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  #1  
Old 09-06-2009, 03:59 PM
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Default Week 6: SavageTaker -versus- IC 25

Who Killed the WCW? WCW internal forces or Turner Broadcastingís merge?

IC 25 is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific
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  #2  
Old 09-06-2009, 07:32 PM
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SavageTaker, it's going to be a pleasure debating with you. You're a terrific poster and someone I consider an e-friend.

In the interest of a challenge, I am going to debate that the Time Warner merger is, in fact, what led to the demise of WCW.
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  #3  
Old 09-08-2009, 06:53 PM
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I want to once again apologize to my opponent and judges for being so late for this debate. I donít want to go into detail about what happened, but I will say that something came up and I couldnít get in here at the time I told IC I would be here. But I am here now and thatís what matters. I do want to wish luck to my opponent and hope to have a wonderful debate with him. Now, I do respect IC but I am going to take upon the task of proving my side of the debate to be the correct one and his wrong one. He did decide to choose that the Time Warner merger is the reason that WCW died, but unfortunately he made the wrong decision because the real reason why WCW died was because of its internal forces.

1.) WCW was just unorganized and many people who worked there during the 90ís have stated that it was a train wreck and a nightmare working there. There was just no organization set in place and there have been countless people who have said that at times, shows were being written while the show was going on. I also remember Mean Gene once saying that at times he would ask Eric Bischoff what they would be doing 10 minutes before the show went on the air, and Eric had no idea what they would be doing. WCW has been described as a nightmare to work for and the fact that it wasnít organized internally is one of the things that led to its demise. But thatís just one thing; there are other things that I will explain throughout my post.

2.) Talent getting payed ridiculous amounts of money is my second reason why WCW really died. And this was usually the top tier talents that were getting payed a ton of money. Now, while guys like Hogan for example did help the company tremendously, that just doesnít mean that he or anyone else working there at the time should be given whatever amount of money they wanted just because WCW had Ted Turnerís billions to spend. They gave wrestlers a lot of money, more than necessary, without even thinking about the future. What would they have done if all of a sudden Ted files for Chapter 11? Instead of being financially secure for anything that could have happened, they decided to just give away millions and millions of dollars, which leads me to my next pointÖ


3.) The company was losing a plethora of money during its last couple of years because of the fact that they were paying talent ridiculous amounts of money like I mentioned in the above paragraph and because of other reasons such as having high production values, running a 2 hour show (Nitro)(later a 3 hour show and then back to 2 hour show if Iím not mistaken), also having another show in Thunder, and thatís just naming a few reasons. This all goes back to what I said about them just wasting money, and a lot of it, just because they had Tedís billions to back them up. But in their last couple of years they were just losing millions after millions per year. This is attributed to several reasons which I will explain later on in my post, but it was because they were heavily papering their shows since there were a lot of people that no longer were paying to attend and because their ratings and pay per view buys decreased drastically because of like I said, reasons which I will explain later on in my post.

4.) I guess I better explain why they were losing millions and millions of dollars per year and that reason is because of their inability to create new stars/main eventers. After a while, the product just became stale because it was basically the same guys doing the same things over and over and over. The only guy that became a main eventer that wasnít already a huge name in wrestling was Goldberg, but thatís just one guy. Instead of creating the new main eventers, they relied on already established and older wrestlers, which isnít a bad thing for wrestling companies to do at first, but they relied on them for everything which like I said, just made their product a stale product after a while. Since the product did stale, it lead to people no longer really wanting to see WCW and they lost a plethora of fans because they couldnít create new stars.

5.) My fifth reason for what really killed WCW was the way that the talents contracts were structured. Simply put, the inmates were running the asylum in WCW. Some wrestlers had creative control in their contracts, and when you give a wrestler creative control you can never expect for good things to happen. If say for example, Hogan wants to win a match that he was originally booked to lose then he can invoke his creative control and can make it so he wins the match. Thatís one of the major reasons in my opinion, why WCW couldnít create new main eventers: because if a wrestler with creative control didnít want to lose to another wrestler without creative control, then they wouldnít lost therefore the inability to create new main eventers as stated on reason #4.

Those are all my reasons why I think the internal forces in WCW is what really killed WCW. I will eagerly await my opponentís rebuttal and hope to have a wonderful debate. Best of luck to you IC!
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  #4  
Old 09-08-2009, 09:58 PM
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Author's disclaimer: The following post is written without reading the post made by my opponent. The goal here is to assert the factual reasons why Turner's Broadcasting Merge caused the death of WCW, not the internal forces that wrestling fans blame the world on. I will gladly rebutt ST's posts after making my assertions quite clear.

The amazing thing about this debate is that I took the side of Turner's Merge as the death of WCW as a way to challenge myself. I figured "as the home debator, taking the side of WCW's internal forces is the easy choice! So I will go with the hard choice!" Lo and behold, through my research, I actually picked the correct side of the debate. And it isn't even close.

Section One - How Turner's Merge Killed WCW

Wrestling fans regard the time period from September 1998 - 2001 as the downturn of WCW. Booking became messy, WWF returned to stature, stars left, etc. That is all well and good, but even still, WCW hung in there for 3 years of mediocre booking. And lord knows WWF/E has had more than its share of 3+ year booking cold spells. More on that later.

The simple fact is that, in late 2000, Ted Turner was in a position to sell WCW to any one of several interested buyers. Eric Bischoff himself, working with a Media company called Fusient, also put in a nice bid and was set to buy and then run WCW. Ted Turner was prepared to make the sale, and even Eric says on "The Rise and Fall of WCW" that he flew in expecting the deal to get done.

As the AOL Time Warner merger drew nearer, a member of Fusient dropped out. The reason the backer dropped had ZERO to do with booking decisions, in-ring products, or development of new stars. It was a simple case of a backer deciding to spend their money elsewhere.

Ted Turner had turned control of the Turner Broadcasting division over to Jamie Kellner in the wake of the merger, and Kellner stated that professional wrestling was out of line with the image the Turner Broadcasting Family was trying to portray, especially with the AOL merger placing Mr. Turner ever so increasingly in the public eye. Kellner decided that, to save the face of the broadcasting conglomerate in the eye of the public, professional wrestling had to be removed from TBS and TNT. As a result, Nitro and Thunder were cancelled, not because of booking, but because of the owners taking things in a new direction.

With no TV time and no prime time exposure (which, as you may recall from the WCW DVD was the main reason Bischoff was able to get WCW to be competitive in the first place), there was no place to go, and Kellner sold the assets of WCW to the highest bidder...Vince McMahon.

Folks, make no mistake - WCW's demise was the result of a business decision. People with billions of dollars made this call, and they did so with no regard for the in-ring product.

Let's hop in the time machine and take it a step further. It's been well documented - most notably in Bischoff's book "Controversy Creates Cash," that a major reason for the decline of WCW was the fact that, following the initial Turner / Time Warner merger (pre-AOL), the execs from Time Warner told Eric Bischoff to create a family friendly program in line with the rest of the programming. It was the influence of the executives who owned WCW as a result of the merger who forced Eric's hand and, in turn, made WCW's product grow stale.

When those same TIme Warner execs looked at a balance sheet and forced Eric to slash budgets, he could no longer compete.

Section Two - Why Internal Forces were NOT the Cause

My opponent with likely tell you about bad booking decisions, failure to promote young stars, etc. That isn't the case, folks. Sure, it's a reason their product got stale, and perhaps it helped empower Vince (or emboldened him) to make the purchase, but aside from that, it didn't end the company.

As I mentioned before, WWF/E has gone through eras of poor booking. It sure didn't kill the company, did it? Why not?

WWF/E, for as long as any of us can remember, has had one single owner. One boss. One man in charge. Vince McMahon.

That's right - consistent leadership. Eric Bischoff received different rules from different bosses and execs as a result of the merger. Despite a downturn, Vince McMahon remained the leader of WWF and didn't have to answer to people at Time Warner or anywhere. Yet another reason the merger was a bigger reason for the failure of WCW - the removal of consistent, top-level executive leadership in WCW after the merge. Prior to the merge, when Eric worked with Ted Turner, they succeeded. He had money, he had creative freedom. The merger ended that.

The "lack of new stars" argument is laughable. Sure, they'd made some errors, but one of the final PPV's prior to the end of WCW was "New Blood Rising," and young stars were getting the rub from top guys. But the booking and the in-ring stuff was a mere footnote to the corporate politics that caused WCW to lose it's air time and get sold to the competition.

Folks, without even looking at my opponent's initial post, I feel I have outlined two very clear assertions as to why the death of WCW was a result of Turner's merger with Time Warner, and eventually, AOL. I will rebutt my opponent next.
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  #5  
Old 09-08-2009, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SavageTaker View Post
1.) WCW was just unorganized and many people who worked there during the 90ís have stated that it was a train wreck and a nightmare working there.!
No business is ever "just unorganized." There is a reason it is disorganized. In the case of WCW, inconsistent leadership at the top as a result of the Turner / Tme Warner merger created an environment of stifled management and inmates running the asylum. The direct cause of the lack of consistent top-level executive leadership was the merger.

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Originally Posted by SavageTaker View Post
2.) Talent getting payed ridiculous amounts of money is my second reason why WCW really died. And this was usually the top tier talents that were getting payed a ton of money. Now, while guys like Hogan for example did help the company tremendously, that just doesnít mean that he or anyone else working there at the time should be given whatever amount of money they wanted just because WCW had Ted Turnerís billions to spend.
Turner had about as close to an unlimited supply of money as you can get. Along with Rupert Murdoch, Turner was an unlimitedly powerful media mogul. WCW talent got paid a fraction per year of what Hollywood actors ger paid for one film. The reason this became an issue LATER was because the new executives who took over WCW after the Time Warner merger a) wanted to slash budgets to increase profits and b) felt pro wrestling was out of line with their programming goals.

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Originally Posted by SavageTaker View Post
3.) The company was losing a plethora of money during its last couple of years because of the fact that they were paying talent ridiculous amounts of money like I mentioned in the above paragraph and because of other reasons such as having high production values, running a 2 hour show (Nitro)(later a 3 hour show and then back to 2 hour show if Iím not mistaken), also having another show in Thunder, and thatís just naming a few reasons. This all goes back to what I said about them just wasting money, and a lot of it, just because they had Tedís billions to back them up.
A major reason they started to lose money was because the WWF was able to make the decision to go into a more risky, attitude driven product at a time when there was a demand for that. WCW, or more specifically Eric Bischoff, had his hands tied by post-merger executives who wanted a PG-style show to remain in line with their other broadcasting. Again, merger-driven.

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Originally Posted by SavageTaker View Post
4.) I guess I better explain why they were losing millions and millions of dollars per year and that reason is because of their inability to create new stars/main eventers. After a while, the product just became stale because it was basically the same guys doing the same things over and over and over.
The development of new talent was a minor footnote. The product became stale because Time Warner execs didn't want WCW doing anything risky tat could cause them PR issues. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by SavageTaker View Post
5.) My fifth reason for what really killed WCW was the way that the talents contracts were structured. Simply put, the inmates were running the asylum in WCW. Some wrestlers had creative control in their contracts, and when you give a wrestler creative control you can never expect for good things to happen. If say for example, Hogan wants to win a match that he was originally booked to lose then he can invoke his creative control and can make it so he wins the match. Thatís one of the major reasons in my opinion, why WCW couldnít create new main eventers: because if a wrestler with creative control didnít want to lose to another wrestler without creative control, then they wouldnít lost therefore the inability to create new main eventers as stated on reason #4.
The Hogans and Nashes of the world has nothing to do with why Eric Bischoff's financial backer dropped out of the bid to buy WCW. Had Eric made that purchase, it's possible WCW would still be around today. Who booked the show was irrelevant compared to the fact that the new Time Warner bosses wanted the concept of professional wrestling OFF of their programming. End of story.
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  #6  
Old 09-08-2009, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by IC25 View Post
No business is ever "just unorganized." There is a reason it is disorganized. In the case of WCW, inconsistent leadership at the top as a result of the Turner / Tme Warner merger created an environment of stifled management and inmates running the asylum. The direct cause of the lack of consistent top-level executive leadership was the merger.
You are right about something and that is that inconsistent leadership does result in an unorganized business. However, when it comes to WCW you are wrong in your assertion that WCW was unorganized because of inconsistent leadership. When WCW was at its peak and had Eric Bischoff as the consistent leader, they were still unorganized. Wrestlers who worked during WCW’s peak in the 90’s have gone on the record and stated that it was still a nightmare working there because of how unorganized things were. So, WCW wasn’t unorganized because of inconsistent leadership, because even when they did have a consistent leader they were still unorganized.
Quote:
Turner had about as close to an unlimited supply of money as you can get. Along with Rupert Murdoch, Turner was an unlimitedly powerful media mogul. WCW talent got paid a fraction per year of what Hollywood actors ger paid for one film. The reason this became an issue LATER was because the new executives who took over WCW after the Time Warner merger a) wanted to slash budgets to increase profits and b) felt pro wrestling was out of line with their programming goals.
Turner did/does have unlimited supply of money, but that still doesn’t mean that wrestlers should be paid ridiculous amounts of money. Like I said, what happens if all of a sudden Turner had filed for bankruptcy? Where would Bischoff get the money to pay the wrestlers?

Instead of playing it safe and thinking of all of the things that could have happened, Eric still decided to pay his wrestlers unnecessary amounts of money. This was a reason why WCW died, because they didn’t think of the future and all of the things that could have happened. They paid so much money to their wrestlers and as a result they lost a ton of money because they weren’t making as much money later on because of a stale product…but those wrestlers still had their contracts so he still had to pay them.
Quote:
A major reason they started to lose money was because the WWF was able to make the decision to go into a more risky, attitude driven product at a time when there was a demand for that. WCW, or more specifically Eric Bischoff, had his hands tied by post-merger executives who wanted a PG-style show to remain in line with their other broadcasting. Again, merger-driven.
I disagree. They started losing money because they didn’t want to give the fans something new...it was just the same old guys doing the same old things they were doing before and after a while fans just didn’t want to see that. People wanted to see some fresh blood in the main event and they didn’t get that until it was too late.

So they lost money because they didn’t give fans what they want immediately or as soon as possible therefore people started watching the WWF, which was a fresh product.
Quote:
The development of new talent was a minor footnote. The product became stale because Time Warner execs didn't want WCW doing anything risky tat could cause them PR issues. It's that simple.
Again I disagree. The product didn’t become stale because the Time Warner executives wanted WCW doing nothing that could cause a public relation issues. The product became stale because like I said, it was the same old guys in the main events doing the same things they had previously done. People eventually got tired of seeing Hogan, Nash, e.t.c. and that’s what made the product stale.

They could still have had a fresh product that wouldn’t cause any public relations issues. But instead, they relied on what made them successful initially but since fans already saw that…they thought the product was stale.
Quote:
The Hogans and Nashes of the world has nothing to do with why Eric Bischoff's financial backer dropped out of the bid to buy WCW. Had Eric made that purchase, it's possible WCW would still be around today. Who booked the show was irrelevant compared to the fact that the new Time Warner bosses wanted the concept of professional wrestling OFF of their programming.
Do you know why the new Time Warner bosses wanted to the concept of professional wrestling off of their network?

WCW was LOSING money. They were NOT making a profit at all and that’s probably why they wanted them off, because they weren’t making any money from them because of all of the things wrong internally.

Quote:
End of story.
Not really. If you do respond, I will be responding tomorrow. But it’s not the end of story just yet.
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  #7  
Old 09-09-2009, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
You are right about something and that is that inconsistent leadership does result in an unorganized business. However, when it comes to WCW you are wrong in your assertion that WCW was unorganized because of inconsistent leadership. When WCW was at its peak and had Eric Bischoff as the consistent leader, they were still unorganized. Wrestlers who worked during WCWís peak in the 90ís have gone on the record and stated that it was still a nightmare working there because of how unorganized things were. So, WCW wasnít unorganized because of inconsistent leadership, because even when they did have a consistent leader they were still unorganized.
This is a half-truth. For a long while, Eric Bischoff was a consistent leader and WCW was organized AND successful. Generally from 1996 - 1999. Maybe he wasn't terribly professional, but he was at least consistent, and people knew that he was in control.

The real downturn in organization came when Bischoff started getting mixed messages from his NEW bosses. You see, when Turner kept his hands off the wrestling and empowered Eric, things ran fairly well. Not GREAT by any stretch, but serviceable. I firmly believe that Eric had plans in place to compete, but the new managers and execs kept changing the rules on Eric, and that filtered down.

Quote:
Turner did/does have unlimited supply of money, but that still doesnít mean that wrestlers should be paid ridiculous amounts of money. Like I said, what happens if all of a sudden Turner had filed for bankruptcy? Where would Bischoff get the money to pay the wrestlers?
Businesses don't generally operate in fear of Chapter 11. Professional sports teams pay huge sums of money to their athletes - WCW did the same. It's really not terribly different. Had Turner filed for backruptcy, WCW likely would have folded anyway.

Quote:
Instead of playing it safe and thinking of all of the things that could have happened, Eric still decided to pay his wrestlers unnecessary amounts of money. This was a reason why WCW died, because they didnít think of the future and all of the things that could have happened.
That spending was the reason WCW became viable in the first place. They were not remotely competitive with the WWF until Eric came in and dropped big bills. Besides, AOL Time Warner ended up having to pay those wrestler contracts anyway, so that was a footnote. WCW died because the newly merged company didn't want to be associated with the product.

Quote:
I disagree. They started losing money because they didnít want to give the fans something new...
Untrue. WCW did want to run angles that rivaled the WWF, and wanted to go into the risky, attitude based marketing, but Time Warner vetoed it because it would have been out of line with their more "wholesome, family programming" and the advertisers they were trying to attract.

Quote:
So they lost money because they didnít give fans what they want immediately or as soon as possible therefore people started watching the WWF, which was a fresh product.
Many fans were still switching back and forth between the shows anyway. WCW still had major stars and the New Blood / Millionaires Club angle was getting attention. People started watching WWF because they offered a more attitude driven product, whereas WCW's hands were tied.

Quote:
Again I disagree. The product didnít become stale because the Time Warner executives wanted WCW doing nothing that could cause a public relation issues. The product became stale because like I said, it was the same old guys in the main events doing the same things they had previously done. People eventually got tired of seeing Hogan, Nash, e.t.c. and thatís what made the product stale.
You're trying to disagree with facts. Here's a direct quote from some of my research:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia page, "History of World Championship Wrestling
Meanwhile, Time Warner had bought out Turner's empire in 1996, including WCW. Turner was personally faithful to WCW regardless of whether it was losing him money because an earlier incarnation of the promotion had helped establish Turner's first television station, WTBS. However, Time Warner did not share his loyalty especially when accounts showed that WCW was losing between $12Ė$17 million a year at this point (and an astonishing $60 million in 2000 alone), but Turner was still the single largest Time Warner shareholder, so WCW continued to operate at his behest. When AOL merged with Time Warner in 2000, Turner was effectively forced out of his own empire.

The new AOL Time Warner finally had the power to auction off WCW, which they saw as an unnecessary drain on resources. In late 2000, Bischoff and a group of private investors, calling themselves Fusient Media Ventures, inquired about buying WCW, and reports indicated that a deal was in place. However, Fusient backed out when Turner networks head Jamie Kellner formally cancelled all WCW programming from its television networks. With no network on which to air its programming, WCW was of little value to Fusient, whose offer depended on being able to continue to air WCW programming on the Turner networks, despite the fact that WCW, according to Bischoff in his book, had received offers from FOX and NBC.
Ted Turner wanted WCW to continue running, but when his voice was silenced in the wake of the merger, his support for WCW was overruled. Plain and simple, end of story. Had the merger not occured, Turner would have continued to run WCW.

Quote:
Do you know why the new Time Warner bosses wanted to the concept of professional wrestling off of their network?

WCW was LOSING money. They were NOT making a profit at all and thatís probably why they wanted them off, because they werenít making any money from them because of all of the things wrong internally.
Time Warner is a HUGE media conglomerate. They have loads of business units that lose money. The reason why they were so hasty to separate themselves from WCW was not just the cost reason, but also the fact that they didn't want to make the effort to rescue a product they felt was contrary to their missions and targets.

Example - Turner Classic Movies. That station still runs to this day, even with the Time Warner acquisition. Do you know about TCM? It's Turners nostalgic nod to classic films, and it shows old films without commercials. So TCM makes little or no revenue, and costs money to broadcast. But TCM is in line with the Time Warner mission, so it stays, despite being a non-revenue generating entity.

Had Time Warner had the mission of a Spike TV, rest assured they would have tried to rescue WCW.
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  #8  
Old 09-10-2009, 09:11 PM
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This is a half-truth.
No…It’s the full truth.
Quote:
For a long while, Eric Bischoff was a consistent leader
So now you are agreeing that there was a time that WCW had a consistent leader, even though you stated otherwise earlier.
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and WCW was organized
And this is where I completely disagree. You say they were organized…but where they really? The answer would be no they weren’t. There have been guys who have done interviews and stated that backstage, things weren’t how some would expect. Like I stated earlier, Mean Gene did an interview a while back, like a few years ago, and I vividly remember him saying that sometimes he would ask Eric 10 minutes before Nitro what they were doing for that nights show and Eric Bischoff had no idea. Then there have been other wrestlers and people who have worked for the company that have said that shows were being booked WHILE the shows were going on. IC…please explain to me how WCW was organized…I am dying to see your explanation.
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AND successful. Generally from 1996 - 1999.
And this is probably the only thing I’ll agree with you on. But success does not equal good organization…which WCW didn’t have (good organization).
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Maybe he wasn't terribly professional,
Maybe he was and maybe he wasn’t. Who knows?
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but he was at least consistent, and people knew that he was in control.
I already know that you agree with me on this.
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The real downturn in organization came when Bischoff started getting mixed messages from his NEW bosses.
I would have to disagree with this. The downturn came when WWF was rising in popularity because WCW was just re-doing things like the multiple re-incarnations of the nWo for instance. WWF was putting out a great fresh product while WCW was just stale and people were just bored of seeing the same damn things over and over and over…and over.
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You see, when Turner kept his hands off the wrestling and empowered Eric, things ran fairly well. Not GREAT by any stretch, but serviceable. I firmly believe that Eric had plans in place to compete, but the new managers and execs kept changing the rules on Eric, and that filtered down.
Here is the thing though…WCW was doing great business for a nice period of time and he was allowed to do what he wanted as long as he was making a profit. But once the company starting losing money because of his booking of the shows, the higher-ups had to step in and do something about it because they were losing millions and millions of dollars. What else would you have expected them to do? Just sit there and see the millions go down the drain because of WCW?
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Businesses don't generally operate in fear of Chapter 11.
Fair enough.
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Professional sports teams pay huge sums of money to their athletes - WCW did the same. It's really not terribly different. Had Turner filed for backruptcy, WCW likely would have folded anyway.
Interesting example/analogy…but there’s just one problem. When have we heard of sports like Football (American style) or Basketball losing popularity? I don’t really watch sports but I never recall anything like that happening (those sports losing popularity). But then there’s professional wrestling. We KNOW that there have been times when wrestling hasn’t been so popular and has actually lost popularity. Incase which you don’t quite understand what I am saying then let me give you examples. During the Hogan Era, the WWF boomed in business but once the New Generation era happened, they lost some popularity. But after the New Generation, the Attitude Era arrived and a new boom period happened. But what happened after the Attitude Era? Wrestling again lost some of its popularity.

I hope you see what I am trying to say. Basically, I’ve never heard of Football suddenly losing its popularity…so a lot of people watch it and Football generates a lot of money so they can do things like pay their athletes millions because they will always have a lot of money. But in wrestling it’s not really the same because there have been times when it has lost its popularity and hasn’t made as much money as it did in one point.
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That spending was the reason WCW became viable in the first place. They were not remotely competitive with the WWF until Eric came in and dropped big bills. Besides, AOL Time Warner ended up having to pay those wrestler contracts anyway, so that was a footnote. WCW died because the newly merged company didn't want to be associated with the product.
WCW died because of things like them spending ridiculous amounts of money and not making a profit for a couple of years. They were LOSING money and a lot of it. How can you expect for a company to go on much longer if they are losing millions of dollars a year? That’s what killed WCW, not the merger of Time Warner and later on AOL, it was them not being able to make a profit and like I’ve told you several times already, them losing millions of dollars.
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Untrue. WCW did want to run angles that rivaled the WWF, and wanted to go into the risky, attitude based marketing, but Time Warner vetoed it because it would have been out of line with their more "wholesome, family programming" and the advertisers they were trying to attract.
What I meant by that was that they were still doing things like still using the nWo and having the same top guys they had years before in the main events. Fans wanted to see something other than that and WCW just didn’t really do anything new, with the exception of a few things but in my opinion it just wasn’t enough for fans to get interested in them again.
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Many fans were still switching back and forth between the shows anyway. WCW still had major stars and the New Blood / Millionaires Club angle was getting attention. People started watching WWF because they offered a more attitude driven product, whereas WCW's hands were tied.
So what if WCW had top stars? It’s not like they had new top stars that were fresh and new. They were still using the same top stars that they were using in previous years…so people thought them STILL being in the main events was stale even if they were working with the “New Blood” which for the most part didn’t even consist of guys who would be future main eventers.
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You're trying to disagree with facts. Here's a direct quote from some of my research:
Let’s see the quote.
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Ted Turner wanted WCW to continue running, but when his voice was silenced in the wake of the merger, his support for WCW was overruled. Plain and simple, end of story. Had the merger not occured, Turner would have continued to run WCW.
Where in that quote did it say that Turner wanted to keep WCW running? It said he was personally faithful to them…so he kept them running out of loyalty because they helped him established his first television station…but he didn’t keep them running because he wanted to like you said he did.
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Time Warner is a HUGE media conglomerate. They have loads of business units that lose money. The reason why they were so hasty to separate themselves from WCW was not just the cost reason, but also the fact that they didn't want to make the effort to rescue a product they felt was contrary to their missions and targets.
Once again…I disagree. They weren’t hasty in separating themselves from WCW at all. They actually gave them a chance to turn things around but they weren’t able because of internal forces and that’s exactly what led to their demise.

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Example - Turner Classic Movies. That station still runs to this day, even with the Time Warner acquisition. Do you know about TCM? It's Turners nostalgic nod to classic films, and it shows old films without commercials. So TCM makes little or no revenue, and costs money to broadcast. But TCM is in line with the Time Warner mission, so it stays, despite being a non-revenue generating entity.
I don’t really know much about TCM but before I actually do say something about it, does running TCM cost them just as many millions as WCW was losing?
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Had Time Warner had the mission of a Spike TV, rest assured they would have tried to rescue WCW.
Rest assured that if the internal forces of WCW didn’t kill it because of the things I said in my first post in this thread, then they would probably still be alive.
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  #9  
Old 09-11-2009, 08:56 AM
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So now you are agreeing that there was a time that WCW had a consistent leader, even though you stated otherwise earlier.
Really? Let's go back to what I stated earlier...

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Originally Posted by IC25, Earlier
Eric Bischoff received different rules from different bosses and execs as a result of the merger. Despite a downturn, Vince McMahon remained the leader of WWF and didn't have to answer to people at Time Warner or anywhere. Yet another reason the merger was a bigger reason for the failure of WCW - the removal of consistent, top-level executive leadership in WCW after the merge. Prior to the merge, when Eric worked with Ted Turner, they succeeded. He had money, he had creative freedom. The merger ended that.
So what I said is quite clear. When Eric was getting his signals from Turner, they had consistent leadership. When the Time Warner merger gave Eric some new bosses, the signals became mixed and the leadership was no longer consistent.

I've said the same thing the entire time. If you're going to accuse me of contradicting myself, at least be able to back it up.

To recap- Pre merger, WCW had some form of consistent leadership with Eric Bischoff, and that enabled them to get on prime time, sign Hogan, Savage, Luger, Hall, and Nash, as well as the Cruiserweights, and successfully make a solid run at the WWF. When the merger occured, the leadership was forced into a constant state of flux, and that inconsistency ruined the company. So again - DOWNFALL of WCW = MERGER.

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And this is where I completely disagree. You say they were organizedÖbut where they really?
Yes, they were. Said organization allowed them to get a live program on prime time Monday Nights, sign away WWF's top stars, develop the mid-card and cruiserweights, build your talent via the Power Plant, market the involvement of main stream stars such as Dennis Rodman and Jay Leno, etc.

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I would have to disagree with this. The downturn came when WWF was rising in popularity because WCW was just re-doing things like the multiple re-incarnations of the nWo for instance. WWF was putting out a great fresh product while WCW was just stale and people were just bored of seeing the same damn things over and over and overÖand over.
I know, I've already said this. But the part you're leaving out, most likely because it is detrimental to your argument, is the fact that WCW kept recycling storylines BECAUSE of the fact that the post-merger Time Warner execs essentially handcuffed Eric Bischoff from using pro wrestling's movement to the attitude era in WCW. As a result, his creative ideas got scrapped because of the "brand image" Time Warner wanted to maintain.

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Here is the thing thoughÖWCW was doing great business for a nice period of time and he was allowed to do what he wanted as long as he was making a profit. But once the company starting losing money because of his booking of the shows, the higher-ups had to step in and do something about it because they were losing millions and millions of dollars. What else would you have expected them to do? Just sit there and see the millions go down the drain because of WCW?
The "higher ups" stepped in before they started losing money, though, ST. They didn't give Eric carte blanche and then jump in when the money was on the way out. Even when WCW was profitable, Time Warner was concered about the overall effect professional wrestling was having on its brand.

And businesses do not close because they have a couple down years. Look at GM and Ford. They've had quite a few down years, but they didn't scrap everything, did they? No, they assessed where things were going, made changes, and kept moving. Why? Because the people in charge were committed to the product and the company. When the Time Warner merger occured, people atop WCW (aside from Turner) were not committed to the pro wrestling program, and that showed in funding. When WCW had some down years, Time Warner didn't come in and help fix it. They did everything they could to shut it down and sell it off.

When WWF needed some money to expand, Vince McMahon was able to make the decision, because HE supported the company, and HE was the one with the power to make the decision. WWF went public, sold an IPO, and had millions in capital to work with. WCW had nobody to turn to, not because of internal bullshit, but because the folks at Time Warner and later AOL Time Warner didn't give a lick. Do you think the billionaire execs wo were now in control actually cared if Billy Kidman was the US Champion???

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During the Hogan Era, the WWF boomed in business but once the New Generation era happened, they lost some popularity. But after the New Generation, the Attitude Era arrived and a new boom period happened. But what happened after the Attitude Era? Wrestling again lost some of its popularity.
Yes, professional wrestling is violently cyclical. Similar to the car business, actually. During the Hogan era, WCW was actually in a down cycle - especially when Flair went to WWF in 1992. During the New Generation, WCW rebounded and developed its product. Before the Attitude Era, WCW was innovative and profitable. When the merger occured, the unsupportive executive leadership, coupled with the flexibility in leadership Vince McMahon gave to the WWF and the ability to use risky storylines, profanity, and sex, WCW wasn't able to keep up.

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WCW died because of things like them spending ridiculous amounts of money and not making a profit for a couple of years. They were LOSING money and a lot of it. How can you expect for a company to go on much longer if they are losing millions of dollars a year?
Ask General Motors. In the early 90's and again in the post-9/11 2000's, GM posted losses in the billions. Everyone gawks at the $20 million loss WCW posted one year; that's a drop in the bucket compared to GM. Anyway, during BOTH the early 90's and early 00's, GM bled money from a gaping wound in consumer confidence and overspending. Do you know what they did? They made cuts to costs. They renegotiated, and closed unprofitable sections, they cut profit sharing, and they held layoffs. Why were they able to do this? Because the executive leadership was behind the measure to save the company. Eric Bischoff wanted to buy WCW so he could keep it alive - Time Warner had no such aspirations, and they let it die. Plain and simple.

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I donít really know much about TCM but before I actually do say something about it, does running TCM cost them just as many millions as WCW was losing?
Nope. On the flip side, TCM, since it runs no commercials, generates dick. When you look at WCW from 1994-2000, it was actually profitable overall. They made enough, especially from 1996-1998, to cover the losses from 1999-2001. So if the company was profitable overall during a 5-year period, why let it shut down? Because Chris Benoit left? Nope - it was because the Time Warner people wanted nothing to do with a product that was contrary to their brand image.

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Rest assured that if the internal forces of WCW didnít kill it because of the things I said in my first post in this thread, then they would probably still be alive.
If "internal forces" had that much of an effect on the business, WWF would have closed down two or three times already.
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  #10  
Old 09-12-2009, 12:03 AM
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Clarity Of Debate: Congrats ST, you are more organised than IC in my books. My advice son, don't get married, it messes you up. Nah I am kidding you IC. But ST,, good job here, you did well.

Punctuality: IC, some advice for you, don't go to school, it'll mess you up. IC gets these points.

Informative: Great information brought forth here. IC, you really dug into some great sources for yours. You deserve these points.

Emotionality: Is it the first time it has happened? I think it is. I am not giving these points to IC. ST, this has been your most passionate debate to date. I am really proud of you mate, great job.

Persuasion: But this comes down to certain things. IC dug deep, and took some big name sources here to help his debate. He knows his stuff, and I would assume has debated on this issue, or read closely many debates on the matter. He wins on the last point here, but good fight by both sides.

TM rates this IC 3 points to ST 2.
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