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  #141  
Old 12-08-2015, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by A11oftheLights View Post
I agree fully. It often comes from both ends the far sides of the political spectrum. Often makes me feel like taking a drill and going to town on my temple
I would have if I haven't stopped watching major news broadcasts or reading the paper years ago
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  #142  
Old 12-08-2015, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by It's Damn Real! View Post
Muslims shouldn't have to account for the Islamic State. But they have to acknowledge that they are also Muslims. They're simply literal ones. Ones who take the scripture literally. As a moderate, you can call them extremist, so as to divorce them from the version of the faith you believe, but you can't say they aren't Muslim. They are. They're just following the letter of the law while you follow the spirit of it.
Bang on. I don't get why a lot of the Muslims call ISIS non Muslims. I'm a Muslim and I can accept that they are. Just because they're horrible people, I don't care what people have to say to me in regards to being part of the same religion as them. Like you said, they're the ones that take certain verses literally, but they do follow Islam and just because they have horrible intentions, that doesn't take their faith away from them.

Now the only part I don't get about your post is where you say Muslims HAVE to acknowledge that ISIS are also Muslims. Some do and some don't, I don't understand the major issue with that.
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  #143  
Old 12-08-2015, 03:05 PM
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Bang on. I don't get why a lot of the Muslims call ISIS non Muslims. I'm a Muslim and I can accept that they are. Just because they're horrible people, I don't care what people have to say to me in regards to being part of the same religion as them. Like you said, they're the ones that take certain verses literally, but they do follow Islam and just because they have horrible intentions, that doesn't take their faith away from them.

Now the only part I don't get about your post is where you say Muslims HAVE to acknowledge that ISIS are also Muslims. Some do and some don't, I don't understand the major issue with that.
Because it’s not factually true to say they aren’t. They are. The same as Fred Phelps’ psycho band of funeral-picketers are Christian. The same as the Klan are Christian. So is Pat Robertson. So was Jerry Falwell. So are the televangelists who fucking rob gullible old ladies of thousands of dollars every year.

You don’t just get to declare the people you disagree with, who share the same connective tissue to the belief system you adhere to "not true", and therefore not of the same system you are.

Example: Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are both Democrats. If tomorrow Hilary Clinton says something John Kerry disagrees with, he doesn’t get to claim that Clinton isn’t a “true Democrat”, or worse, that she isn’t one at all, simply because he dislikes that whatever it is Clinton said reflects poorly on him because of his association with the party they share.

This is why I said earlier that while moderate Muslims don’t have to make excuses for the Islamic State, they do have to acknowledge that they are actually Muslim as well. They don’t get to skirt the connections just because they think that the IS interpretation of the Koran is “too literal”, or “perverted”. Even if the whole world outside the minority of Islamists and Jihadists agrees.
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  #144  
Old 12-08-2015, 04:02 PM
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I just always viewed Christianity and Catholicism differently, having attended a Catholic church growing up and having some Catholic schooling, and then moving on later in life to something else that identified itself as Christian and felt like a whole new World.
As an Irish person, I find this really weird. We were taught that Catholicism is basically the grandfather of all Christianity, which is pretty much the case. And we were also told that non-Catholic versions of Christianity were full corrupt and crazy people, which was a touch hypocritical in hindsight.

But nothing makes me happier than seeing the Catholic church slowly crumble to oblivion in this country.
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  #145  
Old 12-08-2015, 04:22 PM
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But nothing makes me happier than seeing the Catholic church slowly crumble to oblivion in this country.
The decline in the Catholic Church's stranglehold over the hearts and minds in the Republic really has been startling in the last 2-3 years.

I suppose there are a lot of people who could only bury their heads in the sand for so long/deny historical abuses for so long before actually having to think for themselves.
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  #146  
Old 12-09-2015, 12:34 AM
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What about the Gelgamek Catholics?
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  #147  
Old 12-09-2015, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by It's Damn Real! View Post
Because it’s not factually true to say they aren’t. They are. The same as Fred Phelps’ psycho band of funeral-picketers are Christian. The same as the Klan are Christian. So is Pat Robertson. So was Jerry Falwell. So are the televangelists who fucking rob gullible old ladies of thousands of dollars every year.

You don’t just get to declare the people you disagree with, who share the same connective tissue to the belief system you adhere to "not true", and therefore not of the same system you are.

Example: Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are both Democrats. If tomorrow Hilary Clinton says something John Kerry disagrees with, he doesn’t get to claim that Clinton isn’t a “true Democrat”, or worse, that she isn’t one at all, simply because he dislikes that whatever it is Clinton said reflects poorly on him because of his association with the party they share.

This is why I said earlier that while moderate Muslims don’t have to make excuses for the Islamic State, they do have to acknowledge that they are actually Muslim as well. They don’t get to skirt the connections just because they think that the IS interpretation of the Koran is “too literal”, or “perverted”. Even if the whole world outside the minority of Islamists and Jihadists agrees.
But to what extent? If the 1 billion+ Muslims in the world all said that they're part of the same religion as ISIS, how would people look at them? ISIS claim their actions are justified by the Qur'an...the same book all the other Muslims read. Now I know, intelligent people like yourself are aware that there's a difference with the moderate Muslims and ISIS but there are a lot of people that label all Muslims as terrorists. That's not to say ISIS aren't Muslims, but just imagine the backlash against Muslims if they all just admitted that. In an ideal world, that wouldn't matter but you know how people can be.
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  #148  
Old 12-09-2015, 10:12 AM
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But to what extent? If the 1 billion+ Muslims in the world all said that they're part of the same religion as ISIS, how would people look at them? ISIS claim their actions are justified by the Qur'an...the same book all the other Muslims read. Now I know, intelligent people like yourself are aware that there's a difference with the moderate Muslims and ISIS but there are a lot of people that label all Muslims as terrorists. That's not to say ISIS aren't Muslims, but just imagine the backlash against Muslims if they all just admitted that. In an ideal world, that wouldn't matter but you know how people can be.
I like to hope the answer is “honestly”. Because it means you are willing to put your beliefs on the table for scrutiny and criticism. That you are willing to actually talk about about them in a meaningful way, free of the threat of violence when someone disagrees or questions your logic. Free of the promise of death when someone mocks your beliefs, or draws a cartoon of your prophet.

I get what you are saying, and I understand your fear. I don’t want to see peaceful Muslims, or believers of any kind, actually discriminated against or attacked because they are conflated with the IS, or religious extremists in general. But that doesn’t mean you get to skirt the fact that the same book unites you. You simply interpret it in entirely different ways. And it’s important for the world to understand this, which is why I am so much in favor of moderates not denouncing the IS as “not Muslim”. By being honest about your beliefs, you can educate the ignorant among us about how it’s actually possible for Muslim believers to live in and embrace a free society. You are the example of why the answer is not blaming all Muslims for the actions of a minority of them.

I’m actually in the process of re-reading Sam Harris’ “Letter to a Christian Nation”, and I actually had to highlight a passage in the opening “Note to the Reader” a few days ago because of how starkly it reflected what we are experiencing right now.

It reads:

“In Letter to a Christian Nation, I have set out to demolish the intellectual and moral pretensions of Christianity in its most committed forms. Consequently, liberal and moderate Christians will not always recognize themselves in the “Christian” I address. They should, however, recognize one hundred and fifty million of their neighbors. I have little doubt that liberals and moderates find the eerie certainties of the Christian Right to be as troubling as I do. It is my hope, however, that they will also begin to see that the respect they demand for their own religious beliefs gives shelter to extremists of all faiths. Although liberals and moderates do not fly planes into buildings or organize their lives around apocalyptic prophecy, they rarely question the legitimacy of raising a child to believe that she is a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. Even the most progressive faiths lend tacit support to the religious divisions in our world. In Letter to a Christian Nation, however, I engage Christianity at its most divisive, injurious, and retrograde. In this, liberals, moderates, and nonbelievers can recognize a common cause.”

Harris wrote this in September of 2006. Nearly a decade ago.

In effect, you can scrub all the references to Christian with Muslim and the entire structure never fails. The same message holds true today, nearly ten years later.
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