General WWE Complaining Thread

[Slam Master]

The WWE recently said they wanted to vastly improve Monday Night Raw after Wrestlemania and the Draft to once again make it worthy of being called their flagship show. Lately, it seems like it's gotten worse..The matches are short, boring with no room for high spots or great comebakcs for the most part, and the owner's son, not even a wrestler, was main eventing, getting the better of the WWE Champion and his confidantes every time they wrestled up until last week when they took his leg out. It seems like the gimmicks they have are just goofy,pointless and the matches are lackluster. Michael Cole doesn't help either, it just hasn't been the same since JR was traded. There's one or two things I like about it now, but for the majority I'm not looking as forward to it as I used to.

Smackdown's matches are way more intense and wrestling oriented. This past week they had solid matches from mid-carders going 10 mins. or more and great main events. Granted I know its sports entertainment, but its a wrestling show and bottom line its got to be about the wrestling.

I think to give Raw and Smackdown a boost they should start putting the titles on the line on cable more often like they used to in the mid to late 90's, and having more solid, wrestling oriented matches...Thoughts??

[rnzrkorip]

i agree 100%. i love wrestling. and if a wrestling show is on, i am going to mark out during the show and love it simply because i am a die hard wrestling fan and if it has to do with wrestling, i am going to like it. however, like most over the age of 12, once the show is over and the dust has cleared, i look at the quality of the show itself. monday night raw has gone straight to hell from what it used to be. watching orton pull off and say his psychotic sick ass shit on the mcmahons made me feel that they are starting to become serious once again. however, as usual nowadays, they fucked it all up beyond repair. don't get me wrong, like everything else in life things can be fixed, but they're going to have to start pretty damn quick. the mcmahon's need to keep their business out of the ring, michael cole needs to go back to backstage interviewing, rhodes and dibiase need their own agendas, mvp needs to stop trying so hard to be a face, cena needs to be booked to actually wrestle, so on and so forth. shit....

[The Infant Finite]

I feel the same way about it, but unfortunately the "casual moro...i mean...fan" doesnt really react to technical prowess or even solid in-ring action anymore. They want Cena's rugurgitated catch phrases or Jeff Hardy's wreckless rockstar act or Batista's sloppy and dangerous "animal" style.
Now that Kurt Angle is in TNA (ew), Chris Benoit has passed on and Brock Lesnar left the buisness for greener pastures, they're are no more high profile guys left to help people remember that it's called wrestling for a reason.
As much as I love the ring styles of people like Shelton Benjamin, CM Punk, Kofi Kingston and Jack Swagger (he cant talk but he is very solid in that ring),
they're styles dont really get over because they're not nearly flashy enough, unless they water down they're style signifigantly (Punk has flourished largely due to it).

I don't like saying it, because i'm an old school ECW type of fan, where technical wrestling and giving guys the time to give us something special mattered to the people in charge. But this is big buisness and big buisness will always put forth highly "stepped on" product in the interest of profitability.
It sucks, but this is what happens when there is only one real game in town.
TNA has a chance at competing down the road, but they have serious creative and booking issues that need to be sorted out before they get to that point.


Until a proper competitor arises, i'm afraid he WWE has no cause to bring back all the aspects of wrestling that made us "Hardcore" fans love it so in the first place. Mediocre product for a mediocre market in a mediocre world, thanks a lot Vince.

[gers09]

been thinking about this for few days what was vince McMahon biggest mistake


i think to be hounest it buying wcw i think wwe was at it best when i had competition in wcw they had to beat wcw week in week out tna is no where near being that competition for wwe at the moment but because wcw was good and was beating wwe week in week out vince had to pull out all the cards but now that wcw no longer there he doesnt have to so he not trying anymore

what do you think of all the things vince has done what has been worse for wrestling?

[Blade]

There's a few pretty big mistakes....

But I think the biggest was letting The Rock go to holywood.
The guy was a huge star inside and outside the wrestling world, even before he was in movies. Ratings were high whenever he was around and he made the overall product that much better with both his promos and his matches. He made a great world champion and could work with anyone.
And as I said, ratings were always high for Rock. Rocky = money. Vince should've done everything he could (within reason) to keep him around. And I think, no matter how much money or control Vince could've ended up giving The Rock, Rocky would've never turned into a Hogan type power backstage. He would've put young guys over and did what was good for the business.
Would ratings be as low right now if Rocky was still around, feuding with Orton and Edge? Hard to say, but I believe they would be considerably higher.

[Lord Sidious]

Wrestling fans may feel that Vince buying WCW was his biggest mistake, but I am sure that Vince would vehemently disagree. Despite how fuming a lot of us are at his lack of a Creative product, he is actually very profitable due to the prices he charges, and the amount of people out there willing to pay those prices.

So where as today's fan base is definitely smaller than it was in popular times ... he is actually making more profit in this Era, which is the name of the game for survival.

I hate today's product with a passion. But what do you do, when Vince's profits are higher than ever?

[HansChristianFrankenstein]

His biggest mistake was putting Stephanie in charge, plain and simple. Buying WCW wasn't a mistake, that should have been a HUGE storyline. An actual WWE vs. WCW fued was what every pro wrestling fan wanted and should have been bigger than the NWO. Sure, they didn't have all the top WCW stars at first, but eventually they signed most of them and new WCW guys showing up all the time could have kept the storyline going for a long time.

[SavageTaker]

I don't think that his biggest mistake was buying WCW. As a matter of fact no matter what anyone in WCW said it, the company was still going to be sold because the network executives didn't want wrestling in their network. Vince buying WCW guarantees him a lot of money. Vince owns anything that has to do with WCW, so he will be making a lot of money from the DVD's he can put out of former WCW wrestlers and other things.

Anyways back on subject, I think one of his biggest mistakes was not encouraging Austin to get his injuries, especially his neck, heal correctly. I think that if he had told Austin to not worry about anything and just get healed, Austin might still be able to wrestle full time or at least every once in a while. Now I'm not by any means saying that it's Vince's fault that Austin can't wrestle anymore because it isn't his fault, but I think he should have told him to get healed correctly even if the company was in bad shape.

[marlowshanem@ymail.com]

I agree with the statement that buying WCW was a huge mistake, but WCW was on it's way out anyway. So from a profit standpoint, it made sense at the time.

True, the invasion angle could have been done way better, but if you look at it, its typical of Vince McMahon. He let it go for a while, but what eventually happened with the angle was a mirror image of real life. WWE crushed WCW in the invasion angle, and WCW was dead (again).

Vince's biggest mistake is simply being Vince. He has surrounded himself these last few years with a bunch of "yes-men" and anyone who actually has the balls to stand up to him gets kicked to the curb. Vince, a multi-millionaire for at least the past 20 years, has the delusion that he is, in fact, very in touch with the common wrestling fan and knows exactly what they want.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Vince's mistake is simply being Vince. If he were to recognize that his product is pretty much shit, that he has no idea whatsoever what the fans want, then perhaps he would take a look around and hire people, as well as listen to people, who can deliver a solid product.

WWE can recapture it's glory, if Vince stops being Vince.

[Drue]

I agree with marlowshanmen, Vince needs to stop being Vince. He needs to realize that its about what the audience of millions wants, not the audience of one (Him). Buying out WCW was a horrible decision because it ALLOWS Vince to be Vince. It allows him to do the crappy, repetitive storylines and push guys who don't deserve it because he has NO competition. If WCW or ECW were still around, Vince would have a hard time putting butts in seats with the crap he churns out now. If TNA ever got their act together they might be able to compete, but right now Vinnie Russo is turning them into WCW2.

[I_Like_All_Wrestling]

Vince McMahon's biggest mistake?

Three Words (well.. not really..):

The X..F..L..

I think I would agree with that, that makes a lot of sense.

It's hard to classify certain things as "mistakes" - like letting the Rock go to Hollywood. What was he supposed to do? Sign him to a 40 million a year guaranteed multi-year contract, with merchandise profit sharing and a limited schedule? There was just no way that he could have competed with the draw of making movies.

Now people who say that buying WCW was Vince's biggest mistake, it absolutely is not. If you say that, you're saying it based on your perception as a fan. As some others have already pointed out, WCW was going to be sold no matter what. Vince came in and bought it at a supposedly ridiculous price. He kept it out of the hands of someone who might have made it a true competitor and with contracts, he kept a lot of guys from either joining or starting a new promotion at the time. If anything, it was worth it for Vince to acquire the rights to the video library of NWA/WCW times of guys like Sting, Flair, Steamboat, The Steiners, and even Austin, not to mention the nwo. WWE makes a lot of DVDs based on that older footage.

When you look at questions like these you have to think from two different perspectives; the fan, and the businessman. Both views are generally going to conflict most of the time.

[PayneKiller79]

I have to agree with what marlowshanem said. I think one of his biggest mistakes was the way he handled the invasion angle. If he pulled everything off the way he should have, it would have made millions and could have easily lasted until Wrestlemania, instead of the blowoff at Survivor Series. Forget making Stephanie and Shane the leaders of the respective groups--that was doomed from the get-go and we all knew it. Heyman and Bishoff should have been put into those roles. Add to the fact the contracts of Sting, Hogan, Flair, Goldberg and many others should have been bought up. Sure, it would have been a high cost, but it would have easily paid for itself over a couple of high calibre PPV matches. Mike Awesome, if I remember correctly was the first "invader." It should have been someone of a higher calibre, and someone important should have been attacked, and not who was. (Sorry, but I can't remember who.) Vince needs to learn to put what the fans want first, and not his own personal agenda. In putting the fans first, the product will actually be more successful.

[tnarage2]

i think the biggest mistake that vince did is two things one is that he took out the extreme in ecw extreme and hardcore matches made high ratings but the biggest mistake for vince is wwe going pg i know the wwe is trying to reach out the kids but most of them are in bed when raw and ecw comes on so vince should put raw and ecw back to tv14 and sd on tv pg becuse kids watch smackdown more than ecw and raw
so vince put bck the e in ecw and have raw and ecw be back to tv14 for the adults and teens.


DONT ORDER JOHN CENA NEW PPV CALLED YOU CANT SEE MY PPV

[rnzrkorip]

vince mcmahon's biggest mistake is what many have said already, he is simply vince mcmahon. john cena actually pointed it out pretty well in a promo once, the guy is fucking insane. anybody who believes that raw is better than smackdown or ecw for that matter right now is out of their minds. good god, the flag ship show has gotten bad. he makes legacy look like the 3 little bitches, the santina angle is old, stale, and just crap, the tag titles seem almost non-existent, some of the main divas are being used like hell, john cena is shit, batista is shit, triple h; don't even get me started on that, it's all gone to hell. but ya, vince's flaw is that he still exists in the wwe universe. anybody think shane/steph are going to do any better? i highly doubt it. but we can still hope.

[pampero firpo]

vince needs to resurrect wcw nitro....instead of keeping it buried. something. the wwe has gotten stale. vince couldnt even do much with the nwo. he dropped the nwo quick. if you watch on youtube when the nwo was in the wwe for that short period.....it was pretty funny. especially when stone cold confronted them. THE WWE UNIVERSE SUCKS !

[NaturallyPricele$$]

I agree with marlowshanmen, Vince needs to stop being Vince. He needs to realize that its about what the audience of millions wants, not the audience of one (Him). Buying out WCW was a horrible decision because it ALLOWS Vince to be Vince. It allows him to do the crappy, repetitive storylines and push guys who don't deserve it because he has NO competition. If WCW or ECW were still around, Vince would have a hard time putting butts in seats with the crap he churns out now. If TNA ever got their act together they might be able to compete, but right now Vinnie Russo is turning them into WCW2.



Read your statement, you contradict yourself. "Buying out WCW was a horrible decision...he has no competition.....if WCW or ECW was around, Vince would have a hard time putting butts in seats."


If I would agree with your statement that WCW or ECW would give Vince competition, which I don't, then wouldn't it make perfect sense to buy them out? You are looking at the WCW/ECW buy out as a wrestling fan, Vince has built up a monopoly in the wrestling business. If you don't like his product tuff shit cause its the only game in town. Sucks as a fan, but a perfect scenearo as a business owner. Buying WCW was genious, it was purchased for pennies on the dollar for what it was worth; the tape library alone was worth the selling price. ECW was bought out of bankruptcy, so you know Vince paid a little to nothing for that.

If your a business owner, who has a chance to completely buy out your major competition for pennies, making yourself the only show in town, why wouldn't you do it?????

[Dave]

Yeah I agree that it was not his biggest mistake. Not even a little. He was so successful that he actually bought his only competetion. That is not a mistake, that is just good business. Sidious had it exactly right. He is more than likely making more profit now than he was ever making in the attitude era and that's because people have no alternative and the alternative we could have is pretty poor at the moment. His biggest mistake, for me, was the limo explosion stoyline. That could not have came at worse time really. It wasn't his fault but that's just the way it goes I suppose.

[gers09]

ok reading the other posts has got me thinking that i am wrong and that buying wcw was not a mistake the way he did the invasion yes he could of done that better and his biggest mistake is being vince

but i was just thinking did he make right choice in what to bring back we all know that ECW fans are passionate about the product but thats where i think he was wrong his vision for ECW is not right if you get my meaning it not extreame enough for the old ECW fans. should he have brought back WCW as a brand insted?

[lamo78]

The XFL was a complete joke. I also think that some of the gimmick stuff is crap. The Donald Trump vs. Rosie match??? Come on. That may have been mildly amusing at best, but the match went on for like 7 or 8 minutes. It was a complete joke. Letting Bret Hart go was also a mistake. I know, it is debateable but still. Bret was a big player at the time.

Although I still say that the biggest mistake in wrestling history was David Arquette being champion.

[Milkyway!]

Anything you can get a monopoly on, is not a mistake. Mcmahon has a monopoly like no other in the wrestling world. Sure theres some smaller territories but overall, Vince owns the World of wrestling. People try to put out a diffrent product, at this point all he has to do is scoop up their best talent, offer them double pay, and put that business out of business. Kinda like UFC has on the MMA world of television right now. Mcmahon can do whatever the hell HE wants to do, and charge whatever HE wants to charge for it. That will never be a mistake, on anyones part. To get a monopoly, is better than winning the lottery all around the world 15 times. Simply becuase you can do whatever the heck you want with it, when you want with it. At your prices, on your terms.

[sevastra82]

I think BB's biggest mistake is how he let his ego get the best of him concerning the WCW "Invasion" angle. This angle could of been the biggest in the history of the sport. But instead, Vince decided it would be "fun" to just bury all of WCW's talent as if they were all nobodys. He killed some very good talent and ruined others...DDP could of be HUGE in the WWE but Vince felt it was best to serve him up to the Undertaker. Booker T managed to last long enough to gain his credibility back, but he was fed to Austin like a jobber at first. Everyone else he just spat on to fill his ego.

This angle could of been HUGE. He had every wrestling star WCW had at his disposal. Instead, he chose to feed them to his wolves and make every single one of them look like undercard jobbers in the process.

[redcorleone]

Shane has to be Vince's biggest mistake. If only he'd used protection 40 years ago, we wouldn't have to suffer that pathetic Muhammad Ali like shuffle he attempts, before he miraculously beats up guys who are twice his size and are trained/experienced athletes. Sure, i admired the 'coast to coast' move at first, and i respected the 30ft (according to Lawler it was 70ft) bump he took against Steve Blackman. But he's to old now to be skipping around the ring, and even getting the better of Legacy for a while in a 3 on 1 handicap match, when he's clearly out of shape and just looks like an accountant.

[KillBill]

Vince's biggest mistake outside of the invasion angle, was Booker T. Not letting him win the title from HHH at Wrestlemania 19 was rediculous. Booker was extremely over with the fans, arguably one of the most popular at the time, and Vince didn't give him a chance then. It would have been great, and maybe Vince would have been thought of differently for giving a WCW superstar the belt so soon after the invasion, esp over his boy. But nope, he let us down with that 1.

[ThePeoplesChampion]

Its quite simple not the buying or the wcw angle cause he made money off it.....three letters X F L ....he went up against america's favorite past time the NFL and lost miserable...in the process he lost money and crediblity and became the laughing stock of sports for awhile now...i mean really anytime WWE is on sportscenter they mention it lol...hell he even made fun of himself with the xba.....so its easy he went up against the most popluar sport NFL and lost badly.

[HansChristianFrankenstein]

three letters X F L ....he went up against america's favorite past time the NFL and lost miserable.

Actually "america's favorite past time" is considered to be baseball. And he didn't go up against the NFL, the XFL was during the NFL's off-season.

[666_The_Game_666]

well vince has done alot of stuff in the past i guess people will think that his biggest mistake is making WWE go PG well that aint the biggest it was buying out his own comeption i mean buying out the company which made you go out and make yours better is just stupid and what did Vince do with WCW nothing if he didnt buy it WWE could of done some more stuff for a bit longer

[gers09]

tna is getting much better but it will take years until they become a challenge

your right it is getting better and i for one hope it does become a challenge for them and i hope it soon i think it the only way wwe will get better it will have to or tna will take over

[mcflyboy]

There are three things that come to my mind. I'm not sure if they rate up there in "biggest mistake" territory, but they are things that it if they had been or become fixed, might have made a better overall product. So here are the three, in no particular order

1. Vince's belief that he's funny and his desire to interject ridiculous, immature (and often toilet-based) humor into the programs. His recent rant and yelling about the name "enos" is a good example, as is covering the spirit squad with feces, donald trump vs. rosie, JR's colonoscopy, etc. I'm not saying that humor in the shows is a bad thing, but Vince has a habit of taking it too far and leaving a bad taste in your mouth.

2. Vince's preference for large, powerful buff guys. He hasn't really gotten over that since the 80s. It seems like there have been a lot of wasted opportunities of very talented individuals who had been banished to tag team, cruiserweight, or jobber duties over the years. Granted, the push for the powerful is not as blatant as it used to be, but it has resulted in squandered opportunities.

3. Vince yelling into the headsets of announcers. It's been stated on this site that in general, former announcers have stated that they don't like it. You can almost always tell when they are repeating something that Vince told them to say. Or you can tell when they are being forced to laugh at something they don't really find funny, but vince told them to (for example, recent hysterical laughing by the announcers at the antics of "santina"). Why not let them be themselves, develop their own style and personalities on their own? And why does Vince have to scream at them? I think a large part of what helps in watching the television programs is listening to the announcers, and turning them into vince clones doesn't seem to serve any purpose.

[GIMH]

I would agree with the post that cited the Invasion angle. That was something we had all really wanted for a good five years, and it was so underwhelming. Yeah, some of it wasn't his fault because of the contractual situations, but it just wound up as another McMahon feud. I loved it when Shane 'bought' WCW from under his nose, and when the 'Alliance' initially formed it was gold, one of the great Raw moments from history. From there onwards though, they messed it up too much. Too many WWF wrestlers going across to the alliance, it was basically just one big faces v heels feud. Look at the deciding match at Survivor Series, the alliance team consisted of Booker T, RVD, Shane0Mac, Austin & Angle. So you basically had two WCW/ECW wrestlers in what was supposed to be the big showdown.

It is a shame that he couldn't continue WCW programming, I read that if he hadn't botched the XFL that networks might have been more willing to give Vince a go with WCW. But basically they didn't trust him with any non-WWF products at the time, because of the likes of XFL, WBF etc

[shankdc231]

i think vince's biggest mistake is letting stephanie becoming head of the creative team. she is the mom of two young children, so she is going to run things through a mother of a young childs p.o.v. because that is just normal parent instinct. i mean she seemed to be down with all the great ideas till she popped out a few i.e. stephanie vs. vince back in 2003 or her and the undertaker kid napping

[jayp_1984]

His biggest mistake was putting Stephanie in charge, plain and simple. Buying WCW wasn't a mistake, that should have been a HUGE storyline. An actual WWE vs. WCW fued was what every pro wrestling fan wanted and should have been bigger than the NWO. Sure, they didn't have all the top WCW stars at first, but eventually they signed most of them and new WCW guys showing up all the time could have kept the storyline going for a long time.

i couldnt agree more!!!

its the equivalent to saturday night live putting tina fey in charge. one move that almost single handily killed whatever good was going on. you know things are awful when they are talking about canceling snl, lets hope that the similar fate doesn't happen to the wwe.

[Lord Sidious]

I was one that thought for some time now that Stephanie was the problem. However, my opinion of that changed with the buildup to this year's Mania. After what we saw from Vince leading up to Wrestlemania, I am convinced more than ever, that Stephanie is actually powerless, and that Vince is the one really in charge of the Creative Team. I think Vince dictates every single thing he wants from Creative and everything you see on TV is his doing. Not Stephanie's.

Reportedly, Stephanie is actually a fan of the Hogan Era of wrestling, and every thing we see on TV today, is not reflective of the Hogan Era at all.

So pretty much, I think Stephanie has a title, and a title only as EVP of Creative. Essentially, I see Vince dictating to her down to the last detail, every single thing you see on TV today.

With that being said, I don't think Stephanie is the problem. I think Vince is the problem, and his absolute stranglehold over the Creative team. For a Chairman of the Board of a company, I see this as problematic, and think he is entirely too involved in this one facet of the company.

[Harthan]

You know, honestly, I'd go with the career destruction and release of Muhammad Hassan.

Muhammad Hassan was becoming one of the best foreign heels, even, I daresay, one of the best heels, period, ever. He was hated like a bastard, which is to be expected, considering the attitude toward terrorists and his huge anti-America attitude. Yeah, it's a form of cheap heat, but damn it, he did it well. Furthermore, he had a fantastic look and was very strong in the ring. He was a fantastic midcard talent and, at the time of his release, just begging to be unleashed on the main event.

The angle that caused his eventual demise was actually fantastic. Terrorists attacking and beating down the Undertaker, a beloved face, was just golden. Copani came out and looked like a legit main event beast, and he was about to step into the limelight.

This, of course, is where things went wrong.

At the same time this aired, the London bombings had just occurred, and with this fresh in mind, a terrorist attack occurs on entertainment TV. This, of course, led to a media backlash, and UPN saying that wanted to downplay Hassan. This led to Hassan's defeat at the hands of the Undertaker, and his effective burying. Had Hassan won that match, he'd have challenged Batista for the world's title...and who knows what would have happened. I think it's entirely possible that Hassan would have won the World Heavyweight Championship.

This was handled poorly in a number of respects, and there's several ways this could have been used to the advantage of Hassan, or at least done no harm to him.

Option #1 is using the negative attention as a wave to even bigger heat. If UPN had any balls, or Vince had the balls to tell UPN to stuff it and do things his way (which he almost certainly had the pull to do), they could have used this to turn Hassan into a humongous heel. Come out and shit all over the victims of the London bombings, say he was thankful they were all dead, that they deserved to burn in infidel hell, etc., etc. It would have been enormous heat, on an unprecedented level. It could have shot Hassan straight to the top.

Option #2 occurs if UPN really won't have any of it, and won't let Hassan on the show. Alright, so be it. Move him to Raw. It would have hurt his momentum, sure, but I guarantee he could have recovered. Here's how I would have set it up - start a midcard feud on Raw that involves a "Loser Leaves Raw" match, and when the loser leaves, Raw demands someone from SmackDown to make up for the loss. SmackDown sends over Hassan, glad to be rid of him. This of course leads to the problem of the Undertaker vs Hassan match, but it could have been ended easily with a DQ finish on Hassan's part, with him looking like a dominant heel, but Taker actually winning. Then, he goes to Raw, and gets things done over there, he was more than capable.

No, instead, Vince acted like a bitch and caved to UPN. He destroyed Hassan's career, and lost a man who could potentially have become one of the best heels ever, and who could still be around to this day, bringing excitement to a stale main event scene.

So, while Vince has made a number of mistakes, I'd have to rank this at very near the top. It's just so mind boggling that Vince could have allowed a talent like Hassan to slip through his fingers like that, without doing a damn thing to stop it.

[twig973]

It would have to be completely eliminating his competition, WCW. Vince does his absolute best under pressure and when he's backed into a corner. It's part of the reason why the WWE has become a little stale because the lack of competition.

[King Patrick]

I don’t think Vince’s biggest mistake was buying WCW. I think his biggest mistake was what he did with it afterwards. If he did the Invasion angle the right way, instead of just putting his Federation over Extreme World Championship Wrestling, his biggest mistake could have been his biggest accomplishments. Yes the Brand Extension was basically his only resort after this, but he should have kept it separate with a few cross branded storylines. The formation of the WCW / ECW merger, plus the all out Federation vs. Alliance war, plus the aftermath could have been better had Vince thought about everyone else. Raw vs. Smackdown “featuring” ECW is okay, but WWE vs. WCW vs. ECW would have been better. I think that we could be enjoying WWE on Mondays, ECW on Tuesdays, and WCW on Fridays much more than what it is now, WWE on Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Fridays. Oh well. It is what it is and it’s better than nothing, right??

[RH23]

I think his biggest mistake is his ego. As others have said, he thinks he knows what wrestling fans want even though he has no clue. He delivers a shitty product that is so predictable with the same guys always in the main event. All he needs to do is to ask a bunch of wrestling fans what they want to see.

Buying WCW was not a mistake for Vince, it showed that he was the premier booker in pro wrestling. For fans though, it was a mistake because since he has no competition, he doesn't to put so much effort into the product.

[Age of Orton]

I believe Vince's biggest mistake was allowing Triple H to have so much backstage swing,
If you look at what Triple H has done in the past it's clear the business is a little be messed up due to Triple H, and among them feuds have been hampered in case he lost his spot.

That said Triple H has done a lot of good stuff for the product as well, but I just believe him being in control somewhat kind of messed stuff up.

Back in 2002 once the Undisputed belt went to SD only Vince thought they could make the IC Title the RAW's version of the world title, but Triple H didn't want that so the World HW Title was brought in, and merged with the IC Title.
Triple H wouldn't put RVD over in a match which sucked as they had good chemistry in the ring but HHH should of made RVD look a million dollars and done the job for him, same with Kane as well.
Then came the 11 month title run, sure HBK held the belt for 3 weeks defending it once against RVD but apart from that HHH dominated the main event scene on RAW when Goldberg was brought in, HHH even went as far as to beat Goldberg when he was injured then to wait a month for Goldberg to beat him, when it made sense for HHH to do the job at Summer slam, then in 2004 when he made Benoit look awesome, along with HBK, he (HHH) gets himself in the main event of a PPV while the world champion is demoted to mid card? come on that just doesn't fly, then to beat Orton when Orton took the title off Benoit just made Benoit look weak and Orton to.
The last few years HHH seems to have mellowed out a little but last year he could of put the belt on Jeff Hardy rather then prolong the wait for Jeff, tho that could of been Vince doing it.

Also buying WCW, at the time I said to my buddies WWE will go down now as they're is no competition for them and they'll produce crap known we'll either watch it or quit watching wrestling.

Also back in 2002 when Vince decided to get rid of the Hardcore/European titles mergering them up with the IC Title, only to merger that up with the old WCW title that was hand given, I know these are petty mistakes I'm point out but IMO I believe they hurt the company form a fans perceptive, but in general I think to many people having stroke and not putting the younger talent over.

[Paradox100]

I think his biggest mistake, was losing touch with the fans. What the fans wanted, what the fans wanted to see. It seems like Vince doesn't give a damn about us long time viewers, he is going to the young crowd, which sucks. When I started watching ten years, it was the exact opposite. It was SEX, SEX, Violence, SEX! I do miss that time of wrestling, Triple H slipping a mickey into Stephanie's drink. Getting married to her, it was gold. Now, we see these gay feuds, that no one care's about.

Vince has lost the passion for the business, he wants to make his later years, as profitable as he can. Seriously, does he think people give a damn about Vickie? Yet they fire actual talent. It's sad, and disgusting. People said earlier in this post, Vince is just being Vince. I think this is Vince, not being Vince. Quite Frankly.

[DeadMan5000]

I can't stand it anymore. I find it really cheap that you can cash in the breifcase after a match. So unfair. I can't stand how people like CM Punk. I find him to be so boring and a shit champion. Al because of that briefcase, he has won 2 world titles! Does creative not believe that he could put a fair match on to win a title?

The MITB is such a cheap way to win a championship. Its meaningless.
Discuss

[The Sign Guy]

I diasagree. I think that money in the bank is a good way too push an upcoming star. It also adds a certain thing to the undercard at Mania', a sort of excitement, something that hasn't been seen at Mania since the TLC days. It also adds an element of surprise once a year. You never know when it's gonna happen, and when it does, it shocks you, but most importantly, entertains you, like it's meant to do. But I don't think a person should be able to win it twice, like C.M. Punk. I think it should be used to push an upcoming star each year, not give a person multiple oppurtunities at a title, wether they're a big draw, or you messed up booking them the first time. But overall, it's a good concept and usually exciting match.

[Coco The Monkey]

I think your disgust is exactly what they will be looking for when the man goes heel and goes heel strong. No doubt about it, they knew the kind of shit people would be saying when he cashed in like this again after he got booed at Wrestlemania. I think it's great that they're not waiting for this "fans turning on Punk" thing to go on too long and force their hand. They're making the right move here, and MITB was an important part of that. This is a great night and a great glimpse at one of the top heels of the next few years.

If you want to talk cheap title wins again and again, Edge is your man. The problem isn't as deep for Punk as the man is booked to look like he can overcome the odds for real. The lifetime MITB stuff has ruined Edge, but it hasn't ruined Punk yet.

[Milenko]

I can't stand it anymore. I find it really cheap that you can cash in the breifcase after a match. So unfair.
The rules state the holder can cash it in whenever he wants. Right after a grueling match is part of when ever
I can't stand how people like CM Punk. I find him to be so boring and a shit champion.
and i find him to be entertaining and a good champion. Yay i have an opinion too.
Al because of that briefcase, he has won 2 world titles! Does creative not believe that he could put a fair match on to win a title?
So has Edge but I don't hear you bitching about him. That briefcase launched his Main Event Career. Without it Edge would not be where he is today Also it would have been the start of RVD in the Main Event as well
The MITB is such a cheap way to win a championship. Its meaningless.
How is it meaningless? It has launched 3 superstars into the Main Event one of which is perhaps the best heel right now in the WWE, 2 of which have won multiple titles using the MITB case.


There is nothing wrong with MITB you're just complaining because CM punk is World Champion

[FTS]

I can't stand it anymore. I find it really cheap that you can cash in the breifcase after a match. So unfair. I can't stand how people like CM Punk. I find him to be so boring and a shit champion. Al because of that briefcase, he has won 2 world titles! Does creative not believe that he could put a fair match on to win a title?

The MITB is such a cheap way to win a championship. Its meaningless.
Discuss

Dude he retained the title in fair matches last year. He won title matches as champion.

MitB is better for a heel to win, but you can't have a heel win it every year.

In this instance, it is going to make a great heel turn. CM Punk has been winning me over slowly, and I think that as a heel, everything will come full circle for him.

Don't hate on MitB because you don't like Punk. Tell Edge that his titles are meaningless. He won the first ones through money in the bank, and has gone on to be a surefire hall of famer.

[Hacksaw Highway]

Plus, it provided us with two great swerves tonight. Nobody thought Jeff would win, but he did. Swerve one. Then, out of the blue, Punk wins the belt. Swerve two. It keeps fans on their toes, it's a great storyline way for somebody like Punk to win the belt.

[Tenta]

I can't stand it anymore. I find it really cheap that you can cash in the breifcase after a match.

It's part of the rules. If WWE had any bones with it, they would amend the rules. It really doesn't matter that much. The only complaint I have is that it gets a bit predictable, but even then, you aren't sure when someone will cash it, so it's not completely predictable.

Raise your hand if you expected Punk to cash it tonight....

Exactly as I thought.

So unfair. I can't stand how people like CM Punk. I find him to be so boring and a shit champion.

And when you possess the body of Vince McMahon and take over his mortal soul, then you can choose what happens in the WWE world. If McMahon fund Punk boring, he'd never get a shot in WWE.

Al because of that briefcase, he has won 2 world titles! Does creative not believe that he could put a fair match on to win a title?

Hi There!

http://www.wwe.com/content/media/images/Superstars/bio/10027306

Edge has won his titles through the same tool. Does that make him less of a champion in your eyes at all?



The MITB is such a cheap way to win a championship. Its meaningless.

The fact that a championship changes hands shows it's anything but meaningless. Get yourself a dictionary.



Discuss

........... Deadman? Is that you? Weren't you banished?

And if it's not Deadman..... You're going down the wrong road. You never want me to associate your posts with his.

[finneycom1]

I thought about posting this same thread tonight, but only with a little less disgust. Unfortunately, I didnt get to watch the PPV tonight, but I just read the results.

This is yet another subject where I am torn. On one hand you have the MITB rules which states that they can challenge for the strap at any time. Great concept that provides fans with the element of surprise and excitement that otherwise has been lacking recently. Also, WWE has gotten pretty creative with the way the MITB winners cash in the briefcase. Storyline-wise, I have been pretty satisfied with the surprise cash-ins.

On the other hand, I am not a huge fan of CM Punks and if they were to let him cash it in tonight, which they did, I would have preferred that Edge beat Hardy in the match. This would have set up a nice little feud between Punk and Edge that they missed out on last year when Punk beat Edge for the strap then Edge immediately went to Smackdown. Punk couldve beat Edge and they could have either had a feud or the other option being, let Edge go to Raw.

[Black Snow]

From a storyline purpose people have to remember what it takes to get the title shot. You have to beat seven other people in a ladder match and there's only one chance a year to earn said title shot. Heck, you also need to win a match just to get into the eight-man ladder match. There are a lot of hurdles just to get a title shot.

On top of that, it's now a known commodity that MitB is in play. It's up to a champion to make sure they have eyes in the back of their heads and that they have enough energy left after a title match to fend off the MitB winner if need be. It's not like an authority figure just handed out the title match on a whim. Edge and Jeff Hardy both knew that if they won the match there was always a chance Punk would appear.

Also, Punk had a match. He wasn't sitting in the back for three hours watching the PPV and sipping a Pepsi.

Like someone else mentioned, Punk did take the title from Edge last year in a cheap fashion. But in that very same night he defended the title against JBL and pinned him. He beat the man again at Summerslam. The way a person wins a title is one match. What they do after that is what defines a title reign and how good someone is as champion.

If Punk cheats every time he defends the title or ducks challengers then by all means label him a lame, cheap champion. But if he defends it whenever someone wants a shot like he did in his all too brief reign last year then it's totally unfair to label him like that.

There's a difference between not liking Punk and labeling him a weak champion. I don't like John Cena. I find him boring and dull both in the ring and on the mic. Yet I have no problem admitting that when he holds the title he's usually a strong champion.

[Hayles]

All around I think MITB has just lost its luster. I dont know about CM Punk, his last reign was just sad, and there are ideas of a heel turn. I think its about time that WWE had a MITB winner lose the match. As it is right now, everytime the MITB holders music hits, there is a 5 second shock factor. After that, its nothing but predictability.

[The Infant Finite]

Personally, I love the way it played out. Oddly enough, I laid this scenario out in a post a week o two ago, i'm kinda shocked to it come to fruition.
I think this was the perfect way to begin Punks heel turn and Jeff is definately the right guy for his first championship feud, as I have a feeling Edge will be holding the WWE title sooner rather than later, given what is going on with batista's injury.


As for your disdain for the MITB concept, I would strongly suggest you are in the vast minority there as it is nice to have SOME concept in today's era that isn't entirely predictable. I think creative may just learn there lesson from Punk's first title reign and propell him into a feud with a quality preformer, rather than the practically worthless outside of the microphone, JBL. Hardy, whether he leaves or not, will do a lot more good towards making Punk a credible champ, and his victory over Umaga didnt hurt either.


For the first time ever, I am more excited to see what transpires tuesday night rather than Monday. Even though I will still tune in tomorrow just to see where they go from Batista if indeed his injury is legitamite.
I hope they don't go the forseeable route of throwingthe title back onto orton as it will render what happened in they're match tonight irrelevant, but I kind of expect it. In the back of my mind, I'm hoping Edge sneaks his way in the door but I doubt it.

[Sparky]

I bet you enjoyed the hardcore championship. where they could challenge for it at anytime.

the money in the bank, is like a reward. your in a ladder match with 8 people, its hard enough to beat one person, let alone 7. It makes it interesting and gets people talking. how many PPV's, times on raw or smackdown did you think, "CM Punk is going to cash his case in"? i bet you it was more then once. It gets people thinking all the time. and its very rarly expected when it does happen.

I was joking around with my little brother, he was jumping up and down happy that Jeff had won, I said to him that there was still 8 minutes left, and that CM Punk was going to come out. but i didn't really think it was going to happen.

Keep the money in the bank case, it adds a bit of spice to the WWE.

[EGfan4life]

First of all. None of the matches were boring. Second of all. Shut your mouth.

There is nothing you can do to change whatever happens, so why bitch about it? Seriously dude, when Edge did it twice, I didn't hear everyone crying about how Edge stole the title. They started calling him the "Ultimate opportunist." So you need to gather your thoughts before you post a stupid thread like this.

Why don't you move out of your mom's basement already.

Anyways, CM Punk winning the title again is awesome!

[NateDaHack]

Meh. I always liked the MITB, it elevated Edge into main event status, it gave RVD his first world title win in WWE and now its elevating CM Punk into main event status. And this is the first time I've seen it used to help orchestrate a heel turn (I think )so now I'm really intrigued. I was a little dissappointed though. I was hoping for a decent world title reign for Hardy. But congratulations WWE. After about 3 months of pure shit, you have gained my interest once again.

[HATECHOIR]

I know were all watching "Sports entertainment" and its all pre-determined and far from reality but alot of the GREAT storylines were ones that imitate reality or come close the whole MIITB thing i mean truth be known if they could REALLY cash in the MIITB ANYtime...

We ALL know that on that night at the end of the Wrestlemania main event somebody would be getting there title taken, if i was writing it id throw a swerve on the BIGGEST night of the year..Wrestlemania, id have the MIITB winner that night cash that shit in right after the 2 main event participants entered the ring and make this hugely anticipated main event a surprise triple threat match with MIITB winner taking the title, you would have the shock of him cashing in minutes after he won, the suprise main event becoming a triple threat, and the WOW factor on RAW the next night when people who didnt get the ppv tune in and see said person holding the WWE title when he wasnt even supposed to be in the main event. Nothing makes a fan say "Damn i should have ordered that ppv more than that...lol!

Thats just how i would do it but im not an over-payed under-talented WWE writer so what do i know right?
:)

:undertaker2: where are u?

[Zeedeevel]

It seems that people in this thread want to compare Edge to Punk because they cashed it in the same way but honestly its not a fair thing to do. With Edge it fit his character as a heel to pick the bones after a match that had already taken place. With Punk however it makes zero sense to do that.(unless he is turning heel then only the first time didnt make sense) I believe that a big part of Punk's character is that the only addiction he needs is competition, well where is the competition in pinning someone after a beatdown or a ladder match. If you can remember there was only 1 other face that had MITB and he cashed it in by having a real match and being straight about it. Now before some Punk lover comes in to say how wrong I am or something, although I can't stand the guy, this is not an anti punk post. This is simply an opinion that if a heel wins it then cashing it in the cheap way is ok but if a face wins it then it should be a real match.

[x_JL_x]

Personally, I love the way it played out. Oddly enough, I laid this scenario out in a post a week o two ago, i'm kinda shocked to it come to fruition.
I knew i read that somewhere. When i was reading the results of the PPV i was like "man, somebody called that shit perfect!" lol

Anyways, to the original poster, let's cut the BS. The beef you have obviously isn't with the MITB, it's with Punk being champion. And for whatever reason you hate Punk. I say "whatever reason" cause for the life of me i can't understand that, Punk is awesome. And as he's seemingly about to turn heel, he'll be even more awesome. Can't wait really.

As for saying this cash in was cheap, i don't agree. I would say it's fairly obvious they're giving that heel turn now, and this is an excellent way to do it. Especially when he "cheated" such a crowd favorite as Hardy. I dont think Punk's first cash in was cheap either. I mean what was so cheap about it? Punk has had that character that likes to sometimes mock and poke fun at people. I thought it was very fitting that he cashed it in on Edge the same way Edge had won before. Giving him a taste of his own medicine (i think Edge is awesome too, so that's not a jab at him). As far as the whole "heels can cash in cheaply, but faces should have matches" argument: really? I mean think about it, nobody in their right mind would do it "proper". Heel or face. Think of it this way, if you had a guaranteed opportunity to compete for a "prize", and said "prize" was the most important thing in the world to you. You just HAVE to have it. When it comes that time to cash in, whether you're a good guy or bad guy, when are you really going to cash that in? You're going to do it when you feel you have the best opportunity to obtain this Holy Grail you have sought after (ie after they've got the shit kicked out of them).

I, for one, am psyched about Smackdown now. Punk as champion, seemingly going on a heel turn. The talent they have over there.

[Louie Lips]

I agree. MITB is a good concept to win the opportunity for a World Title Match, but not anytime you want. It is basically a ticket saying "attack the world champ after a tough match to win the title". The only honorable winner was RVD who chose a date for the match, and told his opponent beforehand, as opposed to running in after a grueling match.

[HBK-aholic]

I love how we're all acting as if there's some great prestige to the World Title belts. There isn't. They're props for a TV show, nothing more. How can that be 'cheap'? It already is meaningless. The MITB is a good idea, it's a bit of fun. The Champion will rarely be seen as credible, and as long as WWE keep that in mind there shouldn't be a problem. Punk is no where near the worst person to hold the title, and while I dislike the way he's booked as only being able to win it this way, there's worse that could happen.

[AndarielHalo]

The idea that MITB can be used to push an upcoming star is hilarious if it weren't so serious. The only "upcoming stars" it has pushes is EDGE like three times, and CM Punk twice, and CM Punk is way overdue for being an "upcoming star". His MITB cash-in was nothing but a failure worse than Rey Mysterio's title run. And now you're glad to see him do it AGAIN?

The only way I'll believe MITB can push new upcomign stars is if friggin FINLAY or SHELTON BENJAMIN or some midcarder-for-life wins it, cashes it in, and wins the title for a solidly booked, lengthy reign. The storyline would be excellent in the hands of anyone but a WWE or TNA writer---new guy is championship material, all the big boys welcome him to their club... then proceed to try to take the title from him in matches. He barely gets away with his skill and wit and luck, winning matches against established superstars in such a way that the established superstar still looks strong, but is still clearly defeated. The midcard champion starts experiencing a sort of "culture shock" in his newfound position as main event player that everyone wants to kill (in the ring). Managers start lobbying to manage him, and he has to use his wits to skirt the exploiters and those who are working with his foes to try to weaken him, he has to resist the flirtations of divas who are hired to slow him down and such, that sort of thing.

The ultimate irony and tragedy would be that this champion would lose his championship to ANOTHER money in the bank winner, perhaps in exactly the same scenario as he won it first.


Another fun idea would be a MITB backfire. Someone cashes in their money in the bank, and LOSES. That would really legitimize the MITB as something that is never a guarantee, and that cashing it in at the end of matches to steal the title is never foolproof.

Thus far, I think Rob Van Dam's cash-in was one of the best, for the reasons that 1) He gave his challenger ample time beforehand to prepare, 2) He was a midcarder-for-life with seemingly absolutely no shot anywhere near the WWE main event scene, 3) He beat SUPERMAN Cena during the era of his "exalted one" status, 4) They nearly screwed his win up with Edge interfering, but Cena STILL fought back and Rob Van Dam still beat him himself (but no one complained when Goldberg interfered with Eddie Guerrero's first WWE championship win, did they?)



Also, I really think that Star Trek: The Voyage Home was one of the best Star Trek movies. It really has no war in it, nor any major dramatic conflicts that don't have humor in it, but it's still just great, somehow. Far better than that porn movie "This Ain't Star Trek"

[Lord Sidious]

I can't stand it anymore. I find it really cheap that you can cash in the breifcase after a match. So unfair. I can't stand how people like CM Punk. I find him to be so boring and a shit champion. Al because of that briefcase, he has won 2 world titles! Does creative not believe that he could put a fair match on to win a title?

The MITB is such a cheap way to win a championship. Its meaningless.
Discuss

I am actually in full agreement with you. Yeah, it's done for "shock value" for whenever the person cashes it in ... but the "shock value" of it all has been somewhat diminished since it obviously now has become a guarantee that whoever wins the briefcase will be the next champion. They have never once had the winner of the briefcase actually lose the match.

But if WWE wants to continue its realistic kick that it has been on for the past couple years, and they want to continue doing MITB, then they really need to redo the program so that a specific date is announced for the cash-in. Then, as mentioned, actually have the person lose once in a while, as well.

If WWE wants to now present its product as "realistic", then they need to do just that.

[NMcQ]

rite...money in the bank is a great match....but no1 should win it 2 years in a row....someone else should have won it at wrestlemania....like christian or kofi kingston...someone who is actually entertaining....

CM PUNK IS SO BORIN AND USELESS....WWE'S WORST DECISION YET

[StInGeR-HBK]

The rules state the holder can cash it in whenever he wants. Right after a grueling match is part of when ever

and i find him to be entertaining and a good champion. Yay i have an opinion too.

So has Edge but I don't hear you bitching about him. That briefcase launched his Main Event Career. Without it Edge would not be where he is today Also it would have been the start of RVD in the Main Event as well

How is it meaningless? It has launched 3 superstars into the Main Event one of which is perhaps the best heel right now in the WWE, 2 of which have won multiple titles using the MITB case.


There is nothing wrong with MITB you're just complaining because CM punk is World Champion

LMAO!!! I have to agree with this guy 100%! It's not about the MITB it's about CM Punk. Cuz he's just doin exactly what Edge did but I don't hear any complains so far. It's a perfect way to launch CM Punk back into the main event scene and turn Punk heel. I really do hope that WWE uses this to really push Punk. I really haven't seen Punk as a heel like a lot of the rest of the guys here but just from the way people describe him, I can't wait to see it. I absolutely love Punk and from what I've seen, I think he can be a great champion and really push this company into the future!

[Blade]

I can't stand it anymore.


What exactly can't you stand? The excitement of when the case holder decides to cash in? Having a fresh champion? I don't get it.


I find it really cheap that you can cash in the breifcase after a match.


It's genius, actually. I feel it's a kayfabe situation where Punk didn't want to wait, and he'd have plenty of time to prove himself that he doesn't just get cheap wins when he's champ.


So unfair.


Not really. Punk had a match earlier than night to remember? Remember when he got beaten up by Umaga for ten minutes, hmm? Remember that?
And it's not Punk's fault that Hardy kicks the shit out of himself as well as his opponent to win the match.


I can't stand how people like CM Punk. I find him to be so boring and a shit champion.


I find him very entertaining. His strap match was superbly executed. And we'll see what he's like as a champion when creative decide to book him properly.




Al because of that briefcase, he has won 2 world titles! Does creative not believe that he could put a fair match on to win a title?


Since when does winning the title make you a credible champion?
You become a credible champion when you can hang on to the belt.


The MITB is such a cheap way to win a championship.


It's an exciting way to win the championship. It gives people great a great memory and gives that extra "bang for your buck" when you buy a PPV.



Its meaningless.


Money in the Bank would only be meaningless if the world titles were meaningless. But they're not, so it's not.



Discuss

I believe I just discussed the hell out of it. Feel free to write a rebuttal.

[ipswichicon80]

I feel that the next winner of MITB should cash in after the main event at that years mania!Think about it give to to someone like Carlito or John Morrison and you give them the experience of a main event slot at mania but your not releying on them to sell PPV buys, shock the fans and instantly create a headliner! Any thoughts people?

[The D-Man]

I am actually in full agreement with you. Yeah, it's done for "shock value" for whenever the person cashes it in ... but the "shock value" of it all has been somewhat diminished since it obviously now has become a guarantee that whoever wins the briefcase will be the next champion. They have never once had the winner of the briefcase actually lose the match.

But if WWE wants to continue its realistic kick that it has been on for the past couple years, and they want to continue doing MITB, then they really need to redo the program so that a specific date is announced for the cash-in. Then, as mentioned, actually have the person lose once in a while, as well.

If WWE wants to now present its product as "realistic", then they need to do just that.

Sidious, with all due respect because you're a killer poster, I couldn't disagree with you more.

Over and over and over again the professional wrestling audience has been begging for surprises and unpredictability. Well, now that we have it, you're all STILL complaining. The MITB ladder match (IMO) has been the most innovative, exciting, and intriguing way to entertain all of the fans for MANY reasons...

It all begins with an exciting, violent, spot-happy, fan-craved gimmick match at the biggest show of the year... Wrestlemania.
The WWE answered all of your calls for more ladder matches. Not only did they answer it, but they threw 6 guys into it! And, by throwing 6 guys into it, this reduces the chance that some of your favorite upcoming stars will get injured while providing you with non-stop excitement.

It keeps the wrestling fans on their toes.
We've seen that a cash-in can happen on ANY show. So far, it's happened on Smackdown, Raw, AND a PPV. For everyone that can't stand when storylines leak on the internet (myself included), we can all still be surprised when a cash-in occurs because it doesn't need to be done with a week in advance. Hell, if Vince wants someone to cash in the MITB at the last minute, it wouldn't take many changes in the production of his show to put it together, thereby eliminating the chance of an internet leak. Also, when all of you NEVER thought Jeff Hardy would win the title last night because of his contract disputes, he did. Technically, he's a two-time champion now LOL!! And, not only were you surprised when he won, but I'm sure most of your hearts skipped a beat when Punk's music hit and he charged the ring. How much more unpredictability do you need?!?

It elevates new stars.
Edge (arguably) would be NOTHING without his MITB cash-in against the Undertaker on Smackdown. CM Punk's popularity jumped about 20 notches when he cashed in against Edge on Raw and now he just won it from Jeff Hardy. And this is only the THIRD year that the MITB match has existed! There are many other stars that can be built and elevated in the snap of a finger just by winning the MITB batch at Wrestlemania. It brings SO MUCH importance to the match and gives all of you yet another reason why you should purchase the PPV each year!

It provides compelling storylines.
I think we just learned about this last night. This could potantially be a BIG heel turn for CM Punk. And none of you saw it coming. And I'm willing to bet that if his heel status sticks, he's going to be hated as much as Edge. Most of the time, it takes the WWE MONTHS to heel turn a babyface of Punk's caliber. By utilizing the MITB ladder match, they did it in ONE NIGHT!


Now, many of you think the winner of the MITB match is a sure-fire future title holder and you have all very good reasoning to think that way. But remember, this is only the FIFTH year this has been running. Despite what most of you think, the WWE isn't stupid. I'm sure they will find a way to change this up down the road.

Edit: Thanks to Chihawks Rock for pointing out my mistake about how many years MITB has been running!

[AndarielHalo]

It keeps the wrestling fans on their toes.


No it doesn't. It basically makes us anticipate it any time a world champion has been beaten up in the ring, be it after a main event match, or in the case of Edge, when he randomly appears on Raw for no reason, then gets obliternihilated by Batista.


It elevates new stars.

Edge is not "new". And at this point in time, neither is CM Punk. The first time he did, yes. But a repeat of last year is just too soon. Rob Van Dam was already an established star, but a midcarder-for-life in the WWE.


It provides compelling storylines.

You're right; that whole dealy of JBL questioning whether CM Punk was a fluke champion---and then CM Punk really turning out to be a fluke champion---that was so completely compelling and totally not the complete opposite of compelling. Oh wait, yes it was! It was a burial the likes not seen since the last burial. And while Edge vs Cena was fun the first few times, Edge vs Cena for the second year in a row, eighth match in a row, ceased to be "compelling".


This could potantially be a BIG heel turn for CM Punk

Since I didn't see the PPV, I can't tell, but nothing about its execution in sound seems to me very heelish. Rob Van Dam didn't turn heel when he cashed on John Cena. It's not like Punk came out with Vince McMahon to help him, or smashed Jeff Hardy half dead with all manner of weapons. I do not forsee a heel turn from this.

[CH David]

Now, many of you think the winner of the MITB match is a sure-fire future title holder and you have all very good reasoning to think that way. But remember, this is only the THIRD year this has been running. Despite what most of you think, the WWE isn't stupid. I'm sure they will find a way to change this up down the road.

D-Man, I hate to be a prick, because I am still kind of new and I think you are a very good poster, and I know you are trying to prove a point. But it has been going for 5 years. I think what you may have been trying to hit on was the 8 man MiTB has gone for three years.

Anyway, to the poster of this thread, MiTB is exciting, and a way to keep the guy who wins it in a certain light. Every time you see the winner, you wonder if he is going to attack the champ and take the title. Shock value yes, but it did wonders for Edge's career, he is one of the best heels in the company, or was, i don't know if he is now going to be a tweener or face or what.

When it comes to Punk, I see where everyone was coming with the complaints of "What the hell, he won two years in a row? Ahh go to hell Punk, Christian or Morrison should have won it" and I wouldn't have minded seeing either of those two win as well. Punk is a very entertaining guy, whether it be his promos from indy's as WWE hasn't let him talk a whole lot lately, or in his matches. He is a very consistent guy in the ring, and if this truly does turn to a heel turn and feud with Hardy, it could push Punk that much further into the sky.

As for Punk winning two years in a row, I have a theory, and it may be either really good, or it may be crap. Throughout WZ I haven't seen people with this idea, so it is a new theory or it is just a coincidence. BUT, most of us know that Jeff was supposed to win MiTB last year, but he got suspended and all that stuff. Punk was the guy they felt could be over with the people, so they gave it to him. Then they had the shock value of taking the title from Edge, and then Creative gave him a shit run and he sank. So my theory is that they realized they screwed up with Punk, and either he was meant to win this year or they gave it to him for having screwed him. Some of you may think, oh but he was IC champ and a tag champ too. Big deal, they didn't really do anything other than make Punk a Triple Crown champ in a year span. I barely remember his IC run, and I don't even remember his tag title run. So they gave it to him maybe thinking we screwed him and we are going to try and give him a proper run, or maybe Creative was just too lazy to change who would win this years MiTB. Maybe he is finally going to turn heel, as he is much better that way. Just my 2 cents.

[IC25]

No it doesn't. It basically makes us anticipate it any time a world champion has been beaten up in the ring, be it after a main event match, or in the case of Edge, when he randomly appears on Raw for no reason, then gets obliternihilated by Batista.

That still acts as a surprise. It absolutely keeps people on their toes. When I was at the Smackdown show @ MSG a few weeks back and Punk beat Edge (clean) in a non-title match, and then teased the cash-in, MSG went absolutely WILD.

Edge is not "new". And at this point in time, neither is CM Punk. The first time he did, yes. But a repeat of last year is just too soon. Rob Van Dam was already an established star, but a midcarder-for-life in the WWE.

Edge was a new champion when he won his first MITB. So was Punk. In both cases (no pun intended) a new star was created with the MITB matches. Kennedy would have been too had he not blown it.

You're right; that whole dealy of JBL questioning whether CM Punk was a fluke champion---and then CM Punk really turning out to be a fluke champion---that was so completely compelling and totally not the complete opposite of compelling. Oh wait, yes it was! It was a burial the likes not seen since the last burial. And while Edge vs Cena was fun the first few times, Edge vs Cena for the second year in a row, eighth match in a row, ceased to be "compelling".

Which is why MITB is so important - it makes these matches more compelling. That's also why the draft is in place.

Also, why do I need to remind people that CM Punk is also a former ECW World Champion, and his title reign on ECW was damn sure no fluke. He's a 3-time World Champion.

Since I didn't see the PPV, I can't tell, but nothing about its execution in sound seems to me very heelish. Rob Van Dam didn't turn heel when he cashed on John Cena. It's not like Punk came out with Vince McMahon to help him, or smashed Jeff Hardy half dead with all manner of weapons. I do not forsee a heel turn from this.

AWESOME. I love that these hardlined opinions are coming from someone who didn't even watch the PPV.

RVD didn't come off as a heel when he cashed in on Cena because he cashed it in face to face and gave Cena a month's notice.

Punk was being boo'ed by half the crowd last night because they wanted it to be Hardy's moment, and Punk took that away from them.

[ROHDude]

All around I think MITB has just lost its luster. I dont know about CM Punk, his last reign was just sad, and there are ideas of a heel turn. I think its about time that WWE had a MITB winner lose the match. As it is right now, everytime the MITB holders music hits, there is a 5 second shock factor. After that, its nothing but predictability.


The only way someone will lose the MITB title shot is if the Champion gets a flash rollup pin like Hardy attempted last night.

You can cash in the MITB anytime you want, so it makes way too much sense to cash it in after the champions been through a grueling match, so odds are that's how it will always be.

[The D-Man]

No it doesn't. It basically makes us anticipate it any time a world champion has been beaten up in the ring, be it after a main event match, or in the case of Edge, when he randomly appears on Raw for no reason, then gets obliternihilated by Batista.

So when you're watching Raw, SD, ECW, or a PPV and you see a compelling match and are sucked into it's result, you aren't shocked when the MITB winner comes out to throw a wrench in the gears? If not, then I guess everyone is entertained by different things and has their own opinion.

Edge is not "new". And at this point in time, neither is CM Punk. The first time he did, yes. But a repeat of last year is just too soon. Rob Van Dam was already an established star, but a midcarder-for-life in the WWE.

Edge isn't new now, but he was a NEW CHAMPION when he won it the first time, setting up a feud with the Undertaker that lasted on and off for over a year. And you're right about CM Punk, but I'm sure that will all change REALLY soon. As for RVD, he would've been a lot more if his personal problems and unreliability hadn't held him back.[/QUOTE]

You're right; that whole dealy of JBL questioning whether CM Punk was a fluke champion---and then CM Punk really turning out to be a fluke champion---that was so completely compelling and totally not the complete opposite of compelling. Oh wait, yes it was! It was a burial the likes not seen since the last burial. And while Edge vs Cena was fun the first few times, Edge vs Cena for the second year in a row, eighth match in a row, ceased to be "compelling".

Where I agree with your opinion about the Cena/Edge feud, I have to disagree about CM Punk. What made him a fluke champion? In reality, he never actually LOST the title. So your statement doesn't hold water. And the storyline with JBL entertained me, so until your opinion makes a difference, you have no leg to stand on when making sarcastic statements like that to me.

Since I didn't see the PPV, I can't tell, but nothing about its execution in sound seems to me very heelish.

The guy took out one of the biggest babyfaces in the company on the NIGHT THAT HE WON THE TITLE. That is bound to piss a few little kiddies off...

Rob Van Dam didn't turn heel when he cashed on John Cena. It's not like Punk came out with Vince McMahon to help him, or smashed Jeff Hardy half dead with all manner of weapons. I do not forsee a heel turn from this.

It was a PPV that was planned WAY in advance. And Cena was borderline heel at the time. Once again, stupid statement.

[The D-Man]

D-Man, I hate to be a prick, because I am still kind of new and I think you are a very good poster, and I know you are trying to prove a point. But it has been going for 5 years. I think what you may have been trying to hit on was the 8 man MiTB has gone for three years.

No offense taken. Good call... I typed that so fast and messed up big time :)

I was only thinking about Edge and CM Punk's runs as MITB winners, but I also forgot about RVD, who made a legitimate challenge for the title, and Mr. Kennedy who later on lost the briefcase to Edge.

My bad!!

[Chill]

I like the cash in aspect of the MITB, I think the match itself is getting a bit stale now but the concept of the winner being able to cash in any time up to a year is brilliant imo.

I love to see how shocked the live audience is when a cash in happens, when Edge did it to Cena the crowd adored it, and look what winning MITB has done for Edge, the guy hasn't looked back to the mid card since. Although, it would be nice to see someone cash in and not become champion, that way the shock value would remain in tact.

Nevertheless, when Punk cashed in I certainly wasn't expecting it and I'm not so sure what the audience thought but it was a nice suprise and it created the excitement that a lot of people on here complain is missing! I wonder if people will say MITB is such a joke if we get another star the calibre of Edge out of CM Punk?

[AndarielHalo]

What made him a fluke champion?

The fluke part being that he wasn't exactly booked to look very strong or worthy against his opponents. Just like his ECW title reign was marked by being squashed by Mark Henry and Big Daddy V, his World title reign was marked by being made to look like a goober.


Then he didn't even lose his championship, but just got backstage jumped by the Stooges (who got regularly asswhomped by SHANE MCMAHON months later) and lost his title without even competing for it. That sounds like a goober to me. This being the same CM Punk who SHOCKED us by RETAINING the ROH Championship on his LAST DAY in ROH, although he got jumped by Christopher Daniels and had it stolen from him, he still looked a hell of a lot stronger as ROH Champion than World Heavyweight Champion.


Not a fanboy "ROH IS BETTAR DEN WWE" thing---just remarking that the WWE booking of him as world champion was terrible and lackluster.


he never actually LOST the title


No, they just took it from him like a goober with the lame excuse of "CODY RHODES AN TED DIBIASE BEAT ME UP" without even letting him defend it or even look like a credible defender.

That is bound to piss a few little kiddies off...

And just because people booed CM Punk cashing on hardy doesn't make him instantly a heel. People boo Cena a whole lot---they booed him mercilessly at Wrestlemania 23. And when Stone Cold Steve Austin went heel at Wrestlemania X7, people were still cheering wildly for him.




It was a PPV that was planned WAY in advance. And Cena was borderline heel at the time.


"Borderline heel"? I may not remember much of those days, but I do remember he wasn't borderline anything---he was full-fledged face. That "borderline heel" bs was the excuse the WWE made up for having people boo him so often---because he was horrifying overexposed.

And quite frankly, I also agree that it wasn't really fair to compare with Cena competing against an ECW superstar at an ECW event, with people unanimously anti-Cena, with a sign saying "If Cena Wins, We Riot", and thinking he could win. But considering how often he beat opponents, I wouldn't put it past the WWE to have Cena beat RVD anyway.


you aren't shocked when the MITB winner comes out to throw a wrench in the gears?


When it happens once, yes. When it happens four or five times, maybe a little. When it happens four or five times, and has been teased to happen for almost an entire month, only to be interrupted by random BS that in reality shouldn't have even been an impediment worth waiting an ENTIRE WEEK to put off and try again, then absolutely NOT.

[sTyLnK]

I was actually pretty surprised when Punk came out. If Edge had won and Punk came out the crowd would have gone NUTS, but because Hardy won it really was a mixed reaction from the crowd. Sounds like Punk might turn heel for a while and if that's the case I welcome it. Change is good. A lot of people might be ticked off about the MITB idea, but it's supposed to be unexpected and it just adds more overall.

[The D-Man]

The fluke part being that he wasn't exactly booked to look very strong or worthy against his opponents. Just like his ECW title reign was marked by being squashed by Mark Henry and Big Daddy V, his World title reign was marked by being made to look like a goober. Then he didn't even lose his championship, but just got backstage jumped by the Stooges (who got regularly asswhomped by SHANE MCMAHON months later) and lost his title without even competing for it. That sounds like a goober to me.

Then what you're saying is he was a WEAK champion and not a FLUKE champion, right? Weak = "Goober"?? Ok then. Now I'm clear because the wrong terms were clearly used there.

This being the same CM Punk who SHOCKED us by RETAINING the ROH Championship on his LAST DAY in ROH, although he got jumped by Christopher Daniels and had it stolen from him, he still looked a hell of a lot stronger as ROH Champion than World Heavyweight Champion.

This has no bearing on anything.

Not a fanboy "ROH IS BETTAR DEN WWE" thing---just remarking that the WWE booking of him as world champion was terrible and lackluster.

Once again, YOUR opinion. I think the WWE did a GREAT job of booking Punk as a champion. He got two world titles in ONE YEAR. And just to keep it legitimate they booked him as more of a babyface opportunist (to contradict Edge's heel opportunist) that wasn't 100% ready to carry the title, and yet they kept him strong in losing it. What' so bad about that?

And just because people booed CM Punk cashing on hardy doesn't make him instantly a heel. People boo Cena a whole lot---they booed him mercilessly at Wrestlemania 23. And when Stone Cold Steve Austin went heel at Wrestlemania X7, people were still cheering wildly for him.

But Cena didn't fuck over one of the top babyfaces of the company on live TV just seconds after he won a title. BIG difference there.

*EDIT* Well, since you edited most of your previous post I guess most of what I just wrote may seem invalid and I don't feel like going back and revising it.

[Mustang Sally]

I have no problem with the concept of MITB. There is so little that is new and original in the world of wrestling that I certainly wouldn't put down a novel idea like this one.

On one hand, though, it seems like a better vehicle for a heel to get a title shot than a face. The idea of a guy who hasn't fought that night getting a surprise title opportunity against an exhausted champion doesn't really appeal to me, but it makes sense when a heel such as Edge turns the trick. But if a heel can do it, then a face has to have the same privilege, right?

That said, I wish Punk hadn't gotten a second chance at it. When he won the briefcase, I was hoping that one of two things would happen:

1) He would take his second chance against a champion who hadn't wrestled that night, giving the guy ample notice so that a victory by Punk would seem more equitable and genuine.

Or....

2) Punk would come in against a victorious, but exhausted Jeff Hardy...... and lose the match, which would send Jeff's stock soaring for having won twice in one night.


I have nothing against C.M. Punk, but I hope that this title reign is the last one he will win through MITB.

[Sasori]

Well the MITB is meant to elevate mid-carders to the main event, or give a main eventer a shot to prove them selves and get a title shot. The MITB did SO much for Edge! If there was no MITB we wouldn't have seen The Rated 'R' Super-star rise to glory. Or R.V.D. triumph his way to 2 world championships the ECW and WWE titles! But I do agree with one thing, CM Punk is going no where with these shitty title wins of MITB.

P.S. CM Punk is a 3 time world champ, should be 4 but 3. (1x ECW HWC, 2x WWE WHC [current], 1x ROH world champ IT SHOULD COUNT!)

[RVDgurl]

I have to say that I don't really have an opinion yet of the MITB as of right now. I have to wait and see how things play out. I think the idea of MITB is a great one- give a great push to someone who will be entering the main event scene. The past winners of MITB have been solid choices (yes, even Kennedy) and all have gone on to success after their MITB win.

The back to back MITB wins of CM Punk definately threw me for a loop this year. It was unexpected. And the curveballs keep on coming after CM Punk's win at Extreme Rulz last night. I absolutely expected Punk to be the first MITB winner to lose the match in which he cashes it in.

Well, Punk is a back to back MITB winner and he did successfully cash it in to win a world title. This is where things could go very wrong or very right. After listening to the reaction from the crowd last night, a heel change could be a huge benefit for Punk. And it could save the reputation of MITB.

[Twist]

I still support the concept of the MiTB, but the execution has gotten lazy, at best.

The last three cash-ins have been similar, nearly identical, and I know personally, I've been waiting for the cash in after every PPV since 'Mania, so I wasn't that drastically surprised.

The concept stays, giving one superstar a chance to cash it in, but they need to expand their horizons in execution.

[mcflyboy]

In response to paradox100's post...first I disagree with his lauding of "sex" 10 years ago. It was lame and immature and I don't miss it, and I don't think it was a mistake to tone it down.

But I'm really confused by this:

When I started watching ten years, it was the exact opposite. It was SEX, SEX, Violence, SEX!

Um ok, to each their own. But your current age is 14? So you started watching when you were 4, and back then you loved the product because of its high content of sex?

I must have been a late bloomer or something, because I don't remember anything I saw on television when I was 4, nor do I recall being a sex-crazed hornball at 4.

[Lord Sidious]

In response to paradox100's post...first I disagree with his lauding of "sex" 10 years ago. It was lame and immature and I don't miss it, and I don't think it was a mistake to tone it down.

If you thought that this was "lame and immature", why don't you go support something like Ring of Honor, or go watch UFC? It is clear that more people embraced the version of the company when it was sex and violence ... as opposed to this version of the company, where it pretends it is actually a real sport, and not entertaining in the slightest.




But I'm really confused by this:



Um ok, to each their own. But your current age is 14? So you started watching when you were 4, and back then you loved the product because of its high content of sex?

I must have been a late bloomer or something, because I don't remember anything I saw on television when I was 4, nor do I recall being a sex-crazed hornball at 4.

You're confused by that? Let me help you out. Pssst, 14 probably isn't his real age. If you look around, quite a few people aren't using their real ages on this forum.

[Ghostboy259]

Any fan of wrestling, and even the wrestlers themselves know that if you want to make it big in Wrestling, the WWE is where its at. Yet we see things like:

Breaking News: WWE Releases Umaga
Breaking News: WWE Releases Mr. Kennedy

And so on...

So what?

That's it?

Just because of some random reason when somone is on the top of their game, fire them?
Is WWE trying to get people to hate him?
2 guys who were about to get a push, and now their gone.
It may not seem like much now, but wait till it hits the bigger names.
Like Kane, or Swagger, or even Rey Mysterio after he drops the mask.

True or False? The WWE is the most horrible wrestling organization to work in?

[SavageTaker]

So you want us to tell you whether the WWE is the most horrible promotion to work for even though most of us on these forums have never even worked for them at anytime in the times we have been living human beings?

I have never worked for the WWE and I don't know whether I will ever work for them but my guess is that the WWE is a great company to work for. Yes there will probably be some bumps in the road but it will still be a great company to work for especially if you compare it to the way it was in the 80's and 90's to today. Today you have a great drug testing policy that has already saved the life of some of their performers. You also get to travel the entire world. Do you know how awesome it would be to get to go to places some people can only dream of going to? Another thing is that they pay you pretty good and if your smart you will be secured for life with their pay. Another 2 things are you get to meet great people and you do what you love. If you really love wrestling then you will think it is a great company to work for as you would be wrestling for a couple of times a week.

So to answer your question, No the WWE probably isn't a horrible company and I think it would be awesome to work for the.

[RendarSelin]

I don't think WWE is a terrible company to work for. As fans, we only see from the outside in, mainly judging everything we base our opinions on from internet "sources". WWE made two releases based on their judgments and knowledge. Perhaps it was wellness violations, perhaps due to violating some rules in regards to matches, we'll never know for sure. However, many companies are laying off employees left and right. Does this make any of those companies terrible to work for? Unfortunately in the business world, layoffs and firings occur, and without the inside knowledge, we're just outsiders judging decisions without knowing all the facts.

[jokeboy624]

I have to agree with ST, this is a pretty impossible question to answer for most people on this forum as we haven't worked for the company. I imagine it's a pretty good company to work for. They offer things other companies don't, such as paying rehab for current and former employees. It's true that wrestling is an unique business, but I've never heard of another company offering rehab to former employees.

It seems like you're basing the work conditions on the fact that Kennedy and Umaga were released. I don't know what the backstage going-ons are in the WWE, but it is possible that these decisions were made for very valid reasons. People have postulated that Kennedy was released because he was a danger to others. That sounds like a company looking out for its employees, which is what I'd want in an employer.

Plus your speculation that Swagger, Mysterio or Kane were next on the block is ridiculous, even if you were just throwing names out there. Of course I will eat my words if they do get released for whatever reason.

[sTyLnK]

Everyone has a personal opinion on the WWE and you have to have worked for the company to know for sure. We don't work in the company so I really don't think many of the reports we read are all that accurate. Unless you hear from the people themselves you have to take everything with a grain of salt.

[High_Roller74]

Kennedy was let go because he was an injury risk, to himself, and others. We've yet to hear the reason behind Umaga, maybe he failed a Wellness Test, maybe he wanted to be released?

To answer your question.....the answer is False. Outside of the hectic travel schedule, I bet you take a poll of every wrestler out there who has worked for WWE, and I bet the overwhelming majority would call it an amazing company to work for. And I'm sure the positives working there, would out weigh the negatives tremendously.

[Hacksaw Highway]

I don't know anything about the backstage working sof WWE, but I know it's better than 'wrestling' in front of 100 people, getting weed whackered in CZW JCW or other joke promotions.

[Paradox100]

In response to paradox100's post...first I disagree with his lauding of "sex" 10 years ago. It was lame and immature and I don't miss it, and I don't think it was a mistake to tone it down.

But I'm really confused by this:



Um ok, to each their own. But your current age is 14? So you started watching when you were 4, and back then you loved the product because of its high content of sex?

I must have been a late bloomer or something, because I don't remember anything I saw on television when I was 4, nor do I recall being a sex-crazed hornball at 4.

No, I'm not saying I understood the Sex. But you saw, and heard so much. I don't remember the era much, but remember going to smackdown, and seeing godfather and the hos. Or when Triple H had Trish bent over and looked like they were screwing and Steph walked in. Did I understand it then? no. Do I look back and think "Wow, they pushed limits" yes.

[Andres_cena]

I'd say its just what fired people say to get to the spotlight and bring popularity on their own. WWE is by far the best know wrestling promotion world wide so working there assure you work in other indy/wrestling organizations. Example super crazy, he wasn't a big deal on the wwe yet he has many house shows on different independent organizations in mexico now and im pretty sure he's being paid well, same goes for lance cade, lashley, and pretty much any ex-wwe. WWE boosts your popularity and wheter or not the backstage work feeling is good or not, its the best paid, known, and safest industry to work at since the wwe will limit you not to get injured as much as they can + You get to travel a lot cause of all the over sea tours and you get to know the world. I doubt working in the wwe is worse than working on any of the other companies cause of that.

[Tenta]

Any fan of wrestling, and even the wrestlers themselves know that if you want to make it big in Wrestling, the WWE is where its at.

And that's exactly why it's not the worst place to work. Because it's the big show, and when you've reached the WWE, you have the skills to make it anywhere. Vince has the faith to hire you. It's up to you at that point to make the most of it.


Yet we see things like:

Ok.... I think where we're going, and if we're about to go into rantings about wrestlers getting released, then this is a massive overreaction. Lest we forget that less than two months ago, TNA let go of Sonjay Dutt, Lance Hoyt, and another wrestler (can't remember at this moment). People get released. Get over it.

Breaking News: WWE Releases Umaga

I'm pretty sure that there's more details to come out regarding this. Let's wait until all the facts are out.

Breaking News: WWE Releases Mr. Kennedy

I'm sorry, but when you injure wrestlers, and haven't done much in the business, you're going to get cut. That, and his own injury issues have led to his firing. And the whole Randy Orton situation is not the first time we've heard of Kennedy injuring someone. Remember that he was responsible for (ironically) Umaga's second injury.

And so on...

So what?

That's it?

Just because of some random reason when somone is on the top of their game, fire them?
Is WWE trying to get people to hate him?
2 guys who were about to get a push, and now their gone.
It may not seem like much now, but wait till it hits the bigger names.
Like Kane, or Swagger, or even Rey Mysterio after he drops the mask.

True or False? The WWE is the most horrible wrestling organization to work in?


Ok, I'm just going to lump this into one matter: The WWE lets people go. So does every other promotion in America. The WWE isn't the only promotion to release wrestlers. The WWE has their reasons for hiring and firing people, and for what it's worth, they seem to have a time tested protocol. I think I'm going to trust their judgement.

[Slyfox696]

I'm sure that the WWE is far from a good place to work in, as far as most jobs go. There are very few benefits, you can be fired on a whim, the travel sucks, and it takes years off your life.

But, it also pays very good money to the best, you get to perform in front of thousands of people 3-4 times a week, and you're offered opportunities to do things and see places that you would never get to experience otherwise.


But, I wouldn't say it's a terrible place to be, just because people who serve no purpose get fired.

[Henry Hill]

this is quite a jump of the gun. I was actually at a house show here where i live and my friends and I did our best to get as close to the front as we could, so we found a roped off section right behind where the sound guy was working. He was gracious and talked to us and let us know that he would vouch for us as long as we didn't make asses of ourselves. So what does this have to do with the thread? well it was right after the wwe changed their dress code so that all wwe employees had to wear the collared shirts and all that garbage. since we got to sit there we heard him giving fellow employees a hard time about not changing over in a joking manner, but overall every agent, all the ring crew that came by us, and everyone who wasn't an in character performer was very happy and upbeat. the sound guy we sat behind was nice enough to talk to us and tell us that the pay was beyond fantastic, and that it was a great job. you can say he was toeing the company line, but why lie to a bunch of nerdy kids? i mean whos gonna believe whats written on the internet anyway?

[daniel_4tw]

I'm all for the current concept, but they need to book it better.

After a ladder match? Really? CM Punk already wrestled, really?

It would have been perfect, absolutely perfect, if everything panned out, Hardy kicked out of the GTS, as he did, but then got the rollup for the 3.

CM Punk would have gotten his much needed heel turn, Jeff would have the title, and would've made good TV.

[bigbootydaddyV]

how is it that the winner of money in the bank has yet to use it to headline wrestlemania...being champ is one thing, but winning it at the biggest event is another, or at least competing at the highest level is something. RVD was the only winner to even use it for a future date and it was perfect at one night stand given RVD's history with ECW, but i think next years winner should seriously use it to get a shot at WM

[Henry Hill]

how is it that the winner of money in the bank has yet to use it to headline wrestlemania...being champ is one thing, but winning it at the biggest event is another, or at least competing at the highest level is something. RVD was the only winner to even use it for a future date and it was perfect at one night stand given RVD's history with ECW, but i think next years winner should seriously use it to get a shot at WM


Edge totally wrestled the Undertaker in the last match at Wrestle Mania 24 dude. technically it wasn't his mitb shot, but mitb successfully elevated him to main event status. RVD would've done a lot better but he uh, well, needed a smoke break? Any way mitb is sorta like a stepping stone. and while with everyone but Edge and possibly CM Punk(this time) it has failed to do so, more because of the wrestler than the case. well that is to say Kennedy. anyway yeah its a gimmick that you can use to cash in at the most opportune time. Edge and Punk when the champion is at his weakest, RVD when the ppv was "extremely" home turf(pun intended) anyway as far as a gimmick it works to get a quick belt switch when necessary.

[HBK-aholic]

The opposite of the thread asking what the WWE would need to do for you to stop watching altogether. There is way too much negativity on these boards recently, 'fans' who do nothing but say how bad the product is. Now, I'm sure the point of the WWE is to entertrain us, so you're not really a fan if it doesn't, but anyway. What could McMahon do in order for you to completely enjoy the product again? I'd answer this myself, but I quite love wrestling as it is. The only thing that could make it better is Shawn Michaels returning, and that's not a problem anyone has decided.

[The Todd]

The Rock returning, which will never happen. What people don't realise is it is meant to piss you off at times. Back in the good ol' days it was acceptable to be annoyed at the product, now it seems "let's blame creative". For example, I hated Punk winning at Extreme Rules. Why? I loved the ladder match and it now won't be remembered for a great contest, but was Punk winning entertaining? Sure was. People take the result too seriously, and the fact their wrestler looks too weak. Apparantly Orton getting owned by HHH last night is a sin because Ortons should look strong. No he shouldn't.

The product is fine. If you don't like too many wrestling match ups and you prefer the entertainment side, you watch Raw, if you prefer storytelling in the ring you watch Smackdown. If you prefer young up and comers you watch ECW. If you prefer violence you watch TNA. There is too much choice for people to complain. Personally I prefer Smackdown as I like watching competitive matches, and as long as there is one show dedicated to that I won't complain.

[RatedRKO93]

Vince needs to switch up the people in the main event and switch around the fueds. The current fueds are so boring and are dam near impossible to watch. If i see Triple h and randy orten battle over the wwe title again im gunna be really pissed. They also need to introduce some new talent to the main event. etc. MVP John Morrison The Miz and mayb even HBK hes due for another title run. They also need to stop realising good talent etc. Kennedy and Umaga. They need to get the fuck out of the pg era and they need to bring back some of the older stars RVD and Kurt angle would be a good start. Bring back trish as well

[blair4107]

I would be fine if they would just do NORMAL finishes to matches. Why can no heel get a clean win? Either they have to cheat to win or or there will be one of 1000 disqualifications with stupid reasons for the D.Q.'s. These ends can be enjoyable, once in a while, they shouldn't be the norm.

[HBK-aholic]

I would be fine if they would just do NORMAL finishes to matches. Why can no heel get a clean win? Either they have to cheat to win or or there will be one of 1000 disqualifications with stupid reasons for the D.Q.'s. These ends can be enjoyable, once in a while, they shouldn't be the norm.

Heels don't generally get clean wins because it makes us hate them more. Think about how annoyed you are when yet another heel gets a 'cheap' win by using the belt when the referee isn't looking, or having their foot on the ropes. It's things like that which make us hate/be annoyed. And guess what? That's the point of them! WWE is doing a fine job.

[Scott Free]

Vince would need to stop trying to push what he wants and let the actual audience pick who should be on top. Case in point, Jeff Hardy, way over with the crowds, yet Vince did not give him a decent title run. Vince still thinks he can make people watch what he wants, over and over, he's wrong and it's time to start listening to the audience responses and look at the ratings to determine who should be the next big star.

[blair4107]

Heels don't generally get clean wins because it makes us hate them more. Think about how annoyed you are when yet another heel gets a 'cheap' win by using the belt when the referee isn't looking, or having their foot on the ropes. It's things like that which make us hate/be annoyed. And guess what? That's the point of them! WWE is doing a fine job.

I understand that and it makes sense, as I said, but it doesn't make sense to do it all the time. It isn't really a surprise when every match ends the same, my point was more against the D.Q. finishes that have happened so much lately but Heels can get clean finishes and they actually benefit more from it because people get more behind them. Remember people's reactions to Dolph Ziggler before and after his first or second win on Smackdown? I can't remember who he beat but the finish came pretty much clean, he may have cheated a little I don't really remember but at least it wasn't a D.Q. and ended in a pin.

[hatehabsforever]

I would like to see the weekly TV shows matter again. As a general rule, nothing of significance ever happens on Raw or SD (I don't watch ECW). Unless there's been an injury or suspension, titles never change hands on any of the weekly TV shows. Like a couple of weeks ago when MVP challenged Orton for the title. Great match but everyone knew there was no way MVP was going to beat Orton to win the title on Raw (unless Orton was suspended or injured). So while the match was great the result was predictable: either a MVP loss, a win by DQ or something whereby the title doesn't change hands, or interference by Legacy. I think it would be a breath of fresh air to see someone defeat a champion, one on one, fair and square, on Raw to become a new champion. Like when Kingston beat MVP recently. And ideally without it being spoiled on sites such as this one.

Plus, as someone above me correctly stated, I would like to see a heel win a match every now and then without cheating or outside interference. I understand how this plays into the whole heel thing, but even still, I would like to see Edge, for example, actually defeat someone to win a title at least once without all the bullshit circumstances around it.

[Leeds Guy]

Theres nothing that the WWE can do, people will whinge and bitch about it all the time, they could bring back the Rock/Austin/Hogan etc and people will then start saying ''theres too much megastars now not enough new talents getting pushed'' they could bring back Bret Hart and you'd have people saying ''He's not like he used to be, he should have stayed away'' People are always going to find some fault with the WWE and nothing anybody can do will change that.

Pushing new talent will undoubtably recycle the whole process of bitching at champions that seems to be oh so popular now. Orton and Edge are a few titles away from being classed the most decorated of all time they should eclipse Flairs sixteen or HHH's 20+ in there career but that will bring the haters to say what they are saying about HHH now. Then the next new talent will come up and the process will start again.

Its only a matter of time before some negative publicity comes WWE's way again, which will make people (especially the media) hate on it even more, maybe another death, maybe a shocking investigation into how the superstars live, maybe another nuggets fiasco something will kick off because people quite frankly hate being satisfied with what they are watching and always feel the need to piss and moan about things, its just the world we live in.

[WOLFPACK0524]

Well the WWE has started the ascent into making me like it again. They are shocking people, at least in the last couple of days.

Shock #1 Fired Kennedy
Shock #2 Had Tommy Dreamer win the ECW title
Shock #3 Had Jeff Hardy win the WHC
Shock #4 Had CM Punk cash in the MiTB and win the WHC
Shock #5 Vickie quit
Shock #6 Edge's face turn (apparently)
Shock #7 HHH returning early
Shock #8 WWE released Umaga

So right now they have apeased me in the sense that they don't have Vickie any more as well as Batista is out again with another injury (sound familiar - Kennedy anyone?) So there isn't a champion. So it will be interesting what they pull off in the 3-for-all.

I was sad about the MVP promo after I saw HHH. MVP wanted to be in the title match at next week's 3 hour Raw but with HHH back, he'll be pushing people back again to regain the spotlight in the Main Event. That will be what truly makes me love Raw again. Smackdown seems to be getting it right. Raw has the "Main Event regulars." They need more mid-card guys to step up but truly, no one is molding them except MVP, sone one else needs to step up too but I can not figure anyone on Raw that could except Miz.

[Dre Guevara]

I got MY wish last night when Vickie resigned & Edge kicked her 2 the curb.

[Big Pimpin]

They need to freshen up the product in order to have people stop bitching. People don't wanna see the same old people on top(Orton, Cena & Triple H) & they definitely don't wanna see Orton & Triple H part 1,000 or some shit like that cause it's extremely stale & it's time for them two to feud with new people. They also need to not have the same old finish every single match with the heels. Yes I get that having a cheap victory does wonders for the heel, but let the heel get a suprise victory every once in a while. They are doing some positive things like The Miz being anti Cena & it does seem like they are letting Rhodes & DiBiase kinda branch out a bit without Orton, but other than that. I would say freshen up the main event scene & do something different for every match & hopefully there won't be as much bitching as there is now.

[Budro5454]

this thread is to hypocritical but overal a good question. Most of us have watched wrestling, and purchased merchandise, PPV's for a very long time now. That gives us the right to jump on here and simply offer our opinions on the product whether they be positive or negative. WWE CREATIVE TEAM... take some free advice from this and don't worry about thanking me... this stuff is less than obvious.

#1 These younger guys have to go through an acting class or something because there mic skills are brutal. They need to sell themselves when they talk or else why in the hell would we want to see a match? Cody and Ted are great young talent but they sound terrible on the mic so how could you take them seriously like Evolution?

#2 Stop using Cena in "Taking on the Impossible" situations. The first two matches he had with the Big Show were boring, they story was brutal and yet they are still pushing the angle! All these situations due is make people hate Cena even more. Cena vs RVD at One Night Stand a few years ago was a message, not a compliment.

#3 Take Chances! One of the oldest people on the active roster is Shawn and you have a new stable of the Hart family in ECW... you don't even need Bret to participate for it to be a good story line. DX vs. The Hart Foundation... it hasn't been done before!

#4 We've seen Triple H vs Randy 3 months ago, We've seen Cena and Orton and number of times and We've seen Orton and Batista... DO SOMETHING ELSE. Remember Shelton's fluke win against Triple H a few years ago? They made a brand new star in less than 10 min time on a random Monday night.

#5 Reach into your pocket Vince and bury your pride... peoples opinion of you will never change! Everyone has their price and I'm sure the Rock could be bought for a lowsey 6 months. What about Stone Cold? He doesn't even have to wrestle! He's fun enough to watch just as a "sherrif." I know Hogan has nothing going on right now and I'm sure he'd do anything for work after all the crap that his ex-wife is putting him through. All these men are huge draws no matter what. And I almost forgot... Randy Savage. Put peoples endless wonder to an end and cut a promo letting us all know why his name was seemingly taboo until now with his DVD. That will be a bit more interesting than that retarted promo you cut 2 weeks ago about the Denver Nuggets... nobody saw it, they were too busy watching the game!
You think by changing the TV rating to PG is going make people forget? You can have nothing but clowns wrestling for you and 20 years from now people will still believe sterriods get passed around in the locker room.

These will not increase your ratings over night but its definately a start... give us something new to watch! Money is tight these days and why spend huge dollars on a PPV to watch the exact same matches we saw at the previous 3?

[unique.enigma.666]

Totally agree with you Whisper, I've been a fan of WWE since 2003, remember watching Survivor Series when 'Taker was buried alive. Anyways, I'd love to see HBK make his return but since he's financially balanced right about now and wanting to spend time with his kids, I don't think we'll see him return for a while now. I'm loving WWE right now, albeit apart from Punk's title victory, I'm a huge Punk fan but an even bigger Jeff fan, the only way I'm going to like that situation is if they have Punk make a heel turn. Other than that they're producing some great entertainmant, this past edition of SD was awesome. I'd say they need to push younger talent though, Kofi and The Colons are two brilliant examples of being pushed, but I wouldn't mind seeing Dolph Ziggler, Ricky Ortiz, MVP and others pushed to the main event or in the case of Ziggler and Ortiz into the IC Division, MVP should be pushed to the ME at this point after losing the US Title to Kofi.

[AndarielHalo]

1) A smark favorite like The Brian Kendrick or John Morrison wins a major world title in a slowly-built feud

2) A little reverse racism -- introduce a happy Arab wrestler guy who is all nice and a great wrestler and kicks ass in the ring. Have him win championships. Have him feud with a JBL type character who is an angry patriot type and is racist.

3) Colorful gimmicks. Example: Randy Orton really does hear voices in his head. Kofi Kingston is Spiderman. Chris Jericho can read minds. Undertaker can make zombies out of Santino Marella or Finlay.

4) Samoa Joe and Batman ("Dark Knight" Batman, not Adam West Batman) come in and feud. I know it sounds like a joke(R), but I'm very serious (Why so?). If this really happened, I would never complain about anything WWE-related ever again. Ever.

5) More cowbell.

[CH David]

Real quick, if they could bring back the Rock to Raw, I wouldn't complain about Raw, as it seems to be the only show I do get ticked off about.

I would say that Raw needs better feuds. It is the flagship program, but people are getting sick of seeing Trips and Orton. I admit I have maybe one last pay per view match between them in me before I am officially sick of the feud. I was able to deal with Backlash because we all had a feeling Orton would win, I'm not going to say we knew, but there was an inkling. Anyway, neither here nor there. They need to end that feud, and try giving MVP a shot, just to see how he may fair in the Main Event.

Cena vs. Big Show just needs to end. I thought at Extreme Rules it was going to be over, no matter who won. I was actually looking forward to the Miz vs. Cena match last night, hoping like hell it wasn't going to be Cena raping Miz and ruining his career. Then Show comes out and I thought, WTF, I thought this was over and the Cena vs. Miz feud could truly begin. Perhaps it is a blessing. Maybe Miz goes over Show sometime soon, kind of earning the right to face Cena? Then gives Cena a run for his money? That is probably wishful thinking.

[Uncle Sam]

If something happens that I like, I can only come up with really boring posts. I couldn't think of any interesting way to express my joy over Punk winning the world title, for example. My actual post is something like "Oh, Punk won. That'll be interesting."

Bitching about stuff unlocks my creativity. What would stop me? Nothing. Even if the product was perfect, it's just more fun to call stuff shit than it is to call stuff good.

[JGlass14]

I'm so happy someone made this thread. I'm tired of hearing people endlessly complain about PG ratings. I'm with you guys, it's stupid, but has it really changed the product that dramatically? No, it's just taken out some fun aspects, but the reason you started watching wrestling, the storylines and matches, they're still there, and for the most part, are as good as ever.

I will admit, RAW has had some problems lately, but I'm confident that The Miz and Cena will be able to give us something, and even though Orton and HHH has been done to death, a feud between them will be better than what we have been watching.

ECW and Smackdown have both been great, and each show has given us things to be excited about. ECW has the Hart Dynasty, and really all these young superstars that could be a huge deal more or less 5 years. Smackdown has given us an incredible feud between Y2J and Mysterio, and until recently, the mystery of a MITB cash in opportunity, and now a new champ in CM Punk, let's see what he can do this time.

In addition to all of this, we're coming off a very good ppv that had some great matches. That was a top 5 ladder match between Hardy and Edge, with an incredible twist at the end. The Y2J-Mysterio match was also great, with a big surprise ending.

In just the last week, the WWE has still been exciting, entertaining, and has put on some good matches. Last night's RAW was even pretty good. I am still really excited to watch the WWE. I hope people don't let the fact that it's going for a PG rating cloud their opinion of the product.

So what would WWE have to do to stop me from complaining? Nothing, just don't slip any further please, because RAW hasn't been the cream of the crop lately.

[Chadmw]

Well it's only been a little over a month since the draft and people jumping from brand to brand is starting to happen already. First Edge shows up on Raw and next week all three brands are going to be at Raw. And we all know this is just going to lead to superstars jumping from brand to brand.


I thought they said after this draft they were going to keep all the brands separate

[Y 2 Jake]

Meh. The Draft show is supposed to make one entertaining Raw. That it did. You've got Superstars each week with each brand so I don't see what difference it makes. I don't even care if they have Smackdown matches on Raw. I only hope that they leave the inter-brand matches for PPV's at the very least.

[JGlass14]

Jake's right, The Draft is to build hype, make that one episode of RAW super exciting, and hope that the excitement stays for a couple weeks. If they just keep the brand's MOSTLY separated, it's done its job.

Edge coming on RAW last night isn't worth getting upset over, as it was one of the highlights of the show, for me anyway. Plus, it's not like he came and challenged someone for the WWE title or anything, he just wanted to tell Vickie he was done using her. As for next weeks three hour RAW, we don't know if there are going to be any inter-brand matches yet, just that all three brands will appear. For all we know, it could just be a supersized Superstars with more meaningful matches.

[King Patrick]

Edge going to Raw last night and next week’s 3 – For – All special doesn’t really affect the Draft the way you think it does. The only thing that really happened / happens is Edge was tying up loose ends with Vicki and their storyline marriage and it’s a 3 hour special next week. Now unless we start seeing Raw Stars on the Black and / or Blue show, ECW Stars on the Blue show and / or Smackdown Stars on the Black show, the Draft and it’s “rules” are still being abided by. Remember Raw is the Flagship show and for Stars from the other two shows showing up on Raw, it's not really that big of a deal.

[Harthan]

Raw always does big specials. It's not even really a "Raw", it's a tri branded supershow. I mean, by this logic, the Draft itself disrespects the Draft. There's usually like 3 or 4 of these a year, and it's nothing to get worried over, as the week after, they'll just go back to the way it should be.

As for Edge, it was clearly a one time deal. Vickie is legitimately leaving, and they needed to have something happen other than her just say it and move on. That's no way to part ways with the WWE, of course. Edge coming out was hilarious and, for all those that hate Vickie (as you should, she really is a damn good heel), a great moment. He won't be back, I'm sure.

So, this was a one night thing, just like last year when Edge showed up to drop the title to Punk. This is nothing like the blatant erasing of draft lines that occurred from the beginning of Mania build up until Backlash. I doubt we're going to see any kind of return to that until the WWE gets in trouble again, and needs to move people around for the sake of improving the show.

[S.K. Cid]

Raw always does big specials. It's not even really a "Raw", it's a tri branded supershow. I mean, by this logic, the Draft itself disrespects the Draft. There's usually like 3 or 4 of these a year, and it's nothing to get worried over, as the week after, they'll just go back to the way it should be.

As for Edge, it was clearly a one time deal. Vickie is legitimately leaving, and they needed to have something happen other than her just say it and move on. That's no way to part ways with the WWE, of course. Edge coming out was hilarious and, for all those that hate Vickie (as you should, she really is a damn good heel), a great moment. He won't be back, I'm sure.

So, this was a one night thing, just like last year when Edge showed up to drop the title to Punk. This is nothing like the blatant erasing of draft lines that occurred from the beginning of Mania build up until Backlash. I doubt we're going to see any kind of return to that until the WWE gets in trouble again, and needs to move people around for the sake of improving the show.

I agree. It's too far to say that Edge's appearance diminishes brand lines. He isn't wrestling on the show, he just made an appearance. And it was necessary that either Vickie or him showed up on the other's show in order to terminate the story line between them.

As for the Special next week, I don't think it's that jarring either. it's just a special to get up ratings. It's must different from Evan Bourne tagging with Rey Mysterio for the hell of it on Raw, or the Miz and Morrison floating between every brand weekly without a care.

I like the brand distinctions. It gives the shows contained stories. Not that I'd care if they broke those boundaries to make some good storylines, but I think the concentration gives creative a little more focus.

[Razor]

I don't mind the WWE that much as of now. I mean, the Raw before last was atrocious. Completely abysmal. But I can get over it, and like the WWE for what it is.

With saying that, there are two things that would get me to love the WWE without condition.

1) Give the title to someone who can get the ratings up again.

Orton obviously can't carry the company, even with a huge storyline against Triple H and the McMahons. Going beyond my personal dislike for his mic and in-ring skills, if he could carry the ratings I'd put up with it. But damn it. Give the title to Cena and get those ratings back.

2) Keep Flair away. Far, far away.

He's lost his stride. He's like a senile old man. I'd rather have the "I'LL NEVAHHH RETAHHH," Jacket elbow dropping, flop sweating Ric Flair over the new and improved, senile jackass. He bleeds from what seems like every orfice, (not that that's really different. But his stomach? Really?), he's reduced to "Woooooo" in the middle of sentences for pops, and he seems to forget his lines halfway into the promo, forcing him to painfully improv the bit. It's atrocious. And if Orton couldn't make a good promo with Triple H, he definitely couldn't with Flair.

But yeah. I can usually love teh WWE for what they do. But damn. Orton and Flair are killing it for me.

[sting4life]

I like the idea of having a feud between DX and the Harts, or even a feud between the Harts and Legacy. Pay Bret some cash have him do a quick promo in the ring, have Orton come out and attack him, smith and Kidd come out and resue him turning them faces and the feud is set.

Also, stop it with so many title changes. Put the belt on someone and let him keep it for a 4-5 months and let people chase it. Vince thinks that if the ratings are down its due to the champion. One guy isn't to blame for the ratings to drop, its the whole product. Stone Cold could be champion and i'll watch that match, but if the rest of the show consists of matches like, the miz vs santino or golddust vs kendrick i'm turning the channel during them and waiting for the main event.

One last thing, get the Miz off of Raw, I didn't think it was possible for me to hate anyone more then adamle, but he has done that.

[Lord Sidious]

I am interested in garnering some feedback on how you rate today's product. More specifically, I am interested in getting an idea of how your enthusiasm with the product, depending on what Era you began following wrestling.

The Eras are defined as:

Hogan Era: 1985-1993
New Generation Era: 1994-1997
Attitude Era: 1998-2001
Post Attitude Era: 2001-2006
PG Era: 2007-Today


Please first identify the Era that you began following wrestling, and then rate your enthusiasm level with today's product, based on that. Because of the restriction on the number of Poll Options, there can only be 15 selections. Therefore, we are restricted to ranking our enthusiasm level as Very Satisfied, Neither Satisfied or Dissatisfied, and Very Dissatisfied.

What would also be helpful is in the thread, if you could comment very briefly on what you thought of each of the Eras that you actually followed up to today and rate them, as well on the Very Satisfied, Neither Satisfied or Dissatisfied, and Very Dissatisfied scale.

After this poll is up for a couple days and we get a good sample, then we can do some more market research/viewer satisfaction polls and deep dive a little more. But we'll first start out by determining when people began watching the product, and how your thoughts on this Era compare to the Era when you began watching wrestling.

[brodymulder]

I can keep it very short and simple: new story lines with new people and more actual action with less talking and corny comedy skits that only Vince thinks are funny.

[Sabotage]

I would say Vince's biggest mistake would be the whole "Vince McMahon is Dead" angle. With about two weeks of that angle, Sherri Martel is found dead and Chris Benoit kills himself and his family causing him to reveal he wasn't reall dead (which most of us knew already) casuing him to look really shallow and stupid.

His other biggest mistake is not resigning the Dudley Boyz. All three of them should have been resigned in 2005 as they were incredibly over with the WWE fans. Bubba Ray, D-Von and Spike would have made fine additions to the relaunch of ECW in 2006. Now they are two of the most popular stars on TNA. Oh well, one can only contemplate on what could have been.

[General Disarray]

I just began watching the WWE a few years ago and I am satified with the product. That being said, the so called "PG era" is what I have been exposed most of the time that I've been watching wrestling so I don't have much to compare it to besides youtube clips.

Overall though, I think the WWE is doing an above average job, especially in comparison to TNA, which is the main thing I have to compare it to.

[Legendary_Undertaker]

Vince McMahon only did one thing wrong in my eyes and NO it wasn't the XFL.... It was making GOLDBERG a Star in WWE instead of jobbing him like he was suppose to.

There is no way in hell you should ever put The biggest star from another company over your own. Goldberg going over The Rock was a sham and anybody who think otherwise is smoking crack. He should've never been allowed to run through the WWE like that and NEVER given anything above a mid card title...IMO Goldberg was Vince McMahon's Biggest Mistake bar none

[NateDaHack]

I began watching in 96, toward the end of the New Generation Era. What got me hooked was the DX and Steve Austin angles. Until about 2007, I was always extremely satisfied with product in general. When I was young, the actual wrestling didn't interest me so much. Now however, it is my favorite aspect of the show. Which is also the reason why I am dissatisfied with product. The only reason I am satisfied is because of Smackdown. They generally put on great matches that garner my interest. Raw, without going into too much detail, fucking sucks. They constantly rely on redundant stale programs and horrible comedy instead of letting the awesome atheletes they have do what they do best. I don't care about the P.G rating, that has no effect on whether or not people are allowed to perform to the best of their abilities. So that isn't my reasoning. But Smackdown keeps into it, which keeps me at your mid level range for the product as a whole.

[Deviltaker95]

I began watching in the Hogan Era, been through the ups and downs of the company..Im 29 years old, and im very dissatisfied with the direction the company is going. I still order the pay per views and still watch all 3 brands, but it now seems like a chore for me..But just can't break the habit..Im just waiiting for the moment for it to get good again...Old habits die hard & its going to take a lot for me to stop watching all together, but i must say its just getting worse and worse...No more angles, no more colorful characters, same guys in the main event. Superstars being shoved down our throats..etc..

[Chill]

First, I began watching during the Attitude Era and I was around 9 or 10 at the time. Needless to say my knowledge of the business then was extremely limited and in a way that may have been better in terms of enjoying the product because I was able to watch without doing all the analysing I seem to do today. Then I was gullible but despite that the WWE product at the time got me hooked (I also watched WCW at this point as well, and preferred it too until it went downhill). I think to a child of 10 years old, the violence, swearing and edgy programming which was almost taboo to me at the time, was what made the product so appealing to me, this idea that adults may not have approved of what I was viewing made me want to watch all the more...Obviously the Attitude Era brought us some of the most memorable moments in pro wrestling history, and arguably some of the most entertaining and durable wrestling characters there ever has been. I will always fondly remember this era obviously because it was when I first became a huge fan but when I compare it to today's PG rated product I don't know if it was necessarily better.

In some ways, looking back on the Attitude Era today I find myself questioning how I actually enjoyed some of the outrageous, tacky and undesirable antics which in some ways may have cheapened the 'sport'. Some of the stuff they did then which admittedly appealed to me then are in actual fact cringeworthy to me today. Nonetheless, perhaps what I miss most about that era is the attention Creative paid to gimmicks. Wrestlers then seemed to have a gimmick, they had these outrageous personalities which appealed to the die hard and casual fans alike. That is why I believe it may have been easier (still not easy) to get over then compared to today where the gimmicks are so wafer thin that it is obvious little thought or planning has gone into them.

I also miss the attention which was paid to the mid card, even in the Attitude Era it was obvious that titles like the Intercontinental championship were used for the purposes of getting guys over and propelling them to main event status. I miss how the tag team championships actually meant something and how they were effective in getting wrestlers over. Unfortunately today, we see Carlito and Primo come out to a large indifference from the audience and this is because that division has become neglected. The PG era largely seems more concerned with the main eventers, not that a major emphasis was not placed on it back when I started watching but I hope people know what I mean. Another issue I have with today's product is the lack of new stars being created...don't get me wrong, 'Taker v HBK at this year's 'Maina was a great contest and possibly one of the greatest ever, but I watched these guys a decade ago, surely there is a problem if ten years on I am still anticipating a performance by these two the most...I should be looking forward to watching new stars compete but there are none. Perhaps that isn't totally fair, obviously there are guys like Morrison, Benjamin, MVP, Dibiase and Rhodes who give me hope for WWE's future but it's just the company still seems to want to book the HHH's, Batista's etc over them. Unless these younger crop of stars are given attention, when the Attitude Era stars do eventually retire in the not so distance future, the WWE are going to have problems. A recent example is RAW where Rhodes and Dibiase fought Carlito and Primo. Now Rhodes and Dibiase (who I like) are hailed by some within WWE as the future but the sad truth is they are not over in the slightest which I find very frustrating. That is what annoys me about today's WWE, the mid card is not being developed properly or allowed to blossom as it once was permitted to do. WWE needs to focus on all aspects of the card, whether that be opening card matches, the mid card, main event etc and all divisions i.e. women's, tag team and so on ...they must be afforded attention. During the Attitude Era, I found myself throughly enjoying all aspects of the show (yes there were things then which may not have appealed) , but now I am watching certain angles or segments without much care and that is because the WWE are not doing enough to interest me, which stems from a lack of effort being put in to the overall product imo.

Overall, I try to stay positive and not compare today's offering with other Eras but inevitably comparisons will arise. I hope I have not come across like I'm on a rant, I just want to offer constructive criticism. Fundamentally I enjoy today's product, I like the new prospective future stars but perhaps would like to see them used properly or being allowed to develop more. I don't have a problem with the WWE targeting the kids, they are a business and Vince must do what he feels is right for business. I cannot say that I am very satisifed with today's offering, I would sway more towards general satisfaction with some frustration targeted towards certain aspects of the show which I feel are perhaps more neglected today than when I first began following. I want to be enthusiatic and I am still at times, though if I'm being totally honest I am not as enthusiastic as I could be....

[King Patrick]

Vince McMahon only did one thing wrong in my eyes and NO it wasn't the XFL.... It was making GOLDBERG a Star in WWE instead of jobbing him like he was suppose to.

There is no way in hell you should ever put The biggest star from another company over your own. Goldberg going over The Rock was a sham and anybody who think otherwise is smoking crack. He should've never been allowed to run through the WWE like that and NEVER given anything above a mid card title...IMO Goldberg was Vince McMahon's Biggest Mistake bar none

I don’t agree with this. Goldberg might not have been “Home grown” but I think your reasoning was the same reason why the Alliance angle failed. Had Vince just put his ego aside, considering he already won the actual War, things would have been different today. What he did with Goldberg was what he should have done with WCW and ECW, in my opinion. I really don’t know why Vince or you would think it’s “best for business” to bury the competition, especially if you own the competition. That would be shooting a dead cow. That would be like being a Champion winning a Non – Title Match (Yes, I threw in a promo about a thread I created today). Anyway, the only issue I had with Goldberg in the WWE is that it didn’t last long enough.

[Tenta]

Vince's biggest mistake. Well, it's simple... It's exactly what he did to make himself the superpower that he is now. Vince's biggest mistake is ripping the territory system to shreds.

You see, the territories use to be the place where wrestlers could perfect their gimmick. Think of it like all of the WWE's developmental leagues.... Times infinity. A wrestler could perform in front of a lot of people, and learn to perfect his craft. Gimmicks could stay fresher, because a wrestler could move from territory to territory. Vince's complete pillaging of the territories may have been what led to the WWE becoming what it is, but on the whole, for wrestlers, and professional wrestling, it kinda fucked over the system. Now, gimmicks would become tiresome, and there would be no lower stage to learn how to perfect one's craft.

I remember they were discussing it in one of the Legend's roundtables, and I think one of the Legends said that Vince looks at what he did to the territory system, and wonders, "what have I done". He knows that he has made a platform for wrestlers to either sink or swim to a national audience. There is no perfecting one's craft. There's no going to other territories to get seasoning. And the gimmicks that we see nowadays get staler than they ever have.

Consider a case of... Well, Abdullah The Butcher. A wrestler like that, with that gimmick, might be able to last in WWE for ten years, tops. Abby took his gimmick from territory to territory, and was able to milk that gimmick for fifty years. Can you think of any wrestler that can do that now, in this day and age? Impossible. So in that sense, Vince has pretty much screwed over the longevity of the wrestling business.

Don't get me wrong, becoming a national promotion did a lot of good for the WWE. But as for pro wrestling, in general? It may have wound doing a lot of harm.

[thelcon21]

Since Royal Rumble the WWE product has been terrible. I have never turned off a PPV and after Randy Orton dropped the title too Batista in 7 minutes and knowing that Batista had a torn bicep I couldn't watch anymore. I decided to watch Raw to see if they could explain themselves but after seeing Triple H return and watch him go through Cody and Ted like he was beating up Doink the Clown and Santino I turned it off again. The product is just old and boring and predictible now.

Look at the facts that Wrestlezone posted earlier today. Since Summerslam 2004 the same four wrestlers (Batista, Triple H, Cena, Orton) have always been involved in a title main event match on PPV. Back in the attitude era you had Stone Cold, The Rock, Undertaker, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Kane, Mankind all changing things up and going for the WWF title. Yes we saw Rock vs. Austin and Undertaker vs Austin a lot but everytime there was something different added to the feuds. Now Batista, Cena, Triple H and Randy Orton are all one dimensional and it is the same feuds over and over again.

How many times do we have to relive the breakup of Evolution? Yes we get the fact that Triple H turned on Randy Orton, but that happened in 2004 and it is 2009 now. How many times do we have to hear that "There is no way John Cena can make the Big Show submit" yet Super Cena does it anyway?

Back in the day Austin and Rock were the two main faces in the company, but they didn't look like super heroes against the other main eventers. When Austin would fight the Undertaker you had an idea that Austin would probably win but you weren't 100% sure that would happen. Now you always know that John Cena and Triple H are always going to come out on top.

When Randy Orton formed Legacy I was real excited about this group, but now they look like a bunch of nothings and are being used to make a 39 year old 13 times Heavy Weight Champion look good. Does Triple H really need to put down this group everytime he hits the ring. He is Vince's son inlaw and will probably help run this company in the future. Wouldn't it be to his benefit to help build a future for this company instead how hoping to win more World Titles than Ric Flair?

Anyway that was more of a rant but if you can't tell by that I think todays product is really poor compared to the past we've seen.

[mcflyboy]

This is in response to lord sidious' comment to me:

If you thought that this was "lame and immature", why don't you go support something like Ring of Honor, or go watch UFC? It is clear that more people embraced the version of the company when it was sex and violence ... as opposed to this version of the company, where it pretends it is actually a real sport, and not entertaining in the slightest.

I guess I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by telling me to go elsewhere. Besides being somewhat rude, why would I, when my point was that I prefer the product now, in part because the immaturity, overt sexuality and violence has toned down somewhat compared to 10 years ago?

I could just as easily counter by saying perhaps you should should stop watching if the current product is such a turnoff for you. By your own admission, you don't find it entertaining in the slightest. If that is the case, why do you watch it? Just to come here and complain about it?

But I don't really want to get into a debate or an argument, so I'm not going to add anymore to this discussion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but it seemed a little extreme and unnecessary to tell me to take a hike just for expressing mine.

[Hayles]

How much time do you have? (lulz)

1) Freshen up the main event scene?

I really dont watch any wrestling these days and I just happened to see the Raw results this week, thus I can only speak for Raw. Though I am pretty sure the same names are main eventing Smackdown too. Its time to put new names in the main event scene, even for a trail. I understand that names like Triple, Batista, Edge, Randy Orton, John Cena, and Jeff Hardy draw ratings, but they've been in the main event constantly for at least a year now. Triple H has been main eventing since the 90's for Christ sakes. If these people are supposed to be the ratings cows, then they should be able to draw where ever they are placed on the card. I'd love to see a match of CM Punk vs Chris Jericho for the World Championship. Of course WWE would have to fill out the card just to make sure the ppv sells, but they should give this a shot. Fan reaction will let them know if they have a future with wrestlers such as MVP and Punk, if the do WWE should start building the respective brands around them.

2) No balls allowed

The last time I spent any time paying attention to anything divas, Melina and Beth were in a storyline where Melina just won the Divas Championship and she was out to prove her win wasnt a fluke. She also had to overcome the odds of Santino and Rosa in Beths corner. On Smackdown McCool had just turned heel after losing her belt, thanks to what she blamed as horrible refereeing by Maria. A few weeks ago I turned on Raw only to see Santino Marella in drag. I'll admit the whole mankini thing had me laughing when I saw it on Youtube, but it should have ended there. Now the womans division is centered around a dragqueen from what I can see. The womans division(s) should be centered around women, not men. Speaking of which, there should only be one division. In no way does the WWE have enough talented divas to have two different divsions for women. The division should also be on one show, I'd prefer ECW as that show is more wrestling based and right now the divas need to be seen as wrestlers rather than glorified media whores.

3) The tag division

While I'm not too happy with what TNA is doing with their tag division, it has been a hell of a lot better than WWE's. The tag team divison, much like the Divas should be exclusive to one brand. The division needs to either have interesting storylines, or the division needs to work on a ranking system. I dont exactly know whats going on with the unified champs, but apparantly WWE's tag division isnt trumping TNA's.

4) General Managers

How many GM changes have there been over the past few years? GM's should be arround for longer than a year and they should have some actual power. By that I mean, when the McMahon family decided to make their anual Raw drop in, they shouldnt over rule anything a GM does. They were involed with Eric B as GM, Kurt Angle as GM, Teddy Long as GM, Vickie as GM, Paul E Hayman as GM, and so on. I dont care if they stop by, but they should be in storylines away from the GM.

5) Face character development through rivalries

CM Punk is straight edge. He doesnt drink and he doesnt do drugs. Well thats nice, but that was his gimmick when he debuted years ago. Not much has changed and not much has expanded in his character. Now I'll admit, I hated Cena's two year title reign, give or take a few months. However, does anyone remember his character before that reign. I learnt how to be a racial minority off of him, and Im a real life racial minority! He quickly dropped the rapper gimmick and became, a man who honoured respect, a man who refused to back down from challange, and refused to quit. That may be a sort of boring character to some, but it is a defined character that people can easily understand. A lot of characters are in the same position as Punk. You have Kofi Kingston, Christian Cage (Yeah I still call him that), Ron Killings, Evan Bourne, Gregory Helms, Ricky Ortiz, and even Jeff Hardy.

6) Interesting Storylines

WWE proved they can have interesting storylines. The who killed McMahon angle was great till we found out the answer was Benoit and the twist was that it was actually Benoits family that were killed. The most recent point of interest was when Triple H broke into Ortons home and beat the holy hell out of him. It reminded me of the infamous "Pillmans got a gun" angle. However, the next week on Raw the rivalry went back to the same predictable and boring booking. Orton promised a shocker and he beat up Stephanie, but wait Batman, Orton beat up Stephanie the previous month! OH MY GAWD! All Im saying is make storylines interesting. After seeing Triple H break into Ortons home, for the first time in almost 4 years, I felt like I couldnt miss Raw. The storyline wasnt a complete blur to me, like everything else from 2005 till now.

More to come when I have the time.

[Hayles]

Business wise Vince McMahon really hasnt made any mistakes. I mean, maybe he could have had beter drug policies, but he does offer paid rehab to all of his former workers. There was nothing he could do about Eddies drug usage in WCW and believe it or not, retard or not, I believe Benoit would have murdered his family.

Buying WWE really hasnt proved a bad option for Vince either. Yes he killed off his rival wrestling company, but they damn near killed WWF. If he didnt buy the company, someone else might have and they might have bought WWF in the long run. I understand people think much of the things going on in WWE are boring or just plain ridiculous, but thats because WWE isnt marketed to you. Welcome to reality, children. You are not the people bringing the paper with dead people on it to Vinnie Mac. In the 90's most of you were, in the 80's I was, but now its your little brothers, sisters, and maybe your children that are.

The only mistake I see Vince making is bring back Triple H to revive a rivalry that has been done three times already. Even the youngest of fans have got to be getting sick of Randy Orton vs Triple H. I dont expect it to last long at all.

[The Champ is here]

Yea i have to agree with most of everyone on this thread.

I Have no problem with the PG rating change -even though it does suck wtf is the blood-
Triple H is way to dominate- Love em but... dude, ur dick doesn't have to be that hard all the time, put more younger talent over instead of just given the younger talent a chance to have work with HHH.-
Orton Vs. HHH Fued is so stale- HHH vs. Orton Hell in a cell At the Bash to end it
Legacy- Those silverspoon Boys are great inring performers but they are so boring and act so old. Ric Flair has more Saz them those guys.-
C.M.Punk as a Face-he would be natural as a heel
The same fueds and matches- Cena/Edge, Cena/Big Show, Cena/Jbl, HHH/Orton, Jbl/Rey, MVP/Matt hardy.
about 85% of Raw's Storylines from July08 til now dont make sence.Main Event superstars have to change-Same ol shit
Smackdown needs to be moved to wednesday- the best out of the 3 shows but it's on a shitty night.-
Main event guys have got to step up- Cena has to have more moves instead of the same old shit. It so predictable for cena matches.

Jeff Hardy or and Shawn michaels have to become champion.

[Black Snow]

I began watching in the Flair era (your poll calls it the Hogan era.) Today's product is very touch and go so I said I wasn't satisfied or dissatisfied with it. RAW is a very poor show. Santino is entertaining and I love the midcard but the main event scene is very disappointing. RAW is easily my least favorite show of the week. SD on the other hand is amazing. The only thing I don't really like is the women it chooses to push. Both it's main event and midcard are incredibly deep and interesting. Superstars and ECW are both fun little shows. Neither is amazing but I still get a kick out of most of the action. Superstars especially is very fast, fun, well-paced show.

TNA iMPACT! is like RAW. When it does something good it does it great. When it does something bad it's absolutely horrible.

Today's product as a whole is good. But very rarely do I see something that I feel like I'll be remembering vividly a decade from now.

[tLight]

Triple H + a very long losing Streak and no chance of a title run whatsoever.
Make him job to everyone on the roster on each show.
Eliminate the retarded "comedy skits" and focus on the wrestling. They help to developed some characters, but there is no need for more than 1 a per show.
The "WWE Style" of wrestling needs to change. Big Spots, and bumps are cool, but those shouldn’t be what drives a match. Switch up the endings, it’s great that guys have finishers, but when a match has more than 3 false finishes in a match is overkill.

Best of 7 feuds work well, best of 407 feuds don't. Edge got away from Cena, let Cena get away from Show, let Orton get away from Triple H, Fire Batista.

Move the roster around again. Make ECW like the X division, put the smaller guys on that roster and let them wrestle, have story lines, but not these garbage story lines they keep giving us.

Stop throwing tag teams together, then breaking them apart during the draft every year. Build them up to be tag teams, and have the tag champs wrestle on every brand (or at least two brands) a week.

More wrestling

[Twist]

Heels don't generally get clean wins because it makes us hate them more. Think about how annoyed you are when yet another heel gets a 'cheap' win by using the belt when the referee isn't looking, or having their foot on the ropes. It's things like that which make us hate/be annoyed. And guess what? That's the point of them! WWE is doing a fine job.

But every heel cannot be the cowardly heel. Having a heel come out and just flat out beat your favorite guy can get you plenty of heat. It's obvious they need cheap heels, but they can't make it so predictable with every heel cheating to win every single time.

On topic itself, I'll keep it to one answer right now and say they need to add more value to being the champion. It's whored out now. Edge wins it, drops it right away, even Cena does that now.

As sick as people here get of Triple H (myself included, sometimes) having a champion who really holds up the championship means something. We shouldn't have 6x champions made just over the course of a year. If a heel wins it, let him keep cheating to retain it. The champions have looked very weak, outside of Triple H, regardless of who it has been placed on- Cena, Batista, Orton, Edge, Jericho, Hardy... That can't be.

[Dr. Steven JicKurtesy Mames]

I began watching sometime after HBK got sidelined, simply by chancing it through channel surfing. Ahh... the remote, God's gift to man.

Anywho... I was completely hooked. Every moment they offered was pretty much excellent. If I missed a Raw or Smackdown, I would ball my eyes out (I was young & stupid). When HBK returned & the nWo came to WWE, I started doing research of wrestling as I had no idea who they were.

I have to say, I was pretty lucky to watch some classic matches like Rock v.s. Austin, Austin v.s. Undertaker, WM20 Triple Threat.... the list goes on, until 2007. The only match with a fued that I have creamed my pants over was the HBK v.s. Underater match at WM25. Its pretty sad how 2 wrestlers who have passed their prime & are due for expiry date from the full-time "in the spotlight" wrestling are the guys who created an epic match that wrestling fans such as ourselves are going to remember as the best of the PG era! I know there is more to the future, but unless they start giving younger guys the push from the midcard to the main event, undercard wrestlers to the midcard, get rid of the undercard & fix up the divisions, WWE isnt going anywhere but down the toilet in which i am very close to flushing.

Seriously, how long can WWE milk John Cena & Triple H??? Why is there a PG rating when there are other shows on TV that contains way more offensive material than WWE??? If WWE deserves such a rating then UFC should be kicked off TV or at least a G or E rating??? (depending where you come from).
ATM, I am very dissatisfied with the product. The only saving grace WWE has is Smackdown. ECW is doing very well with a very limiting roster.

I dont know about any of you, but RAW is like a dog with a very serious heart problem. Either you give it a pacemaker or something to keep its heart beating as it used to or you put it down. Letting it suffer like this will not result in anything good. How can Vince look down at the dog called RAW looking at him with sympathetic eyes that reads help me & he does nothing about it because it still entertains the kids???

My conclusion: Vince doesnt know what to do & should step down. Umaga shouldnt have been released, Batista should have. Give Legacy & Kane the push they need. The moment I flush the toilet is the moment I will join the professional wrestling circuit to save the WWE. Do something before I have to.

Peace. FalKon Out.

[The Sign Guy]

I started watching in late 2003 (post-attitude era). The Kane/Shane fued is what got me into it. I remember my first night watching Shane ran Kane into the Tractor Trailer and i was like Oh My God what've I been missing. Since then both Kane and Shane McMahon have been two of my favorites. I have seen alot of stuff from the Atitude Era and it was basically awesome. I was very satisfied with what I saw there. And I am very satisfied with the post attitude era. The New Generation Era was okay and I never got into the Hogan Era that much. I enjoyed the product up until about sometime between late 06-mid 07, then it started going downhill. The new PG era is okay, but alot of the gimmicks suck and there is not enough quality wrestling (especially on RAW) and the fueds are getting stale. And I also wish they'd start showing the blood again, it's like it's wrestling, for goodness sakes, you expect blood! ECW, is very good though. I really enjoy it. So based on the little entertainment I occasionally get from RAW and ECW's quality, I am sorta dissatisfied with the PG Era.

[Zeedeevel]

Well I started watching around 1991 and i was a huge hulkamaniac until late 92 when I saw hbk win his first ic title. The hogan era was great and left mostly everyone happy. I would rate this as very satissfied

The new generation is what I can remember most since i was in grade school when it was going on. A lot of people trash that era for the goofiness but this was the era that Bret Hart, Razor Ramon, Diesel, HBK, and Undertaker thrived. I would rate this as very satissfied as well

Attitude Era is what a lot of people wish would come back, but vince russo has tried that many times and it cant be duplicated. It was also a time when many stars were born and even more thrived. Another very satissfied era

Post Attitude is an era that I cannot really comment much on as I had stopped watching in mid 2002 til the special raw after eddie died. I had stopped watching due to time conflicts not because the product was bad. What I saw of this era was good enough to get me back into it fully, especially with Edge being in the main event. so from what I saw I'll say very satissfied

The PG era is an interesting time to me. Smackdown and ECW have vastly improved their shows and Raw has slipped a little bit. I'm not exaclty happy with the lack of tag team wrestling but there will be a time for that again. They are actually defending the US and IC titles now with guys that are actually entertaining and restoring the titles. ECW, while not being too extreme anymore has some of the best matches on tv and is actually becoming fun to watch. I'm satisfied with this era but not very satisfied but I picked that cuz I do like the product still a lot just not as much as I used to.

[HBK-aholic]

It's been in my life since I've been born, which was '91. I've always watched it, although obviously not understood it that early. That being said, I still completely love it now 17 years later. I LOVE watching Raw, waiting for the PPVs to come on. I genuinely hate the heels and cheer the faces. I mark out for almost everything. I hate spoilers, because there's no point in watching the show. Basically, the WWE is awesome.

[kingdirrtysouth1]

I started watching during the Jim Crockett NWA era! You don't have that one thought so I wont vote. But, I enjoyed the product a hell of a lot more back then than I do know. Back then the Horseman were running things and Flair was the (CREDIBLE) World Heavy weight champ! Today Legacy is running(towards a beat down by an individual superstar) & Randy Orton...well...
On the other(and other brand) Smackdown delivers solid in ring action every week! NWA had tons of solid workers just like Smackdown today. Plus Smackdown had a credible World champ who took short cuts to retain like Flair used to!

TNA-Well their champ can't go in the ring any more. Still solid on the mic though! Back then, NWA pulled out the gimmick matches(WARGAMES) for the big events! TNA pulls out the gimmick matches(ladder match) for EVERY event! The thing that really kills me is that just EVER match on a given ppv isa multi-man match!

The NWA never tried to use some elses formula. They used their own. Remember TNA original formula, wrestling first, sports entertainment second? The X division has become the Ex-division!

Jim Crockett's NWA had lots of great tag teams(R&R Express and Midnight Express), TNA has great tag teams(Beer Money, MMG), WWE don't like tag teams!

I do get excited about certain things, but haven't really been excited about an event since HOGAN/ROCK. After that one, it seemed like they forgot how to Wrestlemani! That year was the best build for a ppv(besides Starrcade 97) I had ever seen, but that was then, this now!

I'm not dissatisfied, but not nearly as satisfied as I used to be!

[Henry Hill]

i began watching wrestling when i was a mere 3 years old. i actually have a photo of me watching Hulk Hogan as a very young child, completely marking out. i still have ljn action figures of Hogan, Andre, Beefcake, Cowboy Orton, Terry Funk, King Kong Bundy, Greg Valentine, and several others. I've been there through the Good, the Bad, and the ugly. I was such an HBK mark during the new generation years, and i loved The Rock during the attitude era. since then i've loved Orton, Eddie, and Chris Benoit (yeah he is a murderer, but i can't deny i loved that guy at one point.) Angle and HBK.
Currently i think the product could be better. I also believe it could be a whole lot worse. Orton is not always on top of his game. HBK usually delivers, and Angle is in TNA. There are things i miss from every era and there are things i dont. The point i am trying to make is: wrestling is what you make of it. fans love what they love and hate what they hate. and i hope constantly for a new "golden" era of wrestling, but to me it'll be different than what it is to anyone else. I'm just glad that i can watch Raw and SD! every week. I'm stoked about what the future holds and i think there can be a great amount of improvement and building of the next generation of wrestlers and fans. Ultimately i am not always happy with the current product, but i am positive about it and the future. LONG LIVE WRESTLING!!

[gregfj2]

I heard friends talk wrestling at school in the 80's but only real exposure was Hogan on A-Team, I guess. I imagine it was the flood of Austin shirts that made me take another look around 2000. I was a Rock fan right away and hated how massive & strong Hunter was but he always used a weapon on my guy. I'm sure I collected PPV tapes right away, and I remember that '98 was barely interesting to me but by '99 the characters were almost all must-see and follow.

In comics I like team books and team battles, so the addition of WCW guys and then the takeover of the whole business should have been HOT... but it wasn't at all. Respected wrestlers were ignored, good characters were denied a chance to entertain, and worst of all the 2 hour shows barely had an hour of content while the fillers like Jakked and Bottom Line were used to replay the same damn we already saw replayed the night it happened. All this time could've been used to spotlight the staggering amount of performers available. Even today I hate reading about dark matches that I'll never see.

There's been so many gross and disgusting moments that made me stop watching for a few weeks or more, but some characters have been so fun to watch that I love to discover their earlier work and consider the hard life they've chosen to follow. I've read reviews of ECW matches that I could never bear to watch, but to see those guys still healthy and walking normal with no apparent facial scars is just amazing to me. I wish wrestling could be more honest about pretending to be serious, because all the practice and effort to give a good performance is still hard work and sometimes dangerous. Actually I guess every single match could be dangerous depending on skill or motives, so why not open up about it?

Steve Blackman will always be my number one favorite, but I can't really say why. But I also love Jamie Noble and Lance Storm and Little Bastard back when the 'e'-camera was new and he jumped out to surprise Stacy Kiebler. I think that Lita should have been true to her roots and stayed with Essa, because the poor guy was erased just like that. I am really disgusted to hear about Bradshaw's public behavior as if it's never reported or spread around. But most of all if WWE puts jobbers on my tv, but the kids have accomplished something at school or in development, THEN TELL ME so I can stay interested in the business. You are not selling me Koslov just because he can destroy strangers. (But maybe the business makes money just fine from the gimmicks and they don't need brains to survive. I've been reading for years that Lawler is a regular and accomplished performer, but on tv he's just a fool for laughs. How can he play the idiot for so long? I will only believe it if he got to actually pet all those puppies over the years. I would probably play jackass on tv too... Damn!)

[golden miz]

In TNA the main event doesn't awalys have title stipulations. It hardly contains the champion and it makes theings intresting. My question is how many people are sick of seeing matches that somehow involve randy orton or the championship as the main event. They should highlight other fueds as the main event of the show as well do to the fact that it waters down the title fueds. My question is how many feel that the main event shouldn't awalys be involving the champion. I know TNA isn't the best but at least they got one concept right.

[Y 2 Jake]

I like that TNA doesn't have a world title every month. WWE never seems to take advantage of the fact they have two. Prime example is Backlash. Cena vs. Edge could've been for the title. The WWE Championship match could have been a 6-Man tag to hype an eventual Orton vs. HHH rematch.

Title matches shouldn't just be given to anyone.

[Hayles]

The title should always be in the main event. Wrestlers might have other personal feuds, but everyone in the company is trying to get a shot at the WWE or World Championship. Those two titles should always be the most important thing in the WWE. I'm even against the Royal Rumble being the main event at the RR ppv, though seeing as how the name of the ppv revolves around the match, its the one forgivable night.

[King Patrick]

I think this is my new saying, I agree to a certain degree. Orton in the Main Event is getting old. I say three PPVs in a row is good enough, unless, and here’s that certain degree, he’s the Champ. I feel that the WWE Title should always Main Event whatever event on a PPV. It’s the WWE Championship we’re talking about. I think, in my opinion, that Spinning piece of $#!+ is the most important thing in the whole (WWE) Universe and it should be the main focus of all of Wrestling. I think even TNA should look at that Toy Title and think, I want it too!! Even the boys in Blue on Friday nights should strive to get work on Monday’s to get a chance to wear that “Dub Dub Dub Dub W-Unit” piece. Point being, whatever it looks like, it should be the number one goal on every single person involved in this business minds and it should be the last thing the entire world sees on a Wrestling show on any given Sunday.

[Chadmw]

I think the Original poster is talking more about the main events on the weekly television shows. And if that is the fact I agree with him and the main event on the TV shows don't always have to have the World champ involved in it.


But yes the main events at the PPV should always include the Championships

[tj177mmi]

I think if its an interesting feud that is build great and has a lot of steam going into the PPV, then yes, it should be the Main Event instead of the title. But how rarely does that happen?

It rarely happens that the top stars of the company are in the top feud and have the greatest momentum going into the PPV.

[King Patrick]

Oh, TV is totally different. Yes I agree then, on TV the Title should not be the Main focus week in and week out. I, for one, think that the World Title matches should be kept on PPVs as well.

[WOLFPACK0524]

Has anyone also noticed that every single PPV, at least ones that I can remember this year have almost all been one-on-one matches. No tag teams, no triple threats. I mean, where is the variety?

You know the Colons are supposedly to be on all three brands yet they seem to be stuck on Raw facing the only heel team left in Rhodes and DiBiase. Why not face Cryme Tyme on Smackdown or The Hart Dynasty on ECW? Spice it up. Get more tags, 6-mans on PPVs.

Main events need more. Much more. One-on-one and using the same people are getting quite boring.

[RVDgurl]

I began watch WWE programming around 1985 when the Hogan Era was just starting. The product has gone through so many phases since that time, and for the most part, the WWE has done a decent job of changing with the times and updating the product.

Currently, I would say that overall is ok. I can't get SD!, so my opinion is based on RAW, ECW and Superstars. There are things about all the shows that I find highly entertaining and, on the other hand, there are some things that completely bore me to tears.

I have always been more drawn to wrestling based shows, so ECW and Superstars are usually the high points in WWE programming weekly for me. ECW has several interesting personalities that I find myself excited to watch. I have been a fan of Christian and Tommy Dreamer for nearly 15 years and newer faces such as Jack Swagger and Evan Bourne keep me coming back each week. I love the format for the Superstars show with a match from each brand. It keeps me in touch with the SD! talent.

Overall, I think the WWE does a decent job with it's main event talent. Guys like Cena, Batista, Orton, Edge, HBK and HHH are usually involved in decent storylines and fueds. I think the WWE has a wealth of upper mid card talent that could (or should) be moving into the main event scene in the near future, however, I don't think the WWE handles this portion of their talent very well. The WWE has had a difficult time introducing new faces to the main event scene. Hardy and Punk may be the only 2 that have broken into the main event scene over the past year (and many fans complain about that). The WWE cannot rely on the current main event talent forever.

[golden miz]

I think the Original poster is talking more about the main events on the weekly television shows. And if that is the fact I agree with him and the main event on the TV shows don't always have to have the World champ involved in it.


But yes the main events at the PPV should always include the Championships

exctly what I meant. Whats the purpose of putting a diabiasse and rhodes squash match as the main event when they could further other fued an when they have a us title deffence on the show. On a ppv I deffntly think the main event needs to be a title match

[Dre Guevara]

I have 2 agree, there was a point in the WWE when the main event would sometimes consist of a title match with the tag titles or the IC belt up 4 grabs, meanwhile the WWE or World Heavyw8 champion would be involved in a mid card non title match which usually led up 2 the main event of an upcoming PPV.

as 4 the Unified Tag Team titles, I think they should be split up again, matter of fact, the WWE should book a triple threat tag team title match 2 outta 3 falls, that way the belts R split up.

[ratedrko13]

the champ should be in the main event, however these squash matches with legacy is getting boring. Triple h and cena always carry the belt and if they are not then they are chasing it. I want to see something new, but raw's roster is looking a little weak. I think this is why smackdown has an edge, with the pushing of morrison and punk as the new champ.

[ratedrko13]

i think the pg rating ruined it for me, no blood no bra and pannies and now no harsh violence. It doesn't seem real anymore, cage matches with no blood. Regular boring womens matches and no good extreme matches. Exreme rules was not extreme at all unless you count the last match.

Then i think it would be somewhat better, i am 20 yrs old and i want to see what i grew up watching, i feel like i am watching a wrestling show with no creativity. Orton's title reign was short and so have the last few. No prestige with the belts anymore. the inc and us titles are finally getting what they deserve. The tag titles are worthless and theres no tag division.

1) change back to the old tv14 rating.
2) get new faces in the main events.
3) get a tag division.
4) stop giving the title to cena... hhh all the time.
5) i want violence, babes and a anything goes attitude.
6) stop getting rid of good talent, thorn, umaga, kennedy.
7) wheres the awesome stables?

[Slim Pickns]

The main event problem in the WWE has little to do with the world titles. I agree they could get more creative with tag matches and other stipulations but that's not the main issue. The main problem is that they haven't created any new stars to compete in those matches.

I haven't regularly watched WWE since my time on here as a regular, but from reading the results, I haven't missed much. A few more Orton vs Batista/HHH doesn't qualify as must see for me. Having these guys run over the younger guys made sense at first, but having them continually destroy them helps no one.

Now currently I love watching kofi Kingston and Jack Swagger. These guys look amazing. However, how would anyone be into these guys if they weren't booked strongly?would anyone give a crap about swagger if HHH ran him over weekly or he jobbed to Batista in 3 mins? No. I highly doubt kofi and swagger are the only two superstars I would enjoy watching, but it's hard to give a crap about anyone else (like dibiase or Shelton) when they are continually kept down and the same guys are in the main event.

The reason I agree with the thread started in a way is because guys like Shelton could be booked in the main event teaming with a Jericho or orton could be given credibility and be showcase rather than having Orton vs HHH VII for the WWE title. However, this never happens because the WWE insists on having the main event of every ppv be for the title.

[zags]

If the WWE/WHC titles are on the line those matches should always be the main event of a ppv. Look back with HBK/Flair at Mania. The WWE wanted that as the main event. Flair said no. Title matches are the main event. I agree with the Royal Rumble though. First off there are very few matches on the card besides the Rumble and the others are usually the title matches anyway. On weekly tv though yes I can agree with the pushing of others to be in the main event. How else are fans going to get used to these guys in the main scene when the big names are gone? We can look back to the 80's and 90's when the champ wasn't always on or heard of on tv week after week. It was huge when they were on. Now with a monthly ppv you can't have that but at the same time you can limit the useage and exposure and still build up the match.

[DynamiteKid518]

First let me say that I'm honored to be able to share thoughts and discuss all things pro wrestling with you guys...
Now...
I've been a loyal die-hard WWF(E) fan since I was five years old(1988). I never truly grasped or understood wrestling until about 90 or 91. I have to start by cutting straight to the point; Today's product is absolute garbage.
By no means do I wanna sound like a bitter guy who thinks only the old school is cool (like the Hot Rod does). I just cant help it though, things were far more superior in the 80's/90's. It's scary how bad this stuff is now. I have watched every single era religiously and I am a very open minded person who tries to see the good in every episode of RAW/Smackdown/PPV/etc. I loved the attitude era for reasons many others may not have. I was never a big Austin fan or even The Rock. I loved all the DX stuff, and couldnt get enough of the great up and comers at the time (Christian, Edge, Hardyz, Val Venis, etc.) But my point is, I have seen promise in every single era up until now.
Up until now.
I think pro wrestling as we know it is in trouble.
Until someone, and I dont know who, realizes that TV writers are not supposed to write wrestling shows, among other major problems....its gonna be more of the same.
I hear many of you saying more actual wrestling is the answer. I love a great wrestling match more than anyone but I think where the WWE is struggling is in the creative department.
They couldn't be more unoriginal these days. Flat out lazy, thoughtless booking. If we can all sit here and say how cool a tournament would be for the vacant WWE Chamopionship, how the f*ck can't they realize it? Something, anything other than a lackluster fatal-four-way would suffice. SO BORING.
I have just a few suggestions and then I'll shut up.
Please...get rid of some of these titles. All we need is a WWE Champion (a new belt too please!), Tag Team Champions (one set of belts please!), an Intercontinental Champion, and maybe a Womens and Cruiserweight Champion. The oversaturation of title matches makes every one of them more and more meaningless.
Put the brands back together!
I know business and money wise its a great situation for them, but if I keep seeing the same matches/fueds, etc every week Im gonna drop dead. Another Orton/HHH or Cena/Edge feud and I might have to throw my TV out the window.
Open up the creative book! Put more thoughts into these angles rather than guys coming out saying their better than the other and bam...a fued is born. Whatever happened to genius sh*t like Jake Roberts planting a snake a Macho's wedding. Or Jake prepping The Warrior for his match with 'Taker just to lure him into the darkness...That stuff was gold.
Bring back managers. They are far more important than people think. Some of the best stuff I've ever seen was when managers/bodyguards got involved.
Take a lesson from your "C" show.
Whoever is booking ECW has got a great wrestling mind. The stuff on that show makes sense. Flat out. The booking is great and the talent is, in my mind, better than the talent on RAW. That show never disappoints me. Just drop the stupid ECW name though...
More stables. Don't over-saturate with b.s like the Truth Comssion, DOA, oddities, etc. But real solid meaningful stables really give the shows more intrigue. Not to mention, if done right can produce a break out star. Legacy is a poor excuse. Their leader is monotone and has 0 charisma. Not to mention Ted and Cody look more and more weak as each show passes. Now Im supposed to believe they are worthy to be tag champs when they lose handicap matches all the time?
More Vignettes! Whtever happened to a great vignette promoting a new superstar or returning guy? I don't know about you all but when they used to show packages for new guys like Razor Ramon, and more recently Edge and Val Venis....that got me super interested in their characters.
MORE TAG TEAM WRESTLING!!
Now more than ever tag team wrestling appears to be on the verge of extinction. Just when you think it will get good, they decide to feature one tag match every few weeks and NEVER, EVER on PPV. It doesn't take much effort by creative, just go back in history and see how much tag teams meant to the overall product. Its a disgrace that its come to this.
Finally...FORMAT THE PPV's BETTER!.. What the f*ck was the Cena/Big Show match doing on AFTER the WWE Championship match? Besides that, it seems like every match on the show was main event worthy, therefor when we got to the main event, it felt worthless. Whatever happened to a nice solid opening match with maybe Evan Bourne vs Brian Kendrick and actually BUILDING towards the big main event? Its not that hard to figure out. Maybe have the brand only PPV's again?? I dont know but a nice tag title match in the middle of the PPV would be nice. Mix it up...Dont have every match just be a 1 on 1 for so and so's title. OVERKILL.
They're gonna kill me.

So sorry for the long rant, but this laundry list of things need to happen if WWE will ever be cool again in my eyes.
I doubt it though.

[RickDotMark.13]

I agree with Slim, its not the titles, its the SAME people over and over. Cena, Orton, HHH, Batista, JBL, when he was there. Its been the same for about two or three years. Edge has been the best champion, they have mixed in Hardy and Punk Jericho and a couple others, but its just stale and repetitive. They need to stop being scared to pull the trigger. If you want them to get over, just strap them up. They will get more heat if you put the belt on the. If you just strap up Shelton, he will get more of a response. Also R-truth, look how over he has been lately. He gets great pops, and he can go in the ring. Just throw him into the main event mix and see what happens. Its better than seeing the same crap over and over.

[Razor]

I started watching late Post-Attitude era. I was more than happy, considering I came in knowing nothing of what was going on. I was just flipping through one day, found Raw, and remembered watching a few episodes a few years back when Rikishi was shoving his ass in people's faces. I remember probably the 5th episode I watched was a Fatal Four Way for Number One Contendership that had Jeff Hardy in it. I was all kinds of pulling for him, and remember worrying he wouldn't win it. He didn't. I was so bummed. And I was in like 10th grade, lulz.

Nowadays? Pretty much the same. I still mark out like a little girl when Hardy raises his shoulder a half second before he loses, I still cheer when Cena makes the save. The only difference is after the show I come on here and espouse my hatred for Orton and the waste of a main event space he is.

Honestly, I'm entertained by today's product. Which is what it's supposed to do. So I'm very pleased with the product. Minus, say Orton. and Flair.

[Slim Pickns]

If the WWE/WHC titles are on the line those matches should always be the main event of a ppv. Look back with HBK/Flair at Mania. The WWE wanted that as the main event. Flair said no. Title matches are the main event. I agree with the Royal Rumble though. First off there are very few matches on the card besides the Rumble and the others are usually the title matches anyway. On weekly tv though yes I can agree with the pushing of others to be in the main event. How else are fans going to get used to these guys in the main scene when the big names are gone? We can look back to the 80's and 90's when the champ wasn't always on or heard of on tv week after week. It was huge when they were on. Now with a monthly ppv you can't have that but at the same time you can limit the useage and exposure and still build up the match.

In the case of HBK Flair the variable is Wrestlemania. The title match should always be the ME at WM. I know this wasn't the case at WM VIII but that main event didn't feel WM esque to me(though I loved that event). Wrestlemania should have a special feel and by not having a repeat main event with a basic WWE title rematch, this can be accomplished.

[Slim Pickns]

I started watching during the Hogan era. I am niether satisfied nor dissatisfied with todays product.

I actually enjoy ECW quite a bit today. Christian and Swagger are well worth the hour. Smackdown is intrieging post draft so I catch it when I can. My schedule is hectic and I'm so bored with RAW that I haven't watched it in weeks. I just read the results and notice that I don't miss anything major. Cena is one of my favorites but I just can't watch the repetitiveness that is RAW. It's always Legacy is up to something to harm HHH or Batista. HHH or Batista are going to stop them. HHH or Batista go after Orton, Legacy attacks from behind, Legacy gets handled, Orton cheap shots and leaves. Occassionally the brilliant writers will throw a curve and Orton will get beat down.

Maybe it's just the fresh faces like Morrison and Swagger that keep me interested in ECW and SD or maybe it's just that I find HHH about as entertaining as taking a shit but if I were to score the brands on my overall satisfaction it would be-

RAW-4
Smackdown-7
ECW-8

[Milkyway!]

This is the best thread you have ever made. I for one do not have a single complaint about the wrestling world at the moment. Its probably blind love for the company, but I don't really watch in a critical since as to what they could do better. When watching, I just watch the show. Allow myself to be entertained, no matter how stupid it is.

The only criticism I can really give to Raw, is theres not enough wrestling. The wrestlers are doing a great job in entertaining us when they actually have match time. But overall, Raw, isn't giving their competitors enough match time. Albeit, I believe this past mondays Raw was the best one I've ever personally seen. Raw overall in the past few months, is seriously lacking in the wrestling aspect of the game.

SmackDown, I haven't a single complaint about. This is a superb show, that can probably get better, but not much. A diffrent TV station would be nice. MyNetwork is treating SD like crap.

ECW, same as SmackDown. They could use some starpower, and possibly another hour, if they really want the show to draw. As well as a diffrent TV station would be nice.

I haven't really seen TNA enough to know. The only thing I really have ever had a problem when it comes to TNA is they are a bit gittery. The last time I watched, the Motor City Machine Guns//Letal//Creed spent an hour on trying to figure out who Suicide was. In the end, Suicide had a match with Amazing Red vs The British Invasion, the antagonizers didn't even show up. They showed up at Daniels match though, which made no since whatsoever. Only to say they thought he was Suicide. So, Why didn't they just have them go attack suicide while he was in the ring, trying to force Daniels out. Fortanately, they did that later on in the show. So I was just kinda like, well, that was pointless. >.> And that is my only problem I have ever had with TNA. The do a lot of pointless crap. Which WWE does too. So who gives a crap.

[Inc]

The easiest fix which we all know won't happen is to end the Smackdown! and RAW brand split. Keep ECW for up and coming guys but end the big 2 split, unify the world titles and have one HWC. Then you've got a wealth of talent to use between brands inc. Hardys, Punk, Shelton, MVP, Truth, Show, Jericho, etc. I wouldn't mind keeping the IC and US belts as stepping stones as well. Also, I never was a Mark Henry fan and know he can be injury prone but his been doing great as the monster heel on ECW lately. How about a Cena/Henry feud, or HHH/Henry feud seeing as DX/The Nation has history they could bring that up. I've also noticed Dustin Rhodes (Goldust) seems to have got back in shape and seems focused again in the ring. Goldust is a past contender from several HW feuds. Get him away from Horny and turn him heel again. Cena/Goldust feud would be fresh. Also HAVE CENA JOB CLEAN AT A FEW PPV'S. I know Vince wants another Hogan but I don't think there's a living soul older then 12 that believes Cena would take Show in a 'real fight'.

There is so much that can be done with only one WHC, if only Vince would listen. Instead we'll get more HHH/Orton with guys that could be great wasted in comic relief acts.

[Sasori]

I began watching inthe new generation era (1994-1997) and I am dis-satisfied with todays product. The titles don't mean as much anymore! When people like Razor and Shawn held the IC title it meant something! It meant a lot! The world titles are being passed around like hot potatos! And the tag titles don't mean shit! The wrestling is a lot worse. People like Bret Hart, Benoit, Shawn Michaels, etc busted their ass'es making matches look good, today you don't see to many matches and main event matches always have interfereence or something to ruin them! People are so over-rated! Cena has been so over-tared and Edge has won SO many world titles! It's like people now a days don't think of world titles that much. 9 years ago it would be like "OMG Bret Hart is a 7 time world champion!", now its all "7 only!" Like wtf? World Titles are taken as jokes! And those are reasons wh yI'm not satisfied mostly 'coz of the lack of prestige in titles!

[hitmanhart]

"Inc" I agree completely. Vince is wasting good talent in guys like Santion and Goldust for comic relief when they are legit mid-card guys that are clearly over with the fans. Why not give these guys a push?


It really does come down to the brand split. Back when WWE first split the roster in half, it was INITIALLY exciting because Vince split his big names on two brands, allowing fresh, young up-and-comers to become real main events on their respective brand (E.g., Batista, Orton, Cena, etc...) None of these guys would have gotten a push AS quick if it wasn't for the brand split. But before the split,it was still exciting because you never knew who would appear on TV or who was going to get a push. Nowadays you can predict the main event before turning on the TV. The problem is that wrestling has become predictable with the split. Fans have a good idea before RAW or Smackdown! even begins who is going to be in the main event and what storyline will be further developed. This isn't something that fans learn as they grow/age, because older fans back in the attitude era/ early 2000s were still tuning in for surprises before the split. Back then, there were stables, heel/face turns, different guys getting TV time each week, and the show was kept 'fresh'. With the current brand split, fans know that the title is going to be in the hands of either 1 of 3 superstars max. The best word I can think of to describe the current WWE 'entertainment' is 'stale'.

If the WWE really wants to make things exciting, they have to allow the main event wrestlers to cross over brands, or get rid of the roster split. It really does come down to that. Why not have a stable featuring 2 main event guys from each brand that want to wreck havoc on the WWE?

Another thing I notice is that there are hardly any 'cool stables'. Back in the day there tons of groups that were battling it out with each other. Ministry of Darkness, The Coorporation, Nation of Domination, Los Buriquas, DX, Disciples of Apocolypse, the Hart Foundation, etc... the list goes on. Right now the WWE has Legacy, and until they freshen it up its going to be old too.

Memo WWE: combine the rosters (at least let your rosters crossover to start new feuds to keep the fans tuning in), get some new stables, and change things up like make HHH a heel and Edge a face. Vince keeps thinking that making the title change hands is exciting, but if you keep switching it between 2 guys over and over again its going to get boring.

[ThaRaph]

the title is supposed to be the centerpiece of the company. Just about everyone in WWE has said at some point "if you not tryin to be WWE champion, you dont need to be here"

Not having a world title match headline a ppv would be a true waste.

[ThaRaph]

to call any promotion "the most horrible wrestling organization to work in" covers ALOT of ground.....from the way they organize the production of an event, to the level of access the wrestlers have to medical care.

any wrestling company that fits that description is one we've probably never heard of, and never will, unless a group of indy wrestlers get together and expose them

[AgeOf619rko]

I've gotten sick of Orton in the Title picture. I agree with you about that. He's already faced everyone for the Title and it has gotten way out of hand. He should feud with someone he hasn't yet or hasn't for a very, very long time. He should turn face because he's gotten boring.
The WWE/World Title holder should be in the main event but not always because it eventually gets boring and repetitive with the same 2 going at it over and over and over. Way too much.

[The Sign Guy]

First off, I agree that the main fued and/or title picture doesn't have to Main Event every weekly program. You could instead feature them on the mid-card, still building the fued, and feature some up-and-coming mid-card talent in the main event, maybe an IC Title or U.S. Title match, or if the women's division gets good enough again, a women's title match in the main event (they pulled it off once on RAW with Lita and Trish), maybe under a stipulation.

On the PPV subject, I agree that title matches in the main event are the norm, but not always nessacary. If a personal fued is nasty and/or intense enough, it could main event the PPV in a stipulation match. It rarely does happen. Like at Armageddon 2005, Orton took on Undertaker in Hell in a Cell in the ME, and the champion at the time, Batista, was in a tag team match with Mysterio taking on Kane and The Big Show, and lost for that matter, which proves champions do not always have to win, sometimes they can lose clean. And if I remember, that PPV turned out very fine without a World Title match even on it, nevertheless the Main Event. i think the only time an exception should be made on that is at the three of the big four (Mania, Summerslam, Survivor Series), cuz we all know how the rumble works, and it shouldn't happen alot, rarely actually, just to freshen up the ME scene when things get stale.

[Slam Master]

I started watching just before Survivor Series 1993. I loved those days when the matches and workers meant something. The programming today, i.e. RAW is constantly repetative, the matches are garbage, they do stupid half-assed comedy routines, among other things. I like Smackdown, ECW is about the working of matches, and Time Warner Cable in my area doesn't carry WGN, which sucks. I watch it now out of optimism, hoping it will improve, or give me some shock factor but week after week I'm let down. I also primarily watch because of Shawn Michaels and the nostalgic feeling I get. I'm waiting for RAW to turnaround. I don't mind the PG rating so much, but each week is so repetative and boring, and Michael Cole makes me wanna shoot myself. They can make it interesting again with twisy turvy storylines and OMG moments, but it seems they lost touch of that.

[slowdude]

I began watching in Post-Attitude Era. I am neither Satisfied or Dissatisfied with PG Era.
--
I started watching 2004 when I flipped to Fox 8 (The channel that plays the wwe in Australia) and saw Kane in the ring. I was bored so i kept watching, Kane was rambling on about killing his brother then suddenly the lights went out and the ring started moving. I was like kick ass. A few weeks later twas Wrestlemania 20. I ordered it despite the fact I only knew who 4 wrestlers were on the card (Kane, Taker, Lesnar, Goldberg) and by then i already knew Lesnar and Goldberg were leaving after mania 20. What really got me into the product was Benoit winning and Eddie coming to the ring to congratulate him. I was like wow.

When I think about it, I've pretty much enjoyed every single year thought 2006 was kind of boring, 04 - 05 was got me into it, the new 07 - 09 current era is what's keeping me around. Mostly ECW (which I've loved since late 07) and Smackdown (Since the HHH went back to Raw). I'm satisfied with the B and C show. I'm dissatisfied with the A show though I enjoy the mid card they've got going at the moment. (We don't get that 4th show in Australia yet). Overall I guess I would be Satisfied.

[Arrynboot]

Vince needs to step aside and let Shane and Steph take over, he has lost the plot and the WWE main event and fans are suffering for it. We want new main eventers and he's not giving it to us, I for one wasglad to hear Batista will be out for a while because it frees up 1 more spot for somebody new, JOMO is getting great reactions and his moves are amazing, Kofi Kingston is starting to get noticed as is R-truth, we need these guys pushed to the top and soon because there's not a lot of time left for Vincess golden boys and were going to have no one left that's a credible champ.

[thefalcon1996]

I agree, Orton needs a fresh change. Who else is sick of Legacy... RAW has just gotten boring. I'd like to see a couple of heel/face shuffles. Edge would be pretty popular as a face.

As for non-title matches as ME's, I'm for it. WMXXV earlier this year hosted a great 17-0 match. I think it was about twice the length of the main event, which was awesome.

As for WM XXVI, I'd like to see Undertaker v John Cena. He's the one main eventer 'Taker is yet to face at WM, and I think they could sell a good match.

Actually, scratch that. In Cena matches WWE tries too hard. Maybe 'Taker v Khali? Could possibly work... what do you think?

[BIGJUICYNIPPLES]

i think raw is failing simply because of whats being stated before, how does cody rhodes getting beeten in a steel cage match in 2 minutes against batista make him look good, how does a viewer take him srsly as a future main eventer????

look at smackdown they have so many rising stars even tho i HATE cm punk he is getting pushed thru the roof, look at morrison he's looking great atm, and even r-truth is entertaining as hell, and is over as f*ck because he teamed with jeff hardy (tho he does get a huge pop as it is) so on smackdown i can see people like morrison/r-truth/dolph ziggler being main eventers,


now lets look at raw, matt hardy has a huge fued with jeff were he beets him twice in a row then losses 1 match after that fued he is taken seriosly but then wwe have him loose to kofi kingston/MVP in like 3minutes?????????? how does any1 take matt hardy sersly after that, MVP is doing great but yet wwe is not evne letting him properly compete in the main event, in raw's main event in 6 months the whole year has consisted of 2 fueds batista/randy ortan and tripple h/randy ortan, now theres also a new rivalry with tripss and ortan/ + in 4 months there will be the rivalry of ortan and batista again and it will most likly be for the wwe title, so by the looks this whole year will consist of 2 real fueds........

fans dont wanna see the same old bllsht over and over again, how about giving MVP a shot at the title and have him vs randy ortan and then out a spin on it and have him vs the returning hbk? sometihng fans havnt seen before, there are so many possibilitys and yet wwe chooses to use about 2 of those possibilitys

it's not hard all that wwe have to do is push them up there they dont have to feed ortan to mvp or anything just put them in a solid one on one, were ortan wins but mvp looks solid,


because if it comes to a time were both tripps and ortan a screwed and cena and bigshow are sitll in a fued randomly putting a midcard guy at the top will look weird and fans wont buy it,

[zags]

The problem could be solved if we only had one champion. Unify the the WWE and WHC and let that champ crossover on both shows. The brand split worked back when they had the undisputed champion, and it could work now. We'd see fresh main event title feuds and we could see big names go at each other with no title on the line. I like Orton HHH feuds. Actaully any feud HHH is in is good because he cares when he's involved and it makes good tv. The reason it's stale is because the feud is always over the title. A non title feud with big names similar to Cena/Big Show is something different. HBK feuds are with upper tier guys and don't have titles on the line and it works with him, why can't it with others?

[Razor Blade Dream]

The problem could be solved if we only had one champion. Unify the the WWE and WHC and let that champ crossover on both shows. The brand split worked back when they had the undisputed champion, and it could work now. We'd see fresh main event title feuds and we could see big names go at each other with no title on the line. I like Orton HHH feuds. Actaully any feud HHH is in is good because he cares when he's involved and it makes good tv. The reason it's stale is because the feud is always over the title. A non title feud with big names similar to Cena/Big Show is something different. HBK feuds are with upper tier guys and don't have titles on the line and it works with him, why can't it with others?

As much as I like HHH (I really do, his entrance is intense even though it's almost ten years old now) he really only cares to look good. Yeah, he lays down for some guys like Cena and Batista but other than Backlash when has HHH laid down clean for Orton? HHH is pretty much Hogan if Hogan was a bit more agile.

The HHH/Orton feuds need to fuckin stop. Let MVP, Kofi and for God's sakes give Matt Hardy a fuckin chance already! Yeah he blows on the mic and he plays it safe in the ring, but the dude really does bust his ass and gets shafted all the time in feuds. The Hardy feud could have been on par with the Bret and Owen Hart feud but it just fizzled out so fast by having Matt lose all the time.
Smackdown is giving guys a chance it seems, Raw is just plodding through with repeats it seems.

[un1earn]

I know you guys out there want to see the younger talent get a shot at main event status. I apologize for my fourthcoming comments BUT seriously, they dont have the look/attitude.

Miz - great on the mic but looks like a clown. Very difficult to take him seriously

Kofi Kingston - just needs some attitude to him. He looks like hes being promoted as a version of John Cena in a sense where they advertise him to kids.

I personally think R-Truth is the only person RIGHT NOW that they could give a legtimate push to and make it work. First they would need to have him stop singing his entrance song, and also give him a more serious attitude.

People love Orton not so much for his in ring-skills, or his mic work...but just his arrogance, his cockyness, the fact he feels untouchable. (the sick song doesn't hurt either)

WWE needs a more edgy personality. Morrison with that song, his character and his get up just doesnt cut it either. I think they need to make over these wrestlers so real fans can start to take them seriously.

[phenom4ever]

I think if its an interesting feud that is build great and has a lot of steam going into the PPV, then yes, it should be the Main Event instead of the title. But how rarely does that happen?

It rarely happens that the top stars of the company are in the top feud and have the greatest momentum going into the PPV.

I agree, take Undertaker vs HBK at Wrestlemania 25 for example. That match was main event quality, you got the two of the biggest stars in this business going at it on the biggest PPV of them all. And look what happened, it went down as possibly the greatest match in wrestlemania history, and wasn't the main event. I mean look at how they built that match up, HBK countlessly outsmarting and trying to get into The Undertakers head. In my mind, HBK vs Undertaker should have been switched with Orton vs HHH despite that it was for the title, because a match like HBK vs Taker comes around very rarely to me.

[localblue00]

here is my opinion.

The reason Raw is the same is because its on a Monday night and no matter what he will have viewers on Smackdown its friday night and people go out, so he can do exciting stuff there because someone can screw up and not be as noticed as if it were monday night

also. I for one am digging the whole John Cena/Miz feud. Giving Cena some time off from the main event is only going to make him stronger again when he goes for it. Also this is selling the shit out of Miz.

I am tired of seeing Orton as well, I am done with Batista.

Shawn come back feud with MVP, Matt Hardy, William Regal, HHH, Big Show, somthing spice this up. I agree with one poster, Spice it up.

As for WM is concerned. Shawn Micheals = Greatest performer in my eyes of all time. Ric Flair, Undertaker, Bret Hart, Stone Cold (mike tyson) what more does the guy have to do. I would love him to be strapped 1 more tiime. I would love the Cena/Goldust Feud. Goldust/William Regal would be nothing but pure wrestling. Cena/Hardy would be interesting, I would love to see MVP run in and cost Orton and start a Huge 1-1 MVP/Orton feud. as for HHH, let him feud with Matt Hardy, Big Slow, Kofi, Turn on Shane, who do you give the world title to, hell let there be another gold rush.I love feuds, that are entertaining, someone said 2 feuds this year well hell that is what is was a few years ago on smackdown Edge, UT, Batista. Even though John Cena cant wrestle his mics skills are through the roof. Batista couldn't even talk to a kindergarden class about why you shouldn't eat your glue.

Legacydont care about them. I loved watching the Colons. I have always like Carlito he has that Swagger.

speaking of Swagger I am a huge fan of, as for Ziggler,

Vince is getting boring and he doesnt care.

what is his deal with Mickie James why wont he push her and give her the title again, is it because she refused to pose nude? or not sleep with Him?

[NYSandman]

Let's put this in perspective. A young wrestler wants to make it big and perform in front of as many people as possible. Well, where else can you go?

At this point, a wrestler can't make huge money in TNA or ROH, and certainly cannot get the fame. I don't think it's a matter of how hard the working conditions are, it is a matter of having no other choice.

IF YOU CAN'T MAKE IT WITH THE MCMAHONS, YOU CAN'T MAKE IT IN WRESTLING! Period. Where else are you going to go?

I can't say how bad it is working for WWE, as I've never worked there before. I think a lot of ex-WWE talent that shoots on WWE is doing so because they're pissed they got fired. Let's face it. You don't publicly talk shit about your boss WHILE you're still working there. And jobless people tend to be bitter.

Mick Foley chewwed on the preverbial WWE dick in his first two books, and then started complaining in his third. I love Mick as a wrestler and author, but you can see how "Uncle Vince" went from Jesus when Mick was happy, to Satan when shit wasn't going his way.

And, look at all the old retired wrestlers Vince has on staff in some capacity. He doesn't have to do that.

I think, deep down, it's like this. If you do the right thing, try very, very hard, and stay loyal to the company, Vince will always back you. But, if you mess up, Vince will become your worst nightmare.

Vince built this empire from scratch, and I believe he suffered and worked his ass off in the beginning. Put yourself in his shoes. Yeah, he messes up a lot too. But, you can shit on your own carpet. Just don't let anyone else do it. :)

[Razor]

Any fan of wrestling, and even the wrestlers themselves know that if you want to make it big in Wrestling, the WWE is where its at. Yet we see things like:

Breaking News: WWE Releases Umaga
Breaking News: WWE Releases Mr. Kennedy

And so on...

So what?

That's it?


Actually, yes. The WWE is a company who employs private contractors. They can let the contractors go whenever, and wherever they want. and yes, before you say it, I'm sure they have it in the contracts that the WWE can terminate the contract when they feel need, and the wrestler can negotiate out of his contract if they want. Which is what I think Umaga did.


Just because of some random reason when somone is on the top of their game, fire them?


Actually, at the very most, only Umaga was at the top of his game. Kennedy was in no way at the top of his game. He'd been shelved for the last what, year? And in his return match he not only tweaked his wrist, he almost injured the WWE champion. You know, like when he tore Cena's pectoral muscle on that back body drop. Kennedy was an injury machine. He was not at the top of his game.


Is WWE trying to get people to hate him?
2 guys who were about to get a push, and now their gone.
It may not seem like much now, but wait till it hits the bigger names.
Like Kane, or Swagger, or even Rey Mysterio after he drops the mask.


Lulz. First of all, people aren't going to hate WWE because they fired a few wrestlers. And anyone who does needs to realize that the WWE is a company that has the right to fire who they please.

Secondly, Umaga wasn't getting a push. He was losing to Punk. That's not a push, that's being jobbed out. Kennedy was going to get a push, until he almost injured the WWE champion.

Third of all, the WWE isn't going to just cut the bigger names. Why? Because unlike Kennedy and Umaga, they get reactions from the crowd. Umaga got a bigger reaction than Kennedy.

Fourth, Swagger shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Mysterio and Kane. Swagger is good, but he's not on the same plane as two established main eventers. And besides that, those three aren't just getting cut. If Kane gets let go, it's because he asked for his release. Same for Mysterio. and Swagger.


True or False? The WWE is the most horrible wrestling organization to work in?

False. The WWE is a company that fires people for good reasons, and sometimes bad reasons. I can't comment on Umaga's release, I'd just be speculating because no one knows what happened. Kennedy? He was a injury machine and deserved his release. Come to me saying the WWE just cuts superstars when they cut Triple H or Cena for no reason. Then you'll have something.

[Lord Sidious]

until vince's death or retirement. WWE will NOT change for me,you or anyone on these boards. MY2Cents

"The Audience of One" strikes again. My opinion is that Vince can only get away with saying "the fans are wrong, not me" for so long. Once his profits start reaching a certain point, and when ratings start hitting an all-time low, then he will be forced to change.

I've maintained for a long time now, that the best thing he could possibly do is eliminate himself from all involvement in the Creative Team. Here, Raw is supposed to be geared towards people like me, who like storylines, characters, and what not ... and I still think the show absolutely sucks. Hence, why I don't watch it anymore. Smackdown bores me to tears, as I don't watch and never have watched wrestling, just for the wrestling.

And of course, I don't watch ECW or Superstars, either.

But in addressing the Main Event problem, I think he has a serious problem with future Main Eventers. When HBK, Taker, and even Batista retire, I just don't see CM Punk, Morrison, and MVP reaching their height of success. They just are no where in the same league as HBK and Taker, and I dare say they aren't even in the same league as John Cena. Cena, their marquee star, is the least over Main Star that WWE has ever had ... in comparing him with Hogan, Rock, and Austin.

WWE will still get by with Triple H, Cena, Orton, Jericho, Morrison, and MVP ... but I just see the interest in the overall product continuing to die, because they simply do not have that breakout star anymore, that can carry the promotion on his own.

EDIT: And I would just like to congratulate myself because as of this post, I am no longer a "Comedy Jobber For Life". I have just won the WWE Diva's Championship.

[suneeboy]

We hear a lot of complaints about the PG Rating, On-Air Talent, Vinces Ego, etc., but is the real problem over saturation of the product? There are 6 hours of WWE programming per week. A PPV basically every 3 weeks, which makes 2 in a month on some cases (June being one of them).

Is there a proper amount of time to develop storylines and have viewers connect with the characters for the Pay Per Views? Are there too many Pay Per Views? Are there too many hours of WWE programming on television?

I think the storylines haven't been as good as we have come to expect because they don't have enough time to draw out the stories. Also, wrestlers cannot stay healthy long enough because they work such intense schedules. They are unable to put on a great show week in and week out, for one simple reason....burnout.

We talk about the PG rating, Wrestling, Announcers, PPVs, and a slue of other things. Is the real problem over saturation? Scarcity increases value. Is there just TOO much wrestling out there for us to even care like we used to?

[The Instant Classic91]

This is something ive been saying for far too long, there is just too much wwe programming on television right now.
Take this fortnight for example, sunday 7th to saturday 20th, by that saturday there will have been 16 hours of primary programming (PPV, Raw, ECW, Superstars, SD!) and that doesnt include the secondary programming you see floating around (Bottom line, Afterburn, Vintage Collection etc).

My point is this, when wrestling like any other programme is on once even twice a week people can make time for it, build they're day around it, but this isnt possible every night of the week, people have things to do, so they are forced to miss some programming, meaning they miss possibly crucial aspects of the storyline, and when people miss programming and story building they stop caring about those stories and thus are not interested in watching any of the programming.

WWE programming on every night of the week, as it apparently will be soon, is counter productive, more programming means less viewers.

[The Love Song Writer]

I'll agree over-saturation could be thought of as a problem when talking of the products quality, but it's my belief that lack of solid competition is the KEY component to the products lack of quality

[rkoshouldvewon]

I think you're absolutely correct in the assessment that there is far too many hours of WWE programming. And the quality does not warrant it. Smackdown is just fine by me, I think it's a great show with solid storylines and talent. Hell, they're even putting over Dolph Ziggler who's got loads of talent and fire. Raw on the other hand is absolutely horrendous. They don't need the 2 hours anymore because about 45 minutes of the show is worth watching. ECW is ok, but still has a lot of garbage on it (Mark Henry/Atlas). I'd like to see just 2 shows a week (Raw and SD) and only 10 pay per views a year.

[MyselfTheThird]

This is an interesting point... And it totally makes sense. Breaking up one of the brands (my pick is ECW) would increase the quality of wrestling on both shows, since the talent isn't spread out as thin. I would also move Superstars to a Saturday or Sunday night spot, maybe even a Saturday Morning slot for the grade-school crowd WWE seems to be marketing towards anyway.

I would also make purple a fruit.

[rkoshouldvewon]

For full disclosure, I love Randy Orton and I think HHH gets a little too much heat.
That being said...
Legacy is quite possibly the worst and least successful stable I've ever seen (even the bWo was more popular). WWE doesn't allow Rhodes/Dibase any ring time to beat the shit out of Primo/Carlito, Cryme Tyme, etc. Instead they have to just hold RANDOM_MAIN_EVENTER down for RKO.
It's sad and maybe somewhat paradoxical but the future looks dire for the WWE. While it's true they have some great younger talent (Kofi, Punk, Morrison, and even Miz), NONE OF THEM [besides maybe Miz because of the anti-cena stuff] connects with the crowd. I hate to sound like a broken record but the Rock, Austin, Hunter, HBK, Taker, nWo, Jeff Hardy, Edge all connected with the crowd. Remember the days when HBK would return post-WM14? The huge pop he'd receive. Compare that to someone like Kennedy or even Christian (who I like a lot) who returned and barely got a crowd response. That's partly because the newer fans probably don't remember Christian from the 5-second-pose days, but certainly Kennedy has been around more recently than Christian and he got a mild response when he returned. Its both the wrestlers' faults for not developing their own characters well and the WWE management/Vince who have no real interest in developing new stars because the top 3-4 faces make them a crap load of money and that's the bottom line.
And as much as I like the Jericho/Rey storyline... they already feuded back in WCW and Rey's already had the mask taken off.
If all the reports are true that Vince likes the campy, cheesey type of 'comedy' we see on Raw, then he needs to get the fuck out. No one laughs, not at home and not in the arena from what I can hear.
Santino is probably the exception as he is SO over with the crowd. Capitalize on this.. and not w/ merch. Make him into a legit wrestler. He knows MMA and he can actually get it done in the ring if you let him. He has true star power, but he's not being pushed to the moon -- even though you put the title on Batista who's f'n "injured" or suspended, no one really knows. And stop making Brian Kendrick look like a douche.. let him create his character and give him more mic time.
And if I had my way WWE would fire half the roster and 90% of the Divas.

[Razor]

We hear a lot of complaints about the PG Rating, On-Air Talent, Vinces Ego, etc., but is the real problem over saturation of the product? There are 6 hours of WWE programming per week. A PPV basically every 3 weeks, which makes 2 in a month on some cases (June being one of them).


Huh. Here I thought ECW got 2 hours. That must reflect on how long it's been since I've seen an episode. I should get on that.

Is there a proper amount of time to develop storylines and have viewers connect with the characters for the Pay Per Views? Are there too many Pay Per Views? Are there too many hours of WWE programming on television?

This gets into the PPV argument. I've always been a proponent of cutting the amount of PPVs down. We don't need 8 counting from The Bash to Armageddon in December. That 2 a month, basically. Way too many. But, you know, these PPVs make money. If they're making money, someone wants to see them I suppose. that means someone is connecting with the characters.

I think the storylines haven't been as good as we have come to expect because they don't have enough time to draw out the stories. Also, wrestlers cannot stay healthy long enough because they work such intense schedules. They are unable to put on a great show week in and week out, for one simple reason....burnout.

Well, there just isn't enough time to draw the feud for the ppv. However, that is no excuse for the feud being shit. Jericho pulled a great feud from Michaels even with this jankety ppv schedule. Cena routinely pulls out good to great feuds. I blame it more on the wrestlers not being able to pull the crowd in and keep them there. Take Miz for instance. He had the crowd booing him in his promo for a good 2-3 minutes. After that, he lost them.

The only wrestlers currently out on injuries are whom? Batista, HBK, Undertaker? Batista tore that muscle because he came back too soon, I'm sure of it. HBK has had those back problems forever, and Undertaker is simply too old. He had hip surgery because he's hella old and has been wrestling for 20 something years. I'm probably missing a few, but there aren't as many as you make out.

We talk about the PG rating, Wrestling, Announcers, PPVs, and a slue of other things. Is the real problem over saturation? Scarcity increases value. Is there just TOO much wrestling out there for us to even care like we used to?

I call the real problem as a lack of actual ability to draw reactions. The main-event players (excluding Orton) can do it. That's why they're main-event. I simply couldn't tell you why Orton is still there. He can't get that crowd to consistently boo him for the life of him.

But really. MVP is sort of picking up steam. Miz could if he'd just keep that crowd during a promo. Kofi has the "BOOM BOOM" pop, but he too often has to go to the jumps for a pop. Matt lost them, Regal is hit and miss.

Then there's Smackdown and ECW, who basically have the same problems. The mid-card can't keep the crowd, and everyone is getting tired of the main-event feuds that play and play and play and play.

[deanerandterry]

I definetely feel that over saturation is not a good thing but I don't think it is the source of the problem. I feel everything is todays wrestling feels rushed, characters are pushed to the moon the second they step foot in a ring (Carlito won the US title in his 1st match, even your best superstar in the 80's wasn't pushed like that except for Hogan, but Hogan DID pay his dues just not in the WWE). The storylines don't get developed enough so you don't feel an emotional connection with the characters or the storyline (I swear I can't count how many aborted storylines I have seen in the last 5 years), also alot of the matches feel rushed (Kozlov Matches) or move too slowly (Orton matches).

I feel the biggest problem is it is much more difficult for people to connect with anything going on because they try to hit a homer right off the bat, things need time to develop and stew a bit before the audience gives a shit.

Over Saturation is definetely part of the problem, but I feel the issue is much bigger than simply over saturation (I remember living in canada in the 80's seeing 3 seperate WWE shows on saturday afternoon (WWF Superstars, Wrestling Challenge, and Maple Leaf Wrestling), PLUS Saturday Nights Main Event sometimes. That is over saturation at it finest).

[slikrik84]

Sunday night a friend and I went down to a local sports bar and watched WWE Extreme Rules. I haven't been watching wrestling now for a quite a while, and all this pay per view did for me was reassure me that was I've made a good decision to find new hobbies.

Honestly the first match and the last match were the only two on the entire show that I enjoyed at all... and to be completely truthful... the only reason that I enjoyed them was because everything else was so horrible.

I watched nearly all of wrestlemania and I have to say that seeing two men who are approximately 45 years old have the best match of the night was extremely disturbing to me. Especially since I've been watching these two guys wrestle since the freakin 80s.

What the hell is going on with the WWE? Why do Vince and the rest of these geniuses not understand that I (and clearly the other 60% of wrestling fans that have been driven away since the attitude era) have no desire to watch roided up bone heads, wannabe gangster/marine/whatever, and "straight-edge" cheap shots win matches?

First of all, how gay was it that Jeff Hardy and Edge had the best match of the night but yet CM Fag comes out at the end and beat Jeff Hardy for the title? I get the money in the bank thing and I think that it's a cool concept but give me a break! Wrestling fans are not straight edge. Ever been to a wrestling match? It's impossible not to get a pint of beer spilt on your lap at least twice. Who thought it would be a good idea to get this "straight-edge" guy, who has no personality from what I can see, and give him the belt? The same belt that was worn by Hogan, Savage, Flair, Nash, etc.

John Cena and Batista have both been force fed down the throats of fans for long enough. What the hell is it that Batista even does? He shakes the ropes in a style that is somewhat mixed looking of the rope-shaking that Ultimate Warrior used to do and the little jumping and pointing thing that Razor Ramon used to do. I don't like it at all. At least Randy Orton has that arms spread thing...

Batista has matches that IMO are as bad as Goldberg or Ultimate Warrior. Batista and Randy Orton had the worst cage match that I have watched in my 20+ years of watching wrestling. Are you telling me that Randy Orton and Kofi Kingston would not put on a more entertaining match than Batista and Orton? Why the heck are guys with the ability of Carlito and Kofi Kingston not pushed when they are far greater wrestlers? I'd rather see the two of them either against each other or against Randy Orton any day of the week.

This is why WWE sucks now and is struggling to get 3.0s in the ratings. This is why they are not attracting twice that number like they did during the attitude era... not to mention WCW was pulling a number better than this 3.0 while the two of them were going at the same time... which means that roughly 65% of wrestling fans aren't watching anymore.

So that begs the question... why? Number 1 problem is that wrestling lacks the personalities. When John Cena, Big Show, Batista, Randy Orton, CM Punk and others with pretty much no gimmick are dominating the time of the pay per view it is bound to suck. Number 2 is, no reality. When Stone Cold Steve Austin was packing places it was because people wondered "what the hell is he going to do next?" There is no suspense on these shows anymore. When the NWO was "invading" Nitro, at least half of the fans thought that Hall and Nash were still working for WWF and really were invading the show (at least for a short period of time). Not to mention WCW complimented the time with great cruiserweight action, which is pretty much MIA in WWE.

WWE killed it's competition, sort of like we are seeing in America right now with all of the different companies being bought out by the government with these bailouts. WWE sucks because no one is pushing them to do better. They corner the market with their terrible shows and the only time anyone from the past eras from when wrestling was booming even seem to watch is if they catch a glimpse of someone like Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, Ric Flair, etc. This sucks.

Chris Jericho and Edge are the only two wrestlers in the WWE (that are in the main spotlight) that have skills BOTH on the mic and in the ring (at least the only two that are being pushed regularly). Yet Edge is pretty much jobbed all the time unless he cheats to win. Think about it, if the heels were as boring as CM Punk would anyone still be watching?

The WWE drastically needs to do something and I can tell you (might lose some credibility here) but until I see Sycho Sid come back (which why the hell is he not back) and powerbomb the Cena, Punk, Batista, and all of these other lamo's right onto the concrete... I'm not watching another second of WWE programming.

The worst part is the only other alternative is TNA, which still no one is able to explain why the hell they have a "six-sided" ring. That is just stupid.

Frustrated...

Bring back Sid, and tell Batista to stop shaking the ropes. Stop forcing John Cena and Triple H down my throat. It's scary to think that if the Brooklyn Brawler had married Stephanie McMahon that he too might be a 10+ time heavyweight champion... ugh.

[jsanders78]

I think the BIGGEST problem WWE, TNA and wrestling in general faces is living up to 1996 - (pick your date, mine is March 26, 2001 - when WWE bought WCW) I see it constantly on here, and hear it over and over from fans, well why can't it be like when Stone Cold wrestled, or The Rock, or when DX was around, or the NWO.

The NWO storyline, along with Stone Cold, The Rock and DX spoiled wrestling fans, particularly the ones who started watching during that time frame. As for me, I've come to terms with the fact that wrestling may never be as popular as it was in the late 90's, and I see an eerily similar resemblance between today's product, and the product of the late 80's early 90's (when I was watching as a kid).

Anyways, I don't think over saturation has anything to do with it. Even in the late 90's we had Raw, Smackdown, Nitro, Thunder, Saturday Night and 12 PPV's a year. Besides, IMO at least, the product was bad before ECW, Superstarts etc.

[hitmanhart]

I completely agree.

WWE has become predictable and stale. They need to develop guys with better personas, and they keep shoving Cena, HHH, Orton, and Batista down our throats week-in, week-out.

You're right, Psycho Sid needs to come back and wreck havoc on these guys. Kane needs to come back with his mask and dominate. Goldust deserves to be given a shot at the IC belt and maybe even a main event or two (they are completely wasting his talent and personality by putting him with hornswaggle and taking away his dignity by making him appear stupid). Santino is another guy that had personality, and what do they do? Make him a female version of his character? It really is disgusting how stupid WWE has become.

Christian is great on the mic, and waht do they do, throw him on ECW. MVP is clearly over with the fans, yet what do they do? Not even throw him in the main event yet.

I can't believe how low WWE has become. What a waste of 2-hours.


I also think that the brand-split is hurting WWE. Having your roster cut in half really makes it predictable for the fans to predict what the main event is going to be even before they turn on the TV. There are no more surprises, no more cool stables, no character development, and the mid-carders are just 'thrown into matches' without developing a solid story for them. All Vince does is waste all his energy on Cena, HHH, Batista, and Orton and doesn't even develop his low/mid card.

There are so many things wrong with the WWE right now, I don't even think Vince can fix it given how stubborn he is.

[Dave]

So for a while, as you all may have noticed, there has been quite a backlash against the WWE and the way is it being run from top to bottom. By that I mean, a lot of people are unhappy with the direction that WWE as a comapny is heading in. An example of this is: having the same 4 dudes in the title matches for the last 4 years. This is unacceptable and I know some fans are getting pissed off basically.

Now as we know, WWE has moved into it's "PG era". So in this thread do not just say "WWE needs to back to the Attitude Era". My question is, in the current state that WWE is in, what needs to happen to rejuvinate the product as a whole?

For me, what WWE needs to do rapidly is get some better young talent. I realise that they are always trying to get new superstars in but are they doing enough. Dolph Ziggler was the last one and where is he? They need to allow some room for the personalities of some of the existing superstars to shine through also. MVP, Kingston, Bourne etc are the future of that company and in my opinion they just need a little more time in the spotlight to get the fans excited again, before it's too late probably.

So for you what is imperitive that the WWE accomplish in the near future to reinvigorate the 'dying' product?

[ThePeoplesChampion]

I totally agree here...i mean back in the day i was like i wonder what crazy shit will stone cold do....or what will the rock say this week....i mean with the spilt u know the mainevents.....john cena and hhh/batcist in a tag match vs. orton/big show.....and promos...my god triple h ur from the hay day bring it back u use to have some good ones now its im the game the king of kings bow down....orton...i punted such and such in the skull...show im tall and fatt....cena no one believes i can beat hornswoggle but i will prove to every one i have fight and heart...edge and jericho the only enteraining guys now...oh and throw in the miz now....since he is pretty much saying wat everyone is thinking

[Razor]

They're doing it. They're starting to push up those in the mid-card they believe ready, MVP and Miz, and keeping the not-so ready mid-carders there to set it up transition of some under-carders. Santino can't move to the mid-card if the WWE suddenly shoves all of their mid-carders into the main-event.

The only real qualm i have with today's product is fucking Orton in the main-event. It kills me that he obviously can't carry the show's ratings and cut a half decent promo yet he's still in the main-event just because.

[Hulkamania]

and how about the lack of a tag team division? That's absolutely disgusting!!!!!! I'm still tuning in hoping for something new and interesting to happen, but when anything does happen, it get stale and dies down too quickly to even enjoy. I blame the writers for not creating the male soap opera with numerous sub plots, that wrestling used to be. Of course I blame Triple H, who probably has too much stroke. And of course, Vince, who has final say. I'm sure other's like Steph are to blame too because of having personal favorites.

[Hulkamania]

Edge is the best today in my opinion (mic skills, exciting wrestling, the look, the appeal). He is at least getting his spotlight though. Jericho should not be wearing IC gold. He should be top contender for WHC and main eventing.

[lenguy]

what a surprise....another wwe is boring/stale/predictable thread.get over yourselves.i agree that cena batista and hhh are being shoved down our throats but your just going to have to put up with it until wwe makes new stars.and the reason the cage match was so bad was because batista was doing the match with an injury.they had to cut it short.
wwe is trying to rebuild itself.there trying to get away from all the edgy stuff that made them popular in the adittude era.cuz vince was never a fan of that kind of shit.
there trying to make new fans.they find them in the kids.they cant rely on us older fans anymore.i honestly think there doing good by trying to start all over again.the storylines might not be that great.but the wrestling aspect as improved
bottem line.vince likes a full wallet.and kids have the most to offer when you have guys like cena.John Cena is the hulk hogan of this generation.thats what vince is going for.a more family oriented program.like it was before the adittude era.get use to it.its not going away any time soon

[Mighty NorCal]

You see, the problem is, the WWE need to do nothing. We merely have a huge sect of people on this forum who are stcuk in the attitude era, for whatever reason. The WWE right now has some of the most quality booking and overall talent that they have had since the late 80s. People need to understand that the WWE isnt really CHANGING, they are merely going back to normal. The attitude era was nothing more than a desperation move to try and survive the war with WCW. Back then, they werent selling WRESTLING, they were selling shock/trash TV. Now that its over, they are back to wreslting.

You want new ME guys? seriously have any of you ever watched wrestling? the shit doesnt happen overnight. How long did it take guys like Edge, Hardy, Orton, Triple H, The Rock to ascend to their spots? the better part of a fucking decade to get their spot. Even The damn ROCK, one of the best of all time, took YEARS and years, and mutliple character updates to make it to a high point. So quit fucking crying about the stale ME. the guys are coming along. they will be there. it takes time.


The WWE is fantastic right now. Some hair brained booking goes on from now and then, but true fans of professional wrestling enjoy themselves just fine.

[Monroe]

This was summed up by Arn Anderson a long time ago in regards to what happened in WCW when Russo came in...

"They were in such a hurry to push the older guys out that they forgot to pass the torch or to get them ready to pass the torch."

My opinion is that no one in the current WWE top tier is going to cause business to increase. Business cannot constantly fall and someone think that things don't need to be changed. Not to give away my age but Triple H has been involved, in just the title picture, since I was in my early twenties. I turn thirty this year. He wasn't selling shows when I was twenty. He wasn't selling them when I took a break from watching wrestling during my mid twenties, and I come back and he STILL is not selling tickets or shows.

There are numerous guys out there in Indy land that if given the chance, would blow most of the guys we've been stuck with today away, but some people simply can't let go.

Some people are also completely lacking in charisma (Batista), used their father to get them a big spot (Orton), and were pushed down the fans throats until they accepted them (Edge). But once it's decided that you're going to be one of "their guys" it's like the mafia. You're a made man.

I hate saying this, because Cena is part of the reason I can't stand WWE, but at least he is a draw. He isn't a Rock, Austin, Taker, Micheals, ect... but in time he could become one. On one hand I hate that idea, on the other, like it or not, at least he draws of his own accord.

As for the six sided ring it's very simple.

To differentiate between themselves and WWE, they scooped an idea used in Mexico. It hasn't worked out so well for them, most likely, because American fans aren't interested in adjusting to it. The six sided ring is harder to work, harder to tell a story in, and harder for those not trained in one.

But harder doesn't always equal better.

[slikrik84]

John Cena is not the Hulk Hogan of this era. If you consider inflation I guarantee you that John Cena doesn't make near what Hogan did and doesn't draw the fans the way Hogan did. Hulk Hogan is a household name and was throughout the 80s, 90s, and even today. 90% of my friends have no idea who John Cena is.... none at all!

I agree with an above poster that the lack of tag team wrestling is a huge problem. I also believe that the lack of lightweight wrestling (cruiserweights) is a big problem as well. The women's division is more pushed than the tag division and that's really ridiculous. If I want to look at women who are dressed like the divas, I'll open my maxim magazine, but for goodness sake keep them out of the ring! WNBA anybody? Slow, boring, and just stupid.

I also want to say that the other night the wrestling was absolutely the problem. It was horrendous. How can you say that the wrestling aspect has improved? My friend who went with me is not a wrestling fan at all and because of that pay per view probably will never give it a chance again. There were about 20 wrestlers on that card the other night and I wouldn't pay to see 5 of them... luckily neither one of us had to pay that night.

[Razor]

Sunday night a friend and I went down to a local sports bar and watched WWE Extreme Rules. I haven't been watching wrestling now for a quite a while, and all this pay per view did for me was reassure me that was I've made a good decision to find new hobbies.

Well, ok. But I'm going to be honest. Extreme Rules was relatively solid. The only real move I didn't find logical was Batista's win. But i didn't understand that until after I found out Batista was injured.


Honestly the first match and the last match were the only two on the entire show that I enjoyed at all... and to be completely truthful... the only reason that I enjoyed them was because everything else was so horrible.

Well, why did you find them horrible? Did they not get technical? I gotta tell you the truth, it was a night of Extreme matches. and besides, technical wrestling isn't what they are out there to do. They're out there to entertain the fans. Which they did. Maybe not you, but they did.

And part of why you didn't like the matches may have been that you didn't know what was going on. Not being emotionally invested in the product kinda defeats the purpose, seeing as though the wrestler's jobs are to get your emotionally involved in their feud. Otherwise, you won't pay.

I watched nearly all of wrestlemania and I have to say that seeing two men who are approximately 45 years old have the best match of the night was extremely disturbing to me. Especially since I've been watching these two guys wrestle since the freakin 80s.

I'll give you that. Wrestlemania 25 was notoriously weak. But I still enjoyed it. Because that's what I do.

What the hell is going on with the WWE? Why do Vince and the rest of these geniuses not understand that I (and clearly the other 60% of wrestling fans that have been driven away since the attitude era)

Well, the Attitude Era was during a massive boom in wrestling. and since then there have been how many new channels added to the basic cable package? How many new options of entertainment? and ratings don't take into account DVRs, do they? I'm not surprised the WWE lost so many new fans to the new channels, and the fact that they lost the casual fans they picked up just because.

have no desire to watch roided up bone heads, wannabe gangster/marine/whatever, and "straight-edge" cheap shots win matches?

That wannabe ganster/marine/whatever is the top draw of the company at the moment. His name is John Cena. You should get to know him.

I'm not a fan of that straight-edge dude cashing in his MITB match either, but Punk did that to start a Heel turn. It was meant to get you angry. And I suppose it did.

First of all, how gay was it that Jeff Hardy and Edge had the best match of the night but yet CM Fag comes out at the end and beat Jeff Hardy for the title? I get the money in the bank thing and I think that it's a cool concept but give me a break! Wrestling fans are not straight edge. Ever been to a wrestling match? It's impossible not to get a pint of beer spilt on your lap at least twice. Who thought it would be a good idea to get this "straight-edge" guy, who has no personality from what I can see, and give him the belt? The same belt that was worn by Hogan, Savage, Flair, Nash, etc.


First, I don't appreciate you using "gay" as a term for "stupid" or "retarded." I assure you, "gay" is not a synonym for "retarded." I just went and checked Dictionary.com in case I was wrong.

"CM Fag" the best you could do? And you call WWE uncreative.

In case you didn't catch it when i wrote it above, that cash in was supposed to launch his Heel turn. It was supposed to get you pissed off. And look, it succeeded. It worked with me, as well. Because I marked for Hardy winning.

I suppose Vince thought it was a good idea, considering Punk needed a Heel turn and the best way to turn heel is to steal the belt from the brand's most over face. Just sayin'


John Cena and Batista have both been force fed down the throats of fans for long enough. What the hell is it that Batista even does? He shakes the ropes in a style that is somewhat mixed looking of the rope-shaking that Ultimate Warrior used to do and the little jumping and pointing thing that Razor Ramon used to do. I don't like it at all. At least Randy Orton has that arms spread thing...

John Cena wasn't force fed. He was pushed to the main-event, and he's been getting mega-reactions sense then. You hear that pop when he goes to the ring? Yeah. That's the crowd loving him. If they didn't like him, they wouldn't be doing that.

As for Batista, he somehow gets the reaction also. Don't ask me how. But he gets it, the crowd loves him, so Vince gives him to them. Don't blame Vince. Blame the crowd that pays for tickets, merchandise, and PPVs.

And I find it incredibly ironic that you claim Cena and Batista are crammed down our throats, but semi-praise Orton. Orton is the one being shoved down our throats as a heel. He couldn't get heat if he were beating up an old man. Oh, wait. He did do that. And he lost that heat before the next Raw. He fails.

Batista has matches that IMO are as bad as Goldberg or Ultimate Warrior. Batista and Randy Orton had the worst cage match that I have watched in my 20+ years of watching wrestling. Are you telling me that Randy Orton and Kofi Kingston would not put on a more entertaining match than Batista and Orton? Why the heck are guys with the ability of Carlito and Kofi Kingston not pushed when they are far greater wrestlers? I'd rather see the two of them either against each other or against Randy Orton any day of the week.

First of all, Batista/Goldberg/Ultimate Warrior had one thing in common. They all had the crowd behind him. This isn't Olympic wrestling. This is sports entertainment. Get it straight now.

Secondly, they had a bad cage match because Batista had a torn muscle that is keeping him out of action for 4 months. Can't really put on a good match when you can't move your arm.

And I will tell you this. Orton probably couldn't put on a better match with Kofi. Why? Because Kofi and Orton couldn't keep the crowd into the match like Batista and Orton or Cena and Orton could. Why? Because the crowd cares about Cena and Batista, unlike Kofi. And I love Kofi to death. Also, Orton sucks. So no, he couldn't just because.

This is why WWE sucks now and is struggling to get 3.0s in the ratings. This is why they are not attracting twice that number like they did during the attitude era... not to mention WCW was pulling a number better than this 3.0 while the two of them were going at the same time... which means that roughly 65% of wrestling fans aren't watching anymore.

Actually, they pulled 3.61ish Monday. Second hour finished 3.8 or something like that. They were 3.0 during the lowest days of Orton's title reign, right up until Flair came back. So.

And once again, back during the Attitude Era they had a larger available audience. Today there are so many viewers lost to the 50 new channels and basketball/baseball/what the fuck ever else is going on that a 3.6 is incredibly good on a cable network. Just ask USA.

So that begs the question... why? Number 1 problem is that wrestling lacks the personalities. When John Cena, Big Show, Batista, Randy Orton, CM Punk and others with pretty much no gimmick are dominating the time of the pay per view it is bound to suck.

Actually, the only one with legitimately no personality in your list is Orton. Cena is the top face, so he's got to have something to his personality or no one would be behind him. Show has a character that's evolved over how long? Batista is a little shaky in this department also. Punk? Meh. He has that smug aspect to him. Orton is the one who is monotone on the mic and does absolutely nothing in the ring. He has no personality other than getting out of the ring, sliding back in, and looking angry/constipated.

Number 2 is, no reality. When Stone Cold Steve Austin was packing places it was because people wondered "what the hell is he going to do next?" There is no suspense on these shows anymore. When the NWO was "invading" Nitro, at least half of the fans thought that Hall and Nash were still working for WWF and really were invading the show (at least for a short period of time). Not to mention WCW complimented the time with great cruiserweight action, which is pretty much MIA in WWE.

Well. That's just a good storyline with a great character. Only thing is, if the WWE tried another Austin character everyone would say "Oh geez, I know this shit. He's just too much Austin." and if they tried another invasion angle, people would say "Oh shit, I know he's working with WWE still. Why are they insulting my intelligence?" While the crowd is out there eating it up.

WWE killed it's competition, sort of like we are seeing in America right now with all of the different companies being bought out by the government with these bailouts. WWE sucks because no one is pushing them to do better. They corner the market with their terrible shows and the only time anyone from the past eras from when wrestling was booming even seem to watch is if they catch a glimpse of someone like Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, Ric Flair, etc. This sucks.


First of all, the bailouts are nothing like the WWE buying out WCW and ECW. those companies were not competing with the government for control of the United States of America, lulz.

I do agree with the soul of this paragraph though. The WWE feels safe in that they have no real competition, so it feels like they're coasting.


Chris Jericho and Edge are the only two wrestlers in the WWE (that are in the main spotlight) that have skills BOTH on the mic and in the ring (at least the only two that are being pushed regularly). Yet Edge is pretty much jobbed all the time unless he cheats to win. Think about it, if the heels were as boring as CM Punk would anyone still be watching?


I take exception to that. First of all, Cena has very good mic skills and and skills in the ring. You seem to be confused, good sir, on what it takes to be good in the ring. Cena just wrestles a different style than what you like. Oh well. He still gets the crowd into the match, just like Edge and/or Jericho.

Oh, and Edge is a heel. He cheats to win. Don't complain when he does what his character is supposed to do.



The WWE drastically needs to do something and I can tell you (might lose some credibility here) but until I see Sycho Sid come back (which why the hell is he not back) and powerbomb the Cena, Punk, Batista, and all of these other lamo's right onto the concrete... I'm not watching another second of WWE programming.

Lulz. I thought you hadn't been watching for a while anyway? You're making no sense.

The worst part is the only other alternative is TNA, which still no one is able to explain why the hell they have a "six-sided" ring. That is just stupid.


I concur. I hate TNA. It's really quite jumbled.


Frustrated...

And confused, it would seem.

Bring back Sid, and tell Batista to stop shaking the ropes. Stop forcing John Cena and Triple H down my throat. It's scary to think that if the Brooklyn Brawler had married Stephanie McMahon that he too might be a 10+ time heavyweight champion... ugh.

1) Why do you have such a love affair with Psycho Sid?

2) John Cena and Triple H are soooo over with the crowd. Vince is simply giving the crowd what they want. You may not want it, but that's immaterial.

3) Lulz. The "Triple H married Stephanie and got 14 championships because of it" argument. Too bad Triple H being insanely over kinda butchers that argument.

One more thing. If you haven't been watching for awhile, how do you know so much of what is happening with the WWE, outside of the Extreme Rules PPV? You've been speaking like you've been watching for quite some time. Just wondering.

[slikrik84]

To add a comment about the six sided ring in regards to the comments made by Monroe, I will point out that TNA has barely reached the level of the incredibly boring ECW.

When I think of competing with WWE I think of this, "How did WCW do it?" They did it by copying the WWE format and making it better. They put on a live show (not taped like TNA where the spoilers are all over the internet). They used the same ring. Over time they brought in familiar people. They put on solid PPVs. The thing that TNA could do that they haven't is bring in the tons of experienced talent for a long term deal and have them put over guys like Styles. But having one or two guys come in here and there with no storyline just doesn't work. It's like watching a flea jump all around a floor... you don't know where it's going to end up which isn't good because it's not entertaining. They need to get a Monday night show and let people do what all of did during the Raw/Nitro era and flip back and forth between channels. Do the show live and generate interest by having continuity and bringing guys like Sid, Buff Bagwell, and others who've recently been mentioned as potentially coming back.

The current plan has not worked in seven years, and until they do something different... the result will be the same. Get rid of the ring, and bring in Bischoff. Get that Monday night show and go head to head with Raw before Angle follows Christian and jumps back to WWE. What those guys are realizing is that they are not even being given the opportunity to truly compete.

[Deus1138]

Over saturation? Yes and no. I don't think there is too much WWE wrestling on tv, but I think there are to many shows to keep track of. I have no reason to watch Smackdown if I watched Raw this week. Since the brand extension, you don't need to watch all of the shows to know what is going on. But back in the day, HHH could come out on Raw, talk some smack, and challenge the Rock to a match on Smackdown. Oh crap! Now I have to watch Smackdown to see what happens!! I have NEVER been a fan of the brand expansion for that very reason. MAKE ME have to watch all of the shows so I know what is going on!! I don't have to know what is happening on Smackdown to enjoy Raw! I can ignore either show entirely! And I choose to ignore Smackdown!

The number of PPV's also needs to be cut. PPV's need to be something special. It's not special when it happens every month!! The high number of PPV's makes the storylines get rushed, and burns out the talent. Take your time with your story telling. Build up some real drama and resentment between the characters!

Cut back the PPV's to Wrestlemania, SummerSlam, Survivor Series (Old style...all tag team matches) and the Royal Rumble! That's IT.

[mareek]

I understand where the topic starter is coming from, but I hate when ppl try to bring up the "old days" and compare it to today. You see the thing you guys have to understand is that the old days is just that........the old days. The old days aren't coming back, Austins not coming back, Rock's not coming back, heel hbk isn't coming back, bret hart isn't coming back.None of the attitude wrestlers are walking to a wwe wrestling ring to bring the house down ever again.We have to deal with the present and the present is orton, cean, batista,edge, jericho. Whether you like it or not this is what we have to live with. You cant keep looking at the past because then you can't see the future.

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Sunday night a friend and I went down to a local sports bar and watched WWE Extreme Rules. I haven't been watching wrestling now for a quite a while, and all this pay per view did for me was reassure me that was I've made a good decision to find new hobbies.

Honestly the first match and the last match were the only two on the entire show that I enjoyed at all... and to be completely truthful... the only reason that I enjoyed them was because everything else was so horrible.

I watched nearly all of wrestlemania and I have to say that seeing two men who are approximately 45 years old have the best match of the night was extremely disturbing to me. Especially since I've been watching these two guys wrestle since the freakin 80s.

What the hell is going on with the WWE? Why do Vince and the rest of these geniuses not understand that I (and clearly the other 60% of wrestling fans that have been driven away since the attitude era) have no desire to watch roided up bone heads, wannabe gangster/marine/whatever, and "straight-edge" cheap shots win matches?

First of all, how gay was it that Jeff Hardy and Edge had the best match of the night but yet CM Fag comes out at the end and beat Jeff Hardy for the title? I get the money in the bank thing and I think that it's a cool concept but give me a break! Wrestling fans are not straight edge. Ever been to a wrestling match? It's impossible not to get a pint of beer spilt on your lap at least twice. Who thought it would be a good idea to get this "straight-edge" guy, who has no personality from what I can see, and give him the belt? The same belt that was worn by Hogan, Savage, Flair, Nash, etc.

John Cena and Batista have both been force fed down the throats of fans for long enough. What the hell is it that Batista even does? He shakes the ropes in a style that is somewhat mixed looking of the rope-shaking that Ultimate Warrior used to do and the little jumping and pointing thing that Razor Ramon used to do. I don't like it at all. At least Randy Orton has that arms spread thing...

Batista has matches that IMO are as bad as Goldberg or Ultimate Warrior. Batista and Randy Orton had the worst cage match that I have watched in my 20+ years of watching wrestling. Are you telling me that Randy Orton and Kofi Kingston would not put on a more entertaining match than Batista and Orton? Why the heck are guys with the ability of Carlito and Kofi Kingston not pushed when they are far greater wrestlers? I'd rather see the two of them either against each other or against Randy Orton any day of the week.

This is why WWE sucks now and is struggling to get 3.0s in the ratings. This is why they are not attracting twice that number like they did during the attitude era... not to mention WCW was pulling a number better than this 3.0 while the two of them were going at the same time... which means that roughly 65% of wrestling fans aren't watching anymore.

So that begs the question... why? Number 1 problem is that wrestling lacks the personalities. When John Cena, Big Show, Batista, Randy Orton, CM Punk and others with pretty much no gimmick are dominating the time of the pay per view it is bound to suck. Number 2 is, no reality. When Stone Cold Steve Austin was packing places it was because people wondered "what the hell is he going to do next?" There is no suspense on these shows anymore. When the NWO was "invading" Nitro, at least half of the fans thought that Hall and Nash were still working for WWF and really were invading the show (at least for a short period of time). Not to mention WCW complimented the time with great cruiserweight action, which is pretty much MIA in WWE.

WWE killed it's competition, sort of like we are seeing in America right now with all of the different companies being bought out by the government with these bailouts. WWE sucks because no one is pushing them to do better. They corner the market with their terrible shows and the only time anyone from the past eras from when wrestling was booming even seem to watch is if they catch a glimpse of someone like Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, Ric Flair, etc. This sucks.

Chris Jericho and Edge are the only two wrestlers in the WWE (that are in the main spotlight) that have skills BOTH on the mic and in the ring (at least the only two that are being pushed regularly). Yet Edge is pretty much jobbed all the time unless he cheats to win. Think about it, if the heels were as boring as CM Punk would anyone still be watching?

The WWE drastically needs to do something and I can tell you (might lose some credibility here) but until I see Sycho Sid come back (which why the hell is he not back) and powerbomb the Cena, Punk, Batista, and all of these other lamo's right onto the concrete... I'm not watching another second of WWE programming.

The worst part is the only other alternative is TNA, which still no one is able to explain why the hell they have a "six-sided" ring. That is just stupid.

Frustrated...

Bring back Sid, and tell Batista to stop shaking the ropes. Stop forcing John Cena and Triple H down my throat. It's scary to think that if the Brooklyn Brawler had married Stephanie McMahon that he too might be a 10+ time heavyweight champion... ugh.

So much to say, so little time.

1. Mostly the job of a heel is to cheat to win matches. Otherwise he will be a face and Edge is "The Ultimate Opportunitst" so he is doing only what an ultimate opportunist would do.

2. If Carlito would have stopped being a crybaby a couple of years, it's most likely he would be in the main event right now. Since he teamed up with Primo, Carlito has betten much better which isn't saying that much nowadays.

3. HHH was already an established main eventer and held multiple world titles before he met Stephanie so your statements concerning that are ridiculous. Anyways, if Brawler married her, the only thing he'll be gettin is a one-way trip to Divorceland.

[mareek]

To add a comment about the six sided ring in regards to the comments made by Monroe, I will point out that TNA has barely reached the level of the incredibly boring ECW.

When I think of competing with WWE I think of this, "How did WCW do it?" They did it by copying the WWE format and making it better. They put on a live show (not taped like TNA where the spoilers are all over the internet). They used the same ring. Over time they brought in familiar people. They put on solid PPVs. The thing that TNA could do that they haven't is bring in the tons of experienced talent for a long term deal and have them put over guys like Styles. But having one or two guys come in here and there with no storyline just doesn't work. It's like watching a flea jump all around a floor... you don't know where it's going to end up which isn't good because it's not entertaining. They need to get a Monday night show and let people do what all of did during the Raw/Nitro era and flip back and forth between channels. Do the show live and generate interest by having continuity and bringing guys like Sid, Buff Bagwell, and others who've recently been mentioned as potentially coming back.

The current plan has not worked in seven years, and until they do something different... the result will be the same. Get rid of the ring, and bring in Bischoff. Get that Monday night show and go head to head with Raw before Angle follows Christian and jumps back to WWE. What those guys are realizing is that they are not even being given the opportunity to truly compete.

I would love to see TNA go to monday nights against the wwe. That would be like watching a midget fight a giant, the wwe would crush tna. TNA is ran by idiots they could have every single big draw in the wwe and still not go nowhere.

[Hayles]

So much to say, so little time.

1. Mostly the job of a heel is to cheat to win matches. Otherwise he will be a face and Edge is "The Ultimate Opportunitst" so he is doing only what an ultimate opportunist would do.

2. If Carlito would have stopped being a crybaby a couple of years, it's most likely he would be in the main event right now. Since he teamed up with Primo, Carlito has betten much better which isn't saying that much nowadays.

3. HHH was already an established main eventer and held multiple world titles before he met Stephanie so your statements concerning that are ridiculous. Anyways, if Brawler married her, the only thing he'll be gettin is a one-way trip to Divorceland.

1) But Edge has only had one world title reign that he has won fairly, and in a full match. Every other reign he has stolen in a 5 minute match, if that. Such heel tactics become rudundant after the sixth time.

2) Say what!? Carlito was never anywhere near the main event. He isnt that interesting in the ring, and his look was beyond horrid. WWE is a company based off of image rather than talent. How you could make such a statement is beyond me.

3) We can go on and on about Triple H and what or would not be if he wasnt getting into Stephanie's sticky icky. However, he has been main eventing since the 90's or early 2000's and his math quality has gone down greatly. Yet somehow he is still in the main event when there are others, who produce better quality matches, below him. There is something else beyond name recognition that is keeping him in the main events. Especially when you consider at the peak of his career, the WWF wasnt built around him.

[lenguy]

[QUOTE=slikrik84;1126286]John Cena is not the Hulk Hogan of this era. If you consider inflation I guarantee you that John Cena doesn't make near what Hogan did and doesn't draw the fans the way Hogan did. Hulk Hogan is a household name and was throughout the 80s, 90s, and even today. 90% of my friends have no idea who John Cena is.... none at all!

comparing hogan to cena.:cena might not make as much but its easy to compare the two.both cena and hogan were brought up in pg eras.both appeal to kids.back then they were all hulkamaniacs.they wanted to be just like hogan,he was a role model for kids then.in this day and age all the kids look up to cena.they dress like him,iv seen kids act like him.they look up to him.both hogan and cena are huge draws.hogan obviously a bigger one.but none the less.both still bring in the money.lol just to add it it.both had very limited movesets.i find them a bit similar on the mic to.they are both charismatic.so yes i still say they are very much alike in terms of what they atributed to the business

[Mighty NorCal]

I began watching in Attitude Era. I am very Dissatisfied with PG Era.


This is this option with currently the most votes. Gee what a fucking shocker on that one. Pretty much proves what I have been saying, and will continue to say. The people who hate the current product were merely mongers of the the trash era of Attitude. Ive said time and again, The WWE at that time wasnt selling wreslting, they were selling shock TV, as a desperation move to survive the attitude era.

Now we are back to selling pro wrestling, and all the guys who jumped in during the Attitude era dont like it. Well, too bad. YOU are the exception, PRO WRESTLING is the constant. Get over it.

[Lord Sidious]

I began watching in Attitude Era. I am very Dissatisfied with PG Era.


This is this option with currently the most votes. Gee what a fucking shocker on that one. Pretty much proves what I have been saying, and will continue to say. The people who hate the current product were merely mongers of the the trash era of Attitude. Ive said time and again, The WWE at that time wasnt selling wreslting, they were selling shock TV, as a desperation move to survive the attitude era.

Now we are back to selling pro wrestling, and all the guys who jumped in during the Attitude era dont like it. Well, too bad. YOU are the exception, PRO WRESTLING is the constant. Get over it.


And at the same time, that is the option with the most votes. I really don't know if they are the exception, or not.

You calling that a "Trash Era" is a bit elitist, in the very least.

Hence, why I have stated time and time again, that since both groups have a lot of weight ...

AND

looking at the fact that more people are dissatisfied with the product than they are satisfied by it (even more people who started watching during the Hogan Era are Very Dissatisfied by it ... I am one of them) ... that both groups deserve their own shows.

That may be what McMahon is trying to do with Raw, but Raw is absolutely horrendous, too. We want to see something that resembles Attitude Era programming on Raw, and what we are currently seeing is a horrendously booked, stale, predictable product.

Then, you fans who watch strictly because you can't get enough of watching the same scripted matches between the same two wrestlers for the entire two hours without any promos or anything else, can keep Smackdown all to yourselves.

[Mighty NorCal]

And at the same time, that is the option with the most votes. I really don't know if they are the exception, or not.

Well, er yea Sidious, generally, Attitude marks arent going to be the minority on an internet wrestling forum. Makes sense.

and I dont belive its elitist. Satanic sacrifices, thong stink face matches, Castration angles. everything BUT wrestling. Yea, I wouldnt say im being elitist at all saying it was a trash era, i thing im being a normal person with good taste.

This isnt really a debate on the attitude era, though, so lets not make it that.

Im merely pointing out, the group of people seemingly most disatisfied with the WWE's current product, and why. The fact also remains that we are back to normal now, how it was before they showed up, and how it SHOULD BE. Those folks need to get oer it, and figure out that this IS pro wrestling. Go watch Jerry Springer for your shit trash shock TV. They have DVDs with bare tits on them and everything. Seriously.

[Lord Sidious]

Well, er yea Sidious, generally, Attitude marks arent going to be the minority on an internet wrestling forum. Makes sense.

and I dont belive its elitist.


I think much of the difference between the two fan groups is that fans of the Attitude Era programming clearly do not like today's programming, or have become apathetic towards it ... however I still recognize the fact that people like you are out there and think you should be entitled to your own product.

However, those of you who like today's product, more often than not, lash out at the fans who did enjoy that particular Era by telling them to "Get the Hell out" and that sort of thing. If we can acknowledge that there are a large amount of fans who do enjoy today's PG Era, then why is it so difficult for fans like you to acknowledge the other side, and treat it with a little respect, as opposed to constant put-downs?



Satanic sacrifices, thong stink face matches, Castration angles. everything BUT wrestling. Yea, I wouldnt say im being elitist at all saying it was a trash era, i thing im being a normal person with good taste.


I don't know if people who watch wrestling watch it for "good taste" and "political correctness", and things of that nature. They watch it because they want to be entertained. Not everyone is entertained by simply watching two hours worth of scripted matches every single week, with nothing else accompanying it.

That certainly isn't the WWE I have watched since the Hogan Era. I would take the Hogan Era or New Generation Era over what I see on my screen today, and I have a feeling most respondents would, as well.


This isnt really a debate on the attitude era, though, so lets not make it that.

I have no interest in doing so either, as this has been debated back and forth umteen times.




Im merely pointing out, the group of people seemingly most disatisfied with the WWE's current product, and why.


The fact also remains that we are back to normal now, how it was before they showed up, and how it SHOULD BE.

How it SHOULD BE according to whom, though? There are other people out there besides you who have their own ideas about what wrestling SHOULD BE?

I simply forsee two different products which should be made available to fans. A wrestling product, and a soap opera product that contains wrestling. Thus, both groups comprise the entire fanbase.



Those folks need to get oer it, and figure out that this IS pro wrestling.

I think we know that it's pro wrestling. Every Era we've had has been Pro Wrestling. However, the variance in each of the Eras have been what accompanies the wrestling, to make the product enjoyable. Today's Era is basically ONLY wrestling, and that is why a lot of people are not entertained by it. Today's Era does not have the T&A of the Attitude Era. It doesn't have the gimmicks or characters of the New Generation Era. It doesn't have Face/Heel Commentators or managers like the Hogan Era. It has absolutely nothing, but wrestling, and that's why people are upset.


Go watch Jerry Springer for your shit trash shock TV. They have DVDs with bare tits on them and everything. Seriously.

Again, your definition of what you find enjoyable is yours and yours alone. You do not speak for what everyone else wants. It's the same mentality McMahon has in which anyone who disagrees with him "is wrong". Well, people can keep saying that the opposition is supposedly wrong, all they want, and encourage fans to leave. And that's fine. Ultimately though, who is the one who loses, by pissing off fans?

Now, what about those who like a little Jerry Springer WITH their wrestling? Seems to me those are the people who are outnumbering the fans of plain, old wrestling.

I can truly say that I have never seen a more boring Era than this particular one, hence why I don't physically watch it anymore. As I said, not even the Hogan Era and New Generation Era was as wrestling oriented as this particular Era. It is about the wrestling AND ONLY about the wrestling, today. All the storylines and characters have been eliminated. And that is clearly why even fans of the Hogan Era are pissed off at today's product.

[Mighty NorCal]

That certainly isn't the WWE I have watched since the Hogan Era. I would take the Hogan Era or New Generation Era over what I see on my screen today, and I have a feeling most respondents would, as well.

and see, this is what im not getting. How? whats so different? You have main eventers that are established and steady, mostly pure wrestling (although I would certainley not say thats the case with RAW)

tell me whats so different with the way things are done now, and how they were done in the Hogan and new generation eras? I see the exact same basics to be honest. I really dont get how its so much different, or worse. Your a smart guy. Enlighten me, please.

[Lord Sidious]

and see, this is what im not getting. How? whats so different? You have main eventers that are established and steady, mostly pure wrestling (although I would certainley not say thats the case with RAW)

tell me whats so different with the way things are done now, and how they were done in the Hogan and new generation eras? I see the exact same basics to be honest. I really dont get how its so much different, or worse. Your a smart guy. Enlighten me, please.


Well, I appreciate the compliment, but as you can see according to the poll, now people who began watching in the Hogan AND Attitude Eras are tied in being equally dissatisfied with what they see today. And those Eras were quite different from each other, as you well know. So, it isn't JUST the Attitude Era fans that are pissed off.

I wish I could stay up later and have a good chat with you, but I do need to head off to bed. I'll be happy to respond tomorrow, but I think what needs to be done is to look at both of those Eras, the Hogan Era and Attitude Era, separately and make two different lists for what occurred from each of those Eras. And then, compare it to today's Era. And there are A LOT of differences in the overall tone of the product today, compared to both of those Eras.

Again, I look forward to responding tomorrow, but if I stay up, I know I am going to be up for another hour going back and forth with you, so I am just going to turn in to bed now. Maybe someone else will be kind enough to carry on the discussion.

[τδιγλε]

This was summed up by Arn Anderson a long time ago in regards to what happened in WCW when Russo came in...

"They were in such a hurry to push the older guys out that they forgot to pass the torch or to get them ready to pass the torch."

My opinion is that no one in the current WWE top tier is going to cause business to increase. Business cannot constantly fall and someone think that things don't need to be changed. Not to give away my age but Triple H has been involved, in just the title picture, since I was in my early twenties. I turn thirty this year. He wasn't selling shows when I was twenty. He wasn't selling them when I took a break from watching wrestling during my mid twenties, and I come back and he STILL is not selling tickets or shows.

There are numerous guys out there in Indy land that if given the chance, would blow most of the guys we've been stuck with today away, but some people simply can't let go.

Some people are also completely lacking in charisma (Batista), used their father to get them a big spot (Orton), and were pushed down the fans throats until they accepted them (Edge). But once it's decided that you're going to be one of "their guys" it's like the mafia. You're a made man.

I hate saying this, because Cena is part of the reason I can't stand WWE, but at least he is a draw. He isn't a Rock, Austin, Taker, Micheals, ect... but in time he could become one. On one hand I hate that idea, on the other, like it or not, at least he draws of his own accord.

As for the six sided ring it's very simple.

To differentiate between themselves and WWE, they scooped an idea used in Mexico. It hasn't worked out so well for them, most likely, because American fans aren't interested in adjusting to it. The six sided ring is harder to work, harder to tell a story in, and harder for those not trained in one.

But harder doesn't always equal better.

I have given you rep for this, my good man. Without other successful wrestlers, HHH would never have been able to see so many years in the main-event. If push came to shove, and The Vince needed to do something drastic, HHH would be one of the first people pulled from the main event. This guy has and never will be able to carry a company.

Well, er yea Sidious, generally, Attitude marks arent going to be the minority on an internet wrestling forum. Makes sense.

and I dont belive its elitist. Satanic sacrifices, thong stink face matches, Castration angles. everything BUT wrestling. Yea, I wouldnt say im being elitist at all saying it was a trash era, i thing im being a normal person with good taste.

This isnt really a debate on the attitude era, though, so lets not make it that.

Im merely pointing out, the group of people seemingly most disatisfied with the WWE's current product, and why. The fact also remains that we are back to normal now, how it was before they showed up, and how it SHOULD BE. Those folks need to get oer it, and figure out that this IS pro wrestling. Go watch Jerry Springer for your shit trash shock TV. They have DVDs with bare tits on them and everything. Seriously.

I'm glad we can get this out of the way right now. When have you ever seen a fan of the Attitude Era come on here and say that he/she wished that there were raunchier storylines, that he/she wanted to see, for example, a septuagenarian get knocked up by a big, African-American man? I haven't seen any such comments. When people lament the passing of the Attitude Era, they lament the passing of better roster utilization, multiple (and intriguing) story lines, and a main-event scene that isn't staler than a month-old loaf of bread. If these problems were fixed, then I could care less who comes out to wrestle. Hell, WWE could buy the rights to all of Disney's characters, have their wrestlers dress up as them, and I'd still watch it if there was a good story line behind it.

So, let's take the focus away from WWE's PG rating, as I don't think anyone cares about that. Instead, let's focus on the actual quality of the product, which is piss-poor.

[Mighty NorCal]

I'm glad we can get this out of the way right now. When have you ever seen a fan of the Attitude Era come on here and say that he/she wished that there were raunchier storylines, that he/she wanted to see, for example, a septuagenarian get knocked up by a big, African-American man? I haven't seen any such comments. When people lament the passing of the Attitude Era, they lament the passing of better roster utilization, multiple (and intriguing) story lines, and a main-event scene that isn't staler than a month-old loaf of bread. If these problems were fixed, then I could care less who comes out to wrestle. Hell, WWE could buy the rights to all of Disney's characters, have their wrestlers dress up as them, and I'd still watch it if there was a good story line behind it.

So, let's take the focus away from WWE's PG rating, as I don't think anyone cares about that. Instead, let's focus on the actual quality of the product, which is piss-poor.


YES. fucking TSnugs, its about damn time this happened. I make the comments after people laud the attitude era, and then I proceed to point out that the attitude era was actually shit, with shit storylines.

The ME is stale? as opposed to the attitude era? How so? its still a general list of guys, who are always at the top of the crad, just like then. Just like, er, always.

Hogan era - Hogan, Macho Drink, Warrior, Andre, Dibiase, Earthquake, Twin Towers

New generation - Bret Hart, Diesel, HBK, Yokozuna, Undertaker

Attitude - Triple H, SCSA, Rock, Undertaker, Foley

Now - Egde, Triple H, Cena, Big Show, Taker, Batista, Orton, Jeff Hardy, CM Punk

gee shit wait...it looks like the main event level is FURTHER expanded nowadays. "the ME is so stale" excuse is total bullshit. If you want to point to that, then point to the oversaturation of programming. Thats somewhat valid.

So, please, since sidious didnt have time, TSnugs, enlighten me as to what makes the current product so "piss poor"

[τδιγλε]

YES. fucking TSnugs, its about damn time this happened. I make the comments after people laud the attitude era, and then I proceed to point out that the attitude era was actually shit, with shit storylines.

The ME is stale? as opposed to the attitude era? How so? its still a general list of guys, who are always at the top of the crad, just like then. Just like, er, always.

Hogan era - Hogan, Macho Drink, Warrior, Andre, Dibiase, Earthquake, Twin Towers

New generation - Bret Hart, Diesel, HBK, Yokozuna, Undertaker

Attitude - Triple H, SCSA, Rock, Undertaker, Foley

Now - Egde, Triple H, Cena, Big Show, Taker, Batista, Orton, Jeff Hardy, CM Punk

gee shit wait...it looks like the main event level is FURTHER expanded nowadays. "the ME is so stale" excuse is total bullshit. If you want to point to that, then point to the oversaturation of programming. Thats somewhat valid.

So, please, since sidious didnt have time, TSnugs, enlighten me as to what makes the current product so "piss poor"

Actually, the main event is quite stale. Firstly, you forgot to add three people to the list of the Attitude Era:

Kurt Angle, Big Show, and Kane.

Also, let's not forget that, in today's environment, there are two world titles to fight over. So, if the main-event isn't stale in the PG-era, then I think it's fair to say that it should have at least double the amount of stars in its main-event. So, that would be 16 that you would need. To be fair, we'll add three more guys to your list: Shawn Michaels, Rey Mysterio, and Chris Jericho. Gee, my math isn't so great, but isn't 12 less than 16? If anything then, the stale ME is far from a piss-poor excuse.

I'll gladly take any more arguments that you have.

[Mighty NorCal]

Actually, the main event is quite stale. Firstly, you forgot to add three people to the list of the Attitude Era:

Kurt Angle, Big Show, and Kane.

Also, let's not forget that, in today's environment, there are two world titles to fight over. So, if the main-event isn't stale in the PG-era, then I think it's fair to say that it should have at least double the amount of stars in its main-event. So, that would be 16 that you would need. To be fair, we'll add three more guys to your list: Shawn Michaels, Rey Mysterio, and Chris Jericho. Gee, my math isn't so great, but isn't 12 less than 16? If anything then, the stale ME is far from a piss-poor excuse.

I'll gladly take any more arguments that you have.

I did forget those three.

Also, like I said, its more of a situation of programming oversaturation than anything. I also enjoy how you avoided telling me what exactly is so piss poor about the current programming, in your opinion. Im still waiting on that, TSnugs.

Thing is, you still have a much larger ME scene than ever, and its ever changing, via the draft. So I dont see how it can be called stale in comparison to eras past. Oversaturation of programming? fair enough.

So, please. PLEASE. What is so piss poor aboit todays current product?

[τδιγλε]

I did forget those three.

Also, like I said, its more of a situation of programming oversaturation than anything. I also enjoy how you avoided telling me what exactly is so piss poor about the current programming, in your opinion. Im still waiting on that, TSnugs.

Thing is, you still have a much larger ME scene than ever, and its ever changing, via the draft. So I dont see how it can be called stale in comparison to eras past. Oversaturation of programming? fair enough.

So, please. PLEASE. What is so piss poor aboit todays current product?

What makes today's product so piss-poor is that there are essentially no story lines. If I remember correctly, there were only three really compelling feuds/factions last year: Shawn Michaels/HBK, La Familia/The Undertaker, and Glamarella. I honestly can't think of much else, bro.

For example, don't get me wrong, I think your favorite wrestler at the moment, John Cena, deserves to be in the main event. But, shouldn't we at least be able to answer the question, "Why is John Cena in the main event?" And, shouldn't we have a better answer than, "Because he sells merchandise?" Kayfabe, WWE gives me no reason as to why John Cena should constantly be fighting for the championship, or, for that matter, why Batista should be as well. Why is this?

Were the story lines of the Attitude Era raunchy and in poor taste? Undoubtedly, they were. But, they helped to keep things fresh and they allowed us to sympathize with the wrestlers by giving them a motive for their actions. For example, by the beginning of 1999, the Austin/McMahon saga had pretty much reached its climax, seeing as how Austin was now taking on a whole faction in The Corporation. So, how do they give closure to this feud (remember, closure is key here, and it is something that is sorely missed in today's product)? They introduce The Ministry of Darkness, with its leader, The Undertaker, having aspirations to take over McMahon's company. In hindsight, the emergence of The Ministry of Darkness allowed for three things: first, it ended McMahon's feud with Austin in a very plausible manner; second, it allowed a couple of The Corporation's members to turn face (or at least to 'tweeners) when Shane took over The Corporation; third, it planted the seeds for the McMahon-Helmsley faction that would come later in the year.

So, with these examples, I hope I have shown you why, relatively speaking, the product right now is piss-poor. In WWE, the entertainment is just as important as the wrestling; I think we can agree on that. Why then, does it fail to deliver on this?

[Mighty NorCal]

What makes today's product so piss-poor is that there are essentially no story lines. If I remember correctly, there were only three really compelling feuds/factions last year: Shawn Michaels/HBK, La Familia/The Undertaker, and Glamarella. I honestly can't think of much else, bro.

For example, don't get me wrong, I think your favorite wrestler at the moment, John Cena, deserves to be in the main event. But, shouldn't we at least be able to answer the question, "Why is John Cena in the main event?" And, shouldn't we have a better answer than, "Because he sells merchandise?" Kayfabe, WWE gives me no reason as to why John Cena should constantly be fighting for the championship, or, for that matter, why Batista should be as well. Why is this?



So, with these examples, I hope I have shown you why, relatively speaking, the product right now is piss-poor. In WWE, the entertainment is just as important as the wrestling; I think we can agree on that. Why then, does it fail to deliver on this?

Thank goodness. Someone with something tangible, that might actually be able to be passed off for an actual reason. Thankyou TSnugs :worship:

While I can semi agree with you on a lack of major storylines, I have to dissent and say there ARE storylines, they just arent nearly as bombastic as the ones in the attitude era. We are now seeing things cenetering more just aorund the title, beating one another for it. Which were the storylines back in the day, The Hogan days I mean. I mean....why was Hulk Hogan constantly fighting for the title? Ultimate Warrior? Bret Hart? Undertaker? same shit.

Bastista and Cena are title contenders becuase they lost their titles in under dubious conditions, and they win matches against high profile competition. Thats why Cena has been feuding with Show. Batista was put in the spot he has been in the last couple months becuase of the fact it was Orton who put him out in the first place, y'know?

More subtle, yes. Lack thereof? hardly. IMO. Yes, I agree you need to have entertaining storylines, at the same time though, I guess I dont feel I need overly complex storylines for them to be entertaining. "hey i dont like you, and I want to win the belt, so im gonna kick your ass" is fine enough for me.

You miss the complex mutli layered storylines of The Attitude era then. Fair enough. I still maintain however that those things were pretty isolated to that certain era of time. I dont feel like the storylines were overly complex back in the Hogan Days or The New Generation.

[Milkyway!]

Screw all this PG rating is going to be the end of the WWE crap. I'm about dadgum tired of it. Screw the bashing of everything on RAW, or ECW, they are both great shows. This is Milk's rant on how terrible everyones arguements have been as of late as to why the WWE sucks. Theres been at least 15 threads on all this hate for the WWE. The WWE deserves love. Milk, now shows WWE the love and respect they deserve by me.

Raw just put on one of the best Raw's I've ever seen since McMahon peed his pants when Austin fired that "Bang" gun at him. Yet I STILL saw people say that it was a horrible RAW, that wasn't very entertaining. Yet, the best injury angle I have ever seen happened. HHH returned, which was sorda a shock.

1. The Miz

The Miz got over even more than he normally did. This man is rising through the ranks faster than NASCAR drivers go 1/4 of a mile. His promos are simply amazing, and he was deffinetely one of the main vocal point of Raw for me this past Monday. Creative has done a wonderful job at booking him, and will continue to do so in my opinion. As long as they don't make Cena squash him when they actually wrestle. This could be Fued of the Year, no doupt.

2. Legacy

Legacy is a heel stable, with no compition right now. Yet everyone is continually complaining about how horrible they are. Even though they have one of the greatest superstars in all of the WWE at the moment, Randy Orton. And two men that are the future of the WWE. Furthermore, everything they have done, has been very heelish, and has been done in a very professional manner. Making me actually believe their constant beatdowns on everyone, is actually taking place. And at times making me actually hate my favorite wrestlers.

3. The Future of the business

Honestly? The future of the business is looking amazing right now. With Randy Orton, John Cena, Ted Dibiase, Kofi Kingston, MVP, Chris Jericho, Evan Bourne, John Morrison, Matt Hardy, Jeff Hardy, Edge, Christian, etc leading the newer generation in, and letting the old generation out. The WWE is in great hands. These few men can tell stories like no other, put on matches, and most have fairly nice charisma. How in the hell is the future of the WWE jeopradized when beaten down Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, and Batista leave. If anything it will do better. The few suprise appearances here and there, will cause merchandise to spike, and make people want to atend more of those mens hometown shows in hopes to see a little suprise appearance. This also allows new faces to step into certain scenes on screen, and off stage.

4. The WWE

Is the best wrestling business in the world today. No one can match the income they are making, the shows they are putting out, and the talent they have. I'm willing to say WWE is winning by a HUGE margin when it comes to any sort of compitition. So Vince isn't as in touch with the croud as he used to be? It doesn't mean hes writing shows for only himself. Hes trying, and his creative is doing a fine job as well. All things in the wrestling world are hit and miss. Sometimes, they rely on what they know might work, and you complain. Other times they take risks, try new things, and when they do, you complain.

5. PG rating

Is one of the best things, in my eyes, to ever happen to the WWE. The overall product hasn't changed much. But the fact is, blading is no longer a need due to no blood on pg rating television. Fuck, we've not really lost anything other than that. I've seen more innovative stuff in the WWE than I saw in the 5 years I watched ECW. Theres no need to complain about anything when it comes to the PG rating, because we've honestly lost nothing, other than blood. The loss of blood, is a gain in the wrestlers life. Actual blading can be dangerous, and severely cut a mans life if done wrong, or too much blood is lost during the course of the match. Its a dangerous process, and isn't needed by any means necassary.


So come the hell on what do you want? Are you going to constantly nag, and complain about horirble the wrestling world is? As you continually watch it, and continually post on wrestling forums about such manners? Its not like the WWE actually reads your posts anyways. You're only making the IWC look worse and worse at each passing day. Theres a reason "Exclude me from the IWC" threads exsist here on this forum. No one really wants to hear constant bitching, and complaining by any means neccassary. We're all here to debate one another, have some fun, and yeah point out our likes and dislikes of the wrestling business. But as of late, everyone has just gone to far. And I'd love to know why, or the reasoning behind such things.

[NtraintoBrooklyn]

ok i agree that the wwe will be in good hands in the future with guys like swagger,cena,evan bourne and the rest of them
BUT!
i have to disagree with everything else

the pg rating sucks i dont know about anybody else but i love violence,sex,and suggestive language on my programming
i started watch wwf/e in 1997 because it was so fucking entertaining i mean we had dx the oddities job squad sexual chocolate nation of domination the corporation stone cold the rock bra and panties matches,hell in the cell and hardcore matches
they would push the bar every week
i mean we had undertaker sacraficing humans every week for crying out loud
now it seems like we have to deal with hornswoggle dancing in the ring with kids or rey mysterio hugging babies in the front row, im not even gonna mention cenas stupid "fair" 2009 hulkamania gimmick
point blank the fans will continue to complain until something is done about it
we miss the real wwe
we dont care what the rating is as long as it goes back to something that grown adults can enjoy
sucks that we all have to suffer because linda mcmahon works for the board of ed.............smh

[The Todd]

the pg rating sucks i dont know about anybody else but i love violence,sex,and suggestive language on my programming

Well there's plenty of programming that does that. How would wwe be better off if they did that? they NEED kids to buy the merchandise. They can't watch a programme that has all that stuff in.

i started watch wwf/e in 1997 because it was so fucking entertaining

That wasn't a "normal" time for wrestling. It was aimed at kids before then. They were desperate then for ratings, now it's about money.

sexual chocolate

That was good?

bra and panties matches

Is it really hard to search for porn?

hell in the cell and hardcore matches

They are better off scarcely used like nowadays. There's more skill in a regular wrestling match rather than a spotfest.


i mean we had undertaker sacraficing humans every week for crying out loud

Just watch horror films for crying out loud. Wrestling doesn't need that.

now it seems like we have to deal with hornswoggle dancing in the ring with kids or rey mysterio hugging babies in the front row

So roughly three minutes out of six hours of programming a week you don't like. You fail to mention the brilliant match ups on Smackdown every week, the entertaining promos on Raw and the youngsters shining on ECW and Superstars.

im not even gonna mention cenas stupid "fair" 2009 hulkamania gimmick

Oh yeah, the most entertaining, most over, biggest superstar on the show. Very stupid.

point blank the fans will continue to complain until something is done about it

No, the fans still stuck in the attitude era will do. Plenty of fans enjoy the product. You don't speak for everyone.

we miss the real wwe

Get a tv that works then. If not, dailymotion and youtube are your best bet.

we dont care what the rating is as long as it goes back to something that grown adults can enjoy

Well Vince does care with ratings, and more importantly money, and he cares more about his target audience than you.

[SavageTaker]

The Attitude Era fans who believe and are in agreement that the PG Rating in the WWE is ruining wrestling are in my opinion wrong.

I started watching wrestling in the Attitude Era and I won't lie, I liked and enjoyed that era. But I am different than a lot of the fans from the Attitude Era. I realize that things can't always be the same forever and that's why I realize things need to change in wrestling for it to not get stale and boring. The PG rating did just that. Thanks to the PG Rating we are entering a new era in professional wrestling. This new era is going to be just like how the Hogan era was. It is going to target the kids until they reach a certain age. Once they reach that age the era is going to change again to something similar to what the Attitude Era was. It’s called a cycle and it happens in wrestling all the time. The PG Rating is getting kids to become fans of wrestling. Once those kids reach that certain age the WWE is going to change what they are doing to make sure wrestling is still interesting and those kids remain fans. In my opinion this is going to do more good for the wrestling industry long term than it will do harm.

Now with that in mind I have been able to move on from the Attitude Era unlike some other fans from the Attitude Era. I understand the business and I actually like and enjoy the product we get today. Yes, there is times that I will roll my eyes and question some of the different things done, but I am willing to look past those things and it they don’t lessen my enjoyment of today’s product.

I am going to go brand by brand and state the things that I like about each of them and I will only focus on their positives and not the negatives on each brand.

I am going to start with ECW. I like how I am able to see talent grow and develop on ECW and when someone moves on to bigger and better things I will be glad to be able to say that I saw Jack Swagger wrestle when he was just a rookie in the business. I also like that on ECW they are featuring some very good and solid matches week in and week out. The wrestlers are also given a nice amount of time for their matches which I think will help them in the future. Overall, I like what they are doing with the ECW brand and I can’t wait until some of the wrestlers are on either Smackdown or Raw in the main events fighting for the World Titles.

Now, Smackdown, my favorite brand. I really like that they have a nice mixture of talent. They have some veterans and they also have some rookies. I think it is a nice blend of people on the brand. I also like some of the feuds they currently have going. I am really liking the Mysterio and Jericho feud thus far. I am also liking how the main event scene is looking. As of right now I am really intrigued as to how things are going to be in the main event since CM Punk won the World Heavyweight Champion. Other than those 2 things I like everything else going on too. The matches are usually good and entertaining. I can’t wait to see some of the things that are going to happen on Smackdown.

Now as far as Raw goes I’m actually liking some of the things happening there too. Like Smackdown they also have a nice blend of talent. They have a few veterans but they also have a couple of rookies that they are building up. Thus far I have enjoyed seeing some of these rookies and can’t wait to see what the future holds for them. I am also liking the development of Legacy. Even though people say they get beat up by everyone week in and week out, I say you have to start somewhere right? I know if I was in their position I would prefer getting a chance to main event on Raw and get beat up by the top talent than not being sure if I am even going to be on the show that night. I am also somewhat intrigued as to what is going to happen in the main event now that Batista is out with and injury and Triple H has returned.

In summation, I am really enjoying and liking a lot of the things that are going on right now. I can’t wait to see some of the things that are going to happen in the WWE. I agree with you Milky in your assessment that the WWE is awesome right now and at this point I think the WWE’s future is looking bright

[NtraintoBrooklyn]

well done sir
ill admit smackdown is still very entertaining
i cant take that away from them
and you really think cena is the most over, and entertaining wrestler in the wwe right now?>
he gets booed at the garden everytime and is limited to about 5 moves besides kicks and punches
cena was entertaining from 2002-2004 more so as a heel
and yes sexual chocolate was funny

all im saying is that im a grown fuckin man
if wwe is truly targeting males between 14-35 then they need to step it up again
and no im not stuck in the attitude era im stuck in the tv-14 era where we can all talk like adults and not worry about covering our childrens ears ALL THE TIME

the wrestling is great in fact the matches have been better than i can remember im not complaining about the actual sport
i just miss the great promos,hardcore action, vulgar comedy and the occasional nipple slip
i that so wrong?
cant wwe just make a show that targets kids
its simple
wwe superstars every thursday 3 matches
dj gabriel vs zack ryder
hornswoggle vs jimmy wang yang
and in the main event john cena vs cm punk
for the wwe kids championship lol

im probably gonna get shitted on for saying all this but come on there has to be millions who aggree with me

[unique.enigma.666]

I completely agree with you man. I don't have the chance to watch it on telly because I don't have sky sports but if I can find the full shows I watch them via youtube and they do a great job. There are 2 other things the PG rating means we dont get to see or hear one is swearing. Fuck me I don't care at all, I dont care whether they swear or not. The other is the divas posing for Playboy Magazine. If you want to see naked women watch porn. Back onto WWE and your thread, you're completely right in making this thread because as you said people on here just post threads against WWE.

What I like is how they're not just pushing Morrison, Miz has had his fair shot in the spotlight recently aswell. He is annoying but so was Cena not long after his heel turn in '03. Miz can be a future US Champ sometime in the near future, hes being used properly as is Morrison whose had an awesome run since he first debuted, multi time tag team champion, ECW Champ, IC Champ. I like Legacy right now, the beatdown they done on Batista was priceless (pardon the pun), great way to write an injured guy from telly, which lead to Hunter's return at the end of the night which was great. Priceless becoming no. 1 contenders for the Unified Titles is a great idea aswell, they can make something great of a feud from Colons/Priceless, maybes end it in a ladder match at SummerSlam. SD! In my opinion is the best show right about now, even with 'Taker off our screens for the time being its doing amazingly well, Jeff is my alltime favourite guy, I wish he would've remained WHC, but with plans on turning Punk heel, I wont complain, in past feds hes made a great heel. This Rey/Y2J feud has been great aswell, giving the IC Title more prestige by being defended 2 PPV's in a row, with a potential third is great. The commentators aswell, Grisham and JR make a great team. As for ECW, I'm liking it, its gonna take me a bit longer to get into the Hart Dynasty faction because this weeks ECW was the first one I really sat down and watched in a long time, but they're impressive, Natalya as there mouthpiece is great, gives her more of a role, what I'd like to see however is the stable moved to Raw to feud with Legacy, imagine the feud leading up to a classic Survivor Series match? But whatever they do from here on in should be sweet.

[Little Jerry Lawler]

well done sir
ill admit smackdown is still very entertaining
i cant take that away from them
and you really think cena is the most over, and entertaining wrestler in the wwe right now?>
he gets booed at the garden everytime and is limited to about 5 moves besides kicks and punches
cena was entertaining from 2002-2004 more so as a heel
and yes sexual chocolate was funny

all im saying is that im a grown fuckin man
if wwe is truly targeting males between 14-35 then they need to step it up again
and no im not stuck in the attitude era im stuck in the tv-14 era where we can all talk like adults and not worry about covering our childrens ears ALL THE TIME

the wrestling is great in fact the matches have been better than i can remember im not complaining about the actual sport
i just miss the great promos,hardcore action, vulgar comedy and the occasional nipple slip
i that so wrong?
cant wwe just make a show that targets kids
its simple
wwe superstars every thursday 3 matches
dj gabriel vs zack ryder
hornswoggle vs jimmy wang yang
and in the main event john cena vs cm punk
for the wwe kids championship lol

im probably gonna get shitted on for saying all this but come on there has to be millions who aggree with me

Here we go again with the five moves concerning Cena. It doesn't matter how many moves you do, it's how you work matches and the crowd entertained. Shelton does more moves than Cena so are you telling me than he is better?

Mark Henry hasn't done anything in his career worth noting so Sexual Chocolate is just a big nothing to me. If you want the occasional nipple slip or vulgar language, go to your nearest strip club or watch some old Attitude Era episodes of RAW because PG is here to stay and there's nothing wrong with that.

[JenovasWitness]

oh boy i give up...........
it just sucks that we have to suffer because linda mcmahon wants to protect her career

I think Linda McMahon is pretty secure where she is, PG-rating not withstanding.

This is a good business decision by Vince and the WWE. It was what turned the WWF into a mainstream business back in the '80s. Hulk Hogan was a kid friendly hero that parents were not afraid to expose to their children. Therefore, instead of just one dude buying a ticket, a hot dog, a beer and a T-shirt at a WWF show, you had an entire family coming, buying dinner, buying foam fingers and title belts for the kids, etc.

The wider your audience, the more revenue that you will generate and the more successful you become. This is about MONEY because this is a BUSINESS. Does Vince care that the fan boys are unhappy that his wrestlers are refraining from saying the word ass on TV and that there are no softcore porn Diva matches? Hell no. And he is wise to not limit himself in that way.

As for hardcore matches, Hell in a Cell, etc. Lance Storm makes very good and credible comments about Booking 101. These types of matches have their place, at the end of a long and heated feud so that the confrontation can be settled once and for all. That makes these types of matches special must-see attractions that will generate PPV buys which equals a suvvessful wrestling company. Too many of these types of matches and the product just becomes a watered down, can-you-top-this spot fest.

WWE is going down the right road to secure it's future. There are several superstars that are stepping up to take the place of our favourite superstars from times gone by. There are several positives that we miss out on if all we do is fixate on what we perceive to be negatives.

[King Patrick]

I must say, I agree with the Milkyway!!! The WWE is awesome for every single reason he stated. There is nothing wrong with the WWE. What’s wrong is us as fans just always want one of two things, either we want something different, or we want something more. The WWE right now is putting out 4 shows, 6 hours of entertainment per week. That is roughly between 24 to 30 hours a week of Sports and Entertainment. Take that and add 3 to 4 hours a month for a PPV and you have 27 to 34 hours a month, plus the once in a blue moon special, whether it be a 3 hour Raw, or a Saturday Night’s Main Event and you have a lot of exposure for one month.

This PG rating cry that a lot of you are doing is really not necessary. The WWE is trying to sell a product. Adults are smart (or at least should be) enough to not “waste” money. Kids, on the other hand, want to buy everything. If I had a something to sell, don’t you think it would be easier to target the ones who “want this” and “want that” rather than someone who has to think, “Do I really want that or should I use my $20 on something more useful??” If the product “sucks”, like some of you say, then just turn it off and stop talking about it, or watch Orlando Championship Wrestling, better known as the “Alternative”.

Another point I want to make is directed towards the people who “compare” the Red show to the Blue show. I hate to repeat myself, but face it, Monday is the day where today’s stars shine. Raw is the flagship show and that’s why all the “Names” are there. Smackdown, although not proven or stated, is the 3rd stage breeding ground for the WWE. In case you don’t realize this, ECW would be the 2nd stage and FCW would be the 1st. Yes there are stars with name value on Smackdown, but people in this industry do not strive to work on Tuesdays. Believe me, why would anyone shoot for 2nd place??

As far as the future of the business, I truly believe, the only chance in history for the WWE to go bankrupt was right before Mick Foley won the WWE Title on Raw. WCW was the only company that could have taken them out for good, but guess what, we didn’t see Eric on Raw on March 2001, we saw Shane on Nitro.

[Hacksaw Highway]

I for one haven't suffered from the rating. Smack Down is the best best it's been in quite a while, and ECW is on another up-swing after going downhill back before No Way Out. Raw has been quite boring for me lately, mostly due to my dislike of Legacy, Batista, the Santina/Vicki feud and the burrying of Big Show. However, Raw does have plenty good, too. Miz, who I've liked since his original heel turn on Smack Down like 2 yaers ago, is finally showing that he's worthy of a huge push. The return of Triple H is also huge news, love him or hate him he's a damn good wrestler who can only improve the product. I miss the blood somewhat, blood is so effective when used properly, but it's by no means important enough to make or break a show for me. All in all, the PG rating is just fine.

[Dr. Steven JicKurtesy Mames]

Ohkay...

I have said before that PG ratings should be lifted, but I have to agree with some aspects stated. The WWE is doing fine as a BUSINESS to make MONEY, however the purpose of the BUSINESS besides MONEY is sorta meh...

The future is good... no the future is f'n fantastic. Lets just hope WWE's creative, management & bookers dont screw the wrestlers over & the wrestlers smarten up & dont screw the WWE.

Legacy is actually not booked as it should. They are starting to do something but meh... They should of built up Priceless a lot more into the uppermid card before joining RKO. However, lets hope all will be well in the end.

If the WWE starts to fix up the small leaks in their ship, then I will start watching again permanetly. But I will say this, the show Superstars is wasting away good potential fueds in one short match. Get rid of that show and focus more on the other shows.

[CH David]

Ok like SavageTaker, I myself grew up with the Attitude Era, and still think it was amazing. But I agree that PG is probably the best bet right now. The only thing I would add to it, since it is PG now, just come back with those tv promos saying "Kids, don't try this at home". Just to add to the safety of the programming and keeping kids safe. Eh that was a little bit of a tangent.

But Milkyway, I agree with you on all of it. Miz is awesome and one of the main reasons that I watch Raw, because this thing with Cena he has going is very entertaining. I just hope they don't squash him in their inevitable matchup. Legacy is the other reason I watch, as Orton is awesome IMO, and I like seeing DiBiase and Rhodes growing and maturing right now.

But you also asked what I want. And it isn't much, but all I want is there to be new feuds. I thought on Raw the feud between Cena and Miz would officially kick off, but Big Show comes out. I thought they were done with that at Extreme Rules. If it turns out to be a big feud between all three to start, I will retract my complaints about Show still going against Cena. And I would like the same for Orton, get some new blood going against him instead of either Triple H, Batista, and Shane for that matter.

[jerseydevil]

I think what alot of people complaining about the "PG" rating and being stuck on the Attitude Era are forgetting is that what Vince and the WWE are doing are just grooming the next generation of fans. When we were kinds back in the 80's/early 90's the superstars were more cartoon/superhero type characters and as we got older thats when the Attitude Era started with more "real" or "adult" themed stars.

Wrestling goes in cycles...in another 5 years or so when the kids that Cena and the others are marketed towards are older and have their own disposable income, I'm sure we will see a change in the product. Its just going to take some time for the next Austin, Rock, DX, nWo to develop

:nwo:

[avi01]

Bah I`d just say WWE has its ups and downs.
Yeah I`m a huge fan of the attitude era but I watch today`s product for what it is. Yeah PG rating, kinda remove some very entertaining stuff out there but doesn`t necessary mean they can`t put a good show under PG. They absolutely can. Thing is that recently, the simply aren`t.
WWE is not that awesome imo but certainly far from unwatchable. When compared to 98-2001, today`s WWE will always loose. But again things changed, players changed. But there`s a lot of problem in WWE today but it still has its good part.
Take Smack Down for example. Many may disagree, but imo Smack Down is the real deal. This show feels fresh to me. On the other hand, RAW is a bore fest and that`s supposed to be the A-Brand.
ECW? Wouldn`t even bother. Don`t get me wrong, it is a decent show but I`m also a huge fan of the original ECW. So seriously, I see this as a joke. Change the name then yeah but right now, this one is laughable to me.
Now the players. First the heels. WWE can`t complain about this. Orton, Jericho and Edge are brilliant. However faces, they are failing. Cena is like JR would say controversial. They push him down the viewers throats and fans tend to get tired of him often. Same for HHH tbh. He really gets tiring...specially as a face.Batista? Give me a break. The two faces I really like are well Taker and Michaels. Addtoo that some re-hashed feuds like Evolution break up. Meh.

So WWE is not that awesome. It won`t be as good as in its glory days. But it is a watchable product imo. However there`s so much fixing to do but unfortunately they doesn`t seem to realize it. I do believe the death of WCW brought the worse out of WWE. I wished WCW was still here, bringing some strong competition and getting the best out of WWE.

[The Todd]

well done sir
Thank you
ill admit smackdown is still very entertaining
i cant take that away from them
That's good. If raw really pisses you off just watch Smackdown.

and you really think cena is the most over, and entertaining wrestler in the wwe right now?>
Yep

he gets booed at the garden everytime Not by everyone though. MSG is one of the most smarkiest places the WWE go. No babyface gets a brilliant reaction there. All around the country Cena's pop is consistently in the top three of the night.

and is limited to about 5 moves besides kicks and punches
This is the worst arguement in the history of arguments. Hulk Hogan had one. The Rock had five. Austin had three. HBK has five. HHH has four. Batista has four. Hell no one has more than five unless you count sleeper holds, headlocks etc.

cena was entertaining from 2002-2004 more so as a heel
He wasn't as marketable though. That is what is important. Many people find modern day Cena entertaining.

and yes sexual chocolate was funny

Your opinion. I bet it isn't in many peoples.

all im saying is that im a grown fuckin man
Hey, me too! Well, in this country I am. Might not be in your country. Who knows?

if wwe is truly targeting males between 14-35 then they need to step it up again
Well i'm sure it is about age 6-35. If it was 14 it would be tv-14 (Ithink that's what it's called in the US). They're doing fine.

and no im not stuck in the attitude era im stuck in the tv-14 era where we can all talk like adults and not worry about covering our childrens ears ALL THE TIME
Not wwe's fault that the world is too politically correct now.

the wrestling is great in fact the matches have been better than i can remember im not complaining about the actual sport
Good 'cos you're right, the match ups now are sublime.

i just miss the great promos,hardcore action, vulgar comedy and the occasional nipple slip
Cena, Jericho and Edge consistently deliver great promos. Hardcore action is too overrated. I enjoy it more when it is used sporadically. You want vulgar comedy? There's plenty of that on tv or at local theaters. It was never brilliant anyway. Nipple slip? Really?

i that so wrong?
No. Except for the nip slip stuff. Nipples aren't hard to find.

cant wwe just make a show that targets kids
They do. Four of them a week.

its simple
wwe superstars every thursday 3 matches
dj gabriel vs zack ryder
hornswoggle vs jimmy wang yang
and in the main event john cena vs cm punk
for the wwe kids championship lol
What a line up! Problem is not even kids care about Wang Yang, Ryder and Gabriel. Hornswoggle is for kids, but it's for 20 seconds per episode. Is it hard to ignore? And Cena is cared about by everyone, that's why it is so loud when he is in action. And Punk's character is currently the most interesting. Is he face? Is he heel?

im probably gonna get shitted on for saying all this but come on there has to be millions who aggree with me

There will be millions who disagree.

[DeadMan5000]

First of all, who cares who is more marketable in the WWE? You guys sound like youre part or the creative team. You guys can't do nothing about it whether you like it or not. Shelton Benjamin to me is really entertaining to watch, where as Cena to me is like watching paint dry.

I have been watching wrestling for a while. Its not like I just started watching 2 years ago. I have watched for 14 years.

[The Todd]

First of all, who cares who is more marketable in the WWE?
WWE is a business. If they push non-marketable wrestlers they will lose fans, lose money, and go bankrupt meaning we won't have wrestling to watch. THAT is why.

You guys sound like youre part or the creative team. You guys can't do nothing about it whether you like it or not.
And so do people who say Shelton should be pushed. Where's the fun if you don't act like you're part of creative?

Shelton Benjamin to me is really entertaining to watch, where as Cena to me is like watching paint dry.
The guy who portrays the come from the jaws of defeat to win is less entertaining than a guy who loses five minute matches all year and jumps off a ladder at WrestleMania?

I have been watching wrestling for a while. Its not like I just started watching 2 years ago. I have watched for 14 years.
Congratulations. What are you trying to get at? Because you've watched more than me I am not entitled to an opinion. You have aired yours, it has gotten picked apart. It's what happens on a forum.

[Milkyway!]

and you really think cena is the most over, and entertaining wrestler in the wwe right now?>

That is what he said, isn't it? Prove to me that John Cena isn't the best worker in the business, most entertaining, and the biggest draw right now, and I'll or anyone else with half a brain will gladly tell you John Cena is in the top 5 best superstars to ever grace us in the WWE. Simple as that.


he gets booed at the garden everytime and is limited to about 5 moves besides kicks and punches

:wtf: Are we talking about the same MSG here? Or like, FTS's garden in texas? Because I'm telling you right now, I've never heard such a thing. Cena gets cheers at the garden everytime. The only time I really can't recall him getting uber chants (Since hes turned into a big star of course) is because it was considered "cool" to hate John Cena. Which was obsurd in the first place.

ROFLMFAO REALLY???? FIVE FUCKING MOVES???? John Cena is the best professional wrestler in the world right now, par none. Son, let me tell you a few things about a man named Hulk Hogan. His move set consisted of, a slam, and a leg drop. With some punches. Of course, I'm not denying the fact that Hulk Hogan could wrestle, just look at some of his Saturday night main event matches, he could wrestle. The fans didn't want to see him wrestle. Now lets relate this to John Cena, wait, you following me? I hope so. John Cena is like Hulk Hogan in that he does what the croud wants him to do, and knows what the croud wants. The croud, eats out of John Cena's hands more often than not. Technical wrestlers are good to watch, but your heroes Austin, and The Rock proved, 5 moves, can make a match.


cena was entertaining from 2002-2004 more so as a heel

Cena has been entertaining since day 1 honestly. Today hes still proving that with every match he put on. Every promo he cuts.

all im saying is that im a grown fuckin man

ZOMG yay for you!

if wwe is truly targeting males between 14-35 then they need to step it up again

Not really, they are doing just fine where they going with this. Some of it may even be a little unauthodox for the PG rating.

and no im not stuck in the attitude era im stuck in the tv-14 era where we can all talk like adults and not worry about covering our childrens ears ALL THE TIME

I'm just going to pretend I'm flying an airplane, and try to make sense as to what you just said. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, OH I GOT IT! Its a show targeted at children. Not 14 year olds. Children are a key part of socioty, and if we paint a picture that its okay for them to go around cursing, beating people until they bleed, and telling their teachers to go eat some pie, then theres going to be something seriously wrong with tomorrows world. These new wrestling days, we don't have to worry about that, at all.

This also has the chance to pull women into the wrestling fanbase. I don't know a single woman that doesn't look like a male, that watches the WWE, outside of ones who look like males, outside of this forum. I don't know about you, but most females enjoy seeing hot men, I.E. John Cena. But they don't really feel like going through the steps of gruesome blood, nasty talk, and the like, to see him wrestle. Now they can enjoy the same form of entertainment, for the exact same reason we can.

the wrestling is great in fact the matches have been better than i can remember im not complaining about the actual sport

Then shut the hell up, and stop complaining about the nasty stuff. This sport is about WRESTLING. Thats why is called World WRESTLING Entertainment. Don't get me wrong, entertainment, is a large part of the show, but not in the way you attitude era fans see it as.

i just miss the great promos,hardcore action, vulgar comedy and the occasional nipple slip
i that so wrong?

Theres still great promos, if you watched Extreme Rules, theres still hardcore action, they are targeting CHILDREN if you want your children to watch vulger comedy and possibly repeat it, then carry on, and seriously pull up your search engine and just type "Porn" if you want it that bad.

[RVDgurl]

Ya know, the WWE is kinda awesome. I could go into how Legacy is the best faction in all of wrestling right now. Or how Chris Jericho is so damn good it almost makes his opponents look bad. Or how CM Punk is ready to win over all the non believers (if they actually go through with a heel turn). But I'm gonna just throw out one thing that makes the WWE awesome right now:

ECW - Hands down the best thing about the company. ECW has a total roster of, what, about 12 or 13 guys? Yep. And they make it work. Christian, Jack Swagger, Tommy Dreamer, Evan Bourne, Tyson Kidd, Nattie Neidhart and David Hart Smith are all worth tuning in for. These names (with the exception of Dreamer) are the future of the company. That's pretty fucking exciting. And let's not forget that the WWE's best combination of announcer's call ECW home. That's right- JR, Cole and the King have nothing on Matt Striker. I hated him as a wrestler- but holy shit- this guy is entertaining as the voice of ECW.

[Razor]

Screw all this PG rating is going to be the end of the WWE crap. I'm about dadgum tired of it. Screw the bashing of everything on RAW, or ECW, they are both great shows. This is Milk's rant on how terrible everyones arguements have been as of late as to why the WWE sucks. Theres been at least 15 threads on all this hate for the WWE. The WWE deserves love. Milk, now shows WWE the love and respect they deserve by me.

So. We're getting a thread about how the WWE doesn't suck. Score. Wasn't there a few of these yesterday? I kid, I kid.

Raw just put on one of the best Raw's I've ever seen since McMahon peed his pants when Austin fired that "Bang" gun at him. Yet I STILL saw people say that it was a horrible RAW, that wasn't very entertaining. Yet, the best injury angle I have ever seen happened. HHH returned, which was sorda a shock.


You thought yesterday's was one of the most entertaining? OK. I suppose that'd be legit. At least you didn't pick the one 2 weeks ago. Abysmal, that was. It was the first Raw in 3 years I almost changed the channel on.


1. The Miz

The Miz got over even more than he normally did. This man is rising through the ranks faster than NASCAR drivers go 1/4 of a mile. His promos are simply amazing, and he was deffinetely one of the main vocal point of Raw for me this past Monday. Creative has done a wonderful job at booking him, and will continue to do so in my opinion. As long as they don't make Cena squash him when they actually wrestle. This could be Fued of the Year, no doupt.

I gotta say, Miz isn't doing anything. He had the crowd with him for 2 minutes of his last promo. After that, they didn't care anymore. Everyone seems to think the Miz is doing great because he's dissing Cena. There's a difference between saying what you wanna hear and being good on the mic.
This is not going to be Feud of the Year. Reserve that for the Jericho/Undertaker feud I'm waiting for.

And since when has Cena ever squashed someone in a match? Even when he goes over Cena makes them look great. Did you see Swagger vs. Cena a few months ago? Cena is going to make Miz look like gold.

2. Legacy

Legacy is a heel stable, with no compition right now. Yet everyone is continually complaining about how horrible they are. Even though they have one of the greatest superstars in all of the WWE at the moment, Randy Orton. And two men that are the future of the WWE. Furthermore, everything they have done, has been very heelish, and has been done in a very professional manner. Making me actually believe their constant beatdowns on everyone, is actually taking place. And at times making me actually hate my favorite wrestlers.


Lulz, Orton one of the greatest. Please, what makes him the greatest? Looking like he's constantly constipated? Being really angry? Pausing every three words? I know heels are supposed to take their time, getting the crowd anxious and what not, but damn. This goes past heel promo into horrible promo. Sorry, but Orton is the one thing I hate in the WWE right now. And not because he's a heel.

And Legacy is a heel stable. They should be beating everyone down 3 to 1. But it's when Priceless does nothing but looking angry that I'm forced to say "Why am I afraid of them?" and when they get squashed by Shane McMahon, then turn around and try to look strong against Batista, it doesn't make much sense. I'm just sayin'. Though I don't hate on Legacy for Priceless. They're starting to do something. I hate on them because of Orton.

3. The Future of the business

Honestly? The future of the business is looking amazing right now. With Randy Orton, John Cena, Ted Dibiase, Kofi Kingston, MVP, Chris Jericho, Evan Bourne, John Morrison, Matt Hardy, Jeff Hardy, Edge, Christian, etc leading the newer generation in, and letting the old generation out. The WWE is in great hands. These few men can tell stories like no other, put on matches, and most have fairly nice charisma. How in the hell is the future of the WWE jeopradized when beaten down Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, and Batista leave. If anything it will do better. The few suprise appearances here and there, will cause merchandise to spike, and make people want to atend more of those mens hometown shows in hopes to see a little suprise appearance. This also allows new faces to step into certain scenes on screen, and off stage.

I gotcha here. I won't whine about Orton anymore in this post. That no-ratings asshole.

4. The WWE

Is the best wrestling business in the world today. No one can match the income they are making, the shows they are putting out, and the talent they have. I'm willing to say WWE is winning by a HUGE margin when it comes to any sort of compitition. So Vince isn't as in touch with the croud as he used to be? It doesn't mean hes writing shows for only himself. Hes trying, and his creative is doing a fine job as well. All things in the wrestling world are hit and miss. Sometimes, they rely on what they know might work, and you complain. Other times they take risks, try new things, and when they do, you complain.

Vince is totally in touch with the crowd today. That's why he's making the money he's making, getting the ratings he's getting.

5. PG rating

Is one of the best things, in my eyes, to ever happen to the WWE. The overall product hasn't changed much. But the fact is, blading is no longer a need due to no blood on pg rating television. Fuck, we've not really lost anything other than that. I've seen more innovative stuff in the WWE than I saw in the 5 years I watched ECW. Theres no need to complain about anything when it comes to the PG rating, because we've honestly lost nothing, other than blood. The loss of blood, is a gain in the wrestlers life. Actual blading can be dangerous, and severely cut a mans life if done wrong, or too much blood is lost during the course of the match. Its a dangerous process, and isn't needed by any means necassary.


The only people who complain about the PG rating are those who wanna see sex, drugs, and violence on everything they watch. The reason teh WWE isn't pandering to them is because once they mature, you've lost them. The PG rating is the best thing they could do. They'll keep the kids, they'll keep the parents, and they'll keep the adults who are watching because it's what they do. No one is going to stop watching because Jericho didn't blade when he got punched in that spot or because Mark Henry didn't go Sexual Chocolate all over Natalya.

So come the hell on what do you want? Are you going to constantly nag, and complain about horirble the wrestling world is? As you continually watch it, and continually post on wrestling forums about such manners? Its not like the WWE actually reads your posts anyways. You're only making the IWC look worse and worse at each passing day. Theres a reason "Exclude me from the IWC" threads exsist here on this forum. No one really wants to hear constant bitching, and complaining by any means neccassary. We're all here to debate one another, have some fun, and yeah point out our likes and dislikes of the wrestling business. But as of late, everyone has just gone to far. And I'd love to know why, or the reasoning behind such things.

I don't like constant bitching either. Especially from the people who continuously threaten "I'm not watching this anymore!"...but continue. Or the people who constantly want a Flaming Table Barbed Wire Battle Royal.

And besides, we really only differ on Orton. That's because I hate the waste of main-event space that he is. I can't see what's so great about him for the life of me.

[Lord Sidious]

and see, this is what im not getting. How? whats so different? You have main eventers that are established and steady, mostly pure wrestling (although I would certainley not say thats the case with RAW)

tell me whats so different with the way things are done now, and how they were done in the Hogan and new generation eras? I see the exact same basics to be honest. I really dont get how its so much different, or worse. Your a smart guy. Enlighten me, please.


Before I continue, let's pause and take a look at the poll. We are currently looking at 81 participants, and I am hoping to at least get 19 more, so we can at least have a sample of 100 people.

Forget about the Era one began watching for just a moment, and let's examine how many people are Satisfied with the current product.

Out of 81 people:


Very Satisfied: 22
Apathetic: 30
Very Dissatisfied: 29


So according to the sample, the people who are Satisfied with the Product are the minority. Most people are Apathetic to the Product. And the Runner Up are those that are Very Dissatisfied with the product. And those people aren't just the Attitude Era fans, but also the Hogan Era Fans, as well. Very interesting.

I think this should be a clear sign to those fans that love today's product, that not as many people find today's product as enjoyable as you think. Rather, they are apathetic to the product or Dissatisfied with it altogether. Why do they watch? Out of blind loyalty, perhaps? They've watched for years, and it was a part of their childhood, and they hate to tune it off, altogether? Those would be my logical guesses. But I certainly wouldn't take their viewership for granted, like Vince seems to be doing.

Alright, and to give you the response you asked for last night. Ironically enough, these are the same arguments I have made over and over and over again on the Forum. So it isn't anything new. And some of my arguments completely echo Murfish's arguments, as he sees a lot of the same things I see.

Now, like I suggested yesterday, let's take a look at some of the things that were featured in each of the different Eras and compare that to what we see today. I am not saying that I need ALL of these elements to return, as some elements such as # of PPV's conflict between Eras thus making it impossible, however hopefully, this will provide a better picture of SOME of the elements I am looking for to be included in today's Era:


Hogan Era

Interesting Characters/Gimmicks

Prominence on Main Event

Prominence on Mid_Card

Prominence on Tag Team Wrestling

Ringside Managers- (this one is a biggie for me)

Face/Heel Broadcasting Teams

Broadcasting Teams that created excitement with the product.

One WWE President

4-5 PPV's a year, thus creating more prominence with PPV's

Obnoxious and Fan-Favorite Interviewers: Brother Love and Mean Gene

Comedy: Thanks to Bobby Heenan

Enthusiastic Crowds

A clear cut babyface that 95% of the crowd cheered for, overwhelmingly

Blood- (although, personally I wish WWE would start using capsules and simply try to keep it hush/hush from everyone ... Obviously, this is much safer than blading)

Debut Vignettes to help give character depth to new talent

TV consisted of a lot of jobber matches, and preserved the big matches for the PPV's





New Generation Era

This was the Era that began the use of the Entrance Lights and Individualized Entrances, along with very limited pyro. However the quality and effort put into them was far superior back then, compared to what we even see today.

Ringside Managers

Focus on all aspects of the card, similar to the Hogan Era

Some of the characters and gimmicks became even more complex- Goldust, Waylon Mercy, etc. (Although I was not a fan of the lame gimmicks (TL Hopper, The Goon, etc.)

Debut Vignettes to help give character depth to new talent

TV consisted of a lot of jobber matches, and preserved the bigger matches for the PPV's

One WWE President





Attitude Era

Again, a clear cut babyface that 95% of the crowd cheered for overwhelmingly

TV that focused on storylines while PPV's focused on the matches

Very, VERY enthusiastic crowds

An Era which tapped into Pop Culture

Intriguing characters and Gimmicks

Era of complex storylines that pushed the envelope

Sexuality from Divas

Elimination of Managers (again, a Negative for me)

Cursing, which added to the intensity of the feuds

Feuds/Storylines that went out on location, as opposed to staying confined to the arenas

Violence (similar to what you would see in a TV Action/Drama)

Focus on Tag Team Wrestling, however the Focus on the Mid-card seemed to begin waivering.

Debut Vignettes to help give character depth to new talent

Typically, One Authority Figure (Vince)





PG Era (my complaints)


Top Babyface is heavily booed in many markets

No more Gimmicks/Characters- Only Personalities ... and boring ones at that

Very, VERY few storylines anymore. Most shows have no storylines, anymore. The action is pretty much ONLY about challenging for a title or vying for #1 Contendership with a title.

Enthusiasm Level of the Audience is Very Poor compared to prior Eras

Focus ONLY on the Main Event

Elimination of Face/Heel Commentary teams

Commentators reduced to a bland, boring commentary style, in which they are told not to get excited anymore. Results in commentary very comparable to Golf Commentary.

A Tag Team Division that has been destroyed, despite having 4 television programs to air them on.

***Too much focus on the wrestling across the board on their shows. The drawback in this is that instead of using time to build storylines to increase interest in the feuds, they use that time to increase the match lengths. Therefore, people don't care when two superstars wrestle on PPV, since chances are, you've already seen them wrestle for free on TV more than a dozen times already, and they didn't properly build up the feud via storylines. Instead, they are relying on wrestling on TV, to sell more wrestling on PPV's.

Comedy that isn't funny, in the least.

No more Managers at Ringside. This, as others have pointed out, is a lot more important than people think. Not only did these characters provide more interesting personalities to keep the viewers interested, however they also provided numerous variations in match finishes, which has now been taken away. Interfering behind the ref's back, the chance to see managers take bumps after the matches (to the crowd's delight), all of which has been taken away.

No debut vignettes for incoming talent to help people care about them (once in a blue moon like Kizarny will pop up)




It's a lot of differences. And they are big differences. With the two largest dissatisfied groups being the Hogan Era fans AND the Attitude Era fans. But again, it looks like it's not JUST the Attitude Era fans that are pissed. And the most apathetic group seems to be the Post-Attitude Era fans.

[The Infant Finite]

Screw all this PG rating is going to be the end of the WWE crap. I'm about dadgum tired of it. Screw the bashing of everything on RAW, or ECW, they are both great shows. This is Milk's rant on how terrible everyones arguements have been as of late as to why the WWE sucks. Theres been at least 15 threads on all this hate for the WWE. The WWE deserves love. Milk, now shows WWE the love and respect they deserve by me.

Okay, it's hard to respect you're stance when you're stating you're opinions as facts. not everyone agrees that the product is geat, in fact most of us seem rather displeased with it, especially Raw. After one of the most illogically written shows I have ever seen, I dont see how anyone could put that episode anywhere but the trash compactor in they're memory bank.
I'm thrilled Batista will be out of my line of sight for the next few months, especially after how horribly he sold his arm, if this man didnt have muscles, I swear he'd be working at Denny's.
By the way, don't refer to yourself in the third person, we already think so little of you intellectually, you've got little ground to lose.

Raw just put on one of the best Raw's I've ever seen since McMahon peed his pants when Austin fired that "Bang" gun at him. Yet I STILL saw people say that it was a horrible RAW, that wasn't very entertaining. Yet, the best injury angle I have ever seen happened. HHH returned, which was sorda a shock.


Okay, thee is no way that absurd episode came aywhere near the level of entertainment of the Austin/mcmahon situation. It was poorly thought out and a complete waste of an oppurtunity to give us something good. i don't know what they look for in they're writing staff but I would think someonewho can derive a logical storyline, at the very least would be in they're requisites. Best injury angle you have ever seen? You dont watch much wrestling do you?

1. The Miz

The Miz got over even more than he normally did. This man is rising through the ranks faster than NASCAR drivers go 1/4 of a mile. His promos are simply amazing, and he was deffinetely one of the main vocal point of Raw for me this past Monday. Creative has done a wonderful job at booking him, and will continue to do so in my opinion. As long as they don't make Cena squash him when they actually wrestle. This could be Fued of the Year,no doupt


i like the Miz, but he is a nice mid card wrestler, but he will never be the FOCAL point of any WWE show, just a reliable heel presence for years to come IMO. He will eventually get squashed by Cena, thats how Vince does things. He may outsmart Cena but he will never really be portrayed to hold his own, thats only consistent with the character they have created.


[/QUOTE]2. Legacy


Legacy is a heel stable, with no compition right now. Yet everyone is continually complaining about how horrible they are. Even though they have one of the greatest superstars in all of the WWE at the moment, Randy Orton. And two men that are the future of the WWE. Furthermore, everything they have done, has been very heelish, and has been done in a very professional manner. Making me actually believe their constant beatdowns on everyone, is actually taking place. And at times making me actually hate my favorite wrestlers.[/QUOTE]


No competition right now? they're a bunch of wormy little heels who get beat up by any main eventer until they have a chance to swarm on them. orton has already lost to Batista, been beaten to a pulp by triple H several times, lost his title and been beaten down by a 60 year old man. ted and cody JUST got a signifigant match last week. How is this dominant?

3. The Future of the business

Honestly? The future of the business is looking amazing right now. With Randy Orton, John Cena, Ted Dibiase, Kofi Kingston, MVP, Chris Jericho, Evan Bourne, John Morrison, Matt Hardy, Jeff Hardy, Edge, Christian, etc leading the newer generation in, and letting the old generation out. The WWE is in great hands. These few men can tell stories like no other, put on matches, and most have fairly nice charisma. How in the hell is the future of the WWE jeopradized when beaten down Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, and Batista leave. If anything it will do better. The few suprise appearances here and there, will cause merchandise to spike, and make people want to atend more of those mens hometown shows in hopes to see a little suprise appearance. This also allows new faces to step into certain scenes on screen, and off stage.

First off, I dont know where you see amazing in anyone of these young guys you are speaking of. Because half of the guys you listed are already full on established and mostly set in there veteran places. Edge, Hardy, Christian, Jericho are all in they're mid to late 30's, they were leading the new generation ten years ago and while they are all great in they're own ways, are by no means a substance provider for your "new generation arguement".
As for the young guys you spoke of, Morrison is great, bourne has potential and Kofi does as well, other than that who stands out atm? Those three are great but just like th rest of this new generation, they have trouble telling a story in that ring. Cena , while i'm not a fan, does his job well in most aspects. he may be bland and unspectacular as a preformer, but he's solid not a shitstorm worker the likes of Bastista. Orton is a big cause for the ratings issus on Raw and Vince is starting to realize it, if you find him a compelling chracter , then you are easily captivated. Would you like a balloon animal?

4. The WWE

Is the best wrestling business in the world today. No one can match the income they are making, the shows they are putting out, and the talent they have. I'm willing to say WWE is winning by a HUGE margin when it comes to any sort of compitition. So Vince isn't as in touch with the croud as he used to be? It doesn't mean hes writing shows for only himself. Hes trying, and his creative is doing a fine job as well. All things in the wrestling world are hit and miss. Sometimes, they rely on what they know might work, and you complain. Other times they take risks, try new things, and when they do, you complain.

You're the reason Vince keeps rolling out this awful product. You think he's trying, you think they're demolishing competition that isn't even there anymore. I don't like TNA, but I really hope this company makes a dent and gives Vince a reason to try somewhere down the line.


5. PG rating

Is one of the best things, in my eyes, to ever happen to the WWE. The overall product hasn't changed much. But the fact is, blading is no longer a need due to no blood on pg rating television. Fuck, we've not really lost anything other than that. I've seen more innovative stuff in the WWE than I saw in the 5 years I watched ECW. Theres no need to complain about anything when it comes to the PG rating, because we've honestly lost nothing, other than blood. The loss of blood, is a gain in the wrestlers life. Actual blading can be dangerous, and severely cut a mans life if done wrong, or too much blood is lost during the course of the match. Its a dangerous process, and isn't needed by any means necassary.


Okay, i'm gonna try and pretend that you din't just say the WWE is more innovative than the ECW of old. Everything the WWE did creatively that flourished, somene did first, not only ECW. The WWe has the money to take an Idea and make it seem innovative even to people who have seen the same ideas at they're inception, but that hardly makes them innovative. The things they do try that are creative, are usually the bad side of that spectrum.
I mean if you like Festus, Hornswoggle, the hog pen match (now and from the 90's), Goldust, Santina, the gobledy gooker, and The Boogeyman then i would say you're the last one to enter a discussion on innovation.


So come the hell on what do you want? Are you going to constantly nag, and complain about horirble the wrestling world is? As you continually watch it, and continually post on wrestling forums about such manners? Its not like the WWE actually reads your posts anyways. You're only making the IWC look worse and worse at each passing day. Theres a reason "Exclude me from the IWC" threads exsist here on this forum. No one really wants to hear constant bitching, and complaining by any means neccassary. We're all here to debate one another, have some fun, and yeah point out our likes and dislikes of the wrestling business. But as of late, everyone has just gone to far. And I'd love to know why, or the reasoning behind such things.

If the product was good in a general opinion, I'm sure you would see a change in that trend. Opinions are opinions, and the fact that there is more bad then good these days should make that fairly clear to you about the overall appeal of the show.

[τδιγλε]

Thank goodness. Someone with something tangible, that might actually be able to be passed off for an actual reason. Thankyou TSnugs :worship:

While I can semi agree with you on a lack of major storylines, I have to dissent and say there ARE storylines, they just arent nearly as bombastic as the ones in the attitude era. We are now seeing things cenetering more just aorund the title, beating one another for it. Which were the storylines back in the day, The Hogan days I mean. I mean....why was Hulk Hogan constantly fighting for the title? Ultimate Warrior? Bret Hart? Undertaker? same shit.

Bastista and Cena are title contenders becuase they lost their titles in under dubious conditions, and they win matches against high profile competition. Thats why Cena has been feuding with Show. Batista was put in the spot he has been in the last couple months becuase of the fact it was Orton who put him out in the first place, y'know?

More subtle, yes. Lack thereof? hardly. IMO. Yes, I agree you need to have entertaining storylines, at the same time though, I guess I dont feel I need overly complex storylines for them to be entertaining. "hey i dont like you, and I want to win the belt, so im gonna kick your ass" is fine enough for me.

You miss the complex mutli layered storylines of The Attitude era then. Fair enough. I still maintain however that those things were pretty isolated to that certain era of time. I dont feel like the storylines were overly complex back in the Hogan Days or The New Generation.

The one bad thing that I can say about the Attitude Era was that there were far less gimmicks than there were during Hogan's Era and the New Generation. I mean, there were a few, but it was mainly people being themselves and having no interesting back story that could gradually be revealed. However, the bookers were able to make up for this with great story lines.

With today's product, you not only have a lack of gimmicks, but you also have no good story lines (I happen to think that complexity is key, as it keeps things fresh, keeps the viewer thinking, and allows for more than two wrestlers to be involved in an angle, so we'll have to agree to disagree on what a good storyline entails). Furthermore, there is pretty much no focus on the under card whatsoever.

Hogan may have been in the title scene for a long period of time, but: a) he didn't fight the same people over and over again; b) he was just the icing on a very appetizing cake.