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  #11  
Old 11-11-2012, 08:02 AM
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It was sad that it had to come down to screwing Bret over, but hey he didn't want to do business so it's what had to be done. IMO everyone involved was in the wrong. Could you blame Vince for not wanting Bret to leave as champion? What was stopping Bret from coming out on Nitro and dropping the belt in the garbage like Alundra Blayze did. If I was in his position I would've done the same thing. It was war time and nobody could be trusted especially when you know they're leaving to work for your rival. I'm happy Shawn & Bret were able to bury the hatchet and move on.
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  #12  
Old 11-11-2012, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by #heel420 View Post
It was sad that it had to come down to screwing Bret over, but hey he didn't want to do business so it's what had to be done. IMO everyone involved was in the wrong. Could you blame Vince for not wanting Bret to leave as champion? What was stopping Bret from coming out on Nitro and dropping the belt in the garbage like Alundra Blayze did..
The remaining dates Bret had left to drop the title and the lawsuit at the time between WWF and WCW over WCW's use of copyrighted WWF material
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  #13  
Old 11-11-2012, 08:26 PM
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I never understood the point of screwing over Bret as he wasn't refusing to drop the belt before moving to WCW. He just asked that he not be made to do it in Montreal. Like a lot of fans have said, whether anyone especially liked Bret or not, at his peak, he carried WWE on his back. It wasn't a big thing he was asking and I could never figure out what the objection was in granting such a small request for someone who had done so much, worked so hard, and brought in so much business to WWE.
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  #14  
Old 11-11-2012, 09:45 PM
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I never understood the point of screwing over Bret as he wasn't refusing to drop the belt before moving to WCW. He just asked that he not be made to do it in Montreal. Like a lot of fans have said, whether anyone especially liked Bret or not, at his peak, he carried WWE on his back. It wasn't a big thing he was asking and I could never figure out what the objection was in granting such a small request for someone who had done so much, worked so hard, and brought in so much business to WWE.

Have you ever heard of Alundra Blayze? Shortly before the screw job took place she too had left WWF for WCW. She left as WWF Women's Champion and upon her arrival to WCW she promptly threw the WWF Women's title into a trash can on Nitro. Vince was not about to let that happen AGAIN. Bret was wrong end of story. You don't get to leave as champion when your leaving for the competition, Vince did what had to be done and I would of done the same.
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  #15  
Old 11-13-2012, 02:33 PM
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People still bring up the ole Madusa card when talking about Bret.

What some people (mostly the ill informed ones) fail to realise, is that Bret's WWF contract didn't end until December 5th 1997, from the day of SS'97 he nearly had one whole month to lose the belt in whatever way him and Vince could come up with. One month in wrestling is a long time.

Bret could have retained the title on that night, then dropped it to HBK at a later date, or the next night on raw to anyone on the entire roster.

But the claim that 'vince wasn't going to let Bret take the title to WCW' is rubbish. For one thing Bret would never have done that to a company that made him a star. secondly, he would have been sued by Vince for using WWF material on WCW television.

The sad thing about the Montreal screwjob is that it effectively was the end of Bret's career, he went down south and did nothing (not his own fault) and then Goldberg nearly kicked his head off and he had to retire. Bret deserved a better end to his career than what he got, he deserved everything that HBK got in the end, the stellar matches, the goodbye speeches etc. But he never got it. Which is tragic.

In my mind the MSJ was uncalled for, but it saved the WWF in the end up.
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  #16  
Old 11-14-2012, 11:43 AM
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EDIT: Read OPs post and wont get into the debate here. Yes, its crazy that this was 15 years ago. Makes me feel old. Who would have thought the fact that the outcome of a pro wrestling match being pre determinded would have such an impact? Obviously its a lot deeper then that but still pretty funny if you look at it like that.

Last edited by HBKperfect23 : 11-14-2012 at 11:53 AM.
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  #17  
Old 12-26-2012, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmet View Post

But the claim that 'vince wasn't going to let Bret take the title to WCW' is rubbish. For one thing Bret would never have done that to a company that made him a star. secondly, he would have been sued by Vince for using WWF material on WCW television.
Legally speaking, this isn't true at all. WWF tried to sue WCW over their belt being shown on air and failed - the company can be chased for broadcasting it - a performer (person) sure as hell can't. If they could, don't you think Miss Blaze would have been in a bit of bother... better still, Ric Flair when he would prance around on WWF TV in 1991 with the WCW belt...
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  #18  
Old 01-02-2013, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmet View Post
People still bring up the ole Madusa card when talking about Bret.

What some people (mostly the ill informed ones) fail to realise, is that Bret's WWF contract didn't end until December 5th 1997, from the day of SS'97 he nearly had one whole month to lose the belt in whatever way him and Vince could come up with. One month in wrestling is a long time.

Bret could have retained the title on that night, then dropped it to HBK at a later date, or the next night on raw to anyone on the entire roster.

But the claim that 'vince wasn't going to let Bret take the title to WCW' is rubbish. For one thing Bret would never have done that to a company that made him a star. secondly, he would have been sued by Vince for using WWF material on WCW television.

The sad thing about the Montreal screwjob is that it effectively was the end of Bret's career, he went down south and did nothing (not his own fault) and then Goldberg nearly kicked his head off and he had to retire. Bret deserved a better end to his career than what he got, he deserved everything that HBK got in the end, the stellar matches, the goodbye speeches etc. But he never got it. Which is tragic.

In my mind the MSJ was uncalled for, but it saved the WWF in the end up.
I agree with everything you said here. Especially the last paragraph. It truly is a shame that Bret never got that chance to have a second run like Shawn did, where he could have added some stellar matches to his already legendary career. Imagine Bret making a comeback to the WWE, say around the early 2000's when guys like Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero and Y2J were making a name for themselves. Naturally, this is a pipe dream considering what went down and the bitterness that developed for so many years between Bret and Vince. Had the Screwjob not happened, had that Goldberg mule kick not happened, had Owen not died.....so many what ifs.
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  #19  
Old 01-05-2013, 04:38 AM
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I agree with both Bret and Vince in respective ways. Its easy to look back now, out of the heat of the moment and say that it was uncalled for or could have been done differently, but events unfold in moments in time where emotional investment cannot be juggled around.

Vince, paranoid about WCW and Ted Turner was right to do all he did to protect the WWF. Furthermore, if Bret didn't want to drop the belt to Shawn because of Shawn being disrespectful, that is obstructing business for the WWF I can't fault Vince for being insulted about that. The same can be said for Bret refusing to loose in Canada. Both scenarios can seem absolutely ridiculous to anyone other than Bret Hart.

Certainly, anyone has heard about and can see Bret's points in not jobbing to Shawn or loosing in Canada. It's a pride thing. Not jobbing to Shawn, actually I can see the point in. He was (by almost all accounts) an arrogant prick and it was a good protest tactic by Hart. I can see Bret's point in not wanting to lose the title in Canada, but he'd lost in that country before. Even though Bret was and is a Canadian Hero, I think Bret loosing to Shawn that night was great (and would have been better if they'd finished the match and Shawn cheated to win) because it makes HBK a lifetime heel in Canada (which is basically what ended up happening) and you forever have a massive drawing point there with Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart or another face in the future. That to me makes great business sense. Had the Screwjob not happened and Bret not left, could you imagine the drawing power of HBK vs. the Hitman rematch in Canada? Holy smokes! Bret Hart goes over clean in the rematch and exacts revenge for his home nation.

Based on the scenarios that were actually talked about, I've always thought it was best that the screwjob did happen. We got the Mr. McMahon character, HBK is put over as an even bigger heel and we got Austin vs. Michaels at WM14 instead of the apparently planned Hart vs. Michaels rematch - thereby launching Austin forevermore into the annuls of history.

At the same time, I wish Bret could have gone back to the WWF in 1999. I mean, by then, WCW had cut Bret Hart's glorified contract in half, so the argument about WCW and money goes out the window there. Jim Herd, JJ Dillon and Jim Cornette all have talked about the ubsured clauses in WCW talent contracts that basically allowed for almost every star's income to adjusted on a whim.

If Bret went back in 1999, we'd all hope that Owen's accident never takes place and even perhaps that Owen's main-event push is finally boosted as it was supposed to have in the weeks following Bret's depature in 1997.

However, I am more inclined nowadays to believe that Montreal was the greatest work in professional wrestling history. Jerry Lawler believes this; Earl Hebner doesn't rule it out and others have come forward suggesting the same thing. Accepting still that there was an issue with WWF affording Bret's contract, it's not unreasonable to think that this could have been planned as a way to get Vince over as a heel (which is what happened). Vince had been fine-tuning his heel character in Memphis years previously and I think he was looking for the perfect trigger to make him believably the most selfish, evil human being out there. Also, with WCW's track record of pushing ex-WWF stars to the moon, it could have been assumed that Bret would have been in a big main-event role in WCW while Shawn was on top in WWF and both Bret and Shawn getting much-needed time away from each other. Just two theories I have - I'm not saying that they were actually in the thought-process at the time.

Also, the Wrestling with Shadows crew happened to be making their subsequent film there at the time. The film-makers didn't have to be aware of what was going to happen, they just had to be there as it unfolded. Exactly what happened and has added to the credibility of the legitimacy of the screwjob. Could have easily been planned to have the crew there at that specific period of time when the screwjob would unfold. I know this one has been 'debunked' again and again, but everything's a possibility in the air of uncertanty.

Owen not being let out of his contract when the other Hart family members were. This goes in-line with the apparent scrapped main-event push for Owen off the back of the screwjob which originally played out following Survivor Series, but was apparently quelled by Shawn Michaels.

Perhaps only Vince knows for sure what the deal is, and as far as I'm concerned, it's all possible until the day we can get inside Vince's mind.
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  #20  
Old 01-06-2013, 09:03 AM
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I'm glad they all buried the hatchet. To the guy earlier who said Bret Hart had another month left on his contract, technically he didn't. His contract were determined by how many days he worked and up until Survivor Series, he was already about 20 days the amount he had to work for the year. I think this was mentioned during Wrestling With Shadows. So technically, he could have just left after that night and refused to show up, and there wasn't anything Vince could do legally. It was a bad situation for all parties. Vince panicked because of what happened previously, and he knew how vengeful of a person that Bischoff was. HBK just happened to be apart of the equation. If you were in his shoes, what would you have done? You could agree to screw over a guy you hate who is leaving the company while doing a favor for the boss, or go against your boss by telling your enemy what is going on and potentially risk your spot and career. I don't really think it was as much of HBK's fault as people made it out to be through the years. It is crazy to think that the Medusa/Women's Title trash thing actually was a small piece to the Montreal Screw Job puzzle.
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