Cena + HBK = Gold

[Slyfox696]

It's happened three separate times now. You put HBK and Cena together in the ring, and they put on a great show. First it was WM 23, then it was Raw in London, and finally last night's match. Three extraordinary matches from these two.

Personally, I think it's because of Cena's incredible versatility that makes the matches so good. Cena is very versatile in the fact that he can sell an ass kicking extremely well, and is very believable when he is giving the ass kicking. HBK is not a strong offensive wrestler, and so having someone who is good at selling his offense improves that part of the match, and HBK's great ability to sell really makes Cena offense look great. In addition, unlike HBK, Cena doesn't seem to have a big ego, which means you can have results like last night, where HBK goes over the champion clean...again.

Why do you think they have such good matches? And would you like to see a feud between them, one that lasts longer than just one match? How would you book that feud?

[48/7]

I thought the match was terrible, actually.

[klunderbunker]

I wouldn't put them in a feud actually. I think a big aspect of what makes these matches work is you don't see them that often. As great as they are together and they are indeed great, eventually they're going to have a bad match together. This seems more likely to happen if they go at it with less time in between. The matches look even better because when you haven't seen them in awhile, you forget how truly great they work with each other. I like the well spaced out time between the encounters as the two are allowed to put on long matches taht just flow.

As for why are they good, some people just have chemistry with each other while others don't. Austin and Taker have some of the worst chemistry that two main eventers can have, while a pairing like Austin and HHH or Rock just gel together so well. Not sure if there's a reason specifically as to why or why not, but typically it's either there or not. These two have it and have a lot of it.

[IC25]

I think a major reason for the great matches is the existance of mutual respect. Both men know what the other is capable of. Michaels sees Cena as the future of the business, and Cena sees Michaels as a guy who's done it all. So, they respect each other enough to trust that the other wants this match to be as great as it can be without either man "going into business for himself."

I am not sold on a feud between these two men, though. The matches they have are the rare face vs face gems. Cena is too valuable right now to go in as a heel (sells merch and is the face of the product) and Michaels at this point really can't be a heel. They tried that with Hogan, and fans ended up booing Hogan. I am content with them crossing paths occassionally and putting on a tremendous show, but they don't have to hate each other to pique my interest.

In short, a Michaels vs Cena match will draw me regardless of the existance of a rivalry, feud, face / heel dynamic, etc.

[Slyfox696]

I thought the match was terrible, actually.
How so?

[Uncle Sam]

Eh.

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

I'd go with KB personally. It's probably down to the chemistry between the two plus their individual determination to always put on a good show. HBK's motto has always been to put on the greatest spectacle just because he can, and Cena is an advocate of the people and is driven to please them, whatever it takes.

The clash of styles works very well for a decent match imo. If you take a pairing like Taker and Austin, you're not likely to get a great match because they're both primarily brawlers, which is why Taker and Foley didn't have great wrestling matches, and Austin and Foley didn't have great wrestling matches, because they each had a move list of about 5 moves and once they were done that was it.

They could punch and kick and fight in the crowd a lot, but you were never going to get a chain wrestling classic out of them, but any of those combinations could pull off great gimmick matches.

Put one of those guys in a match with someone with a totally different style, and you'll more than likely get an enjoyable match. Austin v Rock, awesome matches made better by the charisma of the two. Taker v Foley each would bloody the other senseless. Taker v Angle were great matches, Taker v HHH is a good pairing as well etc etc.

Anyway, personally with guys like HBK and Cena, every match is essentially the same. They'll start with the headlock, bounce off the ropes, shoulder block combo, then do a few moves like a hip toss or an arm drag, go into the announce table maybe, get thrown into the ring steps perhaps, Cena might do his top rope fame-asser or the throwback, HBK might lock in his inverted Figure-4, then we'll have a reverse chinlock, HBK will do his kip up, atomic drop, scoop slam, elbow routine, Cena will do his spinning back drop, You Can't See ME, FU/STFU combo and there will be a counter here and there in between and then maybe a weird finish (but probably just a second finisher) and that's it.

When you have a first time meeting between guys it's more suspenseful. Like Cena v Batista, i watched just to see who'd get booked to win. With Cena v HBK which we've had 3 times now, i wouldn't honestly care, unless to see if HBK would actually beat the guy for once. Like Batista v Kane. Kane's NEVER beaten Batista, so i'd watch another match to see if Kane is ever going to beat the guy.

With Cena and HBK, because i personally am not a fan of either guy, i wouldn't want to see them have a 4th match, unless it was a gimmick match, or if they'd had a string of matches where there was no solid finish each time, like those 2 had after WM22, or like Taker/Batista's fued where Taker barely won the first time, and then they kept having draws, and then Batista won a match and then there was a screwjob finish in HIAC, and then Taker beat Batista in EC, so therefore Taker is the better guy and we don't need another Taker/Batista match.

Anyway, a gimmick match would be good, otherwise the aG3Nt isn't fussed about Cena/HBK 4

[Steamboat Ricky]

I marked out of my pants last night. It was the best match I've seen on Raw in years. I fully expect this to happen again at Mania.

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

I marked out of my pants last night. It was the best match I've seen on Raw in years. I fully expect this to happen again at Mania.

No way, either Jericho or Orton will be facing Cena, HBK wants to be facing Taker if they have any sense.

[HBK-aholic]

:lmao:

[Esteban Ochocinco]

Why have a good match when you can simply just put a shit wrestler like JBL on pay per view.

[Uncle Sam]

That's the TNA motto right there.

[Esteban Ochocinco]

it was a good match, good. If i have to hear one more time about the decade old shawn michaels surgically repaired back, I'm going to reach threw my tv, and rip out Michael coles throat. Seriously, I'm pretty sure that that back that had surgery on it ten years ago is probably feeling okay by now, just a hunch.

[jmt225]

I LOVED their 'Mania match against one another. Their one hour match was good, but overrated at the same time. And I missed Raw last night... so I can't comment on that, but I'm sure it was at least decent.

[CENAtion]

I loved all 3 mathces these two have put on. I still believe the match on RAW in London was the best one of them all. JBL had no reason to even be there during the match his presence alone brings it down.

[Mighty NorCal]

I marked out of my pants last night. It was the best match I've seen on Raw in years. I fully expect this to happen again at Mania.

you expect everything to happen at Mania...

[Steamboat Ricky]

you expect everything to happen at Mania...

It makes far more sense than any of the other plans being dished out there by the fanboyz.

[justinsayne]

It makes far more sense than any of the other plans being dished out there by the fanboyz.

Yeah I know, that Cena/Orton match everyone is expecting doesn't make anysense what so ever, I mean why the fuck would WWE want to have their top face taking one their top heel at the biggest show in the company's history:rolleyes:

[Steamboat Ricky]

Yeah I know, that Cena/Orton match everyone is expecting doesn't make anysense what so ever, I mean why the fuck would WWE want to have their top face taking one their top heel at the biggest show in the company's history:rolleyes:

The biggest star in the company fighting "Mr. Wrestlemania" at the 25th Wrestlemania, IN TEXAS, who has the road paved for him to be the last man to enter the Rumble and is in the biggest storyline going at the moment....or Randy Orton, a guy who is currently forming a touch football team with a bunch of mid-carders?


Cena/HBK would draw more money than Cena/Orton would.


FACT.

[Rusty]

No way, either Jericho or Orton will be facing Cena, HBK wants to be facing Taker if they have any sense.

Jericho and Orton rulz coz they are heelz.

[Rusty]

Anyway, personally with guys like HBK and Cena, every match is essentially the same. They'll start with the headlock, bounce off the ropes, shoulder block combo, then do a few moves like a hip toss or an arm drag, go into the announce table maybe, get thrown into the ring steps perhaps, Cena might do his top rope fame-asser or the throwback, HBK might lock in his inverted Figure-4, then we'll have a reverse chinlock, HBK will do his kip up, atomic drop, scoop slam, elbow routine, Cena will do his spinning back drop, You Can't See ME, FU/STFU combo and there will be a counter here and there in between and then maybe a weird finish (but probably just a second finisher) and that's it.



Yes, Cena only used 5 moves in that match :rolleyes:

I suppose you're one of those smarks that think the Undertaker vs Edge match was the greatest thing to ever hit this earth.

[Pippen loves M_F]

I must disagree and say Cena and HBK match at mania wasn't that good. Why? Well because halfway through the match Cena "couldn't walk" with a sore knee, BANG he hits the FU and just starts running around like it was fine. That is what annoyed me.

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

Jericho and Orton rulz coz they are heelz.

:disappointed: Wow.... just, just...... wow.

Yes, Cena only used 5 moves in that match :rolleyes:

I suppose you're one of those smarks that think the Undertaker vs Edge match was the greatest thing to ever hit this earth.

I didn't actually watch the match they had on Monday, but based on how both of their matches usually pan out, in conjunction with how both of their previous matches together went down, is where i came to this conclusion. I'll watch the match tonight, but i'm 99% sure i'll be on here 2moro stating that my opinion is unchanged.

I'll also voice my total lack of surprise about you immediately jumping on what i said, because it didn't agree with what the thread suggests about something involving John Cena.

Which Edge/Taker match, there were at least 4. Care to specify?

WM was ok i guess. I found it hard to believe that Edge could take it that hard to Taker considering how he'd spent 2 months running away, and doing run ins, but then if you consider that Edge is smarter than Batista, and Batista couldn't beat 'Taker with all guns blazing, then it makes more sense. Didn't think the match itself was that spectacular.

Backlash was near enough exactly the same.

Judgement Day had a terrible ending.

ONS was probably the best of their matches imo

SSlam HIAC wasn't anything special. Unfortunately, since its inception, HIAC has always been about someone flying off the top of it, or through it. I don't think anyone's even set foot on top of the cell since HHH v Y2J, so it's never going to be a memorable match, unless they do something like the 'sending to hell' bit, which imo, was stupid.

So no, despite being a die hard Taker mark, i don't think his matches with Edge were the best thing ever. I much preferred his fued with Batista the year before, and again, you suppose wrong.

[Rusty]

:disappointed: Wow.... just, just...... wow.

I hope you know that I was being sarcastic.

I didn't actually watch the match they had on Monday, but based on how both of their matches usually pan out, in conjunction with how both of their previous matches together went down, is where i came to this conclusion. I'll watch the match tonight, but i'm 99% sure i'll be on here 2moro stating that my opinion is unchanged.

Well, many thought it was a great match. They've only had two matches before this one, one was at Wrestlemania 23 and the other one was on Raw and lasted 1 whole hour. Totally different matches.

I'll also voice my total lack of surprise about you immediately jumping on what i said, because it didn't agree with what the thread suggests about something involving John Cena.

:) This is fun.

Which Edge/Taker match, there were at least 4. Care to specify?

I was talking about their match from Wrestlemania 24.

WM was ok i guess. I found it hard to believe that Edge could take it that hard to Taker considering how he'd spent 2 months running away, and doing run ins, but then if you consider that Edge is smarter than Batista, and Batista couldn't beat 'Taker with all guns blazing, then it makes more sense. Didn't think the match itself was that spectacular.

For once, I totally agree.

Backlash was near enough exactly the same.

Agreed once again.

Judgement Day had a terrible ending.

It was a terrible match by any means.

ONS was probably the best of their matches imo

Agreed.

SSlam HIAC wasn't anything special. Unfortunately, since its inception, HIAC has always been about someone flying off the top of it, or through it. I don't think anyone's even set foot on top of the cell since HHH v Y2J, so it's never going to be a memorable match, unless they do something like the 'sending to hell' bit, which imo, was stupid.

Agreed. Something isn't right here, I totally agree with this too.

So no, despite being a die hard Taker mark, i don't think his matches with Edge were the best thing ever. I much preferred his fued with Batista the year before, and again, you suppose wrong.

Agreed. See, I do agree with your posts sometimes, just not when it's about John Cena ;)

[jmt225]

I must disagree and say Cena and HBK match at mania wasn't that good. Why? Well because halfway through the match Cena "couldn't walk" with a sore knee, BANG he hits the FU and just starts running around like it was fine. That is what annoyed me.

If you pay close attention, Cena actually does sell the knee right before he goes for the five knuckle shuffle.

Plus, you have to realize that 'adrenaline rush' for a guy like Cena allows that character to not have to fully sell during a comeback (ala Hogan). Whereas someone like Michaels or CM Punk... they sell all the time because their characters are that of overcoming the odds and gaining tons of sympathy during a comeback. Cena, on the other hand, is the unstoppable superhero whenever he gets fired up. Babyface HHH is the same way. It's all about look and character.

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

I hope you know that I was being sarcastic.

I did know that, but what were you trying to say by being sarcastic? Do you think WM should be headlined by HBK/Cena AGAIN or do you think he should face Orton or Jericho?

I personally don't like seeing WM main events repeated. Rock and Austin headlined both WM 15 and WM 17, and imo the second match was no where near as entertaining as the first one was, and the only intriguing part of the rematch was when Austin and Vince revealed they were working together.

HBK vs Cena was also only 2 years ago, and i think the same thing would happen with this WM rematch.

Jericho has lost to Cena twice in the last 3 months, so i'm not so eager to see that again, and it's been almost a year since we had Cena v Orton 1 on 1, so that's the match i'd want to see personally.

Well, many thought it was a great match. They've only had two matches before this one, one was at Wrestlemania 23 and the other one was on Raw and lasted 1 whole hour. Totally different matches.

Apart from an extra 20 minutes (which probably involved 3 ad breaks anyway) and a different result, i don't recall a great deal of difference between their first two matches, but then if i'm really honest, i don't remember a great deal about the 2nd match anyway.

And in regards what i said before about the matches being the same, it's something that most of the face ME guys do anyway. They always tend to have a sequence of moves that lead to the finish. HHH 8/10 times does his AA spinebuster, followed by his taunt and then the Pedigree. Batista 8/10 times does his spinebuster, then his best Warrior impression, then the Batista bomb, HBK like i said does the flying forearm/kip-up/inv atomic drop/scoop slam/elbow drop combo before tuning up, and Cena ducks the right hand, does his spinning back drop or whatever it's called, and 99% of the time follows up with the 5KS, and then sets up for an FU. He may not always hit it, but that's the usual set up.

I know i would say this, but Taker is about the only guy who's signature moves come at any given time in any given order. I.e. Old school could happen in the first 30 seconds it could happen in the last 2 minutes, or not at all. Sure, the Last Ride ALWAYS comes when the opponent is punching him on the ropes, and the apron legdrop can be seen coming a mile off, but the timing of his other moves are difficult to pre-empt.

[Rusty]

I did know that, but what were you trying to say by being sarcastic? Do you think WM should be headlined by HBK/Cena AGAIN or do you think he should face Orton or Jericho?

I personally don't like seeing WM main events repeated. Rock and Austin headlined both WM 15 and WM 17, and imo the second match was no where near as entertaining as the first one was, and the only intriguing part of the rematch was when Austin and Vince revealed they were working together.

HBK vs Cena was also only 2 years ago, and i think the same thing would happen with this WM rematch.

Jericho has lost to Cena twice in the last 3 months, so i'm not so eager to see that again, and it's been almost a year since we had Cena v Orton 1 on 1, so that's the match i'd want to see personally.

I do want to see John Cena vs Randy Orton at Wrestlemania 25 for the title. I was just stirring you up. Take it easy man. But I mean, this match has already happened on ppv and even on Raw! So we aren't seeing anything different, therefore there is a slight chance the match might not draw. Nonetheless, I hope this match does take place though.


Apart from an extra 20 minutes (which probably involved 3 ad breaks anyway) and a different result, i don't recall a great deal of difference between their first two matches, but then if i'm really honest, i don't remember a great deal about the 2nd match anyway.

And in regards what i said before about the matches being the same, it's something that most of the face ME guys do anyway. They always tend to have a sequence of moves that lead to the finish. HHH 8/10 times does his AA spinebuster, followed by his taunt and then the Pedigree. Batista 8/10 times does his spinebuster, then his best Warrior impression, then the Batista bomb, HBK like i said does the flying forearm/kip-up/inv atomic drop/scoop slam/elbow drop combo before tuning up, and Cena ducks the right hand, does his spinning back drop or whatever it's called, and 99% of the time follows up with the 5KS, and then sets up for an FU. He may not always hit it, but that's the usual set up.

I know i would say this, but Taker is about the only guy who's signature moves come at any given time in any given order. I.e. Old school could happen in the first 30 seconds it could happen in the last 2 minutes, or not at all. Sure, the Last Ride ALWAYS comes when the opponent is punching him on the ropes, and the apron legdrop can be seen coming a mile off, but the timing of his other moves are difficult to pre-empt.

That's like saying all main event single matches are the same, well technically, they are similar. The heels dominant most of the match, the babyface fights back and either wins or comes close to winning. If the faces dominant the matches though, the heels will look like absolutely shit, and the match just wouldn't feel right. Signature moves are very important to wrestling. Without them, wrestling just wouldn't be the same.

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

I do want to see John Cena vs Randy Orton at Wrestlemania 25 for the title. I was just stirring you up. Take it easy man. But I mean, this match has already happened on ppv and even on Raw! So we aren't seeing anything different, therefore there is a slight chance the match might not draw. Nonetheless, I hope this match does take place though.

Yeah, but it wasn't as recent as last week though. Though in saying that, there's still about 80 days until WM, plus another PPV, which could easily involve Orton, seeing as apparently the SD ME for NWO is going to be the EC again. Who knows, but i do know they'd be better off having face v heelfor the title. Also, Cena and HBK have beaten each other cleanly, with HBK winning twice (correct me if i'm wrong). Orton has never beaten Cena 1 on 1 if i recall (i'm talking about since they became ME talent, and again correct me if i'm wrong), so i'd like to see Orton beat Cena on his own.


That's like saying all main event single matches are the same, well technically, they are similar. The heels dominant most of the match, the babyface fights back and either wins or comes close to winning. If the faces dominant the matches though, the heels will look like absolutely shit, and the match just wouldn't feel right. Signature moves are very important to wrestling. Without them, wrestling just wouldn't be the same.


Unfortunately, a lot of any matches are the same these days. The attitude era was the era for hardcore wrestling and stupid spots, whereas now they're trying to get the focus back on the in ring wrestling, however, it's become somewhat too simplistic imo.

As you say, it is always a level playing field in the beginning, and then somehow the heel takes advantage, and then loses that advantage and they either suffer, or manage to sneak in a finisher and win. That's all fine and dandy, but the moves the wrestlers use these days aren't that imaginative.

Near enough every wrestler who uses a submission move these days uses a rear chin lock, and nothing else. Would it kill them to lock in a short-arm scissor every now and again, or maybe a spinning toe hold, or even a surfboard stretch? Hip tosses and headlock takedowns are about as technical as the grappling gets these days and it's a sad sight to see. I mean, where are all the suplexes these days? A vertical suplex, a belly to back, the occassional belly to belly, a northern lights once in a blue moon, and Regal might do an exploder suplex if he's got an extra 20 seconds of his match to fit it in.

When i brought that up, it was me venting frustrations with how the majority of matches are carried out these days. If you ever read my comments about the guys in Priceless, you'll notice that i frequently describe their wrestling skills as a replication of their father's wrestling skills some 20 years ago, back when that style of match was still popular. It's something i notice among a LOT of the mid card guys, and the only ones gaining true recognition by WWE who don't have HOF daddy's are the ones with innovative moves i.e Punk, Kofi, Morrisson, Miz, Bourne, Swagger (he's the first guy i've seen do a gut wrench powerbomb since Test left), and back when he was new, Kennedy.

[jay07]

LOL its funny that Cena fans say that Cena vs HBK matches are memorable but can not remember they have had 4 MATCHES WM23,raw in london,wrestlemania rewind edition of raw and on monday night there matches are really memorable.

[Slyfox696]

LOL its funny that Cena fans say that Cena vs HBK matches are memorable but can not remember they have had 4 MATCHES WM23,raw in london,wrestlemania rewind edition of raw and on monday night there matches are really memorable.
Who said anything about memorable? I said that three separate times they've been put together, and put on an incredible match.

As far as the rewind match, are you referring to the one that was nothing more than a build to another match and angle, and ended in a DQ from Orton?


I remembered the match just fine, I'm just talking about the three matches they've had that was incredible. But hey, why bother with reading comprehension?

[Uncle Sam]

I suppose you're one of those smarks that think the Undertaker vs Edge match was the greatest thing to ever hit this earth.

That match was fantastic though.

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

LOL its funny that Cena fans say that Cena vs HBK matches are memorable but can not remember they have had 4 MATCHES WM23,raw in london,wrestlemania rewind edition of raw and on monday night there matches are really memorable.

1) I happen to have an amazing memory when it comes to things i have seen on television. It's an absurd, nerdy gift of mine

2) I hate John Cena yet still remember all the matches

[Alan Quartermaine]

Near enough every wrestler who uses a submission move these days uses a rear chin lock, and nothing else. Would it kill them to lock in a short-arm scissor every now and again, or maybe a spinning toe hold, or even a surfboard stretch? Hip tosses and headlock takedowns are about as technical as the grappling gets these days and it's a sad sight to see. I mean, where are all the suplexes these days? A vertical suplex, a belly to back, the occassional belly to belly, a northern lights once in a blue moon, and Regal might do an exploder suplex if he's got an extra 20 seconds of his match to fit it in.

TNA, just ask them.

[jay07]

Who said anything about memorable? I said that three separate times they've been put together, and put on an incredible match.

As far as the rewind match, are you referring to the one that was nothing more than a build to another match and angle, and ended in a DQ from Orton?


I remembered the match just fine, I'm just talking about the three matches they've had that was incredible. But hey, why bother with reading comprehension?


I just watched it and it was not that good

Their WM23 match was ok could have been better if cena sold his knee properly its a shame that match could of been the best mania match in a while.

Raw in london in 07: Overrated WM23 was way better,Long matches doesnt make it a classic still good for raw.

wrestlemania rewind raw in 08: This was the worst by a mile i was expecting a classic i was dissapointed a step down from both matches,It had no good come out of it and had a crappy ending,No wonder hardly anyone remembers it.

Raw on monday: I found this better than the one in london great match by both men one of my fav's of the past years no one can say that was a bad match it was great,hope there is a cena vs hbk v it would be a certian
classic.

so i would say not always gold but no one can say they have had not one gold match

[Rusty]

Yeah, but it wasn't as recent as last week though. Though in saying that, there's still about 80 days until WM, plus another PPV, which could easily involve Orton, seeing as apparently the SD ME for NWO is going to be the EC again. Who knows, but i do know they'd be better off having face v heelfor the title. Also, Cena and HBK have beaten each other cleanly, with HBK winning twice (correct me if i'm wrong). Orton has never beaten Cena 1 on 1 if i recall (i'm talking about since they became ME talent, and again correct me if i'm wrong), so i'd like to see Orton beat Cena on his own.

Yes, because heels winning at the biggest stage of them all hasn't happen since..... last year. Coincidentally, Orton pinned Cena too last year. Why would anyone want to see it again the year after? Have Cena win the match this time, that way everyone goes home happy (except smarks of course).

Unfortunately, a lot of any matches are the same these days. The attitude era was the era for hardcore wrestling and stupid spots, whereas now they're trying to get the focus back on the in ring wrestling, however, it's become somewhat too simplistic imo.

I actually like today's style of wrestling. Based on my opinion only.

As you say, it is always a level playing field in the beginning, and then somehow the heel takes advantage, and then loses that advantage and they either suffer, or manage to sneak in a finisher and win. That's all fine and dandy, but the moves the wrestlers use these days aren't that imaginative.

Maybe the bookers tell them what moves they can and can't do.

Near enough every wrestler who uses a submission move these days uses a rear chin lock, and nothing else. Would it kill them to lock in a short-arm scissor every now and again, or maybe a spinning toe hold, or even a surfboard stretch? Hip tosses and headlock takedowns are about as technical as the grappling gets these days and it's a sad sight to see. I mean, where are all the suplexes these days? A vertical suplex, a belly to back, the occassional belly to belly, a northern lights once in a blue moon, and Regal might do an exploder suplex if he's got an extra 20 seconds of his match to fit it in.

I do agree, but it shouldn't make a huge difference to the overall match quality. Once again, the bookers may have control over a wrestler's moves. So don't completely blame the superstars.

When i brought that up, it was me venting frustrations with how the majority of matches are carried out these days. If you ever read my comments about the guys in Priceless, you'll notice that i frequently describe their wrestling skills as a replication of their father's wrestling skills some 20 years ago, back when that style of match was still popular. It's something i notice among a LOT of the mid card guys, and the only ones gaining true recognition by WWE who don't have HOF daddy's are the ones with innovative moves i.e Punk, Kofi, Morrisson, Miz, Bourne, Swagger (he's the first guy i've seen do a gut wrench powerbomb since Test left), and back when he was new, Kennedy.

I have no idea what your overall point is from this statement. Do you like the mid-card guys or don't you?

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

Yes, because heels winning at the biggest stage of them all hasn't happen since..... last year. Coincidentally, Orton pinned Cena too last year. Why would anyone want to see it again the year after? Have Cena win the match this time, that way everyone goes home happy (except smarks of course).

Didn't say anything about heels winning the title match, i said i'd want to see Orton beat Cena cleanly 1-on-1, because that result has never occurred in any of their matches. Whereas last year, Orton got a quick pin in a triple threat match, which doesn't prove that he can actually beat Cena

Maybe the bookers tell them what moves they can and can't do.

Probably, it would explain why no one does German suplexes anymore, beause people will think of Benoit, but then there are guys who are exceptions like Evan Bourne doing the SSP, and HHH and Benoit doing the Crossface. What's the deal with that exactly?

I do agree, but it shouldn't make a huge difference to the overall match quality. Once again, the bookers may have control over a wrestler's moves. So don't completely blame the superstars.

It shouldn't but it does when you see near enough the same match every week, except the competitors and signature moves have been changed. Also we've seen a LOT of shit finishes to matches since this started happening i.e. guys tripping over and hitting their head on their opponent's knee and losing. Remember that last year?

I have no idea what your overall point is from this statement. Do you like the mid-card guys or don't you?

I was saying that the majority of guys on this forum, mark out for the guys who have innovative repetoire's i.e. Morrisson with his springboard roundhouse kick, and Miz with his clothesline in the corner where he slides through the ropes, Kingston with his weird double leg drop, his counter to being thrown out where he uses his neck to bounce back in and his mounted punches where he does the running jump. The ones with decent mic skills get ahead quickly too.

Like i say, i enjoy wrestlers who do things that make them stand out, which is about the guys i mentioned and very few others.

[Rusty]

Didn't say anything about heels winning the title match, i said i'd want to see Orton beat Cena cleanly 1-on-1, because that result has never occurred in any of their matches. Whereas last year, Orton got a quick pin in a triple threat match, which doesn't prove that he can actually beat Cena

Well you were talking about the WM main event and you mentioned that you want Orton vs Cena with Orton winning the match cleanly. So technically you WERE talking about the title match.

Heel obsession is so smarky.

Probably, it would explain why no one does German suplexes anymore, beause people will think of Benoit, but then there are guys who are exceptions like Evan Bourne doing the SSP, and HHH and Benoit doing the Crossface. What's the deal with that exactly?

I have no idea, but I do agree with this.

It shouldn't but it does when you see near enough the same match every week, except the competitors and signature moves have been changed. Also we've seen a LOT of shit finishes to matches since this started happening i.e. guys tripping over and hitting their head on their opponent's knee and losing. Remember that last year?

Yeah, that was bullshit. But even on Raw this past week, Orton beat Kane with a drop kick! And the worst part was that Kane got a shoulder up, so I think that might have been a fuck-up by Kane there.

I was saying that the majority of guys on this forum, mark out for the guys who have innovative repetoire's i.e. Morrisson with his springboard roundhouse kick, and Miz with his clothesline in the corner where he slides through the ropes, Kingston with his weird double leg drop, his counter to being thrown out where he uses his neck to bounce back in and his mounted punches where he does the running jump. The ones with decent mic skills get ahead quickly too.

Like i say, i enjoy wrestlers who do things that make them stand out, which is about the guys i mentioned and very few others.

Agreed. But Jeff Hardy doesn't have good mic skills, and he's the WWE Champion.