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View Full Version : Int. Region, Fourth Round, 3 Stages of Hell: (1) Ric Flair vs. (20) Mitsuharu Misawa


klunderbunker
04-29-2014, 07:38 PM
This is a fourth round match in the International Region. It is a 3 Stages of Hell match, held at the 02 Arena in London, England. One week has passed since the third round, so some injuries or fatigue may be a factor.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/images/2007/06/14/blue02arena450_450x320.jpg

Rules: This is a two out of three falls match. Each round has a different gimmick. The first fall is a tables match, the second fall is a street fight won by pin or submission, the third fall is a cage match, won by pin, submission or escape.

http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/Entertainment/0/0/Ric%20Flair%20AP%20Graphics%20Bank%20660.jpg

#1. Ric Flair

Vs.

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/misawa.jpg

#20. Mitsuharu Misawa


Polls will be open for five days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

Bythedockofthebay
04-30-2014, 12:16 AM
I'm going Misawa here, he took AJPW from number two to number one in Japan, he had reign of dominates in Japan that's never been duplicated and the only man that's come close to me is Rikidozan. After taking AJPW to the number one spot in Japan, he damn near destroy it when he left.

On the day he started Noah, there were 100 reporters and photographers there for that moment. He had the most dominate run of anyone in the 90's more so than Sting, more so than Austin.

Once he left AJPW, Pro Wrestling Noah became the top fed in Japan while Misawa and Kobashi were on top. So much so that Misawa holds the attendance record for both AJPW and Pro wrestling Noah. I think he's the greatest draw in the history of Japanese wrestling. And in the most talented main event scene ever, Misawa dominated, he also has an extremely good record against all of his opponents. The vast majority of Misawa's loses came in Tag matches.

I know misawa will probably lose this, but in all honesty he shouldn't. Flair was never the top draw in the US. He was great but not on Misawa's level. This would be a five star match which flair has seven and misawa has 25. It would without a doubt be the best match in this tourney but it would be Flairs last, and Misawa would go on to the next round.

deem
04-30-2014, 08:09 AM
Misawa is kind of out of his element in gimmick matches, but he's a double hard mofo who should adapt well enough in each of these for me. Plus, Flair has always been a little overrated. He's a great, but not close to THE goat that people make him out to be. Anyway, that's an argument I'm sure will be expanded upon in this thread.

What I will point out that I feel is very relevant is the "damage carried forward" stipulation. While Misawa would have had a stiff match with Jericho in the street fight last round, I can't think he would be carrying forward that much more than usual, considering how stiff Misawa regularly worked.

Flair though? A 30 minute submission match vs someone that submitted Andre the Giant multiple times. I wish I was around to argue Inoki over Flair, but whatever. What I will take - Inoki had multiple submission moves. Sure the sleeper hold or the octopus stretch were his favoured ones, but he regularly worked limbs too. I'm near certain in a 30m match a story would have been told of a limb getting worked over, given how well Flair sells an injury and the dynamic of an ultimate submission match. Misawa is one of the greatest ring psychologists of all time, is SURE to again target any weakness (especially given his presumable companionship with Flair's previous opponent), which makes Flair significantly the more weakened of the two heading into a gruelling 2 out of 3 falls match. Limb injuries tend to lead to finishes regularly in tables matches - legs collapsing when attempting superplexes, cant get them up for a slam if an arm injury etc. Adding weapons into the mix in the second fall leads me to believe Flair can hardly move heading into the cage match, where any weakened limb is a huge problem when attempting to escape a cage.

I'm not saying Misawa would win, but the way the match would be booked is fairly clear in my mind. Misawa dominates the limb on the first fall with the storytelling directly related to Flair crashing through a table. The assault on the limb continues into the second fall, with Flair getting a roll up to take it into the cage. There, it's back and forth with long Misawa control segments before the climax.

I don't see Flair single handedly removing the remaining Japanese contingent from this tournament. I think one progressing to the final 8 would be beneficial to the tournament in general, I think Misawa is a fair representation for them. I'd prefer Inoki, but whatever. Flair is willing to put people over, he isn't beating both of the Far East's hopes in the same arena in the same week.

Vote Misawa. Keep the WZ Tournament fresh, keep the matches interesting

HBsam31
04-30-2014, 09:46 PM
I am voting for Flair here. I just think he is the better overall legend, and I can't see him losing two falls to Misawa. A lot of this is personal preference to be honest, but I am voting Flair to the next round.

nightmare
05-01-2014, 01:39 AM
The match is a dead guy vs a man who will not die. Seriously, he is the Keith Richards of wrestling. Flair has been to hell and back. We have seen him get the shit kicked out of him & he still manages to hit a low blow and a Figure Four.


He is the dirtiest player in the game.


I see Flair getting a sneaky win in the tables match. Then Misawa beats him for the second fall. Tough battle there & Flair is beyond busted open at this point. But he uses his tricks and either picks up a submission or crawls out of the cage within an inch of his life.


Soaked in blood, mostly his own- Ric Flair takes this round in a brutal classic.

Tastycles
05-01-2014, 05:17 PM
In reality, Flair probably would be more likely to win in the UK. However, Misawa is not, to my knowledge, ridiculously overrated by fans of Japanese wrestling. This isn't a vote for Misawa, it's a vote against every idiot who thinks Ric Flair is the greatest wrestler of all time. He wasn't. During his peak, during the four horsemen all of that, the USA audience was overwhelmingly watching someone else. Ric Flair was the AJ Styles of the 80s, except with much shitter matches. Oh he's fallen over AMAZING SELLING. The trouble is, most people who have stuck with wrestling were NWA fans as they are used to settling for mediocrity and didn't experience the void WWF fans faced after Warrior, Hogan and Savage jumped ship within a year or two of each other, and as a result they have massively inflated the abilities of Flair.

It's...Baylariat!
05-03-2014, 05:28 AM
I'm going Misawa here, he took AJPW from number two to number one in Japan, he had reign of dominates in Japan that's never been duplicated and the only man that's come close to me is Rikidozan. After taking AJPW to the number one spot in Japan, he damn near destroy it when he left.

On the day he started Noah, there were 100 reporters and photographers there for that moment. He had the most dominate run of anyone in the 90's more so than Sting, more so than Austin.

Once he left AJPW, Pro Wrestling Noah became the top fed in Japan while Misawa and Kobashi were on top. So much so that Misawa holds the attendance record for both AJPW and Pro wrestling Noah. I think he's the greatest draw in the history of Japanese wrestling. And in the most talented main event scene ever, Misawa dominated, he also has an extremely good record against all of his opponents. The vast majority of Misawa's loses came in Tag matches.

I know misawa will probably lose this, but in all honesty he shouldn't. Flair was never the top draw in the US. He was great but not on Misawa's level. This would be a five star match which flair has seven and misawa has 25. It would without a doubt be the best match in this tourney but it would be Flairs last, and Misawa would go on to the next round.

Flair was a major draw in numerous countries. Just because Hogan was a bigger draw, doesn't mean Flair didn't draw money. NOBODY could outdraw Hulk Hogan in his prime.

In reality, Flair probably would be more likely to win in the UK. However, Misawa is not, to my knowledge, ridiculously overrated by fans of Japanese wrestling. This isn't a vote for Misawa, it's a vote against every idiot who thinks Ric Flair is the greatest wrestler of all time. He wasn't. During his peak, during the four horsemen all of that, the USA audience was overwhelmingly watching someone else. Ric Flair was the AJ Styles of the 80s, except with much shitter matches. Oh he's fallen over AMAZING SELLING. The trouble is, most people who have stuck with wrestling were NWA fans as they are used to settling for mediocrity and didn't experience the void WWF fans faced after Warrior, Hogan and Savage jumped ship within a year or two of each other, and as a result they have massively inflated the abilities of Flair.

You're the idiot here, Tasty. Just because I don't like Bret Hart doesn't mean I discredit everything he did. That's what you're doing to Flair here.

Flair could talk up his opponents during interviews and put them over like they were future HOF'ers. We're talking guys like Nikita Koloff, Magnum TA, Ricky Morton, etc. These guys were career mid-carders and Flair made you believe that those matches were as tough as his matches with Race, Rhodes, and Steamboat.

Just because you like a certain kind of wrestling doesn't make Flair's type 'shittier' than the other.

Flair was the NWA World's Heavyweight Champion when that belt was the most prestigious belt in wrestling. Flair defended that belt on every continent except Antarctica and if the NWA had a territory there, he'd defend the belt there, too. Flair was an excellent worker who routinely went 60 minutes in matches with wrestlers that couldn't even shine his boots. And before you say that the WWF title was more prestigious than the NWA belt, don't fool yourself. The WWWF was a territory that happened to go mainstream and make it to the big time. At one time, it was an NWA territory.

Moral of the story is you can discount Flair with your personal opinions all you want to. All you've done here is make yourself look like an uneducated fool who marks out for highspots and flaming tables as opposed to matches that tell a story or involve some logic behind them.

Now onto the argument for Flair over Misawa. Flair wrestled in Japan on a regular basis and beat their top stars. Only Tatsumi Fujinami beat him for his NWA title, and Flair avenged that loss. Flair would beat Misawa in three falls and move on to the next round, covered in blood going 'WOOOOOO' the the British as he left.

Vote Flair.

Bythedockofthebay
05-03-2014, 12:03 PM
Flair was a major draw in numerous countries. Just because Hogan was a bigger draw, doesn't mean Flair didn't draw money. NOBODY could outdraw Hulk Hogan in his prime.

That's impossible to say, just because no one DID outdraw Hogan doesn't mean no one could have. Flair just wasn't good enough to do it. Flair drew but he wasn't a top flight draw.


You're the idiot here, Tasty. Just because I don't like Bret Hart doesn't mean I discredit everything he did. That's what you're doing to Flair here.

No he isn't, he simply said he wasn't the greatest of all time like some make him out to be. And compared him to AJ Styles which by my standards is a bit off but in truth the comparison isn't that harsh. AJ wrestled in a second flight company as well. He also wrestled all around the world. AJ Styles has not only won world titles in America but he's the current IWGP world champion. Flair is highly overrated and just because you wear rose tinted glass when you look at his career doesn't mean someone's an idiot for bringing it up.


Flair could talk up his opponents during interviews and put them over like they were future HOF'ers. We're talking guys like Nikita Koloff, Magnum TA, Ricky Morton, etc. These guys were career mid-carders and Flair made you believe that those matches were as tough as his matches with Race, Rhodes, and Steamboat.

Magnum TA's career was built to make him the future. Calling him a career mid-carder discredits everything he could've been. Second where did Morton go from there? No where, Nikita? no where. If you're saying Flairs job was to get people over, he didn't. Fact is that Flair is overrated, highly overrated.


Just because you like a certain kind of wrestling doesn't make Flair's type 'shittier' than the other.

No what made it shittier than the others is that more people watched the other type of wrestling and Flair never got his company over the hump. Not once.


Flair was the NWA World's Heavyweight Champion when that belt was the most prestigious belt in wrestling. Flair defended that belt on every continent except Antarctica and if the NWA had a territory there, he'd defend the belt there, too. Flair was an excellent worker who routinely went 60 minutes in matches with wrestlers that couldn't even shine his boots. And before you say that the WWF title was more prestigious than the NWA belt, don't fool yourself. The WWWF was a territory that happened to go mainstream and make it to the big time. At one time, it was an NWA territory.

Most prestigious? If by most prestigious you mean the second most wanted belt, or the second more important belt in wrestling? Sure. If that's what you mean by most prestigious surely. And yes the WWWF was a territory but it grew into a national mainstream giant while Flair was on top. Basically, what I'm saying is Flair took NWA and went from top company to looking at hogan's dust for the rest of his career.


Moral of the story is you can discount Flair with your personal opinions all you want to. All you've done here is make yourself look like an uneducated fool who marks out for highspots and flaming tables as opposed to matches that tell a story or involve some logic behind them.

No actually he didn't make him look like an uneducated fool, if anything you have. He also didn't say shit about Flaming tables or high spots. In fact I remember the last time Hogan jumped from a balcony through a flaming table? Oh wait never. If anything Flair was doing the high spots of his day, and Hogan wasn't. If anything he's saying that he enjoys crowd involvement over anything. Which warrior, hogan, and savage were all great at. Flair is an overbloated, overrated guy. His whole career was spent in other peoples shadow's and the only time he was in a top flight company was when Hogan was around to ensure it.


Now onto the argument for Flair over Misawa. Flair wrestled in Japan on a regular basis and beat their top stars. Only Tatsumi Fujinami beat him for his NWA title, and Flair avenged that loss. Flair would beat Misawa in three falls and move on to the next round, covered in blood going 'WOOOOOO' the the British as he left.

Yeah he did, but there's a problem. None of those guys where Misawa, none of them were the draw Misawa was imo. Misawa took two companies to the top. He started a company and took it to the number one spot, while he himself was champion in said company. Misawa has the two most attended shows for two companies, he's one of if not the biggest draw ever in Japan. Flair never faced and guy like Misawa. Ever, if he had he'd lose.

Tastycles
05-03-2014, 02:01 PM
Flair was a major draw in numerous countries. Just because Hogan was a bigger draw, doesn't mean Flair didn't draw money. NOBODY could outdraw Hulk Hogan in his prime.

A lot more people drew a lot more money than Flair.

You're the idiot here, Tasty. Just because I don't like Bret Hart doesn't mean I discredit everything he did. That's what you're doing to Flair here.

Flair could talk up his opponents during interviews and put them over like they were future HOF'ers. We're talking guys like Nikita Koloff, Magnum TA, Ricky Morton, etc. These guys were career mid-carders and Flair made you believe that those matches were as tough as his matches with Race, Rhodes, and Steamboat.

And nobody paid to see those matches.

Just because you like a certain kind of wrestling doesn't make Flair's type 'shittier' than the other.

His matches are shit. They don't sell a story, that's why very few children and non wrestling fans bought into them.

Flair was the NWA World's Heavyweight Champion when that belt was the most prestigious belt in wrestling. Flair defended that belt on every continent except Antarctica and if the NWA had a territory there, he'd defend the belt there, too. Flair was an excellent worker who routinely went 60 minutes in matches with wrestlers that couldn't even shine his boots. And before you say that the WWF title was more prestigious than the NWA belt, don't fool yourself. The WWWF was a territory that happened to go mainstream and make it to the big time. At one time, it was an NWA territory.

Yes it was, and while Flair was the NWA Champion that territorial title went to a level that the NWA title never did in terms of people giving a shit about it.

Moral of the story is you can discount Flair with your personal opinions all you want to. All you've done here is make yourself look like an uneducated fool who marks out for highspots and flaming tables as opposed to matches that tell a story or involve some logic behind them.

Err... When have I ever said that I like flaming tables? I said Flair was the AJ Styles of his day because he was. He was the biggest deal in the second company that could never make a dent into the WWF. The difference between Flair and Styles is that Styles has never got to wrestle on the same card as Cena to finally get mainstream recognition.

wrestlingislife
05-03-2014, 07:17 PM
I'm gonna keep this short because other users have already pointed out more than i know about Misawa but it really sucks that Flair is going to win here because there is no way he should, he was good but as pointed out by others, overestimated.

It's...Baylariat!
05-04-2014, 01:20 AM
A lot more people drew a lot more money than Flair.

You know that match with Ricky Morton, one half of the Rock N Roll Express? You probably don't and that's OK. Not many do. But that match was part of the Great American Bash tour and it drew almost 30,000 people to a random football stadium in Charlotte, NC. Flair was a heel at the time, so using his hometown advantage wouldn't work here. Point is, Flair could draw a crowd and money. It's the Crockett's that were so shitty at making money off of Flair's success. If there was no Hogan, and Flair was Vince's guy, he would have made plenty of money off of him. Not as much as Hogan, because no one could outdraw Hogan, but Flair was a very viable draw, no matter your personal preferences.

And nobody paid to see those matches.

They did. They didn't pay much because the Crockett's were awful at running a wrestling company financially, but many people paid to see Flair get his ass kicked, only to walk out retaining the belt.



His matches are shit. They don't sell a story, that's why very few children and non wrestling fans bought into them.

Flair wasn't booked to cater to children. And non-wrestling fans don't like any wrestling. That's why they're non-wrestling fans.

Yes it was, and while Flair was the NWA Champion that territorial title went to a level that the NWA title never did in terms of people giving a shit about it.

The title didn't lose it's luster until Flair lost the belt for good. While Flair had it, many around the world seen him as the World's Champion.

Err... When have I ever said that I like flaming tables? I said Flair was the AJ Styles of his day because he was. He was the biggest deal in the second company that could never make a dent into the WWF. The difference between Flair and Styles is that Styles has never got to wrestle on the same card as Cena to finally get mainstream recognition.

Comparing Ric Flair to AJ Styles has to be the most absurd comparison I've ever heard.

Nothing against Styles, but to say he's on par with Flair is laughable and even Styles would tell you that.

Tastycles
05-04-2014, 04:47 AM
You know that match with Ricky Morton, one half of the Rock N Roll Express? You probably don't and that's OK. Not many do. But that match was part of the Great American Bash tour and it drew almost 30,000 people to a random football stadium in Charlotte, NC. Flair was a heel at the time, so using his hometown advantage wouldn't work here. Point is, Flair could draw a crowd and money. It's the Crockett's that were so shitty at making money off of Flair's success. If there was no Hogan, and Flair was Vince's guy, he would have made plenty of money off of him. Not as much as Hogan, because no one could outdraw Hogan, but Flair was a very viable draw, no matter your personal preferences.

I'm not going to pretend that I remember this match. But I spent longer than I cared to trawling through this:-

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/bashtours.htm

to find out which match you were on about. Presumably it's the one where they drew 23,000, which I suppose is about 30,000. One card on the whole tour drew big, the rest were all about 6,000. Well done.

Meanwhile in 1986, WWE was pulling in crowds in the high tens of thousands for shows headlined by the British Bulldogs.

They did. They didn't pay much because the Crockett's were awful at running a wrestling company financially, but many people paid to see Flair get his ass kicked, only to walk out retaining the belt.


Well they didn't.

Flair wasn't booked to cater to children. And non-wrestling fans don't like any wrestling. That's why they're non-wrestling fans.


THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT. The only people that love Flair are the people who already pay to watch wrestling. He will never bring in new audiences and never did. He didn't lose audiences, which is more than can be said for other people winning matches in this round, but he didn't gain them either. Hogan, Warrior, Savage and Cena, guys like that brought in children who weren't previously watching. Austin, Rock, Sting and Hollywood Hogan, guys like that brought in adults that weren't previously watching.


The title didn't lose it's luster until Flair lost the belt for good. While Flair had it, many around the world seen him as the World's Champion.


And a shite sight lot more saw Sergeant Slaughter as the World's Champion. That's not conjecture, that's a fact. Clash of the Champions in January 1991 and June 1991, headlined by Flair drew TV audiences half of that of Warrior vs Slaughter did on Saturday Night's Main Event on a card without Hulk Hogan. It wasn't just Hogan who outdrew Flair, it was all of the big names on WWF.


Comparing Ric Flair to AJ Styles has to be the most absurd comparison I've ever heard.

Nothing against Styles, but to say he's on par with Flair is laughable and even Styles would tell you that.

Styles would tell me that because he's someone who loves wrestling and therefore can't see the wood for the trees. Flair was the biggest name in the second biggest company in the world. He wrestled globally but never came close to making the impact the bigger company was making. Not even close.

He's respected by people within the industry, but fair-weather fans couldn't give a shit. That's why the NWA in the 80s was just about the only major wrestling company in history that didn't grow its audience during a boom period.

It's...Baylariat!
05-04-2014, 03:30 PM
I'm not going to pretend that I remember this match. But I spent longer than I cared to trawling through this:-

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/bashtours.htm

to find out which match you were on about. Presumably it's the one where they drew 23,000, which I suppose is about 30,000. One card on the whole tour drew big, the rest were all about 6,000. Well done.

Meanwhile in 1986, WWE was pulling in crowds in the high tens of thousands for shows headlined by the British Bulldogs.

That sounds absurd. Not saying it's true or false, but that sounds absolutely absurd that a show headlined by a foreign tag team drew more houses than Flair did.

What also isn't mentioned is that most of the arena venues ran in this tour were sell outs. Also the Capitol Centre in Landover, MD... a WWWF hotbed.... a house of 15,000 came out to see the Horsemen battle The Road Warriors, Nikita Koloff and Dusty Rhodes. Not too shabby in the WWF's backyard for many years.


Well they didn't.

They did. From Japan to New Zealand to Miami to San Francisco.

THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT. The only people that love Flair are the people who already pay to watch wrestling. He will never bring in new audiences and never did. He didn't lose audiences, which is more than can be said for other people winning matches in this round, but he didn't gain them either. Hogan, Warrior, Savage and Cena, guys like that brought in children who weren't previously watching. Austin, Rock, Sting and Hollywood Hogan, guys like that brought in adults that weren't previously watching.


Flair drew lots of college age kids to his show when he was the leader of the Horsemen. That's a hot demographic called the 18-25 crowd, one of the highest targeted demos in entertainment. And acting like Flair is second tier is just foolish. Being the second biggest wrestling organization in the world in 1986 carries a LOT more weight than being the second biggest promotion in 2014. TNA can barely draw 500 fans to their arenas. Flair and JCP could draw that many people to a random pasture in NC on less than a hour's notice through word of mouth.


And a shite sight lot more saw Sergeant Slaughter as the World's Champion. That's not conjecture, that's a fact. Clash of the Champions in January 1991 and June 1991, headlined by Flair drew TV audiences half of that of Warrior vs Slaughter did on Saturday Night's Main Event on a card without Hulk Hogan. It wasn't just Hogan who outdrew Flair, it was all of the big names on WWF.

Cable vs Broadcast TV is apples and oranges. Being on NBC on Saturday night is way different than being on cable on primetime. In the USA, broadcast TV was carried over antenna's back in those days and anyone could get that broadcast. To get TBS, you had to have cable or the strongest antenna or satellite known to man. I'll even concede that the WWF was much bigger than a flailing WCW that had Jim Herd at the helm ready to turn Flair into friggin' Spartacus and cut his hair.


Styles would tell me that because he's someone who loves wrestling and therefore can't see the wood for the trees. Flair was the biggest name in the second biggest company in the world. He wrestled globally but never came close to making the impact the bigger company was making. Not even close.

Was Flair even brought into the WWF to draw huge houses? To me, Vince brought him in because Flair was a major star in the NWA and would be a great fit with Hogan, Savage, Warrior, Piper, etc. Flair wasn't asked to carry the ball for the WWF. He was given the WWF title because he could be trusted with a great match while Hogan had other obligations to fill. Flair wasn't asked to be a savior for the WWF. He was merely signed to a contract to get his mojo back. WCW on the other hand signed Flair because without him, their programs were terrible. Flair gave WCW credibility again and caused Ted Turner to invest millions upon millions of dollars in purchasing WCW. Hogan didn't cause Ted to do that. Flair did.

He's respected by people within the industry, but fair-weather fans couldn't give a shit. That's why the NWA in the 80s was just about the only major wrestling company in history that didn't grow its audience during a boom period.

That's because they had an established audience already. Many factors played into JCP's demise. Flair isn't the cause of that. Bad spending, Vince threatening to cut out Wrestlemania to cable companies if they carried Starrcade 87, and piss poor management caused that company to fail. Flair helped them tread water for close to five years before they finally went under and were bought by Ted Turner.

And being highly regarded by your peers is the ultimate complement to be paid in any industry. Flair's reputation among wrestlers is unparalleled. And that carries more weight with me than not filling up an arena sometimes.

Bythedockofthebay
05-05-2014, 08:44 PM
Flair drew lots of college age kids to his show when he was the leader of the Horsemen. That's a hot demographic called the 18-25 crowd, one of the highest targeted demos in entertainment. And acting like Flair is second tier is just foolish. Being the second biggest wrestling organization in the world in 1986 carries a LOT more weight than being the second biggest promotion in 2014. TNA can barely draw 500 fans to their arenas. Flair and JCP could draw that many people to a random pasture in NC on less than a hour's notice through word of mouth.

Yeah it might be true that it carried more weight but Flair also saw the downfall of the NWA. When he first won the NWA title, it was the top fed in the US. By the time he was done, the company was practically out of business. Needing to be bought out by turner just to survive. While Misawa took two feds to the top in Japan, one in which he was the owner of and had no history.


Cable vs Broadcast TV is apples and oranges. Being on NBC on Saturday night is way different than being on cable on primetime. In the USA, broadcast TV was carried over antenna's back in those days and anyone could get that broadcast. To get TBS, you had to have cable or the strongest antenna or satellite known to man. I'll even concede that the WWF was much bigger than a flailing WCW that had Jim Herd at the helm ready to turn Flair into friggin' Spartacus and cut his hair.

You should concede that flair wasn't a big draw and did nothing but hold the belt because the NWA couldn't get a top star like Hogan at the time. And once WCW had Hogan what happened? Hogan took over and Flair was second fiddle (if not 4th fiddle).


Was Flair even brought into the WWF to draw huge houses? To me, Vince brought him in because Flair was a major star in the NWA and would be a great fit with Hogan, Savage, Warrior, Piper, etc. Flair wasn't asked to carry the ball for the WWF. He was given the WWF title because he could be trusted with a great match while Hogan had other obligations to fill. Flair wasn't asked to be a savior for the WWF.

So your argument is that Flair wasn't expected to be a huge draw in the WWF? Of course not because everyone knew he wasn't. Flair wasn't a huge draw, and nobody expected him to be so, as you said yourself. Flair was just a second fiddle guy at best. And no Flair wasn't billed as the savoir, you know why? He wasn't good enough to be. If WWF could have done that, they would've. Vince wasn't going to lose money. Once he saw what Flair was capable of, he let him go back. Showing Flair's true worth.


He was merely signed to a contract to get his mojo back. WCW on the other hand signed Flair because without him, their programs were terrible. Flair gave WCW credibility again and caused Ted Turner to invest millions upon millions of dollars in purchasing WCW. Hogan didn't cause Ted to do that. Flair did.

No Ted Turner just wanted a wrestling company, if Vince would've sold WWF, Turner would've bought it instead. It was just the fact JCP's were falling apart with flair at the top.


That's because they had an established audience already. Many factors played into JCP's demise. Flair isn't the cause of that.

That's just fucking bullshit. Flair is the exact reason that happened. Flair wasn't a national draw and JCP went national (which btw is considered the biggest mistake they made) Flair drew in the south, it's pretty much fact. When the NWA tried to get away from the territories and into the big time they fell apart. Why? Because Flair wasn't a national draw. Never really was. He was again at best a second tier guy.


Bad spending, Vince threatening to cut out Wrestlemania to cable companies if they carried Starrcade 87, and piss poor management caused that company to fail. Flair helped them tread water for close to five years before they finally went under and were bought by Ted Turner.

The bad spending they talk about is the choice to go national. Why weren't they able to go national? Because Flair wasn't a national draw. He was a b-rate star, it an B plus rate company.


And being highly regarded by your peers is the ultimate complement to be paid in any industry. Flair's reputation among wrestlers is unparalleled. And that carries more weight with me than not filling up an arena sometimes.

I think Misawa can claim the same thing. I don't see many Japanese wrestlers saying Ric Flair was their inspiration but I can tell you a bunch that say Misawa is theirs in America. Daniel Bryan, Cesaro, Samoa Joe, CM Punk, Chris Hero. Yeah I think Misawa is just as respected if not more respected than Flair world wide. And considering his death was covered by AAA, TNA, WWE, BCW, and world wide in about every important fed, most of which he was never associated with, I'd say that he's a HUGE f'n deal. I would say that your statement of "unparalleled" is just more crap from a flair mark.

It's...Baylariat!
05-06-2014, 03:25 AM
With all that's been said about Ric Flair, how can anyone on this forum think highly of guys like Jeff Hardy, RVD, and others that people overrate?

Flair was so influential on our industry and is widely respected to this day, yet there are folks on here who degrade him to a second-tier champion. Asinine is an apt word for those kinds of statements.

And there will be even more vitriol when Flair beats Rock. :D