Why can't John Cena wrestle like he did in 2003?

[matty256]

I just got done watching the 2003 No Mercy DVD, which had on it John Cena vs Kurt Angle, and it was actually one of the better Cena matches i've seen. Best match on the card def. John Cena was actaully cheered more then he his today by adult male fans. At one point of the match you could hear the kids and women chanting "lets go Angle" and the males chanting "lets go Cena" which I have never heard. But anyways it was a nice back and forth match that kept the crowd entertained. Plus Cena actually applied a headlock. Also something i've never seen lol. He also did a variety of other moves. Imo if we could see matches like this from Cena always, he wouldnt be hated like he is by a majority of male adult fans. But instead, we the same match, Cena getting his ass beat for 10-20 mins, with Cena only usually using a few shoulder blocks, a Protoplex, a Fisherman Supplex, Leg drop off the top, 5 knuckle shuffle, Attitude Adjustment, STF. and maybe a A throwback and thats it. It may be because he was a heel and heel's tend to dominate matches, but I think he could use different variety of moves in a match and still be a face instead of us having to watch the same match ending over and over agian. Thoughts?

[Y 2 Jake]

Wasn't Cena awful then? Yeah, he was. I also think Kurt might have been at his peak.

I think the real question is why don't WWE do something to make Cena have that aura again. The rap gimmick is dead. But I'm sure those creative minds at WWE could come up with somthing that would get the fans as into him as they were then.

[kaihorro]

simple answer is because vince won't lt him, ringwise hes doing minimal to get by but he oozes charisma so he doesn't really need to have a vast moveset because for what he lacks in the ring he makes up for character wise in my opinion

[The_Predator_Since_1993]

I think John Cena can wrestle like he did in 2003 but i dont think there is a need for him as he gets a reaction no matter what and i feel it depends on the opponent and the match as when John Cena wrestled Jack Swagger or when he has faced Shawn Michaels or Triple H and when he has even faced Randy Orton in the past.

I think when needed to John Cena will wrestle at the level he needs to.
But there is also the way he is meant to be portrayed and how Vince wants to portray him as the superman character who gets his ass kicked and then miraculously comes back to get the victory. So it really depends on how he wants the match to go. But when Cena does to the superman comeback its usually against heels so it would be interesting to see how he would wrestle as a heel.

[ap35hs3on7zso62s]

Wasn't Cena awful then? Yeah, he was.The rap gimmick is dead.


Ehh I wouldn't say the rap gimmick is dead, I don't even think Cena has a gimmick, he's DEFINITELY not the same now as he was in 2003, not even close, and Cena actually was really good back then, not phenominal, but a far more better wrestler. The thing is, he doesn't HAVE to do now what he did then because the WWE isn't about the wrestling, its not about the moves, and the kids will keep watching anyway, so Cena doesn't have to be impressive, infact, nobody really has to be impressive in the ring, in the WWE, its your charsima and talking skills, because really, what do kids know about wrestling? They can see an indy video of a guy doing the CRAZIEST moves, and they'll still say 'he sucks, cena is better'....don't believe me? go on youtube, lol....but yeah, he or anyone else doesn't even have to try :]

[ipswichicon80]

I just got done watching the 2003 No Mercy DVD, which had on it John Cena vs Kurt Angle, and it was actually one of the better Cena matches i've seen. Best match on the card def. John Cena was actaully cheered more then he his today by adult male fans. At one point of the match you could hear the kids and women chanting "lets go Angle" and the males chanting "lets go Cena" which I have never heard. But anyways it was a nice back and forth match that kept the crowd entertained. Plus Cena actually applied a headlock. Also something i've never seen lol. He also did a variety of other moves. Imo if we could see matches like this from Cena always, he wouldnt be hated like he is by a majority of male adult fans. But instead, we the same match, Cena getting his ass beat for 10-20 mins, with Cena only usually using a few shoulder blocks, a Protoplex, a Fisherman Supplex, Leg drop off the top, 5 knuckle shuffle, Attitude Adjustment, STF. and maybe a A throwback and thats it. It may be because he was a heel and heel's tend to dominate matches, but I think he could use different variety of moves in a match and still be a face instead of us having to watch the same match ending over and over agian. Thoughts?

I was watching survivor series from the same year(2003) and Cena was the first man out in the first match and he got the fabled "100%" reaction,the only diffrence was that he was cheered not booed out of the building. He was really over with the crowd, did a rap ripping on the other guys and was one of two survivers after he struck the big show with his chain. He was turned face (much like Steve Austin) because his edgy personna had got him over with the fans. Fast forward to today, what is his character? He stopped rapping on his way to the ring,his "from the streets image" was shown to be a sham when Edge broke into his middle class surburbion childhood home to beat up his dad, his moves no longer have edgy names due to the PG rating, basically he's been stripped of everything that got him over in the first place and it's been replaced with...well nothing. There is no reason to cheer for him because he doesn't stand for anything (the women and children crowd cheer for him because they're supposed to and because 9 times out of ten he wins). So for me the problem is more with his character(or lack of it) then his in ring style. That said all his matches are quite samey, he spends most of the match getting the crap kicked out of him and then mounts a superhuman comeback. WWE seem to like him in this style of match as it works for the family audience they're trying to attract. They could also try and teach him how to throw realistic punch's and how to apply his finishing hold better.

Just on another note,Cole said this week "there's only one place to see the big show and thats live on Raw" after watching his awful match with Kofi I have to say that sounds like a great advert for not watching Raw!

[image1986]

Honestly I watched another match that year with cena and undertaker and I don't really see where his move set was so different back then as it is now. The reason cena was popular was because he was entertaining on the mic and played a fake thug and at that time it seem cool. Cena charisma and look is the number one thing keep him alive as far as popularity. Once he stop rapping he came off very lame and repititive and turned into a boyscout. He still could have been edgey without the rap gimmack but instead he did a 360 and changed his charecter completely and that why he is booed.

[Paradox]

The most entertaining about Cena at that time was his gimmick. He was awful in the ring. Like Jake said that was when Angle was at his peak. If I remember the match right, kurt did make Cena look really well, but Cena is a lot better today then he was back in 03. His matches in the last year have been a lot better then that match. I think people right now are just getting annoyed at Cena, because he has become stale. If they change him up a bit I think the fans will be behind him. I'm not say heel turn even though I would love it, but something just to change it up.

[HBK-aholic]

I loved rapper Cena. I've gone from really liking him to being indifferent towards him. His gimmick then was hilarious. He was like The Rock or Jericho - cutting great promos on people we didn't like, or really loved and doing it in a way that made us laugh out loud. However, personal preference aside, ask yourself this. Was Cena drawing much then? He probably had a hand in things, however, his 'gimmick' of the last couple of years has been one of the most successful runs a wrestler has had in recent history. Why would the WWE take him back to a time he wasn't as successful?

[Slyfox696]

Because John Cena is the best wrestler in the world right now? Why would he want to regress?

Just because he does certain moves, doesn't make a good wrestler. His ability to put on a match now is far superior to what it was. And, as far as the "get beat down for 20 minutes and make a comeback", you obviously don't watch many Cena PPV matches.

[TJ INSANE 1992]

He is vinces child monkey. He cant be that aggressive anymore he hs to be same old every night cuz kids cheer him

[Franchize1990]

I Think the WWE is starting to let Cena do a little more technical wrestling at the moment in my opinion. If you watch many of his matches from this year, especially the one against the Miz from last Monday night, he has been executing a wider variety of moves. I even saw him do a headlock during that match. I think the reason Cena is hated by so many of the older males is because his matches are predictable and he is the role model to so many kids. It seems to me that when something is widely popular with children, it tends to turn off adults who used to like the product before it became mainstream.

[matty256]

Because John Cena is the best wrestler in the world right now? Why would he want to regress?

Just because he does certain moves, doesn't make a good wrestler. His ability to put on a match now is far superior to what it was. And, as far as the "get beat down for 20 minutes and make a comeback", you obviously don't watch many Cena PPV matches.



Please tell me you are being sarcastic? And I don't know, maybe so he could start getting cheered like faces are suppose to and not booed. But yeah your right I don't order PPV's anymore unless its Wrestlemania or Royal Rumble. Waste of money to buy any others these days if you ask me.

[Slyfox696]

Please tell me you are being sarcastic? And I don't know, maybe so he could start getting cheered like faces are suppose to and not booed. But yeah your right I don't order PPV's anymore unless its Wrestlemania or Royal Rumble. Waste of money to buy any others these days if you ask me.
What the fuck are you talking about? Very few people boo Cena anymore, and the only ones who do are the morons who don't understand anything about wrestling. I remember watching Raw, I believe it was, and there were a group of guys trying to get a Cena sucks chant going...there were like 5 guys...no one joined in.

The Cena hate is dead. The guy is mega over, and gets mega pops. And the guy is a fantastic wrestler, and if you'd watch some of his PPV matches, you'd know that.

Find his match vs. RVD at One Night Stand, his match against Umaga at Royal Rumble 07, and his match against Lashley at Great American Bash 07. Those are three different matches, with three very different opponents, in which Cena has to work three different styles, and three different types of matches.

And they are all fantastic.

[Champycakes]

Cena can't wrestle like he did in 2003 because he's playing an entirely different character. He's evolved from the thug/rapper gimmick into something totally different, which is a never-back-down role model. Now he works a different style of match, but that doesn't mean that his matches aren't good. The guy just isn't the same wrestler as he was in 2003. A wrestler's style will change as their gimmick changes, and as they evolve as a performer. That's just the nature of the business.

The notion that Cena is not a good wrestler because he has a somewhat limited moveset is silly and played out. He doesn't do that many moves because he doesn't need to. The babyface comeback routine has been around in wrestling for years, and yet nobody complains about it, except when it comes to Cena. And Slyfox is right, a lot of his most successful matches are very back-and-forth, instead of the beatdown and then comeback stuff. Example: his match with HBK in London.

[matty256]

Cena can't wrestle like he did in 2003 because he's playing an entirely different character. He's evolved from the thug/rapper gimmick into something totally different, which is a never-back-down role model. Now he works a different style of match, but that doesn't mean that his matches aren't good. The guy just isn't the same wrestler as he was in 2003. A wrestler's style will change as their gimmick changes, and as they evolve as a performer. That's just the nature of the business.

The notion that Cena is not a good wrestler because he has a somewhat limited moveset is silly and played out. He doesn't do that many moves because he doesn't need to. The babyface comeback routine has been around in wrestling for years, and yet nobody complains about it, except when it comes to Cena. And Slyfox is right, a lot of his most successful matches are very back-and-forth, instead of the beatdown and then comeback stuff. Example: his match with HBK in London.

I never said Cena hasnt had good matches since then, I've actually enjoyed his matches with HBK, Triple H, Edge and a few others, its just a majority of his matches are the same. And his match with HBK was only back and forth due to them both being face. Is there any matches that are back and forth that he's done with a heel lately? no

[Champycakes]

The IWC hating Cena means very little in the grand scheme of things. I like discussing things on wrestling forums and the like, but a lot of people don't understand...Vince and WWE don't really give a shit about what we think. The point that Slyfox was trying to get across is that the people buying the tickets, buying the merchandise, and making the WWE money are the ones cheering for Cena. As long as things stay that way, Cena deserves to be on top. I also strongly disagree with the notion that "technical wrestling" is the only type of good wrestling out there. No one's saying that Cena's a technical wrestler, that's not his style. He's a brawler, and he's a damn good one. That what he's good at, that's what he does.

[Saddler The Great]

What the fuck are you talking about? Very few people boo Cena anymore, and the only ones who do are the morons who don't understand anything about wrestling. I remember watching Raw, I believe it was, and there were a group of guys trying to get a Cena sucks chant going...there were like 5 guys...no one joined in.

The Cena hate is dead. The guy is mega over, and gets mega pops. And the guy is a fantastic wrestler, and if you'd watch some of his PPV matches, you'd know that.

Find his match vs. RVD at One Night Stand, his match against Umaga at Royal Rumble 07, and his match against Lashley at Great American Bash 07. Those are three different matches, with three very different opponents, in which Cena has to work three different styles, and three different types of matches.

And they are all fantastic.



What the fuck are you talking about? Very few people boo Cena anymore, and the only ones who do are the morons who don't understand anything about wrestling. I remember watching Raw, I believe it was, and there were a group of guys trying to get a Cena sucks chant going...there were like 5 guys...no one joined in.

The Cena hate is dead. The guy is mega over, and gets mega pops. And the guy is a fantastic wrestler, and if you'd watch some of his PPV matches, you'd know that. QUOTE]

Yea um....you seem to think that because more kids are attending live wwe events than the last 2-3 years (when cena was gettin booed out of buildings) that the hate is gone? If you look at the IWC people still hate cena...lol i dunno wtf you're talkin about. And quite frankly, the only reason why some people think Cena matches are sooo good is because there is the amount of specials and kickouts after specials overshadow the actual technical wrestling, where Cena is fuckin brutal...

[Slyfox696]

Yea um....you seem to think that because more kids are attending live wwe events than the last 2-3 years (when cena was gettin booed out of buildings) that the hate is gone?No, I seem to think that more PEOPLE are attending events in general (as in, attendance rates are higher), that the hate is gone.

If you look at the IWC people still hate cenaWho gives a fuck about the IWC? But, since you're mentioning it, the IWC doesn't have even HALF the hate it did back in 2006. Good try though.

And quite frankly, the only reason why some people think Cena matches are sooo good is because there is the amount of specials and kickouts after specials Not true. We think they're great because they build a great story, know how to get the crowd hot at just the right time, and then deliver a great climax. You know, the basic art of storytelling...the basic art of pro wrestling.

overshadow the actual technical wrestling, where Cena is fuckin brutal...LOL, how can Cena be brutal at it when he never does it? Cena's not a technical wrestler, and he doesn't work a technical style. And it would be completely stupid for him to work a technical style since that wouldn't fit his gimmick.

Do you know anything about wrestling?

[Black Snow]

I also pine for the 2003 John Cena who actually seemed motivated. Ever since Cena won the WWE title and was deemed to be the one true WWE God he just doesn't seem to care quite as much as he used to. In 2003 his offense was far more varied and he just genuinely seemed to give a shit about every aspect of his character. Today his moves are more limited and a bit sloppier.

I can't totally blame him. He's not the first guy in history to have his arsenal dramatically cut back by "WWE main event style." That would kill my motivation a bit too if I was in his shoes. I'm not saying all of his matches nowadays are bad. They're just very formulaic. It feels like when I watch a Cena match I can easily predict at least half a dozen moves ahead of time what he's going to do. He also follows the old Hulk Hogan formula too much of getting beaten down only to hit a huge comeback consisting mostly of signature moves into a pin. If that entertains people (and clearly it does) then more power to them. But for me personally I find it quite boring.

That's why I boo Cena. I don't boo him because the internet told me to. I boo him because I don't like his character and I'm not entertained by the majority of his matches. People can tell me that I'm following a crowd or that I don't know wrestling all they want. It just rolls off my back. Wrestlers are there for you to form your own opinion on. Half of the crowd loves Cena. The other half hates him. It's the same today as it was 4-5 years ago. Cena haters think the Cena lovers are wrong and vice versa. Nothing one side says is going to convince the other to change its opinion.

[Paradox]

Yea um....you seem to think that because more kids are attending live wwe events than the last 2-3 years (when cena was gettin booed out of buildings) that the hate is gone? If you look at the IWC people still hate cena...lol i dunno wtf you're talkin about. And quite frankly, the only reason why some people think Cena matches are sooo good is because there is the amount of specials and kickouts after specials overshadow the actual technical wrestling, where Cena is fuckin brutal...


Wow, really are you that ignorant? IWC hated Cena 3 years ago, why because he never lost the title. Now many have said they wish they could go back to Cena's long reigns instead having a different champ every month. Yes, kids go to live show, but percentage is still overwhelming for adults. Their was a thread on here not that long ago that was talking about how he was the best wrestler/entertainer in the business today. Get you facts right.

What the crap are you talking about special kickouts? Cena hasn't kicked out of a finisher in forever. Yeah, Cena might not be the best technical wrestler to ever step in the ring, but. He's not as brutal as you say. The guy has become gone to the top for one reason, because he's the best plain and simple. Name me one guy that is in the company right now that is better than Cena.

You want to talk about being not being technical? Look at the majority of Austin's matches. He wasn't that technical, he beat the crap out of his opponents and then gave them a stunner. He made it to where was because he was the best.

[matty256]

What the fuck are you talking about? Very few people boo Cena anymore, and the only ones who do are the morons who don't understand anything about wrestling. I remember watching Raw, I believe it was, and there were a group of guys trying to get a Cena sucks chant going...there were like 5 guys...no one joined in.

The Cena hate is dead. The guy is mega over, and gets mega pops. And the guy is a fantastic wrestler, and if you'd watch some of his PPV matches, you'd know that.

Find his match vs. RVD at One Night Stand, his match against Umaga at Royal Rumble 07, and his match against Lashley at Great American Bash 07. Those are three different matches, with three very different opponents, in which Cena has to work three different styles, and three different types of matches.

And they are all fantastic.

Your right, but Cena tends to have better matches with faces cause he actually gets in more moves and its back and forth the whole match, And also that match with Umaga was pretty good I agree with you there but it was a last man standing match.He also tends to have good gimmick matches. Earlier that month he had a regular one on one match with Umaga which was pretty horrible imo

[Paradox]

I also pine for the 2003 John Cena who actually seemed motivated

What? The guy doesn't seem motivated? The guy had surgery on his broken neck last year, and then was at the arena the next day. That's a little bit off.

Ever since Cena won the WWE title and was deemed to be the one true WWE God he just doesn't seem to care quite as much as he used to. In 2003 his offense was far more varied and he just genuinely seemed to give a shit about every aspect of his character. Today his moves are more limited and a bit sloppier.

Doesn't care? look what I said above. While his moves may be less, he's not sloppier. He's become solider then they were back when he first became champ.

I'm not saying all of his matches nowadays are bad. They're just very formulaic. It feels like when I watch a Cena match I can easily predict at least half a dozen moves ahead of time what he's going to do. He also follows the old Hulk Hogan formula too much of getting beaten down only to hit a huge comeback consisting mostly of signature moves into a pin. If that entertains people (and clearly it does) then more power to them. But for me personally I find it quite boring.

That's your opinion, I'm not going to bash you for that, but. I believe part of the reason his matches are becoming like that are the way that the man is booked. He's the face of the wwe, in creatives mind, if it ain't broken why fix it. I can't blame them for that, but i agree he can get predictable.

That's why I boo Cena. I don't boo him because the internet told me to. I boo him because I don't like his character and I'm not entertained by the majority of his matches.

Your opinion, I enjoy his matches that's why I cheer the man.

People can tell me that I'm following a crowd or that I don't know wrestling all they want. It just rolls off my back.

Good for you, your one of the few that don't get their panties in a wad when someone attacks you.

Wrestlers are there for you to form your own opinion on. Half of the crowd loves Cena. The other half hates him. It's the same today as it was 4-5 years ago.

I disagree, Cena isn't booed the way he was in 07. The man came out and was booed out of the building, he may get a few boos here and there, but not to the level it was then.

[Cheech 72]

What the fuck are you talking about? Very few people boo Cena anymore, and the only ones who do are the morons who don't understand anything about wrestling. I remember watching Raw, I believe it was, and there were a group of guys trying to get a Cena sucks chant going...there were like 5 guys...no one joined in.

The Cena hate is dead. The guy is mega over, and gets mega pops. And the guy is a fantastic wrestler, and if you'd watch some of his PPV matches, you'd know that.

Find his match vs. RVD at One Night Stand, his match against Umaga at Royal Rumble 07, and his match against Lashley at Great American Bash 07. Those are three different matches, with three very different opponents, in which Cena has to work three different styles, and three different types of matches.

And they are all fantastic.

Kiss your mother with that mouth kid? I'm not going to put down Cena and I do believe he is way over now then he used to be. But he wasn't mega over when he went up against RVD because they were in Philly ECW territory. Cena got nothing but boos, he tried to throw his shirt into the crowd several times and they threw the shirt back. He was the most hated man in the building. I think because he did the same 5 moves he always does and the Philly crowd chanted same old bullshit. You wont hear that of course in California or other states but I guarantee in Philly for the NOC Cena along with alot of wrestlers will get booed because they are fans wrestling and not entertainment.

[Slyfox696]

Kiss your mother with that mouth kid? I'm not going to put down Cena and I do believe he is way over now then he used to be. But he wasn't mega over when he went up against RVD because they were in Philly ECW territory. Cena got nothing but boos, he tried to throw his shirt into the crowd several times and they threw the shirt back. He was the most hated man in the building. I think because he did the same 5 moves he always does and the Philly crowd chanted same old bullshit. You wont hear that of course in California or other states but I guarantee in Philly for the NOC Cena along with alot of wrestlers will get booed because they are fans wrestling and not entertainment.LOL

John Cena worked those Philly fans like the fools they are. Cena was MEGA over in that place, just as a heel, and he worked the heel persona in that match perfectly. Taunting the crowd, not breaking holds, doing all his moves slowly and more deliberate...Cena made those Philly fans look like the idiots they are. My favorite part is when the fans are chanting "Same old shit"...while simultaneously cheering the guy who did the same things for the last ten years, regardless of whether he was heel or face.

Cena made those Philly fans look idiotic. He worked them like the fools they were.

[ipswichicon80]

LOL

John Cena worked those Philly fans like the fools they are. Cena was MEGA over in that place, just as a heel, and he worked the heel persona in that match perfectly. Taunting the crowd, not breaking holds, doing all his moves slowly and more deliberate...Cena made those Philly fans look like the idiots they are. My favorite part is when the fans are chanting "Same old shit"...while simultaneously cheering the guy who did the same things for the last ten years, regardless of whether he was heel or face.

Cena made those Philly fans look idiotic. He worked them like the fools they were.

Cena did work that match the perfect way, and not all wrestlers can cope in a atmosphere like that( Big Dave got booed in Philly during a match with the Big Slow,and sulked his way though the match). It remains one of my favourite Cena matches.

[Cheech 72]

LOL

John Cena worked those Philly fans like the fools they are. Cena was MEGA over in that place, just as a heel, and he worked the heel persona in that match perfectly. Taunting the crowd, not breaking holds, doing all his moves slowly and more deliberate...Cena made those Philly fans look like the idiots they are. My favorite part is when the fans are chanting "Same old shit"...while simultaneously cheering the guy who did the same things for the last ten years, regardless of whether he was heel or face.

Cena made those Philly fans look idiotic. He worked them like the fools they were.


Once Cena can accomplish any of these moves RVD has made famous, then come talk to me:

450 splash
Five Start Frog Splash
Hollwyood Star Press
Van Daminator
Van Terminator
Senton Bomb
Northern Lights Suplex
Moonsault
Monkey Flip
Roundhouse
Spinning Crescent
Corkscrew
Rolling Thunder
Springboard

Sounds like the fans were cheering more for these moves then the same old five knuckle shuffle, fireman's carry and STFU. Cena was a face by the way at One Night Stand and got booed terribly by being himself. It's my bad it wasn't Philly it was the Hammerstein ballroom in New York. Rey Mysterio was a face and he still got cheered, there were some boos for him being WWE but still they cheered because he was as good a wrestler as Sabu. Cena did his job by getting booed but being a top face in the company and still getting booed at regular WWE shows isn't anything to brag about.

[Paradox]

Once Cena can accomplish any of these moves RVD has made famous, then come talk to me:

450 splash
Five Start Frog Splash
Hollwyood Star Press
Van Daminator
Van Terminator
Senton Bomb
Northern Lights Suplex
Moonsault
Monkey Flip
Roundhouse
Spinning Crescent
Corkscrew
Rolling Thunder
Springboard

Sounds like the fans were cheering more for these moves then the same old five knuckle shuffle, fireman's carry and STFU. Cena was a face by the way at One Night Stand and got booed terribly by being himself. It's my bad it wasn't Philly it was the Hammerstein ballroom in New York. Rey Mysterio was a face and he still got cheered, there were some boos for him being WWE but still they cheered because he was as good a wrestler as Sabu. Cena did his job by getting booed but being a top face in the company and still getting booed at regular WWE shows isn't anything to brag about.

Did you even read sly's post? He said RVD HAS BEEN DOING THE SAME THING FOR 10 YEARS!!! Please tell me that you have heard the phrase, "Working the crowd" ? That's all Cena did, he took what the fans gave him and went with it. He started acting like a heel, sly is absolutely right Cena worked them.

WOW, Cena does not get booed on a regular bases. When was the last time that you watched raw? Yeah, the guy gets some boos here and there, every once in awhile, but not to the level you're saying.

Get some facts and learn to read the post before you go blindly hating on someone...

[Slyfox696]

Once Cena can accomplish any of these moves RVD has made famous, then come talk to me:

450 splash
Five Start Frog Splash
Hollwyood Star Press
Van Daminator
Van Terminator
Senton Bomb
Northern Lights Suplex
Moonsault
Monkey Flip
Roundhouse
Spinning Crescent
Corkscrew
Rolling Thunder
Springboard

Sounds like the fans were cheering more for these moves then the same old five knuckle shuffle, fireman's carry and STFU. Cena was a face by the way at One Night Stand and got booed terribly by being himself. It's my bad it wasn't Philly it was the Hammerstein ballroom in New York. Rey Mysterio was a face and he still got cheered, there were some boos for him being WWE but still they cheered because he was as good a wrestler as Sabu. Cena did his job by getting booed but being a top face in the company and still getting booed at regular WWE shows isn't anything to brag about.

LOL, you know nothing about wrestling. Being able to perform moves as absolutely dick to do with being a good wrestler. Any idiot can go out in his backyard and do a bunch of rolls and flips, it takes a good wrestler to make people care about.

But, I think this quote was great...

Sounds like the fans were cheering more for these movesSee, that's why Cena is better than RVD. People don't cheer for Cena because of moves, they cheer for him because they care about him. When people only care for you because of the moves you do, you're not a good wrestler.

When you have the first clue what you're talking about, then get back to me.

[Cheech 72]

I guess you guys know more about "wrestling" then I do since you've been watching for what a few years? Not any idiot can do flips and moonsaults, they need years of training for that. You're right you have to do more then moves.. but someone like RVD, Steamboat, Mr. Perfect, Ric Flair, Kurt Angle, and Bret Hart were cheered and booed for being great performers and because they can wrestle. Hogan only did a few moves like Cena but was cheered and booed also for being a great performer. We will just agree to disagree because Cena is your generation.. and the other guys are my generation. I will agree that Cena is a better performer and "wrestler" then RVD and other superstars on the roster but when it comes to pure athleticism my vote goes to someone along the lines of Angle, Bret Hart, Perfect, Shawn Michaels, and Ricky Steamboat. I know these wrestlers were before your time but they could perform and still give a good match besides just cut a promo. But I know nothing about "wrestling" even though I've been watching it before you were born and because you guys know everything.

[farfarawaysite]

LOL, you know nothing about wrestling. Being able to perform moves as absolutely dick to do with being a good wrestler. Any idiot can go out in his backyard and do a bunch of rolls and flips, it takes a good wrestler to make people care about.


I get your point - telling a story over moves. Valid in a small way but still a very flawed point.

Here's the thing. Moves=variety. Same old stuff=formula. Formula can be fun at times, many others it gets boring, bland and people get tired of it despite the fact that its "solid" (a word the IWC likes to butcher these days).

Being able to use a variety of moves in your different matches while still telling a story is a lost art in today's WWE.

Of course, wrestling is more than just moves. But like I said, moves still equal variety in the wrestler's stories. Finishers and sigs are necessary. But they are only part of the story.

And sadly, sometimes I think people who pretty much say "I don't give a damn as long as it tells a story" are part of the reason behind that. If the fans constantly defend the bland style - why will WWE change their main event style or encourage their midcard to turn it up a notch when they are trying to get in that higher spot where they will have to change their style anyway?

Personally, I want variety and a good story. That's the reason I've enjoyed the hell out of Mysterio and Jericho. They have done stuff against each other you have not seen out of them in months or even years. It's different, fresh, exciting. Both wonderful storytelling and a variety of moves, spots, whatever you want to call them.

The main event could be the same. Slower style perhaps but it could be a variety combined with storytelling. Sadly, we live in times when spots are considered evil by most fans. I remember back in the MNW era where Malenko, Benoit, etc would go out and tear things up with variety and a good story. People appreciated it. Now if someone uses more than 5 moves in a match - half the time it's a crap match because there's not enough story (even if there is one).

People did like Rey/Jericho so maybe there's hope.

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I guess you guys know more about "wrestling" then I do since you've been watching for what a few years? Not any idiot can do flips and moonsaults, they need years of training for that. You're right you have to do more then moves.. but someone like RVD, Steamboat, Mr. Perfect, Ric Flair, Kurt Angle, and Bret Hart were cheered and booed for being great performers and because they can wrestle. Hogan only did a few moves like Cena but was cheered and booed also for being a great performer. We will just agree to disagree because Cena is your generation.. and the other guys are my generation. I will agree that Cena is a better performer and "wrestler" then RVD and other superstars on the roster but when it comes to pure athleticism my vote goes to someone along the lines of Angle, Bret Hart, Perfect, Shawn Michaels, and Ricky Steamboat. I know these wrestlers were before your time but they could perform and still give a good match besides just cut a promo. But I know nothing about "wrestling" even though I've been watching it before you were born and because you guys know everything.

Pure athleticism has very little to do with wrestling. If that was the case, Shelton Benjamin and John Morrison would be two of the all-time greats. Hogan was a great technical wrestler but he stuck to a few moves because that is what the crowd wanted. I didn't know Hart, Perfect, and Michaels were before my time because I've been watching them since I was a kid.

I didn't know it could take years to do a moonsault either.

[Cheech 72]

I wasn't talking about you or the other people on this thread just slyfox. It doesn't take years to do a moonsault but not anyone can do it. I'm just saying wrestlers should have the best of both worlds, be able to cut a promo and put on a good match. Morrison and Benjamin are talented and aren't on the main event level yet. Cena is Huge right now and doesn't need to have fancy moves. I'm just a fan that appreciates the whole package of things, wrestling and mic skills.

[Christian Battlez]

I wasn't talking about you or the other people on this thread just slyfox.

So your just attacking Slyfox saying hes just a fan of this generation when you have no idea when he started watching wrestling or how old he is. You make yourself sound like this guy whos been watching wrestling since Verne Gagne and Lou Thesz were wrestling and you assume Sly has only been watching since 2005. How did you get this information do you know him personally?

It doesn't take years to do a moonsault but not anyone can do it. I'm just saying wrestlers should have the best of both worlds, be able to cut a promo and put on a good match.

Since when does knowing how to do a moonsault mean your a great wrestler? Undertaker can't do a moonsault and he can put on a great match. He tells a good story. Working a body part, trying to put your opponent away however possible, telling the story of a match. Thats how you make a good match. Amazing Red can do lots of flips and moves and he isn't half the wrestler Cena,Taker or RVD is. Plus last time I checked Cena cut way more passionate promos then laid back RVD.

Morrison and Benjamin are talented and aren't on the main event level yet. Cena is Huge right now and doesn't need to have fancy moves. I'm just a fan that appreciates the whole package of things, wrestling and mic skills.

Which John Cena has

[Cheech 72]

You can tell a great story in a match and not do moonsaults or frog splashes. I agree with you. Cena can put on a great match and be passionate in his promos. RVD was laid back cause WWE made him into the cool dude. Listen to his promo from the original one night stand you will see a different side of him. Im not putting down any generation who watches Cena or WWE I just believe in my own opinion someone like Ric Flair or Bret Hart brought alot more to the wrestling audience then Cena does now. I shouldn't of bashed sly but a younger WWE fan telling everyone they know nothing about wrestling is insulting to everyone.

[JKO]

While Cena is no Bret Hart or Kurt Angle, he is great at what he does. He gets the crowd interested in his matches. Little kids MTFO when he does the Five Knuckle Shuffle because they care about his matches. Sure you can go out there and flip, moonsault, suplex, and all that, but it takes a true entertainer to get someone to care about them. If professional wrestling was judged on pure technical ability, then ROH would be the number one company in the USA.

[matty256]

Well to those who thought I posted this thread to bash Cena, I'm sorry I didnt mean for you to misunderstand me. And I do think he is the biggest superstar of our era no doubt. And a great promo cutter. I loved his promo a week ago. Especially when he said "Your not a reality tv has been but a WWE never was" to The Miz. Awesome line. I just get so damn bored with his matches and on rare occasions enjoy them

[Slyfox696]

I guess you guys know more about "wrestling" then I do since you've been watching for what a few years?Around 1987 or 1988, I do believe.

Since you're so interested.

Not any idiot can do flips and moonsaultsBullshit. I see plenty of idiots do flips and moonsaults. Just do a Youtube search.

they need years of training for that.To do a backflip? So all those kids I saw jumping off the diving board when I was 10 had years of training?

Bullshit.

You're right you have to do more then moves.. but someone like RVD, Steamboat, Mr. Perfect, Ric Flair, Kurt Angle, and Bret Hart were cheered and booed for being great performers and because they can wrestle.And yet, you have NO idea what it means to "wrestle". How did RVD "wrestle"? Please tell me. Because he did a bunch of fake moves on a willing partner that look incredibly fake and laughable? That meant he could "wrestle"?

Do you understand anything about wrestling?

Hogan only did a few moves like Cena but was cheered and booed also for being a great performer. We will just agree to disagree because Cena is your generation.. and the other guys are my generation.LOL, my generation goes back to the same guys yours does. Guys like Hogan, Piper, Flair, Steamboat, Orndorff, Windham, Anderson, Morton, Rhodes, etc.

but when it comes to pure athleticism my vote goes to someone along the lines of Angle, Bret Hart, Perfect, Shawn Michaels, and Ricky Steamboat. LOL, Bret Hart wasn't a very good athlete at all. There have been hundreds of guys who were better athletes than Bret Hart.

But, very few of them were as good of a wrestler. And the reason is because athleticism has ZERO to do with being a good wrestler. Hell, compare someone like Stan Hansen to Shelton Benjamin. Benjamin is three times the athlete that Hansen is, but doesn't even deserve to be on the same card as someone like Hansen.

And, as far as being a "good athlete" goes, John Cena was an All-American lineman in college. So, I dare say he was a decent athlete as well.

I know these wrestlers were before your time but they could perform and still give a good match besides just cut a promo. But I know nothing about "wrestling" even though I've been watching it before you were born and because you guys know everything.Before my time, eh?

I get your point - telling a story over moves. Valid in a small way but still a very flawed point.

Here's the thing. Moves=variety. Same old stuff=formula. Formula can be fun at times, many others it gets boring, bland and people get tired of it despite the fact that its "solid" (a word the IWC likes to butcher these days).

Being able to use a variety of moves in your different matches while still telling a story is a lost art in today's WWE.

Of course, wrestling is more than just moves. But like I said, moves still equal variety in the wrestler's stories. Finishers and sigs are necessary. But they are only part of the story. Wrong, my good friend...actually, you're not my friend, and I don't know you. But you're still wrong.

Let's put it this way. Take John Grisham, Steven King, and J.R.R. Tolkien. Outside of maybe a word here or there, wouldn't you say they use the same vocabulary? Of course they do. But are their stories even close to being the same? Not in the least.

Moves are only important to further the story of the match. John Cena plays the character of the All-American brawler, the modern day John Wayne. He goes out, rough and tough, never gives up, and punches his way to victory. The classic American good guy. Why would it make sense for him to use springboard moonsault? Flying head scissors? Why would he take a guy down with an intricate chain of wrestling resulting in an arm bar? That'd be stupid, and would be completely ridiculous for his character.

A variety of moves does exactly dick for your ability to tell a story. Take Bret Hart. His moveset was virtually the same his entire singles career, and he really didn't use that many moves. But the stories were always different, because he was a damn good worker. The same goes for John Cena. Number of moves has dick to do with how good of a wrestler you are.

And sadly, sometimes I think people who pretty much say "I don't give a damn as long as it tells a story" are part of the reason behind that. If the fans constantly defend the bland style - why will WWE change their main event style or encourage their midcard to turn it up a notch when they are trying to get in that higher spot where they will have to change their style anyway? Style and story are two completely separate issues. The WWF works, primarily, more of a brawling style. Where big strong guys throw punches and kicks, and use a bunch of power moves. Sure, there are guys like Evan Bourne, and Fit Finlay who work different styles, but when you get to the main-event, that's generally the style you'll see. And it makes sense, because that is traditionally the type of fighting Americans want to see; big strong gladiators duking it out with their fists.

But, take Hart vs. Austin from WM 13 and compare it to Cena vs. Triple H at WM 22. Both those matches worked the same style, but had COMPLETELY different stories. Hart vs. Austin was basically a match to see who was the bigger badass. Who could beat-up who. And it was great. The match had a great story. The Cena vs. Triple H match was Brawler vs. Technician (which is dumb because Trips is a terrible wrestler...but, I digress). And, you can see that story play out in the beginning with Trips "outwrestling" Cena, and the story progresses to the end, where Cena catches Triple H with a drop toehold (a wrestling move) and beats him with a submission move.

Both matches featured the same style, but completely different stories.

Personally, I want variety and a good story. That's the reason I've enjoyed the hell out of Mysterio and Jericho. They have done stuff against each other you have not seen out of them in months or even years. It's different, fresh, exciting. Both wonderful storytelling and a variety of moves, spots, whatever you want to call them. Moves and spots are completely different. Moves are like the words to a story. Spots are the moments that are planned before a match, that the wrestlers work towards to help build heat in the match.

The main event could be the same. Slower style perhaps but it could be a variety combined with storytelling. Sadly, we live in times when spots are considered evil by most fans.No their not. But see, people like you don't really know what a spot is, so they see people who have knowledge of wrestling call things a "spotfest" and they just jump on the bandwagon.


EVERY match has spots. EVERY match. Like I said earlier, spots are just pre-planned moments in a match that the wrestlers work toward, in order to tell their story and build heat in the match. However, many people think spots are aerial moves or "holy shit" moments. They are completely different. When people throw the word "spotfests" around, what they mean is that the match has no good transitions from spot to spot, nothing that logically connects each spot with the next, to build the story. Instead, a spotfest match is where there is just a bunch of spots, and the wrestlers hit those spots for no reason. And that's why a spotfest is considered bad.

Some matches have more spots than others. For example, a Ric Flair match was usually called on the fly. They'd have a beginning spot, an end, and maybe one or two in the middle, but everything else was called on the fly. By comparison, Savage vs. Steamboat from WM 3 was planned out almost entirely. In theory, that whole match could be call a spot.

I remember back in the MNW era where Malenko, Benoit, etc would go out and tear things up with variety and a good story. People appreciated it. Now if someone uses more than 5 moves in a match - half the time it's a crap match because there's not enough story (even if there is one).

People did like Rey/Jericho so maybe there's hope.Those matches worked because the guys doing them understood that the moves had no impact on the match, just the story they were telling.

If you want to watch a bunch of wrestling moves, go buy a wrestling training tape. I bet you won't be entertained though.

I didn't know it could take years to do a moonsault either.A backflip requires YEARS of training... :rolleyes:

I wasn't talking about you or the other people on this thread just slyfox. It doesn't take years to do a moonsault but not anyone can do it.Yes, anyone can. Regardless of whether you have training in wrestling or not, you can do a backflip.
So your just attacking Slyfox saying hes just a fan of this generation when you have no idea when he started watching wrestling or how old he is.I'm 10 years old. Don't you see that in my profile? ;)
I shouldn't of bashed sly but a younger WWE fan telling everyone they know nothing about wrestling is insulting to everyone.Why does my age matter, when you know nothing about wrestling?

While Cena is no Bret Hart or Kurt AngleAnd thank God for that. Because one Angle is bad enough.

Luckily Cena is much better than Angle.

[klunderbunker]

Why can't Cena wrestle like that? Why should he? Cena's character is something that works perfectly the way it is. Hulk Hogan isn't someone that you would say needed to change his style. Why would have have needed to? He used even less moves and got the biggest pops of all time. As Sly said, wrestling isn't about the amount of moves in your repitoire. If that was the case, Dean Milenko and William Regal would headline almost every Wrestlemania there was. Pro wrestling is about mixing athleticism and storytelling together to create a product that the fans are interested in. Cena does that as well as if not better than anyone in the world right now.

[farfarawaysite]

Slyfox696 that is the problem with fans today, be it young or old. You think just because it tells a story it excuses anything and makes it passable. Yeah, stories are told different ways. I get it. I never said they weren't. I never said Cena should do a damn 450, I wouldn't care if he does.

I've been watching wrestling since 1980. So I'm not some teeny bopper who thinks movezz are da shitz and doesn't understand the concept of storytelling and the difference between moves and spots. Sadly, the majoity of the net doesn't, which is what I was getting at. It's kind of hard to talk the difference between them when, yes you are correct on that, most people (even insiders) are confused. But I wasn't and still am not.

I'd say more but why should I bother. You will just take it and twist it around and tirade about how you know everything. I'll admit I don't know everything about wrestling, but I know a damn lot. And I know just because it tells a story doesn't make it a classic.

Great matches tell stories - YES. Shit matches tell stories too, sadly.

But like I said, moves gives the stories variety. It's not always going to make it better, obviously. But it still gives it a different feel. But you don't care about that. Because moves are dick in your opinon.

"If you want to watch a bunch of wrestling moves, go buy a wrestling training tape. I bet you won't be entertained though."

I said I wanted variety of moves AND STORY. Read my post. Don't leave something out to twist what I said around.

"And thank God for that. Because one Angle is bad enough. Luckily Cena is much better than Angle."

I respect your opinon but calling one of the best damn overall performers that doesn't work for ROH better than Cena takes away your credibility. I'm not calling Cena crap, because I don't think he is such. But Angle's damn good and it shows just how much you do know about wrestling if you suggest he isn't.

[Slyfox696]

Moves only provide a variety of stories for those workers who aren't good enough to do it otherwise. Good wrestlers can use the same moves, or basically no moves, and still tell different stories that are good and different.

And, Angle is not good. He's a one trick pony who doesn't bother to give situations any thought when working his matches. For example, take his feud with Cena for example. Angle was supposed to be the heel, and yet he was constantly playing to the crowd, using high risk and crowd popping moves. That's not a good wrestler. A good wrestler adapts his style for the different situations he is in.

Like, say, John Cena.

[Southwind]

Why should Cena have to change his style I mean shouldn't a wrestlers style fit the gimmick he is portraying I mean it only makes sense. Cena is great at what he does I used to be on his hate train but that changed. Because I realized what story telling means to the product take Randy Orton for example people in the IWC complain his matches are boring awful and hes plain but the man is playing to his gimmick when he locks the headlocks in the fans boo he is doing his job as is John Cena there's just lots of fans out there that think being a great wrestler is only about having a great moveset it's wrong and the people that believe that are Wrong.

[Black Snow]

I understand that there's a strong value in being able to tell a story in the ring with minmal effort. Hulk Hogan made a career off of doing that. The point that I believe is being missed here is that there's nothing wrong with John Cena's style. People can argue until they're blue in the face as to if they LIKE the way Cena conducts his business in the ring. But the bottom line is that it clearly works. I would never question that.

But for me as a fan I want more. The WWE produces about six hours or original content a week. Add three more hours when there's a PPV. So in my book the value of a wrestler who tells his story with a varied moveset has skyrocketed since the days of Hogan when there was a good chance you wouldn't see him wrestle most weeks. Nowadays you can see the big names wrestle at least once every single week.

My attention is drawn most to people like Edge and Chris Jericho. They have the talent and fan appeal to just go for their signature moves week in and week out while relying on their charisma to fill the gaps like Cena does. But they don't. They earn more respect and attention from me because it doesn't matter who they wrestle against; they'll still give their all and try to pull a rabbit out of their hat in every match.

That's always been my main beef with Cena. I like the guy. I really do! In 2003 I was absolutely hooked on him. He was a big guy but he didn't wrestle like one would expect a typical big guy to wrestle. His promos were generally witty and rarely boiled down to lame gay/poop jokes like they do now. In everything he did it felt like he knew had already done what was necessary but he still wanted to do more. His character was already at 10 but he still decided to turn it up to 11.

I just don't feel that anymore. I think that's what disappoints me the most. Other wrestling fans have never liked Cena so they never really had any expectations. But since I used to be a Cena fan I had expectations. Say I have an undo sense of entitlement if you want but in reality my expectations really just mean that I like the guy.

That's where I really think the disconnect between Cena haters and Cena fans lies. Cena isn't really doing a lot wrong. When the haters say he's garbage they're lying. But I also believe that when the Cena fans say he's doing everything right they're off the mark as well. Maybe the haters' numbers have shrunk but they're still VERY vocal. It's incredibly rare that you go to a show where you can't see their signs or hear them. To dismiss them and just say they're wrong is very short-sighted in my view. You can't just sweep them under the rug or say that they're wrong. Well, you can but you shouldn't.

That's why the Cena debate is so ugly. Both sides are so vocal and they utterly refuse to admit that there's even a tiny chance they might be a little off the mark. It's so rare to find fans who have a middle ground on the subject. Hmmm... isn't that the aspect of Cena's character that the announcers are now trying to sell like crazy? Interesting...

To make a long story short (too late, I know) I really do miss the old Cena. But that doesn't mean the current Cena is bad.

[farfarawaysite]

I understand that there's a strong value in being able to tell a story in the ring with minmal effort. Hulk Hogan made a career off of doing that. The point that I believe is being missed here is that there's nothing wrong with John Cena's style. People can argue until....... too late, I know) I really do miss the old Cena. But that doesn't mean the current Cena is bad.

In actually replying to your whole post not just those few lines. Anyway.

You actually managed to say what I wanted to say without going off on a angry rant and losing focus on the point like I did. Also to Slyfox, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this matter.

My final remark on this subject. I'm the kind of person who, like Black snow, wants more. Sure what we get now might be fine but when you see that there are folks capable of doing more it kind of sucks to see the same formula mostly every week. One of my favorite matches of the "new era" has always been Triple H (who I despise these days)/Benoit from No Mercy 2000. Trips brought it that night, bumping it up when not one of us would have been upset if he didn't. But he still did, knowing he could have a slightly more memorable match. I miss that in general in WWE these days. Whether the way thigns are is a result of style, politics or something else I'll admit things may often be "okay" but I want and feel we could get more.

This is a new era of wrestling. Things should be changing. We should we getting a faster paced, more athletic product that can be entertaining at the same time. Traditional shouldn't die, obviously. But there should be more variety. That's why I continue to watch the current product, despite not liking a lot of it. I watch hoping things will change - and enjoying a few things that are still enjoyable (Rey/Jericho for example). It may or may never be different. We don't need another attitude era - we need a new era of athletic with an athletic story.

Sadly, my viewing habits is why I call wrestling a drug. You take it and watch it and you keep going for it. It's hard to resist. Even when you aren't pleased with it.

[Tenta]

Sigh... I get what you're saying, and I'm pretty sure KB and Slyfox have said it earlier (actually, looking at it, KB did indeed say it. Alas, I'm already here)

Why should he? I mean, he's already selling out arenas worldwide. Why should he do more. Is he going to sell out more than he already is? He's already the WWE's lead guy, and they guy they're going to go with for the next fifteen years (presumably). So why should he have to?

Hulk Hogan has said it before, and I actually agree with this philosophy; why should you do as much as you did New York, when you're working in Poughkeepsie. That is what I'd argue Bret Hart would do; he worked far more than he had to all over the entire country. And guess what; people eventually found his matches far too predictable. And he probably gassed himself out from an extra years (spare him getting kicked in the head by Goldberg. I'd argue if that didn't happen, he'd work another five years. Where as, he had the ability to go another fifteen years if he wanted to.)

John Cena is being smart. He's using them when he has to, and he's not over selling himself.

Let's use this analogy... You like ladder matches, right?

Did they mean more to you in 1994, or in 2009?

And you want to know why they meant more in 1994? Aside from the WWE using them to oblivion, the wrestlers knew to use the big spots when they had to. Now, ladder matches are nothing but big spots, and the chase to do bigger and better spots is catching up to the wrestlers. Look at Edge and Jeff Hardy: One broke his neck, and the other constantly burns out. And now, the pops are dying, because they can't do the huge spots they use to.

Now look at HBK and Razor Ramon. Didn't their ladder matches mean more? Absolutely, because they knew when to pick their spots, and leave the fans wanting more. And they got far more over as time progressed.

Such is the case of John Cena. It's called "self preservation". And it's smart.

[Slyfox696]

This is a new era of wrestling. Things should be changing. We should we getting a faster paced, more athletic product that can be entertaining at the same time.I could not disagree more whole-heartedly. The pace we see now these days is WAY to fast, it's completely unbelievable. Wrestling is ALWAYS at it's best when it's believable as a realistic product. When the workers try to make the matches seem not like a show, but as real life. That's the true definition of workrate.

Too many guys today trade aerial spots and fast pace matches for quality, and wrestling fans are just as much to blame as the wrestlers are. Wrestlers do it because it's an easy to pop the crowds in the indys, and they don't learn the art of working an audience, and fans are responsible because their attention span is roughly 3 seconds.

But, we should NOT be getting faster pacing, we should be slowing it down, making it believable. Wrestling has actually made a cartoon of itself, not with gimmicks, but rather with the moves we see, and the amazing "resiliency" of the wrestlers. I mean, back in the day, a piledriver was like killing a man...now it's a routine move. Wrestling has become completely unbelievable, and in my opinion, is one of the reasons why it is no longer as popular as it should be.

Take even Steve Austin. While his character did outlandish things which appealed to the shock nature of TV in the late 90s, once he was in the ring, his character was very grounded and very believable. He didn't do anything fancy, he was just the rough and tough redneck you'd meet in the bar down the street. There was nothing flashy about Austin in the ring, but he was so damn good at what he did, people loved watching him fight. We need more of THAT in wrestling today, not guys who think that fast paced matches means they are better wrestlers.

[Cheech 72]

I could not disagree more whole-heartedly. The pace we see now these days is WAY to fast, it's completely unbelievable. Wrestling is ALWAYS at it's best when it's believable as a realistic product. When the workers try to make the matches seem not like a show, but as real life. That's the true definition of workrate.

Too many guys today trade aerial spots and fast pace matches for quality, and wrestling fans are just as much to blame as the wrestlers are. Wrestlers do it because it's an easy to pop the crowds in the indys, and they don't learn the art of working an audience, and fans are responsible because their attention span is roughly 3 seconds.

But, we should NOT be getting faster pacing, we should be slowing it down, making it believable. Wrestling has actually made a cartoon of itself, not with gimmicks, but rather with the moves we see, and the amazing "resiliency" of the wrestlers. I mean, back in the day, a piledriver was like killing a man...now it's a routine move. Wrestling has become completely unbelievable, and in my opinion, is one of the reasons why it is no longer as popular as it should be.

Take even Steve Austin. While his character did outlandish things which appealed to the shock nature of TV in the late 90s, once he was in the ring, his character was very grounded and very believable. He didn't do anything fancy, he was just the rough and tough redneck you'd meet in the bar down the street. There was nothing flashy about Austin in the ring, but he was so damn good at what he did, people loved watching him fight. We need more of THAT in wrestling today, not guys who think that fast paced matches means they are better wrestlers.


You can have a great storyline and and awesome match in the ring. You will disagree with me again cause Cena is the greatest wrestler in the world in your opinion. I'm just saying people can argue that Savage and Steamboat had the greatest match at Wrestlemania because of the sure athleticism. More would say a match between Hogan and Andre even though there were a few moves it told a great story and only needed a body slam to get the crowd standing on their feet. Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels at WM25 also told a great story and the two had great athleticism. By the way you need years of training to be a good wrestler and get to be in the WWE, a kid at the pool can do flips and all that but he's not trained to protect himself or the person he his wrestling with if he were to do that in the ring, which he doesn't need to do flips or moonsaults anyway. IMO Cena/Triple H or Cena/Michaels at WM told a good story and had great athleticism but compared to Michaels/Hart Iron Match or Taker/Michaels it's not the same. I'm not putting down those matches but the one's I will are the WHC match at WM25 and the WWE title match at W25. The story was great with Triple H and Orton but that match was fast, rushed, and shitted on. The same could be said about the WHC match, the match was faster then most matches on Raw or Smackdown. I'm not saying someone needs to do a damn iron man match and I know the title matches this year had to take a back seat to the real main event of Taker and Michaels. I'm not shitting on Cena, he just needs a good feud with someone new like he did with the Miz. That didn't last long but it was more refreshing then the same old Edge, Triple H, or Orton feud he's had for the past 2 years. AJ Styles will never be as big as John Cena for now, but you shouldn't shit all over athletes that are gifted in the ring but need a little improvement in story telling.

[Slyfox696]

You can have a great storyline and and awesome match in the ring. Well, yeah. Because a match that tells a good story, and executes it well IS what makes an awesome match. Take Hogan vs. Warriors from Wrestlemania 6. That's a terrific match, executed very well, that tells a tremendous story of putting over the next big thing. It was about which Goliath was bigger and better. It was about the old guard (Hogan) being matched step for step by Warrior, showing the fans that Warrior was every bit as good as Hogan was...and even a little better.

That's a great story, it was executed very well, and thus is a very great match.

You will disagree with me again cause Cena is the greatest wrestler in the world in your opinion. Not at all, because Cena does those things which makes him a great wrestler.

I'm just saying people can argue that Savage and Steamboat had the greatest match at Wrestlemania because of the sure athleticism. Sure, for the time, it was a very athletic contest, but if you go back and watch it now, it's no better than what you see every week in TNA or WWE.

However, that match is STILL great, despite the athleticism no longer being extraordinary. And thus, it shows the match wasn't good because of athleticism, but because of the flawless execution, the way they built heat in the match, the way they involved the crowd, the way they built upon the storyline going in...just a terrific match, even to this day. In my opinion, it is the match that all matches should strive to be like, in terms of quality and execution.

But, not because they were athletic.

More would say a match between Hogan and Andre even though there were a few moves it told a great story and only needed a body slam to get the crowd standing on their feet. The match gets a bad rap, but it's not great. Historic? Yes. Epic? Yes. Great? Meh...not really. Solid? Ok. Decent? Sure. But the ring work wasn't great. And that's fine, it was never sold to be. Andre was way past his prime, and the draw to the match was him passing the torch to Hogan.

Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels at WM25 also told a great story and the two had great athleticism.Good match, but incredibly overrated.

The problem with that match is that people just read the names of the competitors and attached two stars to the match automatically, and everything after it just bumps it up. Don't get me wrong, good match, best on the card, but not as great as people like to pretend it is.

By the way you need years of training to be a good wrestler and get to be in the WWEAbsolutely. To be a good wrestler, most people would need 10-15 years to become the best they can be.

a kid at the pool can do flips and all And that's my point. And thus saying that RVD was great because he can do flips is a ridiculous statement.

IMO Cena/Triple H or Cena/Michaels at WM told a good story and had great athleticism but compared to Michaels/Hart Iron Match or Taker/Michaels it's not the same.You're right...the Cena matches were better than the Hart and Taker matches.

Michaels vs. Hart is an overrated bore, and that's coming from a huge Hart fan who lists that match as one of his bests efforts. But, it's still not good. It's a 35-40 minute match stretched out to 60+ minutes.

The story was great with Triple H and Orton but that match was fast, rushed, and shitted on. Umm...the storyline going in got weaker and weaker the closer they got to Wrestlemania...and the match was just awful.

AJ Styles will never be as big as John Cena for now, but you shouldn't shit all over athletes that are gifted in the ring but need a little improvement in story telling.AJ Styles is a very good wrestler, one of the best in the ring of the day. I'm not shitting on him at all.

[Nev]

If I remember correctly, everyone as in the internet wrestling community, loved Cena.

When Undertaker buried him, everyone was pissed. Cena has always been known to be popular I guess. It must be because of his character change in RAW 2005. It happened around his feud with Angle, it was pretty obvious he was a total 100% babyface and thus, hated.

[Paradox]

I wasn't talking about you or the other people on this thread just slyfox. It doesn't take years to do a moonsault but not anyone can do it. I'm just saying wrestlers should have the best of both worlds, be able to cut a promo and put on a good match. Morrison and Benjamin are talented and aren't on the main event level yet.

I'll agree with you on Morrison, but Benjamin is horrible on the mic. Really what is one memorable promo has he done? That's right none.

Cena is Huge right now and doesn't need to have fancy moves. I'm just a fan that appreciates the whole package of things, wrestling and mic skills.

Cena has the whole package. Great on the mic, great in the ring, he does it all. He's a great wrestler that can do just about anything he wants. Like KB said he doesn't have to. RVD did have the stuff he did, because otherwise he wouldn't be known. Cena can put on a great match with out having to jump half way across the ring to get a great reaction from the fans.

[phemom]

I think the reason Cena is hated by so many of the older males is because his matches are predictable and he is the role model to so many kids. It seems to me that when something is widely popular with children, it tends to turn off adults who used to like the product before it became mainstream.

Just like every super-over wrestler WWE has ever had...once something sticks...it sticks! Why go out of the box when the box is good to you? Sometimes adult males will like a gimmick that makes kids run (Austin, Bret Hart), so I get the hatred for vice versa.

I'm not saying that Cena's character is perfect, he could use some more regular moves but it's not as horrible as some in this thread have said....and it's not changing anytime soon either.

I would be that when Cena turns heel, he will just get cheered like Austin did when he sided w/Vince...change isn't always necessary.

[Saddler The Great]

No, I seem to think that more PEOPLE are attending events in general (as in, attendance rates are higher), that the hate is gone.

Who gives a fuck about the IWC? But, since you're mentioning it, the IWC doesn't have even HALF the hate it did back in 2006. Good try though.

Not true. We think they're great because they build a great story, know how to get the crowd hot at just the right time, and then deliver a great climax. You know, the basic art of storytelling...the basic art of pro wrestling.

LOL, how can Cena be brutal at it when he never does it? Cena's not a technical wrestler, and he doesn't work a technical style. And it would be completely stupid for him to work a technical style since that wouldn't fit his gimmick.

Do you know anything about wrestling?

Who gives a fuck about the IWC? You're the one posting on this site u douche...