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Arcade vBookie

View Poll Results: Who Wins This Matchup?
Hart Foundation 14 31.82%
Steiner Brothers 30 68.18%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 10-29-2014, 05:45 PM
Boring Boring is offline
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The Hart Foundation because talking about other promotions you might as well be comparing an ROH tag team too the Legion of Doom.

Bret had great psychology and Scott Steiner is a psych patient. Rick and Anvil are basically the same person in my mind, so I gotta take Bret over Scott and go for The Hart Foundation. Bret was a tag team pioneer.
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  #22  
Old 10-29-2014, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Boring View Post
The Hart Foundation because talking about other promotions you might as well be comparing an ROH tag team too the Legion of Doom.

Bret had great psychology and Scott Steiner is a psych patient. Rick and Anvil are basically the same person in my mind, so I gotta take Bret over Scott and go for The Hart Foundation. Bret was a tag team pioneer.
We're talking about the NWA / WCW Tag Team Division - one regarded as being well on a par with the WWF's of the time (if not a step above). Vince envied them sufficiently to create his own version of the Road Warriors AND brought in the tribute Midnight Rockers AND also raided the ones with the WWF look; like the LOD, Brainbusters, Samoan Swat Team... and the Steiner Brothers! The Steiners were that highly regarded by VKM, he neither rebranded them or buried them.

Jim Neidhart and Rick Steiner were both portrayed as powerhouses but Rick's technical prowess from his amateur days was always played up as well. As to your assertions about Bret and Scotty - we are not talking about who they would go onto be, we're talking about their tag team versions and the simple fact is that the Steiners who appeared in the three top promotions of their time and faced every major contemporary team that they feasibly could lost less than 9 of every 100 matches... the Hart Foundation lost 1 in 3 despite only facing Stampede and WWF opponents.
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  #23  
Old 10-29-2014, 11:03 PM
JoeyJoeJoe JoeyJoeJoe is offline
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I figured this was as good a place as any to say this: I know Scott Steiner got the lion's share of the love from fans because of his abilities, and rightly so, but I just want to say:

The Dogfaced Gremlin fucking rocked!

Rick had so much personality, and added so much to that team. The Steinerlines, the off the top rope bulldog, and his antics helped ground the team in so many ways. IMO, Rick Steiner doesn't get enough credit for what he brought to that team.

Just sayin...
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  #24  
Old 10-31-2014, 08:26 AM
MrMojoRisin MrMojoRisin is offline
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I know this is done, but once I saw the obvious anti-WWF bias coming out of Nightmare, combined with him having a dishonest debate by cherry picking comments of mine and taking them out of context, I didn't care to bother with it anymore.

Let me just set one thing straight though, because it seems a few of you fell for his act.

When I was talking about the Steiners competition being 'dogshit', I was referring specifically to the period of time that he was using as the basis of his argument for them to win. The period of time where they went undefeated for with the US, then World, then IWGP titles (August 1990 to roughly September 1991).

During that period, WCW did not have a good tag division. People who worked in the company at that time have even stated as much. Most of the teams listed after I posted that the Steiners beat over the years... did not compete in WCW during this period. Many of their tag matches over this period... were against makeshift teams that most people would be surprised to hear actually teamed (like Arn Anderson and the One Man Gang for example). The time period here where WCW did have some better teams (like Doom), was when the Steiners were the secondary tag team champions of the company.

That run was being used to hold up the invincibility of the Steiner's... and while I loved them as a team (honestly one of my favorites of all time), it's simply not the period I would have used to argue their case, because it doesn't hold up as well as others. Honestly, I would have gone with their first title run a year earlier, because the competition in WCW was a lot better at that time. Or I at least would have done what justyank did and focused on the teams they beat over the years, and not a period where they were unbeatable because it would have looked unbelievable for their company to have them get beat.

It would have been nice to at least have an honest debate about it.

I'm glad the Steiners won though. I may like the Harts better, but the Steiners are definitely deserving.
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  #25  
Old 10-31-2014, 01:00 PM
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You can come in here & whine after the fact all you want. Sour grapes, little man... sour grapes.


Clearly you have no clue what you are talking about when you call my stance 'anti-WWE bias' just because I was on the other side of this discussion. WWF\E has been my favorite promotion out of them all. Understanding & appreciating what happens outside of Vince's empire hardly makes me biased. The Hart Foundation were good in one promotion, but never considered the best in the world- you said so yourself. Beating a handful of good teams in one promotion is not as impressive as beating good teams from all over wrestling's landscape. Good in one place is not as important as great everywhere. Spin it how you want & defend it with contract status, but it is what it is. A team who is good at beating division rivals in the NFL may be great, but if they never make it to the playoffs it dont mean shit when comparing legacy against teams who win the conference. Using the defense of 'well they never got to play there so it dont count' is a silly ass argument.


As far as your comment about a dishonest debate? Hilarious. At no point did I lie or cheat in arguing my stance. You are just irritated that I refused to engage\respond to every little brick in your pink & black word fort. I did not need to deconstruct every sentence that you wrote in order to point out that Rick\Scott were a better team overall than Bret\Anvil. Clearly others agreed with that fact. I chose to point out that The Steiners were an overall better team with a better career, had a big run with 3 titles at once & were more than capable in taking down your team in the ring. You chose to further the misconception that The Hart Foundation were a better team than they actually were. There was no need for me to multi-quote you or construct a rival wall of text in order to show who should win the matchup.


Move on & let it go.
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  #26  
Old 10-31-2014, 02:06 PM
MrMojoRisin MrMojoRisin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmare View Post
Bret\Anvil were at the top in WWF, but despite what Vince wants us to think- the wrestling world is much bigger than his Connecticut based empire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmare View Post
Clearly you have no clue what you are talking about when you call my stance 'anti-WWE bias' just because I was on the other side of this discussion. WWF\E has been my favorite promotion out of them all.
Yes... clearly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmare View Post
Understanding & appreciating what happens outside of Vince's empire hardly makes me biased.
I don't know that you do understand what happens outside of Vince's 'empire' (seriously, it's kinda funny how you can refer to the WWF like that, and still not understand how anyone could think you have an anti-WWF bias).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmare View Post
The Hart Foundation were good in one promotion, but never considered the best in the world- you said so yourself.
Yeah, and I also said that by the time the Steiners were considered best in the world, the tag team landscape had changed and there weren't nearly the number of quality teams that existed during the Hart's run. You ignored that part (kind of what I'm talking about when I say you like taking what I say out of context, and present a dishonest argument).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmare View Post
Beating a handful of good teams in one promotion is not as impressive as beating good teams from all over wrestling's landscape. Good in one place is not as important as great everywhere. Spin it how you want & defend it with contract status, but it is what it is. A team who is good at beating division rivals in the NFL may be great, but if they never make it to the playoffs it dont mean shit when comparing legacy against teams who win the conference. Using the defense of 'well they never got to play there so it dont count' is a silly ass argument.
Haha. So now the Steiners are conference champs, and the Harts are a team that can win a few games, but can't even make the playoffs?

I love your 'good in one place is not as important as great everywhere' line though. It's still real to you, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmare View Post
As far as your comment about a dishonest debate? Hilarious. At no point did I lie or cheat in arguing my stance. You are just irritated that I refused to engage\respond to every little brick in your pink & black word fort.
I don't think you get the concept of an 'honest' debate.
  • to start off, you presented the Hart Foundation as a short term team that meant little in the grand scheme of things, who only had good matches when paired up with better teams. That was such bullshit that it needed to be addressed
  • you overhyped the US to World to IWGP run, providing zero context behind it... then got salty once I did explain the back story behind that
  • you conveniently refuse to acknowledge the real working differences between WWF wrestlers and WCW wrestlers, because this didn't help your argument. You claim that 'you don't know' how the Harts would have faired in Japan because it never happened? First... do you know a single thing about how the business works? The Steiners got pushed in Japan because they drew. WWF wrestlers drew HUGE in Japan whenever they got the rare chance to compete there. The Hart family already had a good working relationship NJPW (both Bret and Jim did several tours, Owen was made their Jr. Heavyweight champ, Bulldogs worked there extensively, ect). Had the Hart Foundation, a popular WWF tag team whom their fans wanted to see, been available... they would have had the same type of accolades... if not greater, than what the Steiners had. Anyone who doesn't believe that... is either kidding themselves, or just doesn't understand. I'm guessing you just don't understand


No one's asking you to engage/respond to 'every little brick in my pink & black word fort'. But for fucks sake... when you do choose to engage/respond to something... get the fucking context right and don't twist it to suit your agenda. Because otherwise...

that's being dishonest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmare View Post
I did not need to deconstruct every sentence that you wrote in order to point out that Rick\Scott were a better team overall than Bret\Anvil. Clearly others agreed with that fact. I chose to point out that The Steiners were an overall better team with a better career, had a big run with 3 titles at once & were more than capable in taking down your team in the ring. You chose to further the misconception that The Hart Foundation were a better team than they actually were. There was no need for me to multi-quote you or construct a rival wall of text in order to show who should win the matchup.
Others are more than free to think whatever they want. But just like you were, I also had the right to make the argument that I wanted to make for this matchup (if not, then what's the fucking point?)

You chose to point out what you wanted... I argued it. That's what we call a debate. Like I said, you just weren't capable of actually debating my points, so you chose to take what you could out of what I said out of context.

And I'm calling you on it... only because it appears that a few people actually got fooled by you

Felt good. Now I can move on.
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  #27  
Old 10-31-2014, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoRisin View Post
Yes... clearly.



I don't know that you do understand what happens outside of Vince's 'empire' (seriously, it's kinda funny how you can refer to the WWF like that, and still not understand how anyone could think you have an anti-WWF bias).
Actually, I've argued nightmare on ALOT of things and anti-wwf bias is one thing he's never had. Don't believe me, go back to his debates with me about Misawa and Jericho. The only difference is he's right here. The fact is this, the WWF has NEVER looked at the tag team division with the importance that WCW, and Japan did. NEVER. And the fact is that tag team wrestling has been better in both of those places overall than in WWF. There's little debate there. Misawa and Kobashi should've beat the Hart foundation, so should've demolition honestly. The WWF made their tag division look secondary, which hurts them against all the great imo. Teams like Tully and Arn, the MNE, and Brisco's will always be higher imo.
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  #28  
Old 10-31-2014, 05:09 PM
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Well here we go. You wanted it, you got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoRisin View Post
Yes... clearly.


I don't know that you do understand what happens outside of Vince's 'empire' (seriously, it's kinda funny how you can refer to the WWF like that, and still not understand how anyone could think you have an anti-WWF bias).

Referring to what Vince McMahon built as an empire does not show an anti-WWF bias. A bias would be to dismiss everything that the company has done or blast them openly in favor of another promotion. Using the word empire does neither of those.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoRisin View Post
Yeah, and I also said that by the time the Steiners were considered best in the world, the tag team landscape had changed and there weren't nearly the number of quality teams that existed during the Hart's run. You ignored that part (kind of what I'm talking about when I say you like taking what I say out of context, and present a dishonest argument).

The number of quality teams you speak of during the Hart's run in WWF? You mean the few that were employed there or in wrestling as a whole, because clearly a few people have already pointed out that your dismissive comment about competition was full of shit. Plus if The Steiners were not considered great until after the Hart Foundation's run, then are we to assume all those teams listed earlier just up and disappeared?


No need to answer. We already provided a list of teams active & competing during that time span.




Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoRisin View Post
Haha. So now the Steiners are conference champs, and the Harts are a team that can win a few games, but can't even make the playoffs?

I love your 'good in one place is not as important as great everywhere' line though. It's still real to you, isn't it?

It actually is a pretty accurate comparison.

If you still fail to understand how a person\team is considered to have a better career by winning multiple titles in various places vs a lesser amount of titles in a smaller place- then you clearly have no fucking clue on the hierarchy of accolades in a legacy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoRisin View Post
I don't think you get the concept of an 'honest' debate.

I have had them numerous times with those more well informed and spoken than you. Maybe you just dont cut the mustard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoRisin View Post
[*]to start off, you presented the Hart Foundation as a short term team that meant little in the grand scheme of things, who only had good matches when paired up with better teams. That was such bullshit that it needed to be addressed

When compared to this team, yes. Shorter time together, less important, not as many great matches.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoRisin View Post
[*]you overhyped the US to World to IWGP run, providing zero context behind it... then got salty once I did explain the back story behind that

Overhyped is a word used to describe your chosen team. The fact is that there were teams available & if so inclined the various promotions could have chosen to give them the belts. Instead Rick\Scott ran with it because they were fucking good. If you actually knew what things mean, then I shouldnt have to explain the concept of why a team would be given a run like that.




Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoRisin View Post
[*] you conveniently refuse to acknowledge the real working differences between WWF wrestlers and WCW wrestlers, because this didn't help your argument. You claim that 'you don't know' how the Harts would have faired in Japan because it never happened? First... do you know a single thing about how the business works? The Steiners got pushed in Japan because they drew. WWF wrestlers drew HUGE in Japan whenever they got the rare chance to compete there. The Hart family already had a good working relationship NJPW (both Bret and Jim did several tours, Owen was made their Jr. Heavyweight champ, Bulldogs worked there extensively, ect). Had the Hart Foundation, a popular WWF tag team whom their fans wanted to see, been available... they would have had the same type of accolades... if not greater, than what the Steiners had. Anyone who doesn't believe that... is either kidding themselves, or just doesn't understand. I'm guessing you just don't understand

Here is what you just dont get. The wrestlers in question could have worked in Japan. At any given point Vince would have let his guys wrestle on a card for a Japanese promotion so long as the money & publicity was good. Need proof? Bret wrestled on an AJPW card sometime in the early 90's, along with other contracted WWF stars including Ultimate Warrior. You are acting like they were landlocked and Vince would never let it happen. Was it a frequent thing? No, but it certainly did happen & could have happened more often if the money\publicity was right. If your team was really that in demand, I bet that Vince would have had no problem taking money for a few more appearances.


Fact is saying they could have done as well or better than The Steiners is just speculation. If NJPW, AJPW, etc really wanted Bret\Anvil- they could have got them for a price.




Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoRisin View Post
Like I said, you just weren't capable of actually debating my points, so you chose to take what you could out of what I said out of context.


Maybe you just had some shitty points that did not warrant the time.... but speaking of incapable-

Kind of like how Finlay & others had some good points of their own & you ignored them because you were incapable of debating their posts? You know, where Finlay brought up the relevant W\L stats from the website you chose to bring into the argument? Or where others brought up relevant competition or the higher number of rated matches The Steiners had in their career?


But none of what we say had merit right? Because The Steiners had no competition, became popular when all the good teams were gone, won belts that were not WWF belts & got to wrestle for different promotions or whatever other lame ass excuses you tried to use to mold your team into something better than they actually were?




Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoRisin View Post
And I'm calling you on it... only because it appears that a few people actually got fooled by you

Got fooled by me? Really? You sure it wasnt because The Steiners were just the better team? Trickery has nothing to do with it, but whatever you need to tell yourself so you can feel like a better person.

"Oh that dastardly nightmare tricked all those people into voting against my team by ignoring my awesome posts & super smart points."


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoRisin View Post
Felt good. Now I can move on.

Well I hope so, now that you just had to come back in & cry about imaginary shenanigans and underhanded, dishonest trickery. So close the laptop & take a breath. It's over.
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