather than a loud southern brawler.

Originally Posted by enviousdominous

[b]If you put Big Daddy in the ring with Stan Hansen, Stan would probably go off script pretty damn quickly and split Daddy's forehead open with his fist. Meanwhile Big Daddy would be flopping around, attempting something that vaguely looks like offense until his own lack of coordination caused him to fall off of his feet.

So what you're saying is that Hansen would go into business for himself and likely get black balled from the rest of the tournament for doing so? Huh, that seems strange, I know Hansen was reckless and frankly out of his mind, but unlike say his long term comrade in arms Bruiser Brody, I don't recall Hansen quite abusing someone in this same way. He always seemed fairly game to do business.

Originally Posted by nightmare

Why? He still only was big in one area & that area ultimately is down on the hierarchical list behind N.A. & Japan. Hansen blasted people in those two big markets and also a huge draw in Puerto Rico.

Big deal in one place does not outweigh big deal everywhere you went.

Stan Hansen isn't exactly what I'd call a big deal in the United States. His biggest business was versus Bruno and that's about it. Bruno was the key to that. The fans didn't want to see Hansen get his ass handed to him, they wanted to see Bruno hand him his ass. There's a difference. He was AWA World Champion well after their peak and was United States Champ in WCW in the early 90s, something Jim Duggan also accomplished. He's done a lot, no doubt, but so has say, Matt Hardy. Doesn't mean he should go over.

Hansen wasn't this revered draw that most portray him as. He was an excellent villain who would play his role perfectly only to eventually be defeated by the conquering hero. Bruno did it, the AJPW natives did it, Hogan did it and even Luger did it in reclaiming his United States title. Big Daddy would do it too. He was a sizable draw, but to compare the level of attraction he could draw versus the business that Daddy could bring is, well it's laughable frankly.

[enviousdominous]

Originally Posted by FunKay the Lesser

It's called hyperbole. People say Hogan never lost or that Warrior never lost or Goldberg etc... but they did, of course they did. The fact remains Big Daddy won the vast majority of his matches, and the only losses you present here are versus a cunning, secretive and slippery heel rather than a loud southern brawler.

I'm also a huge Kendo Nagasaki fan, but yeah, he's worlds apart from Stan Hansen. Mainly because Stan would have more than likely annihilated Kendo if they ever fought. I don't see Big Daddy being able to use his usual ring-work to defend himself against Stan Hansen.

I get that Big Daddy had the celebrity status of any of the names you've mentioned, but he was never tested like they were. Big Daddy was featured in the Sunday comics, so of course you'd cheer for him when he had that negative five-star match against Giant Haytacks. Stan Hansen left lasting impressions on the fans when he'd dominate big names like Giant Baba and Vader.

Originally Posted by FunKay the Lesser

So what you're saying is that Hansen would go into business for himself and likely get black balled from the rest of the tournament for doing so? Huh, that seems strange, I know Hansen was reckless and frankly out of his mind, but unlike say his long term comrade in arms Bruiser Brody, I don't recall Hansen quite abusing someone in this same way. He always seemed fairly game to do business.

I know that I'd be fooling myself if I pretended like it was my place to lecture you, so rest assured I'm just making the following point so that you're aware of what I'm aware of. Do you remember when Stan and Vader has a small miscommunication prior to their most memorable match in Japan? Something like Stan was wildly swinging his bull rope around and the bell on the end of it thwacked Vader in the head, inspiring Vader to potato Stan for which Stan had no idea of why Vader did that? Vader almost lost an eye during that match.

Stan had a chip on his shoulder, and prior to his matches he would put himself into a mental state where you had to be a tough son of a bitch or a prowrestling mainstay to be able to beat him.

I'll give you that Stan swallowed his pride for his match with Hogan, but I'm going to need more convincing to look at Big Daddy as another version of Hogan. Hogan is often mocked for having a leg drop as a finisher, if Big Daddy attempted a leg drop he would never walk again.

Originally Posted by FunKay the Lesser

Stan Hansen isn't exactly what I'd call a big deal in the United States. His biggest business was versus Bruno and that's about it. Bruno was the key to that. The fans didn't want to see Hansen get his ass handed to him, they wanted to see Bruno hand him his ass. There's a difference. He was AWA World Champion well after their peak and was United States Champ in WCW in the early 90s, something Jim Duggan also accomplished. He's done a lot, no doubt, but so has say, Matt Hardy. Doesn't mean he should go over.

I completely agree that being a top heel shouldn't be a free ticket to the second round, but we're talking about Big Daddy here. Stan Hansen had a match with Bruno Sammartino that everyone from that era remembers, and Big Daddy had a match with Big Bruno Elrington that nobody remembers.

I feel like you're trying to convince me that the most popular wrestler in an obscure indy league deserves to beat one of the most popular wresters in the world. World of Sport was at best a carnival side show. Stan Hansen spent his career mixing it up with the greatest from around the world, and Big Daddy wouldn't have lasted a minute anywhere else.

Originally Posted by FunKay the Lesser

Hansen wasn't this revered draw that most portray him as. He was an excellent villain who would play his role perfectly only to eventually be defeated by the conquering hero. Bruno did it, the AJPW natives did it, Hogan did it and even Luger did it in reclaiming his United States title. Big Daddy would do it too. He was a sizable draw, but to compare the level of attraction he could draw versus the business that Daddy could bring is, well it's laughable frankly.

You want to talk laughable? Imagine Big Daddy in a match with or against any of the people you've cited as examples of why Stan would lose because he's the bad guy. I honestly think it would look pretty fucking funny to see Hogan, Bruno or Luger torture themselves trying to make a match against or teamed up with Big Daddy look even slightly decent. On the flip side, Stan would easily destroy any of Big Daddy's usual mix of foils.

[justtxyank]

The ignorance that surrounds Stan Hansen is stunning really.

Let me debunk some Hansen myths.

1) Safety:
-For someone the internet is so convinced was unsafe, basically every promoter in the world put their most important people in the ring with him. AWA put Rick Martel in there, WCW put Luger, AJPW put all of the Pillars in there with him PLUS Baba, etc., WWF put Bruno in there (the one that got hurt IN THE 70s!), the list goes on. When Terry Gordy bowed out of a HUGE match with Hogan in Japan, Hogan, notorious for wanting to work pillow soft, accepted Hansen as the fill in. He worked stiff yes, but he was a smart worker as well and the safety thing is totally made up.

2) Being a draw outside of the United States:
-I know it's hard for people to believe this now, but there was a time when being a draw in the United States didn't pay what it paid to be big in Japan. Brody and Hansen were two of the highest paid wrestlers in the WORLD, outclassing basically every but Hogan through the 80s. Hansen was extremely loyal to Baba for taking care of him and Brody. He wouldn't do anything to mess that up, but as a draw, he did HUGE money for Japan.
-Hansen wasn't just a gaijin heel in All Japan, he was top of the card for a decade. He wasn't some "monster of the week" for someone to slay, he dominated. He carried the Triple Crown, beat the snot out of the Three Pillars and spent years as the guy those people couldn't conquer. He was for AJPW what Taker was to WWF. The biggest, meanest, baddest dog in the yard that was involved at the top of every program.
-Hansen didn't go US full time because at the top of AJPW he was paid more than any single promoter could pay in the United States. He was making more than the vast majority of guys in the states! It was a different era. He would accept runs in the states as long as they didn't jeopardize his ability to be on the big cards in Japan and when ever he did come to the States he was rightly treated as a big freaking deal. The only reason he didn't work a program in WWF, say to job to Hogan, is Vince wanted control of schedules. Was never going to make sense for Hansen to take a paycut, walk away from Japan and go job to Hogan.

Stan Hansen was a monster. He was a TREMENDOUS worker who worked marathons with guys like Kawada, Misawa, Kobashi and could look like the better guy. He had insane stamina for a man his size, working deep at a crazy pace. He could also work insane sprints. The level of violence he could demonstrate in the ring and the speed and fury he could keep up was unprecedented.

Hansen was on billboards and had mainstream advertisements in Japan. The dude is an absolute legend, was beloved by the audiences and got over everywhere he went. He knocks the poop out of Big Daddy and should be a favorite in the tournament if people would go fully immerse themselves in his history.

[nightmare]

If this was like match 3 or something equal to close a show/end a feud, then its Easy Easy.

It isnt & the southern heel would whip the visiting foreigner in a first meeting. Much like the Lawler/Joe fight would go & for similar reasons. Daddy has nothing to stop Hansen & Hansen hates glitter.

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Originally Posted by enviousdominous

I get that Big Daddy had the celebrity status of any of the names you've mentioned, but he was never tested like they were. Big Daddy was featured in the Sunday comics, so of course you'd cheer for him when he had that negative five-star match against Giant Haytacks. Stan Hansen left lasting impressions on the fans when he'd dominate big names like Giant Baba and Vader.

Match quality isn't the point, or more appropriately not the only point. Ability to draw, relevance to this industry, historical importance. All are fields where Daddy's legacy is greater than Hansen's.

Originally Posted by enviousdominous

I know that I'd be fooling myself if I pretended like it was my place to lecture you, so rest assured I'm just making the following point so that you're aware of what I'm aware of. Do you remember when Stan and Vader has a small miscommunication prior to their most memorable match in Japan? Something like Stan was wildly swinging his bull rope around and the bell on the end of it thwacked Vader in the head, inspiring Vader to potato Stan for which Stan had no idea of why Vader did that? Vader almost lost an eye during that match.

Stan had a chip on his shoulder, and prior to his matches he would put himself into a mental state where you had to be a tough son of a bitch or a prowrestling mainstay to be able to beat him.

I'll give you that Stan swallowed his pride for his match with Hogan, but I'm going to need more convincing to look at Big Daddy as another version of Hogan. Hogan is often mocked for having a leg drop as a finisher, if Big Daddy attempted a leg drop he would never walk again.

Daddy isn't going to play the Vader game though, is he? Vader's a tough rough and ready type much like Hansen himself. Daddy's, by your own account, a softy. He'd get the hell out of dodge, but that's all beside the point. This isn't a legit fight. It's a work. Hansen hitting Vader was an accident. If he hits Daddy by accident, the match will get thrown out. Hansen might go into business for himself or what have you afterward, but he'd be DQ'd, thrown out.

Originally Posted by enviousdominous

I completely agree that being a top heel shouldn't be a free ticket to the second round, but we're talking about Big Daddy here. Stan Hansen had a match with Bruno Sammartino that everyone from that era remembers, and Big Daddy had a match with Big Bruno Elrington that nobody remembers.

Of course I get your point, I don't think anyone is arguing that Stan Hansen is a much superior in-ring talent. The point is he's not the big star in the same way Daddy was. Daddy's popularity sparked the biggest wrestling boom the UK (probably the fourth biggest wrestling market outside of North America, Mexico and Japan) has ever seen and that has never been replicated after his peak. Hansen was a big deal and a legendary villain but he never supported the weight of an industry like Daddy did.

Originally Posted by enviousdominous

I feel like you're trying to convince me that the most popular wrestler in an obscure indy league deserves to beat one of the most popular wresters in the world. World of Sport was at best a carnival side show. Stan Hansen spent his career mixing it up with the greatest from around the world, and Big Daddy wouldn't have lasted a minute anywhere else.

See this is simply not true. World of Sport was a mainstream product. It was designed for the masses as a convenient way of showcasing all sports, and the wrestling aspect was the most viewed and best remembered aspect of it (aside from, darts maybe). There was nothing indy about it. Carny perhaps, but the fact it was funded by the biggest advertisement supported broadcaster in the UK means there isn't anything indy about it.

Originally Posted by enviousdominous

You want to talk laughable? Imagine Big Daddy in a match with or against any of the people you've cited as examples of why Stan would lose because he's the bad guy. I honestly think it would look pretty fucking funny to see Hogan, Bruno or Luger torture themselves trying to make a match against or teamed up with Big Daddy look even slightly decent. On the flip side, Stan would easily destroy any of Big Daddy's usual mix of foils.

This isn't a straight fight. I get it, Hansen's the toughest, he's the great cowboy, all that. Daddy's a clown, a jolly giant. But it's a work. The whole point is to bump and make your opponent look good. Hansen might get annoyed because Daddy isn't his caliber of opponent, but if he takes it too far and starts potatoing him, he'll get DQ'd. This isn't Japan or the Deep South, if Hansen hits him with a bullrope, he gets DQ'd. If he spits tobacco at him, that's no different to the mist(s), he'll get DQ'd. Hell, if he uses closed fists for a prolonged period, he gets DQ'd.

Daddy was a mega-star in his market, Hansen was a big deal, but nothing is going to collapse without him at the helm.