Vince McMahon & "The Audience of One" Philosophy

[Lord Sidious]

I was reading Mark Madden's latest column, which is usually a great read because I feel like he tells it like it is, and pulls no punches. A majority of his opinions directly reflect my very same opinions, as well.

Let's focus on the first part of the column ... which I pasted below, and then we'll address a few points in it.



THE NUMBERS DON’T LIE

Monday’s RAW did an overall rating of 3.3, 2.6 in the 18-49 male demographic. According to PWTorch.com, RAW’s audience declined 18.5 percent compared to the show’s previous five weeks.

That’s a cataclysmic drop even when you take going head-to-head with the NBA playoffs into account. What will WWE do?

Nothing. There won’t be an overhaul or a significant change in direction, that’s for sure.

If that’s because WWE believes their best-laid plans are creatively sound and will ultimately come good, fine. But it’s not.

Changes won’t be forthcoming because WWE books for an audience of one, Vince McMahon, and he has always explained away any rejection of his creative vision by saying the fans are wrong, not me. This is old news, to be sure, but worth reviewing when a rough rating rolls around. It’s not as if another wrestling company provides legitimate competition, and a 3.3 is still a monster number on cable.

So things will mostly remain the same. Vince may identify a scapegoat by minimizing someone’s push or even firing someone. But it won’t be the right someone.

For example, no one wants to see Shane McMahon play Superman. No one sees him as a legitimate competitor, badass, athlete or legitimate anything else. To make things worse, accepting 3-on-1 matches doesn’t make him seem tough, it makes him look stupid.

I’m sure Vince sees Shane’s main-event status as a way of extending the McMahon legacy.

But the best way Vince could extend the McMahon legacy would be by running an entertaining, profitable wrestling company. But WWE has become a crappy, jaded, declining, overextended wrestling company given an occasional artificial boost (like further monopolizing sports entertainment on TV by extending its tentacles into WGN, and wait until the unholy alliance with ESPN).

Writing this column becomes harder and harder. Almost everything in wrestling sucks. What’s there to discuss?


I have heard the "Audience of One" philosophy emphasized over and over and over again over the years, and have certainly come to believe that this is exactly what is transpiring with today's product.

In essence, Vince puts himself in the mindset of being a wrestling fan and putting on TV what he feels like "he wants to see", and then instructs Stephanie and the writing team to give him exactly what he wants.

Now, he is the Chairman, however is this Point of View not considered to be selfish? Imagine going back to everyone's days in High School, and you are working in a group. Now, you are supposed to be a team and coming up with ideas together, but one member of the group insists that "we are going to do things his way, and that's the end of the story."

How can someone be so closed-minded and so arrogant to assume that "he is always right"? Because that is the philosophy Vince evidently has. That "he is always right, and that the fans are wrong" ... which Madden points out.


Changes won’t be forthcoming because WWE books for an audience of one, Vince McMahon, and he has always explained away any rejection of his creative vision by saying the fans are wrong, not me.


What happens when the judgment of this person begins to falter? And a large number of customers are unhappy with his particular vision? How can one simply tell himself that millions of fans are "wrong" and that "he is right" in this case?

Secondly, when low ratings or poor buyrates are produced, what are your thoughts on Vince McMahon giving static to the writing team and putting the blame on them, as opposed to himself?

Case and point with ECW's December to Dismember. Vince McMahon started his new WWECW as a toned down version of Paul Heyman's ECW. Gradually, he began to alter the image of ECW, by slowly transforming the show into a developmental show ... all the while telling Heyman exactly what he wanted.

Before the show, Heyman is not happy with the show that was written, whatsoever. He tells Vince several times that "the fans are going to throw this right back in our face". Vince, happy with the show's script, says "full steam ahead"

Show time occurs, and the show was extremely poorly received. And instead of Vince sucking up responsibility for the show, he places all of the blame on Paul Heyman, and sends him home, while relieving him of his responsibilities as a writer of ECW.

What are your thoughts on Vince McMahon and his concept of "accepting responsibility", with what he did to Heyman?


Raw has gone from a 4.1 rating, down to a 3.3 last week. This week, it is safe to assume it may be even lower.

I see a lot of Vince defenders on here say that "the problem is with us, the fans. We expect too much." However, is that really the case, or is Vince simply giving us a sub-par product, that fits his vision, and he simply does not care what anyone else thinks?

To those Vince defenders, I want to raise the suggestion that the reason so many people are upset is because perhaps Vince is only booking to please himself, and is not listening to his customers, whatsoever, in what they are telling him they want to see.


I still maintain the biggest problem with wrestling is Vince's elimination of the competition, and his refusal to replace the industry with product alternatives that his competitors offered. That killed the interest in wrestling, in my view. It isn't the fans, but rather poor judgment on the part of Vince. However, is he going to admit this? Absolutely not.



This is what the "Audience of One" Philosophy has done to the product


He has no interesting characters left on the roster (he killed Orton's character)
He has removed any and all interesting and complex storylines
He has removed all edginess from the product, and offers no product alternatives.
He has failed to replace The Rock and Steve Austin's departures, with a star of their magnitude
He has removed the managers from the show
He has removed almost all emphasis on the Mid Card
He has destroyed the Tag Team Division
He has removed Face/Heel Commentary Teams and replaced them with Bland, Boring commentary teams.



Anyway, what are your thoughts on all of that, and Vince's "Audience of One" philosophy?

[Blade]

Vince has proven that he is not making the show just to his liking.

Vince never really liked the Hardys, in terms of pushing them higher up the card anyway. But he pushed Jeff to be WWE champion.

Now, it is easy to argue against Vince and how he supposedly makes the writer do what he wants to see. But if you let me play Devil's advocate for a moment, what else is he supposed to do? No matter what he writes, someone somewhere will have a complaint. He can't write for the audience of.... millions. So he trusts himself. He doesn't do what he wants to see, it's more like him doing what he thinks it will work.
Does it always work? No, of course not. But as I said, no matter what matches he made or what angles he thought would work or who he pushed, there'd always be a group of people complaining.

But he must be doing something right, the poll on this website showed that most people do actually enjoy what the WWE is showing right now.

It's also easy to blame the decline in ratings on how Vince is insane and makes crap wrestling shows now, but at the same time, WWE shows are still one of the top shows on their respective channels. People are just watching TV less these days. There was a study done by an Irish university that said since the recession people are watching less TV, for whatever reason. But I digress.

Give Vince a little more credit, because even if he does pull some crap sometimes, he still knows what he's doing and the WWE is still a very successful company, especially considering the current economic situation.

[Lord Sidious]

Vince has proven that he is not making the show just to his liking.

I don't think he has proven that to me.


Vince never really liked the Hardys, in terms of pushing them higher up the card anyway. But he pushed Jeff to be WWE champion.

That's because Vince was forced to. He was getting in a position where he knew he was forced to have to create new stars with the pending retirements coming his way.

If Vince had things his way, he would keep the belts on Edge, Triple H, and John Cena ... for more than likely, over a year. It is obvious that these three are his favorite champions, and it's pretty clear that viewer interest has declined over the years from seeing the "same old shit" (to borrow a phrase from the original ECW fans).



Now, it is easy to argue against Vince and how he supposedly makes the writer do what he wants to see. But if you let me play Devil's advocate for a moment, what else is he supposed to do? No matter what he writes, someone somewhere will have a complaint.

Where as it is true that you are never going to make "everyone" happy, let me throw back another question and ask "What is the measuring stick then, to determine when enough people are unhappy with the product, that there is a problem?" How many millions of fans do you need to lose, for one to accept that something, somewhere with the product is wrong?

Vince needs to learn not to be so bull-headed, and accept the fact that other intelligent people are better in-tune with today's pop culture and the wants of today's fans, more so than him. If I were Vince, I would be a lot more open to writer suggestions, suggestions from the talent (which he appears to finally be doing, now), and as I have mentioned several times ... offer the viewers choices and product alternatives in their wrestling programming.

Unlike Vince, I do accept that not all fans are going to embrace his vision, and that wrestling fans come in different shapes and sizes in their preferences, which was a lesson learned during the Monday Night Wars and the wrestling boom. And that is justified by each company doing the ratings and buyrates that they were doing, at the time.


He can't write for the audience of.... millions. So he trusts himself. He doesn't do what he wants to see, it's more like him doing what he thinks it will work. Does it always work? No, of course not. But as I said, no matter what matches he made or what angles he thought would work or who he pushed, there'd always be a group of people complaining.


Again, though, what is the measuring stick, and how many fans are you willing to lose, before we say, that there is a problem here? I don't care about small groups of people. But when thousands and millions of people begin tuning out, clearly there is a problem somewhere.

One of my biggest issues I have with Vince loyalists, is their "need" to justify anything Vince does with a "rubber stamp approval". The mentality is "Vince McMahon is God. Nothing he does is ever wrong. Just look at what he has accomplished."

Well, that is all fine and dandy, but as people age, sometimes their judgment gets impaired and they lose touch with their customers/audience. And that is exactly what I think has happened to Vince. The man is stubborn, and refuses to admit when he's wrong.

I judge people on their performance that they give in the Present tense. Not the past. And where as Vince performed well as a leader for decades, it seems to me that his time has come, creatively.

Here, Vince was emphasizing everyone planning Mania for weeks, and weeks, and weeks. He went so far as to berate Michael Hayes for wanting to concentrate on Smackdown and give a good show for the 500th episode, instead of "concentrating on Mania". What was the end result? A lackluster Wrestlemania, that was rated overwhelmingly negative by most reviews. What happened?


But he must be doing something right, the poll on this website showed that most people do actually enjoy what the WWE is showing right now.

So, a poll of 20 some fans on a website is sufficient to determine whether or not people are happy with Vince's performance? Not sure market research is up your alley (no offense) if you think that sample is an appropriate sample and direct reflection on the satisfaction of the product from the total potential audience.

It is safe to assume that most of the fans on wrestling forums, are fans who do enjoy today's product. Most fans who don't would simply do the common sense thing and move on. Therefore, results are somewhat skewed. Which is why when I come down on Vince and Creative, and people blast me for it, I don't get discouraged.


It's also easy to blame the decline in ratings on how Vince is insane and makes crap wrestling shows now, but at the same time, WWE shows are still one of the top shows on their respective channels. People are just watching TV less these days. There was a study done by an Irish university that said since the recession people are watching less TV, for whatever reason. But I digress.

WWE is still one of the top shows, but does nowhere near the numbers it used to do. How long is the downward spiral going to be acceptable to the company? Why are people tuning out to begin with?


Give Vince a little more credit, because even if he does pull some crap sometimes, he still knows what he's doing and the WWE is still a very successful company, especially considering the current economic situation.

The downturn and ratings decline occurred before the recession, though. And where as his company is doing fine as far as its profitability (which is all that really matters to Vince), that still doesn't mean that his revenues would be far greater if he would simply listen to what his audience is telling him.

I see so many people gripe about today's wrestling, and how much better the Attitude Era was, and what not. And I agree with them 100%. However, I think there are a large number of people who watch out of loyalty, and that's about it ... since it was a large part of everyone's childhoods. That certainly was the case with me, and the only reason I tune in to Raw each week.

However, I don't watch Smackdown (however, I may start watching Smackdown over Raw instead). I don't watch ECW. And I don't watch Superstars. I currently watch only the second hour of Raw, as I watch 24 at 9:00 PM instead. I find that show more interesting than Raw.

So I basically read the newsboards daily and only watch Raw from 10 PM to 11 PM each week. And I watch the PPV's for free (I will not pay for them, as I don't think they are worth it). I'm basically hanging by a thread of being a fan of today's wrestling, however I love to reminisce about the good old days on the forums.

[JETER123]

This thread is ridiculous...

Do you honestly believe that Vince McMahon is that spiteful?? Do you realize that Mr. McMahon the character isn't the same as Mr. McMahon the person? Vince isn't sitting there attempting to ignore what the fans want. The fans make him money...He's not gonna push us like that for the hell of it...Do I feel that Vince doesn't know what the fans want? Yes. But I don't think Vince is cracking a rib from laughing during the Khali Kiss Cam...

[finneycom1]

Boy, I am torn here fellas! One one hand, I agree with Sidious that I have yet to stop watching wrestling b/c of the loyalty aspect. Monday nights between 8-10 p.m. is the only time I make it a point to sit down and actually watch that 60 inch downstairs!! I feel that I will always be a wrestling fan no matter how crazy and absurd the storylines are.

I do agree that right now, it is not near as good as I have seen it from the last 20+ years that I have been a wrestling fan. I watch it now b/c from time to time they will let Regal have a match on Raw(always been a fan of his.) Or watch Michaels have a quality match. Or Triple H will show signs of his old "Attitude Era" self. But, the characters are not as compelling as they once was and the wrestling is not as good as it once was.(IMO)

On the other hand, I dont think anyone on here KNOWS how or what Vince is thinking or how is running the company. Not Blade, not Sidious, not even Mark Madden. But, I agree with Blade that how can one man put something on t.v. and expect everyone to like it. No one man can do this. I think Vince looks at the situation and agrees to go with something that he feels will go over well, but as of late, has ultimately failed. Or has he? The fact that most people on forums like this, have not liked the current direction of WWE, but forum posters only make up a small portion of the viewing audience. I honestly feel that most of the WWE haters on here have a huge problem with the "PG" rated direction that the company is going in. Thus, that disliking pours onto people's opinions of the company, Vince, and the current roster.

Trust me, if you don't like what is going on with wrestling now, give it some time. I honestly feel that it will rebound and probably head toward PG-13, in the future. If Vince feels the squeeze of declining sales, attendence, and t.v. ratings, don't put it past him to pull out all the stops. Bischoff, WCW, and the federal government couldnt put him out of business. I don't think the current state of wrestling will either!!

I don't like to see posts, though, that claim to think they know WHAT Vince is doing right now. Just b/c you dont like what he puts on t.v., doesnt mean that he is displaying a product only for him. Honestly, if the product was only meant to appease his liking, I don't think they would have ever moved toward a PG product. I think he is too sinister for that. LOL!!

[General Disarray]

I completely disagree with Madden on this one. First of all, he is being a total hypocrite. On his radio show, he only talks want he wants to talk about and completely rips apart callers for doing otherwise. I have no problem with it because it is HIS show much like it is Vince's company.

Now, I may not agree with McMahon's decisions all of the time, but I am not questioning his authority. It is obvious that whatever he has done has worked. He's been making decisions for years now and look what the WWE has become, the biggest company in the world.

Obviously, he is not going to please everyone all of the time, but I have no doubt that he always has the company's best interest at heart. It may be "an audience of one", but I don't think there is any other way of doing it.

[nickbwfc]

So you watch 5/6 of WWE shows and read shit mark madden says?

How do you know that vince isn't in touch with what's popular? If vince isn't in touch with whats popular how come Cena is appearing on mainstream TV and is in top ten searches? If Vince isn't in touch with with his fans how come they keep turning up to Boo/cheer the people he is putting in the main event?

[Big Daddy Fool]

So you watch 5/6 of WWE shows and read shit mark madden says?

How do you know that vince isn't in touch with what's popular? If vince isn't in touch with whats popular how come Cena is appearing on mainstream TV and is in top ten searches? If Vince isn't in touch with with his fans how come they keep turning up to Boo/cheer the people he is putting in the main event?

I know when i was a kid and wasn't keen on how to use the internet and wanted to find out about wrestlers I'd go to Google or Yahoo. Plus, internet seach ratings mean shit to the WWE, the TV ratings is what counts. With people turning up half of the crowd is kids who most will grow out of it and the other half are the people who havent grown out of it which goes back to the loyalty factor sidious was talking about.


If you ask me I feel Vince might be a little passed his prime. Even if that is true it's not a bad thing the man had an excellent run that is incomparable. Wrestling in general has always been behind the curve of what is popular. The dudleys doing the wuzzzzup when i guarantee a good portion of the audience has never seen that commercial its so old. MVP doing the ballin' thing when it was played out years ago. But back to Vince, I don't really think he has a grasp any longer on what the audience wants. I think he's out of touch with what is going on and might need to give more control to someone younger.

I think another thing that could be a reason for the decline was taking control out of the bookers and wrestlers about how promos and matches should go and handing it over to comedy writers. HE should've left it in the hands of the bookers/agents and wrestlers because they know more about wrestling then any writer on staff. They have great minds in Steamboat, Arn and Windham and they are leaving them to waste by not letting them plan out how the match is going to go. Also, putting the character of the wrestler in writers hands and into the writers is killing the generation and is why we have people on this site complaining about the same old guys being in the main event. How is a wrestler supposed to develop his character when he has no control over how it goes. I guarantee that the wrestler knows whats better for himself then some failed sitcom writer .

I sound like Jim Cornette there.

But onto the "Audience of One", I can see where that idea comes from because Vince won't put out something he doesn't like no matter what kind of reaction someone gets from the crowd. Christian probably gets a pop almost at the same level as Cena and Mysterio yet he is stuck on ECW champ. Ok he's champion there but we all know that means shit. If he did something for the fans Christian would've won the MITB. The amount of noise the crowd was making as it seemed he was gonna grab the briefcase was one of the loudest reactions they got that night. Probably the loudest if you exclude the HBK/Taker match. Another reason i can see the audience of one argument is because of the pot shots at JR. Whether it is the Santina thing, the draft, or that whole year where he got shit on and that whole colonoscopy and kissing the ass thing. I'm not a huge JR guy either but i know people definitely didn't want to say it.

I guess in closing I don't things will change in terms of Vince unless something dramatic. Lets just hope things change for the better.

[THE Madcap]

A few comments...

I know when i was a kid and wasn't keen on how to use the internet and wanted to find out about wrestlers I'd go to Google or Yahoo.

And the WWE is now catered towards kids...so that would inevitably be a good thing for Vince & the WWE, driving the main demographic to be interested in the product.

Plus, internet seach ratings mean shit to the WWE, the TV ratings is what counts.

Whilst TV ratings will always be their bread & butter and ultimately what drives their advertising/PPV revenue, however internet search ratings are a clear indicator of WWEs position within pop culture.

With people turning up half of the crowd is kids who most will grow out of it and the other half are the people who havent grown out of it which goes back to the loyalty factor sidious was talking about.

when has that been any different of any era of wrestling. You get kids who end up being your hardcore fans and those who end up growing out of it. I've had friends who were hardcore WWF fans of the 90s who grew out of the programming and never saw the Attitude era, likewise friends who watched during the Attitude era, who have since grown out of the product. You really gonna tell me that's an idicator of the quality of product?

Bit of maths... 1/2 kids + half hardcore fans = 1 whole crowd. Bit of common sense...kids can't attend WWE shows on their own, so they go with 1 or more adults. Kids see flashy toy spinner belt and John Cena merchandise, kid wants, adult gets, WWE pockets money. Good.

If you ask me I feel Vince might be a little passed his prime.

God help us all if we have to wait til 60+ to reach our prime

Wrestling in general has always been behind the curve of what is popular. The dudleys doing the wuzzzzup when i guarantee a good portion of the audience has never seen that commercial its so old. MVP doing the ballin' thing when it was played out years ago.

The dudleyz did the wuzzzzzup at the height of its popularity, it became their signiture taunt, most people get the significance. I fail to see also why "Ballin'" is played out, people still use that phrase, refer themselves to ballers, "ballin" is a way of life that's still heavily portrayed in hip hop culture. MVP's gimmick is that of a flashy "baller" type athlete, so it makes sense. Plus, he always gets a good pop with it.

But back to Vince, I don't really think he has a grasp any longer on what the audience wants. I think he's out of touch with what is going on and might need to give more control to someone younger.

This is why he hires writers. If it was your company, you would ultimately want to give the final go ahead to any creative ideas as a major stakeholder in the business, because these decisions can impact on you greatly.

I think another thing that could be a reason for the decline was taking control out of the bookers and wrestlers about how promos and matches should go and handing it over to comedy writers.

WWE is now a form of entertainment. We need to accept this. This is almost like saying actors and guys in charge of casting should be writing the scripts for sitcoms...

HE should've left it in the hands of the bookers/agents and wrestlers because they know more about wrestling then any writer on staff.

As per my above point. WWE = Entertainment 1st, Wrestling 2nd.

They have great minds in Steamboat, Arn and Windham and they are leaving them to waste by not letting them plan out how the match is going to go.

Not every match can be a Steamboat classic, the wrestlers should be working out their own matches themselves, guided by the time constraints put on them, eachothers styles and what needs to go on storylinewise.

How is a wrestler supposed to develop his character when he has no control over how it goes. I guarantee that the wrestler knows whats better for himself then some failed sitcom writer .

Wrestlers creative control worked really well for WCW.

Christian probably gets a pop almost at the same level as Cena and Mysterio yet he is stuck on ECW champ. Ok he's champion there but we all know that means shit.

It's not really feesible to give an automatic push to someone who's redebuted into the company, having come from being a world champion in a weaker, competitors company and who's never been in the main event picture in the WWE. Christian will get his time, once he is ready for it.

If he did something for the fans Christian would've won the MITB. The amount of noise the crowd was making as it seemed he was gonna grab the briefcase was one of the loudest reactions they got that night. Probably the loudest if you exclude the HBK/Taker match.

MVP got the biggest pop when he got closest to the briefcase, only followed by Christian, because we didn't wanna see Punk win again. I would know, I was there.

Another reason i can see the audience of one argument is because of the pot shots at JR. Whether it is the Santina thing, the draft, or that whole year where he got shit on and that whole colonoscopy and kissing the ass thing. I'm not a huge JR guy either but i know people definitely didn't want to say it.

JR needs to lighten up sometimes. Santina, pfft. That was nothing. Play the game, it's entertainment. The draft...well I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that JR acted highly unprofessional here. The whole colonoscopy thing was a big hard to watch, I'll give you that, but Vince was pissed with him leaving the company. The kissing the ass thing was one of the greatest and most unexpected heel turns seen on RAW for a while, great TV.

Lets just hope things change for the better.

Lets.

[Smart Mark]

This is a problem I have had with WWE for a long long time, I'm so happy this is actually being discussed. In a word where WWE has no competition it is even more important that ratings drop when the quality of the product is bad. Vince isn't as close minded and spiteful as Mark makes him seem. He is running a company and needs to make money. He is not going to make changed because he is getting good cable ratings and is selling out arenas every where, why change any thing, from a fiscal point of view he is doing every thing right. Cena is crammed down our throats week after week after week because he makes money. His character easily transitions to other media and he sells the most merch(go to a show and count the kids in Cena gear around you). He will stay ontop for as long as he makes money for the company. Even if rates have dropped, why would the WWE change any thing with cable ratings that are really good over all? Why would they change any thing when they set up a ppv and all the seats are filled? If you don't like whats happening in wrestling right now, stop watching. If you are unhappy with the product of the WWE stop giving them money. WWE is a company who sells you 4 products; Raw, SmackDown, ECW, and now Superstars. These products are just like any other that you buy from any other company. If you don't like it don't buy it, and products that don't sell well will either be fixed or tossed. Above some one said that you should just wait it out, but if your continuing to watch and buy PPV's and than just come back here and complain the WWE still has your money and is laughing all the way to the bank. If you pay some one to mow your lawn and they fuck up week after week after week, you don't wait it out under the assumption that "things will get better."

If your unhappy with the product of the WWE, stop watching.

[Lord Sidious]

This thread is ridiculous...

Do you honestly believe that Vince McMahon is that spiteful?? Do you realize that Mr. McMahon the character isn't the same as Mr. McMahon the person? Vince isn't sitting there attempting to ignore what the fans want. The fans make him money...He's not gonna push us like that for the hell of it...Do I feel that Vince doesn't know what the fans want? Yes. But I don't think Vince is cracking a rib from laughing during the Khali Kiss Cam...

I know you can't reply to this since you have been Teddy Harted, but I still felt compelled to respond anyway. If someone else wants to respond on your behalf, they are more than welcomed to.

From most accounts, Vince is a very egotistical and arrogant man. That is what he has a reputation for being, around the industry. And no, that isn't the character of Mr. McMahon. That is the description given by the industry, as a whole, of how Vince McMahon really is.

I think the Mr. McMahon character is essentially himself on steroids. No, he isn't anywhere near as dramatic as that in real life, which goes without saying, but I do agree with how people describe him in that he is pompous, he is stubborn, and he is arrogant.

As far as ignoring fans, I have seen numerous people testify to the Audience of One Philosophy that Vince has.

His TV ratings, PPV buyrates, and arena attendance in the North American market haven't been this low across the board since the New Generation Era. And that is a fact. And I know a lot of fans of today's wrestling don't want to address that, because they like today's product themselves, and they feel the need to defend it. However, from a business perspective, I think the "WHY" is extremely important to pinpoint and discuss.

[fungule]

If your unhappy with the product of the WWE, stop watching.

I have. And based on the ratings, so have several others. It is complete garbage right now and Vince McMahon is one of the most overrated 'geniuses' ever. Any original idea he had was a complete failure, IBF, XFL, etc. Seriously how awful was the XFL? If you can't see how out of touch he is with the average viewer, just watch how the XFL was presented.

He lucked through the Attitude era where WCW pretty much did themselves in (with the announcing of Foley becoming champ, letting Jericho/Austin/Guerrero goto WWF). The Attitude era storylines were mainly stolen from ECW and hell most of it was Vince Russo. Plus at that time everything was new because they had never done any edgy programming to that point, so it was a ratings killer. I remember some weeks where Nitro was pulling around a 5.0 and Raw was doing around the same. Now they're the only show and they pull a 3.3, that's a huge drop.

They have worn out the edgy attitude era and every storyline now tries to mimmick what they had but it fails miserably. The writers are guys and girls who never grew up watching wrestling and have no idea what they're doing (see every Kane storyline, May 18, Kane vs Fake Kane, carrying the Rey mask around, come on!). Every freaking RAW also has the same format, open up with long promo, GM intervenes at some point and sets up some tag match or awful stipulation. Rinse, repeat. It's boring and played out.

I have watched wrestling since I was 2, so 25 years, so I'll probably always have some interest in it, but as for me tuning in every week, hell no.. not until they improve the show.

[Slyfox696]

His TV ratings, PPV buyrates, and arena attendance in the North American market haven't been this low across the board since the New Generation Era. And that is a fact. And I know a lot of fans of today's wrestling don't want to address that, because they like today's product themselves, and they feel the need to defend it. However, from a business perspective, I think the "WHY" is extremely important to pinpoint and discuss.
This is so terribly misleading, for a number of reasons. First of all, ratings are higher now than they were in the New Generation era by a full ratings point. Second of all, there are over twice as many channels on TV now than there were then. Third of all, the popularity of the NFL has skyrockted in the last ten years. Fourth of all, the creation of the Internet causes a hit in ratings and PPV buyrates. Finally, things like TIVO hurt ratings as well.

What you NEED to look at is the bottom line. And right now, the WWE is pulling in money hand over fist, in a MUCH greater fashion than they ever did during the New Generation Era. Outside of Hulkamania and Attitude, the WWE is doing its best business ever.

The Audience of One theory holds zero weight in my opinion. First of all, there are two inescapable truths when it comes to pro wrestling. The main-eventers are what sells your promotion, and the best way to get a person over with the fans is long term exposure. When you look at the WWE and the way they book, those two truths are very apparent. People talk about how Vince books for himself...but look at the main-event. Does that look like he books for himself, or is it booked in a fashion that is going to sell the promotion? Clearly, they book to sell the promotion.

For the undercard stuff? Who cares? Maybe Vince uses it as his plaything, maybe he doesn't, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that these undercard wrestlers are getting valuable experience every night, and they are getting more and more exposure to the audience.

So, the Audience of One theory is silly, because Vince only books to make money. And trying to use undercard shenanigans to say that he does it to amuse himself is pointless, because the undercard sells nothing and can afford to be booked for any reason at all.

[Lord Sidious]

I have. And based on the ratings, so have several others. It is complete garbage right now and Vince McMahon is one of the most overrated 'geniuses' ever. Any original idea he had was a complete failure, IBF, XFL, etc. Seriously how awful was the XFL? If you can't see how out of touch he is with the average viewer, just watch how the XFL was presented.

He lucked through the Attitude era where WCW pretty much did themselves in (with the announcing of Foley becoming champ, letting Jericho/Austin/Guerrero goto WWF). The Attitude era storylines were mainly stolen from ECW and hell most of it was Vince Russo. Plus at that time everything was new because they had never done any edgy programming to that point, so it was a ratings killer. I remember some weeks where Nitro was pulling around a 5.0 and Raw was doing around the same. Now they're the only show and they pull a 3.3, that's a huge drop.

They have worn out the edgy attitude era and every storyline now tries to mimmick what they had but it fails miserably. The writers are guys and girls who never grew up watching wrestling and have no idea what they're doing (see every Kane storyline, May 18, Kane vs Fake Kane, carrying the Rey mask around, come on!). Every freaking RAW also has the same format, open up with long promo, GM intervenes at some point and sets up some tag match or awful stipulation. Rinse, repeat. It's boring and played out.

I have watched wrestling since I was 2, so 25 years, so I'll probably always have some interest in it, but as for me tuning in every week, hell no.. not until they improve the show.


Great post. And you hit the nail on the head with the format being exactly the same every single God damn week. You feel like you are literally watching the same show every single, solitary week. All the shows look exactly the same, they follow the same format, same open, same bland commentary, same GM interference, GM then makes a match, then there is controversy in the main event .... it is basically the exact same show every single week, several times a week. Where the Hell is the variety? Furthermore, how can people not get sick and tired of watching the same show every single week?

I am asking this question very honestly and looking for honest answers and opinions. How do you not get sick and tired of watching the same show every week?

And as far as others calling your bluff in telling you to tune out, glad to see you did. I did before, and I will again. It angers me because I've been a fan of his product for going on 2 decades, and this man has completely taken away almost everything I enjoyed about the product.

This is what the "Audience of One" Philosophy has done to the product


He has no interesting characters left on the roster (he killed Orton's character)
He has removed any and all interesting and complex storylines
He has removed all edginess from the product, and offers no product alternatives.
He has failed to replace The Rock and Steve Austin's departures, and failed to create new and interesting characters
He has removed the managers from the show
He has removed almost all emphasis on the Mid Card
He has destroyed the Tag Team Division
He has removed Face/Heel Commentary Teams and replaced them with Bland, Boring commentary teams.

[Lord Sidious]

This is so terribly misleading, for a number of reasons. First of all, ratings are higher now than they were in the New Generation era by a full ratings point. Second of all, there are over twice as many channels on TV now than there were then. Third of all, the popularity of the NFL has skyrockted in the last ten years. Fourth of all, the creation of the Internet causes a hit in ratings and PPV buyrates. Finally, things like TIVO hurt ratings as well.

What you NEED to look at is the bottom line. And right now, the WWE is pulling in money hand over fist, in a MUCH greater fashion than they ever did during the New Generation Era. Outside of Hulkamania and Attitude, the WWE is doing its best business ever.

The Audience of One theory holds zero weight in my opinion. First of all, there are two inescapable truths when it comes to pro wrestling. The main-eventers are what sells your promotion, and the best way to get a person over with the fans is long term exposure. When you look at the WWE and the way they book, those two truths are very apparent. People talk about how Vince books for himself...but look at the main-event. Does that look like he books for himself, or is it booked in a fashion that is going to sell the promotion? Clearly, they book to sell the promotion.

For the undercard stuff? Who cares? Maybe Vince uses it as his plaything, maybe he doesn't, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that these undercard wrestlers are getting valuable experience every night, and they are getting more and more exposure to the audience.

So, the Audience of One theory is silly, because Vince only books to make money. And trying to use undercard shenanigans to say that he does it to amuse himself is pointless, because the undercard sells nothing and can afford to be booked for any reason at all.


Slyfox, I look at things from a business Point of view AND definitely take that primarily into consideration when I post, but I also take into consideration my own point of view as a fan of the product .... and then I weigh that point of view with the feedback I see of other fans and their thoughts on the product ..... and then form my conclusions.

And I'm sorry, but my opinions stands as is. Ratings, buyrates, and attendance haven't been this low since the New Generation Era. They may be higher than the New Generation Era, but they haven't been as low since then.

Vince may be happy because he knows he can take advantage of his base of fans, who buys his crap no matter what ... by raising his PPV prices, his show prices, the price of merchandise .... run a few more overseas shows ... cut salaries, cut the office, eliminate production values from house shows, and make other cuts across the board ... and turn a more profitable product. That's fine and dandy.

BUT, my point is that he would have a larger fanbase, and thus produce greater revenues, IF he would listen to his audience, which I have seen zero evidence that he is willing to do. Again, he is as smug as can be since he eliminated all his competition, and that is the primary reason wrestling is in the state it is today. And he can thank the Attitude Era for allowing him to be able to do that, in the first place.

[fungule]

He has removed the managers from the show


I don't have much to add as I feel we are both on the same page with our opinions, but this point made me think about Armando Alejandro Estrada. How over was that dude when he was managing Umaga? It was ridiculous, dude was a heel, he had the entire crowd talking along with his introduction, and what do they do? Absolutely bury him and clearly tell him to stop introducing himself like that. WTF? Sure, they wanted to get Umaga over, but really if this was in the past, both Estrada and Umaga could've co-existed, if not fed off each other to reach a higher level than Umaga has reached alone. Instead now you have Estrada future endeavored and Umaga going through the "rinse, repeat" of looking strong but ultimately losing (see Kane, Big Show, Kozlov, etc) every feud.

Oh well.

[Lord Sidious]

I don't have much to add as I feel we are both on the same page with our opinions, but this point made me think about Armando Alejandro Estrada. How over was that dude when he was managing Umaga? It was ridiculous, dude was a heel, he had the entire crowd talking along with his introduction, and what do they do? Absolutely bury him and clearly tell him to stop introducing himself like that. WTF? Sure, they wanted to get Umaga over, but really if this was in the past, both Estrada and Umaga could've co-existed, if not fed off each other to reach a higher level than Umaga has reached alone. Instead now you have Estrada future endeavored and Umaga going through the "rinse, repeat" of looking strong but ultimately losing (see Kane, Big Show, Kozlov, etc) every feud.

Oh well.

The sad thing is that I don't think Armando was anywhere near the best managers of all time list, but I think it was so refreshing for the fans to see a manager with personality, since Vince hadn't given one of them in ages ... that they ate it up. So what does Vince do? He takes him away and punishes him. Unbelievable.

I remember back in the day when Bobby Heenan and Rick Rude, who were both great on the mic, would be packaged together, and be one Hell of a team .... or when Jimmy Hart was paired with Honky Tonk Man, and they sold the gimmick together as a team.

Then, one day, all that changed, and Vince eliminated managers ... thus removing one of the most entertaining elements out of his product.

[Slyfox696]

And I'm sorry, but my opinions stands as is. Ratings, buyrates, and attendance haven't been this low since the New Generation Era. They may be higher than the New Generation Era, but they haven't been as low since then. But, you're wrong, which is the biggest problem you have.

Ratings may be lower now, but there are a TON of factors which play into that, and so criticizing on the base value of a rating, when you compare them to ratings of ten and fifteen years ago is silly. That's like comparing a baseball player today, with the benefit of steroids, HGH, legal supplements, improved weight training techniques, better bats, more hitter friendly parks, etc., against a player who hit in the 1960s, with the raised mound and no drugs. Trying to say that Brady Anderson was a better hitter than Willie Stargell because Anderson once hit 52 HRs in a season and Stargell routinely hit in the 20-30 HR range, is ridiculous...just like it is to compare the ratings numbers now to ten or fifteen years ago.

As far as buyrates and attendance go, once again your information is skewed. Again, there are several factors to take in. For example, the WWE was actually making a LOT more money from PPVs in 2005 and 2006 than they were before. The overall buyrates may have been lower, but the money was higher because of higher PPV price. And as far as attendance goes, you said you downloaded that information I put together. Look it over. Your attendance theory doesn't hold water, especially when you factor higher ticket prices and slumping economy.

Vince may be happy because he knows he can take advantage of his sucker fan base, who buys his crap no matter whatWhat you consider crap, another person considers enjoyable. You can't impose your opinions as more important than anothers...especially when that other is paying for his entertainment.

... by raising his PPV prices, his show prices, the price of merchandise .... run a few more overseas showsThat's called the law of supply and demand. You're a smart person, you know this.

... cut salaries, cut the office, eliminate production values from house shows, and make other cuts across the boardIt's called eliminating dead weight. Every company does it, especially the ones interested in making money.

BUT, my point is that he would have a larger fanbase, and thus produce greater revenues, IF he would listen to his audience, which I have seen zero evidence that he is willing to do.Are you kidding? How does he not listen to his audience? Why is John Cena the face of the company? Why did we have a DX reunion? Why is Jeff Hardy in the main-event? Why did RVD become a World Champion? Why is Rey Mysterio still around?

The fact of the matter is that Vince DOES listen to his audience. However, he doesn't listen to just one SEGMENT of his audience, which is what seems to bother you. Instead, he books for his ENTIRE audience...children, women, teens, young adults and older people. He books for everyone, and tries to offer a little something that everyone can enjoy. And, it's a good business strategy.

How does Vince not listen to his audience? Give me an example of him not listening to his audience.

Again, he is as smug as can be since he eliminated all his competition, and that is the primary reason wrestling is in the state it is today. Incredibly successful? Highly visible in main-stream media? Putting out theater movies? Providing a traveling entertainment show which is arguably the greatest company of entertainment in the history of the United States?

Is that the state you are referring to?

And he can thank the Attitude Era for allowing him to be able to do that, in the first place.The Attitude Era allowed him to survive temporarily. But where the Attitude Era kept him afloat and brought in much needed capital (albeit a lot of capital), the Attitude Era was targeted at ONE type of fan, and that was the 16-24 male demographic. But, as wrestling has proven to do time and again, it lost those fans between the ages of 21-25. And look what happened. On May 1 2000, we saw a cable rating of 7.4. On May 5, 2003, just three years later, Raw pulled a 3.5 rating. That's a drop of nearly FOUR RATINGS POINTS. That's ridiculous. And why did that happen? Because the WWE targeted only one audience, and they all left in those three years.

That's why you can't listen to just one segment of the audience, which what it seems you are looking for. You have to book for your WHOLE audience, and while some young males may piss and moan about a PG rating, the fact of the matter is that it stabilizes your company, cultivates a new audience, and puts more money in your coffers.


That's how you know McMahon doesn't book for one person. Because he offers such a large variety of wrestling, to appeal to his entire audience. Vince DOES listen to his audience.

[Big Daddy Fool]

when has that been any different of any era of wrestling. You get kids who end up being your hardcore fans and those who end up growing out of it. I've had friends who were hardcore WWF fans of the 90s who grew out of the programming and never saw the Attitude era, likewise friends who watched during the Attitude era, who have since grown out of the product. You really gonna tell me that's an idicator of the quality of product?

just going back to what sidious was talking about loyalty. Didn't say anything about it being an indicator of the quality of the wwe's product

Bit of maths... 1/2 kids + half hardcore fans = 1 whole crowd. Bit of common sense...kids can't attend WWE shows on their own, so they go with 1 or more adults. Kids see flashy toy spinner belt and John Cena merchandise, kid wants, adult gets, WWE pockets money. Good.

Your nickpicking at my comments so you can go on a rant never said it was bad for business.

God help us all if we have to wait til 60+ to reach our prime

Well, 1 i didnt say he just reached his prime, I said he may of passed it. I'm assuming you meant that you wish you were 60+ to exit our prime. if that is the case i continued by saying

Even if that is true it's not a bad thing the man had an excellent run that is incomparable.

I gave him all the credit in the world. Most people would wish they had the drive and passion vince does at that age. I once again think your taking things out of context so you can have something to rant about that makes you look like the smartest mark

The dudleyz did the wuzzzzzup at the height of its popularity, it became their signiture taunt, most people get the significance. I fail to see also why "Ballin'" is played out, people still use that phrase, refer themselves to ballers, "ballin" is a way of life that's still heavily portrayed in hip hop culture. MVP's gimmick is that of a flashy "baller" type athlete, so it makes sense. Plus, he always gets a good pop with it.

On countless shoot interviews and from what internet wrestling shows ive listened to have all agreed about this. For example Tommy Fierro's show just talked about this topic with his guests.

This is why he hires writers. If it was your company, you would ultimately want to give the final go ahead to any creative ideas as a major stakeholder in the business, because these decisions can impact on you greatly.

I have nothing against hiring writers. But the writers hired should have a passion for the business. Not some hack that couldnt make it in hollywood.

Not every match can be a Steamboat classic, the wrestlers should be working out their own matches themselves, guided by the time constraints put on them, eachothers styles and what needs to go on storylinewise.

Taking one name out of a list of guys i named. Didn't say anythign about every match being a steamboat classic. They have these great wrestling minds at their disposal, yet they aren't being used to their fullest extent. They should go back to the way things were about 10 years ago when they had their agents/ bookers set up the matches with the wrestlers. Also, wrestler do work the matches on there own but the reason forthe road agents/bookers is to guide them with the time constraints and storylines.

Wrestlers creative control worked really well for WCW.

No where did i say creative control. The creative control in WCW killed them bc they were able to say no to a job. Thats not what i said and not what I'm talking about. HHH, Steve Austin, and The Rock were originally stuck with lame gimmicks but when they were allowed to be themselves and put their take on their characters they became legends. Thats what I am talking about wrestlers being able to infuse a bit of their own personalities instead of being restrained by writers and having to stick to a script.



It's not really feesible to give an automatic push to someone who's redebuted into the company, having come from being a world champion in a weaker, competitors company and who's never been in the main event picture in the WWE. Christian will get his time, once he is ready for it.

Bill Goldberg WWE debut, Hulk Hogan WWE 2nd and third run, and Save us Jericho got pushed to a title match in his re debut are all people who got pushed right away. The WWE had a perfect set up with Jeff beaten in hall way for it to be Christian. Either way he should of been paired up with Edge either with him or against him, instead we got ECW.

JR needs to lighten up sometimes. Santina, pfft. That was nothing. Play the game, it's entertainment. The draft...well I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that JR acted highly unprofessional here. The whole colonoscopy thing was a big hard to watch, I'll give you that, but Vince was pissed with him leaving the company. The kissing the ass thing was one of the greatest and most unexpected heel turns seen on RAW for a while, great TV.


Wasn't talking about whether JR needs to lighten up or not I was talking about what the thread is about Audience of one and i was giving an example. Read and reply to things in the context to which they are given. The man toys with JR (Im not even a fan of JR) its been noted on the main site and the posters here, im not pulling this out of my ass.

I respect your opinion but it bothers me that you take things out of context and nickpick at things.

[d_henderson1810]

I was reading Mark Madden's latest column, which is usually a great read because I feel like he tells it like it is, and pulls no punches. A majority of his opinions directly reflect my very same opinions, as well.

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I like to tell it like it is, and pull no punches, either. And I see Mark Madden's columns to often be the work of a fat, bitter, ex-commentator who is pissed off he couldn't get a commentary job with either WWE or TNA, and has a vendetta against them for that, rather than admit that he isn't a commentator any more because he sucked when on WCW.
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Let's focus on the first part of the column ... which I pasted below, and then we'll address a few points in it.






I have heard the "Audience of One" philosophy emphasized over and over and over again over the years, and have certainly come to believe that this is exactly what is transpiring with today's product.

In essence, Vince puts himself in the mindset of being a wrestling fan and putting on TV what he feels like "he wants to see", and then instructs Stephanie and the writing team to give him exactly what he wants.

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I think that Vince having the mindset of a wrestling fan, and putting on TV what he feels "he wants to see" isn't always a bad thing.

Firstly, someone who has the mindset of a wrestling fan SHOULD be booking wrestling. The problem with Raw is that they hire too many soap opera and TV writers, but few who actually know about wrestling. I would rather a "wrestling fan", who knows something about it, however flawed, book wrestling, rather than someone who doesn't know a piledriver from a pile of bricks.

Also, Vince can't always get it wrong following this philosophy. I was convinced, leading up to WM, that the Undertaker would end up fighting either JBL, or Vladimar Kozlov, despite HBK being the logical opponent, because Vince likes "big men", and they were mentioning Kozlov being "undefeated" (which made me think that they were doing "Undefeated" Kozlov versus Taker's Undefeated Streak). But sanity prevailed, and HBK won the spot to fight Taker at WM25. Now, everyone wanted to see this, and Vince booked it, because he wanted to see it too. So, he gave the fans what they, and he , wanted.

Also, if Vince only booked for himself, and never for the fans, then how come the WWE is a multi-milllion dollar company? It would be broke if Vince never listened to the fans. When Vince books what both he and we want, what does it matter? The fans are happy, and if Vince is happy too, all the better (it increases the chances of what we want to have happen to actually happen). He gave us Hogan-Andre, and Austin v Vince, and I haven't heard any complaints. If Vince had such a hold over WWE, that his view is the only one that counts, then he wonuldn't have given us things that pleased the fans as well. So, give credit when him "booking as a fan" is right.
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Now, he is the Chairman, however is this Point of View not considered to be selfish? Imagine going back to everyone's days in High School, and you are working in a group. Now, you are supposed to be a team and coming up with ideas together, but one member of the group insists that "we are going to do things his way, and that's the end of the story."
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Every group must have a leader. Also, while everyone's contribution is important, someone must make the final decision, otherwise you have chaos. When different people on a team have different ideas, not everyone will get all of what they want all of the time.

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How can someone be so closed-minded and so arrogant to assume that "he is always right"? Because that is the philosophy Vince evidently has. That "he is always right, and that the fans are wrong" ... which Madden points out.




What happens when the judgment of this person begins to falter? And a large number of customers are unhappy with his particular vision? How can one simply tell himself that millions of fans are "wrong" and that "he is right" in this case?

Secondly, when low ratings or poor buyrates are produced, what are your thoughts on Vince McMahon giving static to the writing team and putting the blame on them, as opposed to himself?

Case and point with ECW's December to Dismember. Vince McMahon started his new WWECW as a toned down version of Paul Heyman's ECW. Gradually, he began to alter the image of ECW, by slowly transforming the show into a developmental show ... all the while telling Heyman exactly what he wanted.

Before the show, Heyman is not happy with the show that was written, whatsoever. He tells Vince several times that "the fans are going to throw this right back in our face". Vince, happy with the show's script, says "full steam ahead"

Show time occurs, and the show was extremely poorly received. And instead of Vince sucking up responsibility for the show, he places all of the blame on Paul Heyman, and sends him home, while relieving him of his responsibilities as a writer of ECW.

What are your thoughts on Vince McMahon and his concept of "accepting responsibility", with what he did to Heyman?


Raw has gone from a 4.1 rating, down to a 3.3 last week. This week, it is safe to assume it may be even lower.

I see a lot of Vince defenders on here say that "the problem is with us, the fans. We expect too much." However, is that really the case, or is Vince simply giving us a sub-par product, that fits his vision, and he simply does not care what anyone else thinks?

To those Vince defenders, I want to raise the suggestion that the reason so many people are upset is because perhaps Vince is only booking to please himself, and is not listening to his customers, whatsoever, in what they are telling him they want to see.


I still maintain the biggest problem with wrestling is Vince's elimination of the competition, and his refusal to replace the industry with product alternatives that his competitors offered. That killed the interest in wrestling, in my view. It isn't the fans, but rather poor judgment on the part of Vince. However, is he going to admit this? Absolutely not.
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This is what the "Audience of One" Philosophy has done to the product


He has no interesting characters left on the roster (he killed Orton's character)
He has removed any and all interesting and complex storylines
He has removed all edginess from the product, and offers no product alternatives.
He has failed to replace The Rock and Steve Austin's departures, with a star of their magnitude
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There are no stars of Austin or The Rock's magintude in wrestling at the moment. When Hulk Hogan left WWE, it took years before the WWE could promote a superstar of his magnitude (which turned out to be Austin). WWE tried Bret Hart, HBK and even Lex Luger in that role, but none of them had "it" like Hogan and Austin.

You can't blame WWE. It is just that there is no-one- NO-ONE- who can meet the excitement and "aura" that Austin had.

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He has removed the managers from the show
He has removed almost all emphasis on the Mid Card
He has destroyed the Tag Team Division
He has removed Face/Heel Commentary Teams and replaced them with Bland, Boring commentary teams.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

JBL and Mick Foley were terrific commentators, as is J.R. The commentators just seem bland because Jerry Lawler wants the fans to love him (and finds it hard to sound evil with a squeaky voice), and Michael Cole is completely hopeless, except for kissing Vince's ass.

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Anyway, what are your thoughts on all of that, and Vince's "Audience of One" philosophy?

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In the end, Vince took a small company, and turned it into a multi-million-dollar industry, now seen worldwide. He has to have doing something right.

If Vince didn't do what "he " wanted, we wouldn't have "Wrestlemania", "the Attitude Era" or anything else which has made money and entertained fans for over twenty years.

[only1soe]

I totally disagree when Mark Madden says, "WWE is for an audience of one." First let me mention that he was in the worst era of WCW and was one of the worst announcers I had ever heard. He was disgusting to listen to and watch. I realize Madden says he isnt going to lose weight, brush his teeth or get his teeth fixed to be on TV but pal you are on TV not radio. You want people to watch not turn away. I looked at WCW at that point and thought that they were just getting real sloppy looking.

WWE is not booked for an audience of one. Misery loves company that why a lot of folks like to jump on the band wagon with madden. I am not pleased with product but its not horrible.

Vince did something right to get wrestling as big as it is today. You can NEVER take that away from him and its the ultimate trump card. How horrible would the product be if every loud mouth announcer really had their say in Vince's product through out the years. It would likely be where WCW is today....DEAD!

[THE Madcap]

Firstly let me say, I'm not nitpicking at you or your post. I have no reason to do so, as you can probably tell I'm nopt a regular poster to the wrestling side, I only really chip in where I deem necessary, and your post brought a few things to my attention. My post was in no way a rant and I have no idea why I would want to look like a smark, I hate those guys with a passion, I have a lot more things to do with my time than have pointless debates on a wrestling forum, hence why I can mostly be found in the Bar Room. My main point was how the product is now catered to kids and as a form of entertainment. This in turn influences many different factors that have to be taken into consideration with the booking. Marketing towards kids, although many may not agree with, is a very clever way of making money as really you have 2 revenue streams, the tshirts, toys, belts, mysterio masks for the kids, tshirts, dvds, PPVs etc for the adults. Vince is all about the money and as a businessman, should be.

On countless shoot interviews and from what internet wrestling shows ive listened to have all agreed about this. For example Tommy Fierro's show just talked about this topic with his guests.

So basically the IWC thing this is out of date? It's a much bandied about fact that the IWC represent <10% of total wrestling fans, so Vince and the writing team shouldnt have to cater specifically for them. The wazzzzzup taunt still gets a pop, even in TNA, so all's good.

I have nothing against hiring writers. But the writers hired should have a passion for the business. Not some hack that couldnt make it in hollywood.

You're right, the writers should have have a passion for the business. But the landscape of the WWE has changed dramatically in the last 10-15 years, and the business is now about entertainment. Hence why entertainment writers "should" be a perfect fit. sadly they're not. I don't think the writers who could make it in Hollywood would piss on the WWE, if they were on fire.

Taking one name out of a list of guys i named. Didn't say anythign about every match being a steamboat classic.

I took one name out of the guys mentioned because I didn't feel the need to mention all 3. Lazy posting on my part I guess... Sorry.

They should go back to the way things were about 10 years ago when they had their agents/ bookers set up the matches with the wrestlers. Also, wrestler do work the matches on there own but the reason forthe road agents/bookers is to guide them with the time constraints and storylines.

Please note my point above about the landscape of the WWE.

No where did i say creative control.

You alluded to it with saying wrestlers should have control over their gimmicks

Thats not what i said and not what I'm talking about. HHH, Steve Austin, and The Rock were originally stuck with lame gimmicks but when they were allowed to be themselves and put their take on their characters they became legends. Thats what I am talking about wrestlers being able to infuse a bit of their own personalities instead of being restrained by writers and having to stick to a script.

This wasn't at a time where WWE made PG programming. When your product is being put out to kids, you gotta monitor/filter the content and the best way to do this is script everything. Sad as it may be, that's the way it has to be for them to stay out of the media blacklist.

Bill Goldberg WWE debut, Hulk Hogan WWE 2nd and third run, and Save us Jericho got pushed to a title match in his re debut are all people who got pushed right away. The WWE had a perfect set up with Jeff beaten in hall way for it to be Christian. Either way he should of been paired up with Edge either with him or against him, instead we got ECW.

You honestly can't compare Christian to Goldberg and Hogan?! They were massive draws and legitimate main eventers. Christian has yet to proove he is ready for the step up to WWE main event material, whilst Goldberg had dominated the WCW main event and likewise Hogan had with WWF and WCW. Jericho's return was so hyped up and anticipated that a title shot was needed to accompany the fanfare with his debut and justify the hype. The only hype christian's return got was the MEM giving him a funeral on iMPACT.

Mark Madden is a nobody IMO and I could care less for his opinion. Crap announcer who is now trying to get his name out there by badmouthing the WWE. Nobody cares Mark...

[SenorAmazing]

Vince has proven that he is not making the show just to his liking.

Vince never really liked the Hardys, in terms of pushing them higher up the card anyway. But he pushed Jeff to be WWE champion.

Now while this is true remember that Vince's selfishness is the thing that kept the title from Hardy in the first place. The only reason Vince gave him the title was because Jeff was the most over superstar and realized that people would start pillaging villages if Jeff didn't win the championship.

[Lord Sidious]

In the end, Vince took a small company, and turned it into a multi-million-dollar industry, now seen worldwide. He has to have doing something right.

If Vince didn't do what "he " wanted, we wouldn't have "Wrestlemania", "the Attitude Era" or anything else which has made money and entertained fans for over twenty years.


See, this is the biggest problem I have with Vince defenders. They are living in the past.

Sure, Vince did all of those things, and sure Vince deserves credit for all of it. However, that does not mean that an aging Vince McMahon is still the same Vince McMahon responsible for all those things.

As far as the Attitude Era, Vince McMahon had no idea where to take the company before that period. Only after listening to Vince Russo's proposals did he then follow suit, and enjoy the success that Era brought.

But people change, as they get older. You have to judge people's performances in the Here and Now, as opposed to beating a dead horse, and trying to justify someone's lackluster performance in the present by frequently citing what one did 10, 20, and 30 years ago.

I do not have this "blind loyalty" towards Vince McMahon, like others such as yourself, seem to have. The man has had more than his fair share of failures over time, as well, and is certainly not above criticism, just like everyone else.



But, you're wrong, which is the biggest problem you have.

Well, I don't think I am, Sly because the numbers don't lie. And if you stick up for today's product, and Vince offering one universal product, then I think you are the one who is wrong. But let's continue and we'll take it as we go.




Ratings may be lower now, but there are a TON of factors which play into that, and so criticizing on the base value of a rating, when you compare them to ratings of ten and fifteen years ago is silly.


Okay, it seems like the only way to back those with this mentality into a corner is to do this.

A rating is just a number, right? Ratings fluctuate depending on the audience. So let's do this.

1) True or False? The wrestling fanbase of today is larger than the wrestling fanbase of the Attitude Era?

2) True or False? The wrestling fanbase of today is larger than the wrestling fanbase of the Post-Attitude Era? (2001-2006)




As far as buyrates and attendance go, once again your information is skewed. Again, there are several factors to take in. For example, the WWE was actually making a LOT more money from PPVs in 2005 and 2006 than they were before. The overall buyrates may have been lower, but the money was higher because of higher PPV price. And as far as attendance goes, you said you downloaded that information I put together. Look it over. Your attendance theory doesn't hold water, especially when you factor higher ticket prices and slumping economy.


I think you are putting the cart before the horse with the "higher ticket price" argument. Why did Vince raise ticket prices, to begin with? Could it be because of declining attendance, and the fact he had to make up for the lost revenue?

Let's examine the average attendance over the years from the information you posted, as well as consider the number of events ran each year, and ticket prices, as well, and determine how that affected attendance:


Arena Attendance:


1998 7,339 218
1999 11,558 199
2000 12,136 206 $27
2001 11,793 212 $33
2002 8,439 237 $36
2003 5,551 327 $39
2004 5,006 329 $41
2005 4,975 325 $48
2006 4,990 248 $37
2007 6,600 232 $40
2008 6,400 242 $41



Objective Conclusions that can be drawn from this:


Generally speaking, the greater # of shows ran, with the highest avg ticket price, produces the lowest attendance: 2005


Generally speaking, the fewer # of shows ran, with the lowest avg ticket price, produces the highest attendance: 2000


Attendance has increased in the last two years, however I point to that being due to WWE reducing the travel schedule in North America by approximately 100 events per year, and thus not running as many shows in the same market each year.





What you consider crap, another person considers enjoyable. You can't impose your opinions as more important than anothers...especially when that other is paying for his entertainment.

As someone who has studied and followed the business for 2 decades, and has purchased 90% of the WWE PPV's from 1990 through 2006, yes I most definitely feel I do have that right, and have earned it. Don't make it sound like I haven't paid tons of money to this company, to earn my spot to critique it, as this company has made thousands and thousands of dollars from me.

However, if today's fans want to call the product I enjoyed "crap", which many do, then I feel I have the right to do the same. This is my opinion, and I am entitled to it, just as I feel you are entitled to yours.




That's called the law of supply and demand. You're a smart person, you know this.

It's called eliminating dead weight. Every company does it, especially the ones interested in making money.


None of that is rocket science. My point is that it is easy to manipulate profitability. Imagine if Vince tried to do those same cost-cutting measures back when he did have higher attendance and buys.



Are you kidding? How does he not listen to his audience? Why is John Cena the face of the company?


Because he busts his ass. He stays in the Main Event because he currently sells the most merchandise, and let's be frank ... Vince shoved him down everyone's throats. Vince kept the title on Cena for a year, despite him being the Most Unpopular Top Face in WWE history and was getting a very large amount of boos in arenas across the country.



Why did we have a DX reunion?


Certainly not because Vince was listening to the fans. Vince had DX glowsticks that needed to be sold. I certainly didn't hear fans demanding a DX reunion.



Why is Jeff Hardy in the main-event?

Because given the pending retirement of Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, and Batista, Vince is being forced to create new Main Event stars. It's pretty clear that Vince does not have a lot of faith in Jeff Hardy, given Hardy's track record ... thus he only gave him the title for a month.

Care to take wagers on whether or not Jeff is going to take the title from Edge at Judgment Day?



Why did RVD become a World Champion?

He won the titles essentially as a Bait and Switch on the part of McMahon and an investment into the ECW Brand. Vince obviously knew that RVD was essentially the face of the old ECW. He lured the fans in, and gave the title to the Big Show shortly thereafter.

Regarding his WWE Title win, how long did RVD have it for? Less than a month.

June 11, 2006 to July 3, 2006, where he lost it back to one of Vince's favorites. Edge. He won the title to get a good pop from the fans at One Night Stand, and as an investment into that Brand.

But the fact that he kept it for less than a month ... just like Jeff Hardy, only to lose it back to Edge (also like Jeff), speaks volumes.


....

Now as far as the ECW Championship win. He won it on June 13, 2006. Again, as an investment into the ECW Brand. He lost the title on July 4, 2006 to The Big Show.

Here, you have one of the most over performers on the roster, and his World Title Reigns were both for less than a month, ironically enough (sarcasm) when WWECW was just getting off the ground.



Why is Rey Mysterio still around?

Why wouldn't he be? Vince needs wrestlers, doesn't he?

Additionally, Rey brings in Hispanic viewers and sells masks on behalf of the company.

Why would Vince get rid of him if he makes money?



The fact of the matter is that Vince DOES listen to his audience. However, he doesn't listen to just one SEGMENT of his audience, which is what seems to bother you. Instead, he books for his ENTIRE audience...children, women, teens, young adults and older people.


Yes, and trying to tell older adults that they should like the exact same thing that a kid likes is unrealistic in the year 2009. Nobody is arguing that Vince still isn't making money. My argument is that he could make more money and bring in a larger base audience if he only replaced the programming alternatives he eliminated from his competition.

I am also not arguing to do away with PG programming. It has its place. But so does TV14 programming, in this business. And both draw substantially.


Here is an overview of who is watching WWE, taken right off the WWE Corporate site:



Demographics

* 86% are male
* Mean Age = 24 yrs old
* 36% are ages 12-17
* 58% are ages 18-49
* 40% are males 18-34
* 39% are non-white
* 62% of males 18-34 are full time employed
* 41% are student
* 78% have high speed connections



So my question, given that 58% of Vince's audience is aged 18-49 is, "Why are you not aggressively going after this audience, by tailoring a program to them?"

It is the interests of the 18-49 year olds that should be made the priority. Not the other way around.

Again, I am not saying that Vince should be ignoring Kids. Absolutely not. Quite the other way around. But the question is and where the disagreement in philosophy I have is "What is the strategy that should be executed, so that you can appeal to both kids and adults?"

If you want to appeal to both, then there are really 2 choices:


1) Use all of your television outlets to put out a generic product, not specifically geared towards any audience, and attempt to appeal to all audiences (what WWE is doing now)

OR

2) Use each of your television outlets to put out a variety of wrestling products (3), each designed to specifically target the key demos, with the intent on bringing in new fans and reclaiming some old ones, by specifically gearing your programming to their interests.


In other words:


A) Raw- geared towards older teens and adults (TV-14)
B) Smackdown- suitable for all ages (PG product)
C) ECW- niche brand with a theme, targeting more hardcore fans of wrestling. Either a hardcore product or a cruiserweight product.


Therefore, offering true programming alternatives specifically targeted to different audiences, with the sum of each of the shows audiences making up the total WWE Audience.

I have yet to hear a compelling reason why WWE needs to target the same audience on each of the 4 shows, and have them all watch those shows. For what purpose? Why not use those outlets, to target different demos by tailoring your programs to each of their interests, thereby duplicating the formula for success in the wrestling boom period?






He books for everyone, and tries to offer a little something that everyone can enjoy. And, it's a good business strategy.

If you look at WWE as one company, only having the capability of putting out one product, as it has in the past, then that strategy is up for discussion. However, as stated, kids are clearly not the majority of Vince's audience.

However, if you change the vision of how you look at WWE, which is what I think Vince needs to do ... and envision yourself as a global distributor of a VARIETY of wrestling products, then I feel this current strategy is poor. Because you are clearly not taking advantage of the full potential of each of your television outlets.

Those television shows could be used to create true, viable, separate Brand alternatives, unlike what we see today ... which at the end of the day, is still one universal product, simply with the main shows featuring different names.

What I am proposing is not rocket science and nothing that hasn't been done before. The only difference is that Vince would receive all the profits, this time, as opposed to dividing them between his competitors, Eric Bischoff and Paul Heyman.

Vince did McMahon's Million $ Giveaway for a reason. Clearly he knows he lost a large portion of his audience over the years, and tried to bring them back by essentially paying them off. That isn't going to work, though, as you aren't going to bring fans back and retain them by paying them off. Rather, you have to retain fans by offering them programming that suits their interests.


How does Vince not listen to his audience? Give me an example of him not listening to his audience.

Vince did not listen to his audience when he kept John Cena as champion for a year, when clearly the audience was overwhelmingly booing him during that time period.

Vince is not listening to the audience today, when there are a large number of complaints about the direction of the toned-down product. Jim Ross even acknowledged it in his column that there are a lot of complaints.

Vince did not listen to his audience when he re-invented ECW. One can not dispute that the interest was as high as it was because Vince led his fanbase to believe that he was bringing back the original ECW. The show's first rating was a 2.8 ... which is higher than Smackdown was then, and what Smackdown is today.

Vince did not listen to his audience when he made Bobby Lashley and The Big Show the faces for that particular Brand.

Vince does not listen to his fanbase when he essentially tries to tell them what to think, by having security audit the fan made signs that are brought into the arena.

Vince does not listen to his fanbase, by restricting Fan Favorites like Jeff Hardy and RVD (examples you used) to less than one month Title Reigns.

Vince did not listen to his fanbase when the overwhelming feedback to Randy Orton's psychotic character was positive, so he reversed course, and turned him into another run-of-the-mill heel.

Vince does not listen to his fanbase when they ask for more prominence to be placed on the Mid Card.

Vince does not listen to his fanbase when they ask for more Tag Teams and and a greater effort placed on the Tag Team Division.

Vince does not listen to his fans when they ask for more sexuality from the Divas, compared to what we've seen over the past couple years (for obvious reasons).

Vince did not listen to his fans, who wanted to see Cena vs Orton and Triple H vs Edge at Wrestlemania. When he caught wind of this, he gave the public two stale feuds that have been literally beaten into the ground over the years. That being Cena vs Edge and Triple H vs Orton.

I could go on and on.






Incredibly successful? Highly visible in main-stream media?

"HIGHLY" visible in Mainstream Media? Vince is regarded as a joke, in most Mainstream Media. He should receive more respect than he does, but let's be honest here. Vince is not HIGHLY visible in Mainstream Media.



Putting out theater movies?

That completely bomb and are regarded as jokes.


Providing a traveling entertainment show which is arguably the greatest company of entertainment in the history of the United States?


By who's standards? Yours? Greatest company of Entertainment in the HISTORY of the United States is a pretty tall claim. Which I think you will have difficulty supporting if you want to argue it as Fact, as opposed to simply your opinion. If I would go out in public and speak to 50 random people, and ask them "who is the Greatest Entertainment Company in the history of the United States", I seriously doubt WWE will be at the top of more than 2 people's lists, if anyone at all.



Is that the state you are referring to?


Yep.


The Attitude Era allowed him to survive temporarily. But where the Attitude Era kept him afloat and brought in much needed capital (albeit a lot of capital), the Attitude Era was targeted at ONE type of fan, and that was the 16-24 male demographic. But, as wrestling has proven to do time and again, it lost those fans between the ages of 21-25. And look what happened. On May 1 2000, we saw a cable rating of 7.4. On May 5, 2003, just three years later, Raw pulled a 3.5 rating. That's a drop of nearly FOUR RATINGS POINTS. That's ridiculous. And why did that happen? Because the WWE targeted only one audience, and they all left in those three years.


I completely agree that the loss of WWE fans during the Post Attitude Era was unacceptable. And it was because, as you said, Vince only targeted one audience, which I agree is a flawed strategy. This was also when Vince eliminated his competition, so the entire wrestling fanbase was stuck watching only WWE programming and only one product.

And the fact also during this time period was that the company's two most popular stars, Steve Austin and The Rock, were retiring .... and that WWE did not have another star groomed to take over at their level, also damaged the company heavily.

Vince eliminated his competition, however he never replaced the product alternatives that his competition offered, which was his single biggest mistake.




That's why you can't listen to just one segment of the audience, which what it seems you are looking for. You have to book for your WHOLE audience, and while some young males may piss and moan about a PG rating, the fact of the matter is that it stabilizes your company, cultivates a new audience, and puts more money in your coffers.

On the contrary, that is NOT what I am looking for.

Again, the question is in the Execution of HOW to appeal to each of those audiences. Vince took the wrong route, as far as I'm concerned, and again I point to ratings, buyrates, and attendance to support my opinions.



That's how you know McMahon doesn't book for one person. Because he offers such a large variety of wrestling, to appeal to his entire audience. Vince DOES listen to his audience.

Vince offers NO VARIETY to his wrestling products, as I have demonstrated above. It is ONE, universal product. Just different stars on different shows. And no, he does not listen to his audience, unless he is absolutely forced to.

[General Disarray]

[QUOTE=Lord Sidious;1060634]And you hit the nail on the head with the format being exactly the same every single God damn week. You feel like you are literally watching the same show every single, solitary week. All the shows look exactly the same, they follow the same format, same open, same bland commentary, same GM interference, GM then makes a match, then there is controversy in the main event .... it is basically the exact same show every single week, several times a week. Where the Hell is the variety? Furthermore, how can people not get sick and tired of watching the same show every single week?

This is just a ridiculous argument. How can you all of a sudden be saying that now when that has been the format for wrestling shows for years. When you think about it, there really isn't a ton you can do with matches and promos, and I think the WWE does the best they can to mix it up. Obviously, there are enought people watching it to keep WWE as a successful company.

I am asking this question very honestly and looking for honest answers and opinions. How do you not get sick and tired of watching the same show every week?

Once again, it is not the same show every week. I agree that I'm getting kind of tired on the Legacy beatdowns each week on Raw, but the storyline will play out soon enough and there will be something new. Furthermore, there is a multitude of other storylines and new stars that keep me, and a lot of others, watching.

And as far as others calling your bluff in telling you to tune out, glad to see you did. I did before, and I will again. It angers me because I've been a fan of his product for going on 2 decades, and this man has completely taken away almost everything I enjoyed about the product.

Really, has he taken everything away? You can't find anything good about the company? What exactly was it that they had 10 years ago that they don't have now?

The fact of the matter is, it is still wrestling, there are still great matches (HBK/Undertaker), there are still interesting stars and the WWE is putting out 6 hours of shows every week, not counting PPVs. There has to be something you like there

This is what the "Audience of One" Philosophy has done to the product

As I've said before, this doesn't exist

He has no interesting characters left on the roster (he killed Orton's character)

No intersting characters? Are you serious? You don't find even 1 wrestler in the WWE interesting today? What about Jericho, Cena, MVP, Jeff Hardy, Matt Hardy, Christian, hell, even Santino is interesting.

He has removed any and all interesting and complex storylines

Once again this is a ridiculous statement. You do not find any recent storyline intersting? What about HBK/Jericho, Taker/Edge, Swagger/Christian, Legacy/McMahons, Hardy Brothers, JBL/HBK. You didn't like any of those?

He has removed all edginess from the product, and offers no product alternatives.

Obviously, the product is different and caters to a younger audience nowadays, hence the PG rating. But what do you mean by alternatives? Do you want him to promote others companies like TNA, ROH, or MMA, because that doesn't make any sense.

He has failed to replace The Rock and Steve Austin's departures, and failed to create new and interesting characters

He is never going to replace those guys as they were one of a kind characters, and how can he be expected to do so? It sounds like just because a couple of your favorites are gone, that means that the WWE sucks. And you are just repeating yourslef with the "no interesting characters" argument.

He has removed the managers from the show

Tony Atlas, Natalya, Ranjin Singh are just a few that I can name of the top of my head. I agree that there may not be as many managers and they are not as prominent, but does that honestly completely ruin the wrestling experience for you? Personally, I don't think that it is a huge issue.

He has removed almost all emphasis on the Mid Card

As Sly stated earlier, his goal is to make money, and the main event makes money. Also, when was there ever such a huge "emphasis" on the midcard? It isn't like it is that terrible today either. In the last year, both CM Punk and Jeff Hardy were able to get over in the Mid Card and become World Champions, which I believe is the ultimate goal.

It isn't like they are totally ignoring the mid card. Did you watch Raw last week? The VIP Lounge/Tag Match was the best part of the show. Obviously the mid card isn't going to be featured as heavliy in the past because there no longer are brand exclusive PPV's, but I think you are selling Vince a little short on this one.

He has destroyed the Tag Team Division

I agree that the Tag Division has declined, but it once again goes back to the lack of brand exclusive PPVs and making money. Vince obviously knows the the tag division doesn't make money, so he doesn't focus on it as much. Simple economics. He also is more interested in breaking up tag teams once they get over to build singles stars, which is a good strategy.

He has removed Face/Heel Commentary Teams and replaced them with Bland, Boring commentary teams.

Once again, I agree with you that I prefer Face/Heel teams, but I don't think this is a huge issue. Matt Stryker is a great commentator, but he isn't totally heel. JR has been with the company for ever, but has he all of a sudden gone from interesting to bland? I think that while the commentary could use improving, it isn't a huge issue shouldn't be a reason to hate the WWE.

[only1soe]

I agree that vince is not the power house he once was, but my point eariler was that it was his vision that brought him to the dance. He can take the blame or credit for hiring the wrong or right person. He takes the credit and goes to the bank for listening to Russo during the attitude era but what has Russo become since?

This is a never ending market and the top dog and always be trashed talked. Vince and WWE will be on top for a long time. The only thing that may change that is some idiot taking over after Vince passes away. You want to start a topic on here? What happens to the WWE when vince is gone? How bad would it suck then.

[Slyfox696]

Well, I don't think I am, Sly because the numbers don't lie. And if you stick up for today's product, and Vince offering one universal product, then I think you are the one who is wrong. But let's continue and we'll take it as we go. I agree. The numbers don't lie. Which is why your argument is silly.

Okay, it seems like the only way to back those with this mentality into a corner is to do this.

A rating is just a number, right? Ratings fluctuate depending on the audience. So let's do this.

1) True or False? The wrestling fanbase of today is larger than the wrestling fanbase of the Attitude Era?

2) True or False? The wrestling fanbase of today is larger than the wrestling fanbase of the Post-Attitude Era? (2001-2006) You're making this too simple. No, the audience today is not as large as it was during the Attitude Era, no one will argue that. But the Attitude Era WASN'T a great long-term company direction, merely a great short term one. What sold the Attitude Era was sex and shock TV, not professional wrestling. And as I said before, those fans all left when the next fad hit, and the WWE's audience was cut in half.

I think you are putting the cart before the horse with the "higher ticket price" argument. Why did Vince raise ticket prices, to begin with? Could it be because of declining attendance, and the fact he had to make up for the lost revenue? LOL, no it's because of the laws of supply and demand. Have you never had an economics class? Vince looks for the very PEAK of the graph where he can make the most money. He raises ticket prices because he feels that while he may lose a view customers, the revenue brought in by the extra money per ticket will not only offset the price, but also still benefit the company.

Let's examine the average attendance over the years from the information you posted, as well as consider the number of events ran each year, and ticket prices, as well, and determine how that affected attendance:

Data went here


Objective Conclusions that can be drawn from this:


Generally speaking, the greater # of shows ran, with the highest avg ticket price, produces the lowest attendance: 2005


Generally speaking, the fewer # of shows ran, with the lowest avg ticket price, produces the highest attendance: 2000

Attendance has increased in the last two years, however I point to that being due to WWE reducing the travel schedule in North America by approximately 100 events per year, and thus not running as many shows in the same market each year. [/quote]I'm sure you feel like you're making a point here, but I'll be damned if I see what the hell you are talking about.

As someone who has studied and followed the business for 2 decades, and has purchased 90% of the WWE PPV's from 1990 through 2006, yes I most definitely feel I do have that right, and have earned it. Sorry, you don't. You're only one person, and just because something doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean the quality of it is any less.

You need to put your ego in check. It has no business in this conversation.

Don't make it sound like I haven't paid tons of money to this company, to earn my spot to critique it, as this company has made thousands and thousands of dollars from me.You don't have to pay money to critique it, that's silly. But when your critique flies in the face of popular opinion, then no one really gives a damn. As long as the WWE is highly successful, why do they give a fuck what you think?

However, if today's fans want to call the product I enjoyed "crap", which many do, then I feel I have the right to do the same. This is my opinion, and I am entitled to it, just as I feel you are entitled to yours. Great.

And if I, and many many others, feel like it is enjoyable, then trying to say that Vince only books for himself is a completely ludicrous idea, especially when the WWE does so well financially.

None of that is rocket science. My point is that it is easy to manipulate profitability. Imagine if Vince tried to do those same cost-cutting measures back when he did have higher attendance and buys. He did...what's your point?

Because he busts his ass. He stays in the Main Event because he currently sells the most merchandise, and let's be frank ... Vince shoved him down everyone's throats. Vince kept the title on Cena for a year, despite him being the Most Unpopular Top Face in WWE history and was getting a very large amount of boos in arenas across the country. LOL, you just don't get it do you?

John Cena doesn't stay in the main event because he was shoved down people's throats, he stays in the main-event because he is the most entertaining worker on the roster. Whether you buy a ticket to hate him or buy a ticket to cheer him, you are still buying a ticket to see him. And when people pay their ticket to see him, for him to entertain them (whether that be to cheer or boo), then Vince McMahon keeping him in the main-event IS giving the fans what they want.

It amazes me how you seem to struggle with the business side of wrestling so much.

Certainly not because Vince was listening to the fans. Vince had DX glowsticks that needed to be sold. I certainly didn't hear fans demanding a DX reunion. Then you didn't watch WM 22, and the incredible pops HBK and HHH got when they did the DX chops. And you did hear the "DX DX DX" chants on Raw for the month or two building up to the reunion.

Seriously Sidious, that's the best you got? That Vince had DX glowsticks from 10 years ago he wanted to sell, and that's why he put them back together? Are you really offering that completely unrealistic opinion?

Because given the pending retirement of Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, and Batista, Vince is being forced to create new Main Event stars. It's pretty clear that Vince does not have a lot of faith in Jeff Hardy, given Hardy's track record ... thus he only gave him the title for a month.

Care to take wagers on whether or not Jeff is going to take the title from Edge at Judgment Day?But why Jeff? Why not Chris Masters? Why not Kozlov? Why not Nick Dinsmore? Why not Chris Harris?

Because the fans want Jeff Hardy, not any of those other guys. And by putting Hardy in the main-event, he's giving the fans what they want.

He won the titles essentially as a Bait and Switch on the part of McMahon and an investment into the ECW Brand. Vince obviously knew that RVD was essentially the face of the old ECW. He lured the fans in, and gave the title to the Big Show shortly thereafter.

Regarding his WWE Title win, how long did RVD have it for? Less than a month.

June 11, 2006 to July 3, 2006, where he lost it back to one of Vince's favorites. Edge. He won the title to get a good pop from the fans at One Night Stand, and as an investment into that Brand.

But the fact that he kept it for less than a month ... just like Jeff Hardy, only to lose it back to Edge (also like Jeff), speaks volumes.
:lmao: :lmao:

You can't honestly be this ignorant. RVD didn't lose the titles because it was a "bait and switch", he lost them because he got busted pot and drug paraphernalia. Everybody knows that, and I feel kind of insulted that you would pass that bullshit off as an argument.

RVD, by ALL accounts, from dirtsheet writers to people from actually in the WWE, was going to be a long-term ECW champion. RVD fucked that up, not a bait and switch by McMahon.

Here, you have one of the most over performers on the roster, and his World Title Reigns were both for less than a month, ironically enough (sarcasm) when WWECW was just getting off the ground.Yeah, good point. That's what the WWE needed less than a year after Eddie Guerrero's death and in the midst of a probe from Congress, due to a lack of drug testing...a guy who gets busted for drugs.

Yes, THAT would have gone over well in mainstream media and in front of Congress. Honestly Sidious, if you're going to keep babbling bullshit to these levels of ridiculousness, you can consider this the last post I make on this subject.

Get real. You're better than this.

Why wouldn't he be? Vince needs wrestlers, doesn't he?

Additionally, Rey brings in Hispanic viewers and sells masks on behalf of the company.

Why would Vince get rid of him if he makes money?Umm...exactly??

That's my whole point. People want to watch Rey Mysterio, especially children and Hispanic viewers, so Vince books him high on the card, to give people a reason to watch his shows.

At this point, do you even know what your point is? Because you keep making mine.

Yes, and trying to tell older adults that they should like the exact same thing that a kid likes is unrealistic in the year 2009.Yes, because kids generally like the idea of a heavily tattooed man physically assaulting a woman and kissing her in front of her husband. Children using get real involved with that. :rolleyes:

Here is an overview of who is watching WWE, taken right off the WWE Corporate site:

So my question, given that 58% of Vince's audience is aged 18-49 is, "Why are you not aggressively going after this audience, by tailoring a program to them?"[/quote]Why do that when those people are already watching?

That's what I said earlier. Those fans are HOOKED. They are going to watch wrestling, no matter what. However, the WWE is building a NEW audience. You hook them when they are young, and continue to build your audience that way. Pretty certain I already said this.

It is the interests of the 18-49 year olds that should be made the priority. Not the other way around.They are a priority. Just like fans of women wrestlers are a priority, Hispanics are a priority, blacks are a priority, children are a priority, women are a priority, the people of India are a priority....

As I said before, the most you post, the more you keep proving MY argument.

I have yet to hear a compelling reason why WWE needs to target the same audience on each of the 4 shows, and have them all watch those shows. For what purpose? Why not use those outlets, to target different demos by tailoring your programs to each of their interests, thereby duplicating the formula for success in the wrestling boom period?Because it kills your live event attendance, and can hurt your overall business.

Let's say Smackdown comes to my hometown. Who's going to go? Not the older fans, because they don't watch Smackdown. But...then who's left, because the younger audience can't go on their own. Or, maybe Raw comes to my hometown...you think you can get 8000 18-49 year olds to come to a wrestling show? Good luck.

And let's discuss PPVs. PPV time comes up...I'm a fan of the ECW brand. Am I going to pay $40 to watch a show with only two matches that I'm interested? Of course not.

Trying to separate the shows like that is completely foolhardy. Why would you want to kill your own audience by splitting them into different shows? That's stupid.

Vince did not listen to his audience when he kept John Cena as champion for a year, when clearly the audience was overwhelmingly booing him during that time period.Sure he did. The problem is the audience is too stupid to realize it.

Yeah, Cena got heavy boos for a year or so...and at the same time, ratings climbed, PPV buys climbed, merchandise monies climbed, and live event attendance climbed.

But fans don't get that. They think because they bought their ticket to boo Cena, then obviously Vince didn't listen to them. But he DID listen to them...by putting Cena out there every night, he ensured more and more people would buy tickets to come watch him perform.

You have to be able to look at the big picture. And you really seem to be struggling with that right now.

Vince is not listening to the audience today, when there are a large number of complaints about the direction of the toned-down product. Jim Ross even acknowledged it in his column that there are a lot of complaints. And as people complain, the money keeps rolling in.

Vince did not listen to his audience when he made Bobby Lashley and The Big Show the faces for that particular Brand.He didn't? If you go back and look, I bet you'll see that ratings only start to REALLY drop when Lashley and Big Show LEFT ECW. Go ahead, and look.

Vince does not listen to his fanbase when he essentially tries to tell them what to think, by having security audit the fan made signs that are brought into the arena. Signs that ruin the show for other people don't deserve to be there.

Vince did not listen to his fanbase when the overwhelming feedback to Randy Orton's psychotic character was positive, so he reversed course, and turned him into another run-of-the-mill heel.A "run of the mill heel"? Are you fucking kidding me? Orton is THE top heel in the company, no question. The guy gets mega heel heat.

What was Vince supposed to do? Allow Orton to go face, and then have NO ONE to feud him with? When will people learn that wrestling sells based on Face vs. Heel, Good vs. Evil?

Vince does not listen to his fanbase when they ask for more prominence to be placed on the Mid Card.LOL!!!

When has this happened? When has any fan said, "No, I don't want Cena, HBK, Jericho, Orton and Edge to wrestle on my house show, I want Snitsky and Primo Colon!"?

When did that happen? That's ludicrous. Main-event is what sells, not the midcard, no matter how much the IWC bitches about it.

Vince does not listen to his fanbase when they ask for more Tag Teams and and a greater effort placed on the Tag Team Division.Because the fanbase DOESN'T ask for that. How do I know this? Because Tag Team wrestling DOESN'T SELL! You use 15 people bitching about it on a wrestling forums to say that an entire fanbase complain about it. But, the overwhelming majority don't give a damn about Tag Team wrestling, never have.

Tag Team wrestling has NEVER sold regularly. Tag Team wrestling was used to give guys experience and exposure to the audience, that's it. But now, with 6 hours of TV programming a week, why bother with Tag Teams when it is the Singles Superstars that sell shows?

Vince does not listen to his fans when they ask for more sexuality from the Divas, compared to what we've seen over the past couple years (for obvious reasons).LOL again! Seriously, this list is piss bucket.

How much more sexuality is possible? The only thing that we HAVEN'T seen from professional wrestling is full-out hardcore porn.

Vince did not listen to his fans, who wanted to see Cena vs Orton and Triple H vs Edge at Wrestlemania.Umm..what? Who the fuck said that? 3 people on the Internet?

I could go on and on.I would just like you to make one valid point.

"HIGHLY" visible in Mainstream Media? Vince is regarded as a joke, in most Mainstream Media. He should receive more respect than he does, but let's be honest here. Vince is not HIGHLY visible in Mainstream Media.Bullshit.

His wrestlers appear on talk shows, in advertisements and in movies (even ones that he doesn't own). Anytime there's a fight that breaks out, commentators also reference the WWE. The Benoit thing was front page on ESPN.com, Colin Cowherd references Vince McMahon on a semi-regular basis, and there are very few people who DON'T know what the WWE and Vince McMahon is.

That completely bomb and are regarded as jokes.And are still purchased by theaters to be shown on screens.

By who's standards? Yours? Greatest company of Entertainment in the HISTORY of the United States is a pretty tall claim. Which I think you will have difficulty supporting if you want to argue it as Fact, as opposed to simply your opinion. If I would go out in public and speak to 50 random people, and ask them "who is the Greatest Entertainment Company in the history of the United States", I seriously doubt WWE will be at the top of more than 2 people's lists, if anyone at all.
Find me another entertainment company that has 6 hours of ORIGINAL programming on TV every week, can entice people to pay $40 to watch a show every month which really isn't much different than what they get on free TV, and can still take their show on the road with live events that regularly draw 6500 people.

I would love to see the entertainment company which services as many in the US and around the world, and does it as often as the WWE does, with completely original shows every single night.


Find me an entertainment company that can do what the WWE does, and then maybe we can discuss my statement.

On the contrary, that is NOT what I am looking for.

Again, the question is in the Execution of HOW to appeal to each of those audiences. Vince took the wrong route, as far as I'm concerned, and again I point to ratings, buyrates, and attendance to support my opinions.False.

Your original contention was that Vince books his shows for an Audience of One, which was for his own amusement. Now you are trying to say that not only is that not true, but he does book for a large variety of audiences...you just disagree with the manner that he chose to do it.

Like I've said a few times already, you have completely lost sight of your argument, and the more you post, the more you prove your original stance, that Vince only books for his own amusement, completely false.

I'm actually disappointed in you Sidious. I thought you'd do a better job of debating than this. But over the course of only two posts, you have completely proved you own original contention false, and have come over to agree with me.

[Lord Sidious]

I agree. The numbers don't lie. Which is why your argument is silly.

First of all, before we continue, spare me your pompous, arrogant tone in your post, Sly. Spare me, "the more you post, the more you prove my point" and "I thought you understood this was a business" bullshit. And spare me the "I'm disappointed in you, Sidious."

I respect you as a poster, a Mod, and as a person .... but the tone of that post is completely insulting and disrespectful. I feel like I try to make points and back up my points, whether you agree or not. But when you disagree, you include insults and put downs in your post. If I don't insult you, which I don't feel I did at any time (correct me if I'm wrong, as I only felt we were debating points), then could I ask you the courtesy not to attempt to insult me?

All too many Moderators on Wrestling Forums have this "I'm a Mod. I am God. My opinion is God. I expect you to respect me, but I don't have to respect you back, because I'm a Mod" arrogant approach to Moderating. I thought you would be above that kind of thing. But you proved me wrong.



You're making this too simple. No, the audience today is not as large as it was during the Attitude Era, no one will argue that. But the Attitude Era WASN'T a great long-term company direction, merely a great short term one.


No, I'm not making this "too simple". You are the one who is making this "too complicated".


What sold the Attitude Era was sex and shock TV, not professional wrestling.


And what's wrong with that? Why eliminate that style of programming altogether, from the fans who want to see it? The answer is not changing the content of all of your programs. Rather, the answer is still offering a program reflecting that style of programming, but then offering Family-Style programming, like WCW offered ... and Niche-based programming like ECW offered.

If the wrestling industry was at its peak when all 3 companies were in existence, and all were relatively successful .... why would you not duplicate that same formula?

Vince has sent half of his audience away because he did not have a replacement for Austin and The Rock to take over. Cena wasn't ready yet, and when he finally was, and they were grooming him as the lone rapper ... then they take that away from him ... removed the only thing compelling about his character, shoved him down the throats of WWE fans .... and hence the fans turned on him ... and eventually turned on WWE as well ... and bolted.




And as I said before, those fans all left when the next fad hit, and the WWE's audience was cut in half.


The fans left because The Rock and Steve Austin left ... who were two of the most popular stars in WWE history ... and Vince closing down all of his competition, while not offering them product alternatives to give the viewers a choice to turn to, in case they got bored by WWE programming. Vince took away those choices, and never bothered replacing them.



LOL, no it's because of the laws of supply and demand. Have you never had an economics class?

Don't insult me. Yes, I have taken an Economics class.

The problem is that Vince helped remove the demand from the customers.


Vince looks for the very PEAK of the graph where he can make the most money. He raises ticket prices because he feels that while he may lose a view customers, the revenue brought in by the extra money per ticket will not only offset the price, but also still benefit the company.


Actually, if you examined the WWE's bread and butter ... the PPV data, he is not making as much money in PPV's today, even with the increased price and lost customers, as he was making when the price point was $34.95 and there were more customers.

Again, Vince essentially told his customers to "Go Away" without having another superstar to take over for The Rock and Steve Austin. Triple H by himself wasn't cutting it, and never will. Edge by himself wasn't cutting it and never will. John Cena isn't cutting it. And I think he has reached his peak as far as being a draw.

And he is still telling his customers to "Go Away" today, by only offering the one universal product.

Will he continue to get by okay? Sure. He just isn't bringing in the numbers he could be doing, if he adopted a different strategy to attract fans who spend money.



Sorry, you don't. You're only one person, and just because something doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean the quality of it is any less.

I do have the right to my opinion, and being a fan of the product for 2 decades, yes I have the right to my opinion, just as much as anyone else. You don't like or want to respect my opinions, then put me on "Ignore".



You need to put your ego in check. It has no business in this conversation.

The only one I've seen with an Ego and Arrogant tone here is you, to be honest. I don't feel I am being nasty, but rather simply stating my opinions and supporting those opinions. Your post, however, has an extremely nasty and spiteful tone to it.



You don't have to pay money to critique it, that's silly. But when your critique flies in the face of popular opinion, then no one really gives a damn. As long as the WWE is highly successful, why do they give a fuck what you think?

Well, WWE is successful. I wouldn't call it "highly successful", but they are successful. Vince didn't seem too pleased with his company's performance at the Shareholder's meeting, and nor did some of his shareholders who spoke.

Now, as far as "no one really gives a Fuck about what fans think". That much is pretty evident, and actually points to my post about the "Audience of One". And just a side note, don't make me out to be the one who created that Philosophy. "The Audience of One" claim has been around for about 2 years now and apparently former Writers and those who work in the business agree with it. You can have a disagreement with the Wrestlezone Reporters, however that story about Vince having this mentality was reported right here on the site.



Great.

And if I, and many many others, feel like it is enjoyable, then trying to say that Vince only books for himself is a completely ludicrous idea, especially when the WWE does so well financially.

Vince isn't doing as rosy financially as you may want to badly believe he is doing. He is no where near a Billionaire anymore, like he once was, when he offered great programming.

That's another interesting point.

You want to claim WWE is so successful. But now, it was most recently reported that Vince's own Net Wealth from his 60% of Company Stock puts him at approximately $600 Million. Do you want to blame that 100% on the economy, or bad business decisions?

If Vince is doing so well financially, like you want to claim, he should still be relatively close to being a Billionaire still, shouldn't he?



He did...what's your point?

My point in Manipulating numbers is that you want to solely point to profitability as proof positive and justification that WWE is on the right track. My point of view is that his current strategy is doing long-term damage to the business by driving fans away, who would otherwise be paying money if they had programming that still matched their interests.

Well, what if we manipulated some numbers back in the Attitude and Post Attitude Eras? What if we did some additional cost-cutting, raised a few more ticket prices, PPV Prices, etc.? Then, we would have blown the company's profitability through the roof during those times, as well.

Just because one is "profitable today", does not necessarily mean that a good long term strategy is in place and that damage isn't being done to the business.

I have never seen as many upset fans at the product since the IWC was formed, than today.


LOL, you just don't get it do you?

Watch the nastiness. Uncalled for.



John Cena doesn't stay in the main event because he was shoved down people's throats, he stays in the main-event because he is the most entertaining worker on the roster.

I don't think I ever denied that he was entertaining. However, he got to the position he did by being shoved down people's throats.

He was over fine as the Rapper, and I thought was over Great with the audience. So, they took the Rap Gimmick away, and gave him this bland one ... combined with a monster push in which he was "shoved down people's throats" (because Vince had no other stars) ... and essentially Cena became the most unpopular Top company babyface in WWE history.



Whether you buy a ticket to hate him or buy a ticket to cheer him, you are still buying a ticket to see him. And when people pay their ticket to see him, for him to entertain them (whether that be to cheer or boo), then Vince McMahon keeping him in the main-event IS giving the fans what they want.

Who says that today's fans are paying to see John Cena, and not the WWE product, as a whole? I don't think fans are paying just to see John Cena, like you may want to believe.


It amazes me how you seem to struggle with the business side of wrestling so much.


LOL. I'm not struggling.

If the company is profitable, but is still putting out a shitty product, then they are going to be called on it. I am not going to come on here and ONLY look at the product from a profitability standpoint.

In other words, if the company is putting out a very sub-par product, but still doing okay financially ... I am not going to give my opinion that "creatively-speaking, I find the product to be good", when I don't.

The fact of the matter is that only by raising PPV prices, Merchandise Prices, and ticket prices, is WWE doing as well as it is. That is a fact.

And truly, if the company can put out a shitty product, and the fans still want to give the company money ... but complain about it .... then more power to WWE.

I, on the other hand, have paid enough money over the years, and will complain about the product, as long as I don't find it enjoyable. The bottom line is that I am still a fan of the wrestling business, and the WWE during certain periods ... however I am not in the least impressed with today's product, whatsoever.



Seriously Sidious, that's the best you got? That Vince had DX glowsticks from 10 years ago he wanted to sell, and that's why he put them back together? Are you really offering that completely unrealistic opinion?

I heard of zero fans demanding a return of DX, back then. None. So your argument that "Vince listened to the fans, because they were demanding a return of DX" is unfounded.

Vince put DX together to sell merchandise (hence why there were so many promos of them on TV pushing their merchandise ... that they had to clear out from the warehouse), and because perhaps from a Creative standpoint, he wanted to put them together on TV again. That had zero to do with fan input.


But why Jeff? Why not Chris Masters? Why not Kozlov? Why not Nick Dinsmore? Why not Chris Harris?

Because, Vince is not as impressed with Masters, Kozlov, Dinsmore, and Harris. Dinsmore was the only remotely decent wrestler out of those 3. Vince pushed him. Got what he could out of him, and called it quits.

But you didn't address my point. If the fans wanted to see Jeff Hardy get a push, and he was getting great cheers, why did Vince give him a title reign of less than a month ... if he always "listens to the fans"?



Because the fans want Jeff Hardy, not any of those other guys. And by putting Hardy in the main-event, he's giving the fans what they want.

Again, the fans spoke that they wanted Jeff Hardy. So how does Vince reward them? By giving Jeff less than a one month title reign. Until he decided to give the title back to Edge, once again. Was that what the fans wanted to see, Sly?



Because it kills your live event attendance, and can hurt your overall business.


No, sir. History has proven that when the competition was eliminated and those very same product alternatives were eliminated ... that this is actually what hurt the overall business.

Plus, by reaching out and targeting more viewers by offering them more programming alternatives, I fail to see how that is "killing your live attendance". I thought WWE and WCW co-existed quite well. And I am willing to be that fans were attending both shows, as well. Same mentality applies here.



Let's say Smackdown comes to my hometown. Who's going to go? Not the older fans, because they don't watch Smackdown. But...then who's left, because the younger audience can't go on their own. Or, maybe Raw comes to my hometown...you think you can get 8000 18-49 year olds to come to a wrestling show? Good luck.


And let's discuss PPVs. PPV time comes up...I'm a fan of the ECW brand. Am I going to pay $40 to watch a show with only two matches that I'm interested? Of course not.

Your argument is 100% invalid. Why? Very simple. Because this experiment was already done before and it was called WWF, WCW, and ECW ... which all co-existed at the exact same time, and all of which did well. Heyman didn't have the degree of financial exposure that Vince or Bischoff did, but he did very well with what he had and had a good run.

As far as ECW goes, thinking in terms of the ECW today, no ... nobody would pay to see that show on PPV by itself. However, I would attempt to get that Brand standing on its own as either a Hardcore or Cruiserweight product. If that wouldn't be a large enough draw as a PPV standing on its own, the matches would be incorporated into the Raw and Smackdown PPV shows.



Trying to separate the shows like that is completely foolhardy. Why would you want to kill your own audience by splitting them into different shows? That's stupid.

I'm not sure if that's stupid or someone has a comprehension problem.

You aren't "splitting the audience". You are actually going out and attracting a larger audience for each of the shows, and gaining viewers.

Furthermore, you are expecting there to be a lot of viewers who will still watch not just one, but two or three shows. For example, a 37 year old adult with a child watches Raw on Monday by himself. On Friday night, he also watches Smackdown with his child.





Sure he did. The problem is the audience is too stupid to realize it.


Ah, so it's the audience's fault. I think I see how it works with you. It's never Vince's fault. You come off as a blind, loyalist Vince mark. Vince is always right and the Audience is always wrong. Pompous attitude if there ever was one.

Again, point shown that Vince did not listen to the audience.




When did that happen? That's ludicrous. Main-event is what sells, not the midcard, no matter how much the IWC bitches about it.

Well, if the Main Event does not sell, you need a strong Mid-Card to make up for it, and therefore must offer other alternatives to keep the customers happy.

Keep in mind that during the WWE's most successful period in the Attitude Era, the Mid Card was at one of it's peaks. Because Russo gave virtually everyone a storyline to be involved in ... which kept viewers interested.

If you had a stale main event, at least there were other interesting mid card matches and tag team matches going on.

WWE can not say the same today. If nobody is interested in the Main Event, then they are shit out of luck, since there is basically no emphasis on the mid card, at all. And that's a shame. Because WWE is the one responsible for telling their fans that the Midcard doesn't mean a God damn thing. And like a good little zombie, you get the mindless dribble shoved right down your throat.



Because the fanbase DOESN'T ask for that. How do I know this? Because Tag Team wrestling DOESN'T SELL! You use 15 people bitching about it on a wrestling forums to say that an entire fanbase complain about it. But, the overwhelming majority don't give a damn about Tag Team wrestling, never have.

So the Mid Card doesn't sell. And Tag Teams don't sell. That's funny, because for many, many years I always thought it was the entire product together, as a whole, that sold the audience and helped build interest in the overall package. But today, that apparently is not the case.

So, if Tag Teams and the Mid Card does not sell, then why don't we do away with Tag Teams, altogether? Let's just take the next step and completely do away with them, since they are essentially useless ... and there apparently would be no harm in doing so, since they don't matter?

Furthermore, why don't we take this approach with the Midcard from now on. Let's book Judgment Day with that philosophy in mind.


Since Tag Teams and the Midcard does not matter, here is the card:



Batista vs Randy Orton
Edge vs Jeff Hardy
Kung Fu Naki vs Jamie Noble
Goldust vs Brooklyn Brawler
Ricky Ortiz vs Zack Ryder
Santina Marella vs Rosa Mendez
Hacksaw Jim Duggan vs Chavo Guerrero
Jesse vs Dolph Ziggler



Let's see how well that show sells, since the rest of the card "doesn't matter".



Tag Team wrestling has NEVER sold regularly. Tag Team wrestling was used to give guys experience and exposure to the audience, that's it. But now, with 6 hours of TV programming a week, why bother with Tag Teams when it is the Singles Superstars that sell shows?

Again, you dodged the argument.

I see fans all over the Net demanding a resurgence of Tag Team wrestling, and Vince won't give it to them. And even Jim Ross in his column acknowledged fans asking for a resurgence of the Tag Team Division. So it has to be somewhat significant.

Another example of Vince not listening to his audience.

The fact that you now have 6 hours of programming is certainly not an argument in favor of doing away with it. Rather, it is an argument even more so IN FAVOR of it. Because of variety.

Didn't you claim that WWE offers "tremendous variety"? I say that this claim of yours is complete, 100% Bullshit. And in this case, there is very little variety even in the matches.




LOL again! Seriously, this list is piss bucket.

Pretty much what I think of your attitude.



How much more sexuality is possible? The only thing that we HAVEN'T seen from professional wrestling is full-out hardcore porn.

Dodging the point made. The WWE's primary Demo is 18-49 year old Men. Do you think this group wants to see more sensuality from the Divas or Less sensuality? Do you think this group wants to see the Divas in Playboy, or are they saying "No, I don't want to see Kelly Kelly or Melina in Playboy?"

Vince is not listening to the audience. You wanted ONE example. You got several.


I would just like you to make one valid point.


I've already made several. Poke your head in the sand as long as you like, though.



His wrestlers appear on talk shows, in advertisements and in movies (even ones that he doesn't own). Anytime there's a fight that breaks out, commentators also reference the WWE. The Benoit thing was front page on ESPN.com, Colin Cowherd references Vince McMahon on a semi-regular basis, and there are very few people who DON'T know what the WWE and Vince McMahon is.

How much positive coverage and respect do you see the WWE receive, compared to actors, actresses, and sports franchises like the NFL, MLB, NBA, and UFC.

Commercials? What commercials? The one Mach 3 commercial played over and over and over again on WWE TV?

The Benoit thing? Did that get positive coverage and present the business in a positive light? Or was the coverage overwhelmingly Negative and Present the business in a Negative Light? Anytime the WWE can be bashed at the first instance of a story, it will be done.

Positive coverage? Not so much.

Vince does not have the respect of a clear, overwhelming majority of the Entertainment Industry.

And are still purchased by theaters to be shown on screens.

Doesn't mean it is successful and isn't regarded as a laughingstock in the industry.



Find me another entertainment company that has 6 hours of ORIGINAL programming on TV every week, can entice people to pay $40 to watch a show every month which really isn't much different than what they get on free TV, and can still take their show on the road with live events that regularly draw 6500 people.

I would love to see the entertainment company which services as many in the US and around the world, and does it as often as the WWE does, with completely original shows every single night.


Put on Original Programming each week? Well, I guess that is a topic for discussion, because when I do tune in, I feel like I am watching the exact same show every single week. So what good is bragging about "original programming" if you put very little effort into it, and the product becomes bland and stale? Which from many accounts, it is today?

Every entertainment market is different. Different operations. Different methods of obtaining revenue. Different ways to streamline expenses. No one industry is going to be exactly alike.

It seems like what you are looking for is for someone to simply say "I respect the wrestling business and what Vince does." Forgive me for saying so, but this is the mentality of a Vince mark. And any deviation, other than blind loyalty to the product at all times, you take exception to. And I find so many blind-loyalist fans like this online, it isn't even funny.

However, your claim that WWE is the Most Successful Entertainment Company in the history of Entertainment is erroneous. And you know that. Hence, of course, why you had to add on the part where "they produce 6 hours of original programming each week, $40 PPV's each month, etc."


Find me an entertainment company that can do what the WWE does, and then maybe we can discuss my statement.

There aren't too many "wrestling companies" around these days. I would have had less a problem if you stated "wrestling company", but since you want to argue that the WWE is "the most successful Entertainment Company in history", and you wanted to be the one to make the boastful claim, I want to see how you justify your opinion as it being the "most successful".

I want to see a side by side comparison of WWE's numbers, and the numbers of other Entertainment Companies such as UFC, top Movie Studios, places like Disney and Universal Studios, and others ... and support your original claim that WWE is the Most Successful Entertainment Company in history.



Your original contention was that Vince books his shows for an Audience of One, which was for his own amusement. Now you are trying to say that not only is that not true, but he does book for a large variety of audiences...you just disagree with the manner that he chose to do it.


My contention is that Vince puts out a product that is suitable for all audiences. However, what I feel he does, as I elaborated on earlier, is that he puts himself in the mindset of a fan, and he goes from there. When he goes to write Raw, he tells himself "I am a fan of PG Television. And here is what I want to see." Then, he takes it from there. Vince, is the fan. And as long as his product does remotely well, then he feels he is justified.

He is not truly concerned about any potential negative feedback, until he sees his numbers drastically slip and is forced to make changes.


Below I have posted Paul Heyman's Column where the Audience of One Philosophy was reported on.

Paul Heyman sat on the Creative Team, and ran a wrestling company himself, so I respect his opinion. Give it a read.



http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/wrestling/heyman/article1710982.ece


After you are done, since you like insulting people and debating so much, what I challenge you to do Sly is comprise a rebuttal, post it here so we can see it, and then send it over to Paul Heyman as well as Mark Madden ... since you obviously don't respect their opinions. Because both of them testify to it.

Essentially, what you have done is called their claims to this bullshit, so I want to see you debate them on this, tell them how wrong they are, and we'll see what happens, Big Man.


Like I've said a few times already, you have completely lost sight of your argument, and the more you post, the more you prove your original stance, that Vince only books for his own amusement, completely false.

I never stated that Vince "only books for his own amusement". I stated that based on reports that I believe are legitimate based on what I see on my TV screen, that "Vince books for the Audience of One". He puts himself in the mindset of being a wrestling fan, and goes from there. He gives pushes to people who he wants to give pushes to and who he feels deserves them. He gives titles to his favorites "John Cena, Edge, and Triple H", and he knows his base is going to buy no matter what. Again, good for him.

As I said earlier, if he can put shit on TV, lose fans, raise prices to make up for the lost fans by relying on his base (who buys no matter what), then more power to him.

I only hope the product continues down the path it currently is. I consider it somewhat of an experiment. Because I want to see what the threshold is for a couple things. Those being

1) how long Vince's base will tolerate mediocrity
2) what Vince's threshold is in how many fans he has to lose, before he finally concedes and makes changes.

BTW, ECW scored it's first rating below a 1.0 this week, as you probably noticed was reported.

Yep. WWE is doing a great job keeping those fans interested. As I said, I only hope this downward spiral continues across the board, because the more it does, the more it proves you wrong.



I'm actually disappointed in you Sidious. I thought you'd do a better job of debating than this. But over the course of only two posts, you have completely proved you own original contention false, and have come over to agree with me.

I'm actually more disappointed in your juvenile attitude as a poster and Moderator, in someone who is supposed to set the example, more than anything else from your post.

For the record, no you didn't make your case with me. Wrestlezone itself has reported that its sources within WWE have testified to the "Audience of One" philosophy that Vince has. So if you want to dispute the validity of a story that was reported on this very site, then feel free to do so.

Also, I anxiously await your rebuttals to both Paul Heyman's article listed above and Mark Madden's latest column. Don't forget to post the articles on here.

...........

One other thing. As far as I'm concerned, this little "debate" is over. I have no desire to interact with people who are rude and disrespectful on forums. I have been baited before elsewhere, and have been warned for taking the bait, and I am not going to do so again.

I felt like I treated you with respect in my original posts to you, however you responded like an egotistical, pompous, arrogant prick. Feel free to respond if it makes you feel big, but I have no desire to interact with you in the future, after your last post.

[Lord Sidious]

This is just a ridiculous argument. How can you all of a sudden be saying that now when that has been the format for wrestling shows for years.

Very simple. We all accept that times have changed, given what the Internet has done to wrestling and the concept of Kayfabe being all but dead. Times have changed in this regard, as well.

And I point to the elimination of WCW and ECW as far as when the interest in wrestling began dying. What they offered was true product alternatives, and the entire wrestling audience was enormous during that time frame. Everyone was getting a piece of the pie back then.

I simply want to see the same thing re-created again, with true product alternatives, but Vince getting the whole pie this time.




When you think about it, there really isn't a ton you can do with matches and promos ....

I couldn't disagree more. Matches, promos, and storylines are 100% affected and restricted by the PG Rating. Hence, something that is more appropriate for Kids is not going to appeal to Adults. You can argue that it is "appropriate for adults" and nobody is arguing that. But the real question is "does today's programming APPEAL TO AND TARGET ADULTS AND THEIR INTERESTS?" And the answer is No. That is again, why the entire wrestling audience shrunk.

Vince is trying to tell adults, young adults, little kids, older adults ... that EVERYONE should be liking the same thing. Given how today's culture is pickier than ever, the old formula of the past is broken.


and I think the WWE does the best they can to mix it up.

Well, that is a highly debatable point, because I don't know if you've noticed or not, but quite a few fans have left wrestling over the years, and I see a large amount of people unhappy online, as well ... that still follow the product, simply out of loyalty.

By refining their operations, they can be doing a much, much better job creatively, because the viewers will feel they truly have a choice in shows to watch. If one gets tired of watching Raw, then tune into a completely different program with Smackdown. If one gets tired of watching Smackdown, then they can switch over to ECW, or switch back to Raw ... where you truly have different, viable brand alternatives. Thus, it helps in keeping fans interested, as opposed to simply offering one universal product.



Obviously, there are enough people watching it to keep WWE as a successful company.


Nobody is arguing that WWE doesn't get by okay. They do. But what WWE has settled for is mediocrity, because of laziness due to there being No Competition. They could be producing higher revenues and expand their audience by actually going after them, as opposed to simply hoping for the best and trying to force adults and kids to sit down and tell them "this product is for all of you, AND you are all going to like it."



Once again, it is not the same show every week.

Yes, it essentially is. Same basic formula every single week. The show has the same look. Same open. Same close. The same format. Same GM spots. Same Main Event with interference in the last match.

The shows are essentially one giant infomercial, and it comes across that they are just going through the motions every single week. Then, they have a PPV. Then, repeat process. Go through the motions and hype next PPV. Hold PPV. Then, onto the next month. I remember when each show was very unique some 10 years ago, and it gave the impression to the viewer that



I agree that I'm getting kind of tired on the Legacy beatdowns each week on Raw, but the storyline will play out soon enough and there will be something new.

What do you base this opinion on? Hope, that it will?



Furthermore, there is a multitude of other storylines and new stars that keep me, and a lot of others, watching.


Like what, exactly? Tell me exactly which of the current storylines that you find "compelling" and keep you interested in the product.




Really, has he taken everything away? You can't find anything good about the company? What exactly was it that they had 10 years ago that they don't have now?


Edgy, expect the unexpected programming, that was more geared towards adults.

More interesting characters.

Far better storylines.

Less Predictable outcomes of matches.

Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock. And John Cena is not in their league.

Emphasis on the Mid Card storylines.

Emphasis on Tag Teams.

Ringside Managers.

Face/Heel Broadcasting Teams.

Big Matches that Only Occurred on PPV, which made PPV Events a big deal. Now, PPV matches are given away for Free on Raw and Smackdown, thus taking prestige away from the PPV's themselves.

And competition, so where as if you were bored with WWE, you could watch Nitro, or ECW.



The fact of the matter is, it is still wrestling, there are still great matches (HBK/Undertaker), there are still interesting stars and the WWE is putting out 6 hours of shows every week, not counting PPVs.


You can only watch so much wrestling, before you realize that you essentially watch the same matches over and over, each and every week.

[Slyfox696]

First of all, before we continue, spare me your pompous, arrogant tone in your post, Sly. Spare me, "the more you post, the more you prove my point" and "I thought you understood this was a business" bullshit. And spare me the "I'm disappointed in you, Sidious."Then spare me the ignorant ridiculousness that has been running rampant throughout your posts. I truly mean those things when I said them, I spoke highly of you to the other mods when you got here...and in this thread, you are proving me wrong.

I respect you as a poster, a Mod, and as a person .... but the tone of that post is completely insulting and disrespectful.So are things like trying to get people to think that RVD was champion for only a month for reasons other than the fact he was busted with drugs.

All too many Moderators on Wrestling Forums have this "I'm a Mod. I am God. My opinion is God. I expect you to respect me, but I don't have to respect you back, because I'm a Mod" arrogant approach to Moderating. I thought you would be above that kind of thing. But you proved me wrong. I am WAY above that kind of thing. I don't do that because I'm a mod, I do that because I'm me. I did the same stuff before I was a mod. You should know, you've seen it on other forums. And you can go back in the old John Cena thread, look at posts I made before I was a mod, and see the same style of posting. In fact, I post LESS like this now because I'm a mod.

So spare me your persecution theory, because you are just getting Slyfox, not a mod.

And what's wrong with that? Why eliminate that style of programming altogether, from the fans who want to see it? Because it's already been proven to not work anymore. We saw that in the early 2000s, with the incredible decline of ratings. There is only so much shock than can be had, and only so far you can go with sexuality. You eventually reach the very precipice, and have no where else to go. That's what happened around the year 2002.

Vince has sent half of his audience away because he did not have a replacement for Austin and The Rock to take over. Cena wasn't ready yet, and when he finally was, and they were grooming him as the lone rapper ... then they take that away from him ... removed the only thing compelling about his character, shoved him down the throats of WWE fans .... and hence the fans turned on him ... and eventually turned on WWE as well ... and bolted.But that's not what happened. Cena actually DREW more people to the product. They didn't turn on the WWE because of Cena.

Go back and look at your ratings. In 2004, you'll see an average rating of around 3.7, 2005 a 3.8 and 2006 a 3.9. In 2007, you'll see that the WWE continued their 3.9 range of ratings...until the Benoit double murder/suicide. Shortly after that, there was the big SI steroid scandal where like 10 wrestlers were busted and suspended. THEN John Cena got injured a month after that.

Ratings have never recovered. It wasn't John Cena that drove them away, it was Benoit, steroids and a lack of Cena that drove them away.

Actually, if you examined the WWE's bread and butter ... the PPV data, he is not making as much money in PPV's today, even with the increased price and lost customers, as he was making when the price point was $34.95 and there were more customers. But he WAS, until Benoit/Steroids/Economy.

If you were to lower the price to $34.95 now, then he would make LESS money than he does.

At this point, I'm not going to responding to anything else from you, unless it's directly related to the topic. I'm tired of having to explain the simple stuff to you, stuff you should understand.

Now, as far as "no one really gives a Fuck about what fans think". That much is pretty evident, and actually points to my post about the "Audience of One". And just a side note, don't make me out to be the one who created that Philosophy. "The Audience of One" claim has been around for about 2 years now and apparently former Writers and those who work in the business agree with it. You can have a disagreement with the Wrestlezone Reporters, however that story about Vince having this mentality was reported right here on the site. That's great. I don't care because you've already agreed it's false. In fact, why are you still posting, when you already said that Vince is trying to provide to the different demographics, rather than just what amuses him?

I have never seen as many upset fans at the product since the IWC was formed, than today.OK, I'll make an exemption for this one.

The very nature of the IWC, even before they were on the Internet, is to complain about professional wrestling. Find some old Usenet groups from 10-15 years ago, you'll see the same level of bitching and whining you do today. Maybe YOU haven't seen it, but I certainly have.


Ah, so it's the audience's fault. I think I see how it works with you. It's never Vince's fault. You come off as a blind, loyalist Vince mark. Vince is always right and the Audience is always wrong. Pompous attitude if there ever was one.

Again, point shown that Vince did not listen to the audience.Finally, something that addresses the thread topic again.

Who said anything about it being anyone's fault? Do you even know what you're talking about anymore? The audience demanded John Cena, and Vince gave it to them. Sure, after the audience bought the ticket they booed Cena, but who cares as long as they bought the ticket to see Cena?

That's like saying that the NWA didn't listen to its fans because despite the fact they paid money to watch Ric Flair, they booed him. It doesn't matter WHY they buy the ticket, as long as they buy the ticket. And John Cena WAS the reason they were buying the tickets, and doing so at a much improved rate than before.

So, by buying those tickets, the fans said to Vince "Hey Vince, I want to see John Cena". Vince said, "All right fans, here is more John Cena".

This isn't hard to grasp. Vince didn't put Cena out there because he wanted him out there, Vince put Cena out there because the fans did. Vince didn't book for himself, he booked for the fans.

So the Mid Card doesn't sell. And Tag Teams don't sell. That's funny, because for many, many years I always thought it was the entire product together, as a whole, that sold the audience and helped build interest in the overall package. But today, that apparently is not the case.It's never been the case.

Let's put it this way. On one card, the two main-events is The Killer Bees vs. The Hart Foundation and Tito Santana vs. Honkey Tonk Man for the Intercontinental Title. On the other card, you have Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant.

Which card do you think would sell better? At the end of the day, fans don't give a damn about the midcard, they pay their money to see the main-event. It's like that in boxing, and it's like that in MMA, and it's like that in music concerts and it's like that with pro wrestling. And always has been.

Vince books for the audience by providing interesting main-event matchups. And the mid-card is just the place to give exposure and experience to the future main-eventers and future money makers.

So, if Tag Teams and the Mid Card does not sell, then why don't we do away with Tag Teams, altogether? Let's just take the next step and completely do away with them, since they are essentially useless ... and there apparently would be no harm in doing so, since they don't matter?I thought we pretty much had in the WWE. TNA uses them because they only have 2 hours of TV each week, and tag teams are a great way to get more guys on the show.

Didn't you claim that WWE offers "tremendous variety"? I say that this claim of yours is complete, 100% Bullshit. And in this case, there is very little variety even in the matches.Would you like to watch cruiserweights wrestle? Well, we have Rey and Sydal for that. You like women's wrestling? We have two separate divisions. You like tag wrestling? We have unified tag champions which can defend their belts on ever show. You like super heavyweights? We have Big Show and Khali. You like comedy skits? We have Santino. You like watching developmental talent? We have ECW and Superstars. You want to watch the best wrestlers in the world? We have Cena, HBK, Orton, Undertaker, etc. You want to see midgets wrestle? We have Hornswoggle.

Just what exactly does the WWE not provide?




My contention is that Vince puts out a product that is suitable for all audiences. i thought your contention was that he books only for his amusement? Changing stories?


I don't have time for the rest of this now. Maybe in a future post.

[General Disarray]

Very simple. We all accept that times have changed, given what the Internet has done to wrestling and the concept of Kayfabe being all but dead. Times have changed in this regard, as well.

Not really, the IWC only makes up 10% of the audience, so there are few "smarky" fans our there. There are still millions of fans that don't use the internet as a tool to gain wrestling knowledge.

And I point to the elimination of WCW and ECW as far as when the interest in wrestling began dying. What they offered was true product alternatives, and the entire wrestling audience was enormous during that time frame. Everyone was getting a piece of the pie back then.

I simply want to see the same thing re-created again, with true product alternatives, but Vince getting the whole pie this time.

I completely agree with this, the WWE would be much better with legitimite competition, and hopefully TNA or ROH can provide that in a few years. But, I don't think that the WWE is not even trying to get better just because there is no one else. Obviously, they want to put out the best product they can every single week.


I couldn't disagree more. Matches, promos, and storylines are 100% affected and restricted by the PG Rating. Hence, something that is more appropriate for Kids is not going to appeal to Adults. You can argue that it is "appropriate for adults" and nobody is arguing that. But the real question is "does today's programming APPEAL TO AND TARGET ADULTS AND THEIR INTERESTS?" And the answer is No. That is again, why the entire wrestling audience shrunk.

Wouldn't it have shrunk a lot more if every storyline was based on sex/drugs/etc. so that almost no kids could watch it? I agree that storylines may not be as "edgy" as some like, but the WWE would lose a lot more fans with an over the top sexed up prodcut than they would by going to PG.

I still don't think the PG rating has a huge effect on the show though. Can you give me a specific instance where a storyline today would be better without a PG rating?

Vince is trying to tell adults, young adults, little kids, older adults ... that EVERYONE should be liking the same thing. Given how today's culture is pickier than ever, the old formula of the past is broken.

Obviously, everyone isn't going to like the same thing, but Vince is right for trying to convince him that. If his prodcut is a certain way, his main goal should be to convince everyone that that way is the best way. Not everyone is going to agree, but he can do his best to try.


Well, that is a highly debatable point, because I don't know if you've noticed or not, but quite a few fans have left wrestling over the years, and I see a large amount of people unhappy online, as well ... that still follow the product, simply out of loyalty.

Yes, but they are gaining fans as well as losing them, just as any entertainment company does. Don't bring up people online again because I've already said that they make up only a small amount of the audience. And just because a few people are unhappy that means that the product is horrible? Even if the WWE was the best it could be, some people would still be unhappy.

By refining their operations, they can be doing a much, much better job creatively, because the viewers will feel they truly have a choice in shows to watch. If one gets tired of watching Raw, then tune into a completely different program with Smackdown. If one gets tired of watching Smackdown, then they can switch over to ECW, or switch back to Raw ... where you truly have different, viable brand alternatives. Thus, it helps in keeping fans interested, as opposed to simply offering one universal product.

I agree and that is what the WWE is doing right now. Raw, ECW, and Smackdown are completely different shows. As Sly would say "You're proving my point."


Nobody is arguing that WWE doesn't get by okay. They do. But what WWE has settled for is mediocrity, because of laziness due to there being No Competition. They could be producing higher revenues and expand their audience by actually going after them, as opposed to simply hoping for the best and trying to force adults and kids to sit down and tell them "this product is for all of you, AND you are all going to like it."

As I said before, they are still trying to make the product better. Vince will never be content with mediocrity and you calling the company lazy is highly unlikely, considering they are one of the biggest companies in the world. And what do you mean by going after their audience? Do you want them to break into their homes and force them to watch wrestling? The only thing they can do is make the best product possible, according to their opinion, and hope people watch it.


Yes, it essentially is. Same basic formula every single week. The show has the same look. Same open. Same close. The same format. Same GM spots. Same Main Event with interference in the last match.

How else do you want them to do it? That has been the formula of wrestling shows for years and it isn't going to change anytime soon.

The shows are essentially one giant infomercial, and it comes across that they are just going through the motions every single week. Then, they have a PPV. Then, repeat process. Go through the motions and hype next PPV. Hold PPV. Then, onto the next month. I remember when each show was very unique some 10 years ago, and it gave the impression to the viewer that

As a business, this is their goal. You could call each show an informercial, but I still look at it as entertainment. Of course they are going to spend a large amount of time hyping up their PPVs because that is how they make money to keep the company going. Simple Economics.


What do you base this opinion on? Hope, that it will?

No storyline goes on forever, I will guarantee you it ends within 2 months.


Like what, exactly? Tell me exactly which of the current storylines that you find "compelling" and keep you interested in the product.

I guess you didn't read my whole post, or you just ignored the parts that you didn't know how to respond to.


Edgy, expect the unexpected programming, that was more geared towards adults.

More interesting characters.

Far better storylines.

Less Predictable outcomes of matches.

Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock. And John Cena is not in their league.

Emphasis on the Mid Card storylines.

Emphasis on Tag Teams.

Ringside Managers.

Face/Heel Broadcasting Teams.

Once again, I already adressed all of these, if you'd take the time to read all of my other post, you could respond to them.

Big Matches that Only Occurred on PPV, which made PPV Events a big deal. Now, PPV matches are given away for Free on Raw and Smackdown, thus taking prestige away from the PPV's themselves.

I think that PPV events are still a big deal. Aside from CM Punk last year, when was the last time the title actually changed hands on free TV. I don't understand why you are against quality matches on free TV, that can only be good for a fan.

And competition, so where as if you were bored with WWE, you could watch Nitro, or ECW.

What do you want Vince to do about this? Lend some of his talent to TNA so they can compete with them? It's not his fault that they are the best wrestling company in the world.


You can only watch so much wrestling, before you realize that you essentially watch the same matches over and over, each and every week.

Once again, that is how wrestling is. Wrestlers are in fueds with each other and interact with each other each week. And I think you would agree that EVERY show is not the same EVERY week.

[SK]

Sorry but I cannot agree at all here, Vince Mcmahon runs the most successful wrestling business ever, I think he knows what we want to see. Jeff Hardy for example, do you honestly think Mcmahon likes this guy as an employee? A man who has 2 strikes, is a loose cannon, seems to have no commitment or concern for his own body. However, Vince put all this aside and realised that Jef is extremely over and put the title on the most unreliable man in the company.

Sure, he gets it wrong sometimes, but who doesn't? Do you honestly think Vince is so petty and stuck in his ways that he would only do what he wants to do regardless of ratings or money.

[Lord Sidious]

Sorry but I cannot agree at all here, Vince Mcmahon runs the most successful wrestling business ever, I think he knows what we want to see. Jeff Hardy for example, do you honestly think Mcmahon likes this guy as an employee? A man who has 2 strikes, is a loose cannon, seems to have no commitment or concern for his own body. However, Vince put all this aside and realised that Jef is extremely over and put the title on the most unreliable man in the company.

Sure, he gets it wrong sometimes, but who doesn't? Do you honestly think Vince is so petty and stuck in his ways that he would only do what he wants to do regardless of ratings or money.


You see, the sad part about it is that I think a lot of fans are disgusted with the product, but they simply watch out of loyalty ... because they have been fans for so long.

The fact that you bring up that "Vince runs the most successful wrestling business ever" is just another example of one being blinded by the guy's past accomplishments. Vince McMahon of the 80's and 90's is not necessarily the same Vince McMahon of today. People age. And they go past their prime. Wrestlers do, as we all know. But so do people behind the scenes, including Vince.

Vince enjoys the success he does, because of no competition. All of which was made possible because of the success of the Attitude Era, and him listening to advice that was given to him. Why did it take him so long to listen to that advice? Because his back was up against the wall, and his company was facing the possibility of going out of business.

The man is not a genius, like his marks may want to believe. And Vince has stated that he doesn't consider himself to be one either ... (as a WWE Merchandiser once told me from a sit-down conversation he had with Vince). The thing he has going for him is that not a lot of people really have any desire to invest in the wrestling business ... so Vince enjoys being King of the Mountain. And his fans put up with it, because that is pretty much all they have to pick from .... unless they simply want to give up wrestling altogether. Which many people have, and went over to UFC, instead.

The question is whether or not Vince listens to his audience, or if he only does what he wants to do. He does and he doesn't. As stated, I think the man only listens to his audience when his back is up against the wall ... and he literally has no other alternative.

As long as Vince can maintain his profitability, and doesn't have any serious competition, I think he is going to continue simply doing what he is doing. And that includes half-assing all of his weekly TV shows week in and week out. And as long as he maintains his profitability, and continues telling fans what he wants them to think, then more power to the man. But again, I think the lack of competition and product alternatives has caused many fans to simply accept Vince's vision, because there really are no other alternatives. They want to continue being wrestling fans, don't enjoy today's product as much as before, but don't want to move on.

Maybe it's time that some fans do move on. I'm actually contemplating doing so, because this is NOT the WWE that I fell in love with back in 1990, and not the same WWE I loved during the Attitude Era, either. The product has completely transformed since then, and it just does not interest me, whatsoever. My interest began dying around 2003 or so, like a lot of other people, but I've been a fan for so long, I hated to leave it altogether.

I went from watching all of their shows ... then stopped watching ECW. Then, I went from watching Raw and Smackdown on DVR and fast forwarding most of it. Then, I stopped watching Smackdown. Then, I made sure to watch 24 over Raw, and then switched over to Raw for the last hour. And I even stopped watching Raw when Adamle was GM.

But I am probably going to simply stop watching altogether. As I said, this simply is not the same WWE I fell in love with back and loved throughout the entire decade between 1990-2000 and onto 2002. And that is probably what fans like me realistically need to do is simply stop watching, altogether.

At the same time, I don't think I realistically left the WWE. Rather, the WWE and the WWE I loved has left me.

[SK]

The fact that you bring up that "Vince runs the most successful wrestling business ever" is just another example of one being blinded by the guy's past accomplishments. Vince McMahon of the 80's and 90's is not necessarily the same Vince McMahon of today. People age. And they go past their prime. Wrestlers do, as we all know. But so do people behind the scenes, including Vince.
Sorry but no-one can say WWE still isn't the most successful wrestling business ever, yes the 80s and 90s were more successful, but the WWE is still very successful and it's fan base is continuously developing by attracting in the younger fans. I'm not saying Vince is the same as he was in the 80s or 90s but he still knows what he is doing and how to entertain the fans.

Vince enjoys the success he does, because of no competition. All of which was made possible because of the success of the Attitude Era, and him listening to advice that was given to him. Why did it take him so long to listen to that advice? Because his back was up against the wall, and his company was facing the possibility of going out of business.
Vince enjoys success because of a company that HE made successful. He eliminated the competition through clever business, good programming and sure a bit of luck that WCW destroyed itself. The attitude era was born out of the Monday night wars, and because of the attitude era which HE created, the WWE beat the competition and the WWE created a bigger fan base to which McMahon obviously satisfied.

The man is not a genius, like his marks may want to believe. And Vince has stated that he doesn't consider himself to be one either ... (as a WWE Merchandiser once told me from a sit-down conversation he had with Vince). The thing he has going for him is that not a lot of people really have any desire to invest in the wrestling business ... so Vince enjoys being King of the Mountain. And his fans put up with it, because that is pretty much all they have to pick from .... unless they simply want to give up wrestling altogether. Which many people have, and went over to UFC, instead.
Agreed, the man is no genius, I am no mark for Vince, but I can accept that without him pro wrestling would be nowhere near the level it is now. Being the king of the mountain is very good and advantageous for Vince. He can afford to experiment and to make mistakes, or what you might perceive as catering to himself. Do you really think that many people have switched from WWE to UFC? And do you really think if this was the case he wouldn’t do something to stop this, rather than just make his own decisions, no. This is why you read reports of him getting so angry over low ratings!

The question is whether or not Vince listens to his audience, or if he only does what he wants to do. He does and he doesn't. As stated, I think the man only listens to his audience when his back is up against the wall ... and he literally has no other alternative.
Again allow me to bring you back to Jeff Hardy, so did what was necessary and put the title on him, not because his back was against the wall, but because it’s what the fans wanted.
As long as Vince can maintain his profitability, and doesn't have any serious competition, I think he is going to continue simply doing what he is doing. And that includes half-assing all of his weekly TV shows week in and week out. And as long as he maintains his profitability, and continues telling fans what he wants them to think, then more power to the man. But again, I think the lack of competition and product alternatives has caused many fans to simply accept Vince's vision, because there really are no other alternatives. They want to continue being wrestling fans, don't enjoy today's product as much as before, but don't want to move on.
Here you are arguing against yourself, you said WWE fans will leave for UFC, but here your saying they have no other option. I think Vince is trying his best to get ratings up by experimenting with over people such as Hardy and Punk. The lack of competition is a bad thing I do agree, it encourages lazy programming and storylines. But if the numbers drop, Vince will be trying his best to sort it.

Maybe it's time that some fans do move on. I'm actually contemplating doing so, because this is NOT the WWE that I fell in love with back in 1990, and not the same WWE I loved during the Attitude Era, either. The product has completely transformed since then, and it just does not interest me, whatsoever. My interest began dying around 2003 or so, like a lot of other people, but I've been a fan for so long, I hated to leave it altogether.
If fans are going to leave because this is not the attitude era, they should. Let it go, things change, things evolve,. But I bet you if the attitude era was brought back, people would complain that Vince is lazy by doing the same old thing. Ok, so some interest is dying out but over 175, 000 people at Wrestlemania this year show differently.

But I am probably going to simply stop watching altogether. As I said, this simply is not the same WWE I fell in love with back and loved throughout the entire decade between 1990-2000 and onto 2002. And that is probably what fans like me realistically need to do is simply stop watching, altogether.
I agree with you, if you don’t enjoy something, don’t watch it.