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  #51  
Old 08-08-2017, 10:52 AM
LBGetBack LBGetBack is offline
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Originally Posted by GhettoV1 View Post
I agree with the following: See there's one aspect people aren't grasping with all this - some have touched close, but the reality is that Vince really was in last chance saloon financially when he asked Bret to go to WCW. He'd tried everything he knew in his comfort zone to turn the company around and it hadn't work, leaving the raunchy, Attitude direction as in reality, a last throw of the dice. Vince abandoned it and went back to his comfort zone first chance he got... marketing to kids.

As for Bret and the 20 year deal, I think even then Vince knew the writing was on the wall and the deal would never actually be honored in full. Either the company was gonna go under or Bret would eventually throw his toys from the pram and they'd negotiate a settlement.

What Vince did was offer Bret a win/win (in his mind) get pretty much the same money as the 20 year deal in a shorter space of time with WCW and it got the increasingly whiny (Wrestling With Shadows watched today shows Bret in a pretty negative light) and intransigent star who would have eventually caused a Montreal situation regardless.

Had he stayed, I don't think WWE would have been going "under as such" but I think Bret would have inadvertently damaged their success. WWE was able to create at least new main event star EVERY Year for the next decade except for 03 when Goldberg took that slot. Look at the list below... had Bret stayed for any period of that 20 year contract, one or more of those pushes couldn't have happened. He was already protecting his "spot" despite his claims that he'd drop to "anyone but Shawn" in 97... had the issue not been with him it might have been with the greener Rock, or not wanting to lose to Chris Jericho or Triple H who he didn't respect... or he'd have forced them to give Owen that title run at some point.

98 - Austin & Rock
99 - Foley & Trips
00 - Kurt Angle & Big Show
01 - Chris Jericho
02 - Brock Lesnar
04 - Eddie G, Orton, Benoit & JBL
05 - Cena & Batista
06 - Edge, RVD, Rey

There's also the possibility that signings would have been different and people jumping ship would not have done so. Someone like Jericho might have been excited by being able to face Bret in WWE... but they equally might have been wary that they'd be second string and not get the chances if he lived up to his increasing rep.

Remember word would filter through to WCW about how Bret was via the Kliq... they would only have "one side" of the story perhaps, but much of Bret's actions caught on camera on Wrestling With Shadows would have unnerved some talents on the way in. "Is he gonna power play us like The NWO do..." would have been a factor in some guys not going to WCW or leaving.

Would Owen be alive? Who knows - Personally, I think had Bret stayed then Owen would have been a one time WWF champion by May 99 and retired, living as the firefighter he planned to be... perhaps Final Destination style luck sees him killed fighting a fire instead?

SO realistically... it goes like this if Montreal doesn't happen and Bret is staying.

Bret doesn't drop to Shawn at Survivor Series... he chooses to drop to Taker. Shawn gets pissed and leaves for WCW... dying less than a year later in a drug related incident or car accident.

Bret gets the belt back at the Rumble to drop to Austin at 14 - but makes sure there is an "out" for himself via Taker interference, rather than letting Austin get the straight revenge and win for the prior year. That devalues Austin as there was no Mike Tyson/McMahon feud to kick off his run.

The Rock gets held down in the IC division at least another year, and Bret refuses to help elevate him as he feels he hasn't "paid his dues yet". This annoys Vince and the Ano'i/Samoan faction and starts to cause issues between them and the Harts. The Samoans feel Bret owes for Yoko doing him the favor back as Yoko could have legit refused to do so.

Davey Boy is made to put Rock over instead and buried in the match, souring relations further. We see a Hart Family v Samoan feud with Haku coming back to the WWE and legit making clear to Bret that no more of his games will be tolerated.

Bret finally refuses to job to Rocky one last time and it causes a severe altercation backstage with Haku, Afa and other members of the Anoi' family. Rocky stays out of it wisely but it's the final straw for Vince who makes plans for life without Bret.

Screwjob situation occurs at Wrestlemania 15 when Rocky is handed a shock and "screwjob" title win. Bret is without a WCW contract and has to accept reduced terms, but the bad blood with the Samoan/Tongans is even there in WCW with guys like The Barbarian there.

Owen retires rather than face repercussions (although the Samoans never have an issue with him or Davey, only Bret, Bruce and Neidhart who all stick close to Bret) and the Hart family "splinters" in real life. with Davey staying in the WWF and being pushed - with Rocky dropping the title to him as a receipt for putting him over strong at one of their UK Events... Davey gets to lift the title in the UK and top off his career... he never goes to WCW and gets the back injury... away from Neidhart's influence he cleans himself up and becomes a solid WWE main eventer for the later years of his life, helping the burgeoning UK PPV/RAW events and their TV deal with Channel 4 and later ITV although as with real life - a lot of the damage was done already.

The controversy helps make the WWF must see again and with Rock and Austin's "Battle Of THe Badasses" it goes over the top... it takes another year to win the war but it's still won... Foley doesn't get the title but Davey does.

Bret makes it to Mania 15 tops... made REAL enemies that severely limit his options in the business and Shawn is dead...with Davey perhaps still being here, although badly aging. Butterfly Effect perhaps... but VERY likely had he not gone when he did.

If his options were very limited Hart could've went to ECW for a year or two to refresh his image and then try to return to WWE.
I think it's completely baseless to say Bret would've refused to lose to someone else.....huh? I mean, where does that come from? Bret was a 5 time champion.....meaning he lost it 5 times. One was the screwjob, but he never had a problem putting anyone else over. That was an extraordinary situation. At least Bret was up front about it and didn't fake an injury like Shawn. Seems you guys who go hard at Bret always forget that part. Shawn hurt the product way more than Bret, with all his BS around that time period.

Suggesting Bret would've blocked Rock or Jericho's push is flat out ridiculous and baseless. Bret made Owen a star, made Austin legit, put Shawn over in the first place, put Yokozuna over, etc.

Edit: whoa! I made my post after reading halfway through your message. If I knew just how ridiculous the post would get, I wouldn't have bothered replying. Wow.

Last edited by LBGetBack : 08-08-2017 at 10:54 AM.
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  #52  
Old 09-12-2017, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBGetBack View Post
I think it's completely baseless to say Bret would've refused to lose to someone else.....huh? I mean, where does that come from? Bret was a 5 time champion.....meaning he lost it 5 times. One was the screwjob, but he never had a problem putting anyone else over. That was an extraordinary situation. At least Bret was up front about it and didn't fake an injury like Shawn. Seems you guys who go hard at Bret always forget that part. Shawn hurt the product way more than Bret, with all his BS around that time period.

Suggesting Bret would've blocked Rock or Jericho's push is flat out ridiculous and baseless. Bret made Owen a star, made Austin legit, put Shawn over in the first place, put Yokozuna over, etc.

Edit: whoa! I made my post after reading halfway through your message. If I knew just how ridiculous the post would get, I wouldn't have bothered replying. Wow.
I completely agree. It was Shawn that was the complete selfish prick. Funny thing is, now he says he misses old school wrestling and booking, acknowledging he had played a part in the new way. What a moron.

Bret was right all along. Instead of enjoying the drunken stupor high that was the AE, with its resultant hangover (this whole just talking in the ring nonsense still continues to this day) which largely 'ruined' wrestling, we might still be seeing old school booking that is really intriguing.

Also, Vince would not have gotten the Heat for Austin to skyrocket to stardom (his stunner moment on Vince changed the WWF to the whole controlling GM crap u still see today vs wrestlers driving the story line). DX would not have gotten as big. WCW would not have gone out of business in the way it did trying to copy the WWE's AE (another victim). Notice how they went away from the AE content? But kept the worse parts of it? It's bc shock value loses at the end. With Bret still in the WWF/E, they would not have been able to go for all that shock value which was a short-term survival tactic.
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  #53  
Old 10-06-2017, 09:27 PM
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It would have been interesting as WCW really seemed to really mess up with him, I do believe he would have had a better ending to his full time career and as I think Bret was in on the Montreal Screwjob I could see it still happening and Bret going on to feud with the Mr Mcmahon character, Maybe retiring a couple of years later for an agent or trainer job and coming back for the occasional match against guys like The Rock, Kurt Angle and Brock Lesnar, Some on here mentioned Owen Hart wouldn't have happened but I don't agree as Owen was his own man with his own choices, Bret wasn't his keeper.
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  #54  
Old 10-07-2017, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by FromGlasgow View Post
It would have been interesting as WCW really seemed to really mess up with him, I do believe he would have had a better ending to his full time career and as I think Bret was in on the Montreal Screwjob I could see it still happening and Bret going on to feud with the Mr Mcmahon character, Maybe retiring a couple of years later for an agent or trainer job and coming back for the occasional match against guys like The Rock, Kurt Angle and Brock Lesnar, Some on here mentioned Owen Hart wouldn't have happened but I don't agree as Owen was his own man with his own choices, Bret wasn't his keeper.
The blue blazer gimmick would not have been pulled out of mothballs had Bret stayed.

And Bret would have talked his brother out of doing the stunt.

The hart foundation gimmick had staying power.
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  #55  
Old 10-07-2017, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by GhettoV1 View Post
I agree with the following: See there's one aspect people aren't grasping with all this - some have touched close, but the reality is that Vince really was in last chance saloon financially when he asked Bret to go to WCW. He'd tried everything he knew in his comfort zone to turn the company around and it hadn't work, leaving the raunchy, Attitude direction as in reality, a last throw of the dice. Vince abandoned it and went back to his comfort zone first chance he got... marketing to kids.
This is out of the current topic, but what the hell are you talking about? The Attitude Era ended in 2001 and Vince had won the war. He was king of the world. If Vince had went to marketing to kids first chance it got, it would have happened in 2002, when Vince really had no more bussiness staying in the edgy programm. But he stayed there until 2008 and was forced to change the policy and his market because of Chris Benoit and his shareholders. 7 years after the AE ended. Not first chance he got. People forget that it's not the kids that are the problem. WWE has been losing viewers constatly for the past 15 years straight. They went PG in the last 9. They were still losing viewers before PG and the whole blood masks of the Ruthless Agression Era were just cringe-worthy and over the top.
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  #56  
Old 10-07-2017, 07:48 AM
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If Bret stays the following things happen:

1) HBK leaves to WCW and joins the Kliq, where he probably ends up like Scott Hall.
2) Tyson never does WM 14. Vince brought Tyson in with money he found after he got rid of Bret's heavy contract. During that time HBK would also have stayed around as well so probably, WM 14 becomes a big mess about who's going to main event. Add in there the fact that Owen broke Austin's neck and there could have been some hot drama between Bret-Austin-HBK.
3) WWE goes into the Attitude Era, since they had already started going into that direction, but without the two Bing Bangs: The Montreal Screwjob and Mike Tyson. So WWE loses a lot of momentum.
4) Owen probably never dies.
5) The Kliq probably kills WCW from within. Imagine a company with Hogan, Kliq and Flair in it. Too much ego.
6) WWF probably ends up winning the war, since in my eyes WCW was always gonna fall, but they never genereate the money they did and maybe WWF closes as well down the line.
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  #57  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:09 PM
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And don't forget about the mid carders and Sting and Lex Luger to add to the Hogan, Flair and the nWo cliques in WCW. WCW would've closed a year earlier.
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  #58  
Old 11-22-2017, 06:37 PM
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There are a few things left out...

First off, In early September Vince said he couldn't afford to pay Bret, but by late September at the MSG Raw Vince told Bret that money was no longer a problem, that he could pay him in full. Then Vince laid out his plans, he wanted Bret to job to Michaels at a series of PPV matches, and then Bret would finally go over for the title on RAW saying if he lost he would never wrestle in the USA again, only to put Austin over at Mania, because Bret vs Austin was still hot. Bret realized he was no longer going to be champion, and he took it very seriously, a claim that many put on Michaels.

Secondly, in late 1997 Vince was already discussing going public with the WWF and his advisors told him not to stick to any long-term financial commitments, one of them being the Hart contract. He paid Tyson all that money for a few appearances. It had nothing to do with money.

I used to think Shawn was a prick and Bret was completely right, but after reading and listening to Bruce Prichard and even hearing the Shawn interview with Vince Russo last year, I just think Bret didn't want to give up that spot to a guy that he felt wasn't the right guy, and Bret took everything just as seriously and just as to heart as he accused Michaels of being insecure, etc. He was just as paranoid as Shawn was. For whatever flaws Michaels had, Bret was just as guilty. He didn't want to play second fiddle to a guy he felt didn't respect him, but at the same time Michaels had his own points of view on the situation, and I'm sure Vince played them both off each other. Michaels jobbed to Hart numerous times through 1992-1993 including a PPV in 1992 before the PPV over-exposure, and he played 2nd fiddle to Hart up until WM12, and in Michael's mind it was Hart's turn to do the same. They both worked each other into shoots.
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