What If....?

[Headman]

Originally Posted by Da Solo

Ignoring that typical blatant hipster hate on the Rock I'd expect from the IWC, I agree with this guy. The Legend Killer was really the same as every other young cocky heel, the only difference is he went over legends and made it a point to disrespect them, which, once again, is an attitude held by every young brash heel. The Viper is an unstable beast, and his moveset as the Viper is far more interesting and expansive than the Legend Killer's. Hell, even the RKO is more vicious now than before: Viper Orton just snaps you straight down HARD, Legend Killer Orton kinda ran sideways and floated with you. And the Viper, with his anger management issues and loner style with the occasional show of babyface happiness, is much more complex than "I'm younger, fresher and stronger than an 80 year old former wrestler, therefore I'll beat him and prove I was better than he was 50 years ago."

And to the OP, I also wouldn't be keen on a Randy/Rock feud that. First, Rock would destroy Orton on the mic so bad that it wouldn't even be funny anymore. Two, Rock would work better with Legend Killer Orton, yet the Viper is the overall better character and I don't wanna have to choose a lesser evil. Third, what's the sense of having Rock come back to be, as you said, "completely destroyed" by Orton? I mean I understand the Legend Killer thing, but hop off his sack (no offense)

It's not actually hipster hate on my part concerning the Rock. I've been "hating" on the Rock since the late 90's. You can dismiss my opinion if you want, but that won't make his strange fetish for comparing people to various foods and sticking them up their backsides any less annoying. Evrything else you said is right in line with where I'm at. Or... You're smelling what I'm cooking.

Now back to Orton returning to the legend killer. The Viper is a much more complex character than his cookie cutter Legend Killer routine. Not to mention the success rate for guys going back to their previous gimmicks has to be pretty low. Randy Orton's current character is actually just the end product of Orton's gradual understanding for the business. His mannerisms, his look, his in-ring work and his promos have all improved and naturally transformed his character into what it is now. The legend killer was something the WWE slapped on him, the Viper is natural.

[HellBoundPower]

As much as I enjoyed the Legend Killer gimmick more than the current Viper character, I don't think Randy can go back to that. His look is too different, he's too old, and it would be a step backwards. It just wouldn't fit him anymore, considering that he's pretty much on current legend status as it is. It wouldn't work.

As for the argument that The Viper character is deep and that The Legend Killer is cookie cutter like other cocky heels, I have to disagree. The difference between The Legend Killer and all the other cocky heel characters is the person portraying it. Randy Orton wasn't playing a character. He was a young, cocky, arrogant asshole who played himself on TV. It fit him more because it was him with the volume turned up. And as most people know, all the best characters in wrestling were the wrestlers being themselves. Stone Cold is a prime example of that.

The Viper, on the other hand, doesn't seem to fit him as much, especially as a face. You can tell that Orton is just going through the motions at this point. He's miserable with his character and is desperate for a heel turn. I think it works as a heel character, but not at all as a face, which is why everyone thinks it's so bland. He can't be as ruthless as he was while feuding with Triple H when he's a face.

Now onto the feud with The Rock. I wouldn't mind seeing it to be honest. I think the matches would be good. The problem lies in the mic work. The Rock would completely dominate Orton in that category. Orton was pretty decent on the mic as The Legend Killer, but he lacks that depth at The Viper. His slow, monotone delivery would just be another thing for The Rock to mock him with. The only way I could see it working is for The Rock to completely dominate Orton on the mic, but have Orton retaliate physically. That way Orton's weaknesses aren't on display, and his strength are in the forefront. The feud could work, and would be pretty entertaining to see.

[FlairFan2003]

Orton has never been a good face. Some guys can change their character and be effective as both. The ageing veteran HBK as a fan fav post 2002 was a very effective but not very similar to his Heart Break Kid persona that made him a main eventer a decade earlier. Others, the very best, can get way over with fans either as heroes or villains with minimal change to their look or character. Ric Flair and Kevin Nash are great examples.

Some guys however just dont have the charisma to play both. Other than his early days in The Hart Foundation when Jimmy Hart was his mouthpiece and he never spoke Brett Hart always seemed uncomfortable as a heel and wasnt as good as when he played a hero. Ricky Steamboat never attempted a full scale heel turn. Rick Rude and Tully Blanchard almost always played heels. Orton definately is a convincing heel, he's a great combo of cocky arrogance and a strong element of dangerous, almost psychopathic tendency. His charisma and presentation style totally fit that image. Orton just isnt as convincing trying to be a good guy.

That said a return to the Legend Killer gimmick isnt realistic. That persona was built largely on Orton's portrayl of a young, cocky upstart trying to steal the spotlight from the guys who earned it. Having now wrestled for a decade Orton isnt the ungrateful and disrespectful youth targeting our beloved established stars, he is an establishment star. The Viper on the other hand was a slippery, decietfull villain, very sneeky but in no way motivated by age. HHH maybe too old for the sophmoric hi jinks of DX but even today he is still "The Game" -

Orton would benefit from a return of the Viper.

[THTRobtaylor]

The more interesting thing would be someone coming in and using his Legend Killer gimmick against him, singling him out as the one to "make famous".

It'd be interesting to see him turn heel only to be upstaged by someone else out heeling him and taking out his targets, stealing his thunder. I think Bray Wyatt and his stable would be good opponents for this, especially after Orton punted the old Husky Harris, they toyed with this with Punk a while ago with the "you took me out two years ago" stuff but it never really went anywhere

Wyatt seems the kind of character that would love to get into Orton's head and get some of those other voices talking and for it all to be Randy's own fault for punting Husky...

[SacredMesa]

Originally Posted by Da Solo

Let's take a REAL sum of what Viper Orton has done so far:
Built the Legacy, some legit henchmen who were good enough to get a win over DX
Punted Vince McMahon and Shane McMahon in the skull
Kissed Stephanie McMahon in front of her helpless husband
Tried to blow up John Cena with the ring pyro
Took out every member of New Nexus
Kicked Dusty Rhodes' ass right in front of his own son and forced said son to go along with it
Busted Cody Rhodes open red as a rose
That little happy dance thing after RKO'ing Mark Henry...

And the list goes on. The Viper is a complex character, even though it has admittedly dwindled down given how horrible 2012 was to him. The Legend Killer was really no different than a Ziggler or a Wade Barret other than the added cockiness of killing legends.

And almost all of these where done when he first became the Viper, much like I said at the start of it he was complex. As the Viper CURRENTLY sits as we see him NOW, TODAY, RIGHT THIS MOMENT, he is repetative, monotoned, predictable and boring.

And Viper Orton outwrestles Legend Killer any day of the week. You way oversimplified his moveset. First of all, every superstar has a finishing moveset like the one you just knocked him for. HBK had one, Taker had one, Rock had one, Edge had one, list goes on. Second, his moveset is much more expansive than you give him credit for, here's some of what you missed:

Powerslam
The bootlegged Angle Slam
Club Clothesline
Powerbomb
Standing Dropkick
And of course, the punt kick.
And these aren't just moves he pulls out of his ass every once in a blue moon, these are moves he uses on a pretty regular basis when he can

Bolded the important part because frankly I can't remember the last time I saw him pull off any of those moves save perhaps the standing dropkick.

I get you like him but if you want to see what he is really capable of in the ring look up his matches with Edge, Foley, Beniot, and Triple H when he was the Legend Killer and get back to me. You will see a farm more diverse move set and frankly a much more interesting in ring psychology than the Viper currently puts on.

[Lorenzo von Matterhorn]

I've gone back and forth on this in the past few years, because I loved the "Legend Killer" gimmick, but I don't think it's appropriate for a 32-year-old with 9 World title reigns under his belt. The gimmick is designed to get somebody over in a huge way. It worked brilliantly for Orton, who was at the time, a smug and cocky heel who thought he was better than the has-beens he was "killing off".

Problem #2, WWE is still using the same legends they were a decade ago when this gimmick was first making its rounds. Roddy Pipper, Jerry "the King" Lawler, the Undertaker, Mick Foley, Sgt. Slaughter, etc. The few legends that the 90's made that aren't dead or still working independents, I don't Orton would even benefit from "killing" at this point.

That being said, there are two really awesome angles I would love to see, and the Legend Killer is absolutely perfect for them. Imagine, Brock Lesnar signs another temp contract with WWE. Having beaten John Cena, Triple H, and potentially laced up with the Rock, who's next? Some obvious choices are Sheamus, CM Punk, the Undertaker. But personally, I would love to see Randy Orton step up to the plate. At this point, Brock Lesnar's legend is that he ran havock through the WWE for several years, then left to conquer the UFC, came back and continued to do just as much damage. I'd love to see Orton cut a promo saying that he needed to go old school for just one night, to kill the legend of Brock Lesnar, and make him leave the WWE once and for all.

Following that match, run an angle that sees Orton really enjoying the return to the Legend Killer; he forgot the rush of punting people in the skull, and adding iconic names to the laundry list of talents he's picked off. He can't stop, as the drug is calling him back. He slowly starts hearing those "voices" in his head again...and then there's only one legend left to kill, that's on his level. If ya smeeeeelll.....

Orton turns heel, challenges the Rock to a match a SummerSlam, and the rest is history. He can drop the Legend Killer gimmick afterwards. At this point I just don't think he needs it long term or full time. And even my idea may not be that smart. Rock and Brock are both bigger draws and investments than Orton right now. Orton stands to gain much more from a win, but a loss could cripple him. Unless...

New idea, Randy Orton loses to Brock Lesnar. At this point, Brock has injured Triple H and Randy Orton. Have him come out and F5 Ric Flair during a random appearance. Can nobody stop this guy? Well... Enter: Batista. We all get the Evolution reunion we've been wanting, and the first-ever (if I'm not mistaken)encounter between these two brutes is set for a Survivor Series or WrestleMania collision.

[CBKDiamond]

I'm all for a Randy Orton heel turn, I've been patiently waiting for this for over a year now and from recent reports, looks like we're finally going to get it... and soon. And I honestly don't even care if it's the Legend Killer or the Cold Blooded Viper that returns, but I'm going to tell you why I don't think the Legend Killer would necessarily work with Orton anymore.

1.) The look, Orton no longer has the look that a "Legend Killer" would have, right now, the two Superstars which fit that mold the most are Dolph Ziggler and Cody Rhodes, they still have that young, cocky, and arrogant look while Orton's look is much more mature than it was 7 or 8 years ago, his cocky smirk has been replaced with a fierce look of dominance, I don't think he could pull of that type of look again.

2.) The second thing is... Orton, these past 8 years since beating Benoit for the World Heavyweight Championship has developed one of the most impressive legacy's (no pun intended) of any Superstar ever. It would be kind of weird for Orton to return to "The Legend Killer" when his accomplishments outshine a lot of past legends, I mean hell, Orton has more World Titles than The Rock does... "The Legend Killer" was set in place to make Orton look like a future legend, which it has, and he's passed some of them, if not most of them... so I don't know if it would really make sense.

As for a Rock/Orton feud, honestly I think I'd like one... I don't think people give enough credit for Orton's mic skills... I mean Rocky certainly has him beat, but I don't know... with how slow and maniacal Orton talks, I'm wondering if it would throw The Rock off considering of how up-beat he talks... I don't know just a thought, but a feud between the two of them would certainly be interesting.

[Da Solo]

Originally Posted by SacredMesa

And almost all of these where done when he first became the Viper, much like I said at the start of it he was complex. As the Viper CURRENTLY sits as we see him NOW, TODAY, RIGHT THIS MOMENT, he is repetative, monotoned, predictable and boring.

OK, That makes much more sense. I even admitted myself that the Viper character is in a slump, but the Legend Killer would just be outdated. He's a 9 time world champion, already surpassed his father and actually built some careers in Cody Rhodes rather than end them. What does he have to prove by killing legends?

Originally Posted by SacredMesa

Bolded the important part because frankly I can't remember the last time I saw him pull off any of those moves save perhaps the standing dropkick.

I get you like him but if you want to see what he is really capable of in the ring look up his matches with Edge, Foley, Beniot, and Triple H when he was the Legend Killer and get back to me. You will see a farm more diverse move set and frankly a much more interesting in ring psychology than the Viper currently puts on.

He does the powerslam and club clothesline almost every match, the angle slam he uses in most PPV matches, etc.

The latter argument just proves that he had better competition as the Legend Killer than as the Viper, which just goes to show the strength of the old roster. He's had matches that were just as good as those with guys like Christian, Henry, Punk and Jeff Hardy. And to be honest, Orton has never had a match with HHH that was memorable for the right reasons, even as the Legend Killer.

[SacredMesa]

Originally Posted by Da Solo

OK, That makes much more sense. I even admitted myself that the Viper character is in a slump, but the Legend Killer would just be outdated. He's a 9 time world champion, already surpassed his father and actually built some careers in Cody Rhodes rather than end them. What does he have to prove by killing legends?

As I said in the earlier example I would use it as a basis for his heel turn and a means of having him go after Cena, potentially the Rock or Brock if they stay, and potentially create a dominate heel instead of the cowardly ones we've been seeing. It would be more of a focus on going after legends on the current roster of the modern era instead of the past legends like he did before.

You could almost think of it as a different spin on CM Punk's "best in the world" gimik in that he could make it about how he is a legend and he is sick of people who don't deserve it trying to share his spot light. There are plenty of ways to make it fresh while keeping an almost throw back feel to those that miss the legend killer gimik, much like Undertaker went back to being the deadman after having the American badass gimik. Having a character return to their roots doesn't mean they rehash all the old content.

The latter argument just proves that he had better competition as the Legend Killer than as the Viper, which just goes to show the strength of the old roster. He's had matches that were just as good as those with guys like Christian, Henry, Punk and Jeff Hardy. And to be honest, Orton has never had a match with HHH that was memorable for the right reasons, even as the Legend Killer

I wouldn't say that his competition was that much better back then. I would argue Ziggler is capable of selling better than any of the people I listed while providing a good offense to sell to. Punk, Sheamus, and Daniel Bryan can all provide very differet types of matches that can allow Randy to really showcase the variety he has in the ring. Punk and Bryan would both bring out a more technical aspect of it, while Sheamus would allow him to show just how good he is in a hardcore brawler type match. The Shield can also enable him to have plenty of good match-ups, and as much as I am not a fan of ADR character his in ring ability is respectable and has worked well with Orton when he was a face and I could see it with Orton as a heel.

Orton has plenty of talent that can enable him to showcase what he can do, he simply isn't doing it on a regular basis, and to me that is a sign of complacency in him which honestly makes me resent him because I know what he can do.

[#hamler]

The legend killer gimmick was a phenomenal gimmick to give to a young up and comer. There aren't many 24 year olds that can say they main evented a major pay-per-view in the WWE for its top Championship. There aren't many 26 year olds that have gotten the best of Hulk Hogan during a rivalry. Orton's Legend Killer gimmick helped launch him to the top of the WWE without a doubt, but Orton most certainly doesn't need that gimmick anymore.

The reasoning for gimmick changes is to keep someone fresh. Reverting back to the Legend Killer gimmick would manage to ruin how good the gimmick really was. History has showed us, things are never as good as they were the original time. What would Orton do, seriously, that he didn’t do the first time around? Other than attack and feud with a whole different set of legends, it’s the same old shit. For him to return to that gimmick wouldn't make much sense in Randy Orton's career right now. Believe it or not, Orton's current gimmick is working. How many wrestlers on today's roster have kept a gimmick for over five years and are still getting the type of pops Orton is receiving every night? If he’s transitioned into the heel role, fine, tweak his character so the crowd hates him more. It doesn’t matter whether Randy is a heel or face; his legend killer gimmick doesn't need to resurface to make a couple of internet boys happy.