**MERGED** The Shield Discussion - Matches, angles, etc (Keep It In Here!!!!)

[TM Punk]

Originally Posted by ilapierre

The Dragon Saga: Pretty pointless to be addressing me as son when you're 20 and I'm 31. I'm almost old enough to be your father.

WWE isn't some real sport like baseball where there's younger talent that develops for a year or two in developmental and can then pop up in the big leagues and take the world by storm. It takes years in the minor leagues to learn the craft and find a unique way to be entertaining. I disagree with your statement that nobody can judge where this angle is going. The way WWE storylines are, we can't even be sure there is an angle though. We may tune into RAW tonight just to see that Vince decided last minute to drop the angle and any explanation of the interference. Based on over a year's worth of WWE doing stupid shit like that I can judge that these 3 green minor leaguers will likely be chewed up and spit out. I'm 31, I've seen a lot and I don't know how many times I've seen 'run ins' out of nowhere by so-called future stars. From Papa Shango running into the main event of Wrestlemania 8 to cost Hogan his match to Horace Hogan running into the Hogan/Warrior match at Halloween Havoc 1997, no names who run into main event matches to interfere never ever make it. Some veterans, like Kevin Nash, run in and get thrown right into a main event angle and never even end up wrestling a match. Anyway, WWE is stockpiled with entertainers who are greener than green. So they needed some even greener fresh faces to run in last night to occupy Ryback for the time being. Ok, I get that. That makes sense. But you guys are all going apeshit about the new next big thing every five seconds and now it's Dean Ambrose. Last month it was Ryback. He was gonna be the new Goldberg or Lesnar. A year before Punk was suppose to be the new Austin. Miz was gonna be the new Rock. Not quite eh. A lot of you WWE diehards all fought me to death on the Nexus two years ago. They were the new and improved NWO the way the NWO angle should have gone down. I argued the Nexus were nothing more than the Spirit Squad with potential. And look at them and that pathetic storyline now. It was beyond laughable much like this is. I don't really get the point of hooking the green ass nobodies with Heyman and Punk. Punk was already put together with the NXT guys before and he didn't need them or really help them. They weighed him down.

Anyway, regardless if Rollins or Ambrose have the potential to be big stars, their arrival in the main event was essentially to keep Ryback busy till Wrestlemania. They may even recruit some more no names to create a new Nexus just to pad the early victory totals in Ryback's winning streak. So you guys can get all bent out of shape about these guys but they're nowhere near ready to take the WWE by storm.

First of all... an 11 year old father? Is that possible? Anywho, I dont want to act like a know it all or anything. But to call a guy who has traveled the world and been wrestling for the better part of a decade a green ass nobody like seth rollins is a joke. I read all of the promos, i was there the night before, and i watched online the night in 2006 that tyler black made his roh debut with the age of the fall (another run in). now i dont wanna act like im an roh purist, because im not. but the current track record speaks for itself, and generally speaking, when you come from ring of honor thay usually means youre ready for tv within a few months. seth rollins is by no means a "green ass nobody" my friend. the point is, these guys arent trying to practice voodoo in a wrestling ring. and none of their names are cleatus punk, or joel heyman. these three guys are ready to be where they are now. not because they can do a 450 splash. or because theyre 6'4" with a cute english accent. they got brought up because they are three guys who have been ready and waiting. are they all going to be stars? probably not. they will be mid carders, but im willing to bet one of them does. do your homework... dad.

[SacredMesa]

Originally Posted by D-Man

Why would that be so bad? They interfered in his match and he's a monster. It took all three guys to keep Ryback down. It's only right that they get completely and utterly destroyed tonight on Raw. This way, they can begin a program in the top tier of Raw's programming and start to "pay dues" just like every other guy had to.

You guys all crack me up. You think the only way to get someone over is to have them make an impact and then become undefeated for the next five years. Guys, wrestlers have to lose sometimes. Other times, they have to lose BADLY. That doesn't completely put them out of the picture forever. Just look at Daniel Bryan... or the Miz... or Dolph Ziggler. They all went through it. Hell, Daniel Bryan was looked at as being "hopeless" for the longest time. They he won MITB and the rest is history.

You guys need to get that stupid shit out of your head that makes you think these guys need to win tonight. Let nature take its course. They may not be main eventers RIGHT NOW but, once their dues is paid, they'll move up soon enough. It may not be in a month, 6 months, or a year but it will happen.

You see there is this thing called momentum. It can make a talentless hack who has no business being in the ring seem awesome to casual fans, see Ryback, but when squandered it can also make people stop caring and result in and entire push becoming a waste, see Ryback.

Frankly Ryback has been a picture perfect example of this. He was originally Skip Shefield(sp?) in the Nexus went no where and no body cared frankly because he sucks. Then he got repackaged as Ryback, still continued to suck, but was given a huge push allowed to win a ton and create some buzz. Then he loses to Punk, and last night after Survivor Series he tries to lead a feed me more chant and I'm pretty sure I heard crickets cherping. Momentum means something and right now these 3 have it, but if WWE jobs them out to quickly they will lose it and the angle will die.

The NWO in WCW didn't become big because they invaded and then lost matches. It became huge because they invaded, got huge momentum, and then they where pushed to dominate the hell out of WCW and be seen as unstoppable, only really showing weakness against Sting who was being built as the savior, until the angle ran it's course with Sting coming back at Starcade. The momentum being used correctly allowed for the NWO to transend genera and become main stream. I'm not saying that will happen with these guys but to ignore the potential that momentum has so much so that you think it doesn't matter is simply ignorant.

[American Dragon D-Bryan]

I honestly believe this was the best way for them to make an impactful debut. All three men have been proven to be great workers in the ring and thoroughly deserve this opportunity. Putting Cm Punk in the mix just adds a new dimension to this storyline. Putting these guys in a faction with Cm Punk would really mix things up in the WWE. It would make them somewhat of an Evolution v2.0, and give the three rookies a great beginning to their WWE careers. However after following Dean Ambrose over the past few years, I think that he would work better by himself. A possible storyline for the rookies would be for them to join Punk, and for Punk to hold the WWE title until the Rumble. Then Punk would lose the title to Rock and over the next few weeks the stable consisting of Punk and the rookies would decintigrate. This would lead to both Punk and Ambrose being in the Elimination Chamber match, and Ambrose ultimately turning face as he pins Punk for the 1, 2, 3. As a hardcore wrestling fan, it would be a great sight to see Ambrose up against Punk (with Reigns and Rollins) at Wrestlemania 29.

[bxbigshow]

I think everyone can see the swerve where Heyman uses this grouping to turn on Punk. But until then I think a stable of "Heyman Guys" would work. Punk as the mouthpiece/champ, Lesnar = muscle, NXT guys are the minions.

[Last Man Standing]

I think the same thing every time I see that commercial. It'd be fantastic to see Punk & Heyman start an Army. With the entrance video starting out with "Can I have your attention please" And after their matches the music could start with "Do we have your attention now?"

And with the way Ambrose, Rollins, & Reigns are all dressed in black like security makes me want to see this happen even more. Bring in one or two more members and we may have ourselves the next big wrestling angle.

[Dagger Dias]

Rollins, Reigns, and Ambrose are lucky. They all got to debut in a high profile angle involving the WWE Champion which has already earned them more exposure a simple debut match/promo would. I was mostly unfamiliar with any of them before they showed up this week. Rollins I had read about but have not watched NXT since the days of the competition format, I have absolutely no clue who Reigns is, and while I had heard of Ambrose it was because people would not shut up about him or how he should show up on Raw in several posts on here; I still knew very little about him, and kept thinking those posters would all be severely disappointed in whatever debut he did finally end up having. I hope they are happy, he got a rather decent way to debut. I'm interested in seeing where this stable goes from here.

There are a few different ways that things could play out from here. It depends on how these guys do in their upcoming promos and matches. This isn't the developmental area or NXT. They are now part of a major angle on the main roster. The stable should be about Punk when it all comes down to it, since they are new there is no reason to focus nearly as much on them. The exposure will be good for them although any type of tension should not be teased for a good while. I just hope this does not end up like the New Nexus where a good idea gets turned into the other guys losing all the time with only Punk being booked to look strong. They are onto something here and my fingers are crossed that it will work out. This should be good for Punk as well as all three of the new guys, Punk having a group of underlings is worth trying again and the new guys will benefit greatly from having been a part of this.

[D-Man]

Originally Posted by SacredMesa

You see there is this thing called momentum. It can make a talentless hack who has no business being in the ring seem awesome to casual fans, see Ryback, but when squandered it can also make people stop caring and result in and entire push becoming a waste, see Ryback.

Frankly Ryback has been a picture perfect example of this. He was originally Skip Shefield(sp?) in the Nexus went no where and no body cared frankly because he sucks. Then he got repackaged as Ryback, still continued to suck, but was given a huge push allowed to win a ton and create some buzz. Then he loses to Punk, and last night after Survivor Series he tries to lead a feed me more chant and I'm pretty sure I heard crickets cherping. Momentum means something and right now these 3 have it, but if WWE jobs them out to quickly they will lose it and the angle will die.

The NWO in WCW didn't become big because they invaded and then lost matches. It became huge because they invaded, got huge momentum, and then they where pushed to dominate the hell out of WCW and be seen as unstoppable, only really showing weakness against Sting who was being built as the savior, until the angle ran it's course with Sting coming back at Starcade. The momentum being used correctly allowed for the NWO to transend genera and become main stream. I'm not saying that will happen with these guys but to ignore the potential that momentum has so much so that you think it doesn't matter is simply ignorant.

Did you not read my post before you replied? Your examples consist of a Goldberg clone (i.e. Ryback) -

[see this part of my previous post:]

You guys all crack me up. You think the only way to get someone over is to have them make an impact and then become undefeated for the next five years. Guys, wrestlers have to lose sometimes. Other times, they have to lose BADLY. That doesn't completely put them out of the picture forever. Just look at Daniel Bryan... or the Miz... or Dolph Ziggler. They all went through it. Hell, Daniel Bryan was looked at as being "hopeless" for the longest time. They he won MITB and the rest is history.

..and the nWo - which has really never been successfully duplicated in any promotion, regardless of the method they used with other modern factions.

Getting back to your point about "momentum"... it doesn't need to happen from the day that a wrestler debuts. Momentum can begin at any time and be carried as far as the individual is willing to take it (see my previous post about Daniel Bryan again.)

Just because Ambrose, Rollins and Reigns debuted at Survivor Series in an impactful way doesn't mean they need to be shot to the moon in their first WWE run. Off the top of my head, I can only name enough wrestlers with one hand that support your version of momentum; shooting wrestlers to the moon starting the day they debuted. Every other wrestler that became popular did so by receiving an initial run and got dummied down for a while as they honed their craft and learned the ropes (Randy Orton, Mick Foley, Stone Cold before he was Stone Cold, Rockie Maivia a.k.a. The Rock, etc.) That's how the WWE brass can assess if a wrestler has longevity or if they've "got the goods" to rise to the top.

This is my point. Internet wrestling fans and smarks always bitch and moan because they believe that pushing a wrestler to the moon from the day of their debut is going to miraculously "save the business" of professional wrestling and create a superstar overnight. But the audience rarely swallows that pill. Newcomers are normally not accepted by the audience. For some reason, acceptance by the audience must be earned. That's why there is a "system" in place that's been working since the beginning of time forutting wrestlers over and jump-starting their careers. Shooting newcomers to the moon does nothing but piss people off who aren't willing accept them as an invincible force.

[Papa Pillman]

Originally Posted by ilapierre

Based on over a year's worth of WWE doing stupid shit like that I can judge that these 3 green minor leaguers will likely be chewed up and spit out.

Anyway, WWE is stockpiled with entertainers who are greener than green. So they needed some even greener fresh faces to run in last night to occupy Ryback for the time being.

A lot of you WWE diehards all fought me to death on the Nexus two years ago. They were the new and improved NWO the way the NWO angle should have gone down. I argued the Nexus were nothing more than the Spirit Squad with potential. And look at them and that pathetic storyline now. It was beyond laughable much like this is. I don't really get the point of hooking the green ass nobodies with Heyman and Punk. Punk was already put together with the NXT guys before and he didn't need them or really help them. They weighed him down.

Let' s see... Where to begin??

First I'm not some WWE "diehard" but I can recognize somebody's bullshit when I smell it.

Yes, Reigns is green. Perhaps even "greener than green". But to characterize Moxley as green is ridiculous. To characterize Black as green is utterly negligent.

Moxley and Black have been ready for the big stage since they were signed. They got the mandatory stint in development to learn how to adequately water down their styles to fit into the WWE environment, and since then its just been a waiting game.

The only reason they weren't called up is because they are so good that the WWE didn't just want to randomly toss them onto the main roster without a real idea or storyline. They wanted to bring up "Ambrose" and "Rollins" in a way that gave them the most chance to get spotlight and succeed early, because both are massive pieces to the company's future.

I'm just glad that this wasn't Hero being classified by someone as green or I may have thrown my computer across the room in disgust, as he's lightyears better than 98% of the main roster.

As for your Nexxus points. Yes the WWE fucked up the storyline royally. And to that end, I don't expect huge longterm things from this new invading trio as far as a stable goes. But that doesn't mean that all three won't become main eventers.

Look at the original NXT invaders... Bryan is a former World Champ already, Ryback is a main eventer, Barrett is on the cusp of the main event, and the likes of Slater, Gabriel, Otunga, and Young are all solid midcarders with regular TV time.

The fact is Reigns has the look and pedigree to be a star. And Moxley and Black have talent that can't be denied, I'd bet the house both will be future World Champions, and perhaps may fued with each other over a world title belt for a long time somewhere down the road.

Save the green-ass nobodies shit for guys like Maddox... keep it far, far away from Ambrose and Rollins.

[enviousdominous]

I'm just happy that Dean Ambrose finally made it to the main roster. A stable is a good way to start, their stable actually has purpose (imagine that).

I see them having an impact on who wins the upcoming Royal Rumble. Maybe they betray CM Punk later to justify dropping the belt.

Their gimmick practically writes itself and I think I may finally be able to stay awake through an episode of Raw, which kind of sucks because I got used to passing out on Monday nights to the first ten minutes of Raw.


Posted from Wrestlezone.com App for Android

[Jack-Hammer]

Originally Posted by D-Man

Did you not read my post before you replied? Your examples consist of a Goldberg clone (i.e. Ryback) -

[see this part of my previous post:]



..and the nWo - which has really never been successfully duplicated in any promotion, regardless of the method they used with other modern factions.

Getting back to your point about "momentum"... it doesn't need to happen from the day that a wrestler debuts. Momentum can begin at any time and be carried as far as the individual is willing to take it (see my previous post about Daniel Bryan again.)

Just because Ambrose, Rollins and Reigns debuted at Survivor Series in an impactful way doesn't mean they need to be shot to the moon in their first WWE run. Off the top of my head, I can only name enough wrestlers with one hand that support your version of momentum; shooting wrestlers to the moon starting the day they debuted. Every other wrestler that became popular did so by receiving an initial run and got dummied down for a while as they honed their craft and learned the ropes (Randy Orton, Mick Foley, Stone Cold before he was Stone Cold, Rockie Maivia a.k.a. The Rock, etc.) That's how the WWE brass can assess if a wrestler has longevity or if they've "got the goods" to rise to the top.

This is my point. Internet wrestling fans and smarks always bitch and moan because they believe that pushing a wrestler to the moon from the day of their debut is going to miraculously "save the business" of professional wrestling and create a superstar overnight. But the audience rarely swallows that pill. Newcomers are normally not accepted by the audience. For some reason, acceptance by the audience must be earned. That's why there is a "system" in place that's been working since the beginning of time forutting wrestlers over and jump-starting their careers. Shooting newcomers to the moon does nothing but piss people off who aren't willing accept them as an invincible force.

Yep, pretty much what he said.

I'm interested in Rollins, Ambrose & Reigns. They made an impactful debut that's generated a ton of buzz. The buzz was kept going by then putting Ryback down for the second night in a row. Now this doesn't automatically mean that we're going to see one or all of these three main eventing in the next three months. Truth is, they're almost certainly not going to be nor should they be.

I'm not all that familiar with Reigns, but I've been impressed with Rollins & Ambrose in NXT. I just haven't really caught Reigns. However, these guys aren't in developmental now. They're not wrestling in high school gyms and bingo halls. They're in the big leagues now and just because a lot of internet fans feel these guys are the top of the heap doesn't mean that the rest of the WWE audience sees it that way. Hell, 48 hours ago, I'd be willing to be 80% of the WWE audience had no clue who these three men are. It's going to take some time to get the audience used to them, to get them over. Almost nobody makes a debut that leads to a push to the moon main event spot. Not Hart, not HBK, not Taker, Not Triple H, not Rock, not Austin and not even Cena.

These NXT wrestlers have impressed the WWE officials. Several months back, I created a post, based on a report, that Triple H didn't want any NXT wrestlers debuting on the roster without some legit storyline and purpose. They weren't just going to randomly be placed on the roster. These three will probably be paired for a while with CM Punk and Paul Heyman. They're already getting exposed in one of the top angles in WWE right now and it will probably only increase from here. If Punk & Heyman are indeed working with them, then it'll be good for them as well with all this new energy and ability to work with.

Whenever somebody debuts or suddenly just pops up, almost somebody starts with a "is so and so the next big thing?" or "so and so: future World Champion?". It's no different with these three. Also, just like anybody that's made an impactful debut and/or is in the midst of a significant push in the WWE, the haters come flying out already denounce them for whatever reason.