Loser's Bracket Debate #19: Pancake -vs- hatehabsforever

[Dagger Dias]

Who was the bigger star: Hulk Hogan or Stone Cold?

This is a second round, Loser's Bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

Pancake won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

There is no maximum amount of posts for debaters in this round. Debaters can create unlimited replies until the allotted time of the debate runs out.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Sunday at 11am EST.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck to the participants.

[Ekacnap]

I wish to choose the debate that Hulk Hogan was a bigger star than Stone Cold.

[hatehabsforever]

Glad to hear that, Pancake. Obviously by default, I will argue that Stone Cold Steve Austin was the bigger star of the two. I will allow Pancake the honor of presenting his arguments first.

Good luck in this round, Pancake, it should be an interesting and fun topic.

[Ekacnap]

Same to you, Habs. Best of luck to you bro.

You hear that theme song? Of course you did. And when this song played in Madison Square Garden and into T.V sets, fans from all over the country got off their seats and tore off their Shirts in Hulkamania....Or at least tried to. The matter of the fact is, Hulk Hogan is not only the biggest star in professional wrestling, but at one point, was bigger than the industry he represented. Even today, Hulk Hogan is still the icon of professional wrestling. The top guys today like John Cena, and The Rock have admitted they still wish to have the power to energize the crowd and get the crowd behind like the Hulkster did.



Back in the late 70's and the 80's. Back when Professional Wrestling was nothing but old men wrestling in warehouses and ball rooms. Hulk Hogan was the man that put Professional Wrestling in his hands, and formed it into Sports Entertainment. You know the expression of carrying the torch? Hulkster didn't have a torch, he didn't have the huge fan following and sensation that Stone Cold Steve Austin had. Hogan traveled the world with Hulkamania spreading like wildfire. After all his blood, sweat, and tears. After body slamming Andre the Giant, after escaping the Camel Clutch from the Iron Shiek, after being one of the icons in the Rock 'n' Wrestling Connection on MTV every week. Hogan made that Torch, and after making that torch, he carried it better than anyone could ever hope to do.


Hogan's star power was so strong, that it was able to bring any young guy looking to break out into the spot-light, and put them in the main-event. Roddy Piper was able to break into the Main-event and become one of the best heels in the business after feuding with Hogan. If Randy Savage was teaming with anyone else as the Mega Powers, the feud blowing off would not have been anywhere near as memorable as it was and would not have put Randy Savage into a spot to become one of the biggest faces in Professional wrestling. The Ultimate Warrior would be shouting at the top of his lungs in the mid-card if it wasn't for a feud with the Hulkster.

Hell, Their wouldn't be a Stone Cold Steve Austin if it wasn't for Hogan changing the industry (yet again) in WCW. In the early 90's. When the fans were starting to turn on Hogan and his superhero, boy scout routine. Hogan became the figurehead and the front of the biggest, and infamous stable in Professional Wrestling history, the New World Order. The fans ate it up, it put WCW head to head against the biggest Wrestling promotion in the world. The same promotion that was built upon the large shoulders of Hulk Hogan. Hogan made not one, but two wrestling promotions to glory in the prime of his career, something only the Hulkster can say he has achieved.

But most importantly, if it wasn't for Hogan, their wouldn't be a Ultimate Warrior, or a Randy Savage, or even a WWF/E for that matter. Stone Cold has done a lot in his career, but in pales in comparison to the fact that Hulk Hogan transcended Professional Wrestling and made it the Main-Stream sensation it is today. Hulkamania and his 42' pythons run wild all over

[hatehabsforever]

This is a very interesting topic this week, trying to ascertain who is the bigger star, the Immortal Hulk Hogan, or the Rattlesnake, Stone Cold Steve Austin.



I don't think there's much doubt that these two guys are the head of the class regarding professional wrestlers; they are clearly number one and number two. Unfortunately for my opponent, even though he chose first, he simply chose the wrong guy. Who is the bigger star when comparing these two mega-stars? It's clearly this guy:



In order to really determine who is the bigger star of the two, there are many parameters which need to be addressed. We can look crowd response. We can compare their resumes and their respective accolades. Let's look at the companies in which they competed, and their relative importance and value to that organization, relative to the time they spent there. One can look at their relative individual competition. What is their star power beyond the ring? What is their impact on the business beyond the above? And where would they be today if they were still competing?

Crowd Response

With all due respect to both of these legends, when they were entering the ring, people knew it. People knew something special was about to go down. In case you've forgotten:




When that glass shattered, it didn't matter who was in the ring, where the arena was located, or what the circumstances were. Shit was about to get real, and the walls were coming down. No one could elicit consistent enormous pops like Stone Cold: not the Rock, not HBK, not even Hulk Hogan. Pro wrestling has had so many bonafide superstars in different organizations all over the world, and all have had their impact upon the crowd. But the Rattlesnake could draw a pop like none before him:



It didn't matter if he was heel or face, or whether it was a huge return or a regular weekly appearance on Monday Night RAW. No one could out pop SCSA, not even Hogan, and this speaks volumes (no pun intended) as to who had the greater star power in the WWF/WWE.

Accolades

Both of these superstars are highly decorated wrestlers who have won numerous titles and belts over their illustrious careers. In doing a little research, though, it became clear to be that Austin, in terms of championship reigns, simply fared a little bit better. If we are going to assess star power, let's restrict our comparison to the organizations with a truly national and even global audience. All due respect to some of the other organizations, but unless you are a pro wrestling diehard, you probably are not familiar with all of the various niche organizations with local appeal only, and these don't really contribute much to the assess of star power, which is the question at hand. Forget about New Japan, AWA, or even NWA or TNA; if we are assessing star power, this means impacting upon the greatest number of pro wrestling fans on the biggest stage. So let's look at accomplishments in WWF/WWE and WCW, the two most significant organizations on a national and international stage:

Hulk Hogan

WCW Heavyweight Champion: 6 times
WWF/WWE Champion: 6 times
WWF/WWE Tag Team Championship: 1 time
Royal Rumble: 2 times
Halal of Fame Inductee: Class of 2005

Steve Austin

WCW Heavyweight Champion: 2 times
WCW Tag Team Champion: 1 time
WCW World Television Champion: 2 times
WWF/WWE Champion: 6 times
WWF/WWE Intercontinental Champion: 2 times
WWF/WWE Tag Team Champion: 4 times
King of the Ring: 1 time (and Austin 3:16 is born)
Royal Rumble Winner: 3 times
Triple Crown Winner
Hall of Fame Inductee: Class of 2009

If we are talking star power, and we compare the relative accomplishments of the two of them in the largest global organizations, on the grandest stages, it seems apparent to me that Stone Cold Steve Austin holds a decided edge in terms of accolades. This is yet further evidence that he is the bigger star of the two legends.

Relative Importance To their Organization

Both of these superstars have held value to their respective organizations which is second to none. But in the grand scheme of things, I feel that Stone Cold Steve Austin carried more significance to the WWF/WWE than Hulk Hogan did.

Hulk Hogan was the top dog in the WWF for many years. With all due respect to him, though, a significant amount of that time, the WWF was pretty much uncontested on a national stage. They were the biggest organization in the world, and none of the local companies with their tiny geographical niches could compete. We have all heard of the expression: "big fish in a little pond". With all due respect to Hogan, but throughout these years, he was the biggest fish in the only pond. From the late 1970's to 1993, Hogan spent time in the WWF, and time away from it, but either way, in terms of star power, it was the WWF or nothing during this period.

Hogan left in 1993 and went to Japan and eventually onto WCW, culminating in the infamous Monday Night Wars, during which time, WCW overtook WWF on a consistent basis for approximately two years. We all know how the ratings looked back then.



Date Raw Nitro
1995-09-04 2.2 2.5
1995-09-11 2.5 2.4
1995-09-18 2.7 1.9
1995-09-25 1.9 2.7
1995-10-02 2.5 2.5
1995-10-09 2.6 2.6
1995-10-16 2.6 2.2
1995-10-23 2.2 2.6
1995-10-30 2.1 2.3
1995-11-06 2.6 2
1995-11-13 2.6 2
1995-11-20 2.3 2.5
1995-11-27 2.3 2.5
1995-12-04 2.6 2.4
1995-12-11 2.5 2.6
1995-12-18 2.3 2.7
1995-12-25 N/A 2.5
1996-01-01 2.6 2.5
1996-01-08 3 2.8
1996-01-15 2.4 3.5
1996-01-22 2.9 2.7
1996-01-29 2.4 2.8
1996-02-05 2.7 2.9
1996-02-12 N/A 3.7
1996-02-19 3.1 2.9
1996-02-26 3.1 3.2
1996-03-04 3.6 N/A
1996-03-11 2.9 3.2
1996-03-18 2.9 3.6
1996-03-25 2.8 3.1
1996-04-01 2.9 2.8
1996-04-08 4.7 N/A
1996-04-15 3.1 2.8
1996-04-22 3.3 2.7
1996-04-29 2.9 2.1
1996-05-06 4.1 1.9
1996-05-13 3.5 2.3
1996-05-20 2.3 3.1
1996-05-27 2.3 2.8
1996-06-03 2.3 3
1996-06-10 2.7 2.6
1996-06-17 2.3 3.4
1996-06-24 2.7 3.3
1996-07-01 2.6 3.3
1996-07-08 2.5 3.5
1996-07-15 2.6 3.4
1996-07-22 2.2 2.6
1996-07-29 2.1 3.1
1996-08-05 2.8 3
1996-08-12 2 3.3
1996-08-19 2.9 3.5
1996-08-26 N/A 4.2
1996-09-02 N/A 4.3
1996-09-09 2.4 3.7
1996-09-16 2.1 3.7
1996-09-23 2 3.4
1996-09-30 2.3 3.3
1996-10-07 2.1 3.5
1996-10-14 1.8 3.3
1996-10-21 2.6 3.2
1996-10-28 2 3.6
1996-11-04 2.3 3.4
1996-11-11 2.5 3.7
1996-11-18 2.4 3.2
1996-11-25 2.1 3.1
1996-12-02 2.3 3.4
1996-12-09 N/A 3.3
1996-12-16 N/A 3.2
1996-12-23 N/A 3.1
1996-12-30 N/A 3.6
1997-01-06 2.1 3
1997-01-13 2.3 3.4
1997-01-20 2.2 3.7
1997-01-27 2.2 3.6
1997-02-03 2.6 3.1
1997-02-10 2.3 3.8
1997-02-17 2.1 2.9
1997-02-24 2.5 3
1997-03-03 1.9 3.4
1997-03-10 2.3 3.5
1997-03-17 2.4 3.6
1997-03-24 2.5 3
1997-03-31 2.7 3.4
1997-04-07 2.2 3.7
1997-04-14 2.2 3.5
1997-04-21 2.8 3.4
1997-04-28 2.7 3.4
1997-05-05 2.8 3.2
1997-05-12 2.8 3.2
1997-05-19 3.1 3.6
1997-05-26 2.7 3.3
1997-06-02 2.5 3.3
1997-06-09 2.2 3.4
1997-06-16 2.4 3.3
1997-06-23 2.4 3.3
1997-06-30 2.5 3.3
1997-07-07 2.5 3.4
1997-07-14 2.6 3.5
1997-07-21 4.1 N/A
1997-07-28 2.9 3.4
1997-08-04 2.7 4.4
1997-08-11 2.9 3.8
1997-08-18 3.2 4
1997-08-25 N/A 5
1997-09-01 N/A 4.8
1997-09-08 2.2 4.3
1997-09-15 2.6 3.9
1997-09-22 2.4 3.7
1997-09-29 2.7 4
1997-10-06 3 3.9
1997-10-13 2.3 3.8
1997-10-20 2.9 4.6
1997-10-27 2.3 4.3
1997-11-03 2.6 4
1997-11-10 3.4 4.3
1997-11-17 3.1 4.1
1997-11-24 3 3.9
1997-12-01 3 3.8
1997-12-08 3 4.3
1997-12-15 2.7 4.1
1997-12-22 3.1 3.5
1997-12-29 3.6 4.6
1998-01-05 3.3 4.3
1998-01-12 3.4 4.6
1998-01-19 4 4.5
1998-01-26 3.5 4.7
1998-02-02 3.5 4.9
1998-02-09 3.2 4.6
1998-02-16 N/A 5.1
1998-02-23 3.2 4.6
1998-03-02 3.8 4.8
1998-03-09 3.6 4.9
1998-03-16 N/A 5.1
1998-03-23 3.6 4.6
1998-03-30 3.8 4.2
1998-04-06 4.7 4.6
1998-04-13 4.6 4.2
1998-04-20 4.4 5.1
1998-04-27 5.7 N/A
1998-05-04 5.5 3.5
1998-05-11 4.3 4.3
1998-05-18 5.3 N/A
1998-05-25 4.2 4.2
1998-06-01 4.4 3.7
1998-06-08 4.3 4
Date Raw Nitro
1998-06-15 4.3 4
1998-06-22 4.3 4.1
1998-06-29 5.4 4.1
1998-07-06 4 4.8
1998-07-13 4.7 4.5
1998-07-20 5 4.7
1998-07-27 4.9 4.7
1998-08-03 4.9 4.2
1998-08-10 4.5 4.6
1998-08-17 4.2 4.9
1998-08-24 4.7 5.2
1998-08-31 N/A 6
1998-09-07 N/A 5.5
1998-09-14 4 4.5
1998-09-21 4 3.9
1998-09-28 4 4.6
1998-10-05 4.55 4.5
1998-10-12 4.8 4.6
1998-10-19 5 4.4
1998-10-26 4.5 5.1
1998-11-02 4.8 4.1
1998-11-09 5 4.1
1998-11-16 5.5 4.3
1998-11-23 4.9 4.5
1998-11-30 5 4.2
1998-12-07 5.15 4.2
1998-12-14 5.2 4.2
1998-12-21 4.7 4
1998-12-28 4.9 4.6
1999-01-04 5.7 5
1999-01-11 5.5 5
1999-01-18 5.6 4.4
1999-01-25 5.5 5
1999-02-01 5.9 4.7
1999-02-08 N/A 5.7
1999-02-15 5.9 3.9
1999-02-22 5.5 4.8
1999-03-01 6.3 4.3
1999-03-08 6.4 4.4
1999-03-15 5.8 4.3
1999-03-22 6.4 4
1999-03-29 6.5 3.5
1999-04-05 5.8 4.3
1999-04-12 6.3 4.4
1999-04-19 6.1 4.1
1999-04-26 6 3.9
1999-05-03 6.4 3.4
1999-05-10 8.1 3.3
1999-05-17 6.4 3.8
1999-05-24 7.2 3.1
1999-06-07 6.7 3.2
1999-06-14 6.7 3.3
1999-06-21 6 3.1
1999-06-28 6.8 3.6
1999-07-05 6.2 3.3
1999-07-12 5.97 3.45
1999-07-19 6.3 3.3
1999-07-26 7.1 3.4
1999-08-02 5.9 3.1
1999-08-09 6.4 3.1
1999-08-16 6.6 3.3
1999-08-23 5.9 2.9
1999-08-30 4.2 4
1999-09-06 4.4 4.1
1999-09-13 6 3.3
1999-09-20 6.1 3.1
1999-09-27 6.8 3
1999-10-04 5.9 2.9
1999-10-11 6.1 2.6
1999-10-18 5.4 3.3
1999-10-25 5.6 3.5
1999-11-01 5.9 3.2
1999-11-08 5.4 3.4
1999-11-15 6.3 3.1
1999-11-22 5.5 3.4
1999-11-29 6.5 3.1
1999-12-06 6 3
1999-12-13 6.1 2.8
1999-12-20 5.8 3.2
1999-12-27 5.8 2.9
2000-01-03 6.4 3.3
2000-01-10 6.8 3.5
2000-01-17 6 3
2000-01-24 6.7 3.1
2000-01-31 6.6 2.8
2000-02-07 6.5 2.7
2000-02-14 4.4 3.6
2000-02-21 5.9 2.8
2000-02-28 6.5 2.1
2000-03-06 6.4 2.8
2000-03-13 6.3 2.6
2000-03-20 6.2 2.5
2000-03-27 6.6 2.6
2000-04-03 6.4 1.8
2000-04-10 6.2 3.1
2000-04-17 6.7 2.5
2000-04-24 7.1 3.1
2000-05-01 7.4 2.5
2000-05-08 6.2 2.8
2000-05-15 6.1 3.1
2000-05-22 7.1 3.03
2000-05-29 6.4 3
2000-06-05 5.9 2.8
2000-06-12 6.8 3
2000-06-19 5.8 2.7
2000-06-26 6.4 2.8
2000-07-03 5.3 2.3
2000-07-10 6 2.6
2000-07-17 6.2 2.4
2000-07-24 6.2 2.8
2000-07-31 6.4 2.7
2000-08-07 6.3 2.5
2000-08-14 5.9 2.4
2000-08-21 6.2 2.6
2000-08-28 4.9 3.5
2000-09-04 4.2 3.6
2000-09-11 5.8 3.2
2000-09-18 5.7 2.75
2000-09-25 5.4 2.9
2000-10-02 5.4 2.6
2000-10-09 5.4 2.5
2000-10-16 4.8 2.3
2000-10-23 5.5 2.2
2000-10-30 4.9 2.5
2000-11-06 5.1 2.5
2000-11-13 5 2.6
2000-11-20 5 2.3
2000-11-27 5 2.4
2000-12-04 5 2.45
2000-12-11 5.75 1.8
2000-12-18 4.8 2.3
2000-12-25 3.8 N/A
2001-01-01 4.55 N/A
2001-01-08 4.8 2.1
2001-01-15 5.2 2.6
2001-01-22 5.6 2.1
2001-01-29 5.4 2.6
2001-02-05 5 2.3
2001-02-12 4.8 2.1
2001-02-19 4.8 2.2
2001-02-26 5.1 2.3
2001-03-05 4.5 2.1
2001-03-12 4.9 2.1
2001-03-19 4.6 2.1
2001-03-26 4.7 3

What strikes me about the numbers is that WCW overtook WWF in the ratings, largely buoyed by the infamous Hollywood Hulk Hogan heel turn and his affiliation with the nWo. While this was a successful period and has to be largely attributed to Hogan, there were many other factors at work causing this to occur, not the least of which is the other defections from the WWF and the financial backing of Turner. However, the uprising was short lived and could not be sustained, again for several reasons. Why? Here's one big reason:





The birth of the entire Mr. McMahon versus Stone Cold Steve Austin was a pivotal factor in the turning of the tides in the Monday Night Wars, allowing WWF to return to the top and spelling the beginning of the end of WCW. Austin took this feud and carried it throughout the Attitude Era, and basically allowed the dominance of WWF to return. He carried the company for years in the fashion, and his impact is still felt in the company to this day, albeit to a lesser extent.

Unlike Hogan, who carried the WWF during it's basically uncontested years, and then mounted a challenge to WWF for two years during his WCW days, Stone Cold Steve Austin carried the company from the brink of disaster, against the stiffest competition WWF ever faced, and he brought the company back to a position of dominance. From where I'm sitting, that's star power. Austin proved over these years that without a doubt, he was a bigger star and a more integral component of his company than Hogan was.

Individual Competition

One determining factor in star power is the considering factor in terms of individual opponents as well. As Hulkamania was running wild back in the day, I would respectfully suggest that he was not facing the stiff type of competition that Austin was facing during his heyday with WWF. Case in point:





He faced a couple of other guys you may have heard of as well:





All due respect to the different athletes from different eras, while Hogan was doing his thing against guys like Piper, Warrior, and Andre, Stone Cold Austin was doing it against these guys, during a period of time that physicality was at its utmost. Again, the star power produced in matches against guys like I've depicted, not to mention Mick Foley, Undertaker, and many more, this star power far and away exceeds what Hogan was ever even in a position to produce.

Both of these guys personas transcend their in ring times. I would suggest to you that Stone Cold Steve Austin carries greater star power outside the confines of the ring. Both guys are highly recognizable. But while Hulk Hogan was being Mr. Nanny, Santa With Muscles, or appearing in Muppets in Space or even making a brief cameo in Rocky III, Steve Austin was appearing in movies such as The Expendables, The Longest Yard, and The Condemned. Better movies aimed more at their target demographic. Austin has appeared in action TV shows as well, while Hogan was parading his personal life around in garbage shows such as Hogan Knows Best.

If injuries had not taken their toll on the Rattlesnake, he'd still likely be a dominant figure in the WWE today. As opposed to a figurehead only in the distant second place organization. Rumors continue to swirl about a future match involving Austin, such as a rumored program with CM Punk. The fact that rumors of this nature still generate as much interest as they do today is proof positive of the star power of Stone Cold.

In conclusion, no one could debate the star power of either of these guys. For me to come on her and suggest that Hulk Hogan does not carry immense star would be asinine. However, there can only be one top guy, one guys whose star power outshines absolutely everyone else. And that guy is clearly the Rattlesnake, the one and only Stone Cold Steve Austin. In terms of crowd response, individual accolades, importance to their respective company at the relative time of their heyday, level of individual competition faced, not to mention impact in the main stream beyond the confines of the squared circle, I would suggest to you that with all due respect to the Immortal One, Stone Cold Steve Austin is the bigger star of the two.

Now judges, take my words to heart, and if you agree with my opinion, give me a HELL YEAH!!!!

[Ekacnap]

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

Crowd Response

Oh we want to talk about crowd reaction? Hulkamania made crowd reaction. That was the bread and butter of Hulkamania. Wrestling crowds were often stoic and silent before Hogan. Hell, before Hogan, professional wrestling shows were held in hangers and ballrooms. Listen to a couple of Hogan's pops in the late 90's.





(Skip to 4:04)

Hogan is the mother of all crowd reaction. No one cared to boo or cheer for a wrestler. Nor did anyone really have a gimmick or charisma to get the fans behind them. Hogan changed that, Hogan made wrestling exciting and fun to watch because he gave the crowd a reason to cheer him on, and he did it so well, it gave the fans a reason to boo whoever he was against in the ring. Look at the top guys before Hulk Hogan.







I bet only Professional Wrestling historians like Gelgerian will be able to say who these three men are. But you can go out to any third world country. Ask any tribesmen, and ask them "Who is Hulk Hogan?" And I bet you they will try and tear off their robe and start flexing their little pythons. Hulk Hogan is that huge. Even today top guys like John Cena and Bobby Roode are put to the measuring stick that is Hulk Hogan. Every Professional Wrestler in this business today wants to be the next Hogan. rarely does anyone compare the top guy in a wrestling promotion to Stone Cold.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

Accolades

Hulk Hogan

WCW Heavyweight Champion: 6 times
WWF/WWE Champion: 6 times
WWF/WWE Tag Team Championship: 1 time
Royal Rumble: 2 times
Halal of Fame Inductee: Class of 2005

Steve Austin

WCW Heavyweight Champion: 2 times
WCW Tag Team Champion: 1 time
WCW World Television Champion: 2 times
WWF/WWE Champion: 6 times
WWF/WWE Intercontinental Champion: 2 times
WWF/WWE Tag Team Champion: 4 times
King of the Ring: 1 time (and Austin 3:16 is born)
Royal Rumble Winner: 3 times
Triple Crown Winner
Hall of Fame Inductee: Class of 2009

Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold are from two, very different eras. Hogan didn't have the luxury of entering long term title feuds because of the fact they had limited T.V time, and had no Pay-Per-Views. His WWF title was defended in house shows, and shows inside Madison Square Garden.

Not only that, Hulk Hogan has had monster reigns with the majority of his world titles.

Hogans First WWF/E title: Hogan beat Iron Shiek (C) the title was retained from 1983- to 1988

Hogans Second WWF/E title: Hogan beat Randy Savage in April 1989 all the way to Apirl in 1990

Hogans Third WWF/E title: Hogan beat The Undertaker in December of 1991 before having the title stripped off of him.

Only until title reign Steve Austin that can hold a candle to one of Hogan's title reigns was in 2001 when he beat The Rock for the World Title. He held it for only five months before losing to Kurt Angle.

Now this is a debate on who was a bigger star. When you are the world champion of a Wrestling Promotion, that represents that you are the best that promotion has to offer. Hogan went on years of being the champion of the WWF/E. Making the WWF/E the biggest wrestling promotion in history.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

Relative Importance To their Organization

Now I really enjoyed this read Habs, it was really informative. And as you stated yourself, Hogan and the WWF/E were an uncontested promotion for years. What you failed to mention however, is that the WWF years before have fought tooth and nail with large wrestling promotions like the AWA, NWA, and Smokey Mountain. The WWF/E became the king of the hill because Hulk Hogan and the WWF/E made that hill. Not only was the WWF/E the biggest promotion in their industry, they were easily one of the biggest companies in the United States of America.

And also like you noted, Hulk Hogan did the same exact thing for World Championship Wrestling in the 1990's. Hogan, once again brought a company up from the ground and put it in contention with the WWF/E. And for a long while, was beating the WWF/E. You could say that Stone Cold was the head of the WWF/E. But you can say the same for Hogan. But Hogan is the only person anyone can say he took two wrestling promotions and made them into mega powers. (No pun intended)

And while we are at the topic of overall importance to a wrestling promotion. Lets talk about overall importance each Superstar had to Professional Wrestling itself. Steve Austin might have been huge for the WWF/E. But Hogan was bigger for Professional Wrestling. Steve Austin was the head of the Attitude era but Hogan was the head of the golden era. He is the head of professional wrestling. Hell, Hogan made the cover of Sports Illustrated in his hay day.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

Individual Competition

The individual Competition does not really pertain to the debate at hand. The matter of the fact is Hulk Hogan out shined anyone that wrestled in the squared circle. But if we have to go down this route, Hulk Hogan has immense talent he has worked with.









Oh yeah, and these guys too.

Click for Spoiler:

The Hulkster had tons of talent around him. But the Hulkster still stayed the top guy of the industry of his time because he was just that damn good. And even past his prime, he still got a bigger pop and and louder reactions than the talent past his generation.



This just continues to prove the point that Hulk Hogan is such a huge star, that even past his prime, and his generation of individual talent. He would still get a louder reaction and sell more tickets than anyone else in the backstage.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

Both of these guys personas transcend their in ring times. I would suggest to you that Stone Cold Steve Austin carries greater star power outside the confines of the ring.

Oh I'm sorry, did Stone Cold Steve Austin have his own Cartoon show? Or how about reality shows? Or how about Sports Illustrated Covers? You say Steve Austin had greater star power outside the ring but fail to mention the fact that Hulk Hogan brought that star power to the ring. He reeled in stars like Mr.T, and Cyndi Lauper and gave Professional Wrestling that jolt of Main-Stream media to propel it into a Million Dollar industry it is. And as a side-effect, that gave the Hulkster the main-stream sensation he is today. No shitty Reality Show, or stints in movies like Rocky III can dim the star power that Hulk Hogan still possess.

WHAT CHU GONNA DO HABS, WHEN HULKAMANIA RUNS WILD ON YOUU?

[hatehabsforever]

I really enjoyed watching the YouTube video in your opening post, Pancake, and it showed me that without a doubt, Hulk Hogan was a very popular superstar who really connected with the fans. No one is denying this fact. He is, without a doubt, the second most over guy in professional wrestling history. Second, of course, to Stone Cold Steve Austin. In his heyday, Hogan could elicit quite the crowd reaction. But no one out popped Austin. Here's another example of the magnitude of his ability to draw a crowd reaction:



For the last 10-15 years the crowd pops that Hogan draws have been largely nostalgia driven. As an active competitor, I'm not sure he would be physically able to draw a response like that today. Whereas Austin could enter into a program with Punk tomorrow and still blow the roof off any stadium. With any luck at all, he'll get the opportunity to prove this to us at WM29.

I can't help but note that you list Cena and the Rock as guys who admire Hogan's ability to draw energy from the crowd and excite an audience. Stone Cold is not one of the guys who credits Hogan in this manner. Why not? Because he is not envious of Hogan's ability in this regard, because he knows the truth, that he has the ability to out pop Hogan with no trouble at all. He was doing it at the peak of his popularity, and he could still do it today.

I like seeing you concede that Hogan's ability to be the top dog in the 70's and 80's was less of an accomplishment than Austin's ability to do so in the heat of the Wars between the two largest organizations in the world. As you said yourself, Hulk Hogan did so by competing against nothing but old men wrestling in warehouses and barrooms. While this is admittedly an exaggeration, the premise is so true. Hogan fabricated the torch and ran with it, which was damn admirable, but he did so against lesser talent in an uncontested organization. SCSA, on the other hand, grabbed the torch and ran with it during a period of time that the organization in which he competed was getting soundly beaten by their rivals. Remember, Austin carried little fanfare into his WWE run. Sure, he spent time in ECW and WCW, but let's face it, Stunning Steve Austin or The Ringmaster had little to do with the phenomenon that Austin became. Simply put, he was faced with the daunting task of bringing WWF from what was becoming a consistently second place group, for two years, and putting them on his back and carrying them back into the top position.

Our perspective on the nWo years and Hogan and Austin's role therein is clearly different. You credit Hogan for leading both WWF in the earlier stages of his career, and later leading WCW over them. As I said earlier, Hogan's earlier successes are tempered by the fact that he achieved them devoid of competition from outside. His achievements in WCW were notable, but he could only sustain them for two years, before Austin and the WWF were able to flex their muscles and overtake him. This displays for me the star power of Austin more so than Hogan. Hogan could get the job done when he was unopposed, but once competition presented itself, he could only achieve it (and not all by himself) for two years. Austin, on the other hand, was able to reinvent himself and take a company from a position of inadequacy, and bring them back to the top when facing the stiffest competition the company had ever seen. And he was able to sustain it for far longer. Indicative of the star power that Austin had, more so than Hogan.

Originally Posted by Pancake

Oh we want to talk about crowd reaction? Hulkamania made crowd reaction. That was the bread and butter of Hulkamania. Wrestling crowds were often stoic and silent before Hogan. Hell, before Hogan, professional wrestling shows were held in hangers and ballrooms.

Hogan is the mother of all crowd reaction. No one cared to boo or cheer for a wrestler. Nor did anyone really have a gimmick or charisma to get the fans behind them. Hogan changed that, Hogan made wrestling exciting and fun to watch because he gave the crowd a reason to cheer him on, and he did it so well, it gave the fans a reason to boo whoever he was against in the ring. Look at the top guys before Hulk Hogan.

Hulkamania made crowd reaction because, as you freely admitted, it came in an era of older, boring, less charismatic wrestlers. As you said, before Hulk Hogan came along, professional wrestling shows were stoic and silent in hangers and barrooms. So for Hulkamania to excite the crowd was not really that tough of an accomplishment. He didn't have anyone else in his era to challenge him in this area. He didn't have anyone else in a true rival organization to challenge him either. He came along and he transformed the business, I have not contested this fact. But he did I over inferior talent, at least in the charisma and fan friendly department.

In contrast, Steve Austin came into prominence at a time when he had challenges and options from within his own organization, as well from a rival organization that was initially ahead of the WWF. Unlike Hogan, who drew fan adoration because they didn't really have anywhere else to, fans in Austin's time had plenty of other athletes to focus on and get behind. For that matter, they could have rallied behind Hulk Hogan as he attacked the success of the WWF via the nWo. Or they could have thrown their support behind guys like these, guys who were pretty capable of eliciting a fan response in their own right:



Yet, as the numbers indicate, they didn't throw their support behind Hogan for very long at all. In astronomical numbers and with very loud voices, they chose to throw their support behind Stone Cold. Not because there was no one else, but rather, because there was no one else quite like him.

I bet only Professional Wrestling historians like Gelgerian will be able to say who these three men are. But you can go out to any third world country. Ask any tribesmen, and ask them "Who is Hulk Hogan?" And I bet you they will try and tear off their robe and start flexing their little pythons. Hulk Hogan is that huge. Even today top guys like John Cena and Bobby Roode are put to the measuring stick that is Hulk Hogan. Every Professional Wrestler in this business today wants to be the next Hogan. rarely does anyone compare the top guy in a wrestling promotion to Stone Cold.

All due respect to Backlund, Sammartino, and Thesz, but these guys are exactly what I am talking about. These men were terrific technical wrestlers, but not exactly the personification of charisma, who had no gimmick whatsoever. So for Hogan to grasp the charisma torch from their hands wasn't really too much of an accomplishment. He achieved tremendous star power (second most ever in fact) because he had no one else to challenge him for it. Whereas Austin took that attention and earned that reputation and response from such contemporaries as HBK, HHH, Taker, and the Rock, as well as from Hogan himself.

Of course everyone knows who Hogan is, there's no denying that. But everyone knows Stone Cold too. You say every professional wrestler aspires to be like Hulk Hogan, as opposed to Stone Cold. I disagree. You mention John Cena, who in his early days I would liken more to a Stone Cold wannabe rather than a Hogan look a like. Anti establishment, unconventional, hardly comparable to the Hulkamaniac version of Hogan. This time last year, I remember a guy rising rapidly through the ranks of the WWE by being an anti authority figure. I would suggest that CM Punk was cut far more from the cloth of Stone Cold, far more so than he was comparable to Hogan. As far as I'm concerned, Stone Cold set the bar for the establishment of this type of modern day superstar. When guys of the current age are emulating you, that certainly is indicative of star power.

Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold are from two, very different eras. Hogan didn't have the luxury of entering long term title feuds because of the fact they had limited T.V time, and had no Pay-Per-Views. His WWF title was defended in house shows, and shows inside Madison Square Garden.

Not only that, Hulk Hogan has had monster reigns with the majority of his world titles.

Hogans First WWF/E title: Hogan beat Iron Shiek (C) the title was retained from 1983- to 1988

Hogans Second WWF/E title: Hogan beat Randy Savage in April 1989 all the way to Apirl in 1990

Hogans Third WWF/E title: Hogan beat The Undertaker in December of 1991 before having the title stripped off of him.

Only until title reign Steve Austin that can hold a candle to one of Hogan's title reigns was in 2001 when he beat The Rock for the World Title. He held it for only five months before losing to Kurt Angle.

Now this is a debate on who was a bigger star. When you are the world champion of a Wrestling Promotion, that represents that you are the best that promotion has to offer. Hogan went on years of being the champion of the WWF/E. Making the WWF/E the biggest wrestling promotion in history.

My point exactly. Hogan throughout the 80's, his particular heyday, was the man. But there really wasn't anyone who was going to step up and challenge him for it. While Austin had the Rock, and Shawn Michaels, and Triple H, and the Undertaker, and Bret Hart, and others who could have emerged as the guy with the greatest star power, they didn't: Stone Cold Steve Austin did. There really wasn't anyone who was going to step up and threaten Hogan. Ultimate Warrior didn't have the staying power, as we saw from his rise and fall. Andre, with his style of wrestling and his lack of communication skills, wasn't going to threaten Hogan in the charisma department. Really the only one was Macho, whereas Austin had several contemporaries who could have surpassed his star power, but didn't.

And also like you noted, Hulk Hogan did the same exact thing for World Championship Wrestling in the 1990's. Hogan, once again brought a company up from the ground and put it in contention with the WWF/E. And for a long while, was beating the WWF/E. You could say that Stone Cold was the head of the WWF/E. But you can say the same for Hogan. But Hogan is the only person anyone can say he took two wrestling promotions and made them into mega powers. (No pun intended)

Hulk Hogan was a significant component to the success of WCW, but for one thing, he didn't do it alone. He did it along side of several high profile ship jumpers in the names of Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, and Lex Luger. Not to mention the impact of Eric Bischoff and Ted Turner. Sure, he helped bring WCW into contention with WWF, surpassing them for a while. But he was unable to sustain it, only managing to reach that point for about two years, before the star power of Stone Cold took it back.



Performances like the above, performed right in the heat of the Monday Night Wars, brought WWF back from the brink and pulled them ahead of WCW, where they would remain until the company went defunct. It was during these times that the star power of Steve Austin was on highest display. Steve Austin had to perform at this level while being challenged both from within and without the Federation. Hogan had to do it against the Iron Sheik or Sergeant Slaughter. For me, Stone Cold had to be the far greater star to pull things off under these circumstances.

The individual Competition does not really pertain to the debate at hand. The matter of the fact is Hulk Hogan out shined anyone that wrestled in the squared circle. But if we have to go down this route, Hulk Hogan has immense talent he has worked with.

Individual competition is definitely pertinent to this discussion. The quality of the opposition definitely helps showcase the degree of star power in existence. Not to be redundant, but Stone Cold had to do it against top notch talent, whereas Hogan really didn't have to do so, at least not to the same degree.

And even past his prime, he still got a bigger pop and and louder reactions than the talent past his generation.

I couldn't help but make this same observation. Most of the video evidence you have displayed show Hogan getting nostalgia pops. You should have shown footage of the Rock versus Hogan, that would have been even greater evidence of the nostalgia pops that the aging Hogan was getting and is still getting. I'm not so sure, though, that this really speaks to his star power, or simply to the fact that fans will cheer for aging superstars in decline due to past memories and their affinity for nostalgia. Just ask Ric Flair, fans love this stuff. I'm not showing pops that SCSA got as he hobbled out to the ring in his 50's to the adoration of the fans. I'm showing footage of Austin's crazy pops in the focal point of his career, like this:



(Love that song, by the way )




Basically, you have shown me lots of evidence, and discussed with me, evidence of the greatness that's Hulk Hogan. No one would dispute it. As I have conceded, I would rank him as a clear number two professional wrestler of all time in terms of star power. But he still falls short of Stone Cold Steve Austin. While Hogan was doing things early in his career, with minimal opposition or competition, Stone Cold consistently was the biggest star amongst the biggest competition, whether it be from within his own organization, or from beyond it. When Hogan had to put his star power on display against the best, he did well...for two years. Then Stone Cold rose up and took the reigns and showed his dominant star power against the stiffest competition possible. As I continue to read through old material, and peruse old photos and videos, I feel more strongly than ever: in a direct comparison between Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin, the choice is clear. Stone Cold Steve Austin is the bigger star of the two legends.

And that's the bottom line, because hatehabsforever said so!!!

[Ekacnap]

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

For the last 10-15 years the crowd pops that Hogan draws have been largely nostalgia driven. As an active competitor, I'm not sure he would be physically able to draw a response like that today. Whereas Austin could enter into a program with Punk tomorrow and still blow the roof off any stadium. With any luck at all, he'll get the opportunity to prove this to us at WM29.

Does it matter how or why the crowd pops? If I were in charge of booking, I would rather send out Hogan and get a nostalgia pop than send out guy like Alberto Del Rio who wouldn't get any reaction at all. People still love Hogan, people will still pay to see Hogan. And if Wrestlemania 28 is any testament to the fact that nostalgia sells tickets and it sells PPV's. My dad loves The Rock, he was his favorite wrestler back in the Attitude Era. So his $90 ticket was from nostalgia. I didn't have the same nostalgic feel to it as my dad did. But I still loved the hell out of the show. So what is the difference between my dad's $90 ticket and my $90 ticket? Absolutely nothing but the seating.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

I like seeing you concede that Hogan's ability to be the top dog in the 70's and 80's was less of an accomplishment than Austin's ability to do so in the heat of the Wars between the two largest organizations in the world. As you said yourself, Hulk Hogan did so by competing against nothing but old men wrestling in warehouses and barrooms. While this is admittedly an exaggeration, the premise is so true.

Geez, look at these giant crowds in Smoky Mountain Wrestling.



http://www.celebritynetworth.com/wat...vs-matt-jewel/

Here is a video of one Lou Thesz's huge matches.

Professional Wrestling was not a profitable career path for anybody. That is a fact. In fact, it used to be a side show at town fairs and carnivals. It wasn't until Vince McMahon took a risky dive into his money and luckily for him and his company made a giant splash and changed the entire landscape of professional wrestling for the better. Everyone and anyone who was a name in professional wrestling wanted to work in the WWF or WCW. Because they knew the paycheck was in those promotions.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

Hogan fabricated the torch and ran with it, which was damn admirable, but he did so against lesser talent in an uncontested organization. SCSA, on the other hand, grabbed the torch and ran with it during a period of time that the organization in which he competed was getting soundly beaten by their rivals. Remember, Austin carried little fanfare into his WWE run. Sure, he spent time in ECW and WCW, but let's face it, Stunning Steve Austin or The Ringmaster had little to do with the phenomenon that Austin became. Simply put, he was faced with the daunting task of bringing WWF from what was becoming a consistently second place group, for two years, and putting them on his back and carrying them back into the top position.

That same rival company being headed by Hulk Hogan. The same guy that made the torch Stone Cold was running with at the time. You know what made Hogan so huge. So huge that it propelled WCW ahead of the WWF/E for years? Hogan made it cool to be a heel. The fans loved Hulk Hogan and the nWo. The fans went nuts whenever the nWo would gang up and beat up other members of the WCW roster.



Hulk Hogan remade the business and made it one of the most successful industries in the world just being Hulk Hogan. But Hulk Hogan had the business sense to realize that the fans were not going to cheer on the same superman, boy scout that Hogan was in the 80's and the 90's. He needed to evolve and grow and become something bigger. And that was the nWo.

Which further shows how big of a star Hogan is. Doesn't matter if he is the same old Hulk Hogan in the 80's. Or if he was the head of the street gang of the nWo trying to take over the company by force. The crowd will always be behind him. Like you said, Stone Cold's original gimmicks did nothing for him. He was boring, and bland in the ring. He looked over to what WCW was doing and the nWo and said. "Damn, I got to find a way to be interesting. The fans like bad guys." And so came the birth of Stone Cold Steve Austin. Once again, Hulk Hogan can be credited to transcending the business and giving birth to stars like Stone Cold.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

Our perspective on the nWo years and Hogan and Austin's role therein is clearly different. You credit Hogan for leading both WWF in the earlier stages of his career, and later leading WCW over them. As I said earlier, Hogan's earlier successes are tempered by the fact that he achieved them devoid of competition from outside. His achievements in WCW were notable, but he could only sustain them for two years, before Austin and the WWF were able to flex their muscles and overtake him. This displays for me the star power of Austin more so than Hogan. Hogan could get the job done when he was unopposed, but once competition presented itself, he could only achieve it (and not all by himself) for two years.

You discredit Hogan's achievements by saying he didn't do it by himself, but you also put the fall of WCW on Hogan's shoulders. How does that make sense? Their were a long list of issues with WCW that caused its downfall to the WWF/E.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

Austin, on the other hand, was able to reinvent himself and take a company from a position of inadequacy, and bring them back to the top when facing the stiffest competition the company had ever seen.

Huh, doesn't that sound familiar? If I remember correctly, Hulk Hogan made a company that performed in High School gyms to a promotion that sells out the Madison Square Garden. Now Stone Cold bringing the WWF/E out from under WCW was no small feat by any means, but you act like he faced the same difficulty Hogan had to face in the early years of the WWF/E. Like I said in a earlier debate with CP Munk/Johnny Scumm, if it wasn't for Hogan's success, their wouldn't a WWF/E. That seems like pretty steep consequences if he didn't keep up with the high expectations the fans set for Wrestlemania III.

Austin didn't face that same kind of pressure. What would have happened if WWF/E was bought out by WCW? Well, you could imagine the same thing that happened back then. WWF/E stars would have been signed to WCW to make money. Guys like Austin, Rock, Shawn Michaels and Triple H would still have a job if that were the case. If Hogan didn't put the company on the shoulders, and drive it out of the High School Gyms and into the Madison Square Garden, their wouldn't be a Professional Wrestling industry.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

Hulkamania made crowd reaction because, as you freely admitted, it came in an era of older, boring, less charismatic wrestlers. As you said, before Hulk Hogan came along, professional wrestling shows were stoic and silent in hangers and barrooms. So for Hulkamania to excite the crowd was not really that tough of an accomplishment. He didn't have anyone else in his era to challenge him in this area.

Notice how the level of stars grew and escalated after Hulk Hogan reinvented and changed the business to the better? Once Hulkamania began to run wild, the business and the wrestlers started to improve and find more ways to get a reaction from the crowd. Ric Flair did it with his character and what he wore to the ring. Roddy Piper did it with his personalty and his charisma. Ultimate Warrior did it by slapping on massive amounts of paint and yelling absolute gibberish. Randy Savage did it by wearing colorful outfits and calling himself the Macho Man. Hulk Hogan had plenty of wrestlers in his time to challenge him to be the number one guy. But that was a result of being the first real "Number One Guy" in the industry. He was the pinnacle of Charisma and crowd reaction.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

He didn't have anyone else in a true rival organization to challenge him either. He came along and he transformed the business, I have not contested this fact. But he did I over inferior talent, at least in the charisma and fan friendly department.

That is because while the WWF/E grew and began swallowing territories and other promotions the top talent joined under the WWF/E banner. The WWF/E did one thing better than any other company thanks to Hogan, and that is make money. And in the grand scheme things, the promotion that can make the most money will be able to pay their talent the most money.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

Yet, as the numbers indicate, they didn't throw their support behind Hogan for very long at all. In astronomical numbers and with very loud voices, they chose to throw their support behind Stone Cold. Not because there was no one else, but rather, because there was no one else quite like him.

Once again, the same can be said for Hulk Hogan. Stone Cold represented a change in the WWF/E. But Hulk Hogan represents the change of Professional Wrestling as a whole. A change which, propelled Professional Wrestling into a Million dollar industry.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

He achieved tremendous star power because he had no one else to challenge him for it. Whereas Austin took that attention and earned that reputation and response from such contemporaries as HBK, HHH, Taker, and the Rock, as well as from Hogan himself.

Just because Stone Cold had to earn the top spot from guys like Rock, Taker, and HBK doesn't add value to the idea that Stone Cold is a bigger star than Hogan. Hulk Hogan took a company from the ground up and made it legendary. He made Professional wrestling a career that can make you a filthy rich. Stone Cold took the WWF/E and saved it from itself and WCW. Which is a huge achievement in its own right, but no where near as huge and important as anything Hulk Hogan has done.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

Hulk Hogan was a significant component to the success of WCW, but for one thing, he didn't do it alone. He did it along side of several high profile ship jumpers in the names of Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, and Lex Luger. Not to mention the impact of Eric Bischoff and Ted Turner. Sure, he helped bring WCW into contention with WWF, surpassing them for a while. But he was unable to sustain it, only managing to reach that point for about two years, before the star power of Stone Cold took it back. Performances like the above, performed right in the heat of the Monday Night Wars, brought WWF back from the brink and pulled them ahead of WCW, where they would remain until the company went defunct. It was during these times that the star power of Steve Austin was on highest display. Steve Austin had to perform at this level while being challenged both from within and without the Federation. Hogan had to do it against the Iron Sheik or Sergeant Slaughter. For me, Stone Cold had to be the far greater star to pull things off under these circumstances.

Once again, you completely say one thing, and then say something completely different. You say that Hogan wasn't alone in making WCW at one point, the biggest company in the world. But Stone Cold single handily, despite all the great talent around him, beat WCW and make the WWF/E the biggest company in the world. Hogan had the nWo, Austin had the Attitude Era.

Hogan had 20+ years of being the top banana in Professional Wrestling, as compared to Stone Cold who had maybe 5 or 10 until The Rock emerged and became the top guy. You can't honestly tell me that a guy who put a industry on his back for 20+ years who made two companies huge is not a bigger star to a guy who held onto the torch for only 5 or 10 years.

Originally Posted by hatehabsforever

I would rank him as a clear number two professional wrestler of all time in terms of star power. But he still falls short of Stone Cold Steve Austin.

Where you would be wrong.


PancakeMania is running wild in this debate!

[hatehabsforever]

Originally Posted by Pancake

Does it matter how or why the crowd pops? If I were in charge of booking, I would rather send out Hogan and get a nostalgia pop than send out guy like Alberto Del Rio who wouldn't get any reaction at all. People still love Hogan, people will still pay to see Hogan. And if Wrestlemania 28 is any testament to the fact that nostalgia sells tickets and it sells PPV's. My dad loves The Rock, he was his favorite wrestler back in the Attitude Era. So his $90 ticket was from nostalgia. I didn't have the same nostalgic feel to it as my dad did. But I still loved the hell out of the show. So what is the difference between my dad's $90 ticket and my $90 ticket? Absolutely nothing but the seating.

You've totally missed my point about the significance of the nostalgia pop. You are correct in that at a particular event, it doesn't matter why the crowd pops or doesn't. Obviously anyone would rather see a nostalgia pop than an ADR cricket chirping display.

On topic, though, we are trying to assess the significance of the extent of the crowd response as it pertains to the assessment of the star power of the superstar. My only point here is that I am showing clear and indisputable evidence of the types of crowd pops that Austin consistently achieved at the height of his career, thus providing evidence of the star power he possessed at that pivot point of his career. You are showing examples of crowd pops that Hogan elicited in the latter, more nostalgic stage of his career, which are not necessarily indicative of his greater degree of star power during his heyday. You have yet to convince me that Hogan necessarily drew a greater crowd reaction at the peak of his career than SCSA did. I would suggest that in fact he didn't. Hogan received good crowd responses early in his career, because he was in such stark contrast to the Backlund's and Thesz's of that era. He receives good reactions now due to nostalgia. But in the middle, including the peak of his in ring career, I have yet to see video evidence of him out popping the Rattlesnake.

Geez, look at these giant crowds in Smoky Mountain Wrestling.

Again, I think you are missing my point. Smoky Mountain Wrestling was clearly not drawing huge crowds. So when Hogan outperformed them early in his career, it was hardly much cause for celebration or surprise. You talk like Hulk Hogan singlehandedly transformed the business. That's a gross overstatement. Sure, he improved upon the types of numbers being put out by NWA, AWA, or SMW, but that hardly impresses me.

Professional Wrestling was not a profitable career path for anybody. That is a fact. In fact, it used to be a side show at town fairs and carnivals. It wasn't until Vince McMahon took a risky dive into his money and luckily for him and his company made a giant splash and changed the entire landscape of professional wrestling for the better. Everyone and anyone who was a name in professional wrestling wanted to work in the WWF or WCW. Because they knew the paycheck was in those promotions.

So who really deserves the credit here? Is it Hulk Hogan who transformed the business, or was it the vision and entrepreneurial spirit of VKM who did it, with Hogan simply being a piece of the puzzle? A significant piece, no denying that. But I think throughout this discussion, you award a lot of credit to Hogan that really should be bestowed upon McMahon.

That same rival company being headed by Hulk Hogan. The same guy that made the torch Stone Cold was running with at the time. You know what made Hogan so huge. So huge that it propelled WCW ahead of the WWF/E for years? Hogan made it cool to be a heel. The fans loved Hulk Hogan and the nWo. The fans went nuts whenever the nWo would gang up and beat up other members of the WCW roster.

Who made the torch, was it Hogan or was it McMahon? And this is starting to get redundant. WCW was propelled ahead of WWF for barely two years. But the star power of Hogan was unable to sustain the edge. The star power of Stone Cold took that propulsion away from WCW, and sustained it for far greater than two years. So who was the bigger star again?

Hulk Hogan remade the business and made it one of the most successful industries in the world just being Hulk Hogan. But Hulk Hogan had the business sense to realize that the fans were not going to cheer on the same superman, boy scout that Hogan was in the 80's and the 90's. He needed to evolve and grow and become something bigger. And that was the nWo.

Which further shows how big of a star Hogan is. Doesn't matter if he is the same old Hulk Hogan in the 80's. Or if he was the head of the street gang of the nWo trying to take over the company by force. The crowd will always be behind him. Like you said, Stone Cold's original gimmicks did nothing for him. He was boring, and bland in the ring. He looked over to what WCW was doing and the nWo and said. "Damn, I got to find a way to be interesting. The fans like bad guys." And so came the birth of Stone Cold Steve Austin. Once again, Hulk Hogan can be credited to transcending the business and giving birth to stars like Stone Cold.

Again, I think you are overstating Hogan's significance in the grand scheme of things in the business of professional wrestling, a common error amongst the IWC. Hogan did not reinvent the business; the courage and insight of McMahon is what changed the business of professional wrestling. The wrestlers who followed benefitted from McMahon's vision more so than from the trailblazing star power of Hogan.

Hogan was successful as both a face and as a heel. Same can be said for Stone Cold. Stone Cold's original gimmicks did nothing for him because they weren't Stone Cold. And the suggestion that Austin reinvented himself by patterning himself after the nWo and the fans' appreciation of the bad guy is surprisingly ludicrous. Austin reinvented the bad guy, the guy who stuck it to his boss and did to his boss what every working stiff could only dream of doing. Simply put, he did it better than the nWo and therefore, better than Hogan. Star power.

You discredit Hogan's achievements by saying he didn't do it by himself, but you also put the fall of WCW on Hogan's shoulders. How does that make sense? Their were a long list of issues with WCW that caused its downfall to the WWF/E.

I never put the fall of WCW on Hogan's shoulders, that's just silly. All I said was that he didn't have the star power to sustain it on his own. The long list of reasons for the downfall of WCW are well documented, no need to go off on a tangent about that here.

Austin didn't face that same kind of pressure. What would have happened if WWF/E was bought out by WCW? Well, you could imagine the same thing that happened back then. WWF/E stars would have been signed to WCW to make money. Guys like Austin, Rock, Shawn Michaels and Triple H would still have a job if that were the case. If Hogan didn't put the company on the shoulders, and drive it out of the High School Gyms and into the Madison Square Garden, their wouldn't be a Professional Wrestling industry.

An interesting amalgamation here of meaningless hypothetical speculation and gross overstatement and exaggeration.

Hogan had 20+ years of being the top banana in Professional Wrestling, as compared to Stone Cold who had maybe 5 or 10 until The Rock emerged and became the top guy. You can't honestly tell me that a guy who put a industry on his back for 20+ years who made two companies huge is not a bigger star to a guy who held onto the torch for only 5 or 10 years.

More overstatement and exaggeration regarding Hogan. 20+ years, many of which by your own admission were against lesser guys in lesser venues. There's no doubt that Hogan was the top guy in WWF for some time, until he moved on to Japan and other areas where his effects on the business were nowhere near as significant as you overstate them to be. I would give both legends a fairly comparable time at the top of the WWF. Except Austin stayed there with greater talent, greater competition, and ultimately, a far more pivotal impact upon the company than Hogan had.

I don't say any of this to downplay the impact of Hulk Hogan on the WWF and the business of professional wrestling as a whole. Obviously, the man was a key figure in many of the ways that you state. But in typical Hogan propaganda style, you overstate his value, as do so many younger members of the IWC. I think you have been force fed too much Hogan hype, brother.

I maintain my stance. The star power of Stone Cold Steve Austin would open a can of whoop ass on that of Hulk Hogan.

[Ekacnap]

In Conclusion.

Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold Steve Austin are two of the biggest stars in Professional Wrestling. Their is no denying that, and their is no way around that. But Hulk Hogan is without a shadow of a doubt, the biggest star in Professional Wrestling. His legend and his career out weigh and out class anything any other Wrestler wish to achieve. Stone Cold might have been huge for the WWF/E. But for only such a short time before giving the number on spot to The Rock. The Hulkster was the number one guy for decades. He brought Professional Wrestling up to a Million Dollar industry and caused more Main-Stream attraction and more legendary feats than Austin could ever hope to have. Maybe if Stone Cold was the top banana of Professional Wrestling for as long as the Hulkster was, than maybe you can say that Austin was the bigger star. But that is not the case, because Hogan was the top banana for not only the WWF/E, but for Professional Wrestling as a whole for almost 20 years.