The Veteran Effect - Right/Wrong

[Nolan]

This post is to talk about the veterans in WWE and their purpose on the company. People like The Big Show, Kane, Rey Mysterio, Christian and now maybe Chris Jericho are the type of wrestlers that have the purpose to elevate other talent, but however WWE usually puts them in the main event scene like Sheamus vs. The Big Show currently, but the fact of the matter is that they already have that effect of "old guys" that can't win the big one, and that can be a real problem.

Lets be real for just a second, if WWE needed a guy to feud with CM Punk to replace an injured John Cena they could right away call Mysterio to do it, and he would do it, but we all would know that CM Punk would win and that's not right.

With the Big Show vs. Sheamus we all know that Sheamus is going to retain because Big Show is so misused that he will not be a World Heavyweight Champion anytime soon. In fact I think that half the fans right now never saw a full World Title Reign from Paul Wight. (ok, that 45 sec thing does not count). So my point is should WWE use them so often to elevate other guys instead of giving them credibility as main eventers and veterans to get the best out of them?

The reason I'm stating this it's because any PPV where any of these guys headline for a title match will be a flaw, at least in their current state, because it would be 100% predictable, it will not be a classic memorable feud and it does not help the fact that in one minute they are losing to guys like The Miz and the next minute are challengers for guys like Sheamus and still be looked down as a credible challenger. Discuss!

[TempestH]

If those vets were pushed harder, people would claim that they were "holding back the young talent".

Big Show has already held the WWE Championship, the REAL top title twice.

Most of those guys won't be around forever so they need to help build the next crop of stars. It was Big Show who gave John Cena his WrestleMania moment back at WM20, and help put him over as a future top talent.

However, I do agree that guys like Kane, Christian, Show, Rey, and Jericho could stand to be built up a bit more and pushed as "the elite stars of WWE", instead of simply just beating up on midcarders until it's their turn for a title shot/title reign.

[THTRobtaylor]

It depends on the veteran in question, after all - Cena is now a veteran too.

In some guys cases, like a Kane or Big Show, it's about maximising their longevity and value, so that is done by making other guys who they want to get over look strong, sometimes by beating them, other times by just "hanging" with them in the ring and learning.

In someone like Jericho's case, he is a part-timer through choice, but again is a good enough teacher/worker that anyone he works with is going to improve and get over. So they can put him as the champion or play to his strengths, which is the guy who "should" be the top guy but isn't. he is comfortable with that role and once his 6-9 month stint is up each time he has normally elevated at least one person, this last time it was Ziggler.

Rey, Christian are again different. They are the guys who are full-timers, but not really true main eventers in that they will sell out shows themselves. These guys have to do as they are told, and the problem has been that the guys doing the telling either misuse them or they are so injury prone as to not be "reliable" to move up that next level of push. Christian's window was through Edge either as an opponent or as it turned out... now that is gone he is kinda the odd one out.

[Mustang Sally]

It's an interesting question, isn't it? Character and storylines have to be maintained; everyone can't be champion at the same time and everyone can't be a jobber. The guy who is the titleholder is supposed to stand out above the rest, yet if we can guess the result of his title matches before they happen, there's less reason to buy the PPV.

I think WWE manages all this well. Guys like Big Show, Christian and Jericho have been champions in the past; we know they're capable of winning it again and we can never be fully sure they're going to lose an individual match. The factor that differentiates pro wrestling from boxing or MMA is that, in the latter two sports, there's a clear winner and loser.....while in wrestling, there are a hundred factors that can taint the result of a match: someone like Big Show might be unbeatable on paper, but there are numerous "un-clean" ways for him to win or lose an important match. The same goes for everyone else. Look at John Cena in his last PPV contest against Punk: he won the match, hands down......yet, the record books will reflect a loss. That's wrestling.

A deeper indication is seeing guys like Randy Orton cleanly pinned, which is something we've been treated to in the past couple of months. That's the real veteran effect; the point when a true star who never loses cleanly suddenly starts to. We recently saw Randy defeated by Big Show; no frills, no foul play.....a straight pinfall loss. Randy is apparently transitioning to "past his peak" status, as had Chris Jericho and many other wrestlers you could name. Does that mean Randy will never be the champ again? No, of course not......and I'd be surprised if he didn't have several more title reigns in front of him.

I find the "veteran effect" to be right and proper......really, it makes the spectacle of pro wrestling more realistic and believable.

[sdelfin]

You have a good point that the downside to the veteran role you talk about is that it can lead to predictability. And that is certainly a bad thing. Perhaps back in the 80s, we the fans(I was there), were much more simple minded, but lots of people believed that each new monster heel was a credible threat to Hulk Hogan. Now you have Big Show going after Sheamus, and there's little excitement. It doesn't help that Big Show ended up looking quite ineffective in his recent feud with Cena.

Christian's feud with Randy Orton is an interesting case study. Amazing matches, and yet Christian never once went over Randy in a singles match(I'm not counting that DQ title win as going over). And it's strange because Randy has been doing clean jobs to people for a while. It was a lopsided feud. I'm not a wrestling booker or promoter, and I don't even like to do much armchair booking, but I did not see the point in having Christian win the belt on PPV in the wake of Edge's sudden retirement, only to lose it a couple of days later. And while Christian is one of my favorite guys on the current roster, it has nothing to do with bias. I would think there is more of an upside to Randy Orton going after the belt, even if for a just few weeks until the next PPV. Christian could have a respectable title defense on TV before to establish him as champ, and in the long term as a guy who can indeed carry the belt even though he might not be as successful on top as the Cenas and Ortons. Instead, WWE was predictable and just rushed the belt to Orton at the first TV taping they could. And a guy like Christian should not be doing two-minute jobs on TV to Damien Sandow. Nothing wrong with putting over Sandow, but the quickie matches are just a symptom of poor time management and do no good for either guy.

I think Mark Henry's run as champ was a bit surprising and more well received than expected because it was not something predictable.

[THTRobtaylor]

In the case of Orton, remember he is still being "punished" to an extent for his last failure. Also if the rumors are correct and he is the guy who cussed out Vince, then it's very likely more pinfalls will be in his future.

In the case of Henry, there's 2 ways of looking at it. Either his "Hall Of Pain" work was SO good that Vince "saw the light" or it was more of a "lifetime achievement" award for Henry, who was clearly nearing the end of his career (now seemingly borne out).

It's rare for a veteran to "force" their way into the titles through their work after never having them, but not impossible. Bret did it, Jericho did it in 2008 and Eddie did it. Most of the other times it's been about "the right time for them or their turn". On balance I think Henry was more the 2nd, he'd been around so long that it was his time, and it happened to coincide with a new gimmick.

If anything veterans get a better deal now than they ever did, back in the Hogan era you had Tito, Harley, Valentine and DiBiase, none of whom got a one on one World title shot on PPV, much less a title above midcard. But those guys all played crucial roles in elevating men like Bret and Shawn long before either man was a World title contender.

Through the 90's it was guys like Jake Roberts, Jerry Lawler and to an extent Backlund, he managed to get pushed through his work on his character.

Who decides what a veteran is anyways? in the 80's you would say anyone who had been in the WWF 5+ years counted, as you knew they had been in the territories for 5-10 years before that at least. Today you have an almost "bizzaro" situation where men like Jericho, Triple H and Taker who are only mid 40's, (which was "young" by 80's standards for a WWF veteran, Race, Steele, Lawler were that age) as 20+ years into their careers and in Taker and Trips' cases 22 and 18 years in WWE itself before their previous careers, yet they are relatively youthful still in appearance and ability. So they rightfully are the "legends" but a modern veteran is as nearer to someone like Cena or Orton with 10 years on the main roster but 5 previous. Hell technically Ryback, with over 8 years served as a WWE employee is a veteran, despite being to the main roster, a newbie.

[vikesfan]

Orton wasnt even at Raw Monday so it wasnt him that cussed out Vince. He even posted on his Twitter Mon. night that he left the movie shoot to hop on board a plane to go to San Jose for the S-Down taping.

And how is he still being "punished" when even in his losses theyre still making him look good(like entering the matches "injured" so they can give him an excuse for losing)? Plus did he look weak after S-Down this week? No.

[The Aerial Assassin]

I don't think there's any more unpredictability to it at all. Your example of Cena being injured and Rey taking the cake is something that could happen to anybody. Cena is injured already, and they've set up Ryback as a potential place holder just in case. If Cena isn't healthy then Ryback will definitely lose to CM Punk. So no, I don't think "veteran" has anything to do with it.

Case and point, last SummerSlam, everybody thought that Mark Henry's match against Orton would end with Orton retaining and Henry being dropped to the mid-card like always. But low and behold the veteran and power house of Mark Henry retained.

Rey Mysterio held the WWE title just last year, albeit for half a night. Kane, just two years ago, held the WWE title. Jericho also headlined WrestleMania earlier this year and it was believable for him to take the title from Punk.

Christian won't be a big time player because even though he's superb in the ring, he just doesn't draw potential Main Event matches. People talk about the World title feeling like a third Mid-card title, and with Christian, I could actually get that feeling. It's not a knock on Christian because he's good at what he is... a put over guy.

Big Show and Kane are always believable contenders. It's never really sure if someone's going to win or lose when they're contenders until the match is over.

[THTRobtaylor]

Orton is still not being used to his full potential, the movie deal was signed before the suspension. Randy though will not be used as a "top guy" until Vince is certain he can trust him not to screw up again the moment he pulls the trigger. The damage of an Orton title push and 3rd strike at the same time is far too much of a risk. Orton only has himself to blame, now the tightrope he walks is very narrow in terms of wellness...and his track record is against him.

So Vince may turn to other guys in the meantime, who may be greener or not as over but have fewer or no strikes or a better temperament and use Orton to put those guys into position. Keeping him strong for that makes sense, keeping him strong as a main eventer/champion on 2 strikes with a history of relapse is suicide.