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  #31  
Old 01-19-2016, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Bad News BK View Post
Now, on the suplex point, yes it does get repetative. So was most of Hogans matches. And Flairs. But the formula worked even though it was mostly the same deal. Lesnars deal is he suplexes his opponents to death with a move he has perfected. (also, Lesnar isn't the only one to abuse the German suplex. I remember some matches with both Angle and Benoit where they'd hit ridiculous amounts of German Suplexes. Not just one guy on the roster doing it, but two simultaneously).
Angle and Benoit...have you watched how they begin their matches? Just watch their match from Royal Rumble 2003, or them teaming up against Edge and Rey Mysterio from No Mercy 2002. One of the greatest matches ever. I have no problem with someone doing the German suplex 12 times in a particular match, as long as they do it skillfully, also in sets of 3-5 as did Angle and Benoit.

What Brock did at Battleground or has been doing lately, is more like a kid playing the WWE video game from 2004/2005 and doing the same damn move(often a finisher like F5) over and over and over again. That's juvenile, silly, and downright retarded. And that's how Lesnar appears to me lately.

And by no means do I doubt Lesnar's credentials, his work ethic, merits, and ability as a wrestler. I like the guy. But, as I've already stated throughout this thread, if he's going to be booked like this, I have no interest in him whatsoever. I'll happily rewatch his match with Angle from WM19, Summerslam or others, 10 times.
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  #32  
Old 01-19-2016, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Renaissanceman4life View Post
Angle and Benoit...have you watched how they begin their matches? Just watch their match from Royal Rumble 2003, or them teaming up against Edge and Rey Mysterio from No Mercy 2002. One of the greatest matches ever. I have no problem with someone doing the German suplex 12 times in a particular match, as long as they do it skillfully, also in sets of 3-5 as did Angle and Benoit.

What Brock did at Battleground or has been doing lately, is more like a kid playing the WWE video game from 2004/2005 and doing the same damn move(often a finisher like F5) over and over and over again. That's juvenile, silly, and downright retarded. And that's how Lesnar appears to me lately.

And by no means do I doubt Lesnar's credentials, his work ethic, merits, and ability as a wrestler. I like the guy. But, as I've already stated throughout this thread, if he's going to be booked like this, I have no interest in him whatsoever. I'll happily rewatch his match with Angle from WM19, Summerslam or others, 10 times.
As much as i can remember, Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit both used multiple German Suplexes as their signature moves. But for Brock, German Suplex is the most used move. Just like Roman has Superman Punch. Just like Super Kicks are used too much these days.
Amn't I right about Benoit & Angle?

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  #33  
Old 01-19-2016, 10:55 AM
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Brock Lesnar might be the most boring guy in WWE.. His entire move-set is Suplexes and F-5.. He's not capable of doing anything else.. Thank God he has Paul Heyman to make him somewhat interesting.
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  #34  
Old 01-19-2016, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Renaissanceman4life View Post
Angle and Benoit...have you watched how they begin their matches?
I have. They begin like any other WWE superstar does. Brock isn't meant to be any other WWE superstar though; he's meant to be a dominator more than a wrestler.

Quote:
Just watch their match from Royal Rumble 2003, or them teaming up against Edge and Rey Mysterio from No Mercy 2002. One of the greatest matches ever. I have no problem with someone doing the German suplex 12 times in a particular match, as long as they do it skillfully, also in sets of 3-5 as did Angle and Benoit.
I think I don't mind it as much because it's not something that's every been properly done to my knowledge; whoring out a move like that to crush an opponent. So in that respect, I kind of like it. But again, personal taste and all that.

Quote:
What Brock did at Battleground or has been doing lately, is more like a kid playing the WWE video game from 2004/2005 and doing the same damn move(often a finisher like F5) over and over and over again. That's juvenile, silly, and downright retarded. And that's how Lesnar appears to me lately.
I won't disagree that some variety would be nice in his arsenal, but I think this is where a lot of people are going to be split. For me it tells this story; Brock knows he has the best German suplex out there, to the point where he can hit it from almost anywhere. But he's so arrogant (with reason to back it up) that he relies on it too much, which sets up whoever he faces with a way to get back at him through complacency. Honestly, the thing I wait for in Lesnar matches is his opponent finding a way back in, and each of Lesnars matches post Summerslam has featured his opponents making some kind of comeback, be it short lived or not. Even Reigns got some shots in at Mania. But again, I am not disagreeing that some variety wouldn't go amiss.

Quote:
And by no means do I doubt Lesnar's credentials, his work ethic, merits, and ability as a wrestler. I like the guy. But, as I've already stated throughout this thread, if he's going to be booked like this, I have no interest in him whatsoever. I'll happily rewatch his match with Angle from WM19, Summerslam or others, 10 times.
I have nothing to say here because I don't disagree, and again this is where it comes down to personal taste and what you can take from a match as an individual. The issue I've got is:

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Originally Posted by Renaissanceman4life View Post
Brock makes millions and ruins wrestling
He doesn't ruin wrestling. Everywhere outside of WWE doesn't suffer with the delivery of each German. Again, that's a bit of a daft thing to say. Saying you dislike him and that he's bad for business is one thing, but the only thing he's ruining is peoples spines, if we're being totally honest.
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  #35  
Old 01-19-2016, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by L@RISANO View Post
You'd have to think that Brock will remain 'protected' for the entirety of his current WWE deal(which is 3 years?). Thus, when someone does finally defeat him clean, it will most probably be done as a last rub.
Here's the thing, though. Brock is going to be all of 41 when his current deal expires. That's not old in the wrasslin' business. I can absolutely see him signing another part time deal before this one runs out. I don't actually see him leaving entirely for at least another 5 years yet.
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  #36  
Old 01-19-2016, 01:40 PM
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This is outrageous. Brock Lesnar is the single greatest attraction in all of pro wrestling, and pretty much has been for the better part of 3 years now. I'm not exactly sure if your gripe with him is his place on the card, his contract, or the rise of Suplex City but I will do my best to explain all 3.

Place on Card.This one is the easiest to explain. He pretty much entered WWE in 2002 as a main event talent, exited in 2004 as a main event talent, and dominated the UFC as their main event talent. It was simple logic that as soon as he returned in 2012 that he would only compete with top billing. His legitmacy, physique, and intensity all serve to put on great matches and create many great moments which he has done these past 3.5 years. I don't think any wrestler has brought the legitimacy to his segments that Lesnar brings to every single one of his. Ever.

Contract.Brock Lesnar is a box office draw, and was making UFC more money than ever before during his run as their Heavyweight Champion. It was a huge coup for Vince to sneak in and steal him back to the WWE in 2012. He worked big money matches right away with Cena, Triple H, and eventually Punk and Taker. Ever since uttering the words "Suplex City" at WrestleMania 31 he has established a good stream of merchandise revenue and continues to draw in a way unlike any guy on the roster. He is worth every penny Vince gives him and he shows up to more dates a year than other part-time legends like Taker, Jericho, Rock, and Sting.

Suplex City. Ah, the internet. It's a beautiful thing right? Random moments and phrases get immortalized through the use of memes and vines and random phenomenons seem to form in seconds. As soon as Brock said "Suplex City Bitch" to Roman Reigns at WrestleMania 31, a phenomenon was started that cannot be turned back. The fans ate it up, bought T-shirts, started chants, and showed their excitement through the creation of memes and vines all over the internet. Feedback is extremely important in pro wrestling, and all signs point to Suplex City. It's so over with the crowd, so over in Vince's bank account, that why not let him suplex his opponent 5-20 matches a night!? It's a great maneuver, and seeing how neither Angle nor Benoit has even worked in WWE since 2007 the move is unique to Brock Lesnar in the company. It looks scary, the perfect move for someone whose entire gimmick is based on fear and imminent danger. I honestly wouldn't mind if he only ever did Suplexes and F-5s for the rest of his career, and based on the live crowd reactions, they wouldn't mind either. Long live the Beast.
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  #37  
Old 01-19-2016, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Renaissanceman4life View Post
1)Like I stated in another thread, I'm watching Battleground 2015 just now, so as to catch up with stuff I've missed from the last 2 years.

2)So it's the mainevent and suplex city chants break out already, Rollins resists the first two attempts of the G-suplex, only to be G-suplexed later, like 5-6 times. Brock Lesnar's smiling smugly, complacently, looking like an utter moron.
He's beating the hell out of Rollins, so of course he would be smiling. It's apart of his gimmick.

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Originally Posted by Renaissanceman4life View Post
3)I can't help but be fervently displeased and outraged. Even a part of the audience was booing, but a part chant "suplex city". So I wonder. Is this the same damn guy who wrestled a classic match with Kurt Angle at Wrestlemania? Or was it on account of Angle?
He had a match of the year candidate at the Royal Rumble against John Cena and Seth Rollins and another match of the year candidate against Undertaker at Hell in a Cell. I don't think that was "on account of (Kurt) Angle".

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Originally Posted by Renaissanceman4life View Post
4)The suplex city chants must be a trend originated maybe only a year ago, but I utterly despise the chants and twitter BS that has thus been lavished on the glorious artform that is pro wrestling since 2010. From the ridiculous ape-like YES chants to superfluous "this is awesome" chants. And "suplex city" seems no different. If anything, all I saw in the Battleground match and otherwise from Brock is lame attempts at trying to either please the crowd or please himself by executing the G-suplex. Yes Brock, we know you're a substantial beast incorporate. But please try to fucking give something back to us, for the ridiculous amount of money you get. It's really like how back in 2004-2005 I used to keep German-suplexing my opponents (as Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit) in the WWE video game. But even I did it with finesse, as did Angle and Benoit in actuality. So why does Brock get all this money to just play a video game and annoyingly German-suplex an opponent in the mainevent match for the WWE WHC ?
Lesnar is over, and fans chant his catchphrase. Same reasons fans chanted "What?" and "Rocky" and "Let's Go Cena". It's the same principle.

As a face, it's Lesnar's job to please the crowd.

How do you suplex someone with "finesse" in a video game?

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Originally Posted by Renaissanceman4life View Post
5)I have profoundly admired/liked/loved/respected Kurt Angle, for years now. The suplex city chants would suit him more, for being a genuine suplex machine besides being an amazing athlete. I liked Chris Benoit as well. I remember Royal Rumble 2005 and Jim Ross screaming "Angle is suplexing the world"..and later Shawn Michaels reverses the Angle Slam and sweet chin musics him out of the Rumble. That's how to be a suplex machine and please the crowd, Lesnar.
We can tell that you have an obsession with Kurt Angle, but he isn't in WWE. He's wasting his time in TNA, and few fans care about him these days.

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Originally Posted by Renaissanceman4life View Post
6)Until recently, I believed Lesnar was awesome, a fucking attraction. But I have already known this- Paul Heyman's "I'm Paul Heyman and my client the beast..blah blah blah" is one of the most tedious, unoriginal and unimpressive schtick in Wrestling right now. I didn't particularly care about the Lesnar-Taker match from WM, or their recent feud. The only matches of Brock I enjoyed(after his 2012 return that is) were against Cena and Punk. I see no utility whatsoever, as a fan, in watching Brock, if he's only going to be a retard who does like ONE move throughout a mainevent match. I must seem to you to be a bit angry, even incoherent. But passion doesn't know coherence!
Paul Heyman has the best promos in WWE today. Period.

So you didn't care about his match of the year candidate against Seth Rollins and John Cena? How about his match with Roman Reigns at WM31 that stole the show? How about his match with Undertaker at Hell in a Cell that was voted match of the year? It's fine if you don't like Lesnar, but you can't deny he has had several great matches and feuds since his return to WWE in 2012.
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  #38  
Old 01-19-2016, 04:40 PM
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What I'm getting, out of reading a number of responses, as a whole is that the OP isn't a fan of Lesnar and, as a result, makes a grandiose declaration that he's ruining professional wrestling.

In some points, I do agree, however. Lesnar's various German Suplex offense does get repetitive and annoying, at least to me. In terms of his overall in-ring ability, Lesnar isn't remotely in the same universe he was circa 14 years ago. I absolutely despise how his match with Seth Rollins was booked because it didn't do anything for Rollins; Lesnar's dominance is long since established for the past few years and his first run in WWE back in 2002 to 2004, so I saw no need to bolster it by making Seth Rollins, someone that could be counted on to provide quality for WWE for the next decade, to look line an inconsequential pest.

With that being said, the fact of the matter is that Brock Lesnar is a draw. For me, a lot of the novelty has worn off but, for quite a few many others, they get a kick of Lesnar being this decimator, this nigh unstoppable destroyer that demolishes anyone in his path. A lot of people pay money to see him do it and while it might make for some relatively dull entertainment for me sometimes, it's obviously not something that's shared by a significant number of other WWE fans.

I think there's so much potential for Lesnar to elevate other guys while still looking dominant that it's not even funny. Lesnar was the most dominant guy in wrestling for the slightly less than 2 years he was in WWE initially. He went over guys like Angle, the Hardy Boyz, RVD, Edge, the Rock, Big Show, Taker and a number of other huge names and happened to win the Royal Rumble and WWE Championship 3 times. Since he returned to WWE nearly 4 years ago, he's still the most dominant guy in wrestling when you consider what he's done. He's gone over Punk, Henry, Big Show, Rusev, Rollins, Triple H, he's the only one in the last 10 years who can definitively say he came out on the true winning end of a feud with John Cena, handed Cena the most lopsided loss of his career to win the WWE Championship for the 4th time and he not only came out on the winning end of a feud with the Undertaker, something that's also exceedingly rare, he's the man who ended the WrestleMania streak. My point is that Lesnar can't be made to look any more dominant than he already has, especially over the past couple of years, so why not use that to help elevate others who're going to be helping carry the company for another 10 years instead of constantly using said guys as fodder for someone who'll probably be gone within the next few years?
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  #39  
Old 01-19-2016, 05:22 PM
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The last sentence is the big question, isn't it? The thing is, what happens to Brock Lesnar when someone does finally cleanly defeat him and his suplexes?

Everyone who has been featured as a 'monster' in the past had to lose sometime, and in pro wrestling it's possible to have the Creative people build him back up so he can still be a highly effective performer. Of all the examples one can name, I think of Hulk Hogan after losing cleanly to Ultimate Warrior at WM6. It was a monumental defeat, yet Hogan's rep wasn't diminished at all despite the fact he never got his revenge against Warrior. He was a permanent employee (or so it was believed at the time) and he continued building his legend.

With Brock, it might be different because he's been cast as so far superior to everyone else that he can wrestle only a few times a year and still knock off everyone WWE's got.

What happens when Brock finally loses fair & square? If he keeps competing in WWE, will he ever be regarded as highly again.....or will he be essentially be finished as a major factor?

It can be said that WWE has painted themselves in a corner with this, as witnessed by the strong possibility that Brock, unlike other WWE performers, has no intention of making a career of pro wrestling.

What happens when he finally loses? Will we ever find out?
Well, people said the same thing about the Undertaker's Wrestlemania streak for years. Would it ever end? And if it does, to whom? Then we got the answer, which led us to this thread. What's that old saying, pro wrestling works in cycles?

I like Brock Lesnar. The crowd like Brock Lesnar. Vince definitely likes Brock Lesnar. To bitch about the quality of Lesnar's matches is to either completely miss the point of Brock Lesnar, or to completely miss the point of wrestling in general.

The fact is that Lesnar is playing a character. And he does it phenomenally well. And he is a great storyteller. Just because he's not putting on 30 minute matches with back-and-forth momentum doesn't change that, that's just the OP's narrow view on what makes good wrestling.

Brock Lesnar has been part of many of the best moments in wrestling over the last half-decade. His return in 2012 (I think?). The classic match with Punk. Ending the streak. Massacring John Cena for the title. The Wrestlemania 31 main event.

Lesnar, these days, at least, is not someone you go to for a wrestling clinic. He's someone you go to for huge, jaw-dropping moments. And if that's "ruining" wrestling, then shit, sign me up for some more ruining.

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Old 01-19-2016, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack-Hammer View Post
What I'm getting, out of reading a number of responses, as a whole is that the OP isn't a fan of Lesnar and, as a result, makes a grandiose declaration that he's ruining professional wrestling.

In some points, I do agree, however. Lesnar's various German Suplex offense does get repetitive and annoying, at least to me. In terms of his overall in-ring ability, Lesnar isn't remotely in the same universe he was circa 14 years ago. I absolutely despise how his match with Seth Rollins was booked because it didn't do anything for Rollins; Lesnar's dominance is long since established for the past few years and his first run in WWE back in 2002 to 2004, so I saw no need to bolster it by making Seth Rollins, someone that could be counted on to provide quality for WWE for the next decade, to look line an inconsequential pest.

With that being said, the fact of the matter is that Brock Lesnar is a draw. For me, a lot of the novelty has worn off but, for quite a few many others, they get a kick of Lesnar being this decimator, this nigh unstoppable destroyer that demolishes anyone in his path. A lot of people pay money to see him do it and while it might make for some relatively dull entertainment for me sometimes, it's obviously not something that's shared by a significant number of other WWE fans.

I think there's so much potential for Lesnar to elevate other guys while still looking dominant that it's not even funny. Lesnar was the most dominant guy in wrestling for the slightly less than 2 years he was in WWE initially. He went over guys like Angle, the Hardy Boyz, RVD, Edge, the Rock, Big Show, Taker and a number of other huge names and happened to win the Royal Rumble and WWE Championship 3 times. Since he returned to WWE nearly 4 years ago, he's still the most dominant guy in wrestling when you consider what he's done. He's gone over Punk, Henry, Big Show, Rusev, Rollins, Triple H, he's the only one in the last 10 years who can definitively say he came out on the true winning end of a feud with John Cena, handed Cena the most lopsided loss of his career to win the WWE Championship for the 4th time and he not only came out on the winning end of a feud with the Undertaker, something that's also exceedingly rare, he's the man who ended the WrestleMania streak. My point is that Lesnar can't be made to look any more dominant than he already has, especially over the past couple of years, so why not use that to help elevate others who're going to be helping carry the company for another 10 years instead of constantly using said guys as fodder for someone who'll probably be gone within the next few years?
Damn man. Yet another nice, neutral, insightful, intelligent, near-perfect post from you.

So, I don't hate Lesnar. As a matter of fact, I've been a long-time fan. It's also true that I prefer Kurt Angle, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and Sting and classic 30-minute matches, if all Lesnar/Heyman can offer now is 10 German Suplexes to most of his opponents, and "My name is Paul Heyman and my client Buhhrrrock Lesnar" schtick ad nauseam ...but let's not beat that fact of my being a bit of a traditionalist.

My claim that he is ruining "wrestling", or "The WWE" both of which are pretty much synonymous when it comes to Wrestling in North America/The US...must appear to be grandiose, sweeping, irrational, absurd, or just downright bizarre and unquestioned/unfounded. Nevertheless, I have chosen to just not pursue that path of dispute, as I know for certain only and only Aquaman, and perhaps some others(absent from this thread right now) are capable/penetrating enough of seeing validity and truth in that claim, in all its ramifications, more bad than good.

Also, my claim of him "ruining" wrestling has nothing to do with how many T-shirts he sells, tickets he sells, and whatever else from an economic/investment and returns POV.

Obviously, if britney spears and justin bieber are professional musicians, and lets say hypothetically, were to sell millions and millions of records, whereas really very few were to buy/care about Mozart or Beethoven, wouldn't it follow that "music is being ruined" ? Or does the mere fact of more people liking the former and buying their cd makes them better, because they bring in money?

And like you said, Brock has been booked to be supremely dominant, and almost invincible for so long now..that he doesn't even need/have to make Seth Rollins look like an inconsequential pest/bitch. But of course, it's not just Brock's fault because perhaps he is simply following what the writers/bookers/powers that be told him to do.

Anyhow, I enjoyed your post and the resultant discussion.
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