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  #1  
Old 01-27-2017, 07:46 AM
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Default Wrestling VS Sports Entertainment

I kinda wanted to start a thread on this subject for a long time especially since it's becoming apparent more and more that WWE is trying to be both at the same time and i wondering is there a way that both version could co-exist in the same company on a single brand or do you have to just choose one or the other and hope it works when a performer moves up.

Let take the WWE hierarchy as exemple.

Right now You got NXT which is a mix of wrestling and sports entertainment which lately the sports entertainment aspect is becoming more prominent with all the over the top characters

Then you have smackdown and raw which are more sports entertainment then wrestling.

But you got also those special tournament on the network which are more wrestling oriented.

So what you get is this weird mix of fans coming to you shows because you got you're wrestling fans that really cares about the move and everything going in the matches and then you got you're sport entertainment fans that couldn'T care less about what going on in the ring, they just want to be entertain.

And i think that'S why WWE as been having problem connecting with fans because they have 2 differents vision of what WWE should be. Vince Wants the company to be sports entertainment geared toward families and HHH wants it to be more wrestling oriented to please the adult demographic that might not like the over the top characters, i think that why somebody like roman reigns as been struggling to connect with fans, because the wrestling fans that watch the WWE network and see the more wrestling based programming they have on the network expect to see that out of somebody like reigns and since he'S didn'T do the indy's like a lot of the nxt stars and some of the wwe guys that HHH'S as been sigining lately, they think he doesn'T belong in the position he'S in.

I know you can't please everyone, i for one i'm more of a sports entertainment fan then a wrestling fan to be honest. I can't watch somebody wrestle a great match if all he does is wrestled even if the match is the greatest match in the world, i can't watch it. I need to be invested in the match which i think sports entertainment is great in doing, creating characters that you will get invested in and will love. Being able to tell a good story and not just have a good match in the ring because you got 2 great performers. But that's just me i guess

In the end i think that both version of the product can't really co-exist under the same brand, you can try to please a certain faction of you're audience by giving them wrestling on the network but don'T expect a backlash when these same fan that you gather too turn on you when you give them sports entertainment on your main brands.
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  #2  
Old 01-28-2017, 01:36 AM
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Default

Me and my older brother are both huge fans. I lean more towards the wrestling side, and hlm more towards the promo side.

When we watched wrestling together when we were younger he would fast forward through the matches and only watch the promos. I was dumbfounded by that. And on the opposite side, he thought the matches were boring.

As both of us have grown up though I think we have both become more "rounded" as fans. He was a very big fan of the CwC. And I realise far more the importance the characters, gimmicks and diversity in styles.

TNA 2011-2013 in my opinion had the absolute best of both worlds combining great storylines with great wrestling.

What I will say is that I'd rather watch a great match than a great promo. But I'd rather watch a shit promo over a boring match.
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  #3  
Old 01-28-2017, 03:42 AM
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Wrestling side rather see good five star matches than some clown shooting his mouth off for 20 minutes and a bunch of backstage skits.
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  #4  
Old 01-28-2017, 01:48 PM
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Generally speaking, I prefer a little dose of the sports entertainment stuff while most of the focus is on the wrestling and promos. When I think of sports entertainment, I think of usually lame attempts at humor that mostly fall flat via backstage skits or shenanigans in the ring. Sports entertainment is more often stuff like Hornswoggle, DX in the late 2000s, R-Truth & Goldust and New Day getting in a "time machine", it's just generally doesn't resonate with me. Sometimes, sports entertainment is stuff like Enzo out there doing his thing, New Day doing their usual schtick and that's fine as long as it doesn't drag on pointlessly.

To me, sports entertainment was at its worst in WWE during the late 2000s when you had stuff like DX in every other segment, DX hanging out with Hornswoggle, the "little people's court" skit, etc. I mean, in 2009, WWE was damn near unwatchable for me because so much focus was on the sports entertainment aspect and it wasn't good sports entertainment stuff. I mean, watching Shawn Michaels and Triple H, with Trips being almost 40 and HBK well into his 40s, trying to act like a mix of high school freshman and 19 year old frat boys was painful at times and it made them look more pathetic than anything else.

I enjoy promos, though I prefer the way they do them in NXT in which they're out there for usually 7 to 10 minutes and that's it. They don't try to jam in 3 or 4 other guys into the mix and drag it out to 20 minutes. In my view, if a guy can't get across the point of what he's doing, what he wants to say and why he's doing what he does in 10 minutes 95% of the time, then he's someone who probably shouldn't be given mic time in the first place. That's not to say that there aren't situations, matches, programs, etc. where 20 minutes may be required, maybe even more, but I think those situations don't happen but a very small handful of times in a year.
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  #5  
Old 01-28-2017, 02:35 PM
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You can't use these terms as a different word IMO. Wrestling is Sports Entertainment. It's the same thing. It has to be the same thing actually. And it has to be balanced in a 50/50 ratio. When you have both is when you create magic, for example, Undertaker vs HBK from Wrestlemania 25.

I don't understand why Vince doesn't want the term "wrestling". Wrestling is sports entertainment by default.

The story you see in the ring, the psychology, the fake blood, the fake injuries that wrestlers sell. That's entertainment. It's not just wrestling. The promos for the match, the story, that's also not just entertainment. That's also wrestling. You have to sell the wrestling match.

There's no VS. It's wrong. You need "and", not "vs".

The problem with WWE, is that they forget the term "sports". That's the real deal. You can't have Undertaker burying people in 2017 and sell him as a "dead" guy. WWE needs to move with the times. NXT has been successful, because it's modern. They treat the matches like fights. They move with the times. Even the Demon King worked. But they never sold the Deom King as something that exists. They sold it like a gimmick.

UFC is also sports entertainment.

The problem isn't the "entertainment" side of things, but the way they choose to do it.
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  #6  
Old 04-03-2017, 08:00 AM
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Pro Wrestling IS ALWAYS Sports Entertainment. What drives interest ? Storylines. Fans dont watch matches simply based on the participants, they watch based on their investment in the storyline between the wrestlers.

No doubt storyline sometimes drives interest in real sports, as in rivalries between teams, coaches on the hot seat, older players pushing for one last great run, young players on their first big run, but ultimately in real sports viewership rests mainly on the competition itself, an AFC Title Game between New England & Pgh will have enhanced numbers with the storylines surrounding Bill Belicheck's legacy, Tom Brady's suspension, Ben Roethlisberger's quest for 3rd championship, but this game would draw huge numbers even if the participants had no real compelling side stories or rivalry, say Kansas City vs Tenn.

That isnt the case in wrestling as rating point out. Matches that draw the best numbers always have compelling storylines between the participants, and they will draw more interest regardless of entertainment value or match quality compared to excellent matches accompanied by little or no storyline.

Look at the biggest stars, aka the biggest draws ever in the industry, at least post 1980...
Hulk Hogan
Ric Flair
Dusty Rhodes
Randy Savage
Steve Austin
The Rock
Sting
Undertaker
John Cena

Add in HHH, HBK, Brett Hart, Goldberg, Ultimate Warrior, Roddy Piper, Andre The Giant, Lex Luger, Randy Orton, Kevin Nash....

You get a lot of big house shows, a lot of big TV ratings, and a ton of very successful PPV. The charisma of the above is un matched, even Hart, the "weak link" in the above group in terms of promos and charisma, still was "good on the mic" and connected personally with younger fans, plus did a great job at working his in ring performance ability into his gimmick, enhancing his character. Some of these guys were supremely talented in terms of in ring ability, some were average in comparison, some were extremely limited to be nice. Ultimately, while "match quality" certainly helped burnish the gimmicks and storylines of some of the above, it didnt hold back the others. Ultimately their success was in their ability to translate their characters into compelling storylines, storylines fans would become interested in.

Nobody ever paid money to watch the great quality of matches Warrior, Hogan, Goldberg, or even Luger put on, but a ton of people paid a lot of money to watch their characters in the culmination of major storylines. Fact is, large numbers of fans never tuned in to watch great matches guys like HHH, HBK, Flair, Hart, Austin had, but they did pay to see these guys in the culmination of major storylines, sometimes delivering great matches in the process (HHH-Taker, HBK-Hart, Flair-Steamboat) and sometimes delivering very average ones, albeit in popular storylines.

Wrestling is a soap opera, storyline driven entertainment. You can present it with varying degrees of over the top characters, unusual gimmicks, etc, but it is ALWAYS Sports Entertainment.
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  #7  
Old 04-04-2017, 05:49 AM
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I don't see why you can't have both and make it work to be honest with you. Wrestling is a neverending soap opera. Characters will come in and out of story lines, some are a good and some are bad. It will always been seen as the ultimate good vs evil and the good guy over a period of time will always triumph in the end.

Yes NXT is different because they don't develop the story lines down there, they develop the characters that will eventually insert themselves into the ongoing story lines on the main roster. That's why there is more of a wrestling feel than sports entertainment.

The WWE's main problem is that they have decided in their infinite wisdom who the hero's and who the villain's will be, and since this is a fan generated sport so to speak, the fans who buy the tickets to watch it don't agree.

For example, fans have been wanting to cheer Bray Wyatt for a long time now, the WWE however refuses to give him a face turn because it won't fit with the character created for him. He has no problem connecting with the fans, but the connection would be stronger if the fans could actually cheer the guy but they are supposed to boo him. Same with Styles, he's supposed to be a heel but again the fans want to cheer him. The only reason I can think of is the fans don't like the heroes the WWE has created for them and have created who they want.

Don't buy this someone isn't getting over because they weren't in the indies argument at all. Most fans I know don't give a damm where someone comes from whether it be the indies, TNA or homegrown WWE. Which the WWE doesn't do much of anymore. Once they set foot in a WWE ring they are WWE, sure their past is what gives them experience, but just because someone comes from NJPW why should that be used against them.

If they WWE didn't go and hire from other promotions then you wouldn't have most of your main event picture right now. Balor, Styles, Ambrose, Rollins, Daniel Bryan, Samoa Joe, Zayn, Anderson, Gallows, Nakamure, Asuka to name a few. Can you believe what the roster would look like without them, I don't even want to think about it.
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Old 04-04-2017, 02:37 PM
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While it all comes under Sports Entertainment, I think you have to look at it having two distinct products or genres. You have your traditional, athletic based wrestling with storylines like a Ring Of Honor/Evolve/Indy Scene... and the post 97 Soap Opera version of WWE, complete with evil bosses, romances etc that TNA has tried to copy.

WWE right now seems to be recognizing the difference for the first time and trying to provide something that will keep fans of both genres on its network. Indeed WWE appears to be trying to become the new NWA type "body" for wrestling... if they buy ROH then it's about keeping those first set of fans happy and allowing seperation for their more preferred, soap product under their own branding.

This Wrestlemania seemed the most distinct yet with the seperation... you had the soap stuff, but also some strong athletic based matches in the mix (including the pre-show)

Fans look at the AE with rose tinted glasses (or blood tinted) when reality is it was the MOST soapy of the WWE ever... it was just not kid friendly. As kids, they saw it and could be edgy/piss their parents off... now they're adults and want that same edginess...so they gravitate to the more athletic product and use WWE as something to show their own kids.
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:18 PM
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Being a wwe fans for over 30 years, I always been more partial to the sports entertainment side then the wrestling side. I rather see 2 guys tell a story within the match then see a 5 star match that are just high sot for the sake of high spot.

But the question is, can both be integrated together and work. Right now I think it can because fan can pretty much pick and choose what they want to see. If you like more the sports entertainment aspect, then you watch the main shows if you like the wrestling side, go watch those show on the network. Rigt now, wwe is trying to have the monopoly on everything wrestling, that's why wwe is doing all those different product. The only problem you might have is when a nxt wrestler goes from the nxt to the main roster and have to be more sports entertainment, most of them have trouble adapting to the new style.

Outside of that, I think both can live together without problem,
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Old 04-07-2017, 04:17 AM
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I can't watch an olympic wrestling match and be entertained, to be honest. That is pure technical wrestling. I enjoy "sports entertainment" because I like the storylines and characters. I like the idea that in general, they are fighting for a reason, and doing things that are entertaining rather than simply showing their technical prowress.

With regards to this issue and NXT, one thing that people need to understand is that it's meant as a developmental thing to develop these guys and girls into sports entertainers, NOT olympic wrestlers. Thus, when the IWC gets mad about how someone is booked in NXT or that they're not getting a chance or whatever, being a technically sound wrestler doesn't necessarily automatically make someone a great pro wrestler/sports entertainer. There's so much more to success in the PRO WRESTLING business than being great from a technical standpoint. The purpose is to entertain the majority of people consuming the product. People watching Super Dragon fight in a high school gym with 200 people watch doesn't constitute the "majority" of pro wrestling consumers/fans. At the end of the day it's a business and they are trying to make the most money. Sports Entertainment makes more money than simply actual wrestling in its purest form.
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