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  #21  
Old 01-24-2017, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by RedRegan1005 View Post
The mixed reaction argument has only really worked for John Cena, because it turned into a true 50/50 split that was also a strong reaction that has lead to some amazing atmospheres when Cena was paired with someone who the anti-cena audience was really hot for, like CM Punk and AJ Styles. Now WWE wants to use the 50/50 excuse with Reigns as a cop out. However with Reigns its not a hot crowd with a split reaction. A lot of times to me it seems more like a third of boos, a third of cheers, and a third of I could care less.

WWE lucked out with the John Cena enigma, and I don't see it happening again. Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, The Rock, all sold merch and were way over with cheers as baby faces. Pro Wrestling usually works best when you have a talented entertaining heel who the crowd loves to hate, and a talented entertaining face who the crowd loves to cheer as he gives that heel what they had coming. History has showed that it usually makes the most money, and the best product.
This and then some. The biggest difference between Cena and Reigns is that Cena was massively over before the boo's started happening. Even now I don't think that most of the people who are booing him really mean it. Cena hasn't changed his gimmick in years because it does sell at the merchandise stands. Where an adult will buy a shirt, a kid will get his parents to buy a shirt, hat, wristbands, necklace and towel. In other words the whole nine yards. An adult will spend about $25.00 the kids want three times as much, and the parents buy it. So the WWE is quite happy with Cena staying as he is because he is one of their biggest cash cows, and will most likely be till he retires.

Reigns on the other hand sells to women and some of the kids. I see more kids dressed like Cena than Reigns. Although at SS a lot of women were wearing Bayley shirts so her stuff is starting to move also. Some fans are desperate for another Daniel Bryan and they've found that Bayley fits that role. With her being a lifelong fan like some of them, they can identify with her. The more they play that up the more shirts fly out the door.

Vince might have wanted Reigns as the next John Cena, but the fans don't, and you don't want your next top babyface getting boo'd out of the building every night. When you have to edit out the boo's that should tell you something. I'm just wondering if those that do boo, I'm not one of them more the type who sits quietly, stopped doing it tomorrow, just how loud would the cheers actually be. I don't think they would be as loud as some think they would.
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  #22  
Old 01-24-2017, 08:47 AM
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Something just occurred to me and I am curious what you guys think...

It is certainly the day and age we live in that affects the way people react to the traditional faces/heels, no question. But, might another reason be the difference in the performance of today's heels?

I can't speak to wrestling further back than the Golden Era. I know of names, feuds, title reigns and other things that happened before my time, but I didn't see it for myself. I know only by reading, which is great, but doesn't always paint an accurate picture. So, I won't speak to heels of the early 80s-70s or further back--maybe some of you can help with that.

But, I was thinking specifically of Rowdy Roddy Piper, who was the top heel when I was introduced to the WWF in the mid 80s. Roddy could (and did) get the crowd so fired up against him with his antics and behavior. From what I see, he is still listed at the top or near the top of every all-time heel list on the internet. Now, think of Roddy's in-ring performance. What were his signature moves? Could he have ever put on a 5-star match? His brilliance as a top heel had very little to do with his wrestling, in my opinion. Think of other heels during that era--Honky Tonk Man as another example--and try to think of what his moves were. Or think of a really great wrestling match of his. I can't think of either. His heat was based on behavior and antics, not wrestling talent, and the crowd hated this guy. His sneaky and immoral ways of hanging on to the IC belt for so long is what made him a top heel, not his wrestling talent.

Now, there are exceptions, as the Million Dollar Man also tops many all-time heel lists and Ted DiBiase was no slouch in the ring. But, I am wondering if the vastly improved in-ring wrestling talent of today's heels has anything to do with them being harder to hate these days. I still think there are people who will boo the faces and cheer the heels for no other reason than wanting to throw a wrench into the plans of what they perceive as being told what to do. But, for other people who haven't quite made up their mind and are open to cheering the traditional face and booing the traditional heel when appropriate, are today's heels easier to like (or harder to hate) because they are so much better in the ring overall?

Again, it is a different time and I understand that. But, in a vacuum, is there any merit to the idea that a heel who does eye gouges and below the belt shots to gain the advantage, followed by basic kicks and punches and body slams, while blowing snots at the crowd or negatively gesturing to the crowd or praising Iran or the USSR (the heel of yesteryear) rather than a heel who puts on a wrestling clinic while sprinkling in some heel antics (several heels of today) had a better chance of being booed heavily? Basically, does the superior in-ring performance of today's wrestlers make it easier to like a character you are not "supposed to"?
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  #23  
Old 01-24-2017, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeenanGorilla View Post
Something just occurred to me and I am curious what you guys think...

It is certainly the day and age we live in that affects the way people react to the traditional faces/heels, no question. But, might another reason be the difference in the performance of today's heels?

I can't speak to wrestling further back than the Golden Era. I know of names, feuds, title reigns and other things that happened before my time, but I didn't see it for myself. I know only by reading, which is great, but doesn't always paint an accurate picture. So, I won't speak to heels of the early 80s-70s or further back--maybe some of you can help with that.

But, I was thinking specifically of Rowdy Roddy Piper, who was the top heel when I was introduced to the WWF in the mid 80s. Roddy could (and did) get the crowd so fired up against him with his antics and behavior. From what I see, he is still listed at the top or near the top of every all-time heel list on the internet. Now, think of Roddy's in-ring performance. What were his signature moves? Could he have ever put on a 5-star match? His brilliance as a top heel had very little to do with his wrestling, in my opinion. Think of other heels during that era--Honky Tonk Man as another example--and try to think of what his moves were. Or think of a really great wrestling match of his. I can't think of either. His heat was based on behavior and antics, not wrestling talent, and the crowd hated this guy. His sneaky and immoral ways of hanging on to the IC belt for so long is what made him a top heel, not his wrestling talent.

Now, there are exceptions, as the Million Dollar Man also tops many all-time heel lists and Ted DiBiase was no slouch in the ring. But, I am wondering if the vastly improved in-ring wrestling talent of today's heels has anything to do with them being harder to hate these days. I still think there are people who will boo the faces and cheer the heels for no other reason than wanting to throw a wrench into the plans of what they perceive as being told what to do. But, for other people who haven't quite made up their mind and are open to cheering the traditional face and booing the traditional heel when appropriate, are today's heels easier to like (or harder to hate) because they are so much better in the ring overall?

Again, it is a different time and I understand that. But, in a vacuum, is there any merit to the idea that a heel who does eye gouges and below the belt shots to gain the advantage, followed by basic kicks and punches and body slams, while blowing snots at the crowd or negatively gesturing to the crowd or praising Iran or the USSR (the heel of yesteryear) rather than a heel who puts on a wrestling clinic while sprinkling in some heel antics (several heels of today) had a better chance of being booed heavily? Basically, does the superior in-ring performance of today's wrestlers make it easier to like a character you are not "supposed to"?
I agree with you.

The superior in-ring performance does tend to make someone like me respect a wrestler even if he's a heel. Examples can be Kevin Owens, AJ Styles or Samoa Joe. These three are great in the ring and are heels too. Do they get booed like a heel? Nopes, they don't because the audience respects them now.

A couple of days ago, I read what AJ Styles said about it. He said that he makes sure to do everything he can do to get heel heat but still the respect overcomes the alignment of the wrestler.

These three can still get enormous heel heat if they screw an over sympathetic babyface like Daniel Bryan. But against Cena or Reigns? Not viable.
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  #24  
Old 01-24-2017, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeenanGorilla View Post
Something just occurred to me and I am curious what you guys think...

It is certainly the day and age we live in that affects the way people react to the traditional faces/heels, no question. But, might another reason be the difference in the performance of today's heels?

I can't speak to wrestling further back than the Golden Era. I know of names, feuds, title reigns and other things that happened before my time, but I didn't see it for myself. I know only by reading, which is great, but doesn't always paint an accurate picture. So, I won't speak to heels of the early 80s-70s or further back--maybe some of you can help with that.

But, I was thinking specifically of Rowdy Roddy Piper, who was the top heel when I was introduced to the WWF in the mid 80s. Roddy could (and did) get the crowd so fired up against him with his antics and behavior. From what I see, he is still listed at the top or near the top of every all-time heel list on the internet. Now, think of Roddy's in-ring performance. What were his signature moves? Could he have ever put on a 5-star match? His brilliance as a top heel had very little to do with his wrestling, in my opinion. Think of other heels during that era--Honky Tonk Man as another example--and try to think of what his moves were. Or think of a really great wrestling match of his. I can't think of either. His heat was based on behavior and antics, not wrestling talent, and the crowd hated this guy. His sneaky and immoral ways of hanging on to the IC belt for so long is what made him a top heel, not his wrestling talent.

Now, there are exceptions, as the Million Dollar Man also tops many all-time heel lists and Ted DiBiase was no slouch in the ring. But, I am wondering if the vastly improved in-ring wrestling talent of today's heels has anything to do with them being harder to hate these days. I still think there are people who will boo the faces and cheer the heels for no other reason than wanting to throw a wrench into the plans of what they perceive as being told what to do. But, for other people who haven't quite made up their mind and are open to cheering the traditional face and booing the traditional heel when appropriate, are today's heels easier to like (or harder to hate) because they are so much better in the ring overall?

Again, it is a different time and I understand that. But, in a vacuum, is there any merit to the idea that a heel who does eye gouges and below the belt shots to gain the advantage, followed by basic kicks and punches and body slams, while blowing snots at the crowd or negatively gesturing to the crowd or praising Iran or the USSR (the heel of yesteryear) rather than a heel who puts on a wrestling clinic while sprinkling in some heel antics (several heels of today) had a better chance of being booed heavily? Basically, does the superior in-ring performance of today's wrestlers make it easier to like a character you are not "supposed to"?
A lot of what you say here is true. But I also believe it comes down to three things, respect for their performance, an ability to identify with the wrestler and just the overall likability. Each performer can go out into the ring and do the exact same moves, but it depends on how the fans perceive them.

Take the Miz for example. The guy is a natural heel. He doesn't even have to open his mouth and he's getting major heat. He comes off as a total wanker to everyone but his wife. Even his entrance is enough to make you want to hate him, and some do. Personally he's great at what he does because it doesn't seem forced, he does it so naturally it's almost scary. I've seen him on other TV shows and in interviews and he seems like a genuinely nice guy, but in the ring he has a total change, and even though I know he's a nice guy I want to see him get beat.

Daniel Bryan was a natural face. The fans identified with him like he was their brother or next door neighbour. Everyone knows someone like him. He's not a big guy but worked his ass off to get where he was, and people went along with it. When he was trying to be a heel it didn't feel natural simply because that's not the kind of person he is. A lot of it has to do with what and who you are as a person.

And maybe that's the reason some of the wrestlers Vince wants to get over can't, the fans whether they belong to the IWC or not, realize that it's not natural and turn away from it. They might want to support a Daniel Bryan, Bayley or Miz, you know someone who doesn't make them feel like they are being fooled.
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