Antonio Cesaro

[Slyfox696]

Originally Posted by Miz_Mark

When you're trying to make a point, and someone else responds that they would like evidence of that point, and your answer is to just say it again but provide no evidence, that is a failure on your part. If you're not willing to back up your point, at least say you're not willing to do so.

I did back up my point, you're not very smart, are you?

My point was that Khali has been in several decent matches. I was questioned and I gave supporting examples. Just because I didn't give them in the manner they were requested, it doesn't mean I didn't adequately support them.

Your understanding of debate seems to be as strong as your knowledge of pro wrestling. And yes, that's a double insult to your knowledge of things.

You specified matches against Undertaker, Cena, and HBK. I remember Khali wrestling each of these men, and his matches being awful. Perhaps you were referring to house show matches, in which case I may not have seen these matches, but you did mention watching Raw and PPVs, so acting under the assumption that the matches you are specifying took place on TV, I do recall them. They sucked.

A) You're lying.

B) For argument's sake, let's say you did watch them. What was bad about them? Please describe the problem you had with them, and Khali's mobility has nothing to do with the quality of a match. Please provide in-depth analysis on the psychology, story, workate, etc. that made the matches "suck", in your opinion.

You chastised me for not supporting my argument in the manner you thought was appropriate, even though I did support it, so now it's upon you to tell me why all of those matches I mentioned sucked.

So, you don't think that someone with main event potential who is already an established mid card champion could reach the main event within a year?

I didn't say that at all. I said Antonio Cesaro, at his current trajectory, shouldn't be.

There's a big difference between a hypothetical anyone and a specific someone. Most intelligent people would know that. You obviously fail to qualify.

You could get struck by lightning on your way to work, so you better skip work to avoid that possibility.

More stupidity from you. Lightning strikes are not controllable. Who you put a wrestler with is. You can control whether someone teams with a manager, you can't control where lightning strikes.

The more you post, the lower the regard I have for your intelligence.

If the positive outcomes as weighted by probability outweigh the negative outcomes, than the course of action is still valid.

Completely false, because your probability isn't taking into account the possibility of Cesaro reaching the main-event on his own without Flair.

If Cesaro has an 80% of reaching the main-event without Flair, that means he has a 20% chance of not reaching the main-event without Flair. If you put him with Flair, he may have a 60% of reaching the main-event, which would still be a higher probability of not reaching the main-event with Flair, but a still lower probability than if he did it on his own.

That might be confusing, especially given the level of intelligence you've shown in this thread, so allow me another example. Let's say I go to a bar. I have a choice of drinking 12 ounces of beer or 12 ounces of wine. Drinking 12 ounces of beer means I'd have a better chance of driving home without wrecking due to drunk driving...but not nearly as good of a chance if I didn't drink at all.

Make sense?

Seriously, logic and reading conmprehension. Try it once.

I would never dare to try your logic or comprehension, for fear of being reduced to the level of blithering idiocy you're demonstrating.

You used the rationale that the IWC prefers heels to faces to explain why people believe Sheamus and Orton should turn heel.

Yes, because they like heels better.

You then used the rationale that the IWC prefers heels to faces to explain why someone wants Cesaro to turn face. These are contradictory thought processes.

Not at all. Cesaro is a heel, so the member of the IWC likes him. Because the person likes him, he thinks he'll be a good face. He did NOT say he wanted Cesaro to turn face. Perhaps he would like that, but he did not say that.

This really isn't difficult.

If you actually believe that Khali is 4 inches taller and 100 pounds heavier than the Big Show, you need to practive evaulating the size of the individuals you see. Khali is 1-2 inches taller than Big Show and no heavier.

I'm not even going to read the rest of your post after this.

You have confirmed your inability to comprehend that which you read. You have confirmed your inability to understand the flow of logic. The fact you think I said I believe Khali is 4 inches taller and 100 pounds heavier than the Big Show, when I didn't even mention Khali's name when talking about Big Show, shows just how big of a waste of time it is to argue with someone who clearly has no sense of reality.

Originally Posted by The Crock

I don't think that's what Sly meant. He was trying to say that Big Show is extremely agile for his size, and gets around the ring about as well as someone 4 inches smaller and 100 pounds lighter. Basically, Big Show is an anomaly, while Khali is at about the norm for someone his size. As such, you can't really compare the two and call Khali a failure. It's not fair to expect everybody of Khali's size to move as well as Big Show does, as -- by all accounts -- Big Show is an outlier. Big Show may very well be the greatest giant to ever step foot in a wrestling ring, and he's likely one of the most agile giants ever -- how does it make sense to use him as a benchmark for what makes a "good" worker for someone of his size, then?

I'm not going to reply to your post point-by-point, but this was the part I disagreed with most. If Khali nailed me in the head with one of his chops, I have no doubt in my mind it would hurt. The pure mass of his hand -- along with his natural strength -- makes his strikes viable. He doesn't need to swing very fast, because he's basically clubbing you with a cast iron skillet with each strike.

Shh, he doesn't understand common sense or reading comprehension. Don't waste any more of your time.

Originally Posted by Wrestling101

I don't know if I'm supposed to go through each paragraph of yours and put in all the html, [___] stuff, or if you have some faster way of doing it, but I'm not doing it this time.....it gets way annoying.

It does get annoying. I do it because I like to show why the support for the premise is wrong, as I show the premise itself is wrong.

First of all, let's try not to talk down to each other. I've read plenty of threads on here and you've been involved in some of them, and you seem perfectly capable of carrying on a decent conversation. I can assure you that while we may have different opinions, I know just about the same about wrestling as you do and I have plenty of insight or ideas or thoughts that may bring up topics for good debate or booking decisions about wrestling.

I doubt it, but I only talk down to people who say stupid things. That's why I haven't talked down to you, but constantly refer to the other moron as...well, a moron. If you start to say stupid things, I'll be the first to let you know. :-)

If Khali had decent matches with Undertaker, etc, it's because they had to flat out scream at him during the match and tell him what to do. You can practically see everyone who's in a match with say 'Come here while I'm standing next to the rope, and clothesline me over it', or 'Chop me in the chest!'

That's true for every match. Every match has a worker who calls the in-ring action. And if they had to "flat out scream" that would only be because Khali is deaf, which has nothing to do with his wrestling ability.

He's more on the Giant Gonzales level of wrestling. Do you consider Giant Gonzales to be decent also?

Khali is better than El Gigante.

And please provide your 30 giant wrestlers who are better than Khali.

There IS room for 2-4 big time faces if WWE goes back to intertwining storylines. THAT is the biggest reason the Attitude Era was successful, not necessarily because there was more T&A or more cursing......when the storylines and wrestlers intertwine, it makes for far more unpredictability, which leads to more wrestlers being able to get pushes at the same time, more ratings, etc. And before you say it, I'm not talking about Russo's crash TV style.

Nah, even during the Attitude Era, you rarely, if ever, had 4 main-event faces.

About Ryback and Cesaro feuding....I threw it out there as an example and as a small possibility, but if you want me to get more into it, I will. First off, let's remember that everything in wrestling is cyclical, not only eras and storylines, but wrestlers pushes. So if this were to happen, this would be when Cesaro is getting pushed, on the cusp of the main event. Ryback is not going to be feuding with Punk/Shield for the entire next 18 months. He also is not going to always be unbeatable. Much like every wrestler, including the IWC's favorite whipping boy Cena, there will be times when he is booked to lose. When done right, a wrestler's de-push or downslope doesn't kill him, still leaves him looking ok for when he does get a push again, and builds someone up. So with that in mind, Ryback could definitely be used to bring Cesaro up.

But a guy like Ryback isn't, at least with the way he's been booked so far, going to bring up a smaller midcard heel like Cesaro any time soon. Yes, all wrestlers lose, but not when they first step into the main-event, especially if they are groomed to be a big time face.

I don't know what to make of 'you probably want to cheer for Cesaro because he's a heel.' I don't root for the good guys and boo the bad guys......and I don't root for the bad guys either. I root for good character development.

Yes, you root because you like his character...who is a heel....

I don't know why you like Cesaro, but given the experience I have with the typical IWC fan, you like his character because he has an "edge", because he's not a "goody goody". You mentioned Sheamus earlier as a heel over his happy go lucky good guy character.

So I can't state with any certainty why you like Cesaro, but given the experience I have with the typical Internet fan, it's because he plays a heel character.

No, I think everyone knows Khali doesn't wrestle like a cruiserweight, he's supposed to wrestle like a Giant, and he can't do that very well at all....in fact, I'd say he does that terribly.

Oh yeah? Okay then, what makes him wrestle terribly? Can you break down his pro wrestling skills and tell us why he does it horribly? Furthermore can you compare that to how giant figures behave in other mediums of entertainment?

[Rainbow Yaz]

I come in to post my opinion on Cesaro and get to see a Sly smackdown, sweet.

I think Cesaro is slowly but surely getting better. I've said it countless times before, like most indy darlings Cesaro has to adjust to the WWE crowds and style. I respect his in ring ability, and while he is getting better, he is still learning to work a WWE crowd. I think it was a mistake to put the title on him so soon. I think you should put the title on a guy who is over, not put the title on a guy to get him over, but his run has been decent. Give him two or three years at his current rate and I think he could be a main event guy, but he won't be ready for it this year, and he doesn't need to be a face. The current main event scene is too face heavy.

As far as Khali goes, his job isn't to go out and wrestle 5* matches. During his WHC days he was built as a good monster. A good monster only needs two or three big moves. You can build a lot of psychology around those. Yeah his body has slowed him down, but to say he never wrestled a decent match is a lie.

[THTRobtaylor]

Of course his promos are "scripted", 5 words in different languages would be...they'd be learned from a book and it's part of the gimmick and joke, most people can say one word in 5 languages if they read it. That he isn't using a "phrase book" is all that stops it being outright comedy, but they are poking a little fun at the expense of guys who do and it's pretty harmless.

[Brahma_Bull9]

Originally Posted by Slyfox696

A) Despite the Internet myth, Khali has actually had several decent matches. If his body wasn't so unwilling to cooperate, he'd be a very fine wrestler I believe.

2) Antonio Cesaro should not be a face. His current role is perfect for him right now and for the next year or longer.

D) Putting Flair with him would be an awful idea. He's solid on the mic, the last thing you need is to put Flair and his "look at me" style with Cesaro.

Garden Hose) Putting Flair with him would be an awful idea. Yes, it's so bad I had to say it twice.

234,827,004,916) It'll be years before he could even possibly be considered a top face on the roster. The WWE main-event is full of faces right now. Cesaro is not overcoming Cena, Orton, Sheamus or Ryback.

A) No, and that's too bad his body is unwilling to cooperate but it is what it is. It's too bad I can't fly, if my body wasn't so unwilling to cooperate and I wasn't born like this, then I wouldn't have to pay airfare. It's too bad you weren't born at 6'4 250 otherwise you could be a wrestler or linebacker lol.

But I really agree with the rest of your post, and don't know where Cesaro should turn face came from. He's hilarious on the mic in my opinion with his current gimmick and it has sometime left to keep developing.

[The_Marker]

Antonio certainly does not need to be a face at this moment, but allow me to tell a short story about my Monday night that may be interesting to somebody. Now this story won't make sense unless you understand what kind of wrestling fan my father is, he is a perfect wrestling fan. He is smart to the business as we all are these days, and all seem to take for granted for some reason. But my father is a perfect fan because he buys into what the wrestlers are selling and allows them to do their job, even while knowing it's not real. He likes faces, and despises most heels, only while watching of course, my father would never be so childish as to hate a man playing a character he does not like ( you know who you are ). I was lucky to catch Raw last night with my father, something that rarely happens, and something both stuck out to us, two completely different kind of fans, at the same exact time........Antanio Cesaro is going to be a MAJOR player in the future, and unlike Ryback, who has been a victim of timing with the Cena injury, is following WWE plans for him perfectly. We watched that match between him and Khali, and when he hit that absolutely stunning Corkscrew Uppercut, we both looked at each other and laughed, and then he hit another perfect execution to finish the match he had won two new marks. When he won my father over I knew something, Antonio may not need to be a face now, or even anytime soon. But when an Anti-American character can get over just off of how good he is, he will find himself a face anyway. His facial expressions, I think, are on par with anyone's I have ever seen, and I am not so fast to compliment guys today on artisan psychology skills, that are all but forgotten. After the amazing TLC match, Punks nothing short of brilliant ladder climb last night, and Antonio Cesaro proving hes a stud, I believe anybody who does not see the WWE's future as a bright one, simply wants to be negative

EDIT: I did not read the rest of thread before I posted, as I felt this should be a tribute to the guy in the ring, not everybody's petty ego, that needs the meager sustenance of being "right" on the internet.

[teampunk]

cesaro vs orton, best of seven series. boom, three wins and four loses to orton to start off the new year sets up cesaro as a major player.

[Skinsley]

I absolutely agree. I was watching that match thinking "how on earth has Cesaro carried Khali through a pretty high standard match?

The man is a touch of class, and his...what I can only describe as a 'Springboard diving corkscrew european uppercut' was a move that made me jump out of my seat and text a friend what I just saw (and later on the Shields Powerbomb through a table onto steel steps). That and the Neurtralizer on the 7'4 meathead....... Cesaro is a great tallent and I can't wait to see his future matches.