WrestleZone Forums - General Wrestling Discussion http://forums.wrestlezone.com This is the place for all topics that do not specifically fit in one of the other forums. en Thu, 20 Jun 2013 01:56:46 GMT vBulletin 60 http://forums.wrestlezone.com/images/bigred/misc/rss.jpg WrestleZone Forums - General Wrestling Discussion http://forums.wrestlezone.com Why are you a fan? http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256771&goto=newpost Wed, 19 Jun 2013 03:02:32 GMT I have been a wrestling fan as long as I can remember. While I won't tell you my exact age, I will hint by saying that I do own a baby picture of myself smiling at a camera, while Hulk Hogan is bodyslamming some poor jobber on the TV screen behind me (and yes, this is pre-WCW Hogan I refer too. That may be my ego clarifying the above statement).

I feel bold enough to say wrestling has been with me for a substantial part of my life, while admitting to drifting in and out fandom. I've left this fandom because of lack of interest in the product. It has been due to more entertaining alternatives. Even simpler, it's been just because I didn't live with my cable-paying parents anymore. I could have given up at any time with the entire 'genre'. Ultimately, though, I always came back to a genre I cared about. So, yes, that lead to some questions. Why did I care so much? Why did I want to come back to the fold of wrestling? I always came back for the one aspect that was present in it's founding days, present in the Golden Era, the Monday Night Wars, Attitude Era, Ruthless Agression Era, PG Era and will be present the much anticipated Groucho Marx Revival Era;

Storytelling. It's an aspect that is never overlooked, but I feel it is one not given near enough credit. It is present when we are entertained by a fantastic standalone match, but often it is a well told feud that carries into a match.

Much of what I read on this forum bothers me, because it subscribes to recycled ideas. I'd like to read them, but inevitably I glance through many posts, because most posts regard to some rehash of an angle, a heel-or-face turn or return to form of a previous era, and those just piss me off. Before I continue my stream of thought, let my just drop my rant on the above, tired IWC-based ideas.

-The nWo is gone. DX is gone. The Nation of Domination is done. Strike Force is done. Those stable/stories were great, but now they're done. Don't bring them back. Make new, well thought out entertaining ones.
-The Attitude era is gone, but the Attitude era is only a context for stories. The Attitude era was a context for stories to live in, just as a Zombie Apocalypse is a context for the stories of Walking Dead to live in. The Attitude Era is one of many infinite contexts in which a story can inhabit, and despite the commonplace bitching and moaning, you can create a wonderful, compelling story in the PG era.
-OMG guyz, turn Cena heels. Yeah, I agree. That could make a great story, if told right. Do you know what else would be great? A babyface John Cena defending the honor of WWE against an antihero threatening to take the WWE championship hostage... oh wait. While I fully admit creative has done little in making John Cena an interesting character, turning him heel is not the only option to making him interesting! Fuck!

I do get angry when I come on these forums (which is more often then my post count would suggest) and see fans complain about things like ratings. Perhaps I'm being too defensive of the product, but fuck, do you people own stock in WWE or TNA? I understanding wanting a genre to survive, but fans complaining about ratings doesn't resemble anything close to entertainment

I may be arguing a point, but all I want to do is share why I love wrestling. I am a writer (of fiction, and not of stream of thought, as may have been demonstrated) and I believe I found my love of storytelling through professional wrestling. I believe that we die hard fans are expendable at times, but I don't think that the genre should appeal to a lowest common denominator of cheap laughs and celebrity cameos. I believe that wrestling, in WWE, TNA, ROH and every other incarnation is can tell stories that are Better Than That.

I love wrestling for it's storytelling. Why do you? ]]> General Wrestling Discussion Thrown http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256771 Mid-reign face/heel turns? http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256765&goto=newpost Wed, 19 Jun 2013 01:28:39 GMT So just a quick bit of background on me, I'm not a wrestling loyalist. I started watching as a little kid during the NWO run, tuned out near the end of the attitude era, missed Evolution and Brock Lesnars first run and all that, then started watching again sometime during Rated RKO and the Spirit Squad runs. I also loosely started following TNA shortly before Christians departure. Needless to say, I don't consider myself all that well-versed on the history of pro wrestling.

Having said that, CM Punks heel-turn in the middle of his long WWE Championship reign was new and unique to me. It's usually the gain or loss of a title that leads to the turn.

So my simple and basic question is, what other examples of mid championship reign face/heel turns are there? And which is your favorite? ]]> General Wrestling Discussion punchline http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256765 What constitutes a face turn? http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256601&goto=newpost Mon, 17 Jun 2013 15:42:01 GMT On the heels of the "double turn" that occured with Dolph and Alberto, I was thinking about the situation and it has me wondering: What exactly constitutes a face turn?

Is getting repeatedly kicked in the head enough of a catalyst for a face turn? Is "becoming a victim" all that it takes in terms of story? Are all the bad things that a heel did suddenly forgotten and never mentioned? Is there no pennance or atonement? Is just booking a guy to wrestle other heels enough to make him a "face"?

How is it supposed to work with AJ, who recently did one of the meanest things ever (kayfabe) to Kaitlyn? Is she "face" by association now? Or will she drop Ziggler now because he lost the gold and she's the champ and he's not good enough for her?

What do you all think? I feel the WWE doesn't put enough work into face turns. Most of the time, there's no difference in character between a face and a heel after they've turned. They're just facing different opponents. ]]> General Wrestling Discussion Wrestlefan27 http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256601 Why Jeff Hardy, and not Randy Orton? http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256349&goto=newpost Thu, 13 Jun 2013 23:08:36 GMT I was reading PWTorch on Tuesday, where they have a daily "Ask The Editor" feature. The following question regarding Randy Orton was asked:

Quote:
"Can you envision him(Randy Orton) ever being propelled back to the main event status he had in '07-'11, when he was arguably even higher on the pecking order than John Cena for a short while?"
PWTorch contributor Greg Parks gave the following response:

Quote:
What's holding Orton back, and has been for some time, is the two strikes he has in the Wellness Policy. It would be difficult for WWE to invest significant main event time in him at this point given he's one strike away from termination. He could get a cup of coffee as a title challenger if the roster depth on top gets too weak, but I don't know that he'll ever get a sustained, multi-year main event push again.
I want to take this one step further, and look at the case of Jeff Hardy. Hardy, like Randy Orton, had two strikes against him on the Wellness policy. Yet when he returned from his second violation, he won the IC Title fairly quickly, then won the WWE Title a year later, and two World Heavyweight Championships shortly after. Granted, none of the reigns were long, but Jeff Hardy was consistently in a championship, then main event picture from the time he returned to the time he departed the company.

I then look at Randy Orton, who was suspended approximately a year ago, and he hasn't had a sniff of the championship picture since. He's been in some decent feuds, but he's essentially been used to elevate talent, such as the Shield at Wrestlemania, or in grudge matches, such as with Dolph Ziggler at Night of Champions, Alberto Del Rio at Hell In A Cell, and Big Show at Extreme Rules.

So it seems Parks is right. And it's not as if Orton isn't popular, the reactions he receives from the crowd currently seem third only to Daniel Bryan and John Cena. His only "shot" at getting a championship match was a 6 man Elimination Chamber, where he was pinned by Jack Swagger. I don't know what the future holds for Randy Orton, and he does have a Tag Titles match Sunday, but other then that? He seems far away from a World or WWE Title picture, where he was firmly entrenched for 5 years from 2007-2011.

Jeff Hardy and Randy Orton had alot in common. Both had two strikes on the Wellness Policy, and both were/are insanely over. Yet Jeff Hardy, once re-instated, was given chance after chance, and even won a title and main-evented Summerslam when it was known he was on his way out the door. I don't know what Orton's attitude has been like since he returned, but his push has been stalled entirely in the mid-card, often wrestling matches on Raw or PPV with no implications or long-term storyline ramifications.

So my questions are this:

What made Jeff Hardy different from Randy Orton? Why did he receive a mega-push, featured matches, and 3 World Titles, while Randy Orton has been firmly entrenched in the upper-midcard?

If you were booking in WWE, would you take the chance on Randy Orton as a top guy again? Would you have done so with Jeff Hardy?

Any other thoughts or discussion on this are welcome. ]]> General Wrestling Discussion Lucic Seguin Neely 80 http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256349 Wrestling Journalism (Constructive Criticism Required) http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256325&goto=newpost Thu, 13 Jun 2013 07:58:05 GMT Firstly,

To the admins, if I have posted this in the wrong place, I whole heartedly apologise, I just didn't know where to post it.

At the tender age of 28, I am still one of those people that doesn't really know what to do with my life. The only thing I have ever really taken an interest in is pro wrestling. This in itself limits you to very few jobs. I am also a qualified journalist, but haven't written anything in a long while. So, here I am today, throwing myself at the mercy of thr IWC!

I have written an article that I would to ask the honest opinion of the forum over, and if it is worth me continuing on to try and get into wrestling journalism. Any and all comments will be greatly appreciated:

THE STATE OF PRO WRESTLING: BY SCOTT HAMMOND

As a wrestling fan for the better part of 24 years, I have seen my fair share, as have many. When I was a kid I remember having a VHS of a WCW Saturday night and the only thing I remember was Barry Windham and Arn Anderson tagging in a match against a team I cannot remember.

I figured that as a fan, as so many others have before me, that I would give my state of pro wrestling's top two address, and look for what is missing:

I guess there is only one place to start, and that is the WWE. People have spent years complaining that wrestling is in a 'down' period in terms of the amount of people who watch the product. This is backed up by fact, absolutely, but that has nothing to do with the quality of the programming itself.

The WWE has built itself into a brand. Something that is self sustaining and people who hate on the company for not being a sole wrestling company, are kidding themselves. First and foremost, Vince McMahon is a business man. Sure, his main business is 'sports entertainment', but the company has transcended that tag now, and does all kinds. Movies, (See No Evil, Dead Man Down to name two) books, (anything autobiographical) hell, even American Football (the XFL...wait, did that happen?) have been brought under the WWE umbrella, so I guess in terms of making money, the last 7 years have been the most successful. But has the product been damaged by the wide spectrum of things going on within the company?

To a certain degree, going three hours for RAW every week was a big mistake for me. While it does help with the sponsors, and giving the lower card some TV time, it hasn't worked. The lower to mid-card seem to trade wins every other week, and because of that, nobody seems to be pushing through the glass ceiling where CM Punk and John Cena are probably quite lonely.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't even begin to try and 'tell' the WWE guys how to book, it must be a massively stressful job trying to write 5 hours of TV a week, but logic isn't being used on anything that isn't deemed worthy of the upper card. The reason that wrestling fans harp on about the Attitude Era is because every match, from the curtain jerker, to the main event had meaning. Emotional investment if you like. I'm a firm believer in when something has been done once, especially in the world of 'sports entertainment', it is exeptionally difficult to replicate it. Look at the formation of the nWo. Shocking, because Hogan had never turned heel. The formation of DX, a man who stepped out of the shadow of The Showstopper at just the right moment, brought in a fellow Kilq member from WCW, and had one of the hottest tag teams at the time join them whilst allowing Mick Foley and Terry Funk to make you look unstoppable.

CM Punk broke out from the pack in recent memory because he did something that is not the norm in the world of wrestling. He aired his grieviances, but in a way that would not just relate to the 'smart' fans who knew what he was talking about, but he made the effort to explain who the likes of John Laurinaitis was and his role within the company so that younger fans/parents would know who he was aiming his scorn at. He is an intellectual man who, in his own words, has an 'old school' mentality, which is where I think the WWE needs to go back to. There isn't one particular thing that has caused the decline in viewership over the years. It is a culmination of things. Everything that was done in the mid to late 90's hadn't been done before. Bringing Mike Tyson in as guest enforcer for a Wrestlemania main event was considered genius, even by McMahon's biggest rival at the time, Eric Bischoff. Does anyone remember Tyson coming back to 'guest host' RAW a few years back and teaming with DX again? I would make a guess that less than half of those who knew about the first appearence wouldn't have realised he came back for another. The WWE has been on the air weekly from 1993. They tout that that is longer than any other TV show, which it is. But could you imagine some of your favourite shows (LOST, Simpsons, American Dad) going weekly for twenty straight years? I loved LOST, because I knew it had a beginning a middle and an end. It may not be financially viable, but I am a big advocate of taking a couple of months off after Wrestlemania. The positives massively outweigh the negatives. Of course, in terms of money it makes very little sense. My opinion will not affect those in power in the WWE, but it would be food for thought. The WWE has the platform to continue to draw money, and make good TV, which they do more regularly than not. The rise of the Curtis Axel's, Wyatt Family and, of course, The Shield make for excited viewing for the long term. But it is how these 'superstars' will get over that is the really interesting question. Time will no doubt, tell.

Now, if I was Mark Madden, this is where I would get hot under the collar and go for Hogan's throat. Yes I now move onto TNA. I was brought up by my dad to believe that if something is done well, and you take enjoyment out of it, then it doesn't matter if it is considered the best, and in a lot of eyes TNA is not considered the 'best'.

The first thing that people fail to realise about TNA is that people have been saying that the company would go under for the last 10 years. It is STILL going strong, and even though the numbers are not great, the promotion does put on some entertaining stuff. Their biggest problems are two fold. Firstly, the whole 'stealing talent' and having them appear the next night thing has been done, by Eric Bischoff. Secondly, no compete clauses prevent that from happening anymore. WCW got the spark from that very thing by using the money from Turner to attract the Outsiders. When TNA signed the Outsiders, they were both a lot older, a lot of their schtick was old, and Scott Hall no-showed a PPV.

The one thing, for a long time that TNA failed to do was capitalise on their own stars. At one point, Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Christopher Daniels, Abyss and Beer Money/Motor City Machine Guns were all clamouring for places on TV, all of which were superb talents. Big name signings like Kurt Angle (who ended Joe's 'streak' in TNA) and Christian prevented the home grown talent from being on TV as much as they should have been. During the Beer Money/Motor City Machine Guns best of five series, by the time I got to the fifth match, I was utterly exausted. Those four men put on four of the BEST tag team matches that I have EVER seen. Ever. The one match that was on Impact was only on mid-show. They could have made that match the main attraction of the night. They could have had their established stars putting over the greatness of both teams. Instead the end of the show was reserved for Hulk Hogan and ECW 2.0.

More recently however, they have made major moves away from that, and, in my opinion, have the greatest heel in professional wrestling as their world champion. Contrary to what some believe, I quite like the Aces & Eights. I think that they are a clever group. Their biggest issue will be pushing characters from inside the group. They appear to be currently suffering from Nexus syndrome in the sense that most of the focus is on Bully Ray. Rightfully so as he is the main heel in the promotion, but it will be more interesting to see how some of the members survive once the group disbands. The best thing that they can do for the likes of DOC and Knux, is when they are ready to disband the group, that they give these two a platform to advance their characters. Evolution did this much in the same way and made two main eventers in the process.

TNA's main issue is promotion of the product. With wrestling not attracting the crowds/audience of the late 90s, as there are not as many watching wrestling on the whole, the amount of people tuning into the 'second' biggest promotion in the US is also going to be below average. WCW kicked into gear when the ratings were averaging in the 5.0's. The WWE averages a 3.0 weekly now, so I guess you have to take that into account.

Hogan hasn't particularly helped TNA grow but he certainly hasn't hindered the product. If he had, people would have a legitimate reason to be unhappy. The knockout division has become a shining beacon of hope for TNA to get out of the large shadow that the WWE has over other promotions. The stories are well driven, and the wrestling is...well on par with some of the best stuff that TNA has to offer, and in some aspects, better than some WWE matches. There is also the point to be made that maybe, just maybe, there is an untapped market in the US for mainstream womens wrestling that TNA could try and impact on.

Some people say that wrestling runs in cycles. I don't agree. Each era is different and brings something different. Its not always good, but every era has its break out stars. John Cena has been on top a lot longer than most would like, but in truth, other than CM Punk, that doesn't really look like changing any time soon. TNA continue to produce solid stories but sometimes completely fail to follow up on starting something (ala Matt Morgan). During the Monday Night Wars, Vince McMahon had no interest in the weekly ratings, he was just focussed on putting on good TV. Looking back, its ironic now...don't you think? ]]> General Wrestling Discussion Low_Ki http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256325 <![CDATA[Why is it that people still today dont "get" wrestling?]]> http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256295&goto=newpost Wed, 12 Jun 2013 14:09:41 GMT I have been a wrestling fan for 26 years. At 33 years old, I am not as religious as I used to be for either lack of time or for it or not being as... I have been a wrestling fan for 26 years.

At 33 years old, I am not as religious as I used to be for either lack of time or for it or not being as good in the last several years. I still keep up with new dvd releases (Manias, dvds containing footage from the 1990's to early 2000's) And I still occasionally pop in an old wcw tape and remember the good old days.

At work, most people are a fan of sports, the other half fan of movies and popular tv shows. If I was to mention at work or in a circle of people that Im a wrestling fan, I would be looked at like I have a second head coming out of my shoulder. Still today, in 2013, people dont get or understand wrestling. Many look down on wrestling and those who watch it. Its not that I am ashamed that Im wrestling fan, the contrary, but people would start asking the age old questions "isnt that fake?" 'isnt that scripted?" I am tired of explaining these things to people.

I have given this some thought.

I think its because up until the early 1990's wrestling was sold and presented as something that was real. Not until mid 90's on, when shoot interviews and tv specials began, wrestlers and big name wrestlers started to admit the whole thing is staged and scripted. People felt lied to, society saw this as something that was sold to them as real, to just discover it was staged all along. People lost respect for it.

Its been known since day one that movies have been fake from the very beginning. This wasn't the case with wrestling. ]]> General Wrestling Discussion President Evil http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256295 Bring Back Kayfabe? http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256227&goto=newpost Mon, 10 Jun 2013 22:16:59 GMT I've been listening to the Steve Austin Podcast. His interviews with Chael Sonnen (who is a huge fan and actually attended the Power Plant in 1998 and was invited back, but by the time he finished college, WCW had closed shop) and Jim Ross got me thinking about things that could be done to help wrestler's performance.

JR and Austin were talking about the art of the promo. JR talked about believability and how every time Austin was on the mic, he believed that he was listening to Stone Cold and he believed in the issue he was talking about, which in turn made JR's job so much easier, as JR approached announcing like it was a shoot and these were real wrestlers with real issues. Austin talked about his preparation prior to a show and how from the drive to the show, to walking in the arena, he was getting into a zone, getting into character, and that is what allowed his transformation. So while they mentioned the "amplifying yourself" philosophy, what they were essentially advocating is a form of method acting.

Chael and Austin were also talking about the art of the promo. Sonnen explained that a lot of his stuff is shtick and that he was good at delivering soundbites or clever attacks, but that deep down, he always feels it. Sonnen said he truly does not like Anderson Silva and that they would never be friends. So it's easy when he's facing somebody who rubbed him the wrong way, but when he was matched up with Brian Stann, he was at a loss. Sonnen knew Dana and the media were expecting his usual bombast and he just didn't have it. He liked and admired Stann so much that he just couldn't tap into his emotion, so he actually called Austin for advice. Steve listened to Chael and his advice was if you don't feel that natural dislike then don't fake it, instead put him over. Tell the media he's the greatest and hard as nails. Chael mentioned that Austin's angle with Mick Foley was an inspiration. Austin was still Stone Cold and was still going to kick some ass, but when it was time to talk about Foley, Austin put him over.

What I took away from the Austin/Chael interview was that there is more than one way to sell a match/fight. It can be sold as a deeply personal issue, filled with hatred, resentment, and emotion and the participants are hell bent on putting hurt on each other or it can be about facing an opponent who is a tough, dangerous, skilled SOB and the participants are going to go at it like crazed dogs and somebody is getting hurt in the process. But no matter what, you have to convince yourself that you believe what you're saying.

I think emotion is the key element in wrestling and the young guys in wrestling today just don't have it like those who came before them and I don't think it's their fault. Young guys just don't get the time to develop, they don't get to work with veteran guys who could help that development, and they're not allowed to develop a character within their own mind as they now have writers handing them a script. Young guys today are expected to be excellent wrestlers and excellent actors, without the training and experience to be either.

But wrestling in 2013 is what it is. By that I mean the industry is a monopoly with one company as the driving force with a full time schedule, one much smaller company swimming in their wake with a little more than part-time schedule, and then everybody else part-time or less. There just aren't enough places for a young wrestler to go and learn with full time on the job training like the territories provided and the clock is not going to be turned backwards to recreate what made wrestling work so well in yesteryear.

But there is something I do believe WWE, TNA or any other company could do to turn back the clock in another way that I believe might just help wrestlers become better performers and make the product better. Now I know there will be many who think this is antiquated thinking or would make no difference and you may be right, but at least hear me out before dismissing the idea.

I would bring back Kayfabe...to a degree.

Back in the day, heels and babyfaces were kept separate. They did not travel together, they did not dress together, they did not room in hotels together, and they did not socialize in public together. And I firmly believe this practice helped wrestlers who were not natural actors become much better performers. And this is the practice I would bring back to wrestling.

Now I'm not saying wrestling needs to try and convince the public that wrestling is real. In fact whenever I hear old-timers claim the audience thought wrestling was a shoot or weren't sure or thought the other matches were fake but believed his were real...well I tend to roll my eyes. In my opinion, wrestlers were magicians. Only kids and the feeble-minded think David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear...everybody else knew it was a cool trick and appreciated it all the same. Old school wrestling was no different. Fans suspended their disbelief and got into the show, but the vast majority knew it was all a big trick or work, they just didn't know how it was done. Well, today all the trade secrets are out, but I don't think that's a big problem as millions of fans are still looking to be entertained.

Just imagine WWE hires you to be a wrestler and pairs you with CM Punk. Imagine how much harder it would be to go out in front of the cameras and the crowd and try to pretend that you hate Punk and plan to destroy him next Sunday if you just rode with him to the show, were backstage eating dinner, talking about the Cubs prospects for this season, then going back to the hotel to a shared room. Now the most talented guys can turn it on like a switch and pull this off. But if you're a young guy and everything is new to you, wouldn't you find it easier to get into character and really create the emotion of hatred for Punk if you rode to the show with other guys whose job it could be to also hate Punk, and dressed in a different locker room, and ate catering in a different part of the building, and aside from getting together briefly to talk about the match, that is the only time you interact with Punk?

Back in the day, Vince used to work the boys and create real tension that he hoped would show up on TV, obviously Bret and Shawn would be exhibit A for how Vince used to rile guys up against each other. Now that blew up right in his face, but I still think the idea behind it is smart, there's just a professional way to do it.

So my proposal would be to bring back kayfabe. The babyfaces travel with the babyfaces, the heels travel with the heels. There are two locker rooms, one for heels and one for babyfaces. Catering gets separated for heels and babyfaces. Basically aside from discussing their match, PR stuff, media interviews, every other moment that wrestlers are at work (when they travel, at the arena, at the bar, at the hotel, etc) they observe kayfabe.

I don't care if a heel/face are best friends or like to ride together or share rooms. Wrestling is their job and they should treat it as such, so if observing kayfabe can help bring out a better performance with more natural emotion, then I can't think of a single reason not to make it standard practice...but I'm open to dissenting opinion. ]]> General Wrestling Discussion STFU Donnie http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256227 Who is Spencer Rayne? http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256185&goto=newpost Sun, 09 Jun 2013 20:36:09 GMT I'm not sure if he has a big follow or what but i've been hearing good things about this man. From what I know, he has just started on the UK independent sence and from sources, he has impressive mic skills and good heel presence.

Have you heard of him? ]]> General Wrestling Discussion TJWWE http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256185 NXT vs OVW http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256015&goto=newpost Thu, 06 Jun 2013 05:27:17 GMT Okay now, this is a tough one in my book. OVW has been training stars for years. Cena, Orton, Batista, Lesner, I could go on for hours. TNA's smartest decision ever was to get OVW to help them with their development of future stars. NXT was a way for WWE to showcase new talent they were bringing up from Florida Championship Wrestling which they eventually left also. But here recently NXT has been providing WWE with a ton of talent that actually takes up at least 65% of their roster. So the question is which one is the most dominant minor league at the moment? ]]> General Wrestling Discussion The Golden Boy http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=256015 Since When Do Wrestling Columnists Think They Can Be Babyface or Heel? http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=255883&goto=newpost Tue, 04 Jun 2013 08:56:58 GMT Yes, this is a criticism of Chair Shot Reality, that poor excuse of a show on the main website. But it's not a 'me being an asshole' thread. It's an observation.

See, I've discovered that WZ personalities such as Justin Labar, Mark Madden, and Brian Gulish attempt to give off the impression that they're playing 'characters' and they're only trying to work the fans and spark a reaction from the IWC. Labar seems to be the 'know-it-all who doesn't really know much of anything' and he seems to embrace that moniker. He even has t-shirts about giving us a 'Reality Check'. Now, I don't want to go off on a tangent here, but to be able to give us a reality check, you need to be in touch with reality itself.

The reason Labar draws the ire of myself and others is mainly due to the fact that he acts like he's been there and done that and knows what's best for the WWE because companies are dumb enough to pay him to give those opinions. I don't know the guy personally, but he's giving off this massive tool kind of vibe when it comes to discussing wrestling or just how he acts in real life. He tweets celebrities and tells them he's 'in the entertainment business'. That's his deal and I'm not going to attack someone who isn't around to defend himself, but it's laughable.

Mark Madden at least has some sort of credibility, having worked for WCW during its dying days. That being said, this does not make him an expert by any means. It's like asking the secretary at Apple to rebuild an iPod from scratch. Madden may have some cool behind the scenes stories, but he's such a Vince Russo mark, that even Russo would tell him to pipe down. He also plays this 'heel' role as if he's a wrestling talent. I don't get it. I get trying to promote discussion, but why promote an attitude that's abrasive and seemingly bitter at the life he's been dealt?

And finally Brian Gulish. Don't know the guy from Adam, but apparently he's starting to draw the ire of fans on the internet by being a condescending jerk, only for Labar to try to back him up and claim that Gulish is playing a 'character'. What is this character? And what's the point of doing it if it's not entertaining?

My question here is this - do you like it when personalities play a 'character' or try to act like they're in the wrestling business by being a protagonist or antagonist even if they aren't those people in real life? Do any of you find this kind of thing entertaining or does it make you dumbfounded that anyone would give it the time of day? ]]> General Wrestling Discussion Lariat of Doom http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=255883 Is Fan Impatience Ruining Wrestling? http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=255817&goto=newpost Mon, 03 Jun 2013 17:55:48 GMT As we enter week 3 of the Curtis Axel Experiment, the one thing I've been taken by is the polarizing nature of opinion on the first 2 weeks. Many are willing to reserve judgment until the initial story is complete, while others have determined that Axel has been buried and is already DOA. It's a battle of patience versus impatience.

I found this cool story in Ole Anderson's book that illustrates patient storytelling:

For those who don't know, Tommy Rich would become arguably the biggest star in wrestling in the early 80's thanks to Georgia Championship Wrestling and their reach on TBS. Tommy Rich was brought in by Jim Barnett with the idea that he could potentially be a star. Ole Anderson, as the booker, was in charge of the wrestling and he came up with the plan.

In week 1, Ole paired Rich with Abdullah the Butcher and he had Abby destroy him, treating him like a jobber. When the ref tried to help Tommy up, he shoved him away and as he slowly fought to get back to his feet, the crowd gave polite applause. Then Tommy cut an interview challenging Abby again, saying he wasn't a coward and that he couldn't go home and face his friends and family until he proved he was no quitter. Barnett found Ole backstage and accused him of burying Rich, suggesting they mine as well fire him, because he was finished. Ole, ever the politician, told Barnett to shut up and that he didn't know what he was talking about.

In week 2, Ole paired Abby with Rich again and again Abby destroyed him, only this time Abby had to go a little longer and be a little more vicious to finish the job. After the bell, Abby continued the beating and as he was ready to walk out, Tommy grabbed his leg, suggesting the fight wasn't done. So Abby commenced to beating him some more. And once again, Tommy struggled along the ropes to get to his feet and walk out of the ring. This time the fans applause were a little louder. Again, Barnett was up in arms backstage, saying Rich should be gone and they were wasting valuable time building up somebody who wasn't dead...and again Ole called him stupid.

In week 3, Tommy goes on TV to challenge Abby again. At this point Abby's manager, Rock Hunter comes out and refuses the match, saying Tommy is crazy and he's lucky Abby didn't cripple or kill him. Just then, the kayfabe promoter comes out and says Abby signed a blank contract and he would face Tommy the next week. Rock said fine, but he and Abby won't be held responsible for what happens. In the match, Tommy takes a good beating and then becomes Wildfire and he and Abby go back and forth until Rock pulled Abby out and Rich won by count out.

Ole then had Abby and Rock refuse a rematch and after a few weeks of teasing, Abby was forced to face Rich and Tommy got the big win. After that he was a made guy, becoming a huge star, all thanks to a patiently crafted story that took roughly a month and a half to complete.

If Ole had listened to the impatient Barnett, Tommy would never have seen week 2 or 3 and he would never have become a huge star or NWA champ or have the match that would inspire Hell in a Cell. And I can't help but think if WWE took an NXT guy and did the same thing with Mark Henry in Abby's role, the IWC would have Barnett's reaction, claiming the NXT guy had been buried after the very first week. To often fans either ignore the story being told or lack the patience to give it time to develop, reserving judgment until the final chapter is complete. Its this same shortsightedness and impatience that is causing so many to deride Axel's first two weeks.

And it's because of this collective rush to judgment that WWE and TNA are discouraged from taking any amount of time to tell a story. In today's world, creative could come up with a brilliant story that is meant to be told through chapters, week to week...but then the fans decide that the first chapter is the whole story and just dump all over it. It's like turning on Die Hard and deciding it sucks after 15 minutes because all it's about is some jet lagged cop trying to win back his old lady at an office Christmas party.

So who's to blame for modern attention deficit disorder wrestling. The impatient fans or creative whose task is to create stories that appeal to fans who demand everything right here and right now? ]]> General Wrestling Discussion STFU Donnie http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=255817 Who are the best or worst free agent signings in wrestling history? http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=255793&goto=newpost Mon, 03 Jun 2013 00:50:26 GMT When you look at the history of wrestling their are guys who are brought up by the system like they are in professional sports and their are free... When you look at the history of wrestling their are guys who are brought up by the system like they are in professional sports and their are free agent signings that teams/ companies hope will improve their product. Hulk hogan, most of the NWO, Bret hart, piper, and warrior were all brought in by WCW. While some worked out well others flopped. Undertaker, stone cold Steve Austin, diesel, mick foley, vader, Goldberg, HHH, and Ric flair were guys the wwe brought in to the company.

In my opinion the best free agent signing by either company was stone cold Steve Austin. Revolutionized wrestling and the wwe. I'm no mark for the man, but you need to pay him his dues. He went from mid carder in WCW to one of greats in wwe history.

The worst signing in my opinion is my favorite wrestler of all time Bret the hitman hart. WCW dropped the ball with him big time. He went from top guy in wwe to a mid carder in WCW. There weren't any high profile matches we all talk about today from his WCW days. He had the most promise and yet Failed big time.

So who do you guys believe are the best and worst signings in wrestling history? ]]> General Wrestling Discussion Matt7584 http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=255793 WCW or ECW: which one do you miss the most? http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=255533&goto=newpost Wed, 29 May 2013 15:49:09 GMT So as the title said, Which one do you miss the most WCW or ECW. its been 12 years now since both companys closed (not counting the WWE version of... So as the title said, Which one do you miss the most WCW or ECW. its been 12 years now since both companys closed (not counting the WWE version of ECW) and I was woundering which company everyone missed the most.

For me it would have to be ECW. There Hardcore style of Wrestling and unique characters were far different then anything else around at the time and while we still have companys like CZW they are by no means as good as what ECW was. ]]> General Wrestling Discussion MINISTRYrising http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=255533 Do Guys Still know How To Work A Crowd? http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=255433&goto=newpost Sun, 26 May 2013 23:29:59 GMT I picked up Ole Anderson's book the other week and found this interesting passage regarding his time at The Power Plant:

"All the prospective wannabees were standing around, listening. I called Erik Watts into the ring and we locked up. I don't remember the sequence, but we wound up against the ropes. I backed up, looked at Erik and said, 'Dammit Erik. I told you before. Don't do that again, all right? We're trying to show these guys how to make it look real.'

We went back to the center of the ring and locked up. We tugged around and I got him against the ropes again. I raised my voice and said, 'Jesus, Erik! Are you f***ing deaf or what? Can't you understand what I'm trying to tell you?' He gave me a strange, somewhat irritated look, so I slapped him on the face. 'Dammit get you act together or I'll kick your ass for real.'

We began again. Before too long, I hit him with a knee. I got him on the ground, grabbed him by the hair, and started ripping his face apart. The whole time, I was swearing at him. 'You stupid son of a bitch! How many times do I have to tell you?' Then I stopped right in the middle of my tirade and looked over at the kids outside the ring. Their eyes were as big as saucers. Their mouths were hanging open. I looked over at them and said, 'Well, did you buy it?'

Erik started laughing as he stood up. As understanding sank in, every one of those guys let out a long breath. 'Do you see?' I asked, as the tension slowly left the room. My whole point was, how many guys did I convince that it was a shoot when I was working with Erik?

The answer?

All of them"


This got me thinking about how I can watch stuff from the 80's and 90's (although this is when the change began) and see nothing but guys who understood that wrestling at it's very core was a simulated fight...yet when I watch today, all the wrestlers just seem to be doing a choreographed exhibition and few are those who can work the crowd into suspending their disbelief.

Wrestling is no different than any other performance art, and in the ring it just seems like guys today don't understand the nuance of the performance that guys of yesteryear understood intrinsically. Wrestling isn't about a move set or high spots. It's about anger, rage, fear, jealousy, and any other emotion you can think of.

So am I just an old 34 year old, yelling at the kids to stay off my lawn, while muttering to myself that "back in the day, guys knew how to wrestle"...or do you think the art of working and manipulating a crowd is dead and what we are left with is more of an sterilized athletic exhibition as opposed to the dramatic simulated fight of days past? ]]> General Wrestling Discussion STFU Donnie http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=255433 Why do people enjoy promos so much? http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=255389&goto=newpost Sat, 25 May 2013 23:50:08 GMT This is pro wrestling, not debate club.

I prefer storylines to be told in the ring, not so much on the microphone. Don't get me wrong, it helps when a guy can explain his thoughts or actions, but I find 10 minute segments with guys just talking each other down pointless. ]]> General Wrestling Discussion zephyrs http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=255389