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  #21  
Old 12-09-2017, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Navi View Post
I know why women don't come forward, and I have a problem with it. And because you don't know me personally, let me give you a little background here.

First of all I am a woman who was a victim of sexual harassment when I first started working for the school board. One of the guys who was my superior took every opportunity to get me alone and make sexually related comments to what I was wearing, the perfume I had on, whatever he could do he did. He never laid a hand on me, but his comments where bad enough.

Now I had only been there for a short time, I was just married and just found out I was pregnant. My husband just got his job with the bank and we were in the process of building our home, so I didn't need this shit in my life, and made a decision to put a stop to it.

I tried the direct method and it didn't work. I went to my superior (another man) and he didn't want to know anything about it, so I went to the only person I knew would help me, my father. My dad was high up in the government and was very well known. This asshole I worked with had no idea we were even related, which was his downfall. My dad went straight to the Minister of Education who had a meeting with me. He then went to the Superintendent of Schools and made sure that he started an investigation in to the matter.

They soon had proof of his actions because this time they were looking for it instead of turning their heads. Within 2 month of my meeting with the Minister, the guy was gone. Early retirement was the excuse, he was never brought up on charges or suffered any punishment except for losing a very well paying job.

After he left, other women I worked with came forward and told me they had been putting up with him for longer than I did. I couldn't understand why none of them had done anything about him before I did. I fought the battle alone, and because of their inability to take him on he was free to do whatever he wanted. And that's one of the reasons I wanted him out of there, so he couldn't do it to anyone else.

So before you sit there in judgement of others, yes I have walked in their shoes, I have been there and done that and am stronger for it now. Quite honestly if I had never done or said anything about the actions of someone in my case would have been 27 years ago, I wouldn't bring it up now. You have to make a decision either to do something or do nothing.
Navi, you know I like you and think you are a fine poster, so please don't take this as me trying to attack you or start some shit with you.

FIrst off, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. No one deserves it and it is kinda shit that the guy who did it basically got away with no real punishment.

THat said, just because it was easy for you to take a stand, doesn't mean everyone else has that strength. I'm glad you had the strength to step up and I hope you haven't had any other incidents since then. The issue is that so many people have this narrow mind set that "If I can do it, then anyone can do it." That isn't the case. A lot of women, and men as well, suffer deep seeded trauma from the incidents. So many of us tend to blame ourselves for being victims, and often we are afraid of what might happen if we come forward.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, so I will use myself as an example. Like I said earlier, I was 9 and at a two week summer camp run through the church I was attending at the time. I only knew one other person at the camp, he was my neighbor and good friend, but he was a couple years older than me and he was much more popular than I was, because I have always been an extremely shy person. One of the counselors came up to me one day while I was sitting alone while at lunch and started to talk to me and was extremely nice. Over the next seven or eight days he would always hang out with me, took me fishing, bought me food from the snack stand(which was huge for chubby nine year old me), picked me for his team in sports. He was basically my best friend at camp. Then one day in the showers, it was just the two of us and I was sexually assaulted. I'm not going to go into detail as to what exactly happened because it is graphic, but it probably isn't too hard to guess. For the next few days after he completely ignored me and hung out with other kids. I was hurt, because I thought I did something to upset him. It took a couple of days for the reality of the situation to set in, for my mind to kind of process what actually took place, and I was scared. This guy had been my friend, I didn't want him in trouble. Through support groups and stuff, I have found that that mind set is super common among victims. This guy had been nice to me, he buttered me up and made me feel good, then he used his position of power over me to take advantage of me. That is what happens in a fair number of cases, and because our society has a tendency to victim blame, the victims in these cases are scared and feel powerless.

I'm not going to say that what you went through wasn't bad, because it was and like I said, I'm glad you had the courage to take a stand. Most people don't though, and you can't judge them based on how they handled the situation differently than what you did.
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  #22  
Old 12-09-2017, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by SSJPhenom View Post
I knew this would happen. Look, I'm not going to argue and go back forth with you. I didn't start this thread to talk about the legitimacy of women's claims of sexual harassment. I started this thread to talk about what is and is not considered sexual harassment. Now, do I think it is ok to KISS A WOMAN I WORK WITH OUT OF NOWHERE?? No I do not think it's ok, especially if I barely know the person. Now, do I consider telling someone that they look good today(not that they look hot, not that their ass looks nice, not that they have nice breast), that their outfit is nice, or that I like their hair sexual harassment? No I don't. Do I consider a hug or a pat on the back sexual harassment? No I don't. Do I consider a friendly peck on the cheek sexual harassment? No I don't. If I did, then I should go to my boss right not and tell him that I was sexually harassed Tuesday when a female coworker of mine gave me a hug for fixing her computer and kissed me on the cheek. I think I'll go right now and get her fired for that even though I know she meant nothing by it and was just over joyed that she could work on a halfway decent performing CPU for the rest of the day.

That was the point of this thread. I feel if a woman or anyone feels they've been abused, by all means, come forward and tell someone. Having said that, I also feel that not all abuse is the same. My point was, people nowadays are too PC, selfish, and not generally good people. I'd want everyone I work with to be comfortable around me and if I'd ever done something to make them feel uncomfortable, unless it was malicious, I'd want them to tell me so that I could make sure it never happened again. If they did think it was malicious, though, then they should tell someone. I don't think a hug, back pat, or yes, even a simple friendly kiss on the cheek are malicious, though.
You also once tried to argue for pedophilia, so of all the people in this thread who have an opinion on what constitutes sexual harassment, I have a feeling that yours isn't going to be taken as fact.
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  #23  
Old 12-09-2017, 02:12 AM
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Edit: To Navi,

I feel like there's a sentence or something missing from your post because, as far as I can tell, you're acknowledging (in fact, detailing) how culture can discourage women from coming forward and how women can come forward yet be suppressed by power structures (as in what would have happened to you if you weren't fortunate to have a father high up in government), yet you're saying people shouldn't come forward years after the fact because... why, exactly? Because if they didn't feel comfortable at the time saying something, or do say something but have it suppressed... I'm having trouble completing the thought because I just don't understand how it follows.
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  #24  
Old 12-09-2017, 08:44 AM
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Unless the intent of your post was to prove my point, this does not make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navi View Post
I know why women don't come forward, and I have a problem with it.
I'm sorry - and you said MY post was 'sitting in judgement of others'?

Quote:
I tried the direct method and it didn't work. I went to my superior (another man) and he didn't want to know anything about it, so I went to the only person I knew would help me, my father. My dad was high up in the government and was very well known. This asshole I worked with had no idea we were even related, which was his downfall.
So, what you're saying is, you weren't believed, or people didn't care, when you got the courage to stand up for yourself? I'm glad you had your father in a position of power in order to stand up for you. I'd be willing to bet his other victims, who you so awfully judge (and BLAME?!) here:

Quote:
After he left, other women I worked with came forward and told me they had been putting up with him for longer than I did. I couldn't understand why none of them had done anything about him before I did. I fought the battle alone, and because of their inability to take him on he was free to do whatever he wanted
maybe didn't have the father in government in order to help them, and were afraid of the treatment you got before involving him.


Quote:
So before you sit there in judgement of others,
Oh the irony.

Quote:
yes I have walked in their shoes, I have been there and done that and am stronger for it now. Quite honestly if I had never done or said anything about the actions of someone in my case would have been 27 years ago, I wouldn't bring it up now
So, as you believe so strongly that women absolutely have to speak up immediately - why were there multiple occurrences of this happening? To be clear, I disagree, but - this is your argument - why did you allow multiple sexual comments? Why did you not report the FIRST time he tried to get you alone, or make you feel uncomfortable? I understand why you may not have, but according to your own posts here, you do not.


Quote:
You have to make a decision either to do something or do nothing.
Women do make that decision - but so what if that decision is made years later? I made the decision to speak up 7 years after I was first assaulted. I won't bore you with my story or reasons, but according to you, I shouldn't have bothered having him imprisoned, because I waited?

And that is why your post disgusts me.

Last edited by HBK-aholic : 12-09-2017 at 08:49 AM.
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  #25  
Old 12-09-2017, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Yaz View Post
You also once tried to argue for pedophilia, so of all the people in this thread who have an opinion on what constitutes sexual harassment, I have a feeling that yours isn't going to be taken as fact.
If that's what you took from that thread and if, judging by her earlier post is what HBK-AHOLIC took from my comments in this thread is that I condone sexual harassment, don't think it's a big deal, think that small things don't matter, then either you two misread, misunderstood, or intentionally misconstrued my comments into something they're not. I'll go with the latter because I don't think either of you are stupid enough to misread or misunderstand. Jack-Hammer got it.

But of course, I'm just the resident pedophile around here so everything I say should be overlooked and simplified into, "Well his outlook is awful". I was simply saying that some people accept different acts, situations, etc as harassment. I was simply saying that sometimes, things can be taken out of context or taken to mean something different then it was. I guess next to pedophilia I'm also a sexual harassing perv since I told one of my long time co-workers that I liked her hair yesterday. She'd clearly had a haircut and had been talking about it with others. So when I talked to her I told her hair looked nice. Damn, I'm the asshole. I see it now. I guess I shouldn't have told another one of my co-workers that I liked his new shoes. Am I saying that everyday I hug, kiss, and comment on every woman I see? No. As I said I'm not a big hugger, and honestly, I only really socialize with the people I've been working closely with for over 6 years now. Like I said, if I'd ever done anything to make anyone feel uncomfortable either tell me so I can make sure it doesn't happen again or report me so they make sure it doesn't happen again. I don't think I've done that since everyone I socialize with at work seem to respect me. I respect them. As I said in an earlier post, nobody signs up to go to work to be touched, commented on, etc. People should be comfortable at work so if a hug, a back Pat, or a compliment offends someone, tell someone. I'm just not above thinking that sometimes, maybe a lot of times that stuff is taken out of context and over blown into becoming something it's not. Kinda like you've done with my own comments. If someone is legitimately offended, though, they should come forward. Idc what the situation, if you don't like it then do something about it.

Just so we're clear, though, Tuesday when I fixed my co-workers computer and she hugged me and kissed me on the cheek, I was sexually harassed and I should go to my boss and report her for it?
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Last edited by SSJPhenom : 12-09-2017 at 12:30 PM.
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  #26  
Old 12-09-2017, 12:35 PM
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Well, yeah. You're well within you're right if you felt uncomfortable about it. No question. Theres a reason why they're called co-workers instead of besties. You're there to work. Not kiss, hug, make a pass, grab ass, etc. That's just what being in a professional environment is.

There are ways to show support to your colleagues that doesn't require getting handsy or saying things that sound flirtatious.
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Old 12-09-2017, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SSJPhenom View Post

But of course, I'm just the resident pedophile around here so everything I say should be overlooked and simplified into, "Well his outlook is awful". I was simply saying that some people accept different acts, situations, etc as harassment. I was simply saying that sometimes, things can be taken out of context or taken to mean something different then it was.
Not going to bother re-replying to this, so here:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Me, in this very thread
I couldn't care less what YOU believe constitutes harassment, nor what YOUR intent was when sexually harassing someone.

Your intent does not matter. Just don't touch your colleagues without their consent. It's actually really simple.

Based on your previous posts in the Symposium I am 100% sure you and I have very differing opinions on what constitutes harassment or assault. Luckily, I have the law on my side, whereas you have nothing but what YOU want to do to a woman/girl and why we should be okay with it because you weren't 'malicious'.
Bold specifically.

Quote:
If someone is legitimately offended, though, they should come forward. Idc what the situation, if you don't like it then do something about it.
Boy, you are making this easy for me.

Reasons someone may feel unable to 'do something about it':

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me, in this very thread
First, women are rarely believed, and don't want to go through what I explained upthread.

Second, many people don't actually like what sexual harassment is constituted as. In the Opening Post to this thread, SSJPhenom admits he doesn't think kissing a colleague is sexual harassment - it is, legally, and his colleague would be legally within their right to say so. But, in situations which may not be seen as 'that bad' or 'not even assault' - are people going to come forward? And, remember, the US voted for an admitted sexual predator to be POTUS, so forgive them if they don't believe they'll be taken seriously.

Third, they just want to forget what happened. There are many accounts of victims saying they felt the reporting and court case felt just as bad as the attack. Most people don't want to relive it over and over.

Fourth, in many cases the attacker is in a position of power. Whether it be teacher, boss, judge, parent, celebrity. Those people can very easily ensure you are not believed, that you don't get to work in your chosen field, that you will be humiliated, that everyone will hate you. They can make victims genuinely believe they are wrong, that what is happening to them is ok.

There are more reasons, as I say, a quick google can explain them far better than I can. The issue with this question, is again, it isn't asked as a genuine question, but as a way to judge the victim, in belief that waiting means lying. When there are hundreds of psychological reasons for waiting if people cared enough to actually want to know, and not just to discredit the victim.

Quote:
Just so we're clear, though, Tuesday when I fixed my co-workers computer and she hugged me and kissed me on the cheek, I was sexually harassed and I should go to my boss and report her for it?
I realise you're attempting to have one of us say 'No, don't be stupid, of course that doesn't count!'. But it does - you would absolutely be within your rights to speak to your manager about her sexual conduct if you felt it inappropriate or uncomfortable, male or female.

What you don't seem to grasp is that just because YOU don't constitute something as harassment, doesn't make that thing suddenly not harassment. For example, if you kissed me at work I would kick you in the balls, but you feel thats ok. The solution is simple. Don't do that shit.

You're acting as if you're constantly at risk of being accused of sexual harassment, because you somehow believe it's your right to touch your co-workers and if they say no, or complain - they're being selfish - SERIOUSLY? That alone tells me everything I need to know about you. So, to keep everyone safe, you keep your hands and lips to yourself unless expressly given consent to do otherwise. Why is that so difficult to grasp?

Last edited by HBK-aholic : 12-09-2017 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 12-09-2017, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by HBK-aholic View Post
What you don't seem to grasp is that just because YOU don't constitute something as harassment, doesn't make that thing suddenly not harassment. For example, if you kissed me at work I would kick you in the balls, but you feel thats ok. The solution is simple. Don't do that shit.
And see, there you finally did it. Good on you. That was the point of this thread. That's what I wanted to discuss. Is sexual harassment black or white where context doesn't matter or is it a grey area where different people accept different things? She hugged and kissed me on the cheek. I didn't feel harassed or that she had anything else running through her mind except, "Yay, my CPU isn't freezing up every other mouse click". Some people would feel different. That's what I wanted to explore. So I grasp what you seem to think I can't grasp. If someone hugged you at work you'd assualt them. Context be damned. I would or wouldn't based on context.

For the record, I would never question a woman's, man's, or anyone's claim of sexual harassment. If someone came to me and said they'd been harassed at work I'd tell them to report it and if they refused I'd probably do it for them. No place for anyone at any workplace to feel uncomfortable. Work is hard enough as it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBK-aholic View Post
You're acting as if you're constantly at risk of being accused of sexual harassment, because you somehow believe it's your right to touch your co-workers and if they say no, or complain - they're being selfish - SERIOUSLY? That alone tells me everything I need to know about you. So, to keep everyone safe, you keep your hands and lips to yourself unless expressly given consent to do otherwise. Why is that so difficult to grasp?
I'm not going to respond to this to much. This is just more of your typical, "I'm on my soap box so listen and let me belittle you too for the sake of it.". Tells me all I need to know about you.

As I've said many many times, I don't do any of that stuff. Besides a rare compliment, I'd say everything I do at work I'd never have to worry about. Of course because I say I don't necessarily see a hug and such as sexual harassment then I must be a sexual harassing perv. Amirite?
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Last edited by SSJPhenom : 12-09-2017 at 02:43 PM.
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