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  #21  
Old 12-25-2012, 12:36 AM
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I always found Wrestlemania 4 very well executed. Looking back though, it's clear that some of the matches could have been better/longer. Perhaps only the best of the best should have participated with an opening round battle royal for the Dino Bravos and Butch Reeds. There seemed to be quite a bit of filler and pointless matches that took away from the competitive level of the tournament. This is who I'd have facing each other first round.

1 Hulk Hogan
8 Andre the Giant

Andre being 8th seed would seem fishy and winning by reverse decision DQ would lead fans to believe that Dibiase paid off the ref. Again.

2 Honky Tonk Man IC Champ
7 Ultimate Warrior

Warrior wins this non title match in less than a minute. He is ranked so low because he was fairly new. Two high card upsets.

3 Jake The Snake Roberts
6 Bad News Brown

Snake wins and is highest seed in conference 1

4 Don Muraco
5 One Man Gang

Gang wins and goes on to face Warrior.


1 Randy Savage
8 Bret Hart

Hitman takes Savage the distance in a classic first round match. Hart makes a face turn in one of his first big profile singles matches.

2 Ricky Steamboat
7 Greg Valentine

Steamboat beats Valentine and not the other way around.

3 Ted Dibiase
6 Hacksaw Jim Duggan

Dibiase makes quick work of Duggan.

4 Rick Rude
5 Brutus Beefcake

Rude beats Beefcake.

So in conference A, second round, Andre beats Jake Roberts. Warrior beats One Man Gang. In conference B, second round, Savage beats Rick Rude, Dibiase beats Steamboat. This way you have super face Savage vs super heel Dibiase in the semi final. If this happened today instead, the match to go with would definitely be Savage vs Steamboat 2. This time with Savage beating Steamboat as Steamboat was on his way out of the company. Andre would beat Warrior in the semi final after Warrior fails to slam Andre in conference B. Then you'd have the company's biggest heel, backed by Dibiase and all his money, against WWE's last chance to stop Andre: Savage. He'd have the Hogan fans behind him. This is the 'real' David vs Goliath match and the route WWE should have gone down. No one could think little Savage could beat Andre. He had a better chance against Hogan. Andre was way too big and nasty and barely anyone besides Hogan had beat Andre. This is how Savage gets super over. Could you imagine how big the moment would be if it was Andre Savage hit with that flying elbow. Savage would have definitely given Andre the match of his life. Savage would wrestle absolute classics with Hart, Rude and Steamboat (or Dibiase) leading up to this. Although it wouldn't be a wrestling clinic, Savage could sell it so well and Andre was the most over heel pretty much ever. This would have built Savage up 'big' enough to be on Hogan's level. And Savage deserved it. Andre's career was ending and he ended up throwing a series of matches in under a minute to the Warrior all over the country a little more than a year later. This was a way Andre could have passed the torch as Hogan was nowhere near ready to let anyone beat him cleanly yet.

Anyway this is what would have made WM4 more entertaining for me. I was a huge Savage mark and it was this WM that hooked me as a wrestling fan forever. As over as Dibiase was as a heel, I always thought it should have been Andre in the main event instead. He would have made that final match that much bigger and special.

Last edited by ilapierre : 12-25-2012 at 12:43 AM.
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  #22  
Old 12-26-2012, 01:38 AM
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Looking back, I think everyone watching (I know I did) totally saw this as a way to promote a couple of top tier guys in important matches but ultimatley put the belt back on Hogan, either going over Andre or DiBiase to do it. Of course, without the Internet leaking top secret behind the scenes info like Hogan wanting time off TV I has no idea Hulk wanted out for awhile, necessistating a new champ being crowned. McMahon wasnt ready to end Hulk's undefeated streak, at least via clean pinfall (he'd lost matches via Count-Out & DQ before, Andre's victory on the NBC Prime Time Special was a complete screw job) so the tournament was created as a way to get Hogan out of the title picture and crown a new champ but crown him in dominating, impressive fashion without going over Hogan. They did a similair thing in 1992 when they were toying with the idea of Hogan-Flair by having Flair win the title in The Royal Rumble, wrestling over an hour, basically beating the whole company, but not pinning Hogan in the middle of the ring, about as impressive a win as he could get without cleanly taking out Hogan in mid ring, leaving some mystique if they did face off (a variety reasons, including Hogan's implication in the growing Federal Steroids Probe that nearly put Vince out of business, conspired to keep that match from happening at the time).

Was the tournament needed ? Id say yes - Otherwise you would have to explain how the top two contenders were achieved for the final match without Hogan being involved. This way you have Hogan on the show, pumping up event interest, and you have a way to protect him from a loss and still crown a new champ in impressive fashion. Savage's win was a landmark event in the company, and his career obviously, the ultimate reward for his hard work and dedication (and how often he made Hogan, Steamboat, and others look good). Hogan didnt really lose steam over it though, the unclear finish with Andre explained his elimination in believable fashion (unlike the twin refs scenario used to explain his earlier pinfall loss to Andre, one of the more creative but utterly ridiculous endings of all time) and did not hurt him or damage Savage's credibility as champ.
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  #23  
Old 12-26-2012, 09:39 PM
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Was the tournament needed? Yes, they vacated the championship and needed to crown a champ. The bigger reason was : It hadn't been done yet.
Mania 1 was what it was. It seemed to be less about the matches and what they meant and more about the event.
Mania 2 had some build up to some matches, which was good. The 3 venues was hokey, and did nothing for the event.
Mania 3 was the biggest event indoors to date in the US. Whether the number was legit or not, who cares. Look at that event and tell me that wasn't the spectacle to end all spectacles at that time. Most of the matches had some background to them which was great.
Mania 4: What could they have done. They needed something unique. Mania 5 in the same venue would be the first time we'd essentially have a year long build to a heel turn and match, so that would be its gimmick. Mania 4 needed something that hadn't been done, and the tournament was it. Yes, the stars aligned: Hogan wanted time off, VKM needed to elevate a couple of guys and Savage and Dibiase got that rub. It was a good thing. I do, however, think they missed a few chances. Namely:
- The second round should have had Savage vs Steamboat II
-I don't mind Hogan coming out in the end, but I have an issue with him hitting ted with the chair.
- I don't think that Rude and Jake should have gone 15. It would have been fine for Jake to go over and then have Rude cost him the match against Gang after.
- In that same vain, there were far too many byes.
-The biggest issue was that they gave away Savage as the champ in the WWF magazine 2 months before and didn't make a change.

In terms of the rest of the card, it was good filler. warrior gets his first PPV match and win in an actual feud. Beefcake and Honky was what you'd expect: Honky keeps the belt and Jimmy gets the haircut. The six man was a rinse and repeat from the year before just with 4 guys being different. The battle royal served the purpose of getting Bret's face turn started. Demolition got the tag straps, which they should have.
  #24  
Old 12-27-2012, 11:15 AM
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I like WrestleMania IV, but I do agree that the Tournament was not needed. It was great, but not needed.

If I may, here is my revision of the WM IV card without the tournament.

20 Man Battle Royal (Stays the same)
Bad New Brown, Bret The Hitman Hart, Boris Zhukov, Brian Blair, Danny Davis, George The Animal Steele, Harley Race, Hillbilly Jim, Jacques Rougeau, Jumping Jim Brunzell, Jim The Anvil Neidhart, Jim Powers, Junkyard Dog, Ken Patera, Nikolai Volkoff, Paul Roma, Raymond Rougeau, Ron Bass, Sam Houston, and Sika.

Singles match (Im just putting Macho Mans and Million Dollar Mans first round opponents together for a match)
Hacksaw Jim Duggan vs. The Natural, Butch Reed (with Slick)

Singles match (stays the same as the actual first round match that took place)
Don Muraco (with SuperStar Billy Graham) vs. Dino Bravo (with Frenchy Martin)

Singles match (stays the same as the actual first round match that took place)
Greg The Hammer Valentine (with Jimmy Hart) vs. Ricky The Dragon Steamboat (with Little Dragon)

Singles match (stays the same as the actual first round match that took place)
One Man Gang (with Slick) vs. Bam Bam Bigelow (with Oliver Humperdink)

Singles match (stays the same as the actual first round match that took place)
Jake The Snake Roberts vs. Ravishing Rick Rude (with Bobby The Brain Heenan)

Singles match (stays the same)
The Ultimate Warrior vs. Hercules (with Bobby The Brain Heenan)

Six Man Tag Team match (stays the same)
The Islanders (Haku and Tama) and Bobby The Brain Heenan vs. The British Bulldogs (Davey Boy Smith and The Dynamite Kid) and Koko B. Ware

Singles match (stays the same as the actual quarter-final match that took place)
Hulk Hogan vs. Andre The Giant (with Ted DiBiase and Virgil)

WWF Tag Team Championship match (stays the same)
WWF Tag Team Champions, Strike Force vs. Demolition (with Mr. Fuji)

WWF Intercontinental Championship match (stays the same)
WWF Intercontinental Champion, The Honky Tonk Man (with Jimmy Hart and Peggy Sue) vs. Brutus The Barber Beefcake

WWF Championship match (Lets say Jack Tunney didnt strip the Million Dollar Man of the WWF Championship)
WWF Champion, The Million Dollar Man, Ted DiBiase (with Virgil and Andre The Giant) vs. Macho Man, Randy Savage (with Elizabeth and Hulk Hogan)

By making the card 12 matches instead of 16, this could give more time to the Championship matches. They could even give more time to the One Man Gang vs. Bam Bam Bigelow match as well. Regardless of what took place and how I have my card set up, I think Id keep all the results the same. The only match that didnt take place would be the Duggan vs. Reed match, in which case, I would have had Duggan for the win. USA!! USA!! USA!!
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  #25  
Old 12-27-2012, 11:51 AM
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The first time I watched it, I loved it. I knew the guys involved, wasn't sure who would win (this was 1989 or 1990), etc. It was exciting. I'm willing to bet those who watched it live felt the same.

When you watch it more than once, yes, it's boring. But what tournament isn't? Would you rewatch last year's Sweet Sixteen through National Title game? No. I don't believe the event was boring, at least not the first time through.

Then again, they did have a lot of jobbers and several unnecessary matches... looking back. That's the key.

The tournament is a fantastic idea (one I hope they go with again at some point), but I'm sure if they did it today, there would be less filler.
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  #26  
Old 12-27-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Looking back, I think everyone watching (I know I did) totally saw this as a way to promote a couple of top tier guys in important matches but ultimatley put the belt back on Hogan, either going over Andre or DiBiase to do it. Of course, without the Internet leaking top secret behind the scenes info like Hogan wanting time off TV I has no idea Hulk wanted out for awhile, necessistating a new champ being crowned. McMahon wasnt ready to end Hulk's undefeated streak, at least via clean pinfall (he'd lost matches via Count-Out & DQ before, Andre's victory on the NBC Prime Time Special was a complete screw job) so the tournament was created as a way to get Hogan out of the title picture and crown a new champ but crown him in dominating, impressive fashion without going over Hogan. They did a similair thing in 1992 when they were toying with the idea of Hogan-Flair by having Flair win the title in The Royal Rumble, wrestling over an hour, basically beating the whole company, but not pinning Hogan in the middle of the ring, about as impressive a win as he could get without cleanly taking out Hogan in mid ring, leaving some mystique if they did face off (a variety reasons, including Hogan's implication in the growing Federal Steroids Probe that nearly put Vince out of business, conspired to keep that match from happening at the time).

Was the tournament needed ? Id say yes - Otherwise you would have to explain how the top two contenders were achieved for the final match without Hogan being involved. This way you have Hogan on the show, pumping up event interest, and you have a way to protect him from a loss and still crown a new champ in impressive fashion. Savage's win was a landmark event in the company, and his career obviously, the ultimate reward for his hard work and dedication (and how often he made Hogan, Steamboat, and others look good). Hogan didnt really lose steam over it though, the unclear finish with Andre explained his elimination in believable fashion (unlike the twin refs scenario used to explain his earlier pinfall loss to Andre, one of the more creative but utterly ridiculous endings of all time) and did not hurt him or damage Savage's credibility as champ.
Never thought of it this way. This is a great point. The title transitiion from Hogan to Savage with the screwjob, tourny, and setting up the year long mega powers explode angle, it really was genius.

Savage for sure built credibility as a top draw that night. I really think 88 was a great year for savage and a fantastic year from wrestling in general.
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  #27  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:17 PM
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Default WrestleMania IV - No Tournament...

You all know what I'm about to talk - WrestleMania IV - historical for the first ever WWF Championship Tournament that ended up with Randy "The Macho Man" Savage winning it and becoming champion for the first time.

There are a lot of rumors surrounding every bit of this event, I've read things about Randy Savage being only a contender for the main title, because Honky Tonk Man did not want to drop the IC Title to Savage. It's a bunch of crazy stories with the debut of Clash of The Champions being involved as well. As a matter of fact the inaugural Clash of The Champions did manage to beat WrestleMania IV, not only did the buys were "lower" than expected but also in the quality department.

So I've been watching some Golden Era stuff and this particular time is really interesting. In one side we still had Hulk Hogan and Andre being the main feud, on the other you had Savage and Ted Dibiase reaching the top quite fast. It all started to play out when Dibiase debuted in 1987 and told the world he could buy anything, including the WWF Championship. He tried to bought it out of Hulk Hogan but couldn't do it - so he eventually helped Andre The Giant get his hands on the championship with a big plan that played out on the very first The Main Event with two twin referees. (oh I loved the fact that Andre actually told he would go on a cruise with the money Dibiase would give him for the championship, just to see the difference in storylines between then and now)

However Andre's reign while not lasting long (as a matter of fact, seconds) did manage to change the entire landscape of the WWF. President Jack Tunney did not accept Ted Dibiase as the champion, because he did not win it. So he announced a tournament for WrestleMania IV. But let's work with our minds and have some fun here.

Let's go back to that The Main Event and completely forget the possibility of being ever in place a tournament. What would you do? Who would go over? What would be your card to follow up an enormous WrestleMania III?
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  #28  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:25 PM
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Can't be bothered to think up a whole card, but without the tournament my main event would've been Dibiase vs. Hogan. No need to promote Hogan/Andre on consecutive Mania shows. I know Dibiases title reign doesn't count, but it should if reighs like Triple H's first WHC and that Orton reign when he was handed the WWE Championship at a No Mercy show count. Dibiase wanted the belt enough that he paid for it, HHH & Orton got them handed to them. Who's really more deserving.

Anyway, Hogan vs. Dibiase. Hogan wins. Loses it to Andre some time later, the belt is held up, tournament at SummerSlam. Status Quo restored. Nobody wants to mess with history too much. It fucks up The Mega Powers if anything. AND YOU CAN'T MESS WITH ANYTHING THE MEGA POWERS DID!
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  #29  
Old 12-06-2013, 06:33 PM
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Well, if you're asking me what I would do, I would have destroyed the status quo, but of course, things like that weren't commonplace back then, so take these changes with a pinch of salt:

1. WWF Intercontinental Championship: The Junkyard Dog vs. The Honky Tonk Man (c)

Without knowing how awesome Warrior's IC title win would be, I probably would have booked JYD to beat HTM for the title. A black man with the title would have been huge, plus he was pretty over. I might have put the title back on HTM at a later date, but this would have been a nice treat at the PPV.

2. Jake "The Snake" Roberts vs. Rick Rude

I'd keep this match the same, except that instead of it ending in a draw, I'd have Jake pull off a decisive victory. Mania was always a show with decisive finishes and it would have been great to see Jake pull out the victory.

3. The British Bulldogs and Koko B. Ware vs. Bad News Brown and The Hart Foundation

BNB was a great character and one of the first ever tweeners. I'd start some beef with the Bulldogs at the Rumble and have him team up with the Harts at Mania against them and Koko. But at the big show, I'd have BNB betray the Harts and help the other team win, turning face in the process even though he had a big loss.

4. Hacksaw Jim Duggan vs. Andre the Giant

I'd have Andre pull out a decisive victory against this crowd favorite just so Ted can point out right after that Andre will be gunning for the WWF Championship after this PPV.

5. Bam Bam Bigelow vs. One Man Gang w/ Slick

I'd have Bam Bam beat OMG in a big victory so he can feud with Honky Tonk Man after he gets the title back from the JYD.

6. WWF Tag Team Championship: Strike Force (c) vs. Demolition

This is another match I'd keep widely intact. Under other circumstances, I would have had The Harts turn face sooner and beat a heel Demolition for the titles at WrestleMania, but considering the landscape they had at the time, this match was the best bet for the tag division.

7. 20-Man Battle Royal: The Ultimate Warrior

Warrior was gonna be huge. They needed to capitalize and have him decimate competition showcasing him here in the battle royal. Put everyone else in the battle royal like Brutus Beefcake and Hercules for some signature spots.

8. Hulk Hogan vs. Ted DiBiase w/ Andre the Giant

I'd have the tournament for the title right after SNME with Randy turning heel with Ted's assistance to win. Hogan would go on to face Ted one-on-one at Mania for revenge.

9. WWF Championship: Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage (c)

I'd have Randy sell out and cheat to win the title earlier in the year, and Ricky will try to talk sense into him, but Randy will flip out because Ricky was the guy who took the Intercontinental title off him last year. Randy will refuse to let him take this one too. They do the big rematch with Ricky beating Randy again and taking the WWF Championship.

I'd follow this up with Randy turning on Ted later in the year and teaming up with Ricky to win the tag titles from Demolition. Andre wins the WWF title, and then drops it to Hogan at SummerSlam in the "biggest rematch of all time". Honky Tonk Man takes the title back from JYD and then drops it to Warrior at SS. Bad News Brown would feud with The Harts right after, maybe teaming up with Koko for a tag team feud.
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  #30  
Old 12-06-2013, 07:00 PM
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With just focusing on the World Championship I would have had a card on tv like a Main Event that would have Savage vs Andre and Hogan vs DiBiase for the title. In those two matches I would have Savage win by dq after Andre dominates most of the match and somehow loses by DQ whether Savage pulls a fast one or Andre doesn't break a hold after the 5 count. Either way Andre still looks strong but Savage wins. In the Main Event you have Hogan losing to Dibiase after Andre interfers. This leads to a rematch with Hogan vs Andre and the Main Event Savage vs Dibiase with the outcomes pretty much the same as it was at WrestleMania IV. That way history wouldn't have really changed that much.
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