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View Poll Results: Kenta Kobashi vs Shawn Michaels, Ironman Match
Kenta Kobashi 46 48.94%
Shawn Michaels 48 51.06%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #61  
Old 03-01-2010, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by TheThirdHebner View Post
I think the right guy won here. Kobashi is an amazing wrestler, and he's fun to watch, but HBK is a better worker.
He absolutely is not.

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Puro is just an easier style to do.
And that is easily one of the most absurd statements I have ever heard in my entire life. I'm actually stunned right now that someone would actually have a notion as foolish as that.

How is the strong style easier to work than the American style? Are you shitting me? It takes a FAR worse physical toll on the performers and FAR more is required physically and in the ring from the wrestlers than those in the United States. How many times do you see HBK getting a Burner Hammer onto a concrete floor? Oh, that's right, never. How many hour long matches has HBK wrestled in his career? Two? Three? As compared to main event matches in Japan routinely going up to and sometimes over an hour in length? This is the easier style than HBK going out to the ring to do his routine of moves (atomic drop, body slam, elbow drop, sweet chin music, repeat) and lay around for about 20 minutes?

I'm literally baffled by that statement.

Quote:
To me, the art in professional wrestling is to make it look like you're hurting someone and hitting them while doing as little actual damage as possible. Working stiff is a shortcut. The Japanese style is centered around being stiff, and, to me, it's easy to look like you're hitting someone when you're, you know, actually hitting them.
If the performer is willing to take the physical punishment as these Japanese workers are, how exactly is that a problem? Further more how is that any different from taking a bump, such as the dozens and dozens HBK has taken through tables and off of ladders? In both cases you're physically hurting yourself, and as JR so eloquently likes to put it, "you can't teach someone how to fall".

Quote:
By the same token, HBK, for all of his faults (and I don't like the guy at all), is a very safe worker by all accounts, and you barely feel it when he's on the offensive, including his very well done superkick finisher.
Kobashi is simply better in every aspect in the ring though. He's a far better seller than HBK is, he has a reportoire of high-impact power and submission moves that are unlike most that HBK has ever had to deal with on a routine basis in the United States, and absolutely no one in wrestling history can tell the story inside the ring of the underdog rising up to victory like Kobashi can, no one.

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From a kayfabe perspective, it's pretty much even in my mind. Both guys were very good, championship-caliber guys. Neither was overly dominant, they both won and lost often. So I broke kayfabe and went with the better worker. Both are very good workers, very good at what they do...in my mind, Shawn's got a higher level of difficulty, and looks just as good, so I would have voted for him.
I am again simply baffled by your explanation for why you think Shawn is a better worker than Kobashi. You have a vastly different definition to a great worker than the overwhelming majority of people do.
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  #62  
Old 03-01-2010, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Eko View Post
He absolutely is not.
Absolutely? It's an opinion, not a fact, so absolutely seems a bit much.

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And that is easily one of the most absurd statements I have ever heard in my entire life. I'm actually stunned right now that someone would actually have a notion as foolish as that.

How is the strong style easier to work than the American style? Are you shitting me? It takes a FAR worse physical toll on the performers and FAR more is required physically and in the ring from the wrestlers than those in the United States. How many times do you see HBK getting a Burner Hammer onto a concrete floor? Oh, that's right, never. How many hour long matches has HBK wrestled in his career? Two? Three? As compared to main event matches in Japan routinely going up to and sometimes over an hour in length? This is the easier style than HBK going out to the ring to do his routine of moves (atomic drop, body slam, elbow drop, sweet chin music, repeat) and lay around for about 20 minutes?


I'm literally baffled by that statement.
I explained it later on in the post.

Quote:
If the performer is willing to take the physical punishment as these Japanese workers are, how exactly is that a problem? Further more how is that any different from taking a bump, such as the dozens and dozens HBK has taken through tables and off of ladders? In both cases you're physically hurting yourself, and as JR so eloquently likes to put it, "you can't teach someone how to fall".
I didn't say it was bad to be stiff. It can be enjoyable to watch. But it's undeniably easier to do. How can you argue that? Making it look like you're hitting a guy very hard is easier when you're actually hitting him very hard. Regarding bumps, that's a different matter, because, as you said, you can't teach someone to fall. It's going to hurt one way or the other.

Quote:
Kobashi is simply better in every aspect in the ring though. He's a far better seller than HBK is, he has a reportoire of high-impact power and submission moves that are unlike most that HBK has ever had to deal with on a routine basis in the United States, and absolutely no one in wrestling history can tell the story inside the ring of the underdog rising up to victory like Kobashi can, no one.
I disagree. Kobashi is a better seller/has better psychology, but i think Shawn is the better bumper. Regarding the storytelling, he did tell the one story very well (the underdog rising to victory), but that was pretty much his only story! He wasn't really telling any other stories. He was great at that one, but that's it. Shawn may not have told any particular story as well, but he told a wider variety of stories pretty well.

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I am again simply baffled by your explanation for why you think Shawn is a better worker than Kobashi. You have a vastly different definition to a great worker than the overwhelming majority of people do.
I guess so. Maybe I'm looking at it more from a worker perspective, as opposed to a pure fan perspective, where the main concern is whether it looks real, and that's it. To me, as I said, the true art is performing without hurting your opponent, and the puro style isn't about that as much. To me, it's easier to look like you're hitting someone when you're actually hitting them, rather then looking like you're hitting someone while they barely feel you're touch.
  #63  
Old 03-01-2010, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TheThirdHebner View Post
Absolutely? It's an opinion, not a fact, so absolutely seems a bit much.



I explained it later on in the post.



I didn't say it was bad to be stiff. It can be enjoyable to watch. But it's undeniably easier to do. How can you argue that? Making it look like you're hitting a guy very hard is easier when you're actually hitting him very hard. Regarding bumps, that's a different matter, because, as you said, you can't teach someone to fall. It's going to hurt one way or the other.



I disagree. Kobashi is a better seller/has better psychology, but i think Shawn is the better bumper. Regarding the storytelling, he did tell the one story very well (the underdog rising to victory), but that was pretty much his only story! He wasn't really telling any other stories. He was great at that one, but that's it. Shawn may not have told any particular story as well, but he told a wider variety of stories pretty well.



I guess so. Maybe I'm looking at it more from a worker perspective, as opposed to a pure fan perspective, where the main concern is whether it looks real, and that's it. To me, as I said, the true art is performing without hurting your opponent, and the puro style isn't about that as much. To me, it's easier to look like you're hitting someone when you're actually hitting them, rather then looking like you're hitting someone while they barely feel you're touch.
So are you trying to say that Japanese wrestlers aren't as good as American ones because they don't display the true art of performing without hurting your opponents because there have been plenty of American wrestlers who have hurt their opponents. I don't think HBK is going to be running to Vince if Kobashi is too stiff like he did Vader. HBK is in my opinion one of the worst sellers of moves out there and after Kobashi's onslaught, I don't think HBK will have time to do the theratics he does because he won't be getting up.
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  #64  
Old 03-01-2010, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheThirdHebner View Post
Absolutely? It's an opinion, not a fact, so absolutely seems a bit much.
All right, if his statement's an opinion, then so is yours. But, I'll take X's opinion over yours because he supports his argument much more than you support your own.

Quote:
I explained it later on in the post.
I don't know what you're referring to here, but I doubt that you explained it.

Quote:
I didn't say it was bad to be stiff. It can be enjoyable to watch. But it's undeniably easier to do. How can you argue that? Making it look like you're hitting a guy very hard is easier when you're actually hitting him very hard. Regarding bumps, that's a different matter, because, as you said, you can't teach someone to fall. It's going to hurt one way or the other.
How many wrestlers can make their moves look stiff without hurting their opponent? The only two from WWE that come to mind are William Regal and The Undertaker. Yes, it's harder to look stiff than to actually be stiff, but this point is irrelevant here, as Michaels has never looked stiff in the ring.

Oh, and since I'm anticipating a certain objection you'll make here: yes, being stiff is better than neither looking nor being stiff.

Quote:
I disagree. Kobashi is a better seller/has better psychology, but i think Shawn is the better bumper. Regarding the storytelling, he did tell the one story very well (the underdog rising to victory), but that was pretty much his only story! He wasn't really telling any other stories. He was great at that one, but that's it. Shawn may not have told any particular story as well, but he told a wider variety of stories pretty well.
Better bumper? We're talking about the guy who oversold Hulk's moves because he was pissed Hulk wouldn't return the favor, right?

Also, what the fuck does it matter if that's the only story he tells? Can you speak Japanese? I can't, and Kobashi never fails to convey his purpose and intent in the ring without a single word. Michaels is a great storyteller, and I'm sure I could get the hang of what he was about if I didn't speak English, but I doubt he could perform as well as Kobashi without the use of language.

Finally, when did telling different types of stories in the ring make you a better storyteller overall? I could play 10 different personae in the ring and, according to you, I'd then be better at telling stories than Kobashi because I have more breadth than depth.

Quote:
I guess so. Maybe I'm looking at it more from a worker perspective, as opposed to a pure fan perspective, where the main concern is whether it looks real, and that's it. To me, as I said, the true art is performing without hurting your opponent, and the puro style isn't about that as much. To me, it's easier to look like you're hitting someone when you're actually hitting them, rather then looking like you're hitting someone while they barely feel you're touch.
And your point here has absolutely no relevance to this argument, as Michaels is a far cry from a wrestler who can make it look like he's hurting his opponent when he, in fact, isn't.
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