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  #11  
Old 07-15-2017, 02:28 PM
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Ok seriously, I'm not saying this stuff because I'm a Hogan mark or an nWo mark or anything like that, but as predicted, either no one read my post because it was too long, or you don't believe me and aren't willing to go back and verify what I'm saying by looking at credible sources, or just don't care because it goes against your own comfortable false narrative that most people have in their mind about this event.

I'm strictly going by the numbers and the facts, and the actual popularity and profits of WCW at the time. You don't have to believe me. Go back and read the Wrestling Observer info around that time, along with all other verified sources, including just the huge amount of Monday Night War TV rating websites, and you'll see what really happened.

You could personally hate this angle/match/time period all you want, and I'm sure many people that actually watched it, and continued to watch it in the months that followed (that's the whole point I'm trying to make by the way) hated it, but that doesn't change the fact that WCW did RECORD BUSINESS during this time. Record ratings, good pay per view buy rates, especially in February, had sold out arenas, and merchandise flying off the shelves.

The fingerpoke of doom was not even damaging to WCW, other than possibly being another blow to the prestige of the world title long-term, and maybe disappointing the actual fans in attendance in Atlanta that evening. Nevertheless, business-wise, and relentless1 brought this up a couple posts ago, the real thing that brought down WCW, (in late April/early May, not January, 1999) was three of the six members of the nWo Elite being out of commission and the angle falling apart. The angle actually worked, based on the actual business they did for a few months after starting it. It is a fact.

P.S. relentless1 also brought up a good point about the Starrcade 98 finish. I see virtually nothing wrong with that either, for a number of reasons, but that's a topic for another thread
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  #12  
Old 07-16-2017, 02:30 AM
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And you obviously didn't read my post. As I said in the Starrcade 98 thread and this one, people continued to watch WCW because it was habit for them. It was going to take awhile for the numbers and the fans to reflect WWF's superior product and that's exactly what happened. Also, it can be expected that business was still good for WCW around that time because wrestling in general was the most popular it had ever been. The fact remains, though, where WCW had once reigned supreme they no longer did and by the spring of 99 WWF was so far ahead that WCW was to not only losing in the ratings but they were losing business as well.

It's not about how well they were doing as a business. It's about how they were once the pinnacle of wrestling and by that time they were losing and losing fast and that angle had a lot to do with it. Fans weren't going to change right away. It was going to take time and that's exactly what happened.
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  #13  
Old 07-16-2017, 03:03 AM
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no no, you can't use the "habit" excuse in 1999... 98 yes, it was a habit that was broken by Austin, Tyson and DX but WWF was on top of their game in the beginning of 99 so your theory hold no weight at all... WCW was still doing record numbers in early 99.... and thats due to the FPOD making waves and fans being interested in what was gonna come next
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  #14  
Old 07-16-2017, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonyboyuk2 View Post
I think when David Arquette got made WCW world Champion it shat on the entire business.
but I bet you came all over yourself when Vince "won" the WWF title right around this time.(Fall 1999) and ECW(2007) titles.
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  #15  
Old 07-16-2017, 03:06 PM
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but I bet you came all over yourself when Vince "won" the WWF title right around this time.(Fall 1999) and ECW(2007) titles.
Yeah Arquette winning was bad as well as Russo but, keep in mind, Vince McMahon also won the title. All else equal these were all bad decisions.

Though I suspect Vince winning the title had a lot to do with generating interest in the Smackdown show (which just started at the time).

I would say though that if a product is hot, like the WWE at the time, even questionable booking decisions doesn't seem to bad but if a product is really bad, like WCW, something like Arquette winning the title would look exponentially worse.

It's funny though that people talk about the numerous title changes in 1999 and 2000 but WWE also had a lot of title changes in 1999. But, I guess, compared to WCW, WWE's numerous title switches from 1999 and 2000 feels minimal.
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  #16  
Old 07-16-2017, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by shooter_mcgavin View Post
Yeah Arquette winning was bad as well as Russo but, keep in mind, Vince McMahon also won the title. All else equal these were all bad decisions.

Though I suspect Vince winning the title had a lot to do with generating interest in the Smackdown show (which just started at the time).

I would say though that if a product is hot, like the WWE at the time, even questionable booking decisions doesn't seem to bad but if a product is really bad, like WCW, something like Arquette winning the title would look exponentially worse.

It's funny though that people talk about the numerous title changes in 1999 and 2000 but WWE also had a lot of title changes in 1999. But, I guess, compared to WCW, WWE's numerous title switches from 1999 and 2000 feels minimal.
Things were in a flux around the time Vince won the title back in '99. Smackdown was the new show, and Triple H wasn't exactly moving the needle as the champ and top heel just yet. Mind you, the whole feud with Vince and Trips was kinda stupid from the get go, especially considering that just a month prior Vince was the top heel. But they needed someone fresh to be at the top, and for better or worse during that period, it had to be Triple H. They could've went about the whole thing differently, and maybe if they had stuck with the original plan at Summerslam '99, perhaps Vince wouldn't have even been in a position to challenge for the belt. In the long run things worked out, the constant title changes were questionable at best, but nowhere as bad as the constant changes that went down in WCW.
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  #17  
Old 07-16-2017, 03:53 PM
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Vince had a bodybuilder physique and was 1/2 of the greatest feud in wrestling history. Comparing him to stick figure David Arquette winning the title due to a shitty movie is so laughable I could cry. A wrestling booker even moreso.

It's weird. Finger Poke of Doom was terrible, yeah, but does it deserve as much shit as it gets on the internet compared to, say, Jeff Jarrett lying down for Hulk Hogan? Or Hulk Hogan lying down for Sting? I don't believe so. To me that was when WcW lost its credibility. WcW blurred the lines of real and kayfabe with its management getting involved with main storylines and that was when everything truly took a turn for the worse. It was more horrible than FPOD, because it didn't make sense like Nash buddying up with Hogan did. There wasn't some shocking twist that fit a narrative. It was shocking for the sake of being shocking. It entered realms of meta that wasn't fun to see at all. People at home paid to watch Hogan and Jarrett/Sting on pay per view while Nash/Hogan was a freebie on tv. For me, that far surpasses a crap angle. FPOD left many not trusting the company, but at least it wasn't something the company did three or four times.

The Finger Poke of Doom is severely oversimplified as being this final nail in the coffin when in reality it was just a peek of things to come.
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  #18  
Old 07-17-2017, 10:26 AM
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While not the final nail in WCW's coffin by any stretch of the mind, FPOD was a pivotal moment for the company in regards to where they were at and, sadly, where they were heading in the near-term future.

If there is one thing critical about FPOD, it's that this moment epitomized the direction that WCW was beginning to go in, would go in during the years following, and what would ultimately lead to it's demise. Namely, the overreliance on swerve angles at the expense of talented stars, putting titles on (overly?) established guys, and a consistent forgoing of new, young, and exciting stars in favor of those aforementioned guys.

In 1996, Hogan turning heel and forming the nWo with Hall and Nash represented everything right with the company. A scant 2.5 later, Hogan picking up the title via fluke/swerve would come to represent everything that would become wrong. It would take awhile before the audience "caught on" and the deficiencies with WCW would begin showing up in the product en masse. By the time they got to the New Blood vs. Millionaires Club angle as a way to reset and repair things, it was far too late.
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  #19  
Old 07-17-2017, 11:51 PM
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You people are all drinking the WWE revisionist history kool aid.

FPOD wasn't a bad thing, cattle prod ending the streak wasn't a bad thing either.

Lets start with the Starrcade ending; while I agree that Nash shouldn't have been the guy to end the streak (it should've been Big Poppa Pump) the taser was a great way to keep Goldberg looking very strong; what other wrestler in that time period needed to be hit with a shock stick to get beaten?? Nobody, not even crow Sting who was also a nigh unstoppable force for a time.

The FPOD was a great way to streamline the heels and have a machine for Goldberg to run through on his way to a PROPER victory on PPV over Hogan; Luger, Bagwell, Steiner, Hall, Nash and finally Hogan in the summer gets beaten to finally finish off the nWo once and for all.

Now WCW screwed up this potential goldmine by losing sight of this easy to follow storyline; instead they put Flair/Horsemen above Goldberg in stature while Bill spent time dealing with guys like Bam Bam meanwhile Hogan and Flair decide to do a double turn and kill the damn thing right then and there.

WWE love to gloss over the fact that 1/3rd of the new nWo were immediately injured so this took some steam out of the group also; Hall and Luger both went down by Superbrawl.

So in retrospect yeah; the Poke wasn't good but had WCW stuck to the original plan afterwards then wed be looking at an entirely different story, one where Goldberg reigns triumphant after a long chase for the belt in the summer of '99
I said nearly the exact same thing on this topic a few years ago. Now I think WCW screwed up Goldberg's title reign because they never let him main event or gave him the top storyline until it was time to end it. Why was Hogan getting the best storylines and main events in July, Aug & Sept PPV events while Goldberg was champ, only to share a "Double Main Event" at the huge Halloween Havoc PPV with Hogan's rematch vs Ultimate Warrior (then Goldberg didn't even have a match on the Nov PPV!!!). Through all of this Goldberg remained way over, so his loss was a huge!

RE: The Fingerpoke, maybe the greatest swerve ever in Pro Wrestling History. Not entirely original as it bore a lot of similarity to Andre The Giant/Ted DiBiase and the selling of the WWE Title for cash in 1988, but Nash had been booked as a fan fave almost all of 1998 and was clearly (at this point) not on the same page as Hall and Hogan. Nash continuing to disavow their overtures and promise to settle things set up a dream match scenario, therefore when the FPOD happened it was a TOTAL SHOCK, not just that Nash would reconcile with those two (that's not a shock, just a minor surprise) but that he would give Hogan the belt like that "To Get The Band Back Together".....look at the ratings WCW drew huge numbers that night and the following week and then in Feb 99 twice topped the 5.0 mark DESPITE BEING IN DIRECT COMPETITION WITH WWE RAW.

FPOD set up an entirely new dynamic, ending the nonsensical Red & Black vs Black & White feud, allowing the NWO to purge all the ridiculous 2nd and 3rd teamers from their ranks (really, can you imagine DX, The Horsemen, or Evolution allowing the likes of Virgil, Horace Hogan, & Scott Norton in, and wasn't it long overdo the injury prone never around for long Curt Henning got the boot ?), returning the group to a lean, mean ruthless fighting machine. There was a twist this time, for the first time ever they DIDNT have control of WCW, Bischoff lost that to Ric Flair, but with Hogan back and The World Title in their pocket, they had some stroke, enough to wage a new war for hostile take over. WCW was badly in need of a serious heel after some ridiculous booking in 1998, a consistent bad *&* group that fans legitimately feared could and believed would beat their beloved fan faves.

The potential here was awesome, WCW is drawing 5.0 ratings and popping a huge buyrate for SuperBrawl in Feb with fans clearly into the new NWO dynamic of trying to get control of the company back from Mr WCW Ric Flair, all while Brett Hart, Sting & Lex Luger were all off injured. Imagine WWE doing that much business with HHH, Undertaker, & Mick Foley all out with major injuries ?? DDP was very popular, probably at his career height, and despite spending most of his title reign booked underneath Hogan, Goldberg was insanely popular. FPOD drew interest and initially sparked some tremendous storytelling potential. It was a success.

What came after, at least after SuperBrawl, that was the problem. A) The Double Turn: All of the effort in rebuilding the NWO establishing their ruthless heelishness was waisted two months in when Hogan decided he wanted to be a fan fave, leading the disbanding of the group. A major bait and switch, huge swerve, several cunning moves to stay ahead of the new WCW President, all wasted two months in. Meanwhile, Flair was so over with fans when he returned he was rivaling Goldberg for crowd responses yet two months into his triumphant return and table turning power play that took control of WCW away from the NWO he turned heel. Fans weren't impressed, Steiner soon dropped into the lightly promoted mid card after the NWO disbanded, Nash went back to being a face, Hogan actually disappeared from programming till late summer when he returned with the Red & Yellow Hulka-Mania persona, Flair went into an insane asylum (spending a month there until Scott Hall, his acrh nemesis snuck in and broke him out, a storyline that made almost no sense). The WWE equivalent would be if two months after Austin joined McMahon and defeated The Rock, in a legendary swerve no one saw coming that also established Rock as maybe the most popular face in the company, Rock turned heel, Austin left McMahon and just disappeared, and HHH walked away from all of them and turned face.

Supposedly the storyline was scrapped despite the high ratings simply because Hogan decided he wanted to work face because his young son had never seen him in his "Red & Yellow" phase as a hero, Flair agreed to it in order to get the title reign Bischoff allegedly had promised him as part of negotiations to get him to return (after Nash allegedly had asked Hogan to job to Flair at SuperBrawl to capitalize on the popularity of his return and Hogan refused) and of course Bischoff did it, well because he did what Hogan wanted. I'm all for established stars having input in storylines and character development, but not having the power to simply end top storylines at will despite their success just because they feel like it. ESPECIALLY after they (WCW) went out of its way to position him favorably and make him champ again in said storyline!

B) Mis Use Of Goldberg: One of the things that initially made the FPOD so compelling was the belief that we would finally, for the first time ever see a Goldberg vs The NWO feud, it had never been done. Hogan never feuded with Goldberg, in fact they almost never crossed paths after their title switch, Goldberg had minor feuds vs Henning & Big Show that never near the air time or storyline that Hogan's feuds at the time got. The NWO was back and badder than ever, and they not only had to deal with an old nemesis running the company now (Flair) they had to deal in the rind with maybe their toughest nemesis ever, Goldberg, after they stole The World Title from him and screw jobbed him out of his Streak. Goldberg-Nash II should have been huge, Goldberg-Hogan II should have been epic. Having Sting, Luger, and Brett Hart all ready to come off IR in the near future, plus DDP & Flair, there was tremendous potential storyline wise. The NWO should have done everything in their power to keep Goldberg away from The World Title and Goldberg should have syetmatically plowed through the entire group, ending with Nash and then Hogan. If WCW was intent on giving Flair a title run they could have him beat Hogan, causing heat in the NWO between Nash & Hogan with Nash pulling a power play and ousting Hogan (allowing him his time off, I believe the official reason for his absence in the spring & early summer of 99 was knee surgery), then have Nash steal the title from Flair, setting up his re match (and loss) to Goldberg who would still have to march through the group to get him, who then could have had a fan fave vs fan fave match vs a returning Hogan (Goldberg winning again).

It certainly would have been better than having Goldberg drop into the mid card to feud with Scott Hall, then find himself replaced in the World Title scene by DDP and Sting, have his re match with Nash relegated to an off month low value PPV (in the mid card no less, not even the main event!), then continue to languish in the mid card as Nash, Savage, Hogan, and a returning Sid Viscious dominate the top tier through the Summer of 99. If the double turn was horrible, this was twice as bad. Hogan & Flair were near the end of their time as consistent main event money makers, wasting them and their storyline was stupid. Goldberg was much younger and fresher, he was the future, already huge in the present, and WCW buried him for no apparent reason that made any business sense.

I don't know if Id call the FPOD brilliant but it was bold move that shook up WCW alliances and storylines in way really not seen since the early days of the NwO storyline in 1996, driving big numbers and interest in a product where 3 of it's biggest stars were all out injured. The potential storytelling in it's aftermath looked almost full proof, as if money was all but guaranteed, and yet WCW screwed up so much after the fact it boggles the mind.

Really the thread we should be debating is SuperBrawl 99, the beginning of the end of WCW

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  #20  
Old 07-18-2017, 09:40 AM
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Yeah Arquette winning was bad as well as Russo but, keep in mind, Vince McMahon also won the title. All else equal these were all bad decisions.
ok....since this was brought up, i'll discuss it.

I HATED David Arquette and Vince Russo winning it...but unlike some, i understood why they wanted David Arquette to win the title. they were trying to get Hollywood interested in WCW and basically trying to create publicity and it backfired on them. Vince Russo though had NO business winning the Championship. All that happened when Russo won the title was he basically rubbed it in people's faces, said he can win the title whenever and then gave it up

As for Vince McMahon winning the Championships he won, the WWE title win was to me more on buiding up the feud with him and Triple H and i kinda understood it. As for McMahon winning the ECW Championship, i had NO problem with that because in the end, what did Vince McMahon do?? he took a beating from Lashley and LOST the championship. he put someone over, he beat Lashley one time and he had the help of Umaga and his son. as bad as it was for McMahon winning a title, he at least put over the wrestler he was feuding with eventually. Vince McMahon also at least LOOKS like a challenger for a championship. he's in excellent shape....Russo is/was the size of a twig and him winning the title felt like any fan could get up off their couch and win.
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