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  #41  
Old 09-03-2017, 06:53 AM
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THTRobtaylor THTRobtaylor is offline
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Timeline is right.. remember to build a star takes 3 years in real terms... a year of midcard push, then a year of contention and a champ run...

Henry's push started around 2008 with ECW and its title, which would be the midcard push, then they put him in contention and 3 years later he was main eventing. That ECW win would have been right after his 10 year deal expired and he'd signed a new one... so they had to get value for that deal out of him, I doubt he took a paycut.
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  #42  
Old 09-03-2017, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor View Post
Timeline is right.. remember to build a star takes 3 years in real terms... a year of midcard push, then a year of contention and a champ run...

Henry's push started around 2008 with ECW and its title, which would be the midcard push, then they put him in contention and 3 years later he was main eventing. That ECW win would have been right after his 10 year deal expired and he'd signed a new one... so they had to get value for that deal out of him, I doubt he took a paycut.
Bullshit.

So Kool-Aid Mark Henry teaming with Bourne and MVP in 09-10 was building him up for a world title run? Markswoggle? You pulled this out of your ass and have zero recollection of his time before the world title run. Veterans would get the ECW title. They would help the young guys along or provide a tiny bit of star power. The year he won the title (2011), he wasn't even on the main Mania show. He was in the dark battle royal match.

His deal was $250,000 per year for 10 years. I think that is on the lower end.
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  #43  
Old 09-04-2017, 06:54 PM
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Don't forget how hard Ahmed Johnson was pushed between like 95-97.
He just happened to be incredibly injury prone.

If he had been healthy then there's no doubt he would have had a run at the top.

There's definitely a bit of racism in the company but probably not involving people's pushes.

That whole ADR incident and his comments about it afterwards.

And unintentional racism like Carlito talking about Vince asking him to "spic it up" in terms of his character.

You could say characters were degrading or stereotypes but Cryme Tyme was thought up by JTG and Shad went along with it, Nation Of Domination was originally thought up by PG 13 in USWA and it's not like there haven't been embarrassing or stereotypical characters for whites. A white accountant, white hillbilly pig farmers.

Booker T could have been the man but there's the whole idea of if Vince was trying to punish the WCW guys that came over. Either way Booker still had a good run in the company.
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  #44  
Old 09-04-2017, 08:23 PM
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I wouldn't be surprised one bit to find out that a few execs in the WWE have white robes in their closets, but in general? No the company isn't racist. They've always believed very strongly in stereotypes, and few companies have as strongly perpetuated stereotypes than the WWE, but that's it.

They are also A LOT better today than they used to be. I can still remember when every black wrestler had a rock hard head (great for headbutts). How they were mostly always heels. How the baby faces would cut the most racist promos against them, and have the crowd and announcers cheering wildly. How some ridiculously talented black wrestlers would get held down and have to put over the white champions.

Those days are gone.

A couple notes:

- a couple people mentioned Kamala as one of McMahon's racist gimmicks? James Harris came up with that gimmick years before he ever set foot in a WWF ring down in Memphis. Jerry Lawler helped him come up with it. Vince had nothing to do with it, other than the fact that he smartly signed Kamala and used him as is (as in not changing anything, because Kamala was over af)

- someone mentioned that they didn't have black champions before the 90's because there weren't enough black fans to care, or black wrestlers that were good enough? I don't know about the fans, but there were absolutely wrestlers who were good enough. The first one that comes to mind was Butch Reed in the early 80's out of Mid South. He would have been a far better transitional champ than Kerry Von Erich. He'd been working arguably a better program with Flair than Von Erich as well. The NWA board wasn't thrilled with a black man being the guy though. Tony Atlas in the early 80's WWF too. They thought enough of him to put him clean over Hogan before Hulk left for the AWA. Backlund wasn't drawing. But Vince (Sr I believe at the time) didn't think he was right to be the top guy. Not long after there was Snuka (not black, but still). Might have been the most over guy in the country at the time. Vince didn't want a 'savage' to be his champ though.

Point is, there were guys who could have been champ. And the promoters were happy to have them. But there was a ceiling for these guys that didn't exist for the white guys. And that is racism. Not overt, but equality definitely didn't exist.

Today? That ceiling isn't there. If you're good enough, you'll get your chance with the ball. There's equality now. Or at least more than there ever used to be, which is a step in the right direction.
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  #45  
Old 09-07-2017, 07:09 PM
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I don't believe theres racism, If Vince feels someone can make him money then that person is going to be pushed to the top no matter who they are, Arguable in the past that some characters may have had racist tones such as the Iron Sheik, Kamala, Saba Simba or Papa Shango for example but I seen them as just exagerated characters and miss watching these types of characters.
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  #46  
Old 09-26-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_henderson1810 View Post
All the examples you mentioned happened over 20 years ago, where more was accepted, and political correctness hadn't taken hold.

WWE made racial stereotypical characters in an era where "All In The Family" was a TV staple. Standards have changed, and WWE has been forced to change with it. Why do you think that they made the New Day three guys who espouse positivity, rather than Nation Of Domination 2.0, which was based on the racist Louis Farrakan arm of the Nation Of Islam (who I believe that Malcolm X disendorsed Farrakan and his activities). A stable like that wouldn't be accepted today, as it puts blacks in a bad light to portray them as racist (since, as the media will tell you, only white people can ever be racist).
While I don't disagree with the point of your post, I'm going to nitpick your example of All In The Family as a racist television show. Quite the opposite, it was a groundbreaking sitcom that dealt head on with a changing society. Though Archie Bunker often uttered racially insensitive words, he was seen as uneducated and a bit of a buffoon and it showed that the stereotypes he believed in were outdated and flat wrong. The episode where Sammy Davis, Jr. kisses him stands the test of time as one of the greatest sitcom episodes ever aired. Also, the series ended in 1979.

Last edited by tdmoon : 09-26-2017 at 10:08 AM.
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  #47  
Old 09-26-2017, 01:23 PM
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THTRobtaylor THTRobtaylor is offline
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Butch Reed left the NWA for the WWE and was in the mix for the IC title, indeed he was planned to have it instead of Honky Tonk Man but his backstage antics put paid to that... he went back to NWA/WCW as part of Doom and it was Simmons who got over from it. In short, Reed blew his chance at the big time.

Von Erich got the title for totally different reasons, due to his brother's death and being due to get the title when he died. That transitional run served a purpose... and Kerry got a run rather than David getting the run that was intended. Butch was NEVER getting near it and nor should he have.
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  #48  
Old 09-27-2017, 04:38 PM
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All in the family morphed into Archie Bunker's place in 1979 and gained four years until it's end in 1982 (or 1983 if I'm right). And WWE always been an ethnic territory based in the Northeast U.S. since it's founding as Capital Sports (CWC) in 1952.
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  #49  
Old 09-30-2017, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
Even if we take your list as 100% true (which I don't), your list would not even make up 10% of today's current roster, much less when placed against all wrestlers of the last few decades. And that's the point...you can't ask how many have had a chance for the title when the percentage of representation is so small you need a microscope to see it.
Exactly... that's not even 1% of the ethnic talent that's been in the mix.

Ricky Steamboat was Hawaiian... as American as anyone else, indeed as American as Yokozuna... He was just billed as American, whereas Yoko was billed as Japanese.

Was it racist to use a Samoan American as a "Japanese champion?" Not really, other wise you get into the whole tizzy some are over Hollywood... can only a Japanese-American play Rick Daimo in the new Hellboy? They chose to change the character to white, the actor turned it down... now they have a Korean-American... and people are STILL not happy... how many TOP actors of a certain ethnicity are available at any one time... far fewer than if you go down to a general ethnicity like Asian-American...

By the list the chap gave, why was Pat Tanaka or Sato never World Champ? or Tiger Chung Lee? same reason Outback Jack, Ludvig Borga or Sly Grenier never were... they weren't good enough to be.

The reality is ANY talent has the chance of a world title, wherever they are from if they are good enough.. Unfortunately, WWE hasn't had the best record with ethnic champions, yet even now Nakamura is likely to win the title at HIAC...

Is it racist that no Englishman has yet held the title but an Irishman has? No... stupid on WWE's part but both times it was an option, Davey Boy and Regal themselves screwed it in some way... Regal, especially after that KOTR, win while he was GM... he was red hot but failed his drugs test.

WWE people are still actors in reality, so if a Canadian is playing "The Face Of America" or a Dutchman (Aliester Black) is playing a more American or British type character, does it matter? Surely the argument for equality is that everyone has equal chance... so if Ed Skrien is the right guy for the role, he should be able to have it... if Nakamura is the right guy to hold the belt he should have it, but neither guy should be forced down anyones throat... if you don't like the casting/choice, don't support it with your money. Simples
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  #50  
Old 09-30-2017, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THTRobtaylor View Post
The reality is ANY talent has the chance of a world title, wherever they are from if they are good enough
This is very true. In fact, someone did a study to see how long it takes talent to become main eventers. They found that it is essentially a crapshoot:

Quote:
I did a study once in an article for Fighting Spirit Magazine about new talent joining WWE and how long before they were a “main eventer”. I didn’t qualify whether business did well or not while they main evented, but rather just how look it took them to get to that point. What I learned was that it was essentially a crapshoot – the best strategy you could have was to bring as many people up as possible in a year because on average, the same percentage of people succeeded. My conclusion was that it’s tough to pick winners & losers – you’re better letting the wisdom of the masses start to see who connects and who works. We know Vince never saw Foley as a main eventer, but he ended up being the right guy at the right time. Same thing could be said for both Daniel Bryan and CM Punk.
This shows with people like Crews and Bliss. Both were brought up way too early. Yet, they went on opposite paths. One grew and the other stagnated. WWE can't force a superstar. While Reigns is getting a big backlash, he is popular. Jinder is being forced and the crowd reacted with not attending SD events. It is largely up to the individual if they can get over (there are exceptions). Austin, Rock, HHH and Mankind all had to deal with Russo booking and they managed to make their stuff great. Undertaker was not able to make his stuff work during that time (this would be the exception I mentioned earlier). You have to show WWE something to make them want to push you. Foreign or not. You may get a shit storyline but that isn't unique. A lot of people get shit. It is your job to do the best with what they give you.
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