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View Poll Results: Should WWE mention certain things about Benoit
Yes, at least mention him in certain things that he did. 22 44.00%
No, he doesn't deserve even that 24 48.00%
Split decision 4 8.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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  #91  
Old 11-12-2015, 04:59 PM
d_henderson1810 d_henderson1810 is offline
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Originally Posted by @DearWrestler View Post
In my eyes, Chris Benoit materials should never be promoted again. He was my favorite wrestler back when, but even though I'll watch the occasional match, I get a degree of discomfort. Maybe you share that with me, or maybe you disagree entirely, but WWE is not wrong to play it safe. Ethically speaking, I'm on board with WWE on the decision to cease promoting materials pertaining to Benoit.

That being said, I do believe it's time for the company to move on. I remember in Vince McMahon's video retracting the Chris Benoit tribute, he talked about beginning a healing process, and I think it's time to lean into that idea. I think that such a healing process does indeed involve a Hall of Fame induction, but not of Chris Benoit. I believe WWE should induct Chris Nowinski into the Hall of Fame.

I believe in inducting Nowinski for his work with the Sports Legacy Institute. He has helped bring concussion awareness front and center regarding sports and entertainment talents. Admittedly, it can be frustrating to see a fan favorite benched for too long, I believe the program has done more good than harm. While this alone is a worthy cause in my estimations, I also believe it would give the WWE fair and mature platform to discuss the Benoit tragedy. Even referencing Benoit in Nowinski's induction gives WWE a chance to look it's ugly past in the eye and try to heal.

Of course, WWE would never do that.
Christopher Nowinski in the HoF? WTF?

Okay, I'll play along with the "most ridiculous person to put in a future HoF". I nominate the Gobbleygooker. That is where I rate Chris Nowinkski.

If you mean for his work with concussion, then we are inducting scientists now. What next? People complain about movie, TV and music stars being inducted in a wrestling HoF, and you want to put in a scientist?

wtf:::banghea d::

Winner of "Most Ridiculous Post on wrestlezone for 2015. The envelope please. The winner is "Dear Wrestler" for his suggestion to have some "Tough Enough" runner-up who is now some scientist to go into the WWE HoF".

Also, all Nowinski did was provide Vince with a way of covering his ass. You see, I think Benoit did the murders because of 'roid rage, due to his years of steroid abuse.

The media thinks it is roid rage. The police suspect roid rage. I read articles which match Benoit's actions exactly with someone suffering roid rage, and it answers a lot of questions. But Vince McMahon says that it isn't roid rage. I mean, Vince wouldn't lie to cover his ass about his lax Wellness program, would he? Not Vincent K. McMahon, who once faced prison for steroids being rampant in WWE.

Vince, Nowinski and others say that it is that Benoit's brain is stuffed. But then, how come other dementia patients don't kill? You would have a bunch of oldies with their facilites gone committing a crime wave, when they can't even make their own breakfast anymore. Yet someone with an addled brain could kill two people and then himself?

Mick Foley got eleven chairshots to the head while handcuffed against the Rock at RR 99, yet he hasn't gone psycho and killed his family.

Maybe Nowinski should try one other test. See how a damaged brain reacts when it has also suffered many years of rampant steroid abuse. The combination of the two may have played a part. But I am pretty sure that if Benoit did it, it was the steroids he has injected into himself for years on end that played some part.
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  #92  
Old 11-12-2015, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by d_henderson1810 View Post
Christopher Nowinski in the HoF? WTF?

Okay, I'll play along with the "most ridiculous person to put in a future HoF". I nominate the Gobbleygooker. That is where I rate Chris Nowinkski.

If you mean for his work with concussion, then we are inducting scientists now. What next? People complain about movie, TV and music stars being inducted in a wrestling HoF, and you want to put in a scientist?
You're right, how dare we dilute the prestige of a group of men pretend fighting in pants with the work of someone who has done valid work in protecting sports figures. Fuck me for suggesting such a ridiculous notion.

Oh, and wow, can't believe I would dare value the work of a concussion scientist over a game show host or a convicted rapist. Wha t ass backwards thinking I have been cursed with!!

Quote:
wtf:::banghea d::
Also excellent points. I'll be sure reference emoticons in future thesis'.

Quote:
Maybe Nowinski should try one other test. See how a damaged brain reacts when it has also suffered many years of rampant steroid abuse. The combination of the two may have played a part. But I am pretty sure that if Benoit did it, it was the steroids he has injected into himself for years on end that played some part.
See, I actually agree with most of your post. I only had to sift through a chunk of babyshit. I never disregarded roid rage as a factor, but 'the media' is just as guilty as ignoring a factor of this as WWE is guilty of ignoring the other. That two do not cancel each other out, nor is it an avenue or justification for either to skip the conversation entirely. In turn, there is value in your suggested test. Look at you, applying scientific method!
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  #93  
Old 11-12-2015, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by d_henderson1810 View Post
So Lanny ignored his dead brother's wishes. Did he challenge Savage's will (if he had one) as well, since what Randy wants doesn't matter.

I think that Lanny MADE UP saying that Randy wanted them all in, hoping to get inducted himself, or get some money out of WWE to induct Savage. I mean, Savage wasn't around to verify the statement, was he? So Lanny could say that "Macho Man" just about said anything.

(I wonder if, when Lanny said that his brother wanted all three of them inducted, if he actually said it like "Macho Man" Randy Savage? OOOH YEAHHH!)
I think you're grasping at straws. WWE attempted to induct Randy at Wrestlemania 28 but Lanny refused due to his brother's wishes.

There is very little information on how much WWE pays the inductors/inductees but from what is available, it is not much (range is from $1,000 to $5,000). Hotel and travel accommodations are probably provided as well. So I'm guessing it was not for money.

Quote:
Also, this reminds me of a sponsorship story. I heard that part of the reason Vince was pissed off with Savage leaving, was because he was taking his lucrative Slim Jim sponsorship with him, costing Vince lots of money because of WWE getting the benefit of Savage's sponsorship with Slim Jim.
I'm sure it pissed Vince off but he probably got over that a long time ago.

Quote:
Sure, sponsors could go anywhere. Then how come they picked WWE. There must have been a reason to pick them, rather than someone else. Maybe it is because they BENEFIT from it.
It is a strategic decision to choose what you sponsor. Sponsors choose WWE for a reason. However sponsors usually don't rely on one place they sponsor to survive. Sure it might hurt them to pullout short term but long term they will usually be fine.

Take Honda. They pulled out halfway through the XFL season due to low ratings. Honda ended up fine.

Quote:
If Vince said in private conversations to other business people he deals with, that he found the sponsor difficult, then that is harder to sue over than if he publicly said it.
Yes but it is not like Vince knows the entire business world (plus most wouldn't care). Also you are changing what you said.

Quote:
Also, what happens when it is the sponsor involved in the scandal, with one of their employees, or they are found to be doing insider trading or something. Does the WWE have the same right to pull out? According to you, WWE would go under because they need sponsors to survive. That's what you said. So does that mean sponsors can say and do what they like, and those they sponsor have to like it or lump it, because the sponsor holds all the cards?
WWE won't survive if ALL sponsors leave. That is what I said. If one sponsor leaves, it would hurt them in the short term but they would recover easily.

Quote:
We had this issue in Australia a couple of years ago. One of our football teams pulled out on a sponsor, not the other way around, because an employee of the sponsoring company had written racist and sexist things on his Facebook. The football team pulled out, costing them lots of money, but they survived, and were applauded for taking a moral stand.
Yes, because that is one sponsor. Businesses can survive one sponsor leaving.

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This goes to promoting versus endorsement. Does WWE stick with a company, who had a racist and sexist on their books? You all applaud WWE sacking Hogan, yet you make it sound like sponsors are God to WWE and that Vince has to decide between pulling out on a company who may be involved in some scandal, but doing that may bankrupt WWE.
Again, I said if ALL sponsors leave. Not if just one leaves. Read my stuff more carefully.

Quote:
A sponsor is NOT promoting a murderer if WWE shows Benoit matches on the Network, or leaves his matches on DVDs. The matches happened. Sponsors have power, but they don't have the power or right to re-write history. Going forward, WWE were right not to mention Benoit or put him in the HoF, but they are wrong to cut his matches from DVD or the Network, but still charge full price for it. It isn't WWE's fault that they put the World Title on Chris Benoit at their biggest event, THREE FRIGGIN' years before he even did these murders. What, do sponsors now expect WWE to be clairvoyant as well. If a company doesn't want to sponsor WWE because they once employed a murderer, then they have the right to. But don't enter the sponsorship contract, and then moan later about it. Sponsors know going in, and unless WWE PROMOTE Chris Benoit in a new way, then they know what they signed on to.
Read this part slowly. You keep getting confused.

Promoting is not the same as endorsing. Sponsors would flee if WWE promoted Benoit's matches. WWE would be promoting an entertainment product with a murderer. Most would understand they aren't endorsing Benoit's actions. But they would still be promoting (not endorsing) a guy who murdered 2 people. Wrestling is entertainment based. This is different than say a documentary about Hitler.

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You make it sound like WWE would die tomorrow without sponsors. They have plenty of other revenue streams. Besides, the highest-rating era for WWE was the "Attitude Era", which showed nudity, women crawling around like a dog, necrophilia, and every sort of crudity known to man. If they had animals on "Raw" during that era, you just know that they would have done a bestiality angle as well. Yet they made more money than they do now, despite many sponsors staying away. But I bet the ones they had made millions, and profited heavily from leaving their morals at the door. WWE was at an all-time high, yet their numbers of sponsors was at its lowest. How does that work? Maybe sponsors don't put the sun in the sky as much as they or you think they do.
You just oversimplified something that is way more complex than you think. TV ratings are down due to a billion factors. At that time, wrestling was in a culture fad. The Wars was the main reason for that. Once the Wars ended, the bubble popped and ratings went into free-fall. There are now over 1000 channels to choose from. Significantly more entertainment options. The internet has also cut huge into that market (with streaming and whatnot). DVR as well. When I was young, if I didn't watch Raw live, I would miss it. Now I can DVR it. If I forget to do that, I can just find it online. Another factor is 3 hours. Getting people to sit through that is not easy. It is a combination of a number of reasons as to why their ratings are down.

WWE made more profit from 07-10 than they did 98-01. Now how they managed to do that despite more entertainment options and lower ratings (plus no longer being a pop-culture fad) is amazing. They have been hampered in recent years by the cost of starting up the Network (short term harm for long term benefits) and their movie division (which now breaks even and isn't much a factor). So it seems leaving their morals at the door, even during a fad, did not make them more money. Once that fad ended, they lost nearly 20 million in 02-03. One of the reasons was sponsors.

The necrophilia angle happened during the ratings free-fall. Many people still bring up the Stratus barking like a dog segment to show how lowbrow WWE is. WWE got into huge trouble with The Kat accidentally exposing her breasts on PPV (they had the wrong camera angle and whoever was supposed to cover her up was late). They nearly lost their contract with DirectTV due to it. They did lose a sponsor (and/or PPV provider) due to it but I can't find the article that mentions who they lost.

WWE would have gone out of business if all sponsors left during the Attitude Era as well. No sponsors means no TV. No TV means, to put it bluntly, you're fucked.

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If NBC laugh at WWE leaving, let them. But if WWE has another revival, and get big ratings at another station, let's see NBC laugh at lowballing WWE then.
NBC would laugh if WWE threatened to leave them and go on the Network. You said WWE should have threatened to do that which is an incredibly dumb idea.

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WCW didn't have their own network to put their shows on, WWE does. Raw and Smackdown would still be produced, just to a smaller audience of the WWE Network subscribers. In fact, it might attract more subscribers, if WWE fans can't get their fix elsewhere.
Oh dear. Raw and Smackdown cost a lot of money to produce. NBC pays them a huge amount so they can produce those shows. NBC recoups those costs via sponsors (this is how TV works). I said this before but I'll repeat it again, to replace just the TV deal for NBC, WWE would need 20 million Network subscribers. Raw gets between 3 to 4 million viewers. They need one million subscribers to break even on Network costs. Sponsors would all leave WWE if they went to the Network (much smaller audience and most sponsors are tied to NBC) and WWE would lose the TV deal revenue. That is a very hard hit and one they would not survive.

Quote:
WWE will survive, even if some sponsor pulls out. They have other sponsors. There are plenty of companies needing promotion just as much as WWE need money. A new start-up company may love the massive exposure a show like "RAW" will bring them for brand awareness, and charities like Susan B. Komen benefits in donations by associating with companies like WWE.
WWE doesn't want startups. Those usually have very little money. They want big name sponsors because they have money. More big name sponsors they attract, the more NBC pays them. They also make money from the sponsors as well.
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  #94  
Old 11-14-2015, 12:49 AM
d_henderson1810 d_henderson1810 is offline
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Originally Posted by @DearWrestler View Post
You're right, how dare we dilute the prestige of a group of men pretend fighting in pants with the work of someone who has done valid work in protecting sports figures. Fuck me for suggesting such a ridiculous notion.

Oh, and wow, can't believe I would dare value the work of a concussion scientist over a game show host or a convicted rapist. Wha t ass backwards thinking I have been cursed with!!



Also excellent points. I'll be sure reference emoticons in future thesis'.



See, I actually agree with most of your post. I only had to sift through a chunk of babyshit. I never disregarded roid rage as a factor, but 'the media' is just as guilty as ignoring a factor of this as WWE is guilty of ignoring the other. That two do not cancel each other out, nor is it an avenue or justification for either to skip the conversation entirely. In turn, there is value in your suggested test. Look at you, applying scientific method!
"Pretend fight in pants". Are you Mark Madden? This just shows how much respect you give wrestling. If you stepped in a wrestling ring, pal, any one of those guys "pretend fighting in pants" would break your neck in an instant.

Don't know why you even watch WWE if you think that all they do is "pretend fight in pants".

"Fuck me for suggesting such a ridiculous notion".

No, I have no interest in fucking you, unless you are a hot woman.

I never said that I agreed with many of the celebrity nominations that go into the HoF. The whole "celebrity wing" was first started because apparently Vince McMahon thought that it was a joke that Pete Ross would never be in the baseball HoF, so he put in the WWE HoF instead. Now, it is a way to get Hollywood publicity and sell Wrestlemania.

Most of the mainstream have never heard of Chris Nowinski. He isn't a world-renowned scientist, and has not appeared in WWE since he got "future-endeavoured". Now if Stephen Hawking guest-hosted "Raw", he might be a chance.

I don't know what to make of scientists anyway. Instead of trying to give Vince an out for his part of the responsibility that Benoit got addicted to steroids on his watch, and this, I believe, led to Benoit doing what he did. According to an issue of "Power Slam" magazine, Benoit failed Wellness THREE times, but got a slap on the wrist, instead of being fired, because Jeff Jarrett bragged that he would sign Chris Benoit to TNA. At this time, Chris Jericho was off on one of his sabbaticals, and TNA had just signed Angle, and Jarrett was planning to have Jericho, Benoit and Angle all in TNA, and Vince saw it as another company stealing his talent all over again, just like Eric Bischoff did. So, apparently, Vince turned a blind eye. Soon after, the murders happened. So if Vince had enforced the Wellness Policy, Benoit would have been sacked, and maybe got help before he did these horrendous crimes, or it would have been TNA's problem, and Vince would actually be looked at favourably, since he fired someone who violated his Wellness Policy, whereas TNA would have been criticized for hiring a guy with such a bad drug problem.

Besides, I would rather scientists spend time trying to finally cure cancer, since it would help a lot of people, especially a loved one of mine who is going through a cancer battle. Any scientist who can finally find a cure for all cancers, and saves my relative's life, can go in my Hall-Of-Fame, as well as WWE's. I see that as more worthwhile than an excuse, which, if Benoit had lived, his defense would use the ruined brain defense to get Benoit committed, rather than get the death penalty. Now does Nancy and Daniel deserve to have their killer get off on a lesser offence, if he had lived?

I think that a test to see steroid abuse on an already affected brain would be interesting. I mean, look at what crimes are committed on ice and other drugs. So, why couldn't the same happen here.

Did you know, and this is verified by the Atlanta police department, that Chris Benoit visited a doctor on the day of Nancy's death? A young child, sitting with his father in the waiting room saw him, and Benoit allowed him to take his photo on the kid's phone (I have seen the picture in a magazine, and it is considered the last photo of Chris Benoit alive. He is wearing a baseball cap and you could see the gap in his teeth. It's definitely him). The child also said which doctor Benoit went to see, and saw him go into the doctor's office. This same doctor got raided by police two weeks later for prescribing steroids to NFL players, and other sportsmen, including a few WWE stars (e.g. Edge, John Morrison, Rey Mysterio, Mr Kennedy etc).

Apparently, two hours after Benoit was reported to have visited this doctor, Nancy Benoit is believed to have died. Also, police found Benoit's credit cards maxed out on legal and illegal steroid sites, and Benoit's autospy revealed that he died with eleven times the amount of normal hormone composition in the human body, meaning that he was drugged up when he died.

Last edited by d_henderson1810 : 11-14-2015 at 12:53 AM.
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  #95  
Old 11-14-2015, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by d_henderson1810 View Post
"Pretend fight in pants". Are you Mark Madden? This just shows how much respect you give wrestling. If you stepped in a wrestling ring, pal, any one of those guys "pretend fighting in pants" would break your neck in an instant.

Don't know why you even watch WWE if you think that all they do is "pretend fight in pants".
I have no doubt that they could break my neck and leave me on my deathbed, if they were insane enough to assault me for a remark. Believe it or not, respect for the art form and not taking it too seriously are not mutually exclusive notions. I love the story that they tell me in the ring and recognize the risk that the talents take, but at the end of the day, I'm still celebrating an extravagant carny act. That's not a knock on my part. It's objective analysis

Quote:
"Fuck me for suggesting such a ridiculous notion".

No, I have no interest in fucking you, unless you are a hot woman.
Your loss, cutie.

Quote:
I never said that I agreed with many of the celebrity nominations that go into the HoF. The whole "celebrity wing" was first started because apparently Vince McMahon thought that it was a joke that Pete Ross would never be in the baseball HoF, so he put in the WWE HoF instead. Now, it is a way to get Hollywood publicity and sell Wrestlemania.

Most of the mainstream have never heard of Chris Nowinski. He isn't a world-renowned scientist, and has not appeared in WWE since he got "future-endeavoured". Now if Stephen Hawking guest-hosted "Raw", he might be a chance.

I don't know what to make of scientists anyway. Instead of trying to give Vince an out for his part of the responsibility that Benoit got addicted to steroids on his watch, and this, I believe, led to Benoit doing what he did. According to an issue of "Power Slam" magazine, Benoit failed Wellness THREE times, but got a slap on the wrist, instead of being fired, because Jeff Jarrett bragged that he would sign Chris Benoit to TNA. At this time, Chris Jericho was off on one of his sabbaticals, and TNA had just signed Angle, and Jarrett was planning to have Jericho, Benoit and Angle all in TNA, and Vince saw it as another company stealing his talent all over again, just like Eric Bischoff did. So, apparently, Vince turned a blind eye. Soon after, the murders happened. So if Vince had enforced the Wellness Policy, Benoit would have been sacked, and maybe got help before he did these horrendous crimes, or it would have been TNA's problem, and Vince would actually be looked at favourably, since he fired someone who violated his Wellness Policy, whereas TNA would have been criticized for hiring a guy with such a bad drug problem.

Besides, I would rather scientists spend time trying to finally cure cancer, since it would help a lot of people, especially a loved one of mine who is going through a cancer battle. Any scientist who can finally find a cure for all cancers, and saves my relative's life, can go in my Hall-Of-Fame, as well as WWE's. I see that as more worthwhile than an excuse, which, if Benoit had lived, his defense would use the ruined brain defense to get Benoit committed, rather than get the death penalty. Now does Nancy and Daniel deserve to have their killer get off on a lesser offence, if he had lived?

I think that a test to see steroid abuse on an already affected brain would be interesting. I mean, look at what crimes are committed on ice and other drugs. So, why couldn't the same happen here.

Did you know, and this is verified by the Atlanta police department, that Chris Benoit visited a doctor on the day of Nancy's death? A young child, sitting with his father in the waiting room saw him, and Benoit allowed him to take his photo on the kid's phone (I have seen the picture in a magazine, and it is considered the last photo of Chris Benoit alive. He is wearing a baseball cap and you could see the gap in his teeth. It's definitely him). The child also said which doctor Benoit went to see, and saw him go into the doctor's office. This same doctor got raided by police two weeks later for prescribing steroids to NFL players, and other sportsmen, including a few WWE stars (e.g. Edge, John Morrison, Rey Mysterio, Mr Kennedy etc).

Apparently, two hours after Benoit was reported to have visited this doctor, Nancy Benoit is believed to have died. Also, police found Benoit's credit cards maxed out on legal and illegal steroid sites, and Benoit's autospy revealed that he died with eleven times the amount of normal hormone composition in the human body, meaning that he was drugged up when he died.
Look, I'm not gonna spend 12 pages arguing with you, or reconstructing timelines. For fuck sake, as I pointed out, I don't even disagree with your own POV on the Benoit incident., so I don't know why you're going off on that. We're just going to have to agree to disagree about Nowinski. As it stands, WWE's hall of fame is a political device before it is a legit honour. I'd like to see this platform used for informed discussion. The title of the thread is 'What to do about Mr. Benoit', and I stand my my opinion of looking it in the eye and healing.

I am sorry to hear of your friend, though.
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