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  #21  
Old 07-31-2017, 05:05 AM
d_henderson1810 d_henderson1810 is offline
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There is someone else I blame for WCW's demise- Eric Bischoff

As well as not reigning in Hogan and the NWO, he spent up big with Turner's money on things with little return.

I was in a bookshop one time, and read a chapter from Bischoff's book "Controversy Creates Cash". In this chapter, Bischoff harps on about how he blames the demise on WCW on management not letting him do a PPV called "New Year's Evil".

Bischoff claimed that "NYEvil" would be such a successful PPV, that it would revive the fortunes of WCW. The PPV was to be held on December 31, 2001, and would be a combined wrestling show/KISS concert. There would be a match, then KISS would perform a song, then a match, rinse and repeat. So KISS would perform one of their songs between each match. Bischoff was convinced that this would be a winner.

I'm not going to hang it on KISS. I was a fan, and wore the makeup and had their albums. But that was over forty years ago, back in the 70's. KISS are today a nostalgia act and have a cult following, and not big enough to entice today's audience, many of who weren't born when KISS were big, to pay money to attend or order a PPV, to see matches bracketed by songs by four old guys in makeup.

Now, this was a Bischoff idea, not Russo. Thankfully, WCW went under before the show could ever be done. But it sounded like the idea was rejected anyway, partly by Turner, who was sick of losing money on things that brought little return. Apparently, it cost a lot of money, for example, to get the rights from KISS, and to get Gene Simmons to design a wrestling character called "The Demon", who was played by Dale Torborg, and was scrapped after a few appearances for being a massive failure.

With ideas like this, it is no wonder WCW went under, and others contributed to WCW's demise. Russo wasn't the only one to have bad ideas.
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  #22  
Old 07-31-2017, 11:20 AM
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I feel Vince Russo would be quite good writing for reality TV. He knows each and every point reality TV needs to hit in 12 to 20 episodes so people can get emotionally invested.

For wrestling though, he was awful. I agree with his point that the match is not as important as the segment of television. Too many reviewers focus on the match and not the whole segment and how it came across. That's why you see so much of the 50/50 booking. Russo's execution though is awful. His focus is solely on one thing; ratings.

Vince Russo did not have the management skills and the talented roster he had in WWF to make his ideas work in WCW. In the WWF he was only focused on the creative side while Vince and co. were able to handle the day to day operations of the company. In WCW he was put in charge of all things WCW which he had no clue what to do. Russo knew ratings. He didn't understand the PPV market, advertisers, or any other money streams that come along with a television product.

Let's not forget his horrible ideas in the WWF from miscarriage angles, birthing hands, "choppy choppy", and the list goes on and on to WCW with "Oklahoma", "Swerve, bro!", Goldberg as a heel, extreme breaking of kayfabe, viagra on a pole, David Arquette as champion, putting himself as champion, etc.. There wasn't a payoff. It just turned off viewers who either switched to WWF, or gave up on wrestling entirely.

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Originally Posted by d_henderson1810 View Post
Another reason WCW died was because AOL bought Time Warner, and didn't want wrestling content (the "Attitude Era" in WWE had put wrestling in a negative light in the mainstream).

Also, Bischoff wouldn't stop wasting Turner's millions on "million-dollar giveaways" and KISS, and with WCW losing money, Turner agreed to dump it as an investment.
If WCW was still generating revenue when AOL bought Time Warner they would have kept it on or at least sold it for a high price. Losing millions and millions of dollars will make people want to get rid of your product in a hurry.
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  #23  
Old 07-31-2017, 12:51 PM
d_henderson1810 d_henderson1810 is offline
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Originally Posted by #tamale View Post
I feel Vince Russo would be quite good writing for reality TV. He knows each and every point reality TV needs to hit in 12 to 20 episodes so people can get emotionally invested.

For wrestling though, he was awful. I agree with his point that the match is not as important as the segment of television. Too many reviewers focus on the match and not the whole segment and how it came across. That's why you see so much of the 50/50 booking. Russo's execution though is awful. His focus is solely on one thing; ratings.

Vince Russo did not have the management skills and the talented roster he had in WWF to make his ideas work in WCW. In the WWF he was only focused on the creative side while Vince and co. were able to handle the day to day operations of the company. In WCW he was put in charge of all things WCW which he had no clue what to do. Russo knew ratings. He didn't understand the PPV market, advertisers, or any other money streams that come along with a television product.

Let's not forget his horrible ideas in the WWF from miscarriage angles, birthing hands, "choppy choppy", and the list goes on and on to WCW with "Oklahoma", "Swerve, bro!", Goldberg as a heel, extreme breaking of kayfabe, viagra on a pole, David Arquette as champion, putting himself as champion, etc.. There wasn't a payoff. It just turned off viewers who either switched to WWF, or gave up on wrestling entirely.



If WCW was still generating revenue when AOL bought Time Warner they would have kept it on or at least sold it for a high price. Losing millions and millions of dollars will make people want to get rid of your product in a hurry.

Yeah, because "Dr Heiney", Triple H making love to a dead Katie Vick in a funeral home, or having Trish Stratus bark like a dog were also Russo's ideas in WWE. Oh, hang on, they weren't.

No, instead these were the idea of Vince McMahon, the so-called "filter" of Vince Russo. Like every idea WWE has done since has been better than anything Russo offered.

Maybe a heel Goldberg would have been interesting. It would have set up new opponents, and put a new, fresh twist on the character. I bet if he got paid enough, he would pay a heel, since money is how Goldberg rolls. As the Million-Dollar Man says "Everybody has a price!".

I agree that Russo needed help managing the company. WCW should have provided people to run the day-to-daystuff, and Russo run the shows and book the matches. It's like my late father's business. He was great with customers, but needed someone to manage the books and money going in and out of the business. No-one can do it all on their own, but that was WCW's failing, not Russo's, that he wasn't given help.

Where was Bischoff? He could deal with sponsors, advertisers, etc. He had a production company. But he was probably too busy spending Turner's money, soothing Hogan's bruised ego that someone told him off, or playing with his KISS make-up kit, to help Russo run a company he and Hogan had already run into the ground before Vince Russo got there to give the last rites.

Also, AOL weren't interested in wrestling, and, unless it was making millions, they wanted to dump it. It had been losing money for years, by kowtowing to Hogan and co, Russo's ideas, AND Bischoff spending money that wasn't his. All of them are responsible for WCW's demise, not just Russo.

Last edited by d_henderson1810 : 07-31-2017 at 12:56 PM.
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  #24  
Old 07-31-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by d_henderson1810 View Post
Yeah, because "Dr Heiney", Triple H making love to a dead Katie Vick in a funeral home, or having Trish Stratus bark like a dog were also Russo's ideas in WWE. Oh, hang on, they weren't.

No, instead these were the idea of Vince McMahon, the so-called "filter" of Vince Russo. Like every idea WWE has done since has been better than anything Russo offered.
Never stated those were great angles either. Those were bad as well. Russo is not the only individual who has had bad ideas. He does happen to be associated with the worst of them though. As bad as WWE can get at times, it was nothing compared to what Russo brought to the table.

Or are we just going to forget the time Goldberg walked out of a match and refused to take a powerbomb from Nash in a "shoot".

Quote:
Maybe a heel Goldberg would have been interesting. It would have set up new opponents, and put a new, fresh twist on the character. I bet if he got paid enough, he would pay a heel, since money is how Goldberg rolls. As the Million-Dollar Man says "Everybody has a price!".
Maybe, but it didn't work because Goldberg's intentions as a heel were never clear.

Quote:
Where was Bischoff? He could deal with sponsors, advertisers, etc. He had a production company. But he was probably too busy spending Turner's money, soothing Hogan's bruised ego that someone told him off, or playing with his KISS make-up kit, to help Russo run a company he and Hogan had already run into the ground before Vince Russo got there to give the last rites.
Bischoff was fired to bring in Russo. Then when Bischoff returned he was strictly a creative consultant.

Quote:
Also, AOL weren't interested in wrestling, and, unless it was making millions, they wanted to dump it. It had been losing money for years, by kowtowing to Hogan and co, Russo's ideas, AND Bischoff spending money that wasn't his. All of them are responsible for WCW's demise, not just Russo.
Which was my point. If a subsidiary is making profits the company will keep you around. It's hard to justify your existence when you are losing around 50 million dollars. People need to understand that noone wanted to distribute WCW on their networks because of the bad taste it left in the mouths of Turner. You are right though. It wasn't the fault of one person. Russo did not help, and further pushed the company into oblivion.
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  #25  
Old 07-31-2017, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by d_henderson1810 View Post
I agree with not liking short matches or run-ins, but WWE has done this too. Dusty Rhodes as booker was famous for "run-in" screwy finishes. Russo isn't the first to do it, but he did admittedly did it too much. I don't like PPVs with too many run-ins or segments
i understand sometimes that a run in should occur, but i watched an old episode of WCW Nitro (when Russo ran it) and there was a Hugh Morris match and for some unknown reason, Hugh's dad ran in which was just stupid. and that last sentence is my HUGE issue with him, the Bret Hart vs. Chris Benoit Mayhem PPV main event had 3 run ins and ruined a great match.

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I think Hogan rotted WCW so much by his presence, that no-one could have saved it.
There was a time though (when Russo first took over) that Hogan wasnt even on TV, so Russo could've saved it...if he didnt have such bad booking...i still dont understand his reasoning for even thinking about putting the title on Tank Abbott.

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Originally Posted by d_henderson1810 View Post
Like I said, I think blaming Russo for alone destroying WCW.
No, Russo didnt destroy WCW alone....i still put 100% blame on Time Warner/AOL. if they would've sold it to Eric Bischoff and let him either 1) use the tv time or 2) if Eric would've had a tv channel for WCW, then WCW could (key word is could) be alive, just in TNA/GFW shape. i dont blame any person or wrestler for destroying the company, i do blame them for hurting the company and losing the ratings war to WWE...in that case i blame it on Bischoff, Hogan, Nash and Russo in a 25% way...but Time Warner/AOL destroyed it.

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Russo once said in an interview that he would have pushed Benoit and the others, and they would have got opportunities while he was there.
if that's the case, why did Russo even suggest giving the title to Tank!!?? when Souled Out came and there were injuries to both Bret and Jarrett, Russo should've given the title shot to Benoit and Sid and let them have a great match, then the next day go with Benoit as Champion (who might've stayed if Russo was still there).

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Originally Posted by d_henderson1810 View Post
Kidman got a program against Hogan, and was pushed for a few weeks (until Hogan politicked against him).
i just never liked that story with him and Hogan and felt Kidman should NEVER turned heel and should've chased the US title, Hogan should've feuded with Mike Awesome.

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Originally Posted by d_henderson1810 View Post
Vince Russo putting the belt on himself was a parody of Vince McMahon winning the WWE Title on "Smackdown" a short time earlier. Arquette got mainstream attention for winning the belt, which was Russo's intention (It was also done to promote the wrestling movie Arquette did.
Arquette winning the belt was just stupid, if they wanted to promote the movie, they should've let Arquette run the show for a night or something and let DDP hold the title....as for Russo doing a parody of McMahon, the big difference is McMahon looks the part of a champion at least. Russo doesnt look like he can beat a guy even Norman Smiley....Vince McMahon, however, looks like he could beat some midcard guy....plus when McMahon gets in a feud, he usually loses in the end of it. Russo though retired Flair.

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The Cruiserweight belt on Oklahoma is no more ridiculous than Hornswoggle being Cruiserweight champion (and beating all the other cruiserweights in a gauntlet match, to boot).
dont get me wrong, Hornswoggle as champion was stupid, but at that time, the title was pretty much in RIP mode....with that said, Swoggle was a small guy and did make a weight limit, but Oklahoma was 1) A mocking of JR and 2) he was overweight.

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Constant title changes- The Rock v Mankind, which was around the same time, changed the belt four times. Jinder Mahal is the first WWE Champion in six months to retain his belt at a PPV (it changed every month between RR and Extreme Rules). Blame this on the fickle fans who get bored with anyone being champ too long. It has happened for years.
as for Rock and Mankind...firstly that was Russo's booking...BUT at least both those guys were in a red hot feud...there was no need for the title runs of...1) Jarrett...2) Flair.....3) Vacated to Jarrett.....4) Nash wins.....5) Nash gives it to Flair....6) Jarrett. i'm ok with a title change if it makes sense, Mankind deserved his runs and the feud with the Rock was so great...but Nash and Jarrett wasnt very hot...as for the Mahal run after the other runs, i felt that was stupid too...AJ should've kept it and lost it to Bray in the Chamber. and i hated Orton winning the belt. i'm not saying McMahon is the best booker in the world, he has his issues too, but there are times when he will let a guy keep a belt for a while (like CM Punk). Russo though (in WCW) did alot of hot shooting the WCW belt..even when Booker T. was champion and i really didnt like getting the title off him like they did because i felt he was a red hot type of champion at the time.
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  #26  
Old 07-31-2017, 11:48 PM
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As far as Russo's nonsense in WCW goes I think one of the biggest ones was turning Goldberg Heel at The Great American Bash 2000 (horrible Show by the way). Why in god's name he thought turning their biggest star into a hated Heel was a good idea I will never understand.

The New Blood had potential but it was a mess from the get go.
agree about Goldberg, turning him heel was a bad move....i think that was on Russo, but i also wont be shocked if Bischoff did that too...i wish i knew who came up with that one. As for the New Blood angle, i felt that it was too big a group...i think Russo should've had his heels and Bischoff should've had his guys and it should've been just 5 guys and let those guys feud....while the other guys did their thing. Kidman shouldnt have been in the New Blood, he should've been a midcarder doing his own thing and getting fans on his side chasing the US title.

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Another reason WCW died was because AOL bought Time Warner, and didn't want wrestling content (the "Attitude Era" in WWE had put wrestling in a negative light in the mainstream).
to me that is THE reason WCW died, AOL/Time Warner. they didnt want the show and they sold it to WWE instead of a guy who would've attempted to do something with it.

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Originally Posted by #tamale View Post
I feel Vince Russo would be quite good writing for reality TV.
For wrestling though, he was awful. I agree with his point that the match is not as important as the segment of television.
If WCW was still generating revenue when AOL bought Time Warner they would have kept it on or at least sold it for a high price. Losing millions and millions of dollars will make people want to get rid of your product in a hurry.
i agree with Russo...i dont think he's a bad writer, just bad at booking wrestling matches. as a story teller, he's not bad there because he's got insane ideas that can work, but booking matches he's bad at because there's too much things going on during the match. As for AOL/Time Warner, they could've sold it to Bischoff or another promoter, but they wanted it off of them as fast as they could because they didnt like or get wrestling. plus it wasnt getting them money, BUT according to some wrestlers, WCW Nitro was their number one rated show.

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Maybe a heel Goldberg would have been interesting. It would have set up new opponents, and put a new, fresh twist on the character.
the problem with Goldberg's heel turn was 1) he was their top face...2) it then left their top faces being Nash and Hogan (yeah i figured you wont like that). i would say Steiner, but he turned heel a month later!!! Goldberg turning heel to me confuses me because i could see Eric being behind this (see Hogan and Bash at the Beach).
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  #27  
Old 08-02-2017, 06:37 AM
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agree about Goldberg, turning him heel was a bad move....i think that was on Russo, but i also wont be shocked if Bischoff did that too...i wish i knew who came up with that one. As for the New Blood angle, i felt that it was too big a group...i think Russo should've had his heels and Bischoff should've had his guys and it should've been just 5 guys and let those guys feud....while the other guys did their thing. Kidman shouldnt have been in the New Blood, he should've been a midcarder doing his own thing and getting fans on his side chasing the US title.


to me that is THE reason WCW died, AOL/Time Warner. they didnt want the show and they sold it to WWE instead of a guy who would've attempted to do something with it.


i agree with Russo...i dont think he's a bad writer, just bad at booking wrestling matches. as a story teller, he's not bad there because he's got insane ideas that can work, but booking matches he's bad at because there's too much things going on during the match. As for AOL/Time Warner, they could've sold it to Bischoff or another promoter, but they wanted it off of them as fast as they could because they didnt like or get wrestling. plus it wasnt getting them money, BUT according to some wrestlers, WCW Nitro was their number one rated show.


the problem with Goldberg's heel turn was 1) he was their top face...2) it then left their top faces being Nash and Hogan (yeah i figured you wont like that). i would say Steiner, but he turned heel a month later!!! Goldberg turning heel to me confuses me because i could see Eric being behind this (see Hogan and Bash at the Beach).
I think Sting was still around then, and a top face. I would have liked to have seen a face Sting v heel Goldberg feud. That could get some buys.

I remember them having Goldberg v Sting one time on PPV, but that happened with no build, and came about because Ric Flair thought of the match while in the mental institution, according to the storyline.
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  #28  
Old 08-02-2017, 03:47 PM
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I think Sting was still around then, and a top face. I would have liked to have seen a face Sting v heel Goldberg feud. That could get some buys.

I remember them having Goldberg v Sting one time on PPV, but that happened with no build, and came about because Ric Flair thought of the match while in the mental institution, according to the storyline.
Goldberg vs. Sting happened at Halloween Havoc and while it was ok, Sting is only one guy. i think Goldberg was a much better face and the heels should've been guys the fans can actually hate. the fans loved Goldberg too much for them to turn him at the time....again, i dont know if turning Goldberg was completely on Russo (because this smells like a Bischoff idea too, see Hogan and Bash at the Beach 96), but to me, they should've left him face and had him feud with other heels...but i understood why they did it, just dont agree with it.
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  #29  
Old 08-02-2017, 06:50 PM
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I remember giving up on WCW around the Russo era. I tuned in and there were 150 stories going on at once, even overlapping each other. Russo had Elizabeth in a dog collar and was leading her around like his slave on a chain. Hogan was doing some strange Stone Cold Clone who drove a muscle car and acted tough...not sure how long he was doing that or it was just one episode. Every match had 12 interruptions due to the crazy amount of over story telling going on. This is around the time when Russo really threw his name in the garbage with an unwatchable program.
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Old 08-02-2017, 08:19 PM
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If you're interested in Nitro, I would start with the shows that took place a couple of weeks before Bash at the Beach 96. Watch those to the end of the year and pretty much anything in 97 was good. Honestly, a lot of 98 was also good, but they definitely started to slip in 98.

As for Raw, I'd start with the Raw after Badd Blood 97 when Kane first came in. From that point all the way through 01, Raw was must see TV. That's my opinion anyway.
Agreed on WCW. For WWF, I'd start in spring '97 right after Wrestlemania. Bret Hart's heel turn, forming the Hart Foundation stable were phenomenal. Shawn Michaels character also underwent a major transformation in late summer and formed DX. I think those angles are worth watching.
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