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  #31  
Old 01-03-2017, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Makaveli31 View Post
There are a several factors at play here.

1) Vince was still operating on the "handshake deal". Your word is your bond. He didn't feel the need to offer guaranteed contracts as he felt the lure of the WWF was enough to entice talent to come over and stay

2) WCW wasn't viewed as major competition. A number of former WWF wrestlers had gone to WCW in the early 90's and found nowhere near the success in the WWF. Jake Roberts and Rick Rude being the two biggest names. WCW was viewed as a step down in the early 1990's. It wasn't until Eric Bischoff elevated the profile of WCW both in the ring and in the negotiating room that Vince took notice.
Guranteed contracts were a new thing in wrestling when introduced by WCW after they went corporate (Jim Crockett Promotions and The NWA largely ran talent deals the same way Vince did before Turner Broadcasting took over).

WCW in those days did give talent huge TV exposure via TBS and paid competitive salaries to WWE, which is why top talent like Rick Rude, Ricky Steamboat, Sting, Vader all stayed there (Vader didnt leave till years later after disputes with Hulk Hogan). So they were legit competition for talent in the early 90s. What hurt WCW wasnt their visibility with the audience (very high) or salary (competitive) but the revolving door of management that plagued the company between Crockett's exit (1989) and Eric Bischoff's ascent (late 93, early 94).

Luger left WCW because Vince promised him a prime spot with his new Universal Body Building Federation, which was about as successful as his XFL foray. Luger's near fatal motorcycle accident and subsequent year long re hab didnt help, but there were no shenanigans with Vince trying to get Luger out of his WCW deal.

By the time Flair returned and successfully recruited Hogan & Savage to join it was clear WCW was very much a rival, ratings rose steadily throughout late 93 so Vince knew he had a problem.
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  #32  
Old 01-04-2017, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by FlairFan2003 View Post
In 1989 WWE sued Ricky Steamboat over the use of "The Dragon" moniker, claiming they created the character and name to stop him from using it in WCW. Steamboat won the case however as footage from his pre WWE days clearly showed him playing the same character with the same look & performance traits, and most importantly name, as he did later in WWE.

This lead to a slight change talent deals, although Vince was reluctant to give guaranteed contracts, it soon became standard for WWE to trademark nicknames. Eventually, as talent became more popular and important to the card, they could get the trademark rights. By the time Randy Savage & Hulk Hogan arrived in WCW they already owned their nickname trademarks. Initially WWE wasnt sure if WCW owned trademark rights to "The Nature Boy" so Ric Flair was initially dubbed "The Real World Champion" although WWE helped him get trademarks on both his name & nickname (like Hogan & Savage).

WWE held trademarks on "Razor Ramoan" & "Diesel" so Scott Hall & Kevin Nash never used those monikers once joining WCW.

Ultimate Warrior was probably just reaching the status to get that name's trademark for himself when his monetary disputes erupted in 1991.
Exactly, over those 90's years the lawsuits were happening, it changed. In the early 90's you could get Lex Luger, The Steiners etc coming to WWE as they had always been. Once the Warrior suit was done and he could change his name legally, that all changed. Mankind, Faarooq, Goldust, Hunter, pretty much anyone who came over from WCW for several years was given not only a new name, but a very different appearance from what they'd previously had in WCW. Some it just wouldn't work for, but even Vader was originally going to just be called Mastodon, and was referred to as this most of the time.

It's only really once the MNW's started proper that the value of a Chris Jericho jumping as himself outweighed the risk to Vince... but even then, he'd wrestled as that for years before WWE so could never own the name anyway.
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  #33  
Old 01-04-2017, 10:05 AM
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Guranteed contracts were a new thing in wrestling when introduced by WCW after they went corporate (Jim Crockett Promotions and The NWA largely ran talent deals the same way Vince did before Turner Broadcasting took over).

WCW in those days did give talent huge TV exposure via TBS and paid competitive salaries to WWE, which is why top talent like Rick Rude, Ricky Steamboat, Sting, Vader all stayed there (Vader didnt leave till years later after disputes with Hulk Hogan). So they were legit competition for talent in the early 90s. What hurt WCW wasnt their visibility with the audience (very high) or salary (competitive) but the revolving door of management that plagued the company between Crockett's exit (1989) and Eric Bischoff's ascent (late 93, early 94).
Those guaranteed deals very very small. Unless you were Ric Flair or Sting you were looking at a guarantee of probably $75-100,000 a year. A upper mid carder like Shawn Michaels circa 1992 would almost certainly make more money in the WWE with much larger PPV, TV, and house show houses. Plus a percentage of merchandise. Vince didn't give out guaranteed contracts but he gave "opportunity" the high visibilty of WWE vs WCW in the early '90's was well worth the sacrifice of a guaranteed contract.

Well you have to think. Rude, Sting and Vader were all on top and making probably making over $500,000 a year. It would make no sense for them to jump but like I mentioned Ric Flair, Lex Luger, the Steiners, Brian Pillman, the Nasty Boys, Sid, the Road Warriors were all on top also and they jumped. It much more prevalent in those days to see top talent move from WCW to WWF vs vice versa. Rude and Steamboat had their issues with Vince while Sting, we know, was highly loyal to WCW.

I don't dispute the problems with WCW circa 1990-1993 had to do with the revolving door but you cannot argue that WCW had much less visibilty than the WWF in those days. The WWF were doing PPV shows in places like Wembley Stadium, the Sky Dome, the Hoosier Dome, they constantly filled big arenas. WCW were doing PPV shows in front of 10,000 (max) fans still primarily in southern part of the United States. WCW's house shows were anemic compared to the jugernaught WWF tour drawing only a few thousand a night. It was one of the reasons Bischoff canceled house shows when he took over. One can't argue that while WCW gave out "guaranteed contracts" the revenue stream for a mid to upper level talent was MUCH greater in the WWF.

I have to argue the Luger point. Yes there were shenanigans. Luger was not a competitive bodybuilder. He was never going to compete in the WBF. WCW gave Luger permission to seek employment "outside of wrestling" freeing up Luger to sign with Vince as a "bodybuilder" before transitioning to the WWF. So Luger got out of the last year of his contract with WCW. Do you really think WCW would've let Luger walk on his last year if he told them he was signing with the rival promoter in ANY capacity?

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By the time Flair returned and successfully recruited Hogan & Savage to join it was clear WCW was very much a rival, ratings rose steadily throughout late 93 so Vince knew he had a problem.
Well you have to remember 1993-1995 was a down town for ALL of pro wrestling so it would make sense that the gap would close but it was more WWF coming down to WCW's level than WCW rising up the WWF's level. Things didn't start to take off for either promotion until 1997/98.
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  #34  
Old 01-04-2017, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Makaveli31 View Post
Those guaranteed deals very very small. Unless you were Ric Flair or Sting you were looking at a guarantee of probably $75-100,000 a year. A upper mid carder like Shawn Michaels circa 1992 would almost certainly make more money in the WWE with much larger PPV, TV, and house show houses. Plus a percentage of merchandise. Vince didn't give out guaranteed contracts but he gave "opportunity" the high visibilty of WWE vs WCW in the early '90's was well worth the sacrifice of a guaranteed contract.

Well you have to think. Rude, Sting and Vader were all on top and making probably making over $500,000 a year. It would make no sense for them to jump but like I mentioned Ric Flair, Lex Luger, the Steiners, Brian Pillman, the Nasty Boys, Sid, the Road Warriors were all on top also and they jumped. It much more prevalent in those days to see top talent move from WCW to WWF vs vice versa. Rude and Steamboat had their issues with Vince while Sting, we know, was highly loyal to WCW.

I don't dispute the problems with WCW circa 1990-1993 had to do with the revolving door but you cannot argue that WCW had much less visibilty than the WWF in those days. The WWF were doing PPV shows in places like Wembley Stadium, the Sky Dome, the Hoosier Dome, they constantly filled big arenas. WCW were doing PPV shows in front of 10,000 (max) fans still primarily in southern part of the United States. WCW's house shows were anemic compared to the jugernaught WWF tour drawing only a few thousand a night. It was one of the reasons Bischoff canceled house shows when he took over. One can't argue that while WCW gave out "guaranteed contracts" the revenue stream for a mid to upper level talent was MUCH greater in the WWF.

I have to argue the Luger point. Yes there were shenanigans. Luger was not a competitive bodybuilder. He was never going to compete in the WBF. WCW gave Luger permission to seek employment "outside of wrestling" freeing up Luger to sign with Vince as a "bodybuilder" before transitioning to the WWF. So Luger got out of the last year of his contract with WCW. Do you really think WCW would've let Luger walk on his last year if he told them he was signing with the rival promoter in ANY capacity?



Well you have to remember 1993-1995 was a down town for ALL of pro wrestling so it would make sense that the gap would close but it was more WWF coming down to WCW's level than WCW rising up the WWF's level. Things didn't start to take off for either promotion until 1997/98.
You say it wouldn't make sense but people WERE jumping in that period... By 94 you had Rude days away from ending his contract and heading back to the WWF. Even without guaranteed money he knew that a return for him at that time, with Bret and Owen Hart, Razor, Davey and Shawn he would have made massive numbers and gotten the World title at least once. Sting was seriously considering it too. Hogan and co were costing them talent left and right cos they had bad experiences or knew their time was up.

WWF didn't "drop" as such, they just failed to capitalise on the UK boom... mainly due to losing Davey thanks to Warrior... make no mistake, had Davey stayed, Summerslam would have been in Wembley again in 93 and Mania 11 would have been there guaranteed. All the potential just fizzled and that damaged them.
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  #35  
Old 01-04-2017, 12:13 PM
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By 94 you had Rude days away from ending his contract and heading back to the WWF. Even without guaranteed money he knew that a return for him at that time, with Bret and Owen Hart, Razor, Davey and Shawn he would have made massive numbers and gotten the World title at least once. Sting was seriously considering it too. Hogan and co were costing them talent left and right cos they had bad experiences or knew their time was up.
I've never heard this. In fact, it was just the opposite. According to Eric Bischoff and Ric Flair, if you listen to their podcast, Rude was lobbying for Sting's spot as the top babyface and have a run with the World Title because you can draw more money as a babyface as you have a line of heels to work with. BUT IF his deal was ending it WOULD made sense to play both sides (WCW and WWF) against each other during negotiation but I've never heard Rude was close to signing with the WWF in 1994.

I've never heard Sting was close to leaving either. He was getting paid close to a million dollars per year guaranteed. If you listen to Sting's interviews he says he never considered going to the WWF.

They dropped in the United States which is where their bread is buttered is. They did a number of UK tours during the "down time" and they were successful but it could not make up for the money being lost in the US. One or two UK PPV's was not going to be enough to generate a substantial profit for the year when most of your business is being done in the US. I think they would actually LOSE money if they went to the UK for PPV's because of the cost of flying everything there and back. No, WWE significantly downsized in 1995 hence WM 11 being held in Hartford and RAW's being taped in the school gyms that was the only way they were going stay afloat as a privately owned business not going to the UK.
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  #36  
Old 01-04-2017, 02:42 PM
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I've never heard this. In fact, it was just the opposite. According to Eric Bischoff and Ric Flair, if you listen to their podcast, Rude was lobbying for Sting's spot as the top babyface and have a run with the World Title because you can draw more money as a babyface as you have a line of heels to work with. BUT IF his deal was ending it WOULD made sense to play both sides (WCW and WWF) against each other during negotiation but I've never heard Rude was close to signing with the WWF in 1994.

I've never heard Sting was close to leaving either. He was getting paid close to a million dollars per year guaranteed. If you listen to Sting's interviews he says he never considered going to the WWF.
You've never heard those things because they weren't true. He went over Sting for the belt in his final WCW match. Some people have an odd agenda where they claim that essentially everyone was dying to jump from WCW back to WWF as soon as Hogan got there, but it's just not true. Rick Rude wasn't going back to the WWF at that time and Sting certainly wasn't.
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  #37  
Old 01-08-2017, 12:07 AM
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You've never heard those things because they weren't true. He went over Sting for the belt in his final WCW match. Some people have an odd agenda where they claim that essentially everyone was dying to jump from WCW back to WWF as soon as Hogan got there, but it's just not true. Rick Rude wasn't going back to the WWF at that time and Sting certainly wasn't.
There were a LOT of stories about 1994 WCW. There were stories WCW wanted Flair to put over Sting again & really build him as #1 star but at the same time Rick Rude was getting a huge push much of 1993 into 1994 and was even teasing a baby face turn in his feud vs Vader. This lead to stories WCW was considering putting the title on him, possibly by having a double character switch (Rude turns face & Flair who was very much a fan fave at the time turns heel).

Im not sure what Bischoff has said. Flair many times has said he didnt know what the plans were for Rude (who remember got hurt that spring & never wrestled again) but admitts there was talk of him putting over Sting big time that summer....IF they couldnt get Hogan (who Flair was recruiting with Bischoff & Ted Turner's blessing).

It is well known that Rude did not get along with Hogan near the end of his WWE run and although he continued to work with Flair without issue there were rumors he was upset in late 93 when WCW 1) Pushed Sid to be the man who ultimately unseated Vader, ending his dominant title run, and being crowned champ 2) When Sid got fired that WCW switched to Flair, presumsbly without much thought given to anyone else.

Would Rude, if healthy, have stayed in the new "Hogan-centric" WCW, presumably as the next villain after Flair for Hulk to knock down ? Money & opportunity talk, so who knows, if WWE offered similar money and no Hogan, I can believe he walks.

If Rude hadnt been injured & Hogan stayed retired, would he have got the call to replace Flair as a long term champ over Sting ? I can believe this one too, Sting did have a great set up to beat Luger for the belt and an exhausting feud vs Vader, WCW may have thought why not give a new guy a run & see how he does ? They turned to Flair in 93 because he was guaranteed money, always popular, always capable to draw, and Vader was due for a change & it was time for a fan fave champ, although notice they didnt run back to Sting at this time. That's what makes me think Rude might have gotten the nod if WCW stayed Hogan Free & he never got injured. Plus Sting was young enough they could build him up for another run where as Flair was in his mid 40s and they didnt want him as their only main event draw on the card at that age.

Ultimately none of this is relevant to Warrior 91, wrestling in general and WWE in particular didnt have guaranteed deals, Warrior took a hardline stance to get bigger money he thought his character was worth. He may well have been in line to get the patent on his name at this point but it seems his salary & bonus demands are the real issue. We can debate the worthiness and validity of his argument all day although we know his uber hard line tact failed.

I made my opinion clear, when you listen to stories that guys like Jericho & Flair have told regarding approaching Vince with pay issues (and being rewarded with large sums of extra money) hindsight tells me Warrior would have been better served with a more cordial, friendlier approach. And while I totally understand his reasoning for attempting to maximize his earning power, I cant be on his side because of how he did it.
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  #38  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:53 AM
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There were a LOT of stories about 1994 WCW. There were stories WCW wanted Flair to put over Sting again & really build him as #1 star but at the same time Rick Rude was getting a huge push much of 1993 into 1994 and was even teasing a baby face turn in his feud vs Vader. This lead to stories WCW was considering putting the title on him, possibly by having a double character switch (Rude turns face & Flair who was very much a fan fave at the time turns heel).

Im not sure what Bischoff has said. Flair many times has said he didnt know what the plans were for Rude (who remember got hurt that spring & never wrestled again) but admitts there was talk of him putting over Sting big time that summer....IF they couldnt get Hogan (who Flair was recruiting with Bischoff & Ted Turner's blessing).

It is well known that Rude did not get along with Hogan near the end of his WWE run and although he continued to work with Flair without issue there were rumors he was upset in late 93 when WCW 1) Pushed Sid to be the man who ultimately unseated Vader, ending his dominant title run, and being crowned champ 2) When Sid got fired that WCW switched to Flair, presumsbly without much thought given to anyone else.

Would Rude, if healthy, have stayed in the new "Hogan-centric" WCW, presumably as the next villain after Flair for Hulk to knock down ? Money & opportunity talk, so who knows, if WWE offered similar money and no Hogan, I can believe he walks.

If Rude hadnt been injured & Hogan stayed retired, would he have got the call to replace Flair as a long term champ over Sting ? I can believe this one too, Sting did have a great set up to beat Luger for the belt and an exhausting feud vs Vader, WCW may have thought why not give a new guy a run & see how he does ? They turned to Flair in 93 because he was guaranteed money, always popular, always capable to draw, and Vader was due for a change & it was time for a fan fave champ, although notice they didnt run back to Sting at this time. That's what makes me think Rude might have gotten the nod if WCW stayed Hogan Free & he never got injured. Plus Sting was young enough they could build him up for another run where as Flair was in his mid 40s and they didnt want him as their only main event draw on the card at that age.

Ultimately none of this is relevant to Warrior 91, wrestling in general and WWE in particular didnt have guaranteed deals, Warrior took a hardline stance to get bigger money he thought his character was worth. He may well have been in line to get the patent on his name at this point but it seems his salary & bonus demands are the real issue. We can debate the worthiness and validity of his argument all day although we know his uber hard line tact failed.

I made my opinion clear, when you listen to stories that guys like Jericho & Flair have told regarding approaching Vince with pay issues (and being rewarded with large sums of extra money) hindsight tells me Warrior would have been better served with a more cordial, friendlier approach. And while I totally understand his reasoning for attempting to maximize his earning power, I cant be on his side because of how he did it.
The issue was that Hogan had flat out refused to work with Rude in 1990, much less job for him as Warrior had. This got back to Warrior and he then refused to job out to Rude again, saying he'd "already done that". With Slaughter going into that World title role despite only just "coming back", and Big Bossman being Vince's idea of a feud for him he walked.

A few years later and Hogan is coming in with his cronies and hoovering up the spots, your contract is up... Sure Rude might have considered staying and working Hogan but reality and experience would have been no... You only have to look at Hacksaw and Austin to get an idea how a Rude v Hogan feud would go... or he could head back to Vince, be a hot heel again working with Bret, Shawn and the like... guys who were his size... so the "he's too small for me to fight/lose to" didn't apply.

How close it came is conjecture but I have seen those tales many times over the years that Rude was out the door much as Lex was the other way a year or so later when the injury occurred.
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  #39  
Old 01-12-2017, 09:36 AM
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The issue was that Hogan had flat out refused to work with Rude in 1990, much less job for him as Warrior had. This got back to Warrior and he then refused to job out to Rude again, saying he'd "already done that". With Slaughter going into that World title role despite only just "coming back", and Big Bossman being Vince's idea of a feud for him he walked.
Again, I've never heard these stories from ANYONE? Do you have any sources that say Warrior was supposed to drop the WWF World title to Rick Rude in 1990? It would make NO sense to have Warrior go over Hogan at WrestleMania only to have him drop the title to Rude a few months later. Vince was never a fan of heel World Champions and used them only as transitional champions. I've said before. The reason why Rude walked was because his SummerSlam 1990 pay was substantially less than Warrior's even though Rude carried the entire match. So it had nothing to do with Hogan or even Warrior, it was a pay dispute with Vince ironically much like Warrior would have a year later.

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A few years later and Hogan is coming in with his cronies and hoovering up the spots, your contract is up... Sure Rude might have considered staying and working Hogan but reality and experience would have been no... You only have to look at Hacksaw and Austin to get an idea how a Rude v Hogan feud would go... or he could head back to Vince, be a hot heel again working with Bret, Shawn and the like... guys who were his size... so the "he's too small for me to fight/lose to" didn't apply.
Well we know for a FACT (all you have to do is listen to Ric Flair's podcast) that Rude was gunning for Sting's spot as top babyface in WCW. He was already WCW International Heavyweight Champion by then and scheduled to drop the title back to Sting when he suffered he career-ending injury. This was MONTHS before Hogan would sign with WCW so we would never know what type of relationship the two would have had.

The fact of the matter is, Rick Rude was an established star. I would assume as a major player in WCW at the time he was getting paid about $500,00-$750,000 a year guaranteed. Vince, in 1994, wasn't paying anywhere close to that much less a guaranteed contract so the numbers just don't add up. You say people were jumping during that period, well it's MUCH different for a Steve Austin, Mick Foley, or Brian Pillman to jump to the WWF than a Rick Rude. Austin, Foley, and Pillman etc...were still trying to establish themselves. Plus Vince was already going with a "New" Generation I seriously doubt Rude would unseat either Bret, Shawn, Undertaker, or Diesel for any of the top spots.

Again, I have never heard Rude was on his way to the WWF. I think Rude caught wind of Hogan coming into the WCW and decided to cash in on his LLoyd's of London insurance check, sit at home, and decide where and when he wanted to work. Which he did. Why jump back on the grind that is the WWF tour schedule if you can just sit at home and collect a paycheck?
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