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  #11  
Old 10-15-2017, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor View Post
See it's that mentality that got Hollywood in the mess it's in right now... What x and y do is none of my business, even if it ain't quite kosher.
To be fair as far as we know Bret Hart never raped anyone so your comparison to the Weinstein thing is a bit over the top. Cheating isn't good but at least his was consensual.
Doesn't seem 25 years ago when he won the world title I still remember it quite clearly, I liked his title reign, Difference between him and Hogan I seen Hogan live against Yokozuna for the world title in a horrible count out match that only seemed to last less than 2 minutes and not long afterwards seen Bret live for the title in a great match that went about 20 times the length of the Hogan match so for delivering a great main event as much as I like Hogan I have to go with Bret Hart.
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  #12  
Old 10-16-2017, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyM4 View Post
When I put on wwf superstars on Saturday morning and saw that he won the title from Ric Flair a few days before that(they showed highlights), I was shocked. It came out of nowhere because 6 weeks earlier he lost the IC title. Also Flair just when it from Savage a month earlier. It made no sense to me watching it as a kid, but I was happy for him. A few days ago on the 25th anniversary of him winning, I popped in the coliseum video(not the actual VHS, but a burnt dvd copy) Smack Em Whack Em. Ric Flair said in his book that he was sick that day and he didn't think the match was good. It definitely wasn't either guy's top 10 matches. Did he ever defend the title against Macho Man during his first reign as champ? That should have been either the Royal Rumble or Wrestlemania main event.
Bret mentions wrestling Savage in his book- I think it was 1994 during Brets 2nd title reign at a house show... where Savage was used sparingly as a wrestler and more of an announcer- eventually prompting Savage to leave for WCW.

In this extract from the book Bret mentions that whilst preparing for the match road agent Blackjack Lanza talked down to Savage like he was a jobber.... so Savage told him to 'Shove it'.
Bret says that a year or two before savage would never have been spoken to like he was a 'secondary wrestler'.... though ever the pro- Savage let Bret go over clean.

However it would have meant more had Savage and Bret wrestled early in Brets first reign to really help put him over. Savage at the time was a premiere star.... but he was phased out and put out to pasture rather quickly as soon as Bret first became champ... at WM9 Savage didn't wrestle nor did he at Summerslam 93.

Aside from rematches with Flair.... Brets first reign lacked big name defences on his resume
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  #13  
Old 10-16-2017, 11:10 PM
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If I chose to remember Bret, I'll remember him for his work in the ring not focus on his personal failures. No one looks at the failures of Hulk Hogan, Flair, Austin Rock, etc. they only talk about their greatness. Bret wasn't the only wrestler to mess around on his wife, hell a lot of athletes do that on the road we don't take away their achievements for that.


One of my favorite performers is Bret Hart. I liked his ability to tell a story with any performer. His matches were real, they weren't (no matter what his detractors say) spot fests or routine. He rose from the bottom to the top, he paid his dues. When he became a champion, WWE was in turmoil, WWF and the steroid trial, Hogan's denial of steroid use, the issues with sexual assault of minors and/ or sexual harassment of employees in the organization by high executives.

He won the belt off a Rick Flair (not in his prime, tbh) at a house show. Why not a PPV or a Saturday night main event or on live tv show ? Have no idea why that happened. He came a downtime but was let down by the way he was booked and the talent he was surrounded with. He was the senior guy, the main person of any true stature. Hogan (supposedly) was to do the favor which he refused. That could have done wonders for Bret Hart.

Bret Hart was a good champion. He wasn't what I would call great box office , but he was a person who could work with the talent around him and deliver watchable entertaining matches. A guy with his ability and knack for storytelling and helping talent would be beneficial to WWE today.
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  #14  
Old 10-17-2017, 07:09 AM
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Okay for the sake of proper facts on this forum a comparison to Weinstein to Bret Hart is like comparing the Ritz hotel to McDonald's.Bret Hart is a class act all the way around no one is to know what mistakes he has made but everyone makes a mistake.His reputation speaks for itself as a human being as someone having morals and standing up for what is right and pound-for-pound the greatest wrestler character included that has ever laced up the boots in that ring,not Dean malenko not anybody can compare to what Bret Hart does in that ring it is art.
I think his best days were the WCW and the reason why even though many would argue that is because like any company someone may go to it has an effect on who they are,on their character.Aside from the fact that Bret Hart did not get utilized as he should have his character his makeup in WCW out did it in WWF.
Classy. That's what WCW is.That's what Bret Hart was & that's how it always will be.
The proof is in the pudding.

Last edited by V/CV/ : 10-17-2017 at 07:22 AM.
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  #15  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by V/CV/ View Post
Okay for the sake of proper facts on this forum a comparison to Weinstein to Bret Hart is like comparing the Ritz hotel to McDonald's.Bret Hart is a class act all the way around no one is to know what mistakes he has made but everyone makes a mistake.His reputation speaks for itself as a human being as someone having morals and standing up for what is right and pound-for-pound the greatest wrestler character included that has ever laced up the boots in that ring,not Dean malenko not anybody can compare to what Bret Hart does in that ring it is art.
I think his best days were the WCW and the reason why even though many would argue that is because like any company someone may go to it has an effect on who they are,on their character.Aside from the fact that Bret Hart did not get utilized as he should have his character his makeup in WCW out did it in WWF.
Classy. That's what WCW is.That's what Bret Hart was & that's how it always will be.
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The proof is in the pudding.
What a tease! I saw a lot of new responses in the Old School Wrestling section, but they're all from this guy who must have started learning English a week ago. Holy hell... "Proof is in the pudding" Do me a favor.. Ask your ESL teacher why she started the semester with proverbs instead of vocabulary, spelling or punctuation.

I look forward to your improved language arts, so that you can more clearly convey the reasons that Bret's best days were in WCW.

I feel that disagreeing with you, or pointing out that his WWF days were his best, would be irresponsible on my part, as it may cause you to spend time on YouTube or the Network. That time should be used learning what a comma is and when I comes before E.
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  #16  
Old 10-17-2017, 02:34 PM
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Lets clear some things up...

Im surprised how many posters here in this thread seem to have no idea on how Brett's first World Title win came about. SummerSlam was written to set up a big feud between Ric Flair & Ultimate Warrior, which immediately commensed on the US house show circuit and WWE TV. It seemed (but was never confirmed) that Warrior vs Flair was destined to main event Survivor Series, likely with UW winning (Vince definately preferred strong hero characters as champ). In Phoenix Flair was injured during a press slam spot with UW, breaking bones in his ear which caused him equilibrium problems. No one knew how long it would take to clear up but niether Flair nor Vince believed he could continue wrestling so Vince decided to switch champs ASAP, not wanting to lose revenue on the circuit by having a champ who didnt wrestle and risk the fact Flair might not be better by S-Series. Hart was chosen because A) He was very popular & well established with the audience. B) He could be relied on to work a full time schedule on the touring circuit (Hogan never worked full time on tour, sometimes going over a month without a match, but Vince made Savage & Flair work full time schedules as champ, which seemed important with the industry in general seeing declining ratings and attendance for 3 straight years after a peak in 1989). C) Hart wasnt a trouble maker, he was viewed as a comany man.

That last part was important because Warrior and WWE were never fully on good terms after his contract dispute and long absence the previous year. UW's lackluster performances during his 92 comeback didnt help, injuring Flair being about the last straw.

UW disapeared from TV when Hart won the title, with no explanation (Flair was gone over a month too, but his absence was explained on TV as related to injuries he suffered in his title loss to Brett). UW returned to TV briefly when Flair did, ostensibly to finish their feud at S-Series but UW disapeared right after his return after a TV segment on Saturday Night's Main Event in which Flair punked him with help from Scott Hall aka Razor Ramoan. This lead to the Curt Henning comes out of retirement angle but it seemed to indicate how far UW had fallen since S-Slam. This is why Brett's first title win had no build up and seemed out of nowhere.

Flair & Hart in a joint interview discussed the whole situation last year, with Hart admitting he was surprised when Vince told him the news (in his words he thought he was summoned to Vince's office to be reprimanded for issues he had with his passport that caused him travel delays).

As for Hart's legacy as a performer, he's a bona fide Hall of Fame talent, he was great in The Hart Foundation tag team as WWE's answer to the Midnight Express, his initial singles push which included a memorable IC Title run and great matches with Henning & Roddy Piper was a significant success, and he dominated the WWE Title scene 1992-97 which is no small accomplishment. There were highlights in WCW too, matches with Flair, Sting, Lex Luger and Chris Benoit that just add to his legacy.

Do I personally rank Hart at the top all time ? I do not based on his charisma, his character simply wasnt as entertaining as Austin, Flair, Hogan, etc. I think Hart gets unfairly criticized for his "lack of charisma", he wasnt "Dean Malenko Boring" so to speak, and he was effective at getting over with audiences as both a heel (especially in 96 & 97) & face (unlike Sting, who never was a good heel or Ricky Steamboat who never even worked heel), he just comes up a bit short in entertainment value compared to a lot of others. If he was truly as dull as some call him he never would have had the success he had.

As far as Hart's character, that is a complicated issue. Was he more upset at the turn away from "Disney Style" programming during the start of The Attitude Era or was it that HBK was supplanting him as the company's top star (and the fact HBK by his own admission was total *&%$# and not a "company guy"). How much of Hart's vitriol in interviews in the last 16 years is related to the negative way he let go from WWE, his mistreatment by Bischoff in WCW, and the injury that prematurely ended his career, denying him the "last run" Hogan had or the great ending storylines and matches HBK & Flair recieved in the latter days ? Plus, shouldnt those who criticize Hart's alleged negativity give him credit for burying the hatchet, making peace, and publicly praising Flair, HBK, & Vince in more recent years ?

I think Hart is comparable to John Cena, essentially Cena is the modern era Brett Hart, a guy who reached major heights of success during "down periods" in the industry. Also, like Cena, Hart was a work horse for years, on TV, the house show circuit, and PPV, also doing commercials, TV appearances, and charity work helping to promote the company. It isnt their fault that their ascension to "SuperStar" status happened when the industry as a whole was declining after an epic peak, in fact in one way that makes their success more praiseworthy, hitting comparable heights to many of the business' biggest legends during an era with lower numbers than when those legends reached their peak.

In another way Hart is comparable to 90s era Flair. Wether it was an attempt to spark ratings or maybe a response to his "lack of charisma" but it seemed as if Vince & WWE were always looking to replace Hart as the #1 guy, yet they always came back to him, time & again, because A) Different attempts to crown a new top guy (like Nash & HBK) didnt deliver the change in business Vince sought B) Vince & WWE always knew Hart would deliver good numbers, even in down times, maybe they wanted "better numbers" but when others didnt deliver WWE knew consistently what they could get from Brett . In WCW it was same with Flair....Vader not delivering what they wanted, time to change, Go To Flair. Sting not delivering the numbers they want, Go Back To Flair, Hogan not drawing enough vs Beefcake & Vader, bring back Flair. With Flair it was more an age issue than entertainment value (he was in his mid 40s when he returned from WWE, still viable in the ring and valuable with the audience, but too old to be a long term answer). In the end, Flair always propped up the numbers and kept things in good stead while they searched for the next big thing.

Its not an easy situation to be in, but Hart always worked his *** off and tried hard to deliver for the company.

He's one of the best, if he was a quarterback he would be say a Brett Favre or Troy Aikman, a legit Hall of Fame talent and definately great, but not quite Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas, Tom Brady great. That's nothing to be ashamed of, in fact compared to the overwhelming majority of others who have done that job it's significantly better.
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  #17  
Old 10-20-2017, 05:19 PM
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I got into wrestling in late 1991 to watch Hulk Hogan. By the time wrestle mania 8 was rolling around, I was becoming more of a Bret Hart fan. After Summerslam 92, I was all in on Bret. He was favorite wrestler.

Bret's first title reign, IMO, was underrated. He wrestled on tv every week. You got to see the champion have non ppv matches. He didn't have a lot of notable matches but he was on tv doing his thing constantly, which was unheard of for the champion. I think it really set the standard the future of tv. Between this reign and Shawn defending the IC title on raw every week, it made the show.

I immediately turned on Bret in 97 when he "turned on America". I insistently hated him. He played that role so well and was unbelievable on the mic. I still consider the USA vs CAN feud the most underrated angle in wrestling history. This may have been my favorite time as a fan.

When I started to read the behind the scenes stuff on the internet and watching shoot videos, I became less of Bret fan. He really rubbed me the wrong way. I do think he's got a lot better since then tho. Between having his career end (he really did love wrestling), the concussion, the stroke, and Owen dying, I can see how he could have become bitter. Since him and Shawn buried the hatchet, I think Bret let go of a lot of the animosity towards Shawn, Vince, and wrestling in general.

When I think of Bret, I don't think of the years he was bitter. I think of the first champion in my lifetime (possibly ever) wrestling on TV every week, I think of Summerslam 92, I think of the summer of 97, and I think of the iron man match. I have loved and hated Bret, but he definitely made my days of watching wrestling more enjoyable.

Last edited by HBKperfect23 : 10-20-2017 at 05:25 PM.
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