Mark Madden’s comments about the WWE Jumping the Shark

[d_henderson1810]

Originally Posted by Ovaltine

Wow, someone had the balls to say that Jim Cornette sucks? Damn, that's bold. You also said Mark Madden is fat... that was the point of him writing the article that we are discussing. His point was the the current crop of WWE fan boys (of which you are) can't come up with anything good that happens on Raw. Their only retort is that Madden is fat. Therefore, you are doing exactly what he said that fan boys like you would do. You failed to list anything at all that is good in the WWE. You also failed to state why you think Jim Cornette and Kevin Kelly suck. These are baseless opinions if you can not back them up- which you haven't. Until you can say why these people don't know what they are talking about or why they suck (ASIDE FROM BEING FAT) your opinion is mute.

And for the record I hated Madden while he was in WCW. I hated the fact that he gave away so much inside information about the business and I hated his comentary too. However, his articles for wrestle zone are (IMO) usually at least 95% spot on in their assesment of the current quality of the WWE trainwreck.

AJ's ass is the only thing watching Raw for and most of the time I cannot even be bothered to do that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I assume that you are talking to me, even though you couldn't be bothered to put my quote up?

The problem with Jim Cornette, Kevin Kelly and Mark Madden is that they seem to me to be unprofessional. Each worked in WCW or WWE at one point (so obviously had no problem with them when they worked for them), all have been sacked, and all seem to blame the WWE or WCW for the ills of wrestling, (but they didn't think so when they took a paycheck from them).

Jim Cornette says stupid things about how WWE had ruined the industry, but without Vince McMahon and WWE, there would not be an industry today. Fact! Jim Cornette talks about ROH like it is the new force in wrestling, but it will never get the ratings, the publicity or the notice WWE and WCW is. Cornette say ROH is better, but publicity and ratings say otherwise.

Ask anyone in the street who a WWE wrestlers are, and they may have heard of one or two of them. Most people, unless they follow ROH, could name you anyone in ROH.

What is wrestling doing right. Okay, I will name a few things. The tag-team division is better lately, and they are legit tag-teams too (Hell No, Rhodes Scholars, Prime Time Players), not just two main-eventers thrown together and having a title reign. It's production values are first-class, and you feel like you are at a big show. Their video packages are second to none as well.

As for the wrestling, yes it is not as good, but then we don't have the calibre of wrestler we had ten years ago (HBK, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero etc), who could count on to deliver match after match. But the wrestling, except from the main-eventers was dire in the beloved "Attitude Era" as well, but everyone forgets that.

I will also point out another positive. A lot of you don't like John Cena, but do you know why he is the main guy. Because he gets a reaction! I don't like Vickie Guerrero, and think she is over-used, but she gets a reaction, so she gets screen-time. So, it is a positive that the WWE is pushing the most controversial, most talked-about WWE guy as its main star (a bit like when the controversial, talked-about SCSA was pushed). The fact that you people are so stupid to boo him, just makes him a bigger star.

This is why the IWC and Madden know nothing about running a wrestling company. You don't realise that Cena is pushed because of the "Let's go , Cena", "Cena sucks" chants. If you all ignored him, didn't talk about him etc, he may be pushed down the card. Why would Vince McMahon bury or not promote a guy who works harder, gets more "buzz" (positive and negative), promotes WWE tirelessly and does numoerous charity work? He has a business to run, and it makes millions (he probably makes more doing what he does than you do or Mark Madden does).

You are right, Madden's weight isn't an issue. A turd, fat or skinny, is still a turd. But Madden likes to make stupid and personal comments at people, so why it is okay for him to do it, and not me?

Look, you will never like WWE from now on. You turned away from them. You choice. So, why don't you just go away and not write here again, if wrestling is so bad. Come back when wrestling meets your unrealistic expectations. It's stupid posts like yours that make me wish that the "Attitude Era" had never happened.

[jmt225]

Originally Posted by Coco

His negativity and the fact that he only does this to retain what little relevance he has doesn't negate anything he's saying. A personal attack on the man doesn't mean he's wrong. Might as well call him a fat doo-doo head, neener-neener-neener!

Pointing out one incident where the WWE jumped the shark isn't what he's done here, JMT. He's merely pointing out the trend that WWE continues to coast and drop the ball creatively in spite of having all the resources a wrestling company could ever want. It's a fair point. This isn't arm-chair booking BS. He has fair gripes. To dismiss him because he's bitter or because he might not love wrestling is ignoring the real discussion worth having. To dismiss him because he gravitates towards sensationalism to generate hits is equally unfair, as it's hardly a grievous offence. Frankly, I'm surprised to see so many people who allegedly love professional wrestling dismiss his grievances so quickly and glibly.

Dude, you're almost as big of CM Punk as I am... the guy is about be WWE Champion for an entire year. Do you know how rare that is? Not just for a wrestler to be champ for a year these days, but your favorite wrestler? I don't think I've ever experienced that in my 20+ years of being a wrestling fan. I've enjoyed pro wrestling more this past year than I have since before Benoit's death, if not much longer. Any CM Punk fan has nothing to bitch about regarding WWE. Daniel Bryan getting his screen time and AJ being as amazing as she is makes me like Raw even more.

Now, do I have my complaints? Sure I do. Why the fuck is Christian a jobber? Why doesn't WWE use Randy Orton right? Why does Vickie have such a predominant role? Why is Smackdown such shit? Why can't WWE use the hour they were forced to add on to the program by USA better?

These are my complaints, but the good still outweigh the bad for now. Years before this the bad outweighed the good and I bitched as much as anyone.

That said, never would I use the term "jump the shark." That praise is already overused by morons on IMDB, and I'll be damned if a retard like Madden brings it into pro wrestling. It is literally impossible for WWE or pro wrestling as a whole to ever "jump the shark." It's the one entertainment business that is here to stay for good, no matter what they do.

And Coco, I'm surprise you like Madden. I see people's remarks about TNA around here rub you the wrong way all the time... have you ever seen that moron critique TNA? I don't even think he writes about TNA anymore because he hates it so much. You also used to hate Lord Sidious with a passion because of his snide remarks about WWE. If Mark Madden wasn't a writer for the main page and just some regular poster on this forum with no history in the business... I guarantee you would shit on him as much as you do Dagger. Guarantee it.

[Yawa]

Originally Posted by Y2eh 2.0

This isn't like High school graduation, people, you can't replace one class with another.

The actual question here is why can't they try?

Because I have news for you, the problem isnt that they cant, its because they aren't. The difference between every era you've gone back and mentioned is that those guys were given the ball in some capacity and ran with it. That doesn't happen anymore.

I realize even 8 years ago some guys just didn't have what it takes ( Carlito, Bobby Lashley), or did but couldn't handle it( Jeff Hardy and Ken Anderson come to mind), but at least the attempt was made. What bugs everyone, is that even though the formula is there and proven to work when talent is capable of making itself, the WWE just doesn't have the balls to use it anymore.

God, I mean even when they are lucky enough to catch lightening in a bottle ( CM Punk 2011), they manage to break it before they can use it to fully develop a star. If this era has proven anything, it's that it is impossible to create a breakout star with terrible, robotic, scripted promos. Stars are born when the script is tossed aside, and wrestlers find their character through development, not from screen writers.

The fact that Vince can't see this is the reason why we sit here today with a roster of underdeveloped talents, and pray for the return of the part timers, is really pathetic. He takes the platform away from these guys and expects them to get over without being able to give any input on their own gimmicks. Vince really has no one to blame but himself for this.

[RicSpade]

I agree and disagree with Mark Madden to a point, RAW for once was hard to watch, and I thought Main Event had more depth and at least helped with the Go home going into Survivor Series. Here is the problem though, we turned out this potential match between Ziggler and Cena this month (which would've helped with this storyline) to give a championship match that Punk obviously shouldn't lose which would put him at a year reign as champion which the fans want!

Here is the real issue here, the issue is that John Cena and AJ "affair scandal" is suppose to make the product edgier as they are treading the PG waters, Cena coming out of his hotel in a towel, AJ going into this room aren't most young fans which WWE is suppose to lean towards going to ask questions of their hero? Hopefully this goes somewhere or leads to something otherwise this seems pointless, but it looks like they are seeing how well fans respond to what the late 90's WWE was famous for.

Yes I agree too that someone other then Foley showing up for Lawler seemed stupid, especially since they aren't in a feud now, but we know that it is setting something up before Rock vs. Punk at least we hope we are.

Here is the problem and if your a wrestling fan you know I am write, its not that Heyman and Ross should be booking the whole, because hell just cause Heyman was successful at a cult following that a minority of fans still respond to that doesn't necessarily mean giving him some kind of control over creative will make your product any better. Heyman may have said Punk had more potential and that he pounded this in their heads until Punk was brought up, but knowing that doesn't mean Heyman and Ross are going to give you a hell of a product everytime.

Bischoff has say in production of TNA, he was the man behind the infamous NWO and almost Vince out of business, but even with his slight input TNA still doesn't have a solid solid product either.

I'm not saying Wrestling is a dying breed, its entertainment, not every day do you think its a 5 star production, hell neither brand has been for years. But you have to believe there is a bigger picture here...

[Ovaltine]

Originally Posted by d_henderson1810

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I assume that you are talking to me, even though you couldn't be bothered to put my quote up?

The problem with Jim Cornette, Kevin Kelly and Mark Madden is that they seem to me to be unprofessional. Each worked in WCW or WWE at one point (so obviously had no problem with them when they worked for them), all have been sacked, and all seem to blame the WWE or WCW for the ills of wrestling, (but they didn't think so when they took a paycheck from them).

Jim Cornette says stupid things about how WWE had ruined the industry, but without Vince McMahon and WWE, there would not be an industry today. Fact! Jim Cornette talks about ROH like it is the new force in wrestling, but it will never get the ratings, the publicity or the notice WWE and WCW is. Cornette say ROH is better, but publicity and ratings say otherwise.

Ask anyone in the street who a WWE wrestlers are, and they may have heard of one or two of them. Most people, unless they follow ROH, could name you anyone in ROH.

What is wrestling doing right. Okay, I will name a few things. The tag-team division is better lately, and they are legit tag-teams too (Hell No, Rhodes Scholars, Prime Time Players), not just two main-eventers thrown together and having a title reign. It's production values are first-class, and you feel like you are at a big show. Their video packages are second to none as well.

As for the wrestling, yes it is not as good, but then we don't have the calibre of wrestler we had ten years ago (HBK, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero etc), who could count on to deliver match after match. But the wrestling, except from the main-eventers was dire in the beloved "Attitude Era" as well, but everyone forgets that.

I will also point out another positive. A lot of you don't like John Cena, but do you know why he is the main guy. Because he gets a reaction! I don't like Vickie Guerrero, and think she is over-used, but she gets a reaction, so she gets screen-time. So, it is a positive that the WWE is pushing the most controversial, most talked-about WWE guy as its main star (a bit like when the controversial, talked-about SCSA was pushed). The fact that you people are so stupid to boo him, just makes him a bigger star.

This is why the IWC and Madden know nothing about running a wrestling company. You don't realise that Cena is pushed because of the "Let's go , Cena", "Cena sucks" chants. If you all ignored him, didn't talk about him etc, he may be pushed down the card. Why would Vince McMahon bury or not promote a guy who works harder, gets more "buzz" (positive and negative), promotes WWE tirelessly and does numoerous charity work? He has a business to run, and it makes millions (he probably makes more doing what he does than you do or Mark Madden does).

You are right, Madden's weight isn't an issue. A turd, fat or skinny, is still a turd. But Madden likes to make stupid and personal comments at people, so why it is okay for him to do it, and not me?

Look, you will never like WWE from now on. You turned away from them. You choice. So, why don't you just go away and not write here again, if wrestling is so bad. Come back when wrestling meets your unrealistic expectations. It's stupid posts like yours that make me wish that the "Attitude Era" had never happened.

Without the WWE there would be no wrestling industry today? Seriously? You're joking right? There would always be some type of wresling company in the states if Mcmahon hadden't Monoplized the business. WCW, NWA (way older than the WWE turd you're talking about) WCCW, UWF, ECW and AWA were all here. Due to bad business deals and shady stuff we don't hear about they are gone now, but there are always new wrestling companies poping up. TNA and ROH are two. Your comment reaks of WWE fanboy logic. Since WWE is the biggest they are the best and the business wouldn't be here without them, Well, I for one would have prefered to have kept all the defunct wrestling promotions around than the one big crappy promotion we have today.

I never bashed Cena or Vickki Guerrero. They draw which the the point of the business. I actually belive that CENa could have been a big star in any era. He looks great and is solid on the mic and while he is not a great worker there have been tons of hug draws that couldn't wrestle very well. Hulk Hogan being the obvious choice and Steve Austin (because by the time he madeit to the mainevent he was past his prine- he was a great wrestler in his prime-GREAT!) being another. Vickki Guerreo is another character who I think could have managed in any era. She draws heat! I actually think she could have been an even bigger star durring the Monday Night Wars or The Hogan era.

Now, you're saying Madden doesn't know nything about the business... Really? Come on. He worked for the worlds largest wrestling company durring the biggest boom the industry has ever seen. He saw first hand what it took to get WCW to the top and saw what it took to make the company fail. WCW was a damn instution with more money and power behind it than any otherwrestling company that ever existed and it failed. And now we ee WWE making all of the same mistakes that WCW did. Hotshot boking, a company of yes men, the dilution of the product, the over exposure of the product, the failure to make new stars. It's like history repeating iself and it isn't good. Contrary to what you may think I don 't want WWE to fail, but with the product dwindling it seems that it is on course to do just that. Vince just doesn't have it anymore. He is surrounded with Yes men. No one has the ball to say "Lets try something new." Vince the the George Lucas of wrestling. However, where Lucas finally let go of Star Wars I tuly believe Vince would rather kill his own product than let someone else run it out of fear that they could do it better and to expose the possibilty that all of the companies success wasn't due to him, but more of a collecetive colaboration between him and his former employees. You know, the ones who he would actually listen to when he first bought the company and the ones he was listening to when WCW was kicking his ass and he was only a few months out of goig out of business.

Now, youe telling me to go away cause you don't like my opinion...Seroiously how old are you?! You are all butt hurt because I don't like your percious WWE in its current state, Get over it. I will write whatever I want whenever I want and as much as I want. And for the record I could live without the attitude era myself. It was completely overrated in my opinion. Rock Vs Austin was grate, but most of the other stuff that was happening at that time was dreadful!

I am done so, if you want you can go back to putting words in my mouth again or elling me to leave cause it bothers youthan I have an opinion that you dislike.

[THE Great GAMMA]

Because of this thread I ended up going to read Maddens coloumns about Jumping the Shark.

In the second one he mentions that ratings are down. And PPV buys and house show attendances are down. And he is blaming the product. Well I would disagree….let me elaborate


Compared to “the Boom Period” of the 90’s the ratings are down.
Lets dissect this comment.

Yes ratings are down compared to the 90s and millions less watch wrestling today than they did then.

Could it be uhm lets see….A FREAKING CULTURE CHANGE????

You ever think that in the late 90s kids who grew up in a period where the most popular genre of music amongst the demographic that watched wrestling was punk rock, metal, and grunge music? And that television was their major source of entertainment. Where as today more people have Mobile phones and computers than TVs. And im pretty sure the ratings don’t include internet views or downloads.
A time when being sporty and athletic made you popular at school. When being politically correct wasn’t important. A time when kids still played sports like football, baseball and soccer outside and not on their Xbox. Before morbid obesity was a pandemic in the USA. A generation of teenage boys or men in their early 20s who haven’t been brainwashed by reality TV or Queer-eye for the straight guy.
A generation in which the Male Sex Symbols were Stallone, Russell, Willis and Gibson compared to today with Patterson, Christian Grey (Ok he is fictional but he counts wait for it) and Gosling. The difference being, that being rough and misogynistic and mean and tough was what was found attractive. Compared to today where being sensitive, damaged, emotionally aloof or a sparkly vampire are the most important traits in attractiveness.
A generation before one could just download an episode off the internet and watch it at their own convenience or go on you tube and just watch the sections they want to watch. Because those same people who were watching RAW in the mid to late 90s (within the demographic of 10-25 in the 90s who made up the majority of the viewership ) now have kids of their own and their priorities have changed from “I got to watch tv” to “I gotta take care of my kids”.
These are reasons why viewership has dipped and there are less new viewers. So blaming the product is very narrow minded….unless you want to see sparkly perfectly manicured men talk out their problems instead of power bombing someone through a table.
As for Attendances at Live events and PPV buys……THERE IS A GLOBAL FREAKING RESCESION!!!!! People have less disposable income now than they did in the 90s. Seriously just on face value if you know anything about economics you would be able to call BS with those claims. If you don’t here is a quick lesson:

Lets Go back 13 years to 1999:
Real Median Income of an average household in the US is $54,932 and tickets to a WWE/F (Non Wrestlmaina) Event Costs $ and a ppv buy costs
In 2012
Real Median income in the US is $50,054 and tickets to a WWE (Non Wrestlmania) Event Costs $41.00.
What this means is that people are earning less have less disposable income yet pay more for services. When the choice is between WWE and the Rent…the Rent wins everytime.

To blame the fall of ratings only on the product is narrow minded and idiotic. Its like saying oh Ferrari sold less new cars last year compared to 99 because the product sucks. It does not suck you are taking aware all of the mitigating factors of it.

Mark Madden you know what sucked? Nitro and WCW sucked. Not just as a brand. But as a product as well (I’m not knocking the talent just the company). That’s not me, that’s Fact. You ask how I could make this statement? Well because your company (or the one you keep mentioning to keep yourself relevant) went under in a time when the US economy was at its strongest level ever. People had money to spend and they did….just not on WCW. That is why WCW is dead and the WWE is still going.

Mr Madden you can flout your knowledge of what people would like. And say you could of written a better script during the ad breaks of your inconsequential radio show. But the truth is if you could then WCW would still be around or you would be working for a wrestling promotion. But you’re not.

You say you love this business but you have no business sense.

Name one thing I liked about the go home Raw of Survivor Series besides the Punk vs Cena match. I enjoyed the heart attack segment. I enjoyed the opening two matches.

I’m not bashing him because he is fat. I’m bashing him for the same reason I would bash Rush Limbaugh. Because he is out of touch with reality has nothing positive to say and is one of the biggest hypocrites around.

Well this is just my opinion.

[Lorenzo von Matterhorn]

Mark Madden is the best writer that Wrestlezone has under its employ, bar none. I will humbly throw myself under that bus, because it's true. But I have long-since stopped reading his articles; after about a year of following him every week (sometimes twice a week) I realized that he's done ran out of material. He's hated the product for so long, he has nothing new or fresh to bring to the table. He doesn't even bother making up creative titles for his flavor of the month anti-"fake wrestling" smear campaigns any longer. It's the same, tired bullshit...week after week. For a guy who hates the WWE, his weekly product is strangely reminiscent.

I understand that for somebody who has been so involved, and has been so invested in pro wrestling, he probably can't just stop watching it. He can hate it all, all he wants. He can spend all his time bitching about crappy storytelling and how the product isn't as good as it used to be. We know. WE ALL KNOW. Sometimes we play pretend that it's not, and try to justify modern creative's lack of, well...creativity, but the truth is...deep down we all know. He just makes part of his living off being the most negative fringe wrestling personality out there. There are real wrestlers and better commentators than him that have been fired by a major company, who moved on with life and stopped being bitter. I don't get why Madden is so obsessed with reminding us how crappy everything is. Maybe that's just the kind of person he is. But I cannot live that way, and so I just stopped reading his articles.

You can't approach him. You can't tell him that you enjoy something, because he'll throw it back in your face and call you a sheep. He respects nobody but himself, and that's what pisses me off. I disagree with a lot of people a lot of the time. But I do not react to things the way he does. If somebody emails me with a response, no matter how negative, as long as they come off like a respectful, knowledgeable human being, I will react in kind. But Madden treats everyone - including colleagues, although he'd never consider me anywhere near his level - like children. Not just like children, like abusive, alcoholic fathers treat their children. With disgust, disdain and abuse. I don't care how good a writer you are, that attitude is unacceptable in my opinion.

[The_Reptile_]

I know nothing about Mark Madden, and as such I don't have anything against Mark Madden. However if I had to judge his character by merit of his column I'd have to assume that he is an arrogant, meant spirited, bitter person who still lives in the past where wrestling was 'Fresh and New' when in fact he was seeing it through the eyes of a fan who was watching it happen for the first time.

While I won't deny that WWE has some BIG problems going on right now, that doesn't change the fact that Mark Madden has never and likely will never have anything positive to say about the business today. Even his praise is little more than backhanded compliments, saying they did a good job while smacking them across the face. He continuously harkens back to the Monday Night War and the monster ratings they pulled, either not realizing or conveniently forgetting that the television climate has changed drastically since then, and if you listen to him Vince McMahon is and always was a talentless hack, disregarding that Vince, at least once upon a time, was a brilliant and shrewd businessman, and in fact the on record worst period of time in the company in terms of business and draws happened in the early 90s when Vince wasn't in charge of the company. However, Madden goes out of his way to avoid praising the current product because that might actually make it look good and in fact continuously writes his articles in such a way that if you even like 'fake wrestling' at all, ever, never mind currently, then you are in fact a drooling moron, and any attempts to argue otherwise will just make yourself look like more of an idiot as far as he's concerned.

... Actually, you know what, screw trying to be neutral. I can't stand him. I'm all for people criticizing the product, but there's a difference between criticizing and straight out hating and the way Madden writes it seems as if he could never stomach the business. Why such a man would continue to associate himself with wrestling when he so clearly holds such contempt for the industry baffles me, but I refuse to let it bug me and I have ignored his column for the past year and will continue to do so for the near and likely long term future unless he gets off that high horse of his and actually starts talking about how wrestling could improve. But I know he won't, and that's why as far as I'm concerned he's just another name on a dirtsheet.