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  #1  
Old 12-27-2017, 08:32 AM
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Default How being looked at as the third Brand is hurting NXT

Everyday since NXT as become what it is today, all i heard or read about when somebody gets called up to the main roster is how they screwed up the character or how they didn't push the guy the same way they did in NXT. How this guy was a main event star in NXT and he's been booked to look like any other guys on the main roster. That's been happening for years now and normally i just respond that NXT doesn't attract the same type of crowds as the main roster does or that not everybody is watch NXT, so when you just continue the same push that you did with a character on NXT, it's not going to translate as well as you think.

These responds pretty much get me heat because NXT fans don't want to blame Vince or the creative staff for the failures of the NXT guys. Even podcasters and dirt sheet writers don't want to see that the main rosters crowds and NXT crowds are 2 totally different type of crowd. But that's not the point of this thread.

The point is that NXT is supposed to be a developmental territory. It'S technically FCW but with better production and facilities and a better TV show seen worldwide. But does the fact that the show is seen worldwide hurt the performers. Personally i feel like it does mostly because since they have to tape of show that's seen worldwide, they have to signs bigger name stars that fans that will attract fans that like watching other style of wrestling like ROH or New Japan, so i takes away from the others guys that don'T have as much experience and could get it by being on the show.

The other problem is with the big indy names stars on NXT is that it create a expectation from the NXT fans when thoses guys get called up on the main roster. They think that since they we're big stars in NXT, they will automatically get the rocket attach to their back on the main roster because of how much work they put in on the indy's before coming to WWE. To quote Jerry Lawler, ''It doesn't matter what you did outside WWE'', and he's right. When you look at the history of WWF/E, a lot of the big star had to prove they could get over before getting the ball and running with it. So why would this be any different in 2017?

When WWE was running OVW, FCW or any of the other developmental territories, did we cares as much about how those guys would get push when called up? no because we couldn'T see them on TV or on the network every week. They didn'T have special event before the big four ppv. So they could pretty much learn how to work WWE style and then they when they got the call to be on the main roster, they felt fresh and we would get invested a lot more into thoses guy. Now, we don't have that anymore because they're on NXT every week and we see them perform on a weekly bases so we think of them as been WWE superstars right off the bat instead of seeing them as developmental guys that are learning how to work the WWE style so when they bring them up. They're not Fresh anymore to a portion of the fans and we bitch about how they screw up their push because we followed them Through their journey.

So that's why i fell that NXT having to much exposure is hurting the talent more then helping them. If they we're a local developmental territory with a local show, when a big name talent like Shinsuke Nakamura or bobby roode would get called up, they would fell fresh because we didn'T see them on NXT before hand and weren't expose to their matches on the show.
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Old 12-27-2017, 09:31 AM
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The fundamental differences in NXT and the main roster revolves mainly around the two different creative visions. If/when Triple H is the one who makes THE final creative decisions, I find it extremely difficult to believe that his WWE will be Vince's WWE in many respects; for instance, if you look at NXT, it's obvious that Triple H and the writers pay more attention to who the fans are invested in, they pay more attention to crowd reactions, they pay more attention to continuity details and general logic than what we frequently see on the main roster. I'm not saying that Triple H won't or doesn't already make mistakes sometimes, that he'll push someone that maybe isn't ready or have the ability, etc. because wrong decisions get made by everyone sometimes; however, I don't see Triple H pushing wrestlers that fans have made no bones about not really being all that into just because he personally wants it to happen. Trips has an ego, but it doesn't remotely compare with Vince because I can genuinely believe that there's a real chance Vince McMahon feels that he knows who fans should or shouldn't invest in that the fans themselves. In Triple H's WWE, Jinder Mahal would not have been WWE Champion, he would not have gone from career jobber to WWE Champion within the span of 5 weeks.

Wrestlers in NXT also have more creative input and freedom than on the main roster, which is a massive deal and goes hand in hand with Trips and Vince being two guys who have different visions. Triple H has a much more organic approach to things, he doesn't want wrestlers reading their lines from scripts, he doesn't want wrestlers to be worried about whether or not they'll have some sort of punishment if they come to him with ideas or concerns about something or voicing disagreement. Vince, on the other hand, wants everyone walking on eggshells around him, he wants as much control over the goings on inside the ring and outside of it, even when it comes to personal lives, as he's legally able to get away with and very, very few wrestlers have the sort of stroke to confidently talk to/with Vince in the way they do with Triple H without fear of some sort of reprisal if they say something that he doesn't like, agree with or is just in a weird mood. I'm not saying that Vince is some demonic fiend, it's just common knowledge that Vince takes the whole alpha male bullshit to an extreme and he doesn't like for people to be at ease.

When you put the different managerial styles together and couple them with their creative choices, then it's little wonder why the overall results of NXT stars going to the main roster is mixed. That's not to say that it's all a difference of creative approach, though that is a hefty factor when you consider that wrestlers can generally only do what they're told, as there are some who may react better with NXT fans than on the main roster and vice versa but it's not something that you can simply generalize. A LOT of it comes down to how they're viewed in the eyes of the men in charge. In NXT, Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn were definitive headliners, Bray Wyatt was about the coolest and most mysterious guy to come along in a long time, Finn Balor and Shinsuke Nakamura had fans eating out of the palms of their hands, Paige was the definitive Anti-Diva. On the main roster, Kevin Owens and Bray Wyatt, Wyatt probably more than any other single NXT guy, have been subjected to stop & go pushes or been offered up as sacrificial lambs to overpaid mercenaries like Brock Lesnar or Attitude Era relics like Goldberg. Wyatt is now looked upon by a lot of fans as the guy you put up against someone when you don't really have anything else for them and that's a damn shame. Balor and Nakamura have been reduced to just being guys on the roster because Vince isn't a fan or, allegedly, says that they aren't over despite all evidence to the contrary. Paige didn't act snotty or engage in petty little cat fights in NXT but, more often than not, that's what she's done on the main roster a lot of the time.

If it was simply the fact that the wrestlers of NXT don't connect with fans on the main roster, then Vince could always step in and make changes to the hiring practices and policies in NXT. It's not like there's some deep, fundamental differences between NXT fans and main roster fans, it's not like one side consists of fans who listen to only Christian music while the other side is only into hardcore deth metal. We know that there are LOTS of fans who watch the main roster also watch NXT because they're already familiar with the wrestlers by the time they reach the main roster and have either invested in them or they haven't. Some wrestlers are also brought up from NXT to be useful hands, so I just don't really buy into notion of the audiences of the main roster and NXT being different. I know that Triple H has said it in interviews but do you really expect him to say anything different? We can't say what's in Triple H's mind, of course, but you do know that Triple H has to walk the line, to some degree, just like any other employee; when asked about the differences between NXT and the main roster, you know that Triple H isn't gonna say something like "the main difference is that I have a totally different outlook than Vince does. I'm more interested in making things as good for the fans as I can by doing my best by them and by the talent than catering to an audience of one and expecting fans to just put up with it." Triple H has a complicated relationship with Vince and Triple H CAN'T just toss Vince under the bus anymore than anyone else working for him can and expect to keep his job; it's all the more complicated because Triple H is married to his only daughter and is the father of Vince's three granddaughters. Even though they have a professional relationship, you just know that there are times that Triple H wants to just go off on Vince because they're also family, and he probably does at times to some degree because working together or not, family get on each other's nerves sometimes and that's just a cold hard fact of life no matter what.
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  #3  
Old 12-27-2017, 10:21 AM
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The problem lies with the creative team and how inept they've become with their inability to get anyone over in today's WWE. They're lazy. When all of these huge stars come up from NXT, creative does nothing to introduce them to the main roster audience. The new calls ups arrive and try to thrive off the popularity in NXT.

If you really want to get down to it, NXT has simply become way more than a developmental league. NXT writers listen to their audiences. They don't push a certain superstar because he has a great look. They push talent and guys who are the most over. That's a problem on the main roster. So much so, when these NXT stars show up on the main roster, it's a downgrade. That shouldnt be the case but it is a fact. Creative needs to find out why these guys succeeded in NXT and use that on the main roster.
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  #4  
Old 12-27-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Jack-Hammer View Post
The fundamental differences in NXT and the main roster revolves mainly around the two different creative visions. If/when Triple H is the one who makes THE final creative decisions, I find it extremely difficult to believe that his WWE will be Vince's WWE in many respects; for instance, if you look at NXT, it's obvious that Triple H and the writers pay more attention to who the fans are invested in, they pay more attention to crowd reactions, they pay more attention to continuity details and general logic than what we frequently see on the main roster. I'm not saying that Triple H won't or doesn't already make mistakes sometimes, that he'll push someone that maybe isn't ready or have the ability, etc. because wrong decisions get made by everyone sometimes; however, I don't see Triple H pushing wrestlers that fans have made no bones about not really being all that into just because he personally wants it to happen. Trips has an ego, but it doesn't remotely compare with Vince because I can genuinely believe that there's a real chance Vince McMahon feels that he knows who fans should or shouldn't invest in that the fans themselves. In Triple H's WWE, Jinder Mahal would not have been WWE Champion, he would not have gone from career jobber to WWE Champion within the span of 5 weeks.

Wrestlers in NXT also have more creative input and freedom than on the main roster, which is a massive deal and goes hand in hand with Trips and Vince being two guys who have different visions. Triple H has a much more organic approach to things, he doesn't want wrestlers reading their lines from scripts, he doesn't want wrestlers to be worried about whether or not they'll have some sort of punishment if they come to him with ideas or concerns about something or voicing disagreement. Vince, on the other hand, wants everyone walking on eggshells around him, he wants as much control over the goings on inside the ring and outside of it, even when it comes to personal lives, as he's legally able to get away with and very, very few wrestlers have the sort of stroke to confidently talk to/with Vince in the way they do with Triple H without fear of some sort of reprisal if they say something that he doesn't like, agree with or is just in a weird mood. I'm not saying that Vince is some demonic fiend, it's just common knowledge that Vince takes the whole alpha male bullshit to an extreme and he doesn't like for people to be at ease.

When you put the different managerial styles together and couple them with their creative choices, then it's little wonder why the overall results of NXT stars going to the main roster is mixed. That's not to say that it's all a difference of creative approach, though that is a hefty factor when you consider that wrestlers can generally only do what they're told, as there are some who may react better with NXT fans than on the main roster and vice versa but it's not something that you can simply generalize. A LOT of it comes down to how they're viewed in the eyes of the men in charge. In NXT, Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn were definitive headliners, Bray Wyatt was about the coolest and most mysterious guy to come along in a long time, Finn Balor and Shinsuke Nakamura had fans eating out of the palms of their hands, Paige was the definitive Anti-Diva. On the main roster, Kevin Owens and Bray Wyatt, Wyatt probably more than any other single NXT guy, have been subjected to stop & go pushes or been offered up as sacrificial lambs to overpaid mercenaries like Brock Lesnar or Attitude Era relics like Goldberg. Wyatt is now looked upon by a lot of fans as the guy you put up against someone when you don't really have anything else for them and that's a damn shame. Balor and Nakamura have been reduced to just being guys on the roster because Vince isn't a fan or, allegedly, says that they aren't over despite all evidence to the contrary. Paige didn't act snotty or engage in petty little cat fights in NXT but, more often than not, that's what she's done on the main roster a lot of the time.

If it was simply the fact that the wrestlers of NXT don't connect with fans on the main roster, then Vince could always step in and make changes to the hiring practices and policies in NXT. It's not like there's some deep, fundamental differences between NXT fans and main roster fans, it's not like one side consists of fans who listen to only Christian music while the other side is only into hardcore deth metal. We know that there are LOTS of fans who watch the main roster also watch NXT because they're already familiar with the wrestlers by the time they reach the main roster and have either invested in them or they haven't. Some wrestlers are also brought up from NXT to be useful hands, so I just don't really buy into notion of the audiences of the main roster and NXT being different. I know that Triple H has said it in interviews but do you really expect him to say anything different? We can't say what's in Triple H's mind, of course, but you do know that Triple H has to walk the line, to some degree, just like any other employee; when asked about the differences between NXT and the main roster, you know that Triple H isn't gonna say something like "the main difference is that I have a totally different outlook than Vince does. I'm more interested in making things as good for the fans as I can by doing my best by them and by the talent than catering to an audience of one and expecting fans to just put up with it." Triple H has a complicated relationship with Vince and Triple H CAN'T just toss Vince under the bus anymore than anyone else working for him can and expect to keep his job; it's all the more complicated because Triple H is married to his only daughter and is the father of Vince's three granddaughters. Even though they have a professional relationship, you just know that there are times that Triple H wants to just go off on Vince because they're also family, and he probably does at times to some degree because working together or not, family get on each other's nerves sometimes and that's just a cold hard fact of life no matter what.
I have to disagree somewhat about HHH having a different vision compare to Vince. In a interview, HHH said that it's harder to book the main roster compare to NXT because they can't please everybody because of are large the fan base is compared to NXT.

The thing is NXT is comprise of more smart fans or fans of the Indy scenes. Just look at the the ticket sales for the survivor series weekend. If you believe what Meltzer reported, nxt:war games was the event that sold the less amount of tickets out of all four events during the weekend. Because NXT type of booking isn't connected with fans outside the 18 to 49 demographic and HHH knows it so when he going to get the run the wrestling aspect of wwe, he will booked it the same way that Vince does because it's a proven successful way of doing this.

NXT works for the demo it's targeting but because that demo is putting it on a pedestal, the performers are going to fail if they don't look or feel the same way they did in the small pound that is NXT. We forget that NXT exist to TRAIN those performers so that they can work the WWE style of wrestling and drop all the bad thing they learn doing the Indy style of wrestling. The cream will always rise to the top even with bad booking. I feel like they should focus more on making them ready for any type of crowd and the wwe schedule and less on pleasing the NXT crowd.
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:33 AM
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NXT is great platform. For example in 2000s people like Balor, Charlotte, Sasha and others would either come from different company or FCW and be miss used because

a) nobody would heard for them
b) gimmicks they had would be scraped from start and they would start with new ones
c) wouldnt probably be on the same level because you wouldnt have guys like Joe(he would probably go straight to main roster) there to boost star power and work with more inexperienced talents and overall learning curve would not be that high

Now when somebody comes from NXT to main roster its instantly big deal. You know name, gimmick and you know if its good or bad based on his/hers performance at NXT that you watch on weekly basis and even has personal PPVs. When they come fans are already cheering or booing and already build a bond to certain characters. That you didnt had in 2000s and its much better now.

Trouble is, fans then expect a lot. Not every guy is Balor to win main title on his first PPV. Not every girl is Charlotte and Asuka with their personal streaks. Lots of them are midcard potentials at best, lots of them are indeed mishandled and lots of them can either flourish(like for example Alexa) or even deteriorate(like Bayley) when you throw them into main event water and expect them to sink or swim. So that is why when they sink due to any of that reasons fans get mad. Its a double edged sword. Has nothing to due to exposure(more exposure cant be bad) just with the fact that fans rage when character they like is mishandled. And that would probably happen with or without that NXT.
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:28 AM
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Another problem is as fans, we want the people we like pushed to the top now, not later. Shinsuke hasn't been on roster for a year yet, ditto for Roode. Balor has been there for two years, and most of one of those years he was hurt.

Not everyone gets the rocket to the top treatment. Sheamus and Lesnar are two guys who went from debut to world champion within a few weeks to months. Edge debuted in 1997 and won his first world title in 2006. Edge was in WWE for nearly 10 years before he became a main eventer.

Granted, Edge debuted in his 20s. Roode, Balor, Nakamura, and Samoa Joe are all in their mid to late 30s. They're all wrestling on a potentially shorted clock and all have heightened risk for career threatening injuries. If you're going to do something with them, it has to happen sooner than later.

So yes, it's bad that ppv main events are being tied up with already over part timers Shane, Kurt, Triple H, and Cena all main evented Survivor Series, a ppv where an NXt guy like Bray Wyatt wasn't even on the card.

Wyatt has been in WWE for nearly five years, just over half the time it took Edge to win his first world title. He's defeated at WrestleMania for each appearance. Is his career just over? Didn't he just turn 30?

There needs to be patience. This is the year of Lesnar, which should be coming to a close by March. Raw will have a world title on weekly TV and every ppv again. There's about to be much more space at the top that is non-existent at this time.

Yes, booking of top NXT stars is generally ham fisted. Patience is required. If jobber Jinder can go from rags to riches, imagine what happens when the pull the trigger on a talented wrestler like Roode, Nakamura, or Joe. 2018 will hopefully be more interesting for all the recent NXT alums.
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Old 12-27-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by wrestlingmasters55 View Post
I have to disagree somewhat about HHH having a different vision compare to Vince. In a interview, HHH said that it's harder to book the main roster compare to NXT because they can't please everybody because of are large the fan base is compared to NXT.
http://www.pwmania.com/rumors-on-tri...er-suspect-wwe
It's obvious their visions are on the complete and opposite sides of the wrestling spectrum. If you look at how well NXT listens to their audience and compare that to WWE, it's quite clear their views are different. It's apparent when a gimmick as ridiculous as Rusev Day gains momentum and WWE doesn't capitalize on it. Vince rarely listens to what his audience wants. He's stubborn and it's fairly obvious.
Quote:
The thing is NXT is comprise of more smart fans or fans of the Indy scenes. Just look at the the ticket sales for the survivor series weekend. If you believe what Meltzer reported, nxt:war games was the event that sold the less amount of tickets out of all four events during the weekend.
Are you sure that has nothing to do with NXT being a developmental league and not having a major television deal to advertise to millions of people? NXT is doing just fine for a promotion that relies solely on word of mouth and the network to advertise their events.
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Because NXT type of booking isn't connected with fans outside the 18 to 49 demographic and HHH knows it
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There are plenty of stars younger kids and women can relate to. The problem lies with WWE's inability to write decent storylines so someone like Bayley has a chance to shine on the main roster. Bayley should be on top of the women's division right now. But no, she's a joke.
Quote:
so when he going to get the run the wrestling aspect of wwe he will booked it the same way that Vince does because it's a proven successful way of doing this.
Vince has proven successful in the past no doubt. He's a genius. Steve Austin is the most over star in wrestling's history because the fans wanted him. Rocky Miavia was complete shit until Vince took notice and turned him into what would become one of the greatest talkers of all time. Point being, you have to listen to your audience. He isn't doing anything of the like currently. Braun Strowman is the most over star on the roster right now yet he isn't being groomed for that top Wrestlemania spot. I can't help but think Triple H would utilize that.

Quote:
NXT works for the demo it's targeting but because that demo is putting it on a pedestal, the performers are going to fail if they don't look or feel the same way they did in the small pound that is NXT. We forget that NXT exist to TRAIN those performers so that they can work the WWE style of wrestling and drop all the bad thing they learn doing the Indy style of wrestling. The cream will always rise to the top even with bad booking.
Bad booking can make or break you, no matter how great you are. Just like good booking can make or break you no matter how bad you are. Once again, look at someone like Braun Strowman. When he debuted he was complete trash. He still isn't all that great. But with some damn good monstrous booking, he's the greatest thing on Monday nights. While booking isn't always everything, it does help to have the booking team behind you.
Quote:
I feel like they should focus more on making them ready for any type of crowd and the wwe schedule and less on pleasing the NXT crowd.
What exactly is it that NXT is doing to make them over with their audience and not WWE's main audience? They learn promos. They developed their characters. They learn where the cameras are and are pretty successful in the ring. Are you sure the two booking teams aren't just completely different here?
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Old 12-27-2017, 03:18 PM
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One week you suggest that Impact disappears and now you are suggesting that NXT basically does the same. Your hatred for money is palpable.

Not every new wrestler makes it big. Not now, not ever. Whether they came from a rival organization, the Indys, a small wrestling school, NXT, or nowhere, not everyone is going to make it. You don't close down one of the top draws of your developing network and a possible additional tv revenue stream because The Ascension just aren't as good on the main roster.

NXT grads should not be expected to make it to the top of the card. Certainly not very fast. Vince is traditionally very loyal to the guys that have worked a long time and continue to want to work. If Tye "who in their right mind thought this guy could get very over to the masses with a number gimmick" Dillinger were to show up out of nowhere, would he be more successful? I highly doubt it. Sure some guys benefited from basically skipping NXT (Reigns, Strowman, Styles) but NXT has at least given some main roster guys attention and time to develop in to something. Taking that away would kill some of that before these guys ever have a chance to fail.

NXT benefits the overall WWE product.
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Old 12-27-2017, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by George Steele's Barber View Post
One week you suggest that Impact disappears and now you are suggesting that NXT basically does the same. Your hatred for money is palpable.

Not every new wrestler makes it big. Not now, not ever. Whether they came from a rival organization, the Indys, a small wrestling school, NXT, or nowhere, not everyone is going to make it. You don't close down one of the top draws of your developing network and a possible additional tv revenue stream because The Ascension just aren't as good on the main roster.

NXT grads should not be expected to make it to the top of the card. Certainly not very fast. Vince is traditionally very loyal to the guys that have worked a long time and continue to want to work. If Tye "who in their right mind thought this guy could get very over to the masses with a number gimmick" Dillinger were to show up out of nowhere, would he be more successful? I highly doubt it. Sure some guys benefited from basically skipping NXT (Reigns, Strowman, Styles) but NXT has at least given some main roster guys attention and time to develop in to something. Taking that away would kill some of that before these guys ever have a chance to fail.

NXT benefits the overall WWE product.
First of all, please find me the place where i mention that i wanted NXT to close anywhere in my thread because i sure don't see where you mention that at all. I feel like you read one phrase or just the title of a thread and then don't bother reading the rest of the thread and just jump to conclusion because it serve your narrative.

Secondly, while i don't want NXT to close down, i'm just mentioning how the success of the brand with a certain group of fans is hurting certain talents on the roster because they get put in a pedestal way quicker then when you had FCW or other developmental territories that were more local. i get that they make money by doing it this way but at what cost.

It's easy to say that NXT listen to what fans wants and WWE doesn't but look at the crowd difference between the 2 brand, One is mostly comprise of adult 18 to 49 that's they main target demographic, sure's they have kids going to those shows but there not the majority so it's easier for them to listen to the fans when you only have to focus on one group, WWE is a whole different ball game, they're not a predominant demographic that's the majority of fans, so they have to listen to what everybody wants not just one group because you need to please as many peoples as you can and like the famous saying goes, ''you can't please everyone''. So that's why it seem like they don't listen to the fans when in reality they do and they just push whoever is connecting with the most group of fans.

Finally, now that i explain my whole thread, i just want to know, where in my original thread did i mention that i wanted NXT to close because unlike IMPACT, which i did say that i wanted them to close because let's face it, at this time, it wouldn't be a big lost for anybody and it would save a lot of money to anthem if they just close shop and cut their lost, NXT is a profitable product that actually make some money and i want to stay around, i just wonder if having it as the third brand help or hurts the talent in the long run? So please next time, read the whole thing before replying to a thread
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Old 12-27-2017, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by wrestlingmasters55 View Post
It's easy to say that NXT listen to what fans wants and WWE doesn't but look at the crowd difference between the 2 brand, One is mostly comprise of adult 18 to 49 that's they main target demographic, sure's they have kids going to those shows but there not the majority so it's easier for them to listen to the fans when you only have to focus on one group, WWE is a whole different ball game, they're not a predominant demographic that's the majority of fans, so they have to listen to what everybody wants not just one group because you need to please as many peoples as you can and like the famous saying goes, ''you can't please everyone''. So that's why it seem like they don't listen to the fans when in reality they do and they just push whoever is connecting with the most group of fans.
I've seen you write this out a couple times today in various threads and it pains me to see someone base their opinion off something that isn't factual. Where exactly are you getting this info from?

From the Wrestling Observer Newsletter in 2013...
Quote:
The current WWE audience by age looks like this – 22% is between the ages of 2-17, 23% is between the ages of 18-34, 26% is between the ages of 35-49 and 30% is age 50 or older.
That's almost 50 percent of WWE's total audience. 18-49 is nearly the majority.
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Last edited by #hamler : 12-27-2017 at 06:25 PM.
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