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  #21  
Old 02-11-2011, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by LSN80 View Post
No, Im emphasizing them as what they are. One of the big parts of what makes a city a great sports town is the rivalries they generate. And no one city has more important rivalries then the city of Boston, past or present.
Actually if I were going to go with a city that has the biggest rivalries I'd with New York and Detroit isn't very far behind. But I also don't see them as one of the top important factors.

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It's a real rivalry because its the longest in NBA history. Like any rivalry, it goes through its ups and downs, but there's no denying that Wilt Chamberlain vs Bill Russell gave way to Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson which gave way to Kobe Bryant vs the Celtics big 3. The Pistons don't have that history with any team, and as such, don't have that rivalry.
Celtics/Lakers has always been an overrated rivalry. You say rivalries have ups and downs but in the 90's and mot of the 2000's their rivalry wasn't just down it was non existent. The Pistons rivals haven't been around as long as them so obviously they can't have the same history but Bulls/Pistons has been a great rivalry since the 70's and being in the same division it's one that is never non existent.


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No, it wins off of 4 teams that have strong rivalries. The Lakers/Celtics, no matter how you discount it, is the original and most storied rivalry in NBA history, hands down. Yankees/Red Sox is the greatest rivlalry in the history of professional sports likely, let alone MLB. Ive already conceded the Hawks/Red Wings rivalry, but the Bruins/Canadiens have one heck of a rivalry as well. The Patriots are currently involved in more rivalries(Jets, Colts, Steelers, to name 3) then any other team. Boston wins based on having the greatest rivalries in the NBA and MLB history respectively, and top 5 rivalries in the NHL and the NFL.
All of Detroit's teams have at least one historic rival and the same can't be said for Boston. All of the Pats rivals are relatively new and none of them have great history beyond around 10-15 years. Both have great rivalries but it's really a moot point because rivalries too me are not a major factor in talking about best sports city. It's obviously part of it but not a major factor.


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Actually it does, if you look at rivalry by the truest sense of the word. Outside of the state of Michigan(and who theyre playing) noone gives a darn about a Lions/Packers or Lions/Bears game. Pats/Steelers, Pats/Colts and Pats/Jets blow those away on a national scale, with ease. Why? because those are true rivalries, where competition is in play.
Lol. Pats/Steelers is not a rivalry and the other two are both very new. They may be good now but they have relatively no history. Not good examples.


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I didn't re-show the numbers, I added the NBA and NHL ones if you bothered to read it, having shown the NFL and MLB ones previously. And the Massachusettes unemployment rate right now is the highest that it's been in fifteen years, at 9%, and has risen every year since 2002. Is it less then Michigan rate? Sure. Is it higher then the national average? Significantly. Yet they continue to fill their stadiums, which makes those numbers entirely relevant. Attendance hasn't dropped off as unemployment has to it's highest rate in fifteen years in the state.
9% is still just half of Michigan's rate and Massachusetts is a much more wealthy state then Michigan so those factors are huge contributors to why Boston still has higher attendance.



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The passionate fan line is entirely relevant when you look at it within the context of which I said it. I simply showed that Boston, in all four major sports, fill their stadiums to capacity. How does that not reflect on the passion of the Boston sports fan? It does. I did say "unfortunately" when I added that some people go to sporting events at the expense of their family, so your argument about sporting event> providing for family is just reiterating mine.
And I've shown that Boston is not going through the same thing that Detroit and the state of Michigan is.


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But they do count, in terms of baseball, and it's 7-4 in favor of the Red Sox.

The Red Wings win this at 11-5. There's no denying that the Wings are the most dominant NHL franchise in history outside of Montreal.

It's not even close here, as the Celtics own the Pistons 17-3. The Celtics still are the dominant franchise, just like Montreal is in hockey.
So each team has two sports with the edge in titles. One of those teams is the Lions which is the main team you have completely shit on.



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And you're completely discounting the fact that the Celtics/Lakers is the original and longest rivalry in the history of the NBA. No other rivalry comes close in terms of length and importance to the sport. They've met more times in the playoffs then any other two teams, which is remarkable considering they play in seperate conferences.
I'm not discounting it at all. Just saying that it is very overrated and unless the teams are both great it is non existent.


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Not since the NFL merger they haven't. The Lions have never appeared in a Super Bowl and won only playoff game since the NFL merger in 1960. The Patriots have more Lombardi trophies than the Lions have playoff victories, 3-1. Since the merger, the Lions are the ONLY franchise in the NFC who have yet to win an NFC Championship game. So it's 3-1 Boston in terms of major sports franchises.
You just said above that pre 60's counted in MLB and now all of the sudden it doesn't in the NFL because the merger hadn't happened? I guess the Celtics first 11 Titles don't count because there were only 8-14 teams in the league and they have only won one NBA title since the NBA has had 25 or more teams. I guess the Red Sox first 5 WS don't count because there were a lot less teams. You can't have it both ways homie.


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Not even close. Im loathe to give Boston credit for anything, but one thing I can say for sure. They're the best sports town in the United States, easily surpassing Detroit.
They don't easily surpass shit and I have proven that time and again.
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  #22  
Old 02-11-2011, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Sexy View Post
Actually if I were going to go with a city that has the biggest rivalries I'd with New York and Detroit isn't very far behind. But I also don't see them as one of the top important factors.Celtics/Lakers has always been an overrated rivalry.I'm not discounting it at all. Just saying that it is very overrated and unless the teams are both great it is non existent. All of Detroit's teams have at least one historic rival and the same can't be said for Boston. All of the Pats rivals are relatively new and none of them have great history beyond around 10-15 years.
I do see it as being a large factor, and feel that Boston is the most well rounded when it comes to rivalries. The Bruins and Canadiens have met more times in the postseason then any other two NHL franchises. Celtics/Lakers has been a rivalry since the 1950's and the two teams have met more 12 times in the NBA Finals, more then any other two teams. That's hardly overrated. Noone will discount Yankees/Red Sox, and Patriots/Jets have been a rivalry since the merger in 1970, it's just escalated over the past 15 years since Bill Parcells left the Patriots for the Jets in 1996. 4 teams, 4 lengthy, historic rivalries. The same can't be said for Detroit. Just because Detroit has played Green Bay and Chicago more then any other team doesn't mean that they're great rivalries. Both series have been incredibly lopsided, especially in recent years. I feel that rivalries do play a large part in determining a great sports town. Like with winning, it's not the end-all be-all, but its significant. Detroit/Green Bay and Detroit/Chicago are terrible examples, because they're not real rivalries.

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You say rivalries have ups and downs but in the 90's and mot of the 2000's their rivalry wasn't just down it was non existent. The Pistons rivals haven't been around as long as them so obviously they can't have the same history but Bulls/Pistons has been a great rivalry since the 70's and being in the same division it's one that is never non existent.
You seem to be equating playing a team many times to a good rivalry. Bulls/Pistons is and has been a non-existant rivalry since 1999 due to the Bulls by and large being a bad team since Jordan retired, and having won only one playoff series during that stretch. They were only a great rivalry during the 15 year stretch in the 80's and 90's, as Chicago's main rivals in the 70's were the Lakers and the Milwaukee Bucks, not the Pistons. The Pistons were a bad team during the 70's. Celtics/Lakers have been a rivalry since the 1950's and continues to this day.

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9% is still just half of Michigan's rate and Massachusetts is a much more wealthy state then Michigan so those factors are huge contributors to why Boston still has higher attendance.And I've shown that Boston is not going through the same thing that Detroit and the state of Michigan is.
It's actually alot closer then you'll acknowledge. According to the 2010 United States Census Bureau, the poverty rate in Massachusettes is 10%, while the poverty rate in Michigan is 12%.
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Source: United States Census Bureau

(Rank) (State) (Poverty Rate)
1 New Hampshire 5.6%
2 New Jersey 6.8%
3 Vermont 7.6%
4 Minnesota 8.1%
5 Hawaii 8.6%
6 Delaware 9.2%
7 Utah 9.2%
8 Virginia 9.2%
9 Connecticut 9.3%
10 Nebraska 9.5%
11 Maryland 9.7%
12 Idaho 9.9%
13 Alaska 10.0%
14 Massachusetts 10.1%
15 Washington 10.2%
16 Wisconsin 10.2%
17 Nevada 10.6%
18 Wyoming 10.6%
19 Florida 11.1%
20 North Dakota 11.2%
21 Pennsylvania 11.2%
22 Iowa 11.3%
23 Colorado 11.4%
24 Illinois 11.5%
25 Missouri 11.6%
26 South Dakota 11.8%
27 Michigan 12.0%
28 Oregon 12.0%
29 Rhode Island 12.1%
30 Ohio 12.3%
31 Kansas 12.5%
32 Indiana 12.6%
33 Maine 12.6%
34 North Carolina 13.1%
35 California 13.2%
36 Arkansas 15.9%
37 Montana 13.8%
38 Georgia 14.4%
39 New York 14.5%
40 Kentucky 14.8%
41 Tennessee 15.0%
42 South Carolina 15.0%
43 Arizona 15.2%
44 West Virginia 15.4%
45 Oklahoma 15.6%
46 Texas 16.2%
47 Alabama 16.7%
48 New Mexico 17.9%
49 Louisiana 18.3%
50 Mississippi 20.1%
51 District of Columbia 21.3%


2% is a relatively small difference, which leads to the likely conclusion that there are other factors, such as poor team performance, fan loyalty, or both that are leading to the disparity in attendance figures. You haven't shown anything in regards to the state's poverty levels or unemployment rate, you've simply made the statement repeatedly that Michigan is far worse off then Massachusettes. This Census Bureau data actually substantiates the fact that they're not far off.

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So each team has two sports with the edge in titles. One of those teams is the Lions which is the main team you have completely shit on.
The last "title" the Lions won was in 1957, which is the longest drought in the history of American football. In the Super Bowl era(1970-present), the Lions have won one playoff game. They're one of only 4 teams that have yet to qualify for the Super Bowl.

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You just said above that pre 60's counted in MLB and now all of the sudden it doesn't in the NFL because the merger hadn't happened? I guess the Celtics first 11 Titles don't count because there were only 8-14 teams in the league and they have only won one NBA title since the NBA has had 25 or more teams. I guess the Red Sox first 5 WS don't count because there were a lot less teams. You can't have it both ways homie.
Im not trying to have it both ways, just stating it the way the NFL in its current inception recognizes it. The NFL recognizes Pittsburgh as having won the most titles, not the Packers. In the same vein, they recognize the Patriots having won 3 Super Bowls, and the Lions 0. Im not and I won't argue that the Lions didnt win 4 NFL championships, that would be silly. But thy've yet to qualify for a Super Bowl, let alone win one. In that vein, it's 3-0 Patriots. The Celtics and the Pistons entered the NBA at the same time, and it's 17-3 Celtics. The Detroit Tigers and Boston Red Sox were each among the 8 charter MLB franchises, and it's 7-4 Red Sox. The Detroit Red Wings and Boston Bruins are among the "Original Six" NHL teams, with Detroit holding an 11-5 advantage. Detroit won all four of it's NFL championships before the Patriots were founded in 1960. Since the Patriots were founded and the two were actually able to compete against one another, it's 3-0 Patriots. So in 3 of the 4 major sports, with playing surfaces leveled, it's 3-1 Boston.

As Ive again shown, with factual material, a breakdown of franchises, as well as the emphasis on rivalries, the city of Boston is second to none in terms of being the greatest sports city.
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  #23  
Old 02-12-2011, 12:09 PM
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In conclusion, I reiterate my contention that New York represents the best sports city. While not my personal favorite by any stretch of the imagination (as that would clearly be Boston), New York City has to be seen as the Mecca of professional sports. There are a number of reasons why I feel this way, reasons that quite simply do not apply to any other city.

The sheer size of New York City alone gives them a decided edge. The highest population in the country by default means more sports fans. More global awareness and appeal means more popularity beyond the confines of the city, bringing a plethora of fans from elsewhere with it. The passion of the fans is a big deciding factor in the determination of the best sports city. I see just as much passion amongst the New York fan base as I do anywhere else, just in greater numbers. There is no one going to convince me that the Yankees do not inspire more passion in its vast fan base than the Tigers do, or that the Giants do not generate more emotion on a greater scale than the hapless Lions achieve.

New York city houses seven franchises in the four major North American sports leagues. That includes both leagues in MLB, both conferences in the NFL, two teams with rich heritages in the NHL, and an NBA team that may be lacklustre at times, but brings out the fans, star-studded and otherwise, to a significant degree. No other city can make this claim. This does not result in less loyalty amongst the fans for the city. At most it slightly dilutes it within the same city, but even a fan base diluted amongst two franchises in the same city (which I am not conceding) still results in the same claim to fame for the city as a whole, as the top sports city.

Rivalries can be argued to the nth degree, but they definitely are a significant component of the question at hand. Yankees/Red Sox. Jets/Steelers/Patriots. Giants/Cowboys/Redskins/Eagles. All cities can claim significant rivalries, and New York's are right up there with anyone else.

Championships have been held by pretty much all of the New York teams. The Yankees being the most obvious and impressive, but the Giants, Jets, Rangers, Islanders, and Mets have all held the top prizes in their respective sports. Even when not at the absolute pinnacle, New York teams are always in the mix.

Let's not bring the recession and the financial woes of any cities into the discussion. This has been a global phenomenon and has affected all cities to a significant degree. Even if I concede that Detroit has been hit harder than other cities, I still see this point as largely irrelevant to this discussion as a whole.

There is no shortage of excellent sports cities. New York, Boston, Chicago, and Pittsburgh have all been referenced in this thread. Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Dallas, there are lots of other cities as well who could claim to be a big time sports city. Simple fact of the matter is, though, there's only one New York City. And it is undoubtedly the best sports city out there, as much as it pains me to admit it.
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  #24  
Old 02-12-2011, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LSN80 View Post
I do see it as being a large factor, and feel that Boston is the most well rounded when it comes to rivalries. The Bruins and Canadiens have met more times in the postseason then any other two NHL franchises. Celtics/Lakers has been a rivalry since the 1950's and the two teams have met more 12 times in the NBA Finals, more then any other two teams. That's hardly overrated. Noone will discount Yankees/Red Sox, and Patriots/Jets have been a rivalry since the merger in 1970, it's just escalated over the past 15 years since Bill Parcells left the Patriots for the Jets in 1996. 4 teams, 4 lengthy, historic rivalries. The same can't be said for Detroit. Just because Detroit has played Green Bay and Chicago more then any other team doesn't mean that they're great rivalries. Both series have been incredibly lopsided, especially in recent years. I feel that rivalries do play a large part in determining a great sports town. Like with winning, it's not the end-all be-all, but its significant. Detroit/Green Bay and Detroit/Chicago are terrible examples, because they're not real rivalries.
You're asinine to say Detroit/Green Bay and Detroit/Chicago aren't rivalries. You just said above the Pats and Jets were only a good rivalry the last 15 years but it started in 1970. If that's true then once again you can't have it both ways. Either way it's irrelevant because as I've stated many time too much emphasis is being placed on something like rivalries to answer the question of best sports city.


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You seem to be equating playing a team many times to a good rivalry. Bulls/Pistons is and has been a non-existant rivalry since 1999 due to the Bulls by and large being a bad team since Jordan retired, and having won only one playoff series during that stretch. They were only a great rivalry during the 15 year stretch in the 80's and 90's, as Chicago's main rivals in the 70's were the Lakers and the Milwaukee Bucks, not the Pistons. The Pistons were a bad team during the 70's. Celtics/Lakers have been a rivalry since the 1950's and continues to this day.
Lol you must like painting yourself in corners. Lakers/Celtics have had plenty of down time when both teams were shitty and so have Pats/Jets. Once again you can't have it both ways. You shit on Detroit rivalries with down times in competitiveness yet you constantly dismiss the down time in Boston rivalries. You're also 100% wrong saying Bulls/Pistons weren't main rivals in the 70's because the pistons sucked. The Pistons made the playoffs 4 times in the 70's and the Bulls 6 times so the teams were fairly even. They also met during the 1974 playoffs and had a tough 7 game series. It wasn't the peak by any means but the rivalry was certainly there.


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It's actually alot closer then you'll acknowledge. According to the 2010 United States Census Bureau, the poverty rate in Massachusettes is 10%, while the poverty rate in Michigan is 12%.


2% is a relatively small difference, which leads to the likely conclusion that there are other factors, such as poor team performance, fan loyalty, or both that are leading to the disparity in attendance figures. You haven't shown anything in regards to the state's poverty levels or unemployment rate, you've simply made the statement repeatedly that Michigan is far worse off then Massachusettes. This Census Bureau data actually substantiates the fact that they're not far off.
The unemployment and overall wealth numbers are much more telling then poverty numbers. The definition of poverty isn't tied to the absolute value a family can afford but rather it's tied to a relative level based on how much is made. There are people below the relative level that are considered living in poverty but are still making more money then you'd think. It's also different doing an entire state vs just the city. Detroit and it's closest surrounding cities are not the most wealthy while Boston is surrounded by many wealthy neighborhoods.



Quote:
The last "title" the Lions won was in 1957, which is the longest drought in the history of American football. In the Super Bowl era(1970-present), the Lions have won one playoff game. They're one of only 4 teams that have yet to qualify for the Super Bowl.
Thanks for saying what I already know.



Quote:
Im not trying to have it both ways, just stating it the way the NFL in its current inception recognizes it. The NFL recognizes Pittsburgh as having won the most titles, not the Packers. In the same vein, they recognize the Patriots having won 3 Super Bowls, and the Lions 0. Im not and I won't argue that the Lions didnt win 4 NFL championships, that would be silly. But thy've yet to qualify for a Super Bowl, let alone win one. In that vein, it's 3-0 Patriots. The Celtics and the Pistons entered the NBA at the same time, and it's 17-3 Celtics. The Detroit Tigers and Boston Red Sox were each among the 8 charter MLB franchises, and it's 7-4 Red Sox. The Detroit Red Wings and Boston Bruins are among the "Original Six" NHL teams, with Detroit holding an 11-5 advantage. Detroit won all four of it's NFL championships before the Patriots were founded in 1960. Since the Patriots were founded and the two were actually able to compete against one another, it's 3-0 Patriots. So in 3 of the 4 major sports, with playing surfaces leveled, it's 3-1 Boston.
Of course you are. You are putting down the Lions pre modern day era success while still praising teams like the Red Sox for all their titles in the early 1900's and praising the Celtics for all the titles they won in a much smaller league. Most of titles came with just 8 teams in the league, some with 14, and they've only won one title with 25+ teams in the league.

Quote:
As Ive again shown, with factual material, a breakdown of franchises, as well as the emphasis on rivalries, the city of Boston is second to none in terms of being the greatest sports city.
You've shown nothing but your inability to stay consistent with your arguments.
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Old 02-12-2011, 03:37 PM
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Closing

Like I said in my opening post Detroit is the best sports city. When it comes to performance over the years, the fans, and all of the stadiums from their history to how good of facilities there are, no city is better then Detroit. They also have tons of history and some of the best athletes ever have come from the city. Guys like Jerome Bettis, Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson, Mike Modano, Chris Webber all either were born or grew up in the city. Not to mention the greats like Al Kaline, Gordie Howe, Steve Yzerman, Barry Sanders, and Isiah Thomas who have all played their careers in the city. I mean shit, Dave Bing is an all time great Piston player and he is now the mayor of the city. You best believe people being fans of him as a player played a big role in him being elected. The other cities aren't bad choices, they are just the wrong choice.
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:08 PM
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im going to reiterate what ive said all along: boston is the top of the mountain when it comes to sports cities. i dont like acknowledging this, but to deny it would be a large mistake. no other city has deeloped more significant or historic rivalries. whether it be the longevity of the lakers/celtics, the pure hatred between the yankees/red sox, or the multitude of meetings between the canadiens/bruins in the playoffs, boston is second to none. lets not dicount the patriots either, as they've developed significant rivalries with the jets, and more recently, the steelers and colts. ive clearly shown how boston fans are second to none as well. ive demonstrated how the recession has hit boston in the same manner they've hit detroit and other other cities while clearly showing how attendance in boston is more consistent across sports then new york, chicago, detroit and pittsburgh. any argument to the contrary be damned , boston fans support their teams across all four sports more then any other. finally, bostons championship pedigree cannot be denied. the red sox won the first world series. the bruins are apart of the "original six" in hockey, and have captured five stanley cups. the patriots have won 3 super bowls and can eily stake m as the of the past decade. the coup de gra is the celtics , who have won 17 nba championships, more then any other. because of the legacy, their intense rivalries, their championship pedigree and their unwavering fan base, its easy to see boston is the greatest sports town.
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