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  #1  
Old 01-18-2017, 06:32 PM
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Default 2017 Baseball Hall of Fame

So the news just broke that Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, and Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez will all be elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame, class of 2017.

Bagwell was one of his generations best power hitters and though he had the steroid cloud hanging over his cloud like a lot of sluggers from his generation, he was never as heavily linked to PEDs. He, along with fellow Hall of Famer Craig Biggio, lead the Astros to some very good years in the early part of the 2000s. During his fifteen year career he was named Rookie of the Year and Most Valuable Player and will go down as one of the most loyal players in the game, choosing to stay with Houston his entire career.

Pudge was one of the best all around catchers in the game. In a 21 year career, Pudge was named a Gold Glover 13 times and an All-Star 14 times. He is also the career leader in hits, runs, doubles, and games played at catcher. He will likely go in as a member of the Texas Rangers, but he also played for Detroit, Miami, New York, Houston, and Washington.

Raines, in his final year of eligibility, is who I am most glad to see go in, is considered by many to be the second greatest leadoff hitter of all time, trailing only the great Ricky Henderson. He was a seven time All-Star and ranks fifth all time in stolen bases. Raines will likely go in as an Expo, and unless Vladimir Guerrero goes in under the same cap, he will be the last player to go in for the defunct franchise. Many people point to his admitted cocaine use during his playing days as a reason he had to wait so long to get into the prestigious HoF.

Falling just short this year were the aforementioned Vlad, who garnered 71% of the required 75% and Trevor Hoffman with 74%.

In his final year, former all time saves leader Lee Smith only managed to garner 34% of the vote.

The full list of candidates and votes received is below.

Click for Spoiler:
Votes Percentage
381 Jeff Bagwell 86.2%
380 Tim Raines 86.0%
336 Ivan Rodriguez 76.0%
327 Trevor Hoffman 74.0%
317 Vladimir Guerrero 71.7%
259 Edgar Martinez 58.6%
239 Roger Clemens 54.1%
238 Barry Bonds 53.8%
229 Mike Mussina 51.8%
199 Curt Schilling 45.0%
151 Lee Smith 34.2%
105 Manny Ramirez 23.8%
97 Larry Walker 21.9%
96 Fred McGriff 21.7%
74 Jeff Kent 16.7%
59 Gary Sheffield 13.3%
45 Billy Wagner 10.2%
38 Sammy Sosa 8.6%
17 Jorge Posada 3.8%
3 Magglio Ordonez 0.7%
2 Edgar Renteria 0.5%
2 Jason Varitek 0.5%
1 Tim Wakefield 0.2%
0 Corey Blake 0.0%
0 Pat Burrell 0.0%
0 Orlando Cabrera 0.0%
0 Mike Cameron 0.0%
0 J.D. Drew 0.0%
0 Carlos Guillen 0.0%
0 Derrek Lee 0.0%
0 Melvin Mora 0.0%
0 Arthur Rhodes 0.0%
0 Freddy Sanchez 0.0%
0 Matt Stairs 0.0%

*All candidates in italics received less than 5% of the vote on ballots cast and will be removed from future BBWAA consideration
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  #2  
Old 01-18-2017, 06:41 PM
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First off, congratulations to all 3... all very deserving.

Kind of upset that Vlad didn't get in on his first shot, but with 71% of the vote he'll definitely get in next year.

Also I'm really shocked Hoffman didn't get in, again with the percentage of votes that he got this year, he's a shoe in for next year. He was so consistent for so long. I wonder if it was because he played for San Diego? Surely if he played in a New York or LA he would've gotten in easy.

And Clemens and Bonds are trending in the right direction. It looks like they'll be getting in eventually.
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Old 01-18-2017, 07:03 PM
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Really pumped that Pudge is getting the nod. My all time favorite catcher and one of the reasons I ended up playing that position from a young age. Clemens and Bonds should already be in. I get it, they took steroids, but everybody knows they're going to be there eventually so let's just get it over with already. If they somehow didn't make it in, it would be disgraceful, especially in the case of Bonds.

Kind of surprised that Bagwell got such a high percentage of the vote but I can't say he doesn't deserve his spot. Happy for Tim Raines as well. Guy's bonafide. All things considered, it's a pretty good class.
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Old 01-18-2017, 09:24 PM
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What the hell Yaz? Just because I haven’t posted on this forum in four months doesn’t mean you can just assume I’m not coming back to create my traditional HOF thread. But you did me a favor. As a responder instead of the thread starter I feel I don’t have to be as long and detailed. We’ll see how that goes.

The Electees:

Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines
Ivan Rodriguez

I agree with Bagwell and Pudge but I still don’t see Tim Raines as a hall of famer. Bagwell is long overdue and I’m glad Pudge got on the first ballot like he deserved. I was afraid Pudge would fall short because some people don’t like giving first timers as much support as they do later for some reason. One less guy and the already overcrowded ballot for next year.

From past posts I know I’m in the minority about Tim Raines. He was a great player. He’s borderline. I just don’t think he’s a hall of famer. I’ve followed MLB pretty closely throughout my life. When Raines started trending up and looking like he was going to eventually get in I had to visit the greatest website in the history of the internet, baseballreference.com, and look him up. Before I looked I figured Raines retired around 1995, a few years after his prime. I was pretty stunned to see his last year was 2002. Raines was largely irrelevant after 1992. Basically, he wasn’t a major factor for half his career. He was a great player with the Expos but it’s hard for me to say a guy that was pretty much forgotten for half his career his a hall of famer.

So Close

Trevor Hoffman
Vladimir Guerrero

Hoffman missed election by five votes. Guerrero missed by fifteen on his first year on the ballot. It’s safe to say they’re both in next year. I really have a feeling some people are waiting to put Rivera in before voting for Hoffman. Rivera is still two years away so with being only 1% shy I think Hoffman will be sitting on stage when Mo gives his speech.

I was really curious about Vlad. I would have voted for him. He’ll get in next year, and Yaz, he will be the last Expo.

There Is Hope

Edgar Martinez
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Mike Mussina

I’m pretty surprised by Edgar’s jump. 58% is a strong number and one that should make him feel good about eventually getting in. The problem is eventually needs to mean soon. He has two years left on the ballot. Edgar was a favorite of mine but I wouldn’t vote for him for the HOF, but I don’t count. Last year I would have told you Edgar is never getting in, but to jump from 43% to 58% in one year and two years to go, it’s looking good for him.

I’m so glad to see Clemens and Bonds moving up. The way it went their first three years it wasn’t looking good for them but the last two years show reason for optimism. They’re still a little far off but they have time and they’re trending in the right direction now.

Three years ago I was disappointed to see Mike Mussina got only 20% of the vote. He is quickly progressing and now sits at 51%. Maybe not next year but two more years and he’s in.

Falling

Curt Schilling

Schilling actually went down from 52% to 45%. That’s kind of unusual for a guy like that to go backwards. The good news is it’s because of his controversial comments on social media which will be forgotten by next year. Some people think political comments a decade after he retired somehow effect his HOF status. They’ll get over it. Schilling’s election has been put on hold but if these voters are real they’ll put him in eventually.

Stagnant

Larry Walker
Fred McGriff
Jeff Kent
Gary Sheffield
Billy Wagner
Sammy Sosa

These guys just aren’t moving. Some went up but just barely. It’s only Sheffield’s second year so he has time to move up. It’s also Wagner’s second year but I don’t see him moving up. He’s just not a hall of famer in my opinion. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him fall off before his ten years are up by eventually falling short of 5%. Bonds trends up but Sosa remains where he is. Don’t get me wrong, any way you look at it Bonds was way better than Sosa but if voters are starting to soften on PED usage Sosa should be at more than 8%. Doesn’t look like he’ll ever get in. Walker and Kent are borderline but I wouldn’t vote for either so their results don’t bother me. Just look at any of my pasts posts to see me cry over Fred McGriff. I just don’t know why he doesn’t get any respect.

Rough Start

Manny Ramirez

A new PED guy on the ballot and like the others he starts off slow. 23% has to be a little disappointing, yet not surprising. The increase for Bonds and Clemens should give Manny hope, but there is a major difference. Bonds and Clemens never failed a test and never served a suspension. Manny did. That might make a difference for him. I’ll be very curious to track his progress, or lack thereof, over the next few years.

So Long

Lee Smith
Jorge Posada

It was Smith’s 15th year on the ballot and Posada’s first. I don’t see either as a hall of famer but thought they were worth mentioning. I’m a lifelong Cub fan and Lee Smith was their closer when I started watching so part of me always kind of hoped he’d make, but honestly, I wouldn’t have voted for him. I wouldn’t have voted for Posada either but I’m just a little surprised he didn’t get 5% to remain on the ballot. I’m glad though. The ballot is overcrowded so no need to keep a guy like Posada on taking up space.

Next Year

Chipper Jones
Jim Thome
Andruw Jones
Johnny Damon
Omar Vizquel
Carlos Lee
Johan Santana
Scott Rolen

These are among some of the first-time eligible players next year. The only one that I think is a sure thing on the first ballot is Chipper. I’m confident Thome will get in and certainly wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if it’s next year but I have a feeling he might not be a first ballot choice. Factoring in the defense Andruw Jones has the numbers to justify election but I just don’t see it. Speaking of defense that may be the key to getting Omar Vizquel in. I have a feeling he might be the next Tim Raines. People will spend years comparing him to Ozzie Smith the way they compared Raines to Ricky Henderson. Vizquel doesn’t seem like a hall of famer to me but some of his numbers are surprising. Maybe someday, but it’s going to take him a while if he gets in. Damon might get a little support and hang around the ballot for a bit but I don’t see him getting in. Lee, Santana, and Rolen had solid careers but not Cooperstown worthy careers.

I’m going to spend the next several days obsessing over this and thinking about next year. Who am I kidding? I’ll spend the next year obsessing over it. I love this day. So much for not being as long and detailed.

Last edited by The Brain : 01-18-2017 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 01-18-2017, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Brain View Post
Next Year

Chipper Jones
Jim Thome
Andruw Jones
Johnny Damon
Omar Vizquel
Carlos Lee
Johan Santana
Scott Rolen

These are among some of the first-time eligible players next year. The only one that I think is a sure thing on the first ballot is Chipper. Iím confident Thome will get in and certainly wouldnít be the least bit surprised if itís next year but I have a feeling he might not be a first ballot choice. Factoring in the defense Andruw Jones has the numbers to justify election but I just donít see it. Speaking of defense that may be the key to getting Omar Vizquel in. I have a feeling he might be the next Tim Raines. People will spend years comparing him to Ozzie Smith the way they compared Raines to Ricky Henderson. Vizquel doesnít seem like a hall of famer to me but some of his numbers are surprising. Maybe someday, but itís going to take him a while if he gets in. Damon might get a little support and hang around the ballot for a bit but I donít see him getting in. Lee, Santana, and Rolen had solid careers but not Cooperstown worthy careers.

Iím going to spend the next several days obsessing over this and thinking about next year. Who am I kidding? Iíll spend the next year obsessing over it. I love this day. So much for not being as long and detailed.
I thought I might draw you out of the woodwork if I made a HOF thread.

Alwasy appreciate the insight you provide. I wanna talk about next year's first time guys too.

So Chipper will get in. The argument can be made he is the best switch hitter of all time. Outside of Altanta's great pitching staffs, he was the leader of all those great Braves teams in the 90s and early 2000s. Never had the steroid issues hanging around him. My all time favorite player to boot. I'd say he gets in within three years, wouldn't be shocked to see him go in year one.

Speaking of Braves players I liked, Andruw is up. Man that makes me feel old to see two guys I grew up watching getting ready to be on the ballot. Great defensive center fielder, maybe the best of his generation and through his years in Atlanta a great power hitter. Once he left the ATL for bigger paychecks, his production and defense dipped until he had a mini resugance as a DH for a couple years. I want to see Andruw make it, but like most Braves fans who settled for Dale Murphy getting the same treatment before, I'd settle for him going into the Braves Hall of Fame and getting the number 25 retired by the team.

Thome is an interesting case. 600+ home runs and had great patience at the plate. I don't recall him ever being linked to PEDs, but he was such a quiet player. I think he will get in, his numbers are too good to deny him, but he may have to wait due to more prolific players ahead of him.

Damon and Vizquel are borderline. Both were very good, and both had surpising numbers. I believe each were only another solid two or three years from the 3000 hit club. Damon was the bigger personality, so I think that will help his cause, especially considering he was a driving force for that Red Sox team in '04, but Omar was a more complete player in my opinion. I wouldn't fuss if either guy snuck in.

Rolen and Santana might have had a better chance if they didn't deal with the injury bug in their careers, but I agree they both go into the Hall of Very Good. Same with Lee.
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Old 01-18-2017, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Yaz View Post
I thought I might draw you out of the woodwork if I made a HOF thread.

Alwasy appreciate the insight you provide. I wanna talk about next year's first time guys too.

So Chipper will get in. The argument can be made he is the best switch hitter of all time. Outside of Altanta's great pitching staffs, he was the leader of all those great Braves teams in the 90s and early 2000s. Never had the steroid issues hanging around him. My all time favorite player to boot. I'd say he gets in within three years, wouldn't be shocked to see him go in year one.
I'm confident Chipper is going in on the first ballot. I don't think you'll have to wait for your favorite.

Quote:
Speaking of Braves players I liked, Andruw is up. Man that makes me feel old to see two guys I grew up watching getting ready to be on the ballot. Great defensive center fielder, maybe the best of his generation and through his years in Atlanta a great power hitter. Once he left the ATL for bigger paychecks, his production and defense dipped until he had a mini resugance as a DH for a couple years. I want to see Andruw make it, but like most Braves fans who settled for Dale Murphy getting the same treatment before, I'd settle for him going into the Braves Hall of Fame and getting the number 25 retired by the team.
Jones was great for Atlanta. Over 400 home runs with ten gold gloves sounds like HOF material but a .254 career average with less than 2000 hits doesn't look so good. I thought he might be someone that had a shot but when Jim Edmonds didn't even get 5% last year when he was on the ballot for the first time any thoughts I had for Jones went out the window.

Quote:
Thome is an interesting case. 600+ home runs and had great patience at the plate. I don't recall him ever being linked to PEDs, but he was such a quiet player. I think he will get in, his numbers are too good to deny him, but he may have to wait due to more prolific players ahead of him.
Weird that someone that had over 600 home runs was a quiet player but you're right. When looking ahead I always forget about Thome. How can I forget about someone with over 600 homers? He'll get in but I'm thinking second year.

Quote:
Damon and Vizquel are borderline. Both were very good, and both had surpising numbers. I believe each were only another solid two or three years from the 3000 hit club. Damon was the bigger personality, so I think that will help his cause, especially considering he was a driving force for that Red Sox team in '04, but Omar was a more complete player in my opinion. I wouldn't fuss if either guy snuck in.
Damon is interesting. His numbers are solid and he may be helped by his fame with that charismatic leadership on the Red Sox team that broke the curse. I don't think it will be enough to get him in, not only first ballot, but ever. Vizquel is really interesting. My instinct is to say this scrappy middle infielder is not HOF material. Then I look and see he has almost 2900 hits and over 400 stolen bases, not to mention 11 gold gloves. His problem, comparatively speaking he's not famous. He's going to be easy to overlook.

Quote:
Rolen and Santana might have had a better chance if they didn't deal with the injury bug in their careers, but I agree they both go into the Hall of Very Good. Same with Lee.
I like Rolen and he was a great player. I wouldn't be surprised if he stuck around on the ballot but probably only around the 10% mark. His defense will get him some support but not much. Santana was dominate for a brief period and won two Cy Young Awards but like you said the injuries hurt him. He simply wasn't good enough long enough. Speaking of great pitchers hurt by injury, Chris Carpenter will be on the ballot next year too. No chance at getting in but if he was healthy his whole career we might be having a different conversation. Lee won't get 5% but I like him so just wanted to mention his name.

By the way, a little off topic but I haven't posted in months so I just had to mention

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Old 01-19-2017, 07:33 PM
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There was an interesting article on ESPN today where Dave Schoenfield predicted every Hall of Fame member starting with the 2018 class and ending up at the 2045 class.

He had both Bonds and Clemens going in in 2020, along with first time eligible Derek Jeter.

Well worth the time to take to read.

http://www.espn.com/blog/sweetspot/p...s-through-2045
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Old 01-20-2017, 03:06 PM
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Next year is the first year the writers have to disclose their ballots.

That being said, I think Chipper Jones will be the first player to get 100% of the vote.

I am a lifelong Mets fan and grew up hating, but respecting, Chipper Jones. He was a great player and deserves to be a hall of famer. But the fact that HE will be the first to achieve 100% of the vote bothers me. Not because of him being a Brave. But because to me, he's not the one who deserves that honor. That should have been Ken Griffey Jr. The BBWAA has gotten away with picking and choosing hall of famers over their personal feelings of the player and not facts.

I think Vladimir Guerrero gets in next year, as does Trevor Hoffman. Thome could get in next year too, but I think he waits one year. Though again, how can a writer validate giving Thome a "no" on the ballot? Vizquel is a slight possibility, but his offense will hold him back. He might be a late entry in a down HOF year.

Andruw Jones won't get in. He took such a steep decline in his career that his numbers just aren't there. Derek Lee and Johan Santana had a few years where they were great, but both just took too deep of declines, or in Santana's case, injuries shortened their career. Scott Rolen will be one of those who it comes down to year 9. He'll be a guy who is borderline the whole time and if he gets a year where the potential HOF class is weak, he might get in.
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