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  #21  
Old 09-04-2015, 09:22 AM
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Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and as I've said before, I can certainly see the other side of this thing. I'm not so hard headed that I can't. Having said that, though, I still think that Bret would've been fine going into WM 12 for 2 reasons. 1) Bret was still the Champion. He would've had at least a month or more of Raws to help build himself for the Iron Man Match. Especially being the Champion and main focus of the company. 2) The fact that Nash was a 7 foot monster. Bret is considered by many to be one of the smaller champions in WWE history. So having Nash essentially have Bret beaten before 'Taker interfered wouldn't have been out of the scope of reality. WWE was definitely about big guys back then.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it as being that detrimental to Bret's character. I definitely don't see it as something that he wouldn't have been able to come back from before WM 12. It just wouldn't have hurt him. On the other hand, it would've added so much more to the 'Taker/Nash match.
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  #22  
Old 09-04-2015, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by I Am Phenom View Post
1) Bret was still the Champion. He would've had at least a month or more of Raws to help build himself for the Iron Man Match. Especially being the Champion and main focus of the company.
You're thinking of Raw as it is now rather than back then. Someone like Bret might be on Raw once a month for an interview and once for a match back then and that's it. Rarely he'd have matches and when he would they wouldn't be against someone of the same caliber as Diesel so he would have no way of getting back his heat. To give you an idea of what the show was like than here's the main events of every Raw after that IYH and who of HBK, Bret, Diesel and Undertaker appeared in matches.

Feb 19th: Undertaker v Tatanka
Feb 27th: Diesel v Bob Holly
Mar 4th: Bret v Triple H & HBK vs 123 Kid
Mar 11th: Undertaker & Yoko v Owen & Bulldog
Mar 18th: Diesel v Barry Horowitz & Bret v Tatanka
Mar 25th: HBK v Leif Cassidy

So Bret only has two on screen matches following the match with Diesel and they're against a very green Triple H and Tatanka when he was past his best run. Not exactly enough to get him his heat back after being all but beaten by Diesel.

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Originally Posted by I Am Phenom View Post
2) The fact that Nash was a 7 foot monster. Bret is considered by many to be one of the smaller champions in WWE history. So having Nash essentially have Bret beaten before 'Taker interfered wouldn't have been out of the scope of reality. WWE was definitely about big guys back then.
Bret's match was more important to build than Nash's, that's the be all and end all of it. Bret and Shawn were two bigger stars than Nash and Undertaker at the time and their match was the main event. Nash should just be thanking Bret for Bret not wanting to beat him clean.
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  #23  
Old 09-04-2015, 10:43 AM
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Damn, I just completely realized that I totally posted the wrong video. This is the video that I ment to post:


Still think Bret wasn't selfish?

Also, to the guy that posted above me, I don't know why you felt the need to post here what you posted on YouTube. So if you need a response, go to what I said to you on YouTube.
So basically, you're OK with Taker and Diesel being selfish and looking out for their match, but not Bret?

Makes sense. Diesel is/was/always will be an idiot, and Taker was significantly less experienced than Bret at the time.

LMAO at internet fans hating Bret this much. It's usually people who weren't even old enough to be fans when Bret was wrestling, too. So weird.

Look.....nobody gives a shit about the Taker-Nash match. Not now, not then. And they could've made them both look like the 2 greatest of all time going into it, and still nobody would care. Neither one of them had the goods to deliver. It is what it is.

SMH at wanting to knock the Hart-Michaels build down(which was for the TITLE, and a guaranteed classic match) for a secondary match. No Diesel....NO YOU FUCKING WEREN'T THE "CO-MAIN-EVENT".

Sick of these dumbasses saying dumb shit 20 years later, and gullible ass fans actually riding for them. Sit down Nash. Please. Just sit down. You're lucky Bret didn't beat you clean with the sharpshooter, which being that he was the top star in the company and the champion, heading into a huge WM title match.....he probably should have.

Last edited by LBGetBack : 09-04-2015 at 10:51 AM.
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  #24  
Old 09-04-2015, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by LBGetBack View Post
So basically, you're OK with Taker and Diesel being selfish and looking out for their match, but not Bret?

Makes sense. Diesel is/was/always will be an idiot, and Taker was significantly less experienced than Bret at the time.

LMAO at internet fans hating Bret this much. It's usually people who weren't even old enough to be fans when Bret was wrestling, too. So weird.

Look.....nobody gives a shit about the Taker-Nash match. Not now, not then. And they could've made them both look like the 2 greatest of all time going into it, and still nobody would care. Neither one of them had the goods to deliver. It is what it is.

SMH at wanting to knock the Hart-Michaels build down(which was for the TITLE, and a guaranteed classic match) for a secondary match. No Diesel....NO YOU FUCKING WEREN'T THE "CO-MAIN-EVENT".

Sick of these dumbasses saying dumb shit 20 years later, and gullible ass fans actually riding for them. Sit down Nash. Please. Just sit down. You're lucky Bret didn't beat you clean with the sharpshooter, which being that he was the top star in the company and the champion, heading into a huge WM title match.....he probably should have.
This is one of the most moronic things I have ever read.

First off, its the internet fans that love Bret and overrate him to hell and gone. When in actuality he was one of the worst draws as Champion in WWE history. Second of all, who the hell are you to say Nash should sit down and that he doesn't know what he was talking about? Let me guess, you were actually in the WWE at the time and know exactly what was going down. What's really funny here is fans such as yourself coming to the defense of one of the biggest cry babies in wrestling history. That Iron Man Match, that you call an instant classic, was one of the most boring and overrated matches in history. An hour of rest hold after rest hold after rest hold, draw, super kick, the end. Wow, what a clinic. Literally almost every Iron Man Match after that one was better. I don't get how you or anyone else can say Nash is lucky that Bret didn't beat him clean. Like Nash was a nobody back then. He had just come off of the LONGEST TITLE REIGN OF THE 90's and he was just as over as HBK and Hart. So no, Bret wasn't going to beat him clean even if he wanted to.

Again, him taking that finish wouldn't have hurt him that bad. It just wouldn't have. Also, whether or not he had a match on every Raw from then till Mania, I'm sure he appeared. Having a match isn't the only way to gain momentum. Especially with all the vignettes and such that HBK and Bret had. Give me a break at saying he didn't have time to bounce back. (to the guy before you) Bret would've been fine if he took that powerbomb. I'm more surprised that the Bret faithful think so little of him to think that it would've hurt him so bad. Like he wouldn't have been able to recover at all. That's what you're all essentially saying.

And yes, I think Hart should've taken the powerbomb to help Nask and 'Taker's match. Their match could've benefited from that extra added element. Definitely would've made their match mean more because they definitely didn't have the vignettes or time that HBK and Hart had.
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Thus why I'd let a girl put on a strap-on and get in there. You only live once.

Last edited by SSJPhenom : 09-04-2015 at 07:31 PM.
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  #25  
Old 09-04-2015, 10:15 PM
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Yes but no more than anyone else in the same position. I just watched that clip a few days ago myself and agree that Bret should have taken the powerbomb. It would have made no difference towards him but helped the other storyline. But he wasn't the first top talent to do that. Bret also worked with just about anyone which is something most top talent wouldn't do - he literally has had matches with everyone. You can't be that selfish and still do that. Hogan wouldn't because what if they made him look bad? I do think there were times when he was selfish but no more than anyone else in that spot would and I think less than a lot of guys.
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  #26  
Old 09-05-2015, 06:20 AM
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Actually the more I think about it, the more I think it is laughable that Bret even agreed to the situation. Looking back on it, you're right, the powerbomb wouldn't have made him look any worse because he already looked like shit to begin with. The story told in that match by them and the announcers was that Diesel kicked Bret's ass and would've won if not for Taker. So I guess Bret was already buried anyway so the powerbomb wouldn't have changed things. Why Bret agreed to the finish is beyond me. He should've demanded that either he went over cleanly that match or that Taker would interfere after Bret was in control. Why he allowed himself as champion to look like crap for two PPVs in a row before one of the biggest matches in Mania history is beyond me.
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  #27  
Old 09-05-2015, 09:32 AM
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The biggest part is that Nash was "up in the air" on his contract to begin with, that's what Kev doesn't mention... Maybe if Bret knew he was locked in and sticking around it might have been different.

From his perspective, with Nash "umming and ahhing", Razor defo going and Shawn in line for the push - it could have been a power play from Nash and Shawn... sure Bret could be a little "paranoid" but there was a real chance Nash was saying to Vince... "If I say, I am the top guy, me Shawn & Taker...then Bret..."

Taker was at the beginning of his major push as a main eventer - until this point he was "monster of the quarter/month" and only the injury from Mabel made them rethink... Nash was losing to him at Mania stay or go, so from his perspective this was his BIG moment... and Bret was screwing with it, so his comments there make a lot of sense too.

The person who was a dick was Vince, he knew he was pitting guys against each other back then and enjoyed it... he should have told Kevin, "If you're going, go... but you do what is required on the way out" and told Taker, Bret and Shawn "I run the show...none of you do..."
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  #28  
Old 09-05-2015, 02:47 PM
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This is one of the most moronic things I have ever read.

First off, its the internet fans that love Bret and overrate him to hell and gone. When in actuality he was one of the worst draws as Champion in WWE history. Second of all, who the hell are you to say Nash should sit down and that he doesn't know what he was talking about? Let me guess, you were actually in the WWE at the time and know exactly what was going down. What's really funny here is fans such as yourself coming to the defense of one of the biggest cry babies in wrestling history. That Iron Man Match, that you call an instant classic, was one of the most boring and overrated matches in history. An hour of rest hold after rest hold after rest hold, draw, super kick, the end. Wow, what a clinic. Literally almost every Iron Man Match after that one was better. I don't get how you or anyone else can say Nash is lucky that Bret didn't beat him clean. Like Nash was a nobody back then. He had just come off of the LONGEST TITLE REIGN OF THE 90's and he was just as over as HBK and Hart. So no, Bret wasn't going to beat him clean even if he wanted to.

Again, him taking that finish wouldn't have hurt him that bad. It just wouldn't have. Also, whether or not he had a match on every Raw from then till Mania, I'm sure he appeared. Having a match isn't the only way to gain momentum. Especially with all the vignettes and such that HBK and Bret had. Give me a break at saying he didn't have time to bounce back. (to the guy before you) Bret would've been fine if he took that powerbomb. I'm more surprised that the Bret faithful think so little of him to think that it would've hurt him so bad. Like he wouldn't have been able to recover at all. That's what you're all essentially saying.

And yes, I think Hart should've taken the powerbomb to help Nask and 'Taker's match. Their match could've benefited from that extra added element. Definitely would've made their match mean more because they definitely didn't have the vignettes or time that HBK and Hart had.

The guy who is advocating devaluing the wrestlemania MAIN EVENT to build up an undercard match is calling things moronic. HILARIOUS. Hey, why didn't Hogan or Warrior eat a pin from Mr. Perfect or the Genius at Saturday Night's Main Event in 1990 before Mania 6? It would've put Mr. Perfect over and built up his match with Brutus the Barber Beefcake! SMH. So moronic.

LOL at your internet fan rant! LOLOLOLOL. Nah. The fans liked Bret. Spend 9.99 and order WWE Network and watch an old match(since you're popping off about things you're too young to have experienced) and listen to the crowd. Everyone liked him in the early-mid 90's. "One of the worst draws".....you know who was worse? Nash. That's who. FACTS. Regardless, the entire business was down then and that had nothing to do with Bret Hart. You should learn more about wrestling history before getting all fired up to make bad points.

Bret-HBK is a well-regarded, historic match. Deal with it. We're not talking about if you personally like it. This is about it's place in history, which is already set in stone. It was a huge match. Taker-Nash......LMAO. Nobody ever really cared much......just an undercard match. Go dissect that match with your fury. You don't devalue the main event of wrestlemania in order to build an undercard match. Moronic post. They booked Bret poorly enough as it is in late '95-early '96.....had him looking like an old man in his training vignettes, had Diesel whup him and get screwed by Taker, commentators taking shots at him talking about he got lucky. SMH. And you're crying because you wanted him to look even WORSE? To build up an undercard match featuring a guy who was on his way out of the company? WOW.

Last edited by LBGetBack : 09-05-2015 at 02:53 PM.
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  #29  
Old 09-05-2015, 03:51 PM
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Looks like I'm going to have to do this.

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Originally Posted by LBGetBack View Post
The guy who is advocating devaluing the wrestlemania MAIN EVENT to build up an undercard match is calling things moronic. HILARIOUS. Hey, why didn't Hogan or Warrior eat a pin from Mr. Prefect or the Genius at Saturday Night's Main Event in 1990 before Mania 6? It would've put Mr. Perfect over and built up his match with Brutus the Barber Beefcake! SMH. So moronic.
Now You're being an idiot. Neither Mr. Perfect nor Brutus the Barber Beefcake were former champions or even title contenders. There's not even a comparison there.

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LOL at your internet fan rant! LOLOLOLOL. Nah. The fans liked Bret. Spend 9.99 and order WWE Network and watch an old match(since you're popping off about things you're too young to have experienced) and listen to the crowd. Everyone liked him in the early-mid 90's. "One of the worst draws".....you know who was worse? Nash. That's who. FACTS. Regardless, the entire business was down then and that had nothing to do with Bret Hart. You should learn more about wrestling history before getting all fired up to make bad points.
My internet fan rant is completely correct because that's exactly what you're doing. Lol at me being to young to know what I'm talking about. I've been watching wrestling my whole life but we won't get into that. I know you had to come up with some other way to take a shot at me because you couldn't do it with this topic, that's OK. Yep you're right, the fans did like Bret, and HBK, and Nash, and 'Taker. I watched back then and even I liked Bret, however, do you know what I did when Hall and Nash went to WCW? I started watching them. Just like most other fans at that time. So if Nash was such a bad draw, why'd they keep the title on him so long and why did so many fans follow him to WCW? Also, if Bret was so liked, how in the hell did a heel Stone Cold Steve Austin get over as a face on a face Bret Hart? I know plenty about wrestling history and my points weren't bad just because you don't agree with them. My points were actually fairly accurate.

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Bret-HBK is a well-regarded, historic match. Deal with it. We're not talking about if you personally like it. This is about it's place in history, which is already set in stone. It was a huge match. Taker-Nash......LMAO. Nobody ever really cared much......just an undercard match. Go dissect that match with your fury. You don't devalue the main event of wrestlemania in order to build an undercard match. Moronic post. They booked Bret poorly enough as it is in late '95-early '96.....had him looking like an old man in his training vignettes, had Diesel whup him and get screwed by Taker, commentators taking shots at him talking about he got lucky. SMH. And you're crying because you wanted him to look even WORSE? To build up an undercard match featuring a guy who was on his way out of the company? WOW.
Who is Hart/HBK at WM 12 well regarded by? Bret fans and the WWE? Well of course it'll be well regarded by them, however, it just wasn't an exciting or good match. Rock/HHH had a much better Iron Man Match. So did Angle/Lesnar and I could go on and on. Hell, HBK/Angle had a far better Iron Man Match. I remember watching WM 12 and I was bored to death my the Iron Man Match. By the end of that thing, I didn't care who won. That wasn't the case with the others.

Let me tell you who Bret is. Bret is the type of guy that thinks that he didn't do anything to deserve what happened in Montreal. He's the type of person that instead of evolving his character and moving on into the Attitude Era, he would sit backstage and whine and cry about the product and how it should be revolved around him. A lot of people credit Bret Hart with putting Austin over, however, and Austin has said this on his podcast, him being put over and becoming as popular as he did was not Bret's intention. Bret was supposed to go about beating Austin and Austin was just supposed to move on as a heel. Thank god the fans actually have a brain though.
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Last edited by SSJPhenom : 09-05-2015 at 03:54 PM.
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  #30  
Old 09-05-2015, 07:10 PM
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Was Bret selfish? To a degree, but christ tell me a main eventer wrestler who isn't?

Bret was highly generous also, Sean Waltman talks about the match the two had on RAW in 1994 and says Bret went out of his way to make 123 kid look kid, nearly going so far as to turn heel during the course of the match - at a time when he was the no.1 babyface in the company - to give Waltman a huge break.

As for Austin/Bret, Bret wanted to make SCSA look as good as possible, Bret and Austin have both said that when Vince wanted Austin to pass out in the sharpshooter, they weren't sold on the idea until Bret suggested that Austin blade, which would make further cement Austin's rep as a tough SOB. Bret was looking out for Austin, he knew he was going over at WM13 so he could have just went along with the finish Vince wanted but he knew it wouldn't do much for Steve. Is that the act of a selfish person?

People are genuinely taking the word of Kevin Nash? who has contradicted himself so many times it's ridiculous.
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