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View Full Version : ECW Regular Wrestling Match: Brock Lesnar vs. Jushin Thunder Liger


Shocky
05-23-2009, 11:14 AM
The following match takes place in the ECW Region, from the ECW Arena in Philadelphia, PA.

Regular Wrestling Match: The following match will take place under regular wrestling rules. However, much has been made about this, and I have decided that the match that Regular for ECW is Extreme Rules. The House Rules apply in this match.

Brock Lesnar:
http://www.minnesotascore.com/articles/images/BrockLesnar.jpg

vs.

Jushin Thunder Liger
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2004/11/03/Justin_Thunder_Liger.jpg

jmt225
05-23-2009, 11:54 AM
Okay, I deeply respect and admire how far Tdigs and Ligerbomb have been able to carry Jushin Liger in this tournament..... but, it stops here.

I don't see how in any way, shape or form anyone could ever justifiably vote for Liger over Lesnar. Lesnar's the better, more versatile worker, and he would absolutely destroy Jushin Liger in a kayfabe, or shoot for that matter, match. And as far as kayfabe is being concerned, Liger DEFINITELY wouldn't stand a chance against Lesnar in ECW. For one, Lesnar can be as sadistic as anyone, but then you factor in the strength advantage, and the fact that Liger's speed won't help him considering how fast Lesnar is himself… no way Liger would be able to put this monster down. There's no high spot Liger could try that Lesnar wouldn't be able to counter with a power move. And then you add in to the fact that even though Lesnar was never in ECW, he's still one of Paul Heyman's own personal projects. No way ever would Liger defeat Lesnar in ECW, no fucking way..

And Liger is a great worker, no doubt, but I strongly feel Lesnar was a lot better. The shit that behemoth could do, it was unbelievable. Never has the business seen someone so powerful yet agile, so brutal yet so graceful.... Brock Lesnar is just not human.

Lesnar might not have been in pro wrestling long, but man did he leave his mark. It took Liger years and years of hard work and a lot of luck to get to where he got, and I really respect him for that, but he's no Brock Lesnar. Liger might have Lesnar beat in the department of passion for the business and also longevity, but there's nothing else. And to me, that says Lesnar should clearly advance here.

HBK-aholic
05-23-2009, 11:59 AM
Liger shouldn't even have gotten this far, and his road definately stops here. This should be the easiest match to vote on in this round. Brock Lesnar has everything. He's powerful, he's fast, and he's a damn good wrestler. In kayfabe, out of kayfabe, Lesnar has every advantage possible over Liger, and his F5 will put Liger out of this.

Blade
05-23-2009, 12:08 PM
Liger would go down to Lesnar after a good fight in most gimmick matches. But this is a regular wrestling match. Liger doesn't even stand a chance.

The only thing Liger has over Lesnar is the speed, and even the most hardcore Liger fans aren't gonna be able to argue with that.
Lesnar made his WWE career on destroying faster, smaller guys. Hardys, RVD, The Rock, Angle. All faster, all lost to Lesnar. The fact that he managed to beat The Rock and Angle is astonishing, since those two guys have the biggest reputations for kicking out of finishing moves. But they both stayed down to the F-5. In fact, I don't rememeber anyone apart from Goldberg kicking out of it. And Liger sure doesn't have the toughness or resilience (spelling?) of Goldberg.

Liger would be able to hit the odd move out of nowhere, stunning Lesnar momentarily and he'd be able to dodge Lesnar to a certain extent. But as soon as Lesnar catches him, and Lesnar would catch him, Liger would be screwed. A few high impact power moves, maybe a bone crunching submission and an F-5 ends it for Liger after 10 minutes.

klunderbunker
05-23-2009, 12:14 PM
On an N64 boxing game there's a line a character says when he wins a fight: Too Bad, Too Big, Too Mean. That summarizes Lesnar vs. Liger.

No way Liger wins here. He might be the best cruiserweight of all time, but that's not going to mean anything here. There's a reason why in spots like boxing that lighter fighters don't face heavyweights: one punch and the lightweights' head would be in the fourth row. Liger can hit all the offense he wants here and it means nothing. He can't Liger Bome him, the brainbuster won't work, and he'll never got the SSP in time. Liger is dead here as Lesnar rolls over him.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-23-2009, 01:10 PM
Has there ever been a man in this tournament more dangerous than Brock Lesnar? No one, not even the die-hard Jeff Hardy fans were able to put up a real argument against him. We Lesnar supporters have been able to half-ass it in these threads, because he's had no real competition.

This match is over before it starts. Liger was good, but he couldn't hang with Lesnar. Lesnar is too strong, too big, too fast, too mean, too everything for Liger to handle. I can't think of any reason not to vote Lesnar.

Cena's Little Helper
05-23-2009, 02:11 PM
Liger shouldn't even have gotten this far, and his road definately stops here. This should be the easiest match to vote on in this round. Brock Lesnar has everything. He's powerful, he's fast, and he's a damn good wrestler. In kayfabe, out of kayfabe, Lesnar has every advantage possible over Liger, and his F5 will put Liger out of this.

Actually, Liger should have gotten this far, as he was better than everyone he faced in the aspects that counted (with all due respect, your post in the Michaels vs. Liger thread did absolutely nothing to convince me why Michaels should have gone over Liger; I know you were in the hospital, and it is possible that you could have put forward better arguments had you been healthy, so, better luck next year).

But, even I have to admit that Liger faces an extremely daunting challenge here. Stay tuned for the arguments that I plan on putting forward, as I'm going to have to think long and hard about how Liger could match Brock Lesnar. There are two things that are possibly in Liger's favor, however:

1) Kayfabe, Lesnar lost to Eddie Guerrero at No Way Out 2004, a borderline cruiserweight who is nowhere near as good as Jushin Liger.

2) This is a pure wrestling match, and Liger is well versed in freestyle wrestling. I know that there is a difference between American collegiate wrestling and freestyle wrestling, so, I'll have to see if this will play to Liger's benefit or not.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-23-2009, 02:15 PM
1) Kayfabe, Lesnar lost to Eddie Guerrero at No Way Out 2004, a borderline cruiserweight who is nowhere near as good as Jushin Liger.

Due to interference from Goldberg. Lesnar was well on his way to a victory before that.

Tdigle said it. He's even having a hard time thinking of how Lesnar would lose. He's a huge Liger mark, yet he can't find a Liger victory anywhere. That should be enough to convince you all.

Father:_Polley
05-23-2009, 06:02 PM
Tdigs... I'm impressed that you managed to get Liger this far and to get him past HBK in a forum of fans. Impressive. However I wish to point out that Brock Lesnar is a beast of a man. A man who was hit with a Sweet Chin Music and simply rolled out of the ring and shook it off. The last round made it clear that if HBK had hit SCM, Liger was out.

Brock is the sorta guy who will happily take all the shots Liger can dish out, then punch a chair into Liger's face and proceed to dismantle him. Make no mistake... Brock couldn't actually give a rat's about Liger. He's the kind of man who happily F5-ed a one legged man into a ring post, knee first with his mother in the front row. That's how uncaring he is.

He tossed Big Show, Taker and Angle around the ring happily without the necessity of weapons to wear them out first.

will he tire? He's the man you saw running up hills carrying a tree, then squatting the tree. Athletic enough to hit the very move Jushin Liger prides himself on with ease. Not bad for a big dude.

Preempting the inevitable 'No, do you not remember Mania? He botched it'. Did he not manage to finish that match with a severe concussion and managed to avoid breaking his neck due to the degree of muscle he has.

I respect his activity... but Brock is big, strong and bad. He's probably one of, if not the favourite to win ECW, if not the whole thing

Uncle Sam
05-23-2009, 06:12 PM
1) Kayfabe, Lesnar lost to Eddie Guerrero at No Way Out 2004, a borderline cruiserweight who is nowhere near as good as Jushin Liger.

Well, as long as something didn't occur beforehand... like, weird example, Lesnar being speared by Goldberg.

2) This is a pure wrestling match, and Liger is well versed in freestyle wrestling. I know that there is a difference between American collegiate wrestling and freestyle wrestling, so, I'll have to see if this will play to Liger's benefit or not.

I think by "regular" they mean your regular, run of the mill wrestling match. If they meant shoot style, I'm sure Lesnar fans would be having a field day.

IrishCanadian25
05-23-2009, 06:55 PM
What is with all of the Lesnar love in this tournament? I mean, really?

In Brock Lesnar, you have a guy who was pushed to the moon and at a VERY young age was set up to be one of the 5 greatest pro wrestlers of all time. His mic skills were coming around, and his physical stature and skill were very plauisble and realistic. And still, he slapped you all in the face by insulting the wrestling business to try to walk on with the Minnesota Vikings.

Lesnar was handed the world, and like Shane Douglas to the NWA Title, Brock threw it down and spit on it. And what are you all doing? You're fawning over him like 12 year olds at a Jonas Brothers concert.

Makes me sick.

Vote for Liger. Respect the business.

ZEUS
05-23-2009, 06:55 PM
I love Jushin Liger. I was also a fan of Brock's in ring work. I think this would be a very entertaining match, but I cannot fathom how Liger could beat Brock. Lesnar is just too powerful, too skilled, and too intense. I'm sure Liger would do better than a lot of people will give him credit for, but this should be another win for Lesnar.

ZEUS
05-23-2009, 06:59 PM
What is with all of the Lesnar love in this tournament? I mean, really?

In Brock Lesnar, you have a guy who was pushed to the moon and at a VERY young age was set up to be one of the 5 greatest pro wrestlers of all time. His mic skills were coming around, and his physical stature and skill were very plauisble and realistic. And still, he slapped you all in the face by insulting the wrestling business to try to walk on with the Minnesota Vikings.

Lesnar was handed the world, and like Shane Douglas to the NWA Title, Brock threw it down and spit on it. And what are you all doing? You're fawning over him like 12 year olds at a Jonas Brothers concert.

Makes me sick.

Vote for Liger. Respect the business.

Yeah, Lesnar was a dick for walking away the way he did, but that doesn't change who would win in a match. Lesnar has the tools to win, Liger really doesn't.

justinsayne
05-23-2009, 07:31 PM
What is with all of the Lesnar love in this tournament? I mean, really?

In Brock Lesnar, you have a guy who was pushed to the moon and at a VERY young age was set up to be one of the 5 greatest pro wrestlers of all time. His mic skills were coming around, and his physical stature and skill were very plauisble and realistic. And still, he slapped you all in the face by insulting the wrestling business to try to walk on with the Minnesota Vikings.

Lesnar was handed the world, and like Shane Douglas to the NWA Title, Brock threw it down and spit on it. And what are you all doing? You're fawning over him like 12 year olds at a Jonas Brothers concert.

Makes me sick.

Vote for Liger. Respect the business.

Brock Lesner wrestled till his contract was up, he took care of his business then decided he had other goals he would also like to achieve in his life, and when his contract with WWE was up, he moved on and at least tried to fulfill those goals, that's alot more than I can say for most people, just because he didn't make wrestling his life long career doesn't take away from what he accomplished in the short time he was there, IMO he didn't spit and throw down any oppertunity he was handed, he knew full well, that had he stayed with WWE he would have been hugely successful, he aslo knew full well that at his age if he ever wanted to become a professional athlete in the NFL he had to do it while he was young, and so he did, granted things didn't pan oout for like he prolly hoped but at least he made the effort to try, he then decided to give MMA an shot and I don't think even you can fault him for going their where, much like with his wrestling career he is a huge success, and makes prolly loads more money than he would if he were still working for WWE, wrestling fans are just a little ridiculous in the way they view what a wrestler owes them, or what they think the wrestler owes them, the fact of the matter is a wrestle doesn't owe anything more than a good show while he's under contract, once his contract expires that wrestler can go off and do any danm thing he wishes

Shocky
05-23-2009, 07:36 PM
I think this is a preemptive strike by the boss man because he fears the Brock Train picking up momentum, and the Man they Call Vader is slowly coming along on the tracks...

The man threw nothing away, he wanted more out of himself. Nothing wrong with that, at all. In fact, self motivated men that dominate something, and then move on to the next challenge should be comended instead of condemed. Brock Lesnar could have been the biggest name in the WWE for this entire decade, but unlike others' liek Triple H that decide to rest on the name they made for themselves ten years ago, and ride it for all it's worth, Brock did what he wanted to do, and moved on.

This is a highly competive man, who has become a champion at nearly everything he has done. To piss on him because he "spit on the business" which is a load of crap if you ask me, considering he was granted an early release from the company when they could have said no. Yes, so lets condemn the man that instead of sitting on all of his successes, decided to risk it, and then become an even bigger name in an even bigger sport.

Brock Lesnar is a genetic freak, that in just two years forever changed the standard of what a prototypical wrestler should be. That is an impact, and it will be felt for a long time. Brock Lesnar, FTW.

Justin beat me to it as well, this sense of entitlement that wrestling fans feel they deserve is beyond ridiculous. You hear it all the time about guys like Rock, and Brock, and it's completely unjustified.

Bad News Lariat
05-23-2009, 07:41 PM
What is with all of the Lesnar love in this tournament? I mean, really?

In Brock Lesnar, you have a guy who was pushed to the moon and at a VERY young age was set up to be one of the 5 greatest pro wrestlers of all time. His mic skills were coming around, and his physical stature and skill were very plauisble and realistic. And still, he slapped you all in the face by insulting the wrestling business to try to walk on with the Minnesota Vikings.

Lesnar was handed the world, and like Shane Douglas to the NWA Title, Brock threw it down and spit on it. And what are you all doing? You're fawning over him like 12 year olds at a Jonas Brothers concert.

Makes me sick.

Vote for Liger. Respect the business.

Well, all the stuff you said was true, IC. But it doesn't change the fact that when Brock brings it, he's better than them all. He's too big, too quick, too mean, too everything. Liger will give him some trouble at first, but it all ends when Lesnar takes his head off with a clothesline no less. Then it's destruction. Lesnar's a bitch in the business. He got his piece of the pie, ate it, and left...but one things for sure. He's a freak of nature. I called him, 'The Freak'. Because he just looked like he'd tear a NYC phone book in half, eat it, shit it out...all for irony.

Lesnar cruises in this match. The size and speed difference is too much for Liger.

Vote Lesnar. Even if he was a douche.

IrishCanadian25
05-23-2009, 07:43 PM
Now take Justin for example. He's just completed the world's longest and hardest to read run-on sentence - if he decided that he wanted to take this accomplishment to a different forum, I'd lose a measure of respect for him.

:)

Anyway, I don't compare Lesnar to The Rock. Rock wrestled for several years, Brock for 2. TWO YEARS. Liger dominated his peers for over a decade on several continents. When Rock walked away, he did so pretty quietly until people started asking him questions. Brock flipped the fans in MSG off.

Think about that. In his last match, because the fans knew about it, he thanked them with a hearty middle finger. "You all spent money to see me for the last two years? Well guess what, I'm leaving, and while I'm at it, fuck you all." Ridiculous.

Shocky
05-23-2009, 07:47 PM
And if the Garden crowd didn't act like jackasses the entire match about Brock leaving, then it wouldn't have been a problem. What exactly did you want out of the man. After all, he was the heel in the match. Brock Lesnar played that crowd to a T. The fingers were a nice touch, because guess who else was in the ring, Steve Austin. As soon as he was done flipping the crowd off, he gave the old double bird to Austin and got stunned for his trouble. The Garden crowd did what the garden crowd does, and that's act like a bunch of smarky bastards, and Brock worked the hell out of them.

Again, I still don't see how that has anything to do with Jushin Liger and his ability to beat Brock lesnar in a wrestling match. I'm not going to bury Liger in here, because I love Liger, but I can't see how the man matches up. Jim Duggan did his job for how many years, would you vote him over say Goldberg, who did most of his work from 98-00?

checkmate916
05-24-2009, 03:24 AM
I just don't see any valid reason to vote against Lesnar here. He is what everyone says he is: Bigger and Stronger. He could likely eat anything Liger has to offer, shrug it off, and beat him to a pulp. I'm not saying Liger won't get some shots in, but this is a one sided matchup.

It makes me wish HBK had won last round. I think Shawn might have given Brock a little more of a run than Liger will. Not that I think Shawn would win, or that he should have beaten Liger, but just a thought. That has come and gone though, so I'll move back to the Brock/Liger match.

Someone mentioned the Guerrero situation, and while I agree, I also strongly disagree with that assesment. Guerrero beat Brock because of a few reasons:

1. Kayfabe: Goldberg.
2. Kayfabe: Guerrero cheats.
3. Non-Kayfabe: His contract situation.

I'm not saying that Brock CANNOT lose, as he will and should when the right circumstances occur. However, this is the Brock Lesnar that beat up both Hardy Boyz at the same time. This is the guy that beat the Rock for the title at Summerslam. The guy that threw the Undertaker around in Hell in a Cell. He F5'd the Big Show, and superplex'd him through the ring. I could keep going here, but won't for waste of text. All I see is Liger not standing up to Lesnar's offense.

Brock flipped the fans in MSG off.

Think about that. In his last match, because the fans knew about it, he thanked them with a hearty middle finger. "You all spent money to see me for the last two years? Well guess what, I'm leaving, and while I'm at it, fuck you all." Ridiculous.

All this proves to me is that Lesnar would beat Liger, then flip him off too. Why? Because he is Brock Lesnar, and he can.

Y 2 Jake
05-24-2009, 09:31 AM
Brock Lesner wrestled till his contract was up, he took care of his business

No he didn't. If he wrestled till his contract was up then why did he sign another contract upon leaving stating that he wouldn't wrestle for another American based promotion? It's why there was a lawsuit between Lesnar & WWE. The lawsuit is also a partial reason why Lesnar didn't return to WWE after he didn't make it as an American Footballer.

Even so, he still wins the match.

Slyfox696
05-24-2009, 11:07 AM
It's amazing how many people have been completely worked by the WWE. You want to know what the difference between Umaga and Brock Lesnar is? Brock Lesnar left before the WWE made him lose. Everyone is saying Lesnar because he was BOOKED to win. If he had stayed for another 5 years, he would not have won as often, and he would have looked more human, and people would quit voting for him. You people have been completely worked by the WWE.

So, I just skimmed a few of the posts in this thread, and I couldn't believe some of the garbage I was seeing. Allow me to quote some...

I don't see how in any way, shape or form anyone could ever justifiably vote for Liger over Lesnar. Lesnar's the better, more versatile workerOn what planet is Lesnar better or more versatile? Liger has worked with cruiserweights, heavyweights and super heavyweights. He's put on great matches with many many wrestlers. He's won more titles than Lesnar has matches. He's won Match of the Year honors, best gimmick honors, best TECHNICAL WRESTLER honors, as well as being a Hall of Famer. Jushin Liger, along with Pillman, helped to popularize Cruiserweight wrestling in America, before there was even a Cruiserweight division.

On what planet is Lesnar a better or more versatile wrestler than Jushin Liger?
Liger shouldn't even have gotten this farSure he should have. Just because he's from Japan, doesn't mean he isn't great.

Quit being racist.

This should be the easiest match to vote on in this round. This I will agree with. Lesnar is an overrated bore, that was nothing more than a flash in the pan.

Liger is a Hall of Famer, and is one of the greatest wrestlers of all time.

The only thing Liger has over Lesnar is the speed, and even the most hardcore Liger fans aren't gonna be able to argue with that. I'm not a hardcore Liger fan, but I'll argue it.

Liger is quicker, faster, more experienced, more successful, better in-ring work, more exciting, more innovative, and a better storyteller.

Lesnar made his WWE career on destroying faster, smaller guys. Like this guy? gP2UXDq028s

It amazes me how people are voting this tournament completely on kayfabe, and not on quality.

Well, as long as something didn't occur beforehand... like, weird example, Lesnar being speared by Goldberg.Yeah, and outside interference would never happen in ECW...

Lesnar is too strong, too big, too fast, too mean, too everything for Liger to handle. I can't think of any reason not to vote Lesnar.How about the fact that Liger was a better wrestler, not to mention more successful?

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-24-2009, 11:21 AM
It's amazing how many people have been completely worked by the WWE. You want to know what the difference between Umaga and Brock Lesnar is? Brock Lesnar left before the WWE made him lose. Everyone is saying Lesnar because he was BOOKED to win. If he had stayed for another 5 years, he would not have won as often, and he would have looked more human, and people would quit voting for him. You people have been completely worked by the WWE.

I vote for Brock Lesnar because he is my favorite wrestler, actually. :p

I haven't been worked by anyone. When I see Lesnar, I see a man stronger than a bull, fast as men half his size, and with the technical ability of a collegiate wrestling champion. He has the look and he had the skill. Brock Lesnar was better than John Cena, he just didn't have the desire.

Umaga didn't receive half the push as Lesnar. He didn't deserve it. He was never as believable or as over as Lesnar. And how do you know that Lesnar wouldn't have won as often? Did you speak with the person that books his matches? No, you didn't. You know who wouldn't have won as often? John Cena wouldn't have won as often. He was their quick fix for Lesnar's departure.

I will vote for Lesnar regardless if he left the business; I'll vote for him regardless if he was only around for two years. You'll be hard pressed to find more dominant years.

Slyfox696
05-24-2009, 12:06 PM
I vote for Brock Lesnar because he is my favorite wrestler, actually. :pWay to be objective. :rolleyes:

I haven't been worked by anyone. If Lesnar is your favorite, then yes you have.

When I see Lesnar, I see a man stronger than a bull, fast as men half his size, and with the technical ability of a collegiate wrestling champion.And yet, was still a mediocre PROFESSIONAL wrestler.

He has the look and he had the skill. Brock Lesnar was better than John Cena, he just didn't have the desire. Lesnar may have had more raw ability, but he was NEVER as good as Cena is now.

He didn't deserve it.And Brock did? Tell me, what did Brock do to "deserve it"?

And how do you know that Lesnar wouldn't have won as often?Because, it's how wrestling works these days. In the end, most wrestlers will generally end up around .500 winning percentage for their matches. A guy gets a push, so he'll win a bunch of matches, but then once he gets to the main-event, he levels off, so as to make everyone seem like a legitimate threat to each other.

It's the nature of professional wrestling.

I will vote for Lesnar regardless if he left the business; I'll vote for him regardless if he was only around for two years. You'll be hard pressed to find more dominant years.How about a more dominant career? You know, like Liger has had?

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-24-2009, 12:16 PM
If Lesnar is your favorite, then yes you have.

Why? I like Brock Lesnar. He entertained me. It's no different than if John Cena was my favorite.

And yet, was still a mediocre PROFESSIONAL wrestler.

Please explain why.

Lesnar may have had more raw ability, but he was NEVER as good as Cena is now.

Brock also hasn't had seven years to hone his skills. Give Brock five more years and he's better than Cena is. In fact, Cena wouldn't be where he is right now if Lesnar were around.

And Brock did? Tell me, what did Brock do to "deserve it"?

http://www.minnesotascore.com/articles/images/BrockLesnar.jpg

Because, it's how wrestling works these days. In the end, most wrestlers will generally end up around .500 winning percentage for their matches. A guy gets a push, so he'll win a bunch of matches, but then once he gets to the main-event, he levels off, so as to make everyone seem like a legitimate threat to each other.

Oh, I see. Triple H only wins about half of his matches? Please.

How about a more dominant career? You know, like Liger has had?

He lost to the likes of Brian Pillman. That's dominance, right there.

Uncle Sam
05-24-2009, 12:21 PM
Yeah, and outside interference would never happen in ECW...

OK, I appreciate you have other points. However, that's a terrible counterpoint. So... what; people are meant to vote for Liger on the off chance that... well, I don't know, Goldberg decides to come out and spear him again? Or are you implying that interference is an automatic occurrence in ECW and they keep the bWo on standby just in case someone looks a little too dominant?

Personally, I like how people are basing their votes from kayfabe. That's how I liked it last tournament, and that's how I like it this one. In kayfabe, Lesnar tears Liger a new one. And then another new one. And another. And another. And another. And another...

By the end, he looks like swiss cheese.

Slyfox696
05-24-2009, 12:28 PM
Why? I like Brock Lesnar. He entertained me. It's no different than if John Cena was my favorite.Who said otherwise?

Of course, at least John Cena is a good worker...

Please explain why.Poor acting, poor on the stick, average in the ring=mediocre.

Lesnar was Samoa Joe with a better body.

Brock also hasn't had seven years to hone his skills. Give Brock five more years and he's better than Cena is. Yes, but you CAN'T give him those 5 years, because he wasn't there for five years. Thus, you can only vote on the quality that he was when he left.

http://www.minnesotascore.com/articles/images/BrockLesnar.jpg
http://www.accelerator3359.com/Wrestling/pictures/stasiak3.jpg

Good point. :rolleyes:

Oh, I see. Triple H only wins about half of his matches? Please. Not as champion you don't, but otherwise, yes. How many Wrestlemanias in a row did HHH lose?

He lost to the likes of Brian Pillman. That's dominance, right there.Perhaps you misunderstood me...allow me to clarify:

* Dragon Gate

* Open the Dream Gate Championship (1 time)

* Michinoku Pro Wrestling / North Eastern Wrestling

* British Commonwealth Junior Heavyweight Championship (2 times)
* Super J Cup (2000)

* New Japan Pro Wrestling

* IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship (11 times)
* IWGP Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Championship (5 times) – with The Great Sasuke (1), El Samurai (1), Minoru Tanaka, (1), Koji Kanemoto (1) and AKIRA (1)
* NWA World Junior Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
* NWA World Welterweight Championship (1 time)
* UWA World Junior Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
* WWA World Junior Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
* WWF Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)1
* Best of the Super Juniors (1994, 2001)
* G1 Junior Tag League (2001) – with El Samurai
* J-Crown (1 time)
* Naeba Cup Tag Tournament (2001) – with Yuji Nagata
* Top of the Super Juniors (1992)
* Young Lion Cup (1986)

* Osaka Pro

* Osaka Pro Wrestling Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Takehiro Murahama

* Pro Wrestling Illustrated

* PWI ranked him #12 of the 500 best singles wrestlers during the "PWI Years" in 2003

* Pro Wrestling Noah

* GHC Junior Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

* World Championship Wrestling

* WCW Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

* Wrestle Association R

* Super J Cup (1995)
* WAR International Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with El Samurai

* Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards

* 5 Star Match (1994) vs. The Great Sasuke on July 8
* Best Gimmick (1989)
* Best Flying Wrestler (1989–1993)
* Best Technical Wrestler (1989–1992)
* Best Wrestling Maneuver (1987, 1988) Shooting star press
* Match of the Year (1990) vs. Naoki Sano on January 31 in Osaka, Japan
* Most Outstanding Wrestler (1990–1992)
* Rookie of the Year (1984) tied with Tom Zenk
* Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame (Class of 1999)

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-24-2009, 12:32 PM
Poor acting, poor on the stick, average in the ring=mediocre.

His mic skills were improving when he left. His acting was fine. Brock was good in the ring.

Lesnar was Samoa Joe with a better body.

And skill.

Yes, but you CAN'T give him those 5 years, because he wasn't there for five years. Thus, you can only vote on the quality that he was when he left.

You said he isn't as good as John Cena is now. He was better than Cena after two years and he'd be better than Cena after seven, if this had been his desired profession.

Not as champion you don't, but otherwise, yes. How many Wrestlemanias in a row did HHH lose?

He lost four WrestleMania matches in a row. Other than those, how many matches was he pinned in those four years? You don't lose half of your matches.

Perhaps you misunderstood me...allow me to clarify:

Too bad he cut never cut it in America where it matters. ;)

Uncle Sam
05-24-2009, 12:36 PM
A diagram:

Over

* Dragon Gate

* Open the Dream Gate Championship (1 time)

* Michinoku Pro Wrestling / North Eastern Wrestling

* British Commonwealth Junior Heavyweight Championship (2 times)
* Super J Cup (2000)

* New Japan Pro Wrestling

* IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship (11 times)
* IWGP Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Championship (5 times) – with The Great Sasuke (1), El Samurai (1), Minoru Tanaka, (1), Koji Kanemoto (1) and AKIRA (1)
* NWA World Junior Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
* NWA World Welterweight Championship (1 time)
* UWA World Junior Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
* WWA World Junior Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
* WWF Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)1
* Best of the Super Juniors (1994, 2001)
* G1 Junior Tag League (2001) – with El Samurai
* J-Crown (1 time)
* Naeba Cup Tag Tournament (2001) – with Yuji Nagata
* Top of the Super Juniors (1992)
* Young Lion Cup (1986)

* Osaka Pro

* Osaka Pro Wrestling Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Takehiro Murahama

* Pro Wrestling Illustrated

* PWI ranked him #12 of the 500 best singles wrestlers during the "PWI Years" in 2003

* Pro Wrestling Noah

* GHC Junior Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

* World Championship Wrestling

* WCW Light Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

* Wrestle Association R

* Super J Cup (1995)
* WAR International Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with El Samurai

* Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards

* 5 Star Match (1994) vs. The Great Sasuke on July 8
* Best Gimmick (1989)
* Best Flying Wrestler (1989–1993)
* Best Technical Wrestler (1989–1992)
* Best Wrestling Maneuver (1987, 1988) Shooting star press
* Match of the Year (1990) vs. Naoki Sano on January 31 in Osaka, Japan
* Most Outstanding Wrestler (1990–1992)
* Rookie of the Year (1984) tied with Tom Zenk
* Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame (Class of 1999)

People's heads.

It's nice to see you included the Wrestling Observer awards though, you having so heavily argued their validity over the years.

And if Brock is Samoa Joe with a better body, well, Joe beat Liger pretty neatly.

Slyfox696
05-24-2009, 12:43 PM
His mic skills were improving when he left. They still sucked.

His acting was fine.It was wretched.

Brock was good in the ring.Yes, when he was booked to dominate his opponent. Otherwise? Nope.


You said he isn't as good as John Cena is now. Exactly. You can make up assumed quality.

Too bad he cut never cut it in America where it matters. ;)It wasn't that he couldn't cut it, it's he didn't wrestle here. Of course, when he did wrestle here, he won the WCW Light Heavyweight title.
It's nice to see you included the Wrestling Observer awards though, you having so heavily argued their validity over the years.I just used his entire list of accomplishments, and I know that those awards are thought highly of by some people.

And if Brock is Samoa Joe with a better body, well, Joe beat Liger pretty neatly.That's a kayfabe argument, and was done out of Liger's prime (over the age of 40).

I'm talking about actual quality of worker, and in Liger's prime, Lesnar couldn't touch him.

jmt225
05-24-2009, 12:43 PM
It's amazing how many people have been completely worked by the WWE. You want to know what the difference between Umaga and Brock Lesnar is? Brock Lesnar left before the WWE made him lose. Everyone is saying Lesnar because he was BOOKED to win. If he had stayed for another 5 years, he would not have won as often, and he would have looked more human, and people would quit voting for him. You people have been completely worked by the WWE.

Lol... this is fucking HILARIOUS coming from someone who claims that Batista is one of the best wrestlers on the planet and that anyone who thinks different either doesn't understand what good wrestling is or was touched by their father as a kid.

Yet, fans of Brock Lesnar were the one's worked by WWE, eh? :icon_rolleyes:

And the reason why we were "worked" was because Brock Lesnar was BELIEVABLE like a good wrestler is supposed to be. That's what makes him one of the absolute best wrestlers WWE has had this decade. The guy was believable and everyone bought it. It wasn't because WWE booked him that way; it was because Brock knew how to play his fucking character. Plus, with his look and amateur background and the fact that he was so athletic and agile... you just knew this guy could kick some ass legitimately. And you know what? He's showing us to be right with his stint the UFC.

On what planet is Lesnar better or more versatile?

Planet Earth.

Liger has worked with cruiserweights, heavyweights and super heavyweights.

And? So has Brock Lesnar.

He's put on great matches with many many wrestlers. He's won more titles than Lesnar has matches.

And within shorter than two years of working on the big stage, so did Brock Lesnar.

He's won Match of the Year honors, best gimmick honors, best TECHNICAL WRESTLER honors

Well look at Sly; using fucking Meltzers awards to win an argument. Hypocritical much? I'm pretty sure I've seen you bash Meltzer an uncountable amount of times.

And by the way, Lesnar won his fair share of awards from Meltzer as well. And I have to say it again... he did so with only being in the big stage for a year and a half.

as well as being a Hall of Famer.

If Brock Lesnar would've stayed in WWE he undoubtedly would've been a future of Hall of Famer. Hell, knowing WWE he'll probably make it there anyway.

And Lesnar also would've made Meltzer's HOF as well. And if Meltzer ever makes a MMA HOF and Lesnar continues down the path he's currently taking, then he will make that one.

Jushin Liger, along with Pillman, helped to popularize Cruiserweight wrestling in America, before there was even a Cruiserweight division.

Umm... what? Just because they had good matches doesn't mean that they "popularized Cruiserweight wrestling in America", because once those matches were done, you didn't see hardly any more Cruiserweight wrestlers in any company, unless you want to count the 123 Kid. It wasn't really until Heyman booked the Cruisers in ECW where it started to become popular in the states once Bischoff got his hands on those guys.

On what planet is Lesnar a better or more versatile wrestler than Jushin Liger?

Once again... on planet Earth.

Brock Lesnar was one of the most believable wrestlers the sport has ever seen, accomplished more than anyone ever has within a year span, and in the ring... he's ten times stronger, and on the same par athletically, which is unbelievable considering his size.

Uncle Sam
05-24-2009, 12:48 PM
Shocky might say "vote how you want" and hell, so might I. However, this tournament is clearly meant to be judged in kayfabe. If not, there'd be no need to state what wrestler's primes were. There'd be no need to specify regions or the particular rules within regions. The gimmick rounds, such as this one, would be totally pointless. The posts Shocky put together specifying the changes in location and the people in charge of each region wouldn't fit in at all.

So, basically, voting kayfabe is the smart thing to do, and the smart thing to do is to vote Brock Lesnar.

Slyfox696
05-24-2009, 12:51 PM
Lol... this is fucking HILARIOUS coming from someone who claims that Batista is one of the best wrestlers on the planet and that anyone who thinks different either doesn't understand what good wrestling is or was touched by their father as a kid.

Yet, fans of Brock Lesnar were the one's worked by WWE, eh? :icon_rolleyes:Please show me a match that of Lesnar's that was as good as Batista vs. Undertaker from Wrestlemania or Batista vs. Cena from Summerslam.

And the reason why we were "worked" was because Brock Lesnar was BELIEVABLE like a good wrestler is supposed to be. He was a one dimensional wrestler.

Plus, with his look and amateur background and the fact that he was so athletic and agile... you just knew this guy could kick some ass legitimately. And you know what? He's showing us to be right with his stint the UFC.I've said it numerous times...

amateur wrestling and professional wrestling have NOTHING to do with each other.

Planet Earth.You need to come back to it if you think Lesnar can touch Liger in terms of wrestling ability.

And? So has Brock Lesnar. Liger has worked WELL with cruiserweights, heavyweights and super heavyweights.

There's your difference.

And within shorter than two years of working on the big stage, so did Brock Lesnar.Like what? His match vs. Angle? It was the poorest drawing Wrestlemania since Wrestlemania 13. It was a piss bucket match, complete with a nice Lesnar botch at the end.

Well look at Sly; using fucking Meltzers awards to win an argument. Hypocritical much? I'm pretty sure I've seen you bash Meltzer an uncountable amount of times.Fine then, fuck Meltzer.

Liger still has put on Match of the Year bouts, and was still the best aerial wrestler and technical wrestler. Forget what Meltzer says, just watch wrestling and you can tell that.

If Brock Lesnar would've stayed in WWE he undoubtedly would've been a future of Hall of Famer. And in 1990, most people probably would have thought Ultimate Warrior would have been too.

People throw the term "flash in the pan" around all the time for Warrior, but at least Warrior put on some of the greatest matches in the history of wrestling. Lesnar didn't even do that.


Umm... what? Just because they had good matches doesn't mean that they "popularized Cruiserweight wrestling in America", because once those matches were done, you didn't see hardly any more Cruiserweight wrestlers in any companySure they did. They were the ones that got that style of wrestling popular in America, which WCW continued to use with guys like Benoit, 2 Cold, Pillman, etc.

On no level can ANYONE say that Lesnar was even close in ability to Jushin Liger.

Changed Name
05-24-2009, 12:54 PM
Unsure of who to vote for in this one.

Never cared much about Brock Lesnar, actually it wasnt long after he debuted that me (and many others I believe) switched off and stopped watching for a couple of years. In fact, I've always thought of him as Warrior-lite. Making Batista Warrior-lite-lite. I am sure people will talk about Lesnars moveset and agility but I didnt care, it didnt entertain me.

Anyway, it would appear that kayfabe dominance got thrown out of the window when Ultimate Warrior lost to Mick Foley, you've all convinced me that even the Ultimate one could be put down for 2 falls in one match, as a result, who's to say that Liger, who is better than Foley couldnt beat Lesnar, who is worse than Warrior. Liger after all, has beaten some of the best.

Although, I wouldnt mind Lesnar going through so we have somebody with enough support to remove Vader later on.

I'll have to ponder on this one.

Slyfox696
05-24-2009, 12:58 PM
Anyway, it would appear that kayfabe dominance got thrown out of the window when Ultimate Warrior lost to Mick Foley, you've all convinced me that even the Ultimate one could be put down for 2 falls in one match, as a result, who's to say that Liger, who is better than Foley couldnt beat Lesnar, who is worse than Warrior. Liger after all, has beaten some of the best.Kayfabe only matters to these people when they can't justify quality of their favorite wrestler to advance. Like, in this case, since everyone knows Liger is the superior worker, they use the "kayfabe" argument.

And they want to call me hypocritical.

Uncle Sam
05-24-2009, 01:01 PM
Shocky might say "vote how you want" and hell, so might I. However, this tournament is clearly meant to be judged in kayfabe. If not, there'd be no need to state what wrestler's primes were. There'd be no need to specify regions or the particular rules within regions. The gimmick rounds, such as this one, would be totally pointless. The posts Shocky put together specifying the changes in location and the people in charge of each region wouldn't fit in at all.

So, basically, voting kayfabe is the smart thing to do, and the smart thing to do is to vote Brock Lesnar.

I'm just going to go ahead and quote this for emphasis. Of course, I'll have to rabbit on so this isn't considered spam. What will I talk about? No idea. Did anyone see UFC 98 last night? I watched the start of it and got bored. Roll on UFC 100, I say. You know who's fighting then? Brock Lesnar. Coincidentally, I think you should vote Brock Lesnar. Fo' sho'.

Mr. TM
05-24-2009, 01:06 PM
Well I have been swayed so far. Lot more Lesnar love in here, but I have always felt uneasy for voting for him. Lesnar may have been dominant, but he was dominant in a time when WWE was dying down. Santina Marella is 6-1 in her career, proving that records mean little (Oh no, I just took Santina down a notch:() But the way Sly put it, comparing Brock Lesnar to Umaga should really put it home. Umaga was unstoppable, Brock was unstoppable, until of course, their momentum was used to push someone else. That is a common occurrence in the WWE. Who is to say that right now, if Brock had stayed in the WWE, that he would not become John Cena's whooping boy, just like he would have been to Stone Cold if Austin could wrestle.

Mr. TM
05-24-2009, 01:08 PM
I'm just going to go ahead and quote this for emphasis. Of course, I'll have to rabbit on so this isn't considered spam. What will I talk about? No idea. Did anyone see UFC 98 last night? I watched the start of it and got bored. Roll on UFC 100, I say. You know who's fighting then? Brock Lesnar. Coincidentally, I think you should vote Brock Lesnar. Fo' sho'.

One thought that I have had during all of this is Brock Lesnar's massive support seems to tie in with his recent success in MMA. I don't like to use MMA or any non professional wrestling base as support for any talent. I do think that Brock is getting crutched by his MMA dominance, just like Angle could have used his Olympic success.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-24-2009, 01:08 PM
Please show me a match that of Lesnar's that was as good as Batista vs. Undertaker from Wrestlemania or Batista vs. Cena from Summerslam.

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I've said it numerous times...

amateur wrestling and professional wrestling have NOTHING to do with each other.

Kurt Angle's entire career has been centered around the fact that he is an Olympic gold medalist.

Liger has worked WELL with cruiserweights, heavyweights and super heavyweights.

There's your difference.

No. The difference is that Brock Lesnar beat them.

Like what? His match vs. Angle? It was the poorest drawing Wrestlemania since Wrestlemania 13. It was a piss bucket match, complete with a nice Lesnar botch at the end.

I'd like to see John Cena do a shooting star press. Brock Lesnar just underestimated the distance.

Fine then, fuck Meltzer.

Liger still has put on Match of the Year bouts, and was still the best aerial wrestler and technical wrestler. Forget what Meltzer says, just watch wrestling and you can tell that.

I thought wrestling was about telling a story in the ring, not fancy flips, Sly. :rolleyes:

Oh, and..

Amateur wrestling:
Big Ten Conference:
Big Ten Conference Championship (1999, 2000)
Ranked the #1 Heavyweight in the Big Ten Conference (2000)

National Collegiate Athletic Association:
NCAA Division I runner–up (1999)
NCAA Division I Championship (2000)
North Dakota State University's annual Bison tournament
Heavyweight Championship (1997–1999)
National Junior College Athletic Association
NJCAA All–American (1997, 1998)
Junior College National Championship (1998)

Professional wrestling:

New Japan Pro Wrestling:
IWGP Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
Inoki Genome Federation
IWGP Third Belt Championship (1 time)

Ohio Valley Wrestling:
OVW Southern Tag Team Championship (3 times) – with Shelton Benjamin

Pro Wrestling Illustrated:
PWI Feud of the Year award in 2003 vs. Kurt Angle
PWI Match of the Year award in 2003 vs. Kurt Angle – a 60 minute Iron Man match on SmackDown!, September 16
PWI Most Improved Wrestler of the Year award in 2002
PWI Wrestler of the Year award in 2002
PWI ranked him # 1 of the 500 best singles wrestlers in the PWI 500 in 2003

World Wrestling Entertainment:
WWE Championship (3 times)
King of the Ring (2002)
Royal Rumble (2003)

Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards:
Best Brawler (2003)[104]
Best Wrestling Maneuver (2002) F–5
Feud of the Year (2003) vs. Kurt Angle
Most Improved Wrestler (2002, 2003)

Mixed Martial Arts:

Ultimate Fighting Championship
UFC Heavyweight Championship (1 time, current)
Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards
Best Box Office Draw (2008)
MMA Most Valuable Fighter (2008)

And in 1990, most people probably would have thought Ultimate Warrior would have been too.

He would have been if he wasn't crazy in the head.

People throw the term "flash in the pan" around all the time for Warrior, but at least Warrior put on some of the greatest matches in the history of wrestling. Lesnar didn't even do that.

I've never called Warrior that.

Sure they did. They were the ones that got that style of wrestling popular in America, which WCW continued to use with guys like Benoit, 2 Cold, Pillman, etc.

Because people like Pillman and 2 Cold Scorpio are so important to wrestling.

On no level can ANYONE say that Lesnar was even close in ability to Jushin Liger.

They'd be stupid if they did. He was far above Liger.

Uncle Sam
05-24-2009, 01:11 PM
1) Umaga never won the Royal Rumble, was never King of the Ring and was definitely not a 3 time WWE Champion.
2) Umaga had already been in the WWE, as part of 3 Minute Warning. Lesnar genuinely was dominant from his debut.
3) He wouldn't have become John Cena's whooping boy for two, uh, sub-reasons:
i) John Cena was Lesnar's whooping boy.
ii) John Cena never has had a whooping boy. It's why people always complain, remember?

So, really, the Umaga comparison is flawed at best, and you should be voting kayfabe for reasons I have already outlined.

justinsayne
05-24-2009, 01:22 PM
Now take Justin for example. He's just completed the world's longest and hardest to read run-on sentence - if he decided that he wanted to take this accomplishment to a different forum, I'd lose a measure of respect for him.

:)

I never claimed to be the greatest poster ever, or even to have good grammer, and I have checked out other forums, the ones I've seen are run like shit

Anyway, I don't compare Lesnar to The Rock. Rock wrestled for several years, Brock for 2. TWO YEARS. Liger dominated his peers for over a decade on several continents. When Rock walked away, he did so pretty quietly until people started asking him questions. Brock flipped the fans in MSG off.

Brock tried to leave quietly, but word got out, and as for flipping off the fans, Brock was the fucking heel in that match what the fuck was he suppose to do?!?, it was all part of the fucking show, not to mention something Austin has been doing for over a fucking decade now, yet you don't seem to have a problem when he does that

Think about that. In his last match, because the fans knew about it, he thanked them with a hearty middle finger. "You all spent money to see me for the last two years? Well guess what, I'm leaving, and while I'm at it, fuck you all." Ridiculous.

Yeah it's called kayfabe, it was part of the show, that assholes at MSG taunted him so he threw a finger up, big fucking deal, it's not like the guy jump into the crowd and dropped his trunck and started shitting on the fans, for fuck sake, as PYT seems to love ot say, you're grasping at straws

No he didn't. If he wrestled till his contract was up then why did he sign another contract upon leaving stating that he wouldn't wrestle for another American based promotion? It's why there was a lawsuit between Lesnar & WWE. The lawsuit is also a partial reason why Lesnar didn't return to WWE after he didn't make it as an American Footballer.

Even so, he still wins the match.

Yeah, my mistake, I was always under the impression his contract was about to expire

jmt225
05-24-2009, 01:33 PM
Please show me a match that of Lesnar's that was as good as Batista vs. Undertaker from Wrestlemania or Batista vs. Cena from Summerslam.

Brock Lesnar vs. The Rock. And I would bet that most wrestling fans would agree, if they seen it.

He was a one dimensional wrestler.

How so?

I've said it numerous times...

amateur wrestling and professional wrestling have NOTHING to do with each other.

I know, but the fact remains that Lesnar's amateur wrestling background gave him credibility with the fans. In today's World, having a great wrestling or MMA background is going to make you more believable in the fan's eyes then a 'monster' character like Umaga. That was my point.

Liger has worked WELL with cruiserweights, heavyweights and super heavyweights.

And so has Brock Lesnar. Lesnar has had great matches against 'Taker, Show, Angle, Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, ect. In that list you have a SHW in Show, a couple of Heavies, and a Cruiseweight in Guerrero.

Like what? His match vs. Angle? It was the poorest drawing Wrestlemania since Wrestlemania 13. It was a piss bucket match, complete with a nice Lesnar botch at the end.

I thought the match was pretty good myself. Not great like it could've been, but not bad either.

And also, you can't blame the drawing of 'Mania 19 on Lesnar. Hogan vs. McMahon and Austin vs. Rock were the real headlines of the show.

Fine then, fuck Meltzer.

Now there's the Sly we all know and love.

Liger still has put on Match of the Year bouts, and was still the best aerial wrestler and technical wrestler. Forget what Meltzer says, just watch wrestling and you can tell that.

It's funny how you praise a match between Liger and one of the biggest "spot-monkeys" of all time in The Great Sasuke.

And what technical wrestlers were even around back then? Dynamite Kid and Tiger Mask were both gone by that point. It's not like Liger won these awards against tough competition. And the same case goes with the aerial argument as well. The only real competition there was Owen Hart and Brian Pillman. And you'll notice, when superior technical and aerial wrestlers like Chris Benoit and Rey Mysterio came along... Liger wasn't to be heard from.

And in 1990, most people probably would have thought Ultimate Warrior would have been too.

True, but look at what he did after that to burn bridges. Even with the lawsuit and all that nonsense... I'm pretty sure Brock is still on good terms with the company.

People throw the term "flash in the pan" around all the time for Warrior, but at least Warrior put on some of the greatest matches in the history of wrestling. Lesnar didn't even do that.

Yes he did. His match against The Rock was awesome, man, and one of the greatest WWE Title matches of all time. And his HITC match against Benoit was spectacular, too.

Sure they did. They were the ones that got that style of wrestling popular in America, which WCW continued to use with guys like Benoit, 2 Cold, Pillman, etc.

But it was ECW and then Bischoff who PUSHED those guys, not put them in dark matches and matches that didn't receive any recognition.

On no level can ANYONE say that Lesnar was even close in ability to Jushin Liger.

That's just false. The only thing Liger has over Lesnar is longevity and that's it.

Cena's Little Helper
05-24-2009, 02:15 PM
There are two things that I would like to point out.

1) It is possible for men of Liger's size to beat men of Lesnar's size. I was a little bit worried about the way Liger has been booked throughout his career, but then I remembered that this is in America, and in ECW to boot, where anything can happen. Kayfabe, Liger has a lot he can work with. Let's take a look at a match Brock Lesnar had with Rey Mysterio, Jr., which took place on Smackdown! (someone can help me with date, I know it was in 2002):

oFcTApkuIiw

Of course, this match ended in a DQ (or a no contest), but, more than anything, I want to touch on Mysterio's strategy here. Undoubtedly, Lesnar is as strong as an ox, and quite fast for his size. However, one of his biggest faults, as seen in this match, is that he's not very perceptive. He'll always be on the attack, but he never thinks of all the possible outcomes of his actions. For example, from 2:30 to about 2:55, Lesnar hunts for Mysterio, Jr., around the ring. Towards the end, Mysterio, Jr., ducks behind the steel stairs, and Lesnar just automatically assumes that Mysterio, Jr., is hiding behind the stairs. But, wait, wouldn't a more wary opponent consider whether or not Mysterio, Jr., may have slipped under the apron? Furthermore, wouldn't a more calculating wrestler want to consider how his opponent will think, and thus react accordingly?

In Liger, Lesnar will face someone who is a tad slower than Mysterio, Jr. But, he will be facing someone who has more endurance, more strength, who is an extremely dangerous striker, and who is a hell of a lot smarter. Liger can pick men of Lesnar's size up, I think the matches that myself and LigerBomb have referenced show that. But, Liger would never be stupid enough to go toe-to-toe with Lesnar from the start. He may have a small pissing contest with Lesnar early in the match to lure him into a false sense of security, but that would only be so Liger can get him on the mat to work on his legs.

2) Lesnar screwed NJPW over more than he did WWE. David vs. Goliath stories are extremely rare, yes. But, when they do occur, it is because the man who represents the David of the fight has impeccable character and an unconquerable desire to win. Liger has been a company man for NJPW for almost all of his career. Furthermore, he has come back from a badly broken leg and a brain tumor to not only wrestle, but to wrestle at the same extraordinary level he was wrestling at before his misfortunes (albeit in a different style). So, what does Lesnar's treatment of NJPW do for Liger? It only gives him that much more motivation to save face for a company that I am almost certain he'd die for.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-24-2009, 02:22 PM
There are two things that I would like to point out.

1) It is possible for men of Liger's size to beat men of Lesnar's size. I was a little bit worried about the way Liger has been booked throughout his career, but then I remembered that this is in America, and in ECW to boot, where anything can happen. Kayfabe, Liger has a lot he can work with. Let's take a look at a match Brock Lesnar had with Rey Mysterio, Jr., which took place on Smackdown! (someone can help me with date, I know it was in 2002):

oFcTApkuIiw

Of course, this match ended in a DQ (or a no contest), but, more than anything, I want to touch on Mysterio's strategy here. Undoubtedly, Lesnar is as strong as an ox, and quite fast for his size. However, one of his biggest faults, as seen in this match, is that he's not very perceptive. He'll always be on the attack, but he never thinks of all the possible outcomes of his actions. For example, from 2:30 to about 2:55, Lesnar hunts for Mysterio, Jr., around the ring. Towards the end, Mysterio, Jr., ducks behind the steel stairs, and Lesnar just automatically assumes that Mysterio, Jr., is hiding behind the stairs. But, wait, wouldn't a more wary opponent consider whether or not Mysterio, Jr., may have slipped under the apron? Furthermore, wouldn't a more calculating wrestler want to consider how his opponent will think, and thus react accordingly?

What that showed me is that Lesnar is smart. Instead of just rushing around like Batista might have done, he kicked the steps over, something that would have severely hurt Mysterio if he was hiding there. Sure, Brock got caught, but it did absolutely nothing to him. He popped right up, then caught Mysterio and used him to beat up the ring post.

In Liger, Lesnar will face someone who is a tad slower than Mysterio, Jr. But, he will be facing someone who has more endurance, more strength, who is an extremely dangerous striker, and who is a hell of a lot smarter. Liger can pick men of Lesnar's size up, I think the matches that myself and LigerBomb have referenced show that. But, Liger would never be stupid enough to go toe-to-toe with Lesnar from the start. He may have a small pissing contest with Lesnar early in the match to lure him into a false sense of security, but that would only be so Liger can get him on the mat to work on his legs.

Liger would be stupid to go hand to hand with Lesnar or try and pick him up. If Lesnar gets a hold of him, he's going to break him, simple as.

2) Lesnar screwed NJPW over more than he did WWE. David vs. Goliath stories are extremely rare, yes. But, when they do occur, it is because the man who represents the David of the fight has impeccable character and an unconquerable desire to win. Liger has been a company man for NJPW for almost all of his career. Furthermore, he has come back from a badly broken leg and a brain tumor to not only wrestle, but to wrestle at the same extraordinary level he was wrestling at before his misfortunes (albeit in a different style). So, what does Lesnar's treatment of NJPW do for Liger? It only gives him that much more motivation to save face for a company that I am almost certain he'd die for.

If he's not careful and he lets his emotions take control here, he might piss Brock Lesnar off and he might just kill Liger.

Cena's Little Helper
05-24-2009, 02:38 PM
What that showed me is that Lesnar is smart. Instead of just rushing around like Batista might have done, he kicked the steps over, something that would have severely hurt Mysterio if he was hiding there. Sure, Brock got caught, but it did absolutely nothing to him. He popped right up, then caught Mysterio and used him to beat up the ring post.

No, this shows that Lesnar likes to take chances. Not only can Liger get under the ring just like Mysterio, Jr., but, had he had the same opportunity as Mysterio, Jr., he would have done a lot more harm to Lesnar.

What you say could possibly have been true though, I won't deny that. Maybe, because of the size difference between him and Mysterio, Jr., Lesnar felt that he could take risks that he otherwise could not have taken. But, unfortunately for you, Lesnar employed this same strategy in almost every match he had in WWE.

Liger would be stupid to go hand to hand with Lesnar or try and pick him up. If Lesnar gets a hold of him, he's going to break him, simple as.

Liger could pick up Lesnar, and he would do so only after he had disposed of him properly, something that you have yet to show that he couldn't do (nice try though, trying to take what I said out of context). Also, it's not as if Liger needs to pick up Lesnar to beat him. He has so many other strategies at his disposal.

If he's not careful and he lets his emotions take control here, he might piss Brock Lesnar off and he might just kill Liger.

Liger has always maintained his cool in the ring. It wouldn't be any different here. Thus, there's no possibility of this scenario ever playing out. The only way that you could ever refute my statement is if you were able to show that a significant desire to avenge always precluded one from actually doing so. Good luck trying to do that.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-24-2009, 02:55 PM
No, this shows that Lesnar likes to take chances. Not only can Liger get under the ring just like Mysterio, Jr., but, had he had the same opportunity as Mysterio, Jr., he would have done a lot more harm to Lesnar.

Like what, exactly? What can Liger do that would have done significant damage to Lesnar in that situation?

What you say could possibly have been true though, I won't deny that. Maybe, because of the size difference between him and Mysterio, Jr., Lesnar felt that he could take risks that he otherwise could not have taken. But, unfortunately for you, Lesnar employed this same strategy in almost every match he had in WWE.

Didn't you watch him slow down and discuss his strategy with Heyman? He took the time to examine the situation and he did the smartest thing. He kicked over the stairs. Would it have been smarter for him to get on his knees and pull the ring curtain up? No.

Liger could pick up Lesnar, and he would do so only after he had disposed of him properly, something that you have yet to show that he couldn't do (nice try though, trying to take what I said out of context). Also, it's not as if Liger needs to pick up Lesnar to beat him. He has so many other strategies at his disposal.

You've yet to prove that he can. You say that Liger has all these strategies to dispose of Lesnar, yet you haven't actually mentioned any. You know what strategy Lesnar is going to employ against Liger? He's going to beat him into the canvas.

Liger has always maintained his cool in the ring. It wouldn't be any different here. Thus, there's no possibility of this scenario ever playing out. The only way that you could ever refute my statement is if you were able to show that a significant desire to avenge always precluded one from actually doing so. Good luck trying to do that.

Then why does his wanting to save face for NJPW mean anything in this match? If he's going to do as he always does, then nothing happens.

Cena's Little Helper
05-24-2009, 03:38 PM
Like what, exactly? What can Liger do that would have done significant damage to Lesnar in that situation?

How about his shotei (palm heel thrusts)? How about his kicks? Oh, right, I forgot, he's smaller than Brock Lesnar, so obviously those can't do any damage to him. I'm about twice the size of Floyd Mayweather, Jr. I guess that means I can go in the ring with him, huh? :rolleyes:

Didn't you watch him slow down and discuss his strategy with Heyman? He took the time to examine the situation and he did the smartest thing. He kicked over the stairs. Would it have been smarter for him to get on his knees and pull the ring curtain up? No.

Nice try trying to act as if there are only two options. How about going into the ring and waiting for the ten count? Or, just standing back parallel to the ring so that you can get a good look on both sides of you? These would be smart strategies, but none that Brock Lesnar would employ, because maiming and going on the offensive are the only things he knows. Furthermore, why the hell would you ever want to consult with someone who bankrupted a veritable cash cow?

You've yet to prove that he can. You say that Liger has all these strategies to dispose of Lesnar, yet you haven't actually mentioned any. You know what strategy Lesnar is going to employ against Liger? He's going to beat him into the canvas.

This is laughable, man. Have you not read any of the posts that I have made for Liger throughout this Tournament? Feigning ignorance here straight-up doesn't work, as both LigerBomb and I have already discussed Liger's strategies. But, here, I'll mention two of them for you right now:

Here's his match with Samoa Joe at Bound For Glory (23 October 2005):

WS28nerTDS8

Check out what happens between 3:00 and 3:31. Obviously, Samoa Joe is a hell of a lot stronger than Jushin Liger, and it shows in this series of shoulder blocks that they do here. But, what does Liger do? He lulls Joe into a false sense of security, as I already mentioned, and asks Joe to go to the ropes to initiate a shoulder block. Joe, thinking that it's going to be easy for him, gladly honors Liger's request. But, what happens? Liger ducks the block and takes Joe down with a toehold trip his next time around. So, from this, we know that Liger is more than capable of getting big men on the mat.

Here's a match he had Keiji Mutoh sometime earlier this decade (if anyone can give me the exact date, I'd appreciate it):

0dGBhjF-iiY

Liger begins to work Mutoh's left leg all throughout this match at 5:06. How did Liger find the opening to work on Mutoh's leg? By lulling him into a false sense of security by pretending that he wanted to get into a battle of strength with him (although, oddly enough, Liger is probably just as strong as Mutoh, although Japanese booking would have you believe otherwise). Furthermore, look at the moonsault Liger does at 12:25. That's not poor aim; rather, that's a man dedicated to his strategy of taking out Mutoh's left leg. He would be just as tenacious with Lesnar.

So, there you go. I've given you some proof. So, why don't you start talking about your man Lesnar, instead of talking shit about a wrestler you obviously know nothing about? Because, I can tell you right now, you aren't doing any favors for him with this talk about how he'll just pummel Liger into the mat.

Then why does his wanting to save face for NJPW mean anything in this match? If he's going to do as he always does, then nothing happens.

What the hell are you talking about here? The only thing that's going to remain constant with Liger is his ability to keep his cool in matches; he'll always switch things up, and tailor his strategies to the weaknesses of his opponents. I fail to see how this cancels out his ability to be more motivated to win.

justinsayne
05-24-2009, 04:06 PM
How about his shotei (palm heel thrusts)? How about his kicks? Oh, right, I forgot, he's smaller than Brock Lesnar, so obviously those can't do any damage to him.

:lmao: Well RVD tried a similer strategy lets see how it worked out for him...

-OFqlsX7QbI

Hmm well look at that he loss, Liger can try all the kciks and palm heel thrusts he wants, at the end of the day they won't do a danm thing, I'll give Liger credit is a great wrestler, and this match would be a lot more competitive then most people think, but I just can't see anyway in which he beats Lesnar much less beats Lesnar in an environment like ECW where anything goes, Liger is going up against a guy who in one year took out RVD, Rock, Hogan, Undertaker, Big Show, and Kurt Angle, Lesnar has faced pretty much every type of wrestler out there, whether they by high flyers, technical, power, you name it, he's taken them on and beaten them, I'm sorry but nothing short of a miracle is going to keep Lesnar from winning this match

Cena's Little Helper
05-24-2009, 04:52 PM
:lmao: Well RVD tried a similer strategy lets see how it worked out for him...

-OFqlsX7QbI

Hmm well look at that he loss, Liger can try all the kciks and palm heel thrusts he wants, at the end of the day they won't do a danm thing, I'll give Liger credit is a great wrestler, and this match would be a lot more competitive then most people think, but I just can't see anyway in which he beats Lesnar much less beats Lesnar in an environment like ECW where anything goes, Liger is going up against a guy who in one year took out RVD, Rock, Hogan, Undertaker, Big Show, and Kurt Angle, Lesnar has faced pretty much every type of wrestler out there, whether they by high flyers, technical, power, you name it, he's taken them on and beaten them, I'm sorry but nothing short of a miracle is going to keep Lesnar from winning this match

All this match does is prove that low kicks are quite effective in neutralizing Brock Lesnar. This was actually quite a good strategy on Van Dam's part.

What lost Van Dam the match? Well, at 3:04, he tries to jump on top of Lesnar's shoulders in one of the corners. Why the hell would you ever do that? Liger would be smart enough not to do something like that. He'd keep to the ground and only go to the ropes when Lesnar was down. You could make the argument that Lesnar would get up and take Liger off of the top rope, but I think Liger would be too fast in the execution of any rope work for Lesnar to be able to get up and be alert by the time Liger flies down upon him.

Things actually pick up for Van Dam again at the end, but, he worries too much about Paul Heyman on the outside and he decides to jump off the ropes onto a standing Lesnar, which is another big no-no. As I already stated, Liger wouldn't be dumb (or prideful) enough to get into a position where Lesnar could either catch-slam or catch-suplex him.

If anything, it seems that Van Dam lost this match for himself. Had he stuck to striking, he probably would have beaten Lesnar.

Uncle Sam
05-24-2009, 05:04 PM
The words "straws", "at" and "clutching" come to mind; not necessarily in that order. The way you write, it's like you're being contrary for the sake of it. Sly's "don't vote kayfabe - for some reason - and hey, look at this collection of random letters with the word "championship" repeated over and over" strategy was smarter.

Had RVD carried on striking he'd have beaten Lesnar? Come on! Seriously? You can show matches where Lesnar's had moderate difficulty against little guys and even the one occasion where he was absolutely screwed out of victory, but the matter of fact is Liger has lost to a lot of bottom of the barrel American wrestlers, or at least been taken to the limit by them.

I'm sure if this were an actual match, the announcers would start talking about how Liger had "heart". It would be at that point that the viewer would realise that, oh shit, he's going to get destroyed.

Cena's Little Helper
05-24-2009, 06:12 PM
The words "straws", "at" and "clutching" come to mind; not necessarily in that order. The way you write, it's like you're being contrary for the sake of it. Sly's "don't vote kayfabe - for some reason - and hey, look at this collection of random letters with the word "championship" repeated over and over" strategy was smarter.

Had RVD carried on striking he'd have beaten Lesnar? Come on! Seriously? You can show matches where Lesnar's had moderate difficulty against little guys and even the one occasion where he was absolutely screwed out of victory, but the matter of fact is Liger has lost to a lot of bottom of the barrel American wrestlers, or at least been taken to the limit by them.

I'm sure if this were an actual match, the announcers would start talking about how Liger had "heart". It would be at that point that the viewer would realise that, oh shit, he's going to get destroyed.

Actually, I'm hardly clutching at straws. But, I wouldn't expect anything of substance from you, seeing as how your arguments hardly ever consist of anything more than a Horse Laugh, or an appeal to ridicule.

Moreover, there's nothing here really that says anything about why Brock Lesnar should go over Liger. So, I tell you that RVD could have beat Lesnar with strikes, and you say, "Come on!"? If this was a slap in the face to common sense like you seem to think it is, then I would have people jumping on me left and right. I'll give it some more time, but something tells me you're deluding yourself into thinking that what I have to say is absurd.

Didn't you tell me once that I should argue why Muta should go over Samoa Joe, and didn't I then proceed to show you a match that showed Muta not only beating someone of Joe's build and caliber, but also why he is one of the greatest heels in the history of professional wrestling?

I've stepped up to the plate numerous times here to make my case. And, I will continue to do so with Liger. But, if you want to go at it with me in here, please present an argument, rather than unjustified mockery disguised as an argument.

gd
05-24-2009, 06:44 PM
I have a reason that Liger can win, and it has nothing to do with shitting on the business, John Cena, or anything like that.

Two things I see going against Lesnar in this match, inexperience and overconfidence.

Like he has probably done for this whole tournament, Lesnar will go into this match assuming victory before it starts. Liger isn't an imposing figure to look at and Lesnar will think that he can destroy him just like he did Jeff Hardy, Elix Skipper and others. There is a problem though, Liger is a hell of a lot better than those guys.

The fact that Lesnar only wrestled for 2 years compared to Liger who wrestled 10 times as long is also a factor. Liger has seen almost every situation possible in his matches and has faced a wider variety of more diverse opponents than Lesnar.

What is this all leading to in the end? Something that Liger could use to keep Lesnar down for 3 seconds, a roll up. Brock is sure to get cocky after throwing Liger around the ring for a little bit, and one false move could lead to a quick school boy and a win for Liger.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-24-2009, 07:05 PM
One more reason that Lesnar should go over here is that Jushin Liger has had to go through matches with Batista and Shawn Michaels in a hardcore environment. That has to take a toll on his body. Brock Lesnar has rolled in his matches, destroying Elix Skipper, Magnum TA, and Jeff Hardy.

gd
05-24-2009, 07:33 PM
All the more reason that Lesnar will be overconfident in this match. Liger will be on top of his game after competing against such high quality opponents. Lesnar will be rusty and unprepared.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-24-2009, 07:36 PM
All the more reason that Lesnar will be overconfident in this match. Liger will be on top of his game after competing against such high quality opponents. Lesnar will be rusty and unprepared.

He will be in no way rusty. Magnum TA was a top class competitor before his car accident and would have been a good pre-game meal. Then he beat Jeff Hardy, someone comparative in size and speed to Liger. Consider that the pre-game shoot-around. Now, he's on to the game. Lesnar will be ready. He'll be focused.

gd
05-24-2009, 07:41 PM
Wait, I thought he squashed them? You are just flip flopping here. If they are great competitors, surely Lesnar will be worn out too.

Even if Liger is tired, the roll up will win it.

ZEUS
05-24-2009, 08:01 PM
Then he beat Jeff Hardy, someone comparative in size and speed to Liger.

Jeff Hardy is comparable in size to Liger, but not speed. Liger is way faster than Jeff Hardy. I think a lot of people overestimate Hardy's speed, just because he jumps off of stuff doesn't make him fast. For a crusierweight, Jeff is actually kind of slow. Liger is way faster.

Shocky
05-24-2009, 08:41 PM
Most of the stuff in here as simply turned from a Brock Lesnar vs. Jushin Thunder Liger match, to a bash Brock for reasons that have nothing to do with this match, in an attempt to get him out of the tournament, and it's really not worth dignifying with a response.

So I'll go onto TDigle, who is the only one at least attempting to make an argument for Liger, by making an argument for Liger as opposed to making an argument of unrelated non wrestling issues to take down Brock Lesnar.

TDigs, I just ask you, does Liger have the high impact move, ora lower leg submission (both things that Brock has been succeptable to in the past) that can take him down in this match?

Again, i'm not going to come in here and bash Liger, because Jushin Liger is fucking phenomenal, so if there is an argument to be made, make it.

SavageTaker
05-24-2009, 08:43 PM
I think that the Liger camp is doing a very good job in trying to get Liger the win over Lesnar. But right now I am leaning towards Lesnar. There's still a lot of time to try and convince me to vote for Liger so I might always change my mind.

I think that Lesnar is stronger than Liger and this will help him a lot in this match. He will be able to use his strength to take down Liger and will try and keep him down so that Liger is not able to to his any aerial moves or any other move that Lesnar knows will give Liger an advantage.

If Lesnar can do enough damage to Liger then I say that this match is his, but he has to be very careful because If he makes one little and careless mistake then Liger will catch him on it and capitalize on that mistake.

My vote is on Lesnar but I might be swayed to vote for Liger.

Slyfox696
05-24-2009, 09:09 PM
One more reason that Lesnar should go over here is that Jushin Liger has had to go through matches with Batista and Shawn Michaels in a hardcore environment. That has to take a toll on his body. Brock Lesnar has rolled in his matches, destroying Elix Skipper, Magnum TA, and Jeff Hardy.
He will be in no way rusty. Magnum TA was a top class competitor before his car accident and would have been a good pre-game meal. Then he beat Jeff Hardy, someone comparative in size and speed to Liger. Consider that the pre-game shoot-around. Now, he's on to the game. Lesnar will be ready. He'll be focused.
Wait...Liger is tired because he beat Batista and Shawn Michaels, but Lesnar isn't tired when beating a "top class competitor" and a former World Champion?

There's a saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words". I believe I can come up with a picture to define your logic here...

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k47/slyfox696_22/logic.jpg

Most of the stuff in here as simply turned from a Brock Lesnar vs. Jushin Thunder Liger match, to a bash Brock for reasons that have nothing to do with this match, in an attempt to get him out of the tournament, and it's really not worth dignifying with a response.

So I'll go onto TDigle, who is the only one at least attempting to make an argument for Liger, by making an argument for Liger as opposed to making an argument of unrelated non wrestling issues to take down Brock Lesnar.I take offense to this statement, as the majority of my argument has been towards Liger's greatness, to go along with Lesnar's overratedness.

I think that Lesnar is stronger than Liger and this will help him a lot in this match.Mark Henry was a lot stronger than the Undertaker, but that didn't stop Taker from winning at Wrestlemania.

He will be able to use his strength to take down Liger and will try and keep him down so that Liger is not able to to his any aerial moves or any other move that Lesnar knows will give Liger an advantage.Lesnar has never been able to do this in any match, why would he suddenly be able to now?

My vote is on Lesnar but I might be swayed to vote for Liger.You should vote for Liger. Most people here vote for Lesnar because Liger is from Japan, and because they are brainwashed into thinking that because Lesnar does well in UFC, he could beat one of the greatest wrestlers in the history of the business.

Don't be like them. Vote for quality over inexperience.

justinsayne
05-24-2009, 09:34 PM
I have a reason that Liger can win, and it has nothing to do with shitting on the business, John Cena, or anything like that.

Two things I see going against Lesnar in this match, inexperience and overconfidence.

Like he has probably done for this whole tournament, Lesnar will go into this match assuming victory before it starts. Liger isn't an imposing figure to look at and Lesnar will think that he can destroy him just like he did Jeff Hardy, Elix Skipper and others. There is a problem though, Liger is a hell of a lot better than those guys.

The fact that Lesnar only wrestled for 2 years compared to Liger who wrestled 10 times as long is also a factor. Liger has seen almost every situation possible in his matches and has faced a wider variety of more diverse opponents than Lesnar.

What is this all leading to in the end? Something that Liger could use to keep Lesnar down for 3 seconds, a roll up. Brock is sure to get cocky after throwing Liger around the ring for a little bit, and one false move could lead to a quick school boy and a win for Liger.

Lesnar has destroyed guys like Rock, Flair, Hogan, Undertaker, RVD, Kurt Angle, Mysterio, Big Show, Edge, & Benoit, some of the best in the business, youmake it sound like the dude made career out squashing jobbers, please, Lesanr is more than capable of taking Liger apart, he won't steamroll his way through the match like he did with Hardy and Skipper, but he'll certainly come out the fucking winner, if the fore mentioned names couldn't figure out how score a quick roll up on Lesnar I don't how the fuck you think Liger would

SavageTaker
05-24-2009, 09:42 PM
Mark Henry was a lot stronger than the Undertaker, but that didn't stop Taker from winning at Wrestlemania.

You make a good point Sly but I think that The Undertaker being able to overcome Mark Henry's strength comparison shouldn't be used here because the Undertaker and Liger are different wrestlers.

Lesnar has never been able to do this in any match, why would he suddenly be able to now?

Another good point Sly. I now think about that and realize that Lesnar has always been an overly cocky and overly confident performer so he would think that he doesn't need to use his strength early on, but when he would finally realize that he does indeed need to use his strength but it would probably be to late to use it.

You should vote for Liger. Most people here vote for Lesnar because Liger is from Japan, and because they are brainwashed into thinking that because Lesnar does well in UFC, he could beat one of the greatest wrestlers in the history of the business.

I don't think that the fact that he has had a successful career in UFC thus far should come into play for an argument for Lesnar. Reason for this is that we are talking about WWE Lesnar, which came before the UFC Lesnar.

Don't be like them. Vote for quality over inexperience.

I will more than Likely vote Liger now, no as a matter of fact I will vote Liger.But there is still a small possibility that I might vote Lesnar and in order for that to happen it better be a very good argument.

For now the Liger camp has gotten my vote.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-24-2009, 10:49 PM
You make a good point Sly but I think that The Undertaker being able to overcome Mark Henry's strength comparison shouldn't be used here because the Undertaker and Liger are different wrestlers.

The Undertaker is a phenomenal wrestler. Mark Henry is a jobber. Jushin Liger is not facing a jobber in Brock Lesnar.

Another good point Sly. I now think about that and realize that Lesnar has always been an overly cocky and overly confident performer so he would think that he doesn't need to use his strength early on, but when he would finally realize that he does indeed need to use his strength but it would probably be to late to use it.

Why would Brock Lesnar ever decide to not use his overwhelming strength? That's stupid. In fact, I think it is impossible to not use your strength. What is he going to do? Will he go into the match thinking, "Well, ya know... I have this huge strength advantage over this guy, but meh.. I think I'll try to do flips and such and I'll not just power him around the ring." Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

I don't think that the fact that he has had a successful career in UFC thus far should come into play for an argument for Lesnar. Reason for this is that we are talking about WWE Lesnar, which came before the UFC Lesnar.

We can take into account his NCAA championships in wrestling, though. That proves that Brock Lesnar, if indeed grounded by Jushin Liger, can play that game just as well as our Japanese friend.

I will more than Likely vote Liger now, no as a matter of fact I will vote Liger.But there is still a small possibility that I might vote Lesnar and in order for that to happen it better be a very good argument.

The arguments for Liger have been horrible, save for Tdig's.

For now the Liger camp has gotten my vote.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images11/SheepINGrass1.JPG

ZEUS
05-25-2009, 02:41 AM
PYT-

1) Mark Henry isn't a jobber. He has main evented ppv's, he is a legit force as "The World's Strongest Man". I will give you that he is in no way even close to being as good as Lesnar, but your argument is once again flawed.

2) You completely missed the point of the "overconfident" post. Of course he wouldn't be trying to wrestle an aerial match. There is a long history in pro wrestling of big men who don't come out hard against smaller men. Even Brock, in his match against Eddie, wasn't overly dominant compared to his matches with larger, stronger opponents.

3) No, you cannot take his amateur background into account. If amateur skills had any relevance to the success of a pro wrestler, Charlie Haas would be a main eventer rather than an afterthought.

4) I would say the Lesnar arguments are horrible. There have been few attempts to convince people that Lesnar is that good, it has just been counter attacks on why Liger isn't that good.

5) Calling someone a sheep because you haven't done a good job convincing them of your opinion is poor form.

Shocky
05-25-2009, 05:41 AM
And How is Lesnar not that good. He's stronger, I daresay faster, he's better on the mic, he's more athletic, he's just as, if not more quick then Liger.

Liger did a lot for the business, but did a lot for the light heavyweight division. Nothing wrong with that at all. However, Brock lesnar came into the main event level of the WWE before the Brand Extension, and mowed everyone down in his path before him. Brock Lesnar was the only wrestler this decade that I gave a shit about. He's the only person that the WWE has produced that made me watch the show he was on faithfullyl, because he was that gifted. Even when he left the WWE, he had good success over seas. It's not like he received the WWE push, and then that push failed like all hell once he left.

Sly will have you think that he is Umaga, but I ask you, how many Royal Rumbles has Umaga won. How many World titles did Koslov win? How many King of the Rings? How many Summerslams or Wrestlemanias did they close out? The argument that Brock was these guys is a piss poor argument, because those guys wish they had 1/8th of the ability and push that Brock got.

On a roster that was loaded with WWE talent, a merger of talent of all of the young WCW guys, and OVW roster filled with guys like John Cena, Randy Orton, Dave Batista, a WWE Main Event roster filled with guys like Hulk Hogan, Triple H, Chris Jericho, The Rock, The Undertaker, Big Show, Kurt Angle, Ric Flair a returning Shawn Michaels, I could go on forever, and guess who was chosen over all of these guys to be the man in the company...Brock Lesnar.

Flash in the pans don't dominate stacked rosters for two years. Umaga, Koslov, their pushes went 9 months before people tired out on them. Brock made it two years with a solid push before he chose to do something else. Every other argument from that point on is what if? Oh well, Brock's push would have ended and he would have leveled out. Bullshit. You don't know that, and I don't know that. It's a bad argument and you know it.

As for Floyd Mayweather fighting you because your bigger, I think Tdigs said that. Come on TDigs, are you a trained fighter? Brock Lesnar was a trained professional, maybe not as polished in the end, but he was still damn good enough to beat everyone that was placed in front of him. Floyd Mayweather, like Jushin Liger, is one of the best pound for pound in the ring, but If Mike Tyson was standing on the opposite side of the ring from Money mayweather, my money is on the right hook of Iron Mike. A good big man beats a great small man 9 times out of 10, the problem is, Brock Lesnar isn't good, he's great.

Bigger, Stronger, Faster, just as fit cardio wise, meaner, more dominate. Brock Lesnar wins this match.

Uncle Sam
05-25-2009, 07:46 AM
Actually, I'm hardly clutching at straws.

You are.

But, I wouldn't expect anything of substance from you, seeing as how your arguments hardly ever consist of anything more than a Horse Laugh, or an appeal to ridicule.

What's a horse laugh?

Moreover, there's nothing here really that says anything about why Brock Lesnar should go over Liger.

So you just ignored the part where I said about how you can show where Lesnar had moderate difficulty against smaller men but Liger has often lost to bottom of the barrel wrestlers in the States? I would've repeated the information about Lesnar being stronger, faster and, indeed, capable of smothering Liger, but I thought that it was getting used and then ignored too often.

So, I tell you that RVD could have beat Lesnar with strikes, and you say, "Come on!"? If this was a slap in the face to common sense like you seem to think it is, then I would have people jumping on me left and right.

Well, no. Not really. You wouldn't have, would you?

Point was, when has RVD ever defeated anyone using only strikes? He may well have a couple of times in some obscure ECW matches, but he certainly hadn't in his WWE career, and couldn't have defeated Lesnar that way. Hence why he climbed the top rope, because going there was the only way he ever earned a victory.

I'll give it some more time, but something tells me you're deluding yourself into thinking that what I have to say is absurd.

'Tis.

Didn't you tell me once that I should argue why Muta should go over Samoa Joe, and didn't I then proceed to show you a match that showed Muta not only beating someone of Joe's build and caliber, but also why he is one of the greatest heels in the history of professional wrestling?

Did you? I remember waiting for a response for what was maybe a day, then not bothering to check back after that. I certainly don't remember that post.

I've stepped up to the plate numerous times here to make my case. And, I will continue to do so with Liger. But, if you want to go at it with me in here, please present an argument, rather than unjustified mockery disguised as an argument.

Most the time I post I get a response from you like "Oh my God, look who's being sarcastic again." You the stretch it for several paragraphs. There was that one time where I wasn't even sarcastic. I double checked. You had been though.

Changed Name
05-25-2009, 08:18 AM
q2X8Jnu43

I dont know, did this video come up?

Anyway, this is RVD beating Brock Lesnar clean, during Brock Lesnars huge KOTR winning, Rock/Undertaker beating, Royal Rumble winning push, even Heyman knows he's beat, which is why he pulls the ref out of the ring. Then later on the only thing that stops Lesnar's face from becoming even more ugly is once again, Paul Heyman.

Basically, Lesnar is and always has been susceptable to talented smaller, quick guys, RVD had this match won despite making stupid mistakes throughout the entire thing. Jushin Liger doesnt make stupid mistakes and possesses the high-flying and striking skills of RVD, as well as a great technical game.

Still not sure which way to go, but I think it's an interesting case for Liger.

pyrusane
05-25-2009, 08:50 AM
I offer for your consideration the following match, where Brock defends his IWGP Title against Shinsuke Nakamura.
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The match actually starts around the 8:19 point of part one. Now, I won't suggest that Nakamura is at the same level as Liger, but I offer this as an example of Brock working a match in Japan against a competitor who would work a similar style to Liger. And Nakamura isn't exactly a jobber, he is a two-time IWGP champion who won his second title from none other than Kurt Angle. His first title reign began in 2003, and he was the youngest wrestler to ever win the IWGP title. He gets in some impressive offense on Lesnar, but never seems to have a legitimate chance to beat him. The second part shows the majority of the match. Around the 5:00 mark Nakamura seems to take control, hitting a top rope dropkick that Lesnar just rolls out from, hitting a German suplex that Lesnar gets back to a knee immediately after. At about the 5:41 mark Shinsuke locks on a submission hold on the mat, Lesnar picks him up and throws him off.

Vote Lesnar.

LigerBomb
05-25-2009, 11:08 AM
Why I will personally be voting Jushin Thunder Liger:

Kayfabe-wise I honestly believe Liger has a complete and unique enough set of tools to beat Brock Lesnar. I'm not naive enough to think he would/could beat him every time, but enough times that I feel my vote is justified.
Along these lines I think the Hardcore environment definitely favors Liger as he has great experience in these matches and when working his Black Liger heel gimmick or his Kishin gimmick is more brutal, unforgiving, and takes it to the level he would need to to beat the green monster Brock Lesnar.
Non-Kayfabe I respect what Jushin Liger has done for the business a lot more than what Lesnar has(n't) done for it.
He's my favorite foreign/Japanese pro-wrestler and has been for more than fifteen years.
Fan wise I have been vastly more entertained as a pro-wrestling fan by the Liger matches I've seen than the Lesnar matches I've seen. The few times I did enjoy Lesnar matches it's because he was being carried by the guy in the opposite corner. And yes I'm one of the "smarky" New Yorkers who boo'd and taunted both Goldberg and Lesnar live at Wrestlemania 20, and it was some of the most fun I've ever had at a wrestling show.If this is to determine the best Pro Wrestler ever I'm giving my vote to the one who has done more for the business, is the better worker, personally entertained me more; who I've spent money/time on seeing live by driving to other states for, who I've bought numerous tapes and later DVDs of; and not the guy who bored me to tears, perpetually made me want to change the channel, and kept my wallet closed.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/stfuphotobucket/MSPaintLiger.jpg
I don't have enough "real" posts to have a fancy sig so here's a MS Paint Liger instead

gd
05-25-2009, 03:04 PM
Lesnar has destroyed guys like Rock, Flair, Hogan, Undertaker, RVD, Kurt Angle, Mysterio, Big Show, Edge, & Benoit, some of the best in the business

Yes, but he has also lost to some of these guys, as well as Eddie Guerrero. I truly believe that Liger is as good as or better all of these guys and would have a very good chance of beating Lesnar.

youmake it sound like the dude made career out squashing jobbers,

No, but that's what he has been doing for the last 3 weeks of this tournament, and I believe that he will be rusty and off of his game. I also think that while he may have faced those big names, Liger has faced even more big names many times in his career. I think that his experience definetly gives him an edge.

please, Lesanr is more than capable of taking Liger apart,
he won't steamroll his way through the match like he did with Hardy and Skipper,

Lesnar knows that he has all of the tools to go into the match and beat Liger. I think he will be overconfident and that will hurt him. Much like the Lesnar supporters, who've admitted they've "half-assed" the matches so far, I believe Brock has done so too. He will certainly think that he can do the same thing facing someone like Liger.

but he'll certainly come out the fucking winner,

No, he won't.

if the fore mentioned names couldn't figure out how score a quick roll up on Lesnar I don't how the fuck you think Liger would

Because I think that Liger is an infinitely better and more experienced wrestler than any of the people who Lesnar has faced thus far in the tournament, and he would be smart enough to realize that a roll up would be his best chance of defeated a cocky Lesnar.

Uncle Sam
05-25-2009, 03:15 PM
Yes, but he has also lost to some of these guys, as well as Eddie Guerrero.

Seriously, people need to stop bringing this up. People were lucky if they got up from Goldberg's spear alone; Lesnar had had a match before it and then got frog splashed.

I truly believe that Liger is as good as or better all of these guys and would have a very good chance of beating Lesnar.

And I reckon Lesnar is a notch or two above Flyin' Brian Pillman.

I think that his experience definetly gives him an edge.

You'd think so, but no. Experience rarely gives someone an advantage in professional wrestling. If anything, the opposite is true. I mean, Lesnar is living, breathing proof of that. I'm not sure if he ever had a match against someone with less experience than him, and devastated experienced legends in their home environments - The Undertaker springs to mind.

Lesnar knows that he has all of the tools to go into the match and beat Liger. I think he will be overconfident and that will hurt him.

You might have a point, if not an incredibly solid one. Lesnar had an ego alright, but he rarely - if ever - made silly mistakes. He proved time and time again that his ego was justified.

Because I think that Liger is an infinitely better and more experienced wrestler than any of the people who Lesnar has faced thus far in the tournament, and he would be smart enough to realize that a roll up would be his best chance of defeated a cocky Lesnar.

I didn't use the roll up argument for AJ vs. Triple H. I could have, but I refrained.

gd
05-25-2009, 03:28 PM
Seriously, people need to stop bringing this up. People were lucky if they got up from Goldberg's spear alone; Lesnar had had a match before it and then got frog splashed.

I'm just making saying it was someone Lesnar lost to. It wasn't clean, but it was a loss nonetheless.

And I reckon Lesnar is a notch or two above Flyin' Brian Pillman.

Yes, but I still think Liger is good enough to beat him. He has the ability to play up to the level of his competition, as well as play down to the level of his competition, like against Pillman.


You'd think so, but no. Experience rarely gives someone an advantage in professional wrestling.

I would strongly disagree. The more matches you have, the more situations you've been in, and the more ready you will be to deal with them when they happen again.

If anything, the opposite is true.

I don't see how inexperience would ever be a advantage.

I mean, Lesnar is living, breathing proof of that. I'm not sure if he ever had a match against someone with less experience than him, and devastated experienced legends in their home environments - The Undertaker springs to mind.

Yes, but that is when there was very little known about him. After two years of wrestling he wouldn't have a ton of experience, yet there would be enough for Liger to study to get prepared for the match.


You might have a point, if not an incredibly solid one. Lesnar had an ego alright, but he rarely - if ever - made silly mistakes. He proved time and time again that his ego was justified.

I agree that his ego was justified, he had a ton of talent. However, I can see him letting up for a couple of seconds or making that one mistake that would allow Liger to capitilize.



I didn't use the roll up argument for AJ vs. Triple H. I could have, but I refrained.

You should have used it. It is a valid argument and is one of the most likely ways that a man like Liger could defeat a man like Lesnar.

Uncle Sam
05-25-2009, 04:21 PM
I'm just making saying it was someone Lesnar.

Lol. What?

It wasn't clean, but it was a loss nonetheless.

True, but since it wasn't clean, it's not relevant - unless you're suggesting Goldberg comes out and spears Lesnar in this match as well. Of course, you're not.

Yes, but I still think Liger is good enough to beat him. He has the ability to play up to the level of his competition, as well as play down to the level of his competition, like against Pillman.

You know what Ryu's special power from Street Fighter is? To bring out the best in his opponent. Terrible ability. The man gets consistently owned.

I would strongly disagree. The more matches you have, the more situations you've been in, and the more ready you will be to deal with them when they happen again.

Lesnar had never been in a Hell in a Cell match before. However, he managed to leave a dent in The Undertaker's head, catch him in mid-air, hoist him onto his shoulders, hit the F-5 and still had enough energy left over at the end to climb the cell and celebrate.

I don't see how inexperience would ever be a disadvantage.


Precisely.

Yes, but that is when there was very little known about him. After two years of wrestling he wouldn't have a ton of experience, yet there would be enough for Liger to study to get prepared for the match.

Then Lesnar's just lucky to have an opponent that has such an extensive back catalogue of matches to study up on?

You should have used it. It is a valid argument and is one of the most likely ways that a man like Liger could defeat a man like Lesnar.

I think it's pretty cheap, to be honest.

A better argument is that Lesnar hoists Liger onto his shoulders and, showing incredible power, hits a triple power bomb, as he's been known to do.

gd
05-25-2009, 04:31 PM
True, but since it wasn't clean, it's not relevant - unless you're suggesting Goldberg comes out and spears Lesnar in this match as well. Of course, you're not.

No, I'm just suggesting that Lesnar doesn't automatically win every match because he is the most talented.


You know what Ryu's special power from Street Fighter is? To bring out the best in his opponent. Terrible ability. The man gets consistently owned.

Liger plays up to the level of his opponent, he doesn't bring out the best in them. I'm saying that Liger would be able to at least match up with Lesnar in this match, and likely beat him.


Lesnar had never been in a Hell in a Cell match before. However, he managed to leave a dent in The Undertaker's head, catch him in mid-air, hoist him onto his shoulders, hit the F-5 and still had enough energy left over at the end to climb the cell and celebrate.

This isn't a Hell in a Cell match against the Undertaker.


Then Lesnar's just lucky to have an opponent that has such an extensive back catalogue of matches to study up on?

Lesnar doesn't strike me as a studier. I don't think he'd have the patience to watch too many of Liger's matches.


I think it's pretty cheap, to be honest.

All's fair in love and the WZ Tourney.

A better argument is that Lesnar hoists Liger onto his shoulders and, showing incredible power, hits a triple power bomb, as he's been known to do.

He'd have to catch him and wear him down first, it's not as easy as it sounds.

Uncle Sam
05-25-2009, 04:43 PM
No, I'm just suggesting that Lesnar doesn't automatically win every match because he is the most talented.

Then why does he automatically win every match? His superior power? His unsettling sadism? His incredible good looks?

This isn't a Hell in a Cell match against the Undertaker.

No, it's not. I was using as an example to show that Lesnar has faced experienced legends on an uneven footing and still come out with convincing wins. Against Liger, on an even footing... you see where I'm going with this.

Lesnar doesn't strike me as a studier. I don't think he'd have the patience to watch too many of Liger's matches.


Liger doesn't strike me as a studier either. The dude comes out dressed like a rainbow. Besides, wrestlers rarely adapt their match strategies, no matter who they're facing. If Liger's been watching up on some of the guys he's lost to, he's forgotten to go over his notes.

He'd have to catch him and wear him down first, it's not as easy as it sounds.

Well, it's not as hard as it sounds either, unless Liger is planning on directly legging it away from Lesnar as soon as the match begins. Even then...

gd
05-25-2009, 04:52 PM
Then why does he automatically win every match? His superior power? His unsettling sadism? His incredible good looks?

They may help him win most matches, but his overconfidnce and inexperience may cost him a few.


No, it's not. I was using as an example to show that Lesnar has faced experienced legends on an uneven footing and still come out with convincing wins. Against Liger, on an even footing... you see where I'm going with this.

Yes, and it's a valid point. However, I think that Jushin Liger is completely differnt than the Undertaker.


Liger doesn't strike me as a studier either. The dude comes out dressed like a rainbow. Besides, wrestlers rarely adapt their match strategies, no matter who they're facing. If Liger's been watching up on some of the guys he's lost to, he's forgotten to go over his notes.

I don't think he'd adapt his whole strategy, but he may be able to pick up on a few little things of Lesnar's that he can capitilize on.


Well, it's not as hard as it sounds either, unless Liger is planning on directly legging it away from Lesnar as soon as the match begins. Even then...

I know that Lesnar is certainly capable of hitting Liger with a powerbomb, but Liger is just as capable of rolling up and eager Lesnar or hitting a Liger Bomb.

Uncle Sam
05-25-2009, 05:04 PM
They may help him win most matches, but his overconfidnce and inexperience may cost him a few.

Didn't cost him many in the WWE. Or NJPW. The only one I can think of is Frank Mir, and I'm not really sure if that counts.

Yes, and it's a valid point. However, I think that Jushin Liger is completely differnt than the Undertaker.

So many things I could say here:
1) Yeah, Taker's better - Blunt, rude, yet kinda true.
2) Yeah, Taker's lost to fewer jobbers - still blunt, still true.
3) Yeah, Liger doesn't have a gimmick on his side - less blunt, still true.

I'll go for number three.

I know that Lesnar is certainly capable of hitting Liger with a powerbomb, but Liger is just as capable of rolling up and eager Lesnar or hitting a Liger Bomb.

Lesnar is a six foot, three inch, 265 pound monster that's matched Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit hold for hold. I reckon that Liger, with a lot of difficulty, could hit a Liger bomb, but I don't see the opportunity arising. If it did, people have kicked out of it before. And a roll up isn't going to worry him nearly as much as it would most big men.

Who's to say that Lesnar wouldn't roll Liger up? He's got leverage, weight and power on his side, after all. Though I'm making it seem a lot more even than I honestly believe it would be.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-25-2009, 05:14 PM
How about his shotei (palm heel thrusts)? How about his kicks? Oh, right, I forgot, he's smaller than Brock Lesnar, so obviously those can't do any damage to him. I'm about twice the size of Floyd Mayweather, Jr. I guess that means I can go in the ring with him, huh? :rolleyes:

I was typing up a reply to this post, but I accidentally exited out of it. I'll try again.

Brock Lesnar can take chair shots, superkicks, and 175 pound men falling onto him from ten feet in the air and not blink an eye. I've seen Liger's palm thrust and I was impressed. The guy that Liger hit sold the heck out of it. Lesnar has a tendency to no-sell things. That isn't unprofessional; it's just the way he is. Brock Lesnar is tough. He doesn't stay down for things like palm thrusts.

As for kicks, RVD is a black-belt martial artist. His kicks are much more devastating than Liger's. I'm not going to discount Liger in any way, but he can't kick like a Rob Van Dam.

As for the Floyd Mayweather comparison, I was going to say that you're not a trained fighter.

Nice try trying to act as if there are only two options. How about going into the ring and waiting for the ten count? Or, just standing back parallel to the ring so that you can get a good look on both sides of you? These would be smart strategies, but none that Brock Lesnar would employ, because maiming and going on the offensive are the only things he knows. Furthermore, why the hell would you ever want to consult with someone who bankrupted a veritable cash cow?

Regardless of what he did, there was no consequence for his actions. Lesnar still, even though caught off guard, recovered and turned Mysterio into a baseball bat.

This is laughable, man. Have you not read any of the posts that I have made for Liger throughout this Tournament? Feigning ignorance here straight-up doesn't work, as both LigerBomb and I have already discussed Liger's strategies. But, here, I'll mention two of them for you right now:

Feigning ignorance does work. It makes you spend time re-posting the information, and if you don't, then there will be voters who will not see that information and vote Lesnar. Though, they should vote Lesnar anyway.

Here's his match with Samoa Joe at Bound For Glory (23 October 2005):

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Check out what happens between 3:00 and 3:31. Obviously, Samoa Joe is a hell of a lot stronger than Jushin Liger, and it shows in this series of shoulder blocks that they do here. But, what does Liger do? He lulls Joe into a false sense of security, as I already mentioned, and asks Joe to go to the ropes to initiate a shoulder block. Joe, thinking that it's going to be easy for him, gladly honors Liger's request. But, what happens? Liger ducks the block and takes Joe down with a toehold trip his next time around. So, from this, we know that Liger is more than capable of getting big men on the mat.

If you can make assumptions that Liger won't do this and Liger won't do that, then I can tell you that Lesnar won't be so kind as Samoa Joe. When Liger is yelling at Lesnar, Lesnar will punch him in the mouth. Of course, who's to say it gets to that point? I say that Lesnar doesn't bother with a shoulder block in the first place. I say that Lesnar catches Liger and suplexes him half-way across the ring.

But, for the sake of argument, say Liger trips Lesnar and gets him down. Lesnar is a former NCAA champion in wrestling, so he is very, very capable of wrestling on the mat. Before you say that we can't use his college background as an argument, I remember the announcers, on more than one occasion, bringing up his amateur career at the University of Minnesota. Liger cannot compete with Lesnar on the ground. He mat be well versed in mat wrestling, but Lesnar is stronger, larger, and more experienced on the ground.

Here's a match he had Keiji Mutoh sometime earlier this decade (if anyone can give me the exact date, I'd appreciate it):

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Liger begins to work Mutoh's left leg all throughout this match at 5:06. How did Liger find the opening to work on Mutoh's leg? By lulling him into a false sense of security by pretending that he wanted to get into a battle of strength with him (although, oddly enough, Liger is probably just as strong as Mutoh, although Japanese booking would have you believe otherwise). Furthermore, look at the moonsault Liger does at 12:25. That's not poor aim; rather, that's a man dedicated to his strategy of taking out Mutoh's left leg. He would be just as tenacious with Lesnar.

That's a good argument. I won't pretend that Lesnar isn't susceptible to getting his leg, or arm, or shoulder worked over. Every wrestler is, including Brock Lesnar and Jushin Liger.

So, there you go. I've given you some proof. So, why don't you start talking about your man Lesnar, instead of talking shit about a wrestler you obviously know nothing about? Because, I can tell you right now, you aren't doing any favors for him with this talk about how he'll just pummel Liger into the mat.

What more is there to say about Brock Lesnar? He's strong as an ox, quick as a cat, clever as a fox, and tough as steel and as dangerous as Al Capone with an AK-47.

What the hell are you talking about here? The only thing that's going to remain constant with Liger is his ability to keep his cool in matches; he'll always switch things up, and tailor his strategies to the weaknesses of his opponents. I fail to see how this cancels out his ability to be more motivated to win.

I took what you were saying in the wrong way. I apologize. I understand that Liger may have this huge desire to win, but heart only gets you so far. Matt Hardy had a never say die attitude but he never got past the mid-card with that.

All this match does is prove that low kicks are quite effective in neutralizing Brock Lesnar. This was actually quite a good strategy on Van Dam's part.

Again, these low kicks are from a martial artist. Liger is no such thing. I have no doubt in my mind that he is capable of kicking Lesnar in the leg, but it won't have the same effect.

What lost Van Dam the match? Well, at 3:04, he tries to jump on top of Lesnar's shoulders in one of the corners. Why the hell would you ever do that? Liger would be smart enough not to do something like that. He'd keep to the ground and only go to the ropes when Lesnar was down. You could make the argument that Lesnar would get up and take Liger off of the top rope, but I think Liger would be too fast in the execution of any rope work for Lesnar to be able to get up and be alert by the time Liger flies down upon him.

You talk as though Liger never makes a mistake in the ring, as though he is so much smarter than all his opponents, and that he is perfect in the execution of everything he does. Everyone makes mistakes in the ring, some more than others. The slightest mistake could be detrimental to Liger.

Things actually pick up for Van Dam again at the end, but, he worries too much about Paul Heyman on the outside and he decides to jump off the ropes onto a standing Lesnar, which is another big no-no. As I already stated, Liger wouldn't be dumb (or prideful) enough to get into a position where Lesnar could either catch-slam or catch-suplex him.

Paul Heyman was in Brock Lesnar's corner for much of his career. Heyman is also the head of E.C.W. He can do whatever he wants to help out Brock Lesnar here. If, and I mean if, Brock Lesnar were in trouble, Heyman can pull the leg of the referee, hit Liger with a chair, begin refereeing himself, or do whatever really.

I don't want to use that argument, though. I believe that Lesnar can defeat Liger without any interference or help.

If anything, it seems that Van Dam lost this match for himself. Had he stuck to striking, he probably would have beaten Lesnar.

When has Rob Van Dam ever won a match by striking? He goes up top to finish off opponents. Whenever he tried that, Lesnar punished him for it.

I have a reason that Liger can win, and it has nothing to do with shitting on the business, John Cena, or anything like that.

Two things I see going against Lesnar in this match, inexperience and overconfidence.

Inexperience didn't stop him from defeating Rob Van Dam, Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker, John Cena, The Rock, Kurt Angle, The Big Show, and Jeff Hardy. Brock Lesnar is not inexperienced. Just becuase Liger has had a 20 year career does not mean he has this huge experience advantage over Lesnar. Brock Lesnar has faced and defeated the best wrestlers the W.W.E. has had to offer this decade.

Overconfidence may affect him some in this match, but if it does, I am confident that Lesnar can recover, if it were to hurt him in the match at all.

Like he has probably done for this whole tournament, Lesnar will go into this match assuming victory before it starts. Liger isn't an imposing figure to look at and Lesnar will think that he can destroy him just like he did Jeff Hardy, Elix Skipper and others. There is a problem though, Liger is a hell of a lot better than those guys.

Jeff Hardy is a former WWE heavyweight champion. Liger has never been a heavyweight champion in any promotion. He's been a large-ish fish in the cruiserweight pond. Then again, maybe he isn't that big a fish. He's lost to the likes of Brian Pillman and Juventud Guerrera.

The fact that Lesnar only wrestled for 2 years compared to Liger who wrestled 10 times as long is also a factor. Liger has seen almost every situation possible in his matches and has faced a wider variety of more diverse opponents than Lesnar.

But Lesnar has defeated better opponents than Jushin Liger and better than Jushin Liger has beaten. Brock Lesnar has been in Hell in a Cell, Ironman, Stretcher, Handicap, No DQ, Battle Royal, Triple Threat, and Biker Chain matches. He's defeated opponents of all shapes, sizes, styles, and colors. Brock Lesnar has seem plenty.

What is this all leading to in the end? Something that Liger could use to keep Lesnar down for 3 seconds, a roll up. Brock is sure to get cocky after throwing Liger around the ring for a little bit, and one false move could lead to a quick school boy and a win for Liger.

Show me one example of Brock Lesnar losing by roll-up.

Even if Liger is tired, the roll up will win it.

See: Above.

Jeff Hardy is comparable in size to Liger, but not speed. Liger is way faster than Jeff Hardy. I think a lot of people overestimate Hardy's speed, just because he jumps off of stuff doesn't make him fast. For a crusierweight, Jeff is actually kind of slow. Liger is way faster.

Even so, it shows that Lesnar can dominate someone the size of Liger. It's been said that he's had trouble with Light-Heavyweights. I beg to differ. The only match he lost to a Light-Heavyweight was due to a spear by Goldberg.

Wait...Liger is tired because he beat Batista and Shawn Michaels, but Lesnar isn't tired when beating a "top class competitor" and a former World Champion?

Magnum TA was a good wrestler. He had the talent and the look to be a world champion. Unfortunately, he was injured in a car accident that ended his career before he could get into the main event. Jeff Hardy is a good wrestler, but he wouldn't give Lesnar too much of a challenge. I'm just saying that Lesnar won't be unprepared.

Mark Henry was a lot stronger than the Undertaker, but that didn't stop Taker from winning at Wrestlemania.

Mark Henry is shit.

Lesnar has never been able to do this in any match, why would he suddenly be able to now?

What do you mean? He certainly stopped Rey Mysterio from executing his aerial moves. When Mysterio jumped off of something, Lesnar caught him and threw him.

You should vote for Liger. Most people here vote for Lesnar because Liger is from Japan, and because they are brainwashed into thinking that because Lesnar does well in UFC, he could beat one of the greatest wrestlers in the history of the business.

:lmao: Most people vote for Liger because he is from Japan. Most people that vote against people like The Rock and Brock Lesnar is because they left the business and you're spiteful.

Don't be like them. Vote for quality over inexperience.

Brock Lesnar was the better professional wrestler. Vote Lesnar.

PYT-

1) Mark Henry isn't a jobber. He has main evented ppv's, he is a legit force as "The World's Strongest Man". I will give you that he is in no way even close to being as good as Lesnar, but your argument is once again flawed.

:lmao: He hasn't ever been in the main event of a Pay Per View. He's been in the third match for the E.C.W. championship, but if you consider that the main event, then I shouldn't even bother to reply to this.

2) You completely missed the point of the "overconfident" post. Of course he wouldn't be trying to wrestle an aerial match. There is a long history in pro wrestling of big men who don't come out hard against smaller men. Even Brock, in his match against Eddie, wasn't overly dominant compared to his matches with larger, stronger opponents.

He was well on his way to winning that match, though, until Goldberg stuck his large nose into Brock Lesnar's business.

3) No, you cannot take his amateur background into account. If amateur skills had any relevance to the success of a pro wrestler, Charlie Haas would be a main eventer rather than an afterthought.

See: Kurt Angle.

4) I would say the Lesnar arguments are horrible. There have been few attempts to convince people that Lesnar is that good, it has just been counter attacks on why Liger isn't that good.

For a while, it was anti-Lesnar, not pro-Liger. The arguments that Liger should win because Lesnar left the company and flipped off the fans were horrible.

5) Calling someone a sheep because you haven't done a good job convincing them of your opinion is poor form.

He was convinced by a terrible argument.

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I dont know, did this video come up?

Anyway, this is RVD beating Brock Lesnar clean, during Brock Lesnars huge KOTR winning, Rock/Undertaker beating, Royal Rumble winning push, even Heyman knows he's beat, which is why he pulls the ref out of the ring. Then later on the only thing that stops Lesnar's face from becoming even more ugly is once again, Paul Heyman.

Basically, Lesnar is and always has been susceptable to talented smaller, quick guys, RVD had this match won despite making stupid mistakes throughout the entire thing. Jushin Liger doesnt make stupid mistakes and possesses the high-flying and striking skills of RVD, as well as a great technical game.

Still not sure which way to go, but I think it's an interesting case for Liger.

Did Lesnar lose that match? I don't know, as I can't see the video. I would spend more time on this post, but my laptop is dying and I want to address LigerBomb.

Why I will personally be voting Jushin Thunder Liger:

I didn't expect different.


Kayfabe-wise I honestly believe Liger has a complete and unique enough set of tools to beat Brock Lesnar. I'm not naive enough to think he would/could beat him every time, but enough times that I feel my vote is justified.
Along these lines I think the Hardcore environment definitely favors Liger as he has great experience in these matches and when working his Black Liger heel gimmick or his Kishin gimmick is more brutal, unforgiving, and takes it to the level he would need to to beat the green monster Brock Lesnar.
Non-Kayfabe I respect what Jushin Liger has done for the business a lot more than what Lesnar has(n't) done for it.
He's my favorite foreign/Japanese pro-wrestler and has been for more than fifteen years.
Fan wise I have been vastly more entertained as a pro-wrestling fan by the Liger matches I've seen than the Lesnar matches I've seen. The few times I did enjoy Lesnar matches it's because he was being carried by the guy in the opposite corner. And yes I'm one of the "smarky" New Yorkers who boo'd and taunted both Goldberg and Lesnar live at Wrestlemania 20, and it was some of the most fun I've ever had at a wrestling show.


See, we're already disagreeing. I don't think that Liger has the tools to beat Lesnar.
Brock Lesnar, too, has experience. He's competed in Stretcher matches and in Hell in a Cell. I listed more above. Then again, I don't see why experience in hardcore matches matter. It's not hard to pick up a chair and swing it. I say that Brock Lesnar has the advantage in the hardcore department. He can take chair shots and keep on rolling.
Non-kayfabe, I respect Lesnar for following his dream. He had the world handed to him in WWE, but he didn't love the business. I applaud him for taking a chance to do what he's always dreamed of doing. You can't hold that against him.
Brock Lesnar is my favorite wrestler and has been since 2003.
I never had the opportunity to see Lesnar live. I went to my first live show in 2005. But, whatever. That doesn't matter. His match with Goldberg is what I remember most from my first WrestleMania. I cried when he left... Hey! I was like, 11.

If this is to determine the best Pro Wrestler ever I'm giving my vote to the one who has done more for the business, is the better worker, personally entertained me more; who I've spent money/time on seeing live by driving to other states for, who I've bought numerous tapes and later DVDs of; and not the guy who bored me to tears, perpetually made me want to change the channel, and keep my wallet closed.


I can't say anything here. That's how you choose to vote and it's fine by me. I tend to vote kayfabe, although I've made a few exceptions for my favorite wrestlers thus far. In this case, my favorite wrestler would win in a match.

If I were to vote with my heart, I'd vote Brock. I like Lesnar better, I've spent money on his shirts and I even bought a UFC PPV to watch him. He's entertained me more. I'm opposite of you. Liger is the one that I'm not entertained me. I haven't gone out of my way to see the guy and I haven't spent money on him. He doesn't do anything for me.

Vote Lesnar.

gd
05-25-2009, 05:20 PM
Didn't cost him many in the WWE. Or NJPW.

Yes, but it still is a disadvantage for him in this match.

The only one I can think of is Frank Mir, and I'm not really sure if that counts.

No, that doesn't count.



1) Yeah, Taker's better - Blunt, rude, yet kinda true.

Overall Taker may be better, but Liger is much different. Taker went into the match tryin to overpower Lesanr, something that Liger won't do.

2) Yeah, Taker's lost to fewer jobbers - still blunt, still true.

Like take, Liger has also beaten some of the best wrestlers in the world.

3) Yeah, Liger doesn't have a gimmick on his side - less blunt, still true.

Actually, the gimmick may favor Liger as he has been very effective with weapons.


Lesnar is a six foot, three inch, 265 pound monster that's matched Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit hold for hold. I reckon that Liger, with a lot of difficulty, could hit a Liger bomb, but I don't see the opportunity arising. If it did, people have kicked out of it before.

If Liger hits the Liger Bomb, it wouldn't be until after he had worn Lesnar down a significant amount, making a 3 count much more likely.

And a roll up isn't going to worry him nearly as much as it would most big men

The roll up is most effective when the opponent isn't looking for it.

Who's to say that Lesnar wouldn't roll Liger up? He's got leverage, weight and power on his side, after all. Though I'm making it seem a lot more even than I honestly believe it would be.

Lesnar would never go for a roll up on Liger because of his ego. He would want to overpower Liger, not make himself look weak by rolling up a smaller man.

justinsayne
05-25-2009, 05:52 PM
Yes, but he has also lost to some of these guys, as well as Eddie Guerrero. I truly believe that Liger is as good as or better all of these guys and would have a very good chance of beating Lesnar.

Lesanr was dominating that match up until Goldberg Speared Lesnar, I highly doubt Goldberg is sitting at ringside for this match too, if he were than maybe this argument would be relevant

No, but that's what he has been doing for the last 3 weeks of this tournament, and I believe that he will be rusty and off of his game. I also think that while he may have faced those big names, Liger has faced even more big names many times in his career. I think that his experience definetly gives him an edge.

Please show me where Lesnar has ever gone into a match witha smaller guy and lost because he was rusty from squashing jobbers:rolleyes:

Lesnar knows that he has all of the tools to go into the match and beat Liger. I think he will be overconfident and that will hurt him. Much like the Lesnar supporters, who've admitted they've "half-assed" the matches so far, I believe Brock has done so too. He will certainly think that he can do the same thing facing someone like Liger.

While you're looking for the match Lesnar lost due to being rusty from a recent jobber squashing, perhaps you can also find one were he loses due to being overconfident, and the match with Eddie doesn't count, cause as has been pointed god knows how many fucking times by now, he only lost that match due to Goldbergs interference

No, he won't.

Yes, he will

Because I think that Liger is an infinitely better and more experienced wrestler than any of the people who Lesnar has faced thus far in the tournament, and he would be smart enough to realize that a roll up would be his best chance of defeated a cocky Lesnar.

Gonna be hard to get that quick roll up when Lesnar is pounding the shit out of him though, also it's not like Lesnar doesn't have to power to kick out of any kind of roll up that Liger would get him in

Lesnar wins this, I still have yet to see one single argument that would legitimately suggest otherwise

Cena's Little Helper
05-25-2009, 06:03 PM
You are.

I've already had two of Lesnar's biggest fans on this board come in and say that I have put forward plausible arguments. Am I going to sway them? Hell no. But, have I made them see that arguments for Liger winning this match can be made? Yes.

So, please, explain yourself. There's nothing on this site that you have posted that makes me think that I should take your word as bond.

What's a horse laugh?

Appeal to ridicule, also called the Horse Laugh, is a logical fallacy which presents the opponent's argument in a way that appears ridiculous, often to the extent of creating a straw man of the actual argument. For example:

* If Einstein's theory of relativity is right, that would mean that when I drive my car it gets shorter and heavier the faster I go. That's crazy! (This is, in fact, true, but the effect is so minuscule a human observer will not notice.)

* If the theory of evolution were true, that would mean that your great great great grandfather was a gorilla! (False, since the theory states that humans and gorillas evolved from a common early ancestor and clearly states evolution took many more than 5 generations.)

This is a rhetorical tactic which mocks an opponent's argument, attempting to inspire an emotional reaction (making it a type of appeal to emotion) in the audience and to highlight the counter-intuitive aspects of that argument, making it appear foolish and contrary to common sense. This is typically done by demonstrating the argument's logic in an extremely absurd way or by presenting the argument in an overly simplified way, and often involves an appeal to consequences.

I'm seriously contemplating whether I should add "90% of Uncle Sam's Arguments on The WrestleZone Forums" as a third example.

So you just ignored the part where I said about how you can show where Lesnar had moderate difficulty against smaller men but Liger has often lost to bottom of the barrel wrestlers in the States? I would've repeated the information about Lesnar being stronger, faster and, indeed, capable of smothering Liger, but I thought that it was getting used and then ignored too often.

No, I didn't ignore it all. It's something that I've already answered in a previous thread. But, I guess that I'll have to answer it again here. Yes, Liger has lost to what you refer to as "bottom of the barrel wrestlers" in the States. But, show me someone that he didn't either beat in return or initially. Almost every time, Liger beats his opponents in their initial match-up. Why should I think things should be any different here? I've already outlined how Liger would go about in a match with Lesnar and I've already discussed his motivation.

Well, no. Not really. You wouldn't have, would you?

Point was, when has RVD ever defeated anyone using only strikes? He may well have a couple of times in some obscure ECW matches, but he certainly hadn't in his WWE career, and couldn't have defeated Lesnar that way. Hence why he climbed the top rope, because going there was the only way he ever earned a victory.

Have no clue what you're saying with your first three sentences. And, actually, RVD wouldn't have needed to go to the top rope to beat Lesnar. As I already stated before, he was doing fine by just using strikes. Why should a smart, patient, and strategic wrestler like Liger go to the ropes like RVD? Because the WWE dictates that it be so? We're not in WWE...we're in ECW, where RVD might have had some of those "obscure matches" that you refer to.

Nothing in this Tournament says that matches have to be short and to the point. I know for a fact that Liger would never be able to beat Lesnar in a short match, as he wouldn't be able to dispose of him so easily without taking dangerous risks. If anything, this would be a long, drawn-out match, with a very wary Liger taking extreme precautions.

'Tis.

And, as I said before, you have posted nothing on this site that makes me think your word is bond.

Did you? I remember waiting for a response for what was maybe a day, then not bothering to check back after that. I certainly don't remember that post.

What, so there are deadlines here at WZ? It's not like I posted my response after an unreasonable length of time. You asked to give my reasons, and I did. You not checking back is on you, not me. My post is there, and refutes any points that you may have had quite well, at least in my opinion.

Most the time I post I get a response from you like "Oh my God, look who's being sarcastic again." You the stretch it for several paragraphs. There was that one time where I wasn't even sarcastic. I double checked. You had been though.

You mean this post?


Uh oh, the sarcastic breakdown post is back! What do you actually know about Muta? All I see here is that you've essentially done nothing but try to make someone look like a fool by manipulating their post. How exactly does this prove that Joe is better than Muta?

Any possible argument for Joe that has been made so far has been refuted with an even stronger argument in favor of Muta. So, please, come in here with an argument that has at least a little bit of substance so that we can dismiss it.

Yeah, guilty as charged on this one. I don't know I if I've used the "sarcasm" card more than once on you, but, if I have, that still wouldn't mean that that's what most of my responses to you consist of. Why don't you go ahead and take a look at the post I responded to? If that wasn't sarcastic, then there's clearly something wrong with my head.

hyourinmaru
05-25-2009, 08:53 PM
You guys are acting like Liger has never wrestled people Brock's size before. I hate to burst your bubble but he has. He spent a good portion of the year 2000 wrestling just Heavyweights due to New Japan not putting the spotlight in the Jr heavyweights for a while. He has wrestled people Brock's size in the past and he has beat them. This match would be no different and due to his experience Liger would win.

Vote Liger

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-25-2009, 08:58 PM
You guys are acting like Liger has never wrestled people Brock's size before. I hate to burst your bubble but he has. He spent a good portion of the year 2000 wrestling just Heavyweights due to New Japan not putting the spotlight in the Jr heavyweights for a while. He has wrestled people Brock's size in the past and he has beat them. This match would be no different and due to his experience Liger would win.

Vote Liger

Firstly, tell me who these people that Liger has faced and beaten are, then I will tell you why they aren't near Lesnar's quality. Jushin Liger is good, but Lesnar is a beast of a man. Brock Lesnar is a better mat wrestler, a stronger wrestler, a tougher wrestler, and, dare I say, a smarter wrestler. Brock graduated from one of America's prestigious universities. Did Jushin Liger go to college? Who knows. Actually, that's a silly argument. I'm not going to bank on that one. But the fact of the matter is, Brock Lesnar is better than Jushin Liger in every single physical category, save for speed, but he hardly gives up anything there. Brock Lesnar is the perfect wrestler.

Edit: I missed where you said that Liger's experience would win him the match. Hulk Hogan had plenty of experience when he faced a Brock Lesnar that was only a few months into his career but the result was the same as all of Brock Lesnar's other matches up to that point. It ended with Hulk Hogan knocked out on the canvas and Lesnar standing tall. This would be no different.

Slyfox696
05-25-2009, 09:05 PM
Firstly, tell me who these people that Liger has faced and beaten are, then I will tell you why they aren't near Lesnar's quality. You seem to think that Lesnar was actually good. That's where you keep making your mistake.

Edit: I missed where you said that Liger's experience would win him the match. Hulk Hogan had plenty of experience when he faced a Brock Lesnar that was only a few months into his career but the result was the sameYou mean when Hulk Hogan was 51 years old?

Yeah, great point. :rolleyes:

We're talking about Liger in his prime here. There's no way you can compare a 51 year old in the twilight of his career to Jushin Liger in his prime, even if it is Hulk Hogan.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-25-2009, 09:08 PM
You mean when Hulk Hogan was 51 years old?

Yeah, great point. :rolleyes:

We're talking about Liger in his prime here. There's no way you can compare a 51 year old in the twilight of his career to Jushin Liger in his prime, even if it is Hulk Hogan.

Well then, what about The Rock? The Rock was 30 years old in August, 2002 when Brock Lesnar left him bloodied and beaten. The Rock had been in countless matches and had faced everyone the company had to offer. A green Brock Lesnar destroyed him.

Besides, it was a better Hogan than the one that defeated Shawn Michaels a few years later and it was a Hulk Hogan who had just defeated Triple H, clean, for the Undisputed Championship.

Slyfox696
05-25-2009, 09:10 PM
Well then, what about The Rock? The Rock was 30 years old in August, 2002 when Brock Lesnar left him bloodied and beaten. The Rock had been in countless matches and had faced everyone the company had to offer. A green Brock Lesnar destroyed him.So what? Rock was getting ready to leave, so of course the WWE had Rock lay down for him.

But, that's not happening here. Liger's not going to lay down for Lesnar like Rock did, he's going to go in there, beat him with his speed, skill and experience. Oh, and the fact he's just infinitely better in the ring.

Shock
05-25-2009, 09:13 PM
Liger shouldn't even have gotten this far, and his road definately stops here. This should be the easiest match to vote on in this round.

Becca, you know I love you, but stop hating on Liger because he beat HBK. I love HBK too. This is nowhere easy to vote on, and I'll have to disagree. Liger in his prime was certainly impressive enough to defeat Lesnar. People here seem to think that if someone can't dominate someone else, they can't win either. Sure, Liger wouldn't dominate. Far from it. But Jushin Liger would sure be good enough to beat Lesnar. You can count on it.

Vote Liger.

hyourinmaru
05-25-2009, 09:14 PM
Edit: I missed where you said that Liger's experience would win him the match. Hulk Hogan had plenty of experience when he faced a Brock Lesnar that was only a few months into his career but the result was the same as all of Brock Lesnar's other matches up to that point. It ended with Hulk Hogan knocked out on the canvas and Lesnar standing tall. This would be no different.
I could have beaten Hogan in that match. Liger in his prime could beat Brock. Brock was only pushed because he had the look Vince loses his Shit over. He really wasn't that good. All Liger would have to do is watch some previous Lesnar matches and know what Brock would do and then he would come up with ways to block it and win.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-25-2009, 09:15 PM
So what? Rock was getting ready to leave, so of course the WWE had Rock lay down for him.

But, that's not happening here. Liger's not going to lay down for Lesnar like Rock did, he's going to go in there, beat him with his speed, skill and experience. Oh, and the fact he's just infinitely better in the ring.

The Rock actually stayed around for another eight months. We don't know that it was even decided that Rocky would be pursuing a different career yet.

Brock Lesnar faced The Rock. Regardless of his contract situation, it was still The Rock and The Rock did not lay down for him. Brock Lesnar just beat him. Like I've said before, Lesnar hardly gives anything up in speed and his inexperience didn't do a thing in his matches with Hogan, Rocky, and The Undertaker. Liger is infinitely better in the ring? Sure, he can do a better Shooting Star Press, but if he really was better in the ring, Liger wouldn't lose to the likes of Brian Pillman and Juventud in his prime.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-25-2009, 09:20 PM
Becca, you know I love you, but stop hating on Liger because he beat HBK. I love HBK too. This is nowhere easy to vote on, and I'll have to disagree. Liger in his prime was certainly impressive enough to defeat Lesnar. People here seem to think that if someone can't dominate someone else, they can't win either. Sure, Liger wouldn't dominate. Far from it. But Jushin Liger would sure be good enough to beat Lesnar. You can count on it.

Vote Liger.

Yet you, like most other Liger supporters, simply say that Liger is good and Brock is overrated. That is a terrible argument. Brock Lesnar is physically superior to Jushin Liger in every way. He's beaten higher quality opponents and lost far less frequently. This shouldn't even be close.

I could have beaten Hogan in that match. Liger in his prime could beat Brock. Brock was only pushed because he had the look Vince loses his Shit over. He really wasn't that good. All Liger would have to do is watch some previous Lesnar matches and know what Brock would do and then he would come up with ways to block it and win.

Hulk Hogan could still kick your ass.

Why does it matter why Brock was pushed? All that matters is that he was. It doesn't matter if Lesnar was boring in the ring or whatever. No matter what he looks like in the ring, he won his matches and he won them convincingly.

You act as if Lesnar can't scout Liger? Lesnar has a lot more tape to watch of Liger than Liger does of Lesnar. And if Liger were able to figure out Lesnar's strategy, it wouldn't matter. You cannot block brute force.

justinsayne
05-25-2009, 09:28 PM
The experience argument doesn't really work here, pretty much every single guy Lesnar has faced has had years more experience than him, Hogan had like 20 years experience, Brock beat him, Taker had 12 years experience, Brock beat him, Angle had 5 years experience, Brock beat him, I could go one with guys like Rock, Benoit, Big Show Flair, RVD, Mysterio, and others, all of them had well over a decade of experience and Brock beat every damn one of them

Slyfox696
05-25-2009, 09:28 PM
Yet you, like most other Liger supporters, simply say that Liger is good and Brock is overrated. That is a terrible argument.Proving that Liger is a far superior wrestler is a terrible argument? I hope all Brock supporters aren't like you...at least give the guy a chance.

Brock Lesnar is physically superior to Jushin Liger in every way. And Sean Stasiak is superior to Shawn Michaels in every way. Would you want to place your money on Stasiak over Michaels?

Why does it matter why Brock was pushed?Because your argument is terrible, and the only, and I mean ONLY, thing you can argue is that Brock was chosen by the WWE to win matches. When your only argument is that someone else decided he should win, then it certainly matters why he was pushed.

It doesn't matter if Lesnar was boring in the ring or whatever. No matter what he looks like in the ring, he won his matches and he won them convincingly. Yes, it does matter.

Not everyone is as narrow minded as you are in this thing. This isn't a "kayfabe only" tournament, we are also including overall ability and skill, and Liger is so far superior to Lesnar it's not even funny.

You cannot block brute force.And there's no substitute for experience.

I can throw around cliches as well.

hyourinmaru
05-25-2009, 09:29 PM
You cannot block brute force.
Wrestlers who use Brute Force against smaller opponents make stupid mistakes and lose the match. Brock would get cocky because he was facing a smaller guy and think he can push him around and win the match whenever he wanted to. He would make a mistake the Liger would then capitalize on and win the match

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-25-2009, 09:33 PM
Wrestlers who use Brute Force against smaller opponents make stupid mistakes and lose the match. Brock would get cocky because he was facing a smaller guy and think he can push him around and win the match whenever he wanted to. He would make a mistake the Liger would then capitalize on and win the match

You're basing your whole argument on chance. Brock Lesnar might get cocky and if he does then he might make a mistake that Liger could be able to capitalize on and it might hurt Lesnar in the match. Have you thought about what happens if Liger makes a mistake? You may say that Liger rarely makes mistakes. I'll turn that one around on you. You guys seem to think that Brock Lesnar is this stupid guy that makes mistakes all the time and takes his opponents lightly. Please, I beg of you, give me an example. It does not happen often.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-25-2009, 09:35 PM
Proving that Liger is a far superior wrestler is a terrible argument? I hope all Brock supporters aren't like you...at least give the guy a chance.

I have said multiple times in this thread that Jushin Liger is a good wrestler.

And Sean Stasiak is superior to Shawn Michaels in every way. Would you want to place your money on Stasiak over Michaels?

Maybe in a brawl.

Because your argument is terrible, and the only, and I mean ONLY, thing you can argue is that Brock was chosen by the WWE to win matches. When your only argument is that someone else decided he should win, then it certainly matters why he was pushed.

Jushin Liger was chosen to win matches in NJPW. It's no different.

Yes, it does matter.

Not everyone is as narrow minded as you are in this thing. This isn't a "kayfabe only" tournament, we are also including overall ability and skill, and Liger is so far superior to Lesnar it's not even funny.

What is the point of the hometowns, gimmicks, and such, then?

And there's no substitute for experience.

I can throw around cliches as well.

Brock Lesnar has experience beating some of the biggest names in the industry, far bigger names than those Liger has beaten. You're acting as though Brock Lesnar has never set foot in a ring.

hyourinmaru
05-25-2009, 09:41 PM
You're basing your whole argument on chance. Brock Lesnar might get cocky and if he does then he might make a mistake that Liger could be able to capitalize on and it might hurt Lesnar in the match. Have you thought about what happens if Liger makes a mistake? You may say that Liger rarely makes mistakes. I'll turn that one around on you. You guys seem to think that Brock Lesnar is this stupid guy that makes mistakes all the time and takes his opponents lightly. Please, I beg of you, give me an example. It does not happen often.
No Brock will get cocky, he does it every time. have you ever seen a Lesnar match? he gets in the ring with a smaller guy than him, he gets cocky because they aren't as big as him and he makes a mistake that costs him.

oFcTApkuIiw

I know this match was already posted but it proves my point. Brock gets cocky and it costs him. The only reason Mysterio didn't win is because they wanted to further the Lesnar Big Show feud they had going.

In closing Mysterio would have won, Liger WILL win
Brock Lesnar has experience beating some of the biggest names in the industry, far bigger names than those Liger has beaten. You're acting as though Brock Lesnar has never set foot in a ring.
Most every Brock Supporter is acting like American wrestling is the end all be all in the industry. Brok has beaten some of the best in the USA. Liger has beaten some of the best in Japan. They're pretty even in this regard.

I'm still voting Liger though

Slyfox696
05-25-2009, 09:52 PM
I have said multiple times in this thread that Jushin Liger is a good wrestler.Well, I'm glad, because I've said many times in this thread that Lesnar is a mediocre.

We're both right.

Maybe in a brawl.Never.

Jushin Liger was chosen to win matches in NJPW. It's no different.I'm not the one basing his ENTIRE argument over who chose a wrestler to win the matches. That's you.

You're acting as though Brock Lesnar has never set foot in a ring.And Brock wrestles like he hasn't. It works out perfectly.

48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You
05-25-2009, 09:56 PM
Most every Brock Supporter is acting like American wrestling is the end all be all in the industry. Brok has beaten some of the best in the USA. Liger has beaten some of the best in Japan. They're pretty even in this regard.

I'm still voting Liger though

I'm eating dinner and I'll respond to the first part of your post afterwards.

To me, America is the be all, end all of professional wrestling. Japanese wrestling is almost entirely different. It's more of a sport to them, where as it's entertainment here. I don't care for Japanese wrestling.

I do realize that Liger has beaten some of the best Japan had to offer, but in his prime, he was restricted to fighting light weights. In Japan, they try to be more realistic. Small guys get squashed by big guys. Small guys aren't even allowed to fight big guys because they cannot compete with them. So, Liger became a big fish in the pond of cruisers, but never cut it in the heavyweight pond. Lesnar immediately became the biggest fish in the pond that Liger never was able to make it in once he went to Japan.

LigerBomb
05-25-2009, 10:03 PM
Brock Lesnar can take chair shots, superkicks, and 175 pound men falling onto him from ten feet in the air and not blink an eye. I've seen Liger's palm thrust and I was impressed. The guy that Liger hit sold the heck out of it. Lesnar has a tendency to no-sell things. That isn't unprofessional; it's just the way he is. Brock Lesnar is tough. He doesn't stay down for things like palm thrusts. Ok first the strike is impressive... not because it's real, or because Liger a strong well versed martial artist executed it well but because the other guy Kayfabe sold it well... Then Lesnar is tough not because he kayfabe no sells but because he just really is tough... It's stuff like this that makes this tourney... difficult. In the very same paragraph if not sentence people are debating the damage strikes did/do/could do, and the punishment wrestlers can/could/did take back and forth in and out of kayfabe simultaneously... Which is it? Brock was booked to no-sell to build his monster character reputation. Either the palm thrust hurts cause it's a powerful strike connecting to a human skull or its a devastating move that gets sold well... either way your argument is it wont hurt Brock because either A. In Kayfabe Land his head is some kind of non-bone alloy thats impervious to applied force hence the no sell... or B cause he just no sells for real cause he's just that tough... with BS ike that he's damn near Superman in and out of the ring real or fake.... Problem is as Sly said eventuall monsters get less monstrous.... Kane, Show, Andre, Umaga, Khali, etc etc etc. You build up a monster to make money on the rise and then get a babyface over and make more money on the monster's fall. Liger is David Lesnar is Goliath especially in ECW where the booking was 180 degrees from normal... I wouldn't fly a guy in from Japan just to have him get squashed by the apparently superhuman, no selling green monster will do.

As for kicks, RVD is a black-belt martial artist. His kicks are much more devastating than Liger's. I'm not going to discount Liger in any way, but he can't kick like a Rob Van Dam. And you know this because you have taken kicks from both men? As a martial artist who has fought black belts as a yellow belt I can say that while I lacked technique and finesse I was powerful enough to kick my opponents out of the ring -or circle as it were- countless times. That said this is to even assume that Liger is a know nothing white belt... The man studied in various dojos all throughout Japan... c'mon now, he knows how to execute a friggin' kick effectively.

If you can make assumptions that Liger won't do this and Liger won't do that, then I can tell you that Lesnar won't be so kind as Samoa Joe. When Liger is yelling at Lesnar, Lesnar will punch him in the mouth. Of course, who's to say it gets to that point? I say that Lesnar doesn't bother with a shoulder block in the first place. I say that Lesnar catches Liger and suplexes him half-way across the ring. Ok lets play... I say Liger comes out as Kishin style, mists Lesnar in the face, kicks him in the nuts -he does have human nuts right? Or do his testicles no sell as well?- get Lesnar on his knees, does a running Shotei thrust, Liger bombs him and gets the 123...

But, for the sake of argument, say Liger trips Lesnar and gets him down. Lesnar is a former NCAA champion in wrestling, so he is very, very capable of wrestling on the mat. Before you say that we can't use his college background as an argument, I remember the announcers, on more than one occasion, bringing up his amateur career at the University of Minnesota. Liger cannot compete with Lesnar on the ground. He mat be well versed in mat wrestling, but Lesnar is stronger, larger, and more experienced on the ground. Power is mainly a product of leverage, when you're both on the ground and/or when your opponent is above you you can be a power output disadvantage. Also lets not forget that Liger also wrestled free style for a number of years and was quite accomplished, in addition he has a long history in martial arts that Lesnar has no experience defending against, it would not be impossible for Liger to get Lesnar down with that drop toe hold and then applie a kimura, heel hook, key lock, choke, etc etc You yourself say " I won't pretend that Lesnar isn't susceptible to getting his leg, or arm, or shoulder worked over. Every wrestler is, including Brock Lesnar and Jushin Liger."

What more is there to say about Brock Lesnar? He's strong as an ox, quick as a cat, clever as a fox, and tough as steel and as dangerous as Al Capone with an AK-47.
...Ok and Liger is the Thunderous God of all Beasts... yay hyperbole

I took what you were saying in the wrong way. I apologize. I understand that Liger may have this huge desire to win, but heart only gets you so far. Matt Hardy had a never say die attitude but he never got past the mid-card with that.
Yea he also isn't nearly the worker Liger is, is held back mostly due to his minimal mic skills and more over brother etc etc... Apples and oranges.

Again, these low kicks are from a martial artist. Liger is no such thing. I have no doubt in my mind that he is capable of kicking Lesnar in the leg, but it won't have the same effect. Why is he not a martial artist? What else do you call a man that has trained in various styles of martial arts in revered dojos all across Japan other than a martial artist?

You talk as though Liger never makes a mistake in the ring, as though he is so much smarter than all his opponents, and that he is perfect in the execution of everything he does. Everyone makes mistakes in the ring, some more than others. The slightest mistake could be detrimental to Liger. And can be equally detrimental to Lesnar unless where adding perfection to his list of Kayfabe superpowers...

Paul Heyman was in Brock Lesnar's corner for much of his career. Heyman is also the head of E.C.W. He can do whatever he wants to help out Brock Lesnar here. If, and I mean if, Brock Lesnar were in trouble, Heyman can pull the leg of the referee, hit Liger with a chair, begin refereeing himself, or do whatever really. Likewise Heyman was the guy who screwed over Brock a bunch too. So he may just want to do it again and give Liger the ol' 123 for pure spite.

Inexperience didn't stop him from defeating Rob Van Dam, Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker, John Cena, The Rock, Kurt Angle, The Big Show, and Jeff Hardy. No we can thank WWE booking for those wins.
Brock Lesnar is not inexperienced. Just becuase Liger has had a 20 year career does not mean he has this huge experience advantage over Lesnar. In what universe does 20 years of doing something successfully not lend itself to experience over doing something marginally well for 2? Oh I forgot, the WWE Universe. Whoops, good thing this match is in ECW. Your statement makes no sense.

Overconfidence may affect him some in this match, but if it does, I am confident that Lesnar can recover, if it were to hurt him in the match at all. glad your confidence in his harmful overconfidence and recovery is strong. I'm confident Liger could use Lesnar's overconfidence to his advantage and get a win.

Even so, it shows that Lesnar can dominate someone the size of Liger. It's been said that he's had trouble with Light-Heavyweights. I beg to differ. The only match he lost to a Light-Heavyweight was due to a spear by Goldberg. Actually that would be true if he lost immediately after the Goldberg spear... in actuality its more accurate to say that he didn't win because of a Goldberg spear -even though the ref was still knocked out long after Lesnar recovered from the spear-, and lost because Eddie reversed an F5 attempt into a Swinging DDT and then landed a Frog Splash to get the 123.

Brock Lesnar was the better professional wrestler. Vote Lesnar.In no way shape or form is that true, whether we're talking drawing power, championships, number of fans, longevity, in ring ability, booking a division, etc etc etc

He was well on his way to winning that match, though, until Goldberg stuck his large nose into Brock Lesnar's business.Actually as I said the ref took a large bump and was out for a long while before and after the Goldberg spear. And also as I said Goldberg's spear didn't beat Lesnar... Guerrero's DDT reversal and frog splash beat Lesnar

For a while, it was anti-Lesnar, not pro-Liger. The arguments that Liger should win because Lesnar left the company and flipped off the fans were horrible.Actually not horrible just not what you like to see. This contest is based on whatever the voters want to base it on. Perhaps some don't want an ingrate and 2 year flash in the pan to not get voted as the best Pro Wrestler of all time -least till next years tourney-, and will make their choices based on something other than "never lose" booking (like match quality and career longevity for example)

Did Lesnar lose that match? I don't know, as I can't see the video. I would spend more time on this post, but my laptop is dying and I want to address LigerBomb.Hooray now we get to speak -somewhat-directly.

I didn't expect different.
why ever respond to that part of my message? It was a such a non issue yet you address it like it was some bold proclamation of stupid loyalty in the face of certain defeat... I was just saying... I'm voting for Liger, and here's why.

See, we're already disagreeing. I don't think that Liger has the tools to beat Lesnar.
Liger has the best of both worlds he has all the strengths of a cruiser weight, yet he is also strong and powerful, has exceptional mat wrestling ability that cruiser weights normally don't, the strikes of a (powerful) martial artist, and non of the slowness and weaknesses of the big slow guys. He's basically the most complete guy you can find
Brock Lesnar, too, has experience. He's competed in Stretcher matches and in Hell in a Cell. I listed more above. Then again, I don't see why experience in hardcore matches matter. It's not hard to pick up a chair and swing it. I say that Brock Lesnar has the advantage in the hardcore department. He can take chair shots and keep on rolling. Yea but does he have experience with barbed wire, knives, forks, and all the other standard things that a Japanese hardcore match has? Wait I guess it doesn't matter cause he can rely on his good ol' power of no selling...
Non-kayfabe, I respect Lesnar for following his dream. He had the world handed to him in WWE, but he didn't love the business. I applaud him for taking a chance to do what he's always dreamed of doing. You can't hold that against him.Actually I could, in fact maybe I'm doing it right now, actually I could give a fuck about his dreams to fail at football, but like Stone Cold I can see he's a flash in the pan and not want him to go over someone who is more worthwhile to the business...
Brock Lesnar is my favorite wrestler and has been since 2003. Bully for you.
I never had the opportunity to see Lesnar live. I went to my first live show in 2005. But, whatever. That doesn't matter. His match with Goldberg is what I remember most from my first WrestleMania. I cried when he left... Hey! I was like, 11.I remember Eddie and Chris celebrating in the ring as champions but to each his own. And yea I would guess only an 11 yr. old could watch Lesnar's stuff and care about it like it mattered. Sorry that was a low blow but too easy to not do. Apologies once again.
I can't say anything here. That's how you choose to vote and it's fine by me. I tend to vote kayfabe, although I've made a few exceptions for my favorite wrestlers thus far. In this case, my favorite wrestler would win in a match.Actually he just may lose.

If I were to vote with my heart, I'd vote Brock. I like Lesnar better, I've spent money on his shirts and I even bought a UFC PPV to watch him. He's entertained me more. I'm opposite of you. Liger is the one that I'm not entertained me. I haven't gone out of my way to see the guy and I haven't spent money on him. He doesn't do anything for me.That's a shame he's one of the legends of the sport.

Vote Lesnar.

Or vote Liger...

Bad News Lariat
05-26-2009, 01:56 AM
Excellent post by LigerBomb, but there's no reason that Lesnar will fall to Liger. Brock Lesnar is a decorated athlete. Sure he didn't wrestle in the WWE too long and he was hyped through the moon, and some say he's a douche for the way he left wrestling. But it's like this. Lesnar is a man who can adapt to any situation. Last time I checked, he is the current UFC Heavyweight Champion. UFC is real fighting. Liger is dangerous. He's a skilled martial artist and can take you down with stiff strikes, but he's more prone to manhandle cruiserweights. Lesnar is nearly 290 lbs. Lesnar is agile, trained at numerous forms of combat, and is capable of beating up someone.

This match is ECW rules, which means weapons can be brought in to play. Another thing that will simply offset itself because both Lesnar and Liger are sadistic enough to use weapons on each other. Liger is a legend, and has experience in wrestling, but Lesnar is a pure athlete who can hang with anyone in any ring. Brock also wrestled in Japan, too. It's not like he can't adapt to Liger's wrestling style. Liger would go over HBK because the size difference isn't too fast. But there's no way Liger can man handle Lesnar and get him in a Liger Bomb.

Brock Lesnar will win this match because Lesnar is bigger, stronger, and can take shots, too. Liger had a great run, but it ends with Lesnar.

Shadowmancer
05-26-2009, 03:41 AM
This match is normal rules that means that there is a DQ ability there is a ring count. It is a standard match not an ECW match. No weapons allowed, managers interfere they get ejected. I have been swayed by the striking argument for this match, I was leaning Lesnar in this match until the striking argument came up. Liger is quick enough to run that kind of offence/defense against Lesnar. Liger has also been portrayed as being smarter than what RVD was portrayed as at that time of the match at King of the Ring. The rey Mysterio match again gives a solid ground for Liger to have a chance in this match. Liger is far and away better than Rey and RVD. So With the striking style offense occurring throughout the match I can see a win etched out by Liger through a roll up of Lesnar.

tbanger
05-26-2009, 07:59 AM
This match is normal rules that means that there is a DQ ability there is a ring count. It is a standard match not an ECW match.


check the OP. its actually a standard ecw match. weapons encouraged.

Brock is just too big and too bad for Liger. None of the very long arguments in favour of Liger have swayed me away from voting Brock. I'd struggle to put anyone over Brock in ECW.

Slyfox696
05-26-2009, 08:47 AM
Excellent post by LigerBomb, but there's no reason that Lesnar will fall to Liger. Wait, how can you think that LigerBomb's post was "excellet" and then say there's no reason that Liger will beat Lesnar? You just contradicted yourself in the very first sentence!

How about the fact that Liger is a better worker? More experienced? More successful? Works better with more opponents? Can work a variety of styles?

Aren't those all reasons to vote Liger over Lesnar? The answer is, "yes, they are", because that's why I'm voting Liger over Lesnar.

Slyfox696
05-26-2009, 09:38 AM
Finally, for my last post on this subject (well, I plan on it, although I doubt it will), I introduce into evidence three reasons why Jushin Liger is a better wrestler than Brock Lesnar.

Reason 1:

xmjdl


Reason 2:


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Reason 3:

x2jy8n
x2jyek


After watching these three matches, how can ANYONE say that Lesnar is anywhere near the caliber of Jushin Liger? There is no doubt that Jushin Liger is a far superior worker, and these three matches prove it.

Little Jerry Lawler
05-26-2009, 10:52 AM
After listening to both arguments supporting Lesnar and Liger, I have come to a decision. It's true that Lesnar has beaten legends like The Rock, Undertaker, and Kurt Angle to name a few. However, Liger has been beating cruiserweights and heavyweights ten times the number of years that Brock has. Lesnar has many strengths but he also has weaknesses and it would be asinine to think that Liger wouldn't capitalize on them.

Lesnar was dominant in his first year but in the second you could tell that he seemed to be slipping. It's not inconceivable that he may underestimate Liger's abilities and that's where he would be in trouble. Liger is a far superior worker than Lesnar and I believe he can do everything Lesnar can do and more. I'm taking experience and overall wrestling ability and I'm going with Jushin Liger.

Uncle Sam
05-26-2009, 01:38 PM
Page 11? That's means I've missed two and a bit pages worth of posts. I won't go back and read them. What do I look like; a competent poster? "But of course not, thou fraud! Thy sarcasm knows no bounds!"

So, it's summary time. Basically, you should be voting in kayfabe. It's what you've most likely been doing up to this point (you hypocrite!), it's what the tournament is clearly designed for (otherwise why are there gimmicks, regions etc. etc.?) and something, something, something. If you're voting in kayfabe, which you definitely should be, then you should be voting Lesnar.

Otherwise, ethnocentrism is always a good reason. Vote for the American guy. Remember World War 2?

Big Sexy
05-26-2009, 02:48 PM
With this match it really depends on how you are voting in the tournament. Like Uncle Sam said because of the gimmick matches and different regions, it makes the most sense to me to vote based on kayfabe. Because of that my vote goes to Brock Lesnar. If you are voting based on accomplishments, longevity, or in-ring ability then the match obviously goes to Liger.

When it comes down to it Brock Lesnar rarely lost. I think the only person he ever lost to cleanly was Kurt Angle. As good as Liger was, he was far from unbeatable especially when it came to matches in the U.S. He had a couple stints in WCW where he lost to guys like Brian Pillman and even Juventud Guerrera. Once again it depends on how you are voting, but my vote goes to Lesnar.

IrishCanadian25
05-26-2009, 03:07 PM
You should ALWAYS vote based on Kayfabe in this tournament. Simply stated - for many of us "smarks," this tournament represents the last bastion of our childhood fandom, where we actually wondered if it was real, cried when Hulk Hogan was beaten by the Undertaker, teared up when Davey Boy pinned Bret in front of his countrymen, and felt legitimatey betrayed when Hulk Hogan joined the nWo. For these weeks, wrestling is real again.

If we went off some of Sly's points, and many of the points of other posters, then there would be no point to this tournament. In fact, if we went off of in-ring work, crowd connection, overall value to the business, etc, then the tournament would consist of Hogan, Hart, Austin, and Cena - and that's it. Why have so many participants then?

At the same time, I respect looking at total body of success and in-ring work as an indicator for one's ability. So I weigh Sly's "Liger worked better matches" argument just as heavily as I weigh anyone's "Brock is bigger and stronger," because if you believe wrestling is real, that matters. That's why Andre was a legend and Hogan's WM3 slam was the biggest moment in history.

In the end, I don't think it's far fetched to think Liger has a chance against Lesnar, even kayfabe. If you take Lesnar's prime - which is easy, since he only wrestled two years - you can discount the MMA stuff, because it hadn't happened yet. You still take it into consideration, since it's part of Brock's total body or work, but it had nothing to do with his pro wrestling prime.

Liger has experience wrestling foes of all shapes and sizes for decades. He's beaten them all, big or small. He's been a champion on two continents - as has Lesnar.

But in the end, is it really so far fetched to believe a smaller man who has 10x the experience as his opponent and a myriad of joint-splitting submission moves, kicks, and strikes could find a way to defeat a man of Brock's size and strength?

It's happened before. And in this tournament, it's all real again.

Uncle Sam
05-26-2009, 03:21 PM
In fact, if we went off of in-ring work, crowd connection, overall value to the business, etc, then the tournament would consist of Hogan, Hart, Austin, and Cena

I think even Sly might contest those two. I say that because I've seen his spreadsheets. And the spreadsheets don't lie. No siree bob.

So I weigh Sly's "Liger worked better matches" argument just as heavily as I weigh anyone's "Brock is bigger and stronger," because if you believe wrestling is real, that matters.

Being capable of putting on good matches and winning them are two separate things entirely. I mean, isn't that what anybody who detracted from Shawn Michaels in this tournament based their argument around? They've got a point, too. Steve Austin may have had a very good match with Bret Hart at WrestleMania 13, but the man still lost.

In the end, I don't think it's far fetched to think Liger has a chance against Lesnar, even kayfabe.

Well, it's not particularly far fetched, no. However, it's not particularly logical or sensible either. I mean, Rey Mysterio could feasibly beat anyone in the tournament, but he's just not going to.

Liger has experience wrestling foes of all shapes and sizes for decades. He's beaten them all, big or small.

He's also lost to a decent amount of very low ranking American undercarders.

He's been a champion on two continents - as has Lesnar.

Lesnar's got a knife on his chest. He'd use it to stab Liger to death.

But in the end, is it really so far fetched to believe a smaller man who has 10x the experience as his opponent and a myriad of joint-splitting submission moves,

I'd like to see him do the Brock Lock. That shit is messed up.

kicks,

I'll give you this one, though I hardly see Brock being kicked to the point of not being able to kick out. As a minor inconvenience to distract him before an unsuccessful Irish whip, countered into a massive clothesline? Sure.

and strikes could find a way to defeat a man of Brock's size and strength?

I already said about this. Why didn't you listen then? Could happen. Probability says it won't.

It's happened before. And in this tournament, it's all real again.

Frankly, I'm kicking myself for forgetting to vote Shawn Michaels.

Shocky
05-26-2009, 03:42 PM
Oh boy, so it’s a good thing I’m wearing boots, because after mucking threw the copious amounts of BS that has amounted in this thread, I don’t want to get my feet dirty. It’s amazing how a match between these two seemingly has started an all out NJPW/WWE war not so much in this thread, but in the bar room. This thread is sad. It’s not so much about being Pro-Liger as it is Anti-Lesnar. The Anti-Lesnar hate train has yet again reared it’s ugly head, and unfortunately it’s not about the match, it’s about making Lesnar look bad, and in turn, the Anti Lesnar regime has pretty much reduced their argument to name calling. So time to take the kid gloves off now.


Brock Lesnar received the typical monster push/ Lesnar only got over on his looks: See, this is the stupid arguments base right here. What is going on here is the Anti-lesnar camp is trying to play word association so you go on ahead and associate Brock Lesnar with these wrestlers. They will have you believe that Brock Lesnar was only pushed to the moon, but was set to have a fall from grace. That’s why they throw names like Umaga, Koslov, Khali, etc. out there on you. If they can get you to subliminally associate those wrestlers with Brock Lesnar, then you will begin to doubt Brock Lesnar.

I ask you this, how many world titles did Umaga win? How many times did Koslov close out Summerslam or Wrestlemania in a one on one match where he was a feature player? The answer to these questions, is of course zero. You know why, because Umaga, Koslov, or any other randomly thrown in big monster name were never meant to be Brock Lesnar. Brock Lesnar, from the get go, was never destined to be a mid carder. Brock Lesnar from the get go, was championship material.

Names like Shawn Stasiak have been out there because of his body, and the look of Lesnar. What they fail to tell you is, Shawn Stasiak had no where near the raw ability and skill that Brock Lesnar had. If wrestlers got over only based on look, then Chris Masters would be WWE champion. Brock Lesnar had look, but he also had intangibles. This is why guys like Stasiak and Masters failed, where a guy like Brock Lesnar thrived.

It’s all mind game at this point. The Anti-Lesnar camp plays guilty by association by trying to make Lesnar less then what the actual reality was. If you’re going to use names to compare him to, how about the Undertaker debuting and dominating everyone. That guy had a fairly successful career. How about Hulk Hogan returning to the WWE and going straight to the top. Yup, didn’t turn out to bad for him either.

Brock Lesnar supposedly had a bad second year in the WWE, by bad, that means holding onto the title for 9 out of 12 months. So if that’s a bad year, what’s a good year?

Not only are members of the Anti-Lesnar camp nothing more then name callers when it comes down to it, they also apparently read the future as well. So because they feel that Lesnar is like Umaga, then obviously Lesnar was going to have a down fall like Umaga. Um no, you don’t know that, I don’t know that. There are examples of guys that never lost the push. Brock Lesnar kept the push for two years, before he chose to leave the business. Umaga made it a year, Koslov, 9 months. Beware the Anti-Lesnar camp, not only are you inferior to their vast wrestling knowledge, but they also have the ability to see the future in alternate timelines.

Brock Lesnars amateur background is meaningless in this match:

Again, silly argument number two. So pretty much, we are supposed to pretend that Wrestling doesn’t exist. That the business you watch now, has nothing to do with wrestling. In fact, the company most of you watch isn’t indeed called World Wrestling Entertainment, instead, it is now the WSEE, or World Sport’s Entertainment Entertainment. The fact that two guys usually face off against each other, and the end result if for one to pin the other is irrelevant now. Glad that we now know what we are voting for.

So pretty much this is the argument, Brock lesnar is a superior mat wrestler to Jushin Liger, but since Brock did it as an amateur, and amateur wrestling has nothing to do with professional wrestling, then Brock’s knowledge on the mat is irrelevant since it’s completely different, um sure. So what exactly is Brock Lesnar supposed to do when he gets someone on the mat. Oh I know, maybe a people’s Elbow, or a five knuckle shuffle, maybe sell a T-Shirt, open a book or tell a story. It’s a silly argument, that is essentially baseless. Brock Lesnar wrestles people, because he is a wrestler, in a wrestling ring. Until the name of the game is change from Wrestling to Sport’s Entertainment on the Logo, then wrestling is the name of the game, and Jushin Liger can not out wrestle Brock Lesnar, period, end of discussion.

By this logic, we should not allow Jushin Thunder Liger to use all of the kicks that most of team Pro-Liger has been spouting off, because obviously a martial arts background is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with professional wrestling. Let’s go one step forward. All of that body building that John Cena did in his young days, completely irrelevant. I mean, just because Cena poses for the crowd and gets them fired up, it has nothing to do with the posing he did as a body builder. In fact, Steve Austin probably got into a fist fight at some point in his life, but since fist fighting has nothing to do with professional wrestling, we should take away the ability of Steve Austin to brawl. While we’re at it, rey mysterio may have trained to be a gymnast at one point or another, so we won’t allow Rey Mysterio to ever leave his feat again since gymnastics have nothing to do with pro wrestling.

See how silly this is getting.


Brock Lesnar wasn’t a draw…

When the going gets tough, let’s do what we do best, try to throw out a bunch of nonsensical bull crap to try and confuse people into voting against the guy. Sly will have you believe that Brock Lesnar didn’t draw, in fact. Sly would place the blame of Wrestlemania 19 and it’s buy rate solely on a rookie. Now as weak as that sounds, let’s take a look at Wrestlemania 19.

The Rock vs. Steve Austin (Billed as the meeting between the two)
Hulk Hogan vs. Mr. McMahon (20 years in the making, if Hogan loses he retires)
Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho (Shawn Michaels first Wrestlemania in 5 years, plus being an IWC wet dream match)
Triple H w/ Ric Flair vs. Booker T
The Undertaker and the Big Show in the same match
Rey Mysterios Wrestlemania Debut.

So… we’re blaming Brock Lesnar with a card stacked with the biggest names of the 90’s, 80’s and eventual big names of this decade, yup, makes sense to me. Wrestlemania 19 was a non anniversary Wrestlemania, as the business was coming to the end of it’s boom Cycle. On paper, the lineup for that Mania is about as solid as it gets. The problem, two many main events where no one knew what the main event was going to be. To blame Lesnar and Angle for the buyrate of this match is down right silly, if not absurd. With two title match, two huge under card matches, who knew what the main event was going to be? Only in hindsight is this pay per view judged based on Lesnar and Angle….

But you know what, that’s for the promoters to give a shit about. How buy rates have anything to do with a kayfabe match like this is beyond me. It’s brought up simply to confuse and make you question your decision of voting for Brock Lesnar. You know, Vince McMahon and the WWE were obviously so concerned about this, that they only decided to put Kurt Angle in a title match at the following Wrestlemania, and Brock Lesnar in a match involving both Goldberg and Steve Austin. Yup, those two must have really had Vince McMahon worried. Think about it. One match, Steve Austin, Bill Goldberg, and the WWE decided to put Brock Lesnar out of the entire roster in the ring with those two, you tell me whose a draw and whose not..

Oh, and to simply dispel the myth that Brock Lesnar isn’t a draw, a list of the top 10 pay per view buyrates of 2008.

Top 10 North American PPV buy rates, 2008

1. Boxing: Oscar De La Hoya vs. Manny Pacquiao, Dec. 6, 1,250,000

2. UFC: Brock Lesnar vs. Randy Couture, Nov. 15, 1,010,000

3. Wrestling: WrestleMania, Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Paul “Big Show” Wight, March 30, 670,000

4. UFC: Georges St. Pierre vs. Jon Fitch/Lesnar vs. Heath Herring, Aug. 9, 625,000

5. UFC: Lesnar vs. Frank Mir, Feb. 2, 600,000

6. UFC: Quinton Jackson vs. Forrest Griffin, July 5, 540,000

7. UFC: St. Pierre vs. Matt Serra, April 19, 530,000

8. Boxing: Felix Trinidad vs. Roy Jones Jr., Jan. 19, 500,000

9. UFC: Chuck Liddell vs. Rashad Evans, Sept. 6, 480,000

10. UFC: B.J. Penn vs. Sean Sherk/Tito Ortiz vs. Lyoto Machida, May 24, 475,000

Hmmm, notice anything there? Brock Lesnar fought 3 times for the UFC in 2008, and all 3 of those fights cracked the top 3 in pay per view buyrates for the year of 2008. Notice the WWE on there, yup that’s right, once, and their flagship show, with a bumped buyrate thanks to a flyweight boxer. If you’re going to bring in ability to draw, name value and recognition into this, then trying to say that Brock Lesnar isn’t a polarizing figure that gets people interested in a product, you’re out of your damn mine. There is a reason the WWE let the UFC use footage of Brock Lesnar on pay per view, because the WWE was hoping to get some sort of interest in it’s product based upon the popularity of Brock lesnar. Tob ad it seems that those Brock Lesnar Marks seemed to bump the UFC, and not the WWE, boy that Brock, can’t draw flies I guess.


Brock Lesnar’s Inexperience/Abandoned the Company/Shitty Worker, blah blah blah:

So we come to maybe the only field in which Jushin Liger might actually have a case to be made for him, experience in the business.

People tend to believe that Brock Lesnar is some giant one dimensional moron that couldn’t wrestle his way out of a box. One Dimension, I thought that was strong at one field of the business. I guess being a superior mat wrestler, striker and a power wrestler all constitutes as one dimension now? Okay.

Sly doesn’t like Kurt Angle, Sly doesn’t like Brock Lesnar. In fact, if you see a pro Angle or pro Lesnar thread being made on these forums, rest assured that Sly will be in their trying to tell you why both of those guys suck, even though one is damn near a lock to be a top five finisher in wrestler of the decade, and the other had the most dominate two year run in the history of the business.

Liger had 20 years of experience, good for him, but how often does experience matter, especially with someone like Brock Lesnar? Where the Hardy Boyz more experienced when they were demolished by the next big Thing? Was Rob Van Dam not more knowledge in the business before losing the King of the Ring? Was not Hulk Hogan or Ric Flair, the Undertaker, Big Show, or how many others you want to put in front of Brock not more experienced, but in the end left lying in defeat by the young monster.

Lack of experience has never cost Brock Lesnar a wrestling match, ever. If we’re going to vote for guys based on experience along, then why isn’t Lou Thesz still in this, he was far more experienced then Sting. In fact, next year I’ll make sure to vote for Tito Santana over John Cena, maybe Jim Duggan over Goldberg, or perhaps the Brooklyn Brawler over the Ultimate Warrior. In fact, all three of those guys wrestled much longer then their opponents here, and many more diverse opponents. This crap argument that Brock Lesnar didn’t wrestle a variety of guys is bullshit. Whether he was destroying a cruiserweight jobber in Funaki all the way up to a super heavyweight main eventer in the Big Show, Brock Lesnar beat everyone from every background, in every type of match.

This misconception exists that Brock Lesnar was a dumb wrestler, that relied only on his abilities to get him to the next level is a travesty to. I mean, this isn’t the guy that decided to play mind games with the Undertaker by putting his hands no only on Taker’s Wife, but on her stomach and the womb of the unborn child of the Deadman in side to piss him off and get him off his game. No, this wasn’t’ the same Brock Lesnar that completely isolated the Broken Arm of the Undertaker and destroyed it more in the Hell in the Cell. No, this wasn’t the same Brock Lesnar that intentionally got himself disqualified in an Iron Man match against Kurt Angle to cause damage, only to pick up two pinfalls at a time. Yup, sounds like a very dumb wrestler to me. The guy knew exactly how to get into the heads of his opponents, and that’s why he won so much.

Brock Lesnar was a great worker, and it’s the people that want to tell you that a wrestler isn’t good if he uses a suplex that is wrong. Brock Lesnar has been called, confident, cocky, unappreciative all of this, in this one thread. Congratulations, you’ve been worked by Brock Lesnar. So exactly how is a young mid 20’s wrestler that goes into the business, dominates everyone, and becomes champion supposed to act. Owe, cowardly, that’s correct I forgot. It seems that if you’re not a cowardly heel, then you don’t play a good heel. Brock Lesnar played the character he was asked to play perfectly, and you’ve all bought into it, hook, line and sinker. You think he’s a cocky asshole, good, you’re supposed to think he’s a cocky asshole. Obviously though he doesn’t know how to work, because using suplexes means he’s catering towards smarks, when in reality the suplexes wear down the entire torso of the opponent to set up for his finisher the F-5, but we’ll ignore that little factoid and just say he was an inferior worker even though there is no evidence to support that.

People simply hate Brock Lesnar because he left the business, nothing more, nothing less. He excelled at something that we all love, but decided in the long run, it wasn’t for him, so he left. So what happens, the people that watch and support him get pissed off, and decide to hijack the biggest pay per view of the year to get into the head of Brock Lesnar. Hurray Garden crowd, be proud of yourselves on that one. The fact of the matter is this, Brock Lesnar busted his ass for the time he wrestled for the WWE, and people loved to watch him. When he made a decision to risk it all, the guaranteed money, the push, the life so he could do something else in with his life, it all change.

Wrestling fans have an air of self righteousness about themselves. If a wrestler leaves the business prematurely, then he’s a no good bastard. The Rock left to pursue something else, he’s an asshole. A Wrestler leaves a small promotion to do what’s best for his family and make more money elsewhere, he’s a sell out. Give me a break. Brock Lesnar left the business because he wanted more, and in turn has become just a big of a name in sports as the WWE in the long run. It was a great risk, and it happened to be a great reward in the end.

Brock Lesnar wanted to come back in 2005 and give back to the business. He wanted a one time deal to have a match with Batista at Summerslam 2005 to put Batista over solidly as champion. The meeting went as far as a face to face in titan towers in 2005, before eventually negotiations fell apart. So to say he out right abandoned the company is a falsehood, considering the company let him out of his contract, and was willing to bring him back in 2005.

Brock Lesnar will not lose a Kayfabe match to Jushin Thunder Liger:

No way, no how does Jushin Thunder Liger match up with Brock Lesnar at all in a wrestling ring, with no rules. Lesnar is stronger, Lesnar is just as quick, Lesnar has just as much cardio training, and Lesnar is flat out meaner.

For all the weaknesses that Brock supposedly has, no one has been able to give one shred of proof as to how Liger would exploit it. Brock Lesnar’s big losses include a loss to Eddie Guerrero, after Bill Goldberg not only interfered before the match, but during the match. So effectively it took a 2 on 1 situation there to beat Lesnar. Brock lesnar lost a Wrestlemania match to Bill Goldberg, all the while feuding with the referee the week before hand, so really another 2 on 1 environment. Brock Lesnar lost to the Big Show, via a steal chair shot and a Choke slam. All well and good and perfectly legal in this environment, however, do you honestly believe Liger can swing a chair, and then hit a high impact move on Lesnar to keep him down, didn’t think so. And finally, Kurt Angle, making Lesnar tap to the ankle lock. Nothing wrong with that. You know for as an inferior worker that Anti-Lesnar Camp claims that Kurt Angle is, it was only two years prior to this that he made Steve Austin tap out to the Ankle Lock. Steve Austin, Tap, Ankle Lock, so you tell me how bad of a loss the match with Kurt Angle was.


When you cut away all of the crap, all of the BS in this thread the only valid arguments for Liger at this point have been, Strikes with Kicks (oh wait, he can’t use those since Martial Arts has nothing to do with Pro Wrestling…) and roll up. Pretty much when the basis of an argument and why a wrestler wins a kayfabe match comes down to kicking and roll up, the choice is obvious, Brock lesnar demolishes Liger in this match. Liger’s finishing maneuvers are a glorified Face Buster, and the Liger Bomb. Now, if you want to believe that Brock Lesnar is going to stay down to a power bomb from a 200 pound, 5’7” man, that’s all on you, my money is on Brock.

It comes down to this. If you wanted to vote for Liger, but sly convinced you otherwise because you would be a mark, so what. You know, I like the feeling for the first time I saw Brock Lesnar destroy both Hardy Boys. I liked the feeling of seeing a guy pick up men like Mark Henry and Rikishi on his shoulders, with ease. I liked standing in awe as I watched Brock Lesnar choke the blood out of Hulk Hogan and rub it on his body as a badge of honor. I liked marking out to Brock Lesnar becoming the youngest WWE Champion in history. I liked Marking out to watching Brock Lesnar destroys the Undertaker in a Hell in the Cell match and stand atop the Cell and gloat. I liked Marking out as Brock Lesnar lifted the Big Show on his shoulders and proceeded to give him an F-5. I liked marking out as I watched in horror as Lesnar missed a shooting star which would have killed most men, and then have the where with it all to still beat Kurt Angle. I liked Marking out to Brock Lesnar superplexing the Big Show and collapsing the ring on Smackdown. I liked Marking out to watching Brock Lesnar play the Smarky Madison Square Garden crowd at Wrestlemania 20.

You know what, I’m a mark, and damn proud of it, and my Marky ass is voting for a guy that wins this match with ease, Brock Lesnar. Don’t let the name calling detour you from voting for who you want. Don’t let Sly work you like you’ve been supposedly worked to believe that Brock Lesnar was good. You don’t supposedly stay in the main event for two years unless you are good, and Lesnar was good, and better then Liger.

Tastycles
05-26-2009, 04:10 PM
Brock Lesnar is the single biggest reason why the percentage of my friends who watch wrestling went from around 85% to around 1%, and that is no exaggeration. I genuinely believe that the correlation between Lesnar's push and the ratings dying on their arse is related. These are the facts, but you can choose to read them however you wanted.

Up until Lesnar's debut, Raw drew high 4 ratings consistently, by the time he left the brand 4 months later, they had fallen by a full point to being mid 3s. Possibly not his fault, but the guy was getting the biggest push at the time, undoubtedly. He was then drafted to Smackdown and became champion. The ratings initially dropped a little, but once Lesnar became unquestionably the number one guy, they dropped further.

That's two correlations that lead me to believe that he wasn't a draw. I can't prove it though, so draw your own conclusions.

I don't know a lot about Liger, but the more I learn, the more I'm impressed. Lesnar wasn't ever really over with the fans to the level the WWE wanted to be, and more importantly, he is the reason why I stopped watching WWE programming for several years. Until now, I havent had a reason to vote against him, but here I do.

While I could never put it as eloquently as some of the big Liger fans, I can say this, Jushin Liger could and should beat Brock Lesnar in a regular wrestling match, and that's where my vote is going.

IrishCanadian25
05-26-2009, 04:16 PM
Okay, here is goes. Shocky just made what could be the post of the year, and here is his co-admin ready to banter back.

Here's the thing - almost every one of Shocky's points - the ones he used to refute the Anti-Lesnar camp with - are just awesome. I agree with almost every point.

Brock Lesnar received the typical monster push/ Lesnar only got over on his looks

AND

Brock Lesnars amateur background is meaningless in this match

LOTS of guys got their shot because of a needle. Lesnar came to the game with credentials already in place due to his amateur wrestling background. Yes, Sly claims amateur wrestling has fuck-all to do with professional wrestling. He couldn't be more wrong.

In fact, a solid amateur wrestling background does wonders for a professional wrestler, because it makes that person more believable to a crowd and to a viewer. Kurt angle showed up with some steam because he was a legit athlete. Before ever watching him wrestle I knew Mark Henry came to the table with impressive olymipc powerlifting stats. Now, a strong amateur background does not instantly translate into success (see: Charlie Haas, Shelton Benjamin) but it can't hurt.

Another thing you need to realize about Brock's background, size, and physique is the work ethic required to accomplish all of that. Even before the guy climbs in the ring, you can say to yourself "holy shit, this guy's a hard worker, we can take that at face value."

Brock Lesnar wasn’t a draw…

LOTS of guys were not "draws" but were still excellent professional wrestlers. Maybe they weren't the greatest of all time, maybe they weren't as "successful" as Hogan and Austin, but I won't discard names like Sting, Hart, and Michaels because of this statistic alone.

I firmly believe that "drawing power" deals more with fringe fans. For the people who vote in this tournament, we're hardcore fans. We watch not because of who's on top - we watch because it's professional wrestling, and that's just what we do.

And I'll admit, when Lesnar was wrestling - I watched a hell of a lot more intently than I do now. And I'm voting. The people who were only drawn by Hogan and Austin? Nowhere to be found.

Brock Lesnar’s Inexperience/Abandoned the Company/Shitty Worker, blah blah blah

This is where Shocky's argument moves more towards (Ctrl-V) smoke and mirrors. To say that, based on the experience argument, Jim Duggan should defeat John Cena or Brooklyn Brawler should defeat the Ultimate Warrior is silly redirection, similar to what he's accusing people of in the same thread.

All that the experience argument states is that a guy who wrestled for 20 years has this advantage over someone who spent 2 years in the ring. Hell, I am 27 years old, and I've been playing racquetball for 3 years now. I am very strong and in great shape - but I get my ass handed to me by 70-year-olds. Why? They're weaker, smaller, slower...but they've been playing for 30+ years. They seem to know what I am going to do before even I do. They know the bounces before they happen. They adjust and adapt.

I also think it's natural for fans to be upset with Lesnar for the way he went out. He went out in a very classless, selfish manner. Nobody would have given a shit about him in UFC at first if not for his WWE background. The guy is 2-1, and all of those matches were HUGE draws because he already had name recognition. Who gave thim that recognition? Pro wrestling, and he spit on all of us.

In the end, though I love the Devil's Advocate role, I've been a Lesnar fan actually since his amateur college days. But this discussion has been AWESOME.

Besides, don't we all want to see IC25 vs Shocky in a Vader vs Lesnar match-up?

NightShiftLegend
05-26-2009, 09:42 PM
You should ALWAYS vote based on Kayfabe in this tournament. Simply stated - for many of us "smarks," this tournament represents the last bastion of our childhood fandom, where we actually wondered if it was real, cried when Hulk Hogan was beaten by the Undertaker, teared up when Davey Boy pinned Bret in front of his countrymen, and felt legitimatey betrayed when Hulk Hogan joined the nWo. For these weeks, wrestling is real again.

If we went off some of Sly's points, and many of the points of other posters, then there would be no point to this tournament. In fact, if we went off of in-ring work, crowd connection, overall value to the business, etc, then the tournament would consist of Hogan, Hart, Austin, and Cena - and that's it. Why have so many participants then?

At the same time, I respect looking at total body of success and in-ring work as an indicator for one's ability. So I weigh Sly's "Liger worked better matches" argument just as heavily as I weigh anyone's "Brock is bigger and stronger," because if you believe wrestling is real, that matters. That's why Andre was a legend and Hogan's WM3 slam was the biggest moment in history.

In the end, I don't think it's far fetched to think Liger has a chance against Lesnar, even kayfabe. If you take Lesnar's prime - which is easy, since he only wrestled two years - you can discount the MMA stuff, because it hadn't happened yet. You still take it into consideration, since it's part of Brock's total body or work, but it had nothing to do with his pro wrestling prime.

Liger has experience wrestling foes of all shapes and sizes for decades. He's beaten them all, big or small. He's been a champion on two continents - as has Lesnar.

But in the end, is it really so far fetched to believe a smaller man who has 10x the experience as his opponent and a myriad of joint-splitting submission moves, kicks, and strikes could find a way to defeat a man of Brock's size and strength?

It's happened before. And in this tournament, it's all real again.

:thumbsup:

Between Ligerbomb's post, and this one, my vote for Liger is secured. It will be one hell of a fight, but I could see Liger getting the win in ECW. He's the type of guy that ECW used in the beginning to get their footing, before the blood and violence took over. Heyman would've given him big time matches, and the fans would've loved him.

Lesnar would be just the kind of person that failed in ECW. There was a few times where Heyman would bring in "the next big thing", and they would fall flat on their face. While Johnny Storm isn't in the same sport as Lesnar, he was brought in by Heyman to be the next big thing after Taz. He was supposed to be pushed to the moon, and hold every title, and carry ECW to the promised land. He lasted about 2 months, and was booed out of the building. He was quickly jobbing to guys like Nunzio and Spike, and then left to go home...

Besides, don't we all want to see IC25 vs Shocky in a Vader vs Lesnar match-up?

Wouldn't the winner here face the Edge v. Steamboat winner first?

EDIT: Apparently, pushing the down arrow to scroll through the page, before clicking "submit", can change your vote...Damn...Doesn't look like it'll matter anyway :glare:

LigerBomb
05-27-2009, 11:38 AM
On the matters of Kayfabe

Kayfabe is to treat wrestling as if the stories angles and events are "real". Sounds great, but the only problem is that at the end of the day wrestling is still booked as a worked series of events to elicit a specific desired outcome that falls in line with the story you want to sell. What that means is that in the "real" world of Kayfabe Land you can perpetually have a broken arm like Cowboy Bob Orton, you can confess murder by burning your parents alive like the Undertaker and suffer no legal repercussions, eat rats in a boiler room whilst pulling out your hair and then get gainful employment in the WWF like Mankind, hunt vampires like Edge, be a vampire like Gangrel, jump off the Titan-tron to your "death" like Road Warrior Hawk, rise from your grave time and time again like the Undertaker etc etc etc. Point is, Kayfabe isn't believing wrestling is real; Rather, it's the suspension of your utter disbelieve so as to enjoy the product produced. But Kayfabe is also the land of fairly tales, where upon a friend's tragic passing you muster up your courage, strength, and abilities to succeed and go farther then ever before by slaying giants and winning the gold a la Rey Misterio Jr., It's where once unstoppable monsters learn to speak and grow to have a heart only to be twisted into something different entirely like the un masked Kane, it's where the smaller irresistible force conquers the larger immovable object at Wrestlemania III, where Taz can dominate in ECW against much larger foes, where a Pretty Boy named Floyd can topple a really Big Show. Clearly Kayfabe allows things that you think couldn't happen, that you think shouldn't happen, that you think are the most impossible, to become real. Well, not real real... but "real". Kayfabe is where David often beats Goliath because it's the better story, the one that will sell tickets, put butts in seats, and the one that no one believes can happen yet secretly wants to see. Monsters are the insurrmountable odds that are only there to eventually be overcome and test the hero's resovle. And throughout human history we've held on to our hopes and we write stories that lay the monster low, slays the dragon, topples the giant. Kayfabe is belief in story telling no matter how impossible you believe the tale seems to be. Kayfabe is where a Thunderous Jushin Liger can slay a Green Monster like Brock Lesnar.

IrishCanadian25
05-27-2009, 11:46 AM
To anyone who has taken issue with my playing both sides of the fence in this match-up, I have 6 words for you that a lot of people will have to get used to hearing from me.

Kindly blow it out your ass.

I've played both sides to see how much debate I can get out of people. Face turn, heel turn, flip-flopping, etc. Call it what you want to. I researched Liger and then turned around and took his side, and according to NSL, made a pretty valliant effort. Then, I turned around and backed Lesnar. Do you know why? It's a challenge to research two men and then back both of them in the same debate. Do you know how much I've learned about these guys because of this thread?

Maybe my next post will be pro-Liger, just to put people off further...

The end result is that both of these men have a TREMENDOUS upside in this tournament, and both men are looking to advance further than they have in the past, with Liger becoming the amazing story of this year's tournament. But anyone who is upset because I jumped sides for a little fun, well, I couldn't give two shits.

Uncle Sam
05-27-2009, 02:16 PM
I thought I disarmed your Liger argument pretty well. People who are voting for Liger on a kayfabe basis (and gee, at least they're doing it in kayfabe) are largely justifying it to themselves by thinking that hey, Liger could win. And yes, he could. It's just more likely Lesnar will, and that's why you should vote for him.

Cena's Little Helper
05-27-2009, 03:44 PM
I thought I disarmed your Liger argument pretty well. People who are voting for Liger on a kayfabe basis (and gee, at least they're doing it in kayfabe) are largely justifying it to themselves by thinking that hey, Liger could win. And yes, he could. It's just more likely Lesnar will, and that's why you should vote for him.

Supporters of Liger in this thread have shown you that him beating Lesnar is possible, yes, as he has the physical tools necessary to do so. But, we have also outlined a strategy that we are confident Liger would adopt and we have shown that that strategy would probably earn Liger a victory. So, yes, we would be wrong if we conflated possibility with probability here. But, we haven't, as we knocked Liger's victory up a notch from possible to probable with our arguments.

To all of Liger's supporters: Well, we've fought the good fight here guys, but nothing short of a miracle will get Liger out of this deficit. Be confident and proud that you voted for the right man, and remember, there's always next year.

Murfish
05-27-2009, 04:02 PM
I've observed this thread for long enough. I must now stand for what is right and show you all why Liger is the best option. Let's take a look at the three qualities that make a wrestler great: ring attire, haircut, and name.

Ring attire is not a close competition here. Lesnar dons simple black trunks, which is overplayed and frankly generic. Liger, on the other hand, has a brilliant costume. It reminds me of the Power Rangers (in a good way). It's that easy, and from that conclusion we can deduce that Liger has the power of Zordon on his side while Lesnar has only his everyman stature.

Hair cut is the only place that Brock wins, and that is only because Liger wears a mask. If he didn't, Lesnar would have no chance. Brock's haircut make is that of a douche. Who asks the barber to do that? I'm tempted to give this to Liger sheerly based bad Brocks hair is.

Finally we have the last, most important factor: it is the name. Brock's name is mediocre at best.
Breakdown:
Brock --> Rock
Lesnar --> Less
According to his name he is a small rock. What can't rocks do? That's right, rocks can't kick out of a pin. Liger is more than capable of pinning a rock, as we see in his name breakdown.
Analysis:
Jushin --> Just
Liger --> Tiger
Now we have to routes to take for Liger's name. We can either take it as 'just a tiger' which can still easily beat a rock, or we can take it as 'a just tiger' which wins hands down every time. "Why?" you ask. A just tiger would have to have sentience to truly become "just", so a Brock would have to deal with a sentient tiger. That is a frightening prospect to say the least.

The only choice you are left with is to vote for Liger. Happy voting!

P.S.- Jushin is ambiguous and can also be analyzed as 'Joshi', which would further support Liger's win.

gd
05-27-2009, 04:45 PM
Ring attire is not a close competition here.

You're correct, Lesnar takes it easily.

Lesnar dons simple black trunks, which is overplayed and frankly generic.

Lesnar's attire is his perfect body itself. In fact, I'm sure he would wrestle naked if he was allowed.

Liger, on the other hand, has a brilliant costume. It reminds me of the Power Rangers (in a good way).

Nothing involving the Power Rangers can be good.

It's that easy, and from that conclusion we can deduce that Liger has the power of Zordon on his side while Lesnar has only his everyman stature.

Zordon is overrated, he was only booked to win battles by some Japanese guys.

Hair cut is the only place that Brock wins, and that is only because Liger wears a mask.

Brock's perfect hair beats anyone, regardless of a mask. Liger is probably a balding freak, hence the mask.

If he didn't, Lesnar would have no chance. Brock's haircut make is that of a douche. Who asks the barber to do that? I'm tempted to give this to Liger sheerly based bad Brocks hair is.

It is the hair cut of a champion. Just the other day I went to by barber with a picture of Brock Lesnar and asked him to cut my hair exactly like his.

Finally we have the last, most important factor: it is the name. Brock's name is mediocre at best.
Breakdown:
Brock --> Rock
Lesnar --> Less

You've completely twisted the facts and misinterpreted the name. You have to take is one step further.

Brock --> Rock --> Rocky
Lesnar --> Less --> Balboa

You may ask how "Less" translates to "Rocky", but as most language professors know, this translation occurs frequently in the Indo-European language tree. I expected better research out of you Murfish.


According to his name he is a small rock. What can't rocks do? That's right, rocks can't kick out of a pin. Liger is more than capable of pinning a rock, as we see in his name breakdown.
Analysis:
Jushin --> Just
Liger --> Tiger
Now we have to routes to take for Liger's name. We can either take it as 'just a tiger' which can still easily beat a rock, or we can take it as 'a just tiger' which wins hands down every time. "Why?" you ask. A just tiger would have to have sentience to truly become "just", so a Brock would have to deal with a sentient tiger. That is a frightening prospect to say the least.

Once again, you have misinterpreted the facts. In fact, the true translation is

Jushin --> Just --> Rust
Liger --> Tiger --> Tigger

Now, the creates a completely one sided match up for Brock. Rocky Balboa against a rusty, stuttering cartoon character? Tigger always played second fiddle to Pooh anyway, while Rocky was a dominant champion with a successful movie franchise. He would knock the fucker out in second.

The only choice you are left with is to vote for Liger. Happy voting!

P.S.- Jushin is ambiguous and can also be analyzed as 'Joshi', which would further support Liger's win.

Vote Rocky Balboa

Uncle Sam
05-27-2009, 04:58 PM
Supporters of Liger in this thread have shown you that him beating Lesnar is possible, yes, as he has the physical tools necessary to do so. But, we have also outlined a strategy that we are confident Liger would adopt and we have shown that that strategy would probably earn Liger a victory. So, yes, we would be wrong if we conflated possibility with probability here. But, we haven't, as we knocked Liger's victory up a notch from possible to probable with our arguments.

Well, you might have but - as we all know - all Liger's supporters aren't quite as good as you, my Renegade Angel friend. I still don't buy the "strong style" argument you proposed. It's a good argument, but I think it's flawed. Lesnar has demonstrated incredible endurance, along with remarkable ring smarts and technical skill. More than enough to prevent him being worn down and submitted (is that the correct form of the verb? I think it is) by the Japanese legend.

I'm almost pleased to see that the hardcore environment hasn't factored in at all, really. I am guilty of milking it for a soundbite, however.

To all of Liger's supporters: Well, we've fought the good fight here guys, but nothing short of a miracle will get Liger out of this deficit. Be confident and proud that you voted for the right man, and remember, there's always next year.

I'm actually surprised that Liger hasn't drawn more votes. However, I think Lesnar has crossed the margin that makes it all but impossible for Liger to claw it back at this stage. On the whole, the Liger supporters have done a lot when they were given so little. Shit, you got the man past one of the winners of this tournament in Shawn Michaels. That is a massive, massive achievement.

Murfish
05-27-2009, 05:13 PM
You're correct, Lesnar takes it easily.
I call smoke and mirrors.
Lesnar's attire is his perfect body itself. In fact, I'm sure he would wrestle naked if he was allowed.
If his body was perfect, where is his neck? And since when has a wrestler's body had anything to do with greatness? His attire was lame.
Nothing involving the Power Rangers can be good.
Maybe if you're a villain(I'm not referring to village dwellers here).
Oh, and there's this...
K0KOfTV1dbc
Zordon is overrated, he was only booked to win battles by some Japanese guys.
He was a floating head, a floating fucking head. Later we see that he's a head attached to a bag, but the fact remains that he put himself over and was legitimate bad ass in his heyday.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn234/murf1sh/ZORDON25.jpg
Brock's perfect hair beats anyone, regardless of a mask. Liger is probably a balding freak, hence the mask.
And balding freak is > than Brock Lesnar's 'I'm a utilitarian douche' cut.
It is the hair cut of a champion. Just the other day I went to by barber with a picture of Brock Lesnar and asked him to cut my hair exactly like his.
If your barber had any good sense, he would have kicked you out of his store.

And Hulk Hogan had the haircut of a champion, you oaf (Hulk Hogan support by Murfish coming soon).
You've completely twisted the facts and misinterpreted the name. You have to take is one step further.

Brock --> Rock --> Rocky
Lesnar --> Less --> Balboa

You may ask how "Less" translates to "Rocky", but as most language professors know, this translation occurs frequently in the Indo-European language tree. I expected better research out of you Murfish.
I'm more concerned about how Less translates to Balboa, but ok. I'll admit that I simplified my charts for the sake of some of our uneducated posters. The real charts use both Proto-Indo-European and can even be traced back to the 'click' languages of ancient Africa.

Brock --> Rock --> Rocky-->Rockina-->'click-clack-snap-click-click'= impotent sea urchin

Lesnar --> Less --> Balboa-->Bella-->'snap-clack-snap-click-clack'=handsome

I'll concede that Brock Lesnar actually means handsome, impotent sea urchin.
Once again, you have misinterpreted the facts. In fact, the true translation is
Jushin --> Just --> Rust
Liger --> Tiger --> Tigger

Now, the creates a completely one sided match up for Brock. Rocky Balboa against a rusty, stuttering cartoon character? Tigger always played second fiddle to Pooh anyway, while Rocky was a dominant champion with a successful movie franchise. He would knock the fucker out in second.
Might I ask where your local truant officer is? You're slipshod translations tell me that you should probably spend less time on your facebook.

Jushin --> Just --> Rust-->Nail-->Vail-->Vill-->Village-->Town

Liger --> Tiger --> Tigger-->Pooh-->Bear-->Panda-->China

See? The movie Chinatown, thought it isn't a tangible object, wins against an impotent sea urchin every day of the g-damn week.
Vote Rocky Balboa
Vote for Chinatown.

WrestlingAuthority90
05-27-2009, 05:24 PM
Sorry bro, saying Liger should win because he looks like a power ranger is just ridiculous. Brock Lesnar would tear Jushin Liger's power ranger ass apart in no time. If an overweight slob like Samoa Joe can defeat Liger, so can Lesnar. Lesnar is HUGE, RIPPED, and a trained REAL SHOOT FIGHTER. All those things basically mean that Liger would be a dead man. Jushin Liger is one of the greatest Japanese wrestlers of all time. But that doesnt mean shit when you're facing a beast like Lesnar.

gd
05-27-2009, 05:25 PM
Shit Murfish, you got me. There is no possible way that I can respond to that post, except with this.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/Rita4-14a.jpg

In all seriousness, it has been a great run for Liger in this tourney. tdigle and LigerBomb have done a great job getting him these far, but they ran into Lesnar, who seems to be an unstoppable force in this tourney. There's always next year.

Murfish
05-27-2009, 05:32 PM
Sorry bro, saying Liger should win because he looks like a power ranger is just ridiculous. Brock Lesnar would tear Jushin Liger's power ranger ass apart in no time. If an overweight slob like Samoa Joe can defeat Liger, so can Lesnar. Lesnar is HUGE, RIPPED, and a trained REAL SHOOT FIGHTER. All those things basically mean that Liger would be a dead man. Jushin Liger is one of the greatest Japanese wrestlers of all time. But that doesnt mean shit when you're facing a beast like Lesnar.
:lmao:
I guess you didn't read my post. It's so much more than just looking like a power ranger.
Shit Murfish, you got me. There is no possible way that I can respond to that post, except with this.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/Rita4-14a.jpg

In all seriousness, it has been a great run for Liger in this tourney. tdigle and LigerBomb have done a great job getting him these far, but they ran into Lesnar, who seems to be an unstoppable force in this tourney. There's always next year.

It was a good fight, GD. I also appreciate the work that people put into Luger. I really thought he was going to be this year's Vader, but it just didn't work out.

Good luck to everyone and keep an eye out for my Hogan post in the next round.

LigerBomb
05-29-2009, 03:19 PM
Unless the tourney suddenly gets swept up in Liger revelry the like of which have never been seen before ,it's with a fair degree of certainty that I concede a defeat, of sorts. In regards to the somewhat lopsided outcome, oddly enough, I'm surprised and yet... not, and all at once to boot. I should think its clear to all but perhaps the most ocularly challenged few that this match up mostly began and ended with the obvious disparity of size between both competitors. What little bit of argument was left was largely brushed aside by the opposition's continued citation of Brock's staged meteoric rise. Brock's two year dalliance with WWE resulted in a lasting legacy akin to a proverbial drop in the Pro Wrestling bucket. However, since his departure from the sport, said meteoric rise has mutated into an ever living shrine to Kayfabed greatness and accomplishment with such virulent proficiency that swine flu should take notes as to how to reach such vaunted Pan-Demic status as quickly. Kayfabe being the slutty whore she is has seduced many a poster to believe in her tarted up false realities and illogical logics to the point that only the most chaste of men could see through the perfumed commotion and stumble upon the somewhat sticky floor of truth left behind. That truth of course being that Kaybe herself is the unreal made "real"; a sort of Dan Brown Angles and Demons-esque Antimatter touching Matter conundrum that explodes common sense from the inside out upon impact leaving one to not so much scratch their head in confusion, but rather treat the gaping head wound in an attempt to prevent blood loss induced death. Kayfabe isn't real... hell, "reality" isn't real. WWE offered up the tainted goods and some of us even bought it, or at least shrugged our shoulders and went along for the ride. Who knows, I'm one to flip a good flop on occasion and can often cover up past transgressions by claiming learned hypocrisy. However in the case of Brock Lesnar the Pro Wrestler I wasn't even given the chance to reel in my past character assassinations let alone change them to glowing praise. The next big thing wasn't even around long enough for me to fully compare it with the last big thing or even the current big thing in any meaningful and thoughtful way. Anyway, it has been wonderful to see others who may have approached these matches with little to no background of the Thunderous Beast God Jushin Liger come away with a new found appreciation and respect for the man the myth and the character. I wish I could leave this match with Liger's hand held high, all the while anticipating his next bout. But I guess what I can do is leave you all with the views of this round's champion in regards to his perception on the sport that we all apparantly believe him to be so great at and vital to:

“You get so brainwashed. You’re on the road 300 days a year, and that’s why guys get so messed up. This life just becomes a part of them. It’s not real, but some guys who are still in the business think it is. You look at Mickey Rourke in The Wrestler - he just couldn’t let it go. You live a double life. I was tired of trying to be who I was in the ring and then coming home for two days to be normal. They didn’t allow you to be. The guys who get out are the smart ones, really and truly.” -Brock Lesnar on Pro Wrestling

Uncle Sam
05-29-2009, 03:26 PM
The alternative to being Brock Lesnar is being Randy "The Ram" Robinson. The man is right - the smart ones are the ones who get out. Him and The Rock are now more successful than anybody who stuck around. Watching Scott Steiner or Ric Flair struggle to move or even breath is a sad, sad sight. Watching Brock Lesnar pulverise the world's greatest MMA fighters, on the other hand, is something glorious to behold.

Shocky
05-29-2009, 03:48 PM
“You get so brainwashed. You’re on the road 300 days a year, and that’s why guys get so messed up. This life just becomes a part of them. It’s not real, but some guys who are still in the business think it is. You look at Mickey Rourke in The Wrestler - he just couldn’t let it go. You live a double life. I was tired of trying to be who I was in the ring and then coming home for two days to be normal. They didn’t allow you to be. The guys who get out are the smart ones, really and truly.” -Brock Lesnar on Pro Wrestling

Nothing wrong with what he said at all. How many times on these forums do you read about someone saying so and so is hanging on to damn long to the business. When does someone over stay there welcome, and then do more to damage their career as opposed to make their legacy grow?

The wrestling business, especially stateside, has left a long list of whose who behind in it's wake to grow to the level it has. How many hundreds of professional wrestlers are now nothing more then corpses rotting in a pinebox six feet below the ground? I love the wrestling business, but the wrestling business in an unforgiven mistress that destroys as much as it creates.

Guys like the Rock, Brock lesnar, and if the rumors are true, Jeff Hardy, that get out early are the smart ones in the long run. They will be the ones that are able to play with their children, let alone grand children, without the support of a backbrace. They will be the ones that don't need artificial hips because they left body parts lying all over the world.

I love the wrestling business, but the business is also a killer.

Slyfox696
05-29-2009, 03:53 PM
Sorry bro, saying Liger should win because he looks like a power ranger is just ridiculous. No, what's ridiculous is saying that Liger looks like a Power Ranger. Jushin Liger was wrestling in his costume before the Power Rangers were ever invented.

I find it amusing that people have to resort to petty comments like that in order to justify a wrong decision.

Uncle Sam
05-29-2009, 04:35 PM
Relativity is not affected by time, Sly. I thought you would know that. Point being that, while Liger's costume may not be modelled after a power ranger, he still very much looks like one. The same could be said of MVP or Mike Knox.

Edit: Though Murfish, or someone, literally was saying Liger should win because he looks like a power ranger. Read the posts, Sly. Read the posts.