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View Full Version : Intl. Region, Minneapolis Subregion, Second Round:(3)Andre the Giant vs.(14)Rikidozan


klunderbunker
04-11-2014, 11:30 PM
This is a second round match in the International Region, Minneapolis Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under Standard Wrestling Rules. It will be held at the Target Center in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

http://www.greenroofs.com/projects/target_center/target_center1.gif

http://www.caulifloweralleyclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Andre_the_Giant.png

#3. Andre the Giant

Vs.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rxTSEDU9d_A/TQly56Ok87I/AAAAAAAABpY/p3ip38gzuPc/s1600/rikidozan.jpg

#14. Rikidozan



Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Assume that all wrestlers are at full strength after their first round matches.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

Bernkastel
04-12-2014, 03:41 AM
Oh great joy. Andre versus the Japanese Hulk Hogan. Do you know what happened when Andre faced Hogan? He got slammed on his ass and pinned. Who did Rikidozan defeat? On nobody special... just Lou Thesz... in the states... for a major title. Thesz of course being the Hogan equivalent before Hogan was Hogan. And lesser men than Rikidozan have beaten Andre: Harley Race, Stan Hansen, Verne Gagne, Akira Maeda, Antonio Inoki, Ultimate Warrior.

This certainly would be Andre's match to lose. Why? Because Riki was undoubtedly the bigger star, had a much bigger legacy, and whose legacy affected the wrestling industry as a whole. Take Andre out of wrestling and it wouldn't really matter because wrestlers like Thesz and Sammartino were far bigger anyway. Some territories might have suffered but there'd still be a WWE. Hogan would still have his matches with Savage and Warrior and Undertaker becomes the greatest novelty wrestler ever.

On the other hand if you took Rikidozan out of wrestling there'd be no pro wresting in Japan. He popularized it there and founded the traditions and the titles, and trained the likes of Inoki and Giant Baba. Hogan doesn't become a world wide star because there wouldn't have been a Japanese audience for him to entertain, there'd be no supershow in North Korea promoting better ties between nations, there'd be no crossovers with WCW and Japanese wrestlers don't tour the United States, there'd be no ROH [since that shit is based off puro] and the likes of Punk and Daniel Bryan never make it the WWE without that platform. So yeah.. pretty severe backlash.

Rikidozan: bigger star, bigger draw, bigger legacy, bigger importance. He should and would go over Andre any day of the week.

Thriller Ant
04-12-2014, 12:23 PM
Oh great joy. Andre versus the Japanese Hulk Hogan. Do you know what happened when Andre faced Hogan? He got slammed on his ass and pinned. Who did Rikidozan defeat? On nobody special... just Lou Thesz... in the states... for a major title. Thesz of course being the Hogan equivalent before Hogan was Hogan. And lesser men than Rikidozan have beaten Andre: Harley Race, Stan Hansen, Verne Gagne, Akira Maeda, Antonio Inoki, Ultimate Warrior.

This certainly would be Andre's match to lose. Why? Because Riki was undoubtedly the bigger star, had a much bigger legacy, and whose legacy affected the wrestling industry as a whole. Take Andre out of wrestling and it wouldn't really matter because wrestlers like Thesz and Sammartino were far bigger anyway. Some territories might have suffered but there'd still be a WWE. Hogan would still have his matches with Savage and Warrior and Undertaker becomes the greatest novelty wrestler ever.

On the other hand if you took Rikidozan out of wrestling there'd be no pro wresting in Japan. He popularized it there and founded the traditions and the titles, and trained the likes of Inoki and Giant Baba. Hogan doesn't become a world wide star because there wouldn't have been a Japanese audience for him to entertain, there'd be no supershow in North Korea promoting better ties between nations, there'd be no crossovers with WCW and Japanese wrestlers don't tour the United States, there'd be no ROH [since that shit is based off puro] and the likes of Punk and Daniel Bryan never make it the WWE without that platform. So yeah.. pretty severe backlash.

Rikidozan: bigger star, bigger draw, bigger legacy, bigger importance. He should and would go over Andre any day of the week.

Alright, you have some really questionable assumptions in here.

1. You say WWF wouldn't have changed without Andre, but Andre, along with Hogan, is responsible for the biggest crowd in WWF/E history and one of biggest in pro wrestling history. Vince wasn't in as bad of shape around WrestleMania III as he was around the first one, but you can't just assume that everything would've been the same without that gate.

2. Let's say your assumption of ROH not existing without Rikidozan is correct. There were still indies before ROH, and many indy companies don't use a puro-based style. Indy wrestling has existed for much more than 12 years, and talents like CM Punk and Bryan Danielson still could've been discovered without ROH, just like many are today.

3. Rocky III is what made Hogan an international star, not wrestling for a couple years in Japan.

Without knowing too much about Rikidozan, a lot of these claims you are making sound pretty outlandish and have me leaning even more toward voting for Andre than I already was.

Bernkastel
04-12-2014, 01:06 PM
Alright, you have some really questionable assumptions in here.

1. You say WWF wouldn't have changed without Andre, but Andre, along with Hogan, is responsible for the biggest crowd in WWF/E history and one of biggest in pro wrestling history. Vince wasn't in as bad of shape around WrestleMania III as he was around the first one, but you can't just assume that everything would've been the same without that gate.

True. But I was outlining the fact that even without Andre, Hogan still would have had his feuds with Warrior and Savage. The WWE and Hulkamania still would have flourished. That's very minor compared to an entire style of wrestling maybe not being established and flourishing.

Let's say your assumption of ROH not existing without Rikidozan is correct.

What else would hey have based themselves off? ROH certainly wouldn't be the same company otherwise.

There were still indies before ROH, and many indy companies don't use a puro-based style.

And those promotions aren't anywhere near as big as NJPW or AJPW or NOAH. There's a valid reason why most talents choose to either go there or Mexico to work instead of local US promotions.


Indy wrestling has existed for much more than 12 years, and talents like CM Punk and Bryan Danielson still could've been discovered without ROH, just like many are today.

Without wrestling in Japan where would those two have honed their crafts? In hardcore death matches matches in IWA Midsouth or CZW, maybe Mexico? Most of the indy talent that WWE has picked up has come through companies like ROH that have either based themselves on puroresu customs or worked in Japan. Dean Ambrose is like the only guy I can think of in recent year that actually came from the former. Even talent coming through Mexico don't get picked up as often as talent coming through Japan.


Rocky III is what made Hogan an international star, not wrestling for a couple years in Japan.


Did I type international? I meant global. Wrestling for the Japanese helped make Hogan a global icon. The reach puroresu had throughout Asia and the rest of the world, helped make Hulk Hogan a name that everyone knew since he was already well known in the US and Canada.

Without knowing too much about Rikidozan, a lot of these claims you are making sound pretty outlandish and have me leaning even more toward voting for Andre than I already was.

Was Andre important? Yes. But that importance doesn't compare to someone that helped establish an entire style of wrestling - along with the companies, titles, traditions, and future talents that were to come - that maybe wouldn't have existed otherwise.

And that's just one part. Rikidozan was a hero to millions in his home country. He helped rebuild a sector of the economy with the revenue generated by the wrestling boom he started. As draw he was superior to Andre, his legacy as whole was superior to Andre's, his importance to the advancement of pro wrestling was superior to Andre's. Please do not vote based on favoritism. I implore anyone else sitting on the fence to reconsider and vote Rikidozan.

Bythedockofthebay
04-12-2014, 01:15 PM
Alright, you have some really questionable assumptions in here.

1. You say WWF wouldn't have changed without Andre, but Andre, along with Hogan, is responsible for the biggest crowd in WWF/E history and one of biggest in pro wrestling history. Vince wasn't in as bad of shape around WrestleMania III as he was around the first one, but you can't just assume that everything would've been the same without that gate.

No I don't but then against you're not comparing Andre to just another guy. You comparing him toe Rikidozan who by all means was huge in Japan. As big as anyone.


2. Let's say your assumption of ROH not existing without Rikidozan is correct. There were still indies before ROH, and many indy companies don't use a puro-based style. Indy wrestling has existed for much more than 12 years, and talents like CM Punk and Bryan Danielson still could've been discovered without ROH, just like many are today.

Without Rikidozan, there's no wrestling in Japan (and if there was it would've been a joke) Wrestling was popular since the 1800's across the board. It was never anything in Japan until Rikidozan came back and showed them how entertaining it could be. The fact is that without Rikidozan. There's no Big Van Vader, no Antonio Inoki, no Great Muta, possibly no Chris Benoit.. Which means the styles that CM Punk and Daniel Bryan adopted wouldn't exist. Meaning they very well may not. That said I'd rather keep this simple.


3. Rocky III is what made Hogan an international star, not wrestling for a couple years in Japan.

Well that may be true but as far as pop culture goes Dozan stared in over 20 movies in his time, not to mention he had a documentary made about his life long his death


Without knowing too much about Rikidozan, a lot of these claims you are making sound pretty outlandish and have me leaning even more toward voting for Andre than I already was.

Well, he was a movie star (even played himself in some), the reason why there is Japanese wrestling, he's remains relevant and is considered an Icon even though he died long ago. He beat Lou Thesz clean in AMERICA, and I have no problem believing that he'd do the same to Andre.

Rainbow Yaz
04-12-2014, 09:51 PM
Andre is from France. France allied with the US in World War 2. The US nuked Japan in World War 2. Rikidozan is from Japan. History is on Andre's side here folks.

So you say, well Yazzy I won't like history. Okay, I can dig that, as I hate logic. Nothing more than the whore sister of mathematics that logic is. Allow me to sway you with this.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MktFkE1DNNA/T7g5eb__s_I/AAAAAAAAFiU/0NxIqhUWCdU/s1600/godzilla.jpg

That is fucking Godzilla. He sends Japanese men running in terror with a warm trail of piss trailing behind them.

https://scottfarrisdesign.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/battle-of-the-giants-sdf-2014.jpg

That is Andre the Giant slugging Godzilla right in his cocksucker while the Staypuft Marshmallow Man watches in awe with a giant erection. Rikidozan would be so grateful for Andre fighting off Godzilla that he would lie down for him, and Andre would show him the French Alps.

klunderbunker
04-12-2014, 10:06 PM
Without getting into this whole thing, I'd like to point something out.

Ech said that without Rikidozan, there is no ROH. I'm not sure why this is supposed to mean something, because at the end of the day, ROH is a very distant third biggest wrestling company in America. It's not as big as ECW was, it's nowhere near as influential as ECW was, it's nowhere near close to what TNA is now. It's a feeder system to WWE and TNA, not a major national promotion. It's bigger than all the other indies at the moment, but that's not exactly something to write home about.

The Brain
04-12-2014, 11:09 PM
I don't know that Rikidozan is unquestionably a bigger star than Andre The Giant. In fact I think Andre might be in the top three of most famous wrestlers all time. Everybody knows who Andre The Giant was. Some of you may have noticed I hang out in the old school section a lot. Andre is mentioned frequently. The name Rikidozan never comes up. In fact I'm willing to bet if not for this tournament most people on this forum would have never heard of Rikidozan. I appreciate that the tournament gives us the opportunity to learn about some guys we otherwise wouldn't know and I have no problem voting for those guys over lesser talents. Not over Andre though. Andre was one of the biggest names of my lifetime despite being well past his prime by the time I started watching. I'm not voting for Sadaharu Oh over Babe Ruth and I'm not voting Rikidozan over Andre The Giant. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

HBsam31
04-14-2014, 03:08 AM
I voted Andre because he is an icon of Wrestling. He and Hogan were what I always thought of when wrestling came up. I don't know enough about Rikidozan I will admit, but for me Andre deserves to go to the next round.

Bernkastel
04-14-2014, 04:37 AM
Without getting into this whole thing, I'd like to point something out.

Ech said that without Rikidozan, there is no ROH. I'm not sure why this is supposed to mean something, because at the end of the day, ROH is a very distant third biggest wrestling company in America. It's not as big as ECW was, it's nowhere near as influential as ECW was, it's nowhere near close to what TNA is now. It's a feeder system to WWE and TNA, not a major national promotion. It's bigger than all the other indies at the moment, but that's not exactly something to write home about.

ROH isn't that big of a promotion, but think about how the promotion has affected the WWE and TNA. Plenty of big stars like Punk, Bryan, Aries, half the Shield and many others got their start in ROH. And if they weren't there they were working themselves to death in Japan. Andre himself honed his skills in Japan and it helped make him an even bigger star. Without Rikidozan puroresu doesn't exist. He created the platform, elevated it, and trained his successors.

His influence and legacy are much bigger than Andre's. That cannot be denied. Even as a draw he was still much bigger. If Lou Thesz jobbed for Rickidozan and Andre jobbed to Inoki; then you can surely bet Andre would job to Rikidozan.

Tastycles
04-14-2014, 07:00 AM
Rikidozan is no doubt a monumentally big name in the history of wrestling, and yes he did beat Thesz to launch a super popular period of wrestling in Japan. However, Rikidozan's whole schtick was that he was Japanese (he was actually Korean) and that he was an anti-American in order to capitalise on the sentiment in Japan, who had recently lost the war and two of their four biggest cities to the USA. In America, that kind of popularity would not hold water. This is exactly the sort of match where the French face would beat the Anti-American guy while the crowd shouted U-S-A! U-S-A! a la Christian vs Del Rio or whatever. Andre is a bigger star than Rikidozan in my opinion and would win here.

Bernkastel
04-14-2014, 07:08 AM
Rikidozan is no doubt a monumentally big name in the history of wrestling, and yes he did beat Thesz to launch a super popular period of wrestling in Japan. However, Rikidozan's whole schtick was that he was Japanese (he was actually Korean) and that he was an anti-American in order to capitalise on the sentiment in Japan, who had recently lost the war and two of their four biggest cities to the USA. [/b]In America, that kind of popularity would not hold water.[/B] This is exactly the sort of match where the French face would beat the Anti-American guy while the crowd shouted U-S-A! U-S-A! a la Christian vs Del Rio or whatever. Andre is a bigger star than Rikidozan in my opinion and would win here.

You have got to be kidding me. Hulk Hogan, what was his gimmick? A real American. And what did he do? He fought for the rights of every man. Hogan defended the pride of America by defeating foreign bad guys all the damn time. That's what he stood for. He was exactly the same as Rikidozan. Hogan vs Iron Shiek and Slaughter are two well known examples.

And no. Andre's isn't the bigger star. Not even close.

Tastycles
04-14-2014, 07:12 AM
You have got to be kidding me. Hulk Hogan, what was his gimmick? A real American. And what did he do? He fought for the rights of every man. Hogan defended the pride of America by defeating foreign bad guys all the damn time. That's what he stood for. He was exactly the same as Rikidozan. Hogan vs Iron Shiek and Slaughter are two well known examples.

And no. Andre's isn't the bigger star. Not even close.

Firstly, I meant an Anti-American sentiment, which is what Rikidozan had, he wouldn't suddenly become American in America.

Secondly, it's totally different anyway.

In what world was Hogan's popularity based on the unpopularity of an occupying army?

I don't remember a time when Iranian soldiers were patrolling the streets of New York city or when the Iraqi air force nuked Chicago off the map. That's what happened in Japan, and that's why the guy who beat the American was popular. A US audience has never experienced anything like that so they would not relate to the character.

Bernkastel
04-14-2014, 07:19 AM
Firstly, I meant an Anti-American sentiment, which is what Rikidozan had, he wouldn't suddenly become American in America.

Secondly, it's totally different anyway.

In what world was Hogan's popularity based on the unpopularity of an occupying army?

That's not my point. My point is that Hogan defended the integrity of America and fans loved him for doing so. Rikidozan defended the integrity of Japan and fans loved him for doing so.

I don't remember a time when Iranian soldiers were patrolling the streets of New York city or when the Iraqi air force nuked Chicago off the map. That's what happened in Japan, and that's why the guy who beat the American was popular. A US audience has never experienced anything like that so they would not relate to the character.

Again, not the point. But if you want to get technical Hogan versus Slaughter was all about rubbing salt into the wounds of the American public at the time. Are you going to say that Hogan was only over in that feud because of the situation? Of course not. So why would it be any different for Rikidozan? The man was a huge draw, and had a huge effect on the legacy of pro wrestling. A novelty like Andre just doesn't compare.

George Steele's Barber
04-14-2014, 08:53 AM
That's not my point. My point is that Hogan defended the integrity of America and fans loved him for doing so. Rikidozan defended the integrity of Japan and fans loved him for doing so.



Again, not the point. But if you want to get technical Hogan versus Slaughter was all about rubbing salt into the wounds of the American public at the time. Are you going to say that Hogan was only over in that feud because of the situation? Of course not. So why would it be any different for Rikidozan? The man was a huge draw, and had a huge effect on the legacy of pro wrestling. A novelty like Andre just doesn't compare.

Just because someone invented the gun doesn't mean he is a great shot or can compete with a guy with a bazooka. Look at Rikidozan's move set and finishers. They are useless against a giant.

Bernkastel
04-14-2014, 09:02 AM
Just because someone invented the gun doesn't mean he is a great shot or can compete with a guy with a bazooka. Look at Rikidozan's move set and finishers. They are useless against a giant.

Kayfabe can be modified to fit circumstances. As a powerhouse Rikidozan could have easily adapted. Such a view is subjective as saying that Andre was more successful because he just so happened to tour everywhere. Well so did Rikidozan. And he accomplished more. He defeated the greatest star in the world on his home turf. And unlike Andre he wasn't built up to lose either.

klunderbunker
04-14-2014, 12:16 PM
ROH isn't that big of a promotion, but think about how the promotion has affected the WWE and TNA. Plenty of big stars like Punk, Bryan, Aries, half the Shield and many others got their start in ROH. And if they weren't there they were working themselves to death in Japan. Andre himself honed his skills in Japan and it helped make him an even bigger star. Without Rikidozan puroresu doesn't exist. He created the platform, elevated it, and trained his successors.

His influence and legacy are much bigger than Andre's. That cannot be denied. Even as a draw he was still much bigger. If Lou Thesz jobbed for Rickidozan and Andre jobbed to Inoki; then you can surely bet Andre would job to Rikidozan.

I agree with what someone said earlier: those guys would have gotten to WWE based on their work elsewhere. TNA would have signed a lot of them and they would have wound up in WWE anyway. ROH was a platform for them, but the scouts would have picked up on them at some point.

Bythedockofthebay
04-14-2014, 12:27 PM
I agree with what someone said earlier: those guys would have gotten to WWE based on their work elsewhere. TNA would have signed a lot of them and they would have wound up in WWE anyway. ROH was a platform for them, but the scouts would have picked up on them at some point.

still the stiff style , and moves that these guys use wouldn't have been around. Meaning I doubt that's as simple as you make it out to be. Guys like Daniel Bryan, have admitted that they wanted to make a life in Japan, and without that option they may have not had the same dream, thus their existence as superstars would be at the very least in doubt.

klunderbunker
04-14-2014, 12:33 PM
still the stiff style , and moves that these guys use wouldn't have been around. Meaning I doubt that's as simple as you make it out to be. Guys like Daniel Bryan, have admitted that they wanted to make a life in Japan, and without that option they may have not had the same dream, thus their existence as superstars would be at the very least in doubt.

Ah you mean the stiff style that results in more injuries, the stupidity that is getting kicked in the face and screaming at the other guy instead of selling, forearm battles and whatever other nonsense ROH fans say IS WRESTLING. Based on that, I'm certainly voting for Andre now.

Bythedockofthebay
04-14-2014, 12:38 PM
Ah you mean the stiff style that results in more injuries, the stupidity that is getting kicked in the face and screaming at the other guy instead of selling, forearm battles and whatever other nonsense ROH fans say IS WRESTLING. Based on that, I'm certainly voting for Andre now.

Lol, no I mean the stuff that allows smaller guys like punk and bryan look like they can actually do damage. And please dont compare what Japan did to what ROH does. Sure there are some things similar but no one in ROH is close to some of the greats from Japan.

klunderbunker
04-14-2014, 12:47 PM
I question how "great" some of those Japanese guys are but that's another story for later.

GUys like Bryan and Punk didn't just get over because of the Japanese stuff. People like Randy Savage, and Ricky Steamboat showed what people that size can do in America and did it in matches that entertain me far more than most of the Japanese guys did. We'll also ignore that those people got over far more for their ability to talk rather than their in ring work.

Bythedockofthebay
04-14-2014, 12:53 PM
I question how "great" some of those Japanese guys are but that's another story for later.

GUys like Bryan and Punk didn't just get over because of the Japanese stuff. People like Randy Savage, and Ricky Steamboat showed what people that size can do in America and did it in matches that entertain me far more than most of the Japanese guys did. We'll also ignore that those people got over far more for their ability to talk rather than their in ring work.

bryan, joe, Vader, all those guys didn't get over based on talking. Not saying they're awful but Japan has helped tons of guys stay afloat before becoming stars. Helping them making a living, and helped the progression of wrestling as much as any other country imo

klunderbunker
04-14-2014, 12:55 PM
bryan, joe, Vader, all those guys didn't get over based on talking. Not saying they're awful but Japan has helped tons of guys stay afloat before becoming stars. Helping them making a living, and helped the progression of wrestling as much as any other country imo

Daniel Bryan went from a midcard guy to winning in the main event of Wrestlemania based on his promos more than anything else. Vader got over based on destroying Sting, in America. Japan was a factor, but as with almost every major star in the world, they got far bigger in America than anywhere else.

Poop Master Flex
04-14-2014, 12:58 PM
Here's the thing, Rikidozan may be more important in the history of professional wrestling but he was NOT a bigger star than Andre and he was NOT more well known than Andre, even people who have never seen a wrestling match know who Andre the Giant is, even if its from the Princess Bride and "Andre the Giant has a Posse". Andre was a tremendous draw basically doing the carnival career travelling around the world because people wanted to see a legit giant, his physical presence was something that had to be seen.

Now Rikidozan was a big star as well, got to pin Lou Thesz and was a great face in Japan while being a great heel in America, was also a great face and pretty much built Japanese Wrestling as well as gearing it for the future by training Inoki and Baba. Truth be told if this match was in Japan Rikidizan would win no question, Andre has went down to big stars more than once but I don't think that would matter in Minnesota.

Lets be honest, Minnesota isn't a place where Rikidozan is very well known, its AWA country and Rikidozan pretty much stuck with NWA. When Andre lost in his prime it wasn't often and it was almost always to a home town guy or a territorial hero, Rikidozan does not fall into either category in Minnesota, he's certainly a big enough star to beat Andre but where the match is placed hurts him. I'm not gonna downplay Rikidozan's significance to wrestling but he isn't beating Andre in Minnesota, I just don't see it happening.

Bythedockofthebay
04-14-2014, 01:20 PM
Daniel Bryan went from a midcard guy to winning in the main event of Wrestlemania based on his promos more than anything else. Vader got over based on destroying Sting, in America. Japan was a factor, but as with almost every major star in the world, they got far bigger in America than anywhere else.

Vader wouldn't even have been a character if it wasn't for Japan so he never gets over in WCW without that. And it was NJPW's agreement with WCW that got him in the door and view as a monster before he even destroyed sting. And Vader was bigger in Japan than here. He was infact a bigger draw in Japan as well.

Bernkastel
04-14-2014, 01:36 PM
I question how "great" some of those Japanese guys are but that's another story for later.

Awesome. I question how great the likes of Austin/Rock/Cena are all the time.

GUys like Bryan and Punk didn't just get over because of the Japanese stuff.

Where else would they go? What other medium would they have to hone their skills? Mexico? They'd have to spend allot of time in WWE farm promotions honing a very likely different craft. The strong style has it's roots in Inoki, who got them from Rikidozan. So small guys would be like Thesz in the 50's. All technique and no huge size or charisma. Meaning they don't get far in today's American product.


People like Randy Savage, and Ricky Steamboat showed what people that size can do in America and did it in matches that entertain me far more than most of the Japanese guys did. We'll also ignore that those people got over far more for their ability to talk rather than their in ring work.

You are comparing apples to oranges. What American audiences expect to see from their wrestlers is very different from what Japanese audiences expect to see from their wrestlers. That's why the likes of Andre and Hogan worked different styles in Japan.

And with Rikidozan it wouldn't be any different. He'd knock the big man around and keep him grounded. He held his own against a Thesz in hour long bouts regularly. And lesser men than that have rendered Andre helpless.

klunderbunker
04-14-2014, 01:42 PM
Vader wouldn't even have been a character if it wasn't for Japan so he never gets over in WCW without that. And it was NJPW's agreement with WCW that got him in the door and view as a monster before he even destroyed sting. And Vader was bigger in Japan than here. He was infact a bigger draw in Japan as well.

His AWA work where he was basically Vader under a different name says otherwise. I think you're giving too much credit to Japan as the only path these guys have to the top. They were going to be big stars no matter what, as most American fans don't care about Japan at all and probably don't know what happens over there.

klunderbunker
04-14-2014, 01:44 PM
Where else would they go? What other medium would they have to hone their skills? Mexico? They'd have to spend allot of time in WWE farm promotions honing a very likely different craft. The strong style has it's roots in Inoki, who got them from Rikidozan. So small guys would be like Thesz in the 50's. All technique and no huge size or charisma. Meaning they don't get far in today's American product.

Uh....the American indy scene, where they got over?

We'll also ignore that strong style is about as anti-wrestling as you can get and one of the worst things to ever happen.




You are comparing apples to oranges. What American audiences expect to see from their wrestlers is very different from what Japanese audiences expect to see from their wrestlers. That's why the likes of Andre and Hogan worked different styles in Japan.

And with Rikidozan it wouldn't be any different. He'd knock the big man around and keep him grounded. He held his own against a Thesz in hour long bouts regularly. And lesser men than that have rendered Andre helpless.

It's also why the money and top stars are in America. It certainly is a more entertaining style, and at the end of the day the majority of fans seem to care for the American style. Yeah there are talented guys in Japan that can put on very entertaining matches, but overall the fans are always going to go for the drama and characters instead of the in ring work.

Bernkastel
04-14-2014, 01:46 PM
Lets be honest, Minnesota isn't a place where Rikidozan is very well known, its AWA country and Rikidozan pretty much stuck with NWA. When Andre lost in his prime it wasn't often and it was almost always to a home town guy or a territorial hero, Rikidozan does not fall into either category in Minnesota, he's certainly a big enough star to beat Andre but where the match is placed hurts him. I'm not gonna downplay Rikidozan's significance to wrestling but he isn't beating Andre in Minnesota, I just don't see it happening.

If your decision comes down to relative location then try treating the location as something neutral. If you think Andre would defeat Rikidozan in most places in the world then vote that way. If you think Rikidozan would defeat Andre in more places than that then vote the opposite. When Andre toured Japan he lost regularly, so that's out. Rikidozan was quite successful in NWA and NWA based promotions so those are out. If Andre just has the AWA as his ground point and Rikidozan has the NWA/Japan/Northwest pinned down... it seems to me that Andre is the one outgunned here.

Bythedockofthebay
04-14-2014, 01:50 PM
His AWA work where he was basically Vader under a different name says otherwise. I think you're giving too much credit to Japan as the only path these guys have to the top. They were going to be big stars no matter what, as most American fans don't care about Japan at all and probably don't know what happens over there.

Oh but WCW/NWA clearly has cared about Japan. Muta, Inoki, Rikidozan, Chono, all prove that insanely incorrect as they've all been bit/ HUGE in the states and their work in Japan was talked about constantly. Not to mention people like Liger. You're just ignoring the Japanese wrestling appeal because it doesn't fit you.

Not to mention it's not like Andre was a talker or that safe. We are talking about a guy that was drunk quite a bit, not to mention you're talking about how "unsafe" Japan when you have the attitude era over here which did wonders for guys like foley, funk, and benoit.

klunderbunker
04-14-2014, 01:52 PM
Oh but WCW/NWA clearly has cared about Japan. Muta, Inoki, Rikidozan, Chono, all prove that insanely incorrect as they've all been bit/ HUGE in the states and their work in Japan was talked about constantly. Not to mention people like Liger. You're just ignoring the Japanese wrestling appeal because it doesn't fit you.

Not to mention it's not like Andre was a talker or that safe. We are talking about a guy that was drunk quite a bit, not to mention you're talking about how "unsafe" Japan when you have the attitude era over here which did wonders for guys like foley, funk, and benoit.

Yes they did and look at where the NWA is now. Late 1992 when they started looking more to Japan is a low point for the promotion, though that's far less about the Japanese talent and more about the way the company was run. Also, Muta is the only one of those that was huge in America. Chono was there and then left with next to no fanfare.

You misunderstood part of what I said. I don't find the Japanese guys unsafe. I find the ROH and most indy guys unsafe.

Bernkastel
04-14-2014, 01:57 PM
Uh....the American indy scene, where they got over?

What indy scene? Most people that are any good get fed into a promotion the level of ROH or CHIKARA before they get called to a WWE farm promotion. maybe if this were 20 years ago, but local indy wrestling promotions are a niche now.

We'll also ignore that strong style is about as anti-wrestling as you can get and one of the worst things to ever happen.

Yes, to an American fan strong style doesn't make any sense. To a Japanese fan it makes perfect sense. And it was popular and remains popular today.

It's also why the money and top stars are in America.

That's because WWE is the only global promotion in 2014. In the 90's they were still a national promotion. NJPW and AJPW ere putting up comparable numbers to Wrestlemania and Starrcade on their big shows regularly.

And it's a moot point considering we're discussing two guys with primes from way before that.

It certainly is a more entertaining style

That's subjective. I like both equally.

and at the end of the day the majority of fans seem to care for the American style.

Maybe based on today's standards, but this isn't true about anything from 20 years ago. Maybe not even 10 years ago.

Yeah there are talented guys in Japan that can put on very entertaining matches, but overall the fans are always going to go for the drama and characters instead of the in ring work.

AJPW had drama/story lines/and emotion. NJPW didn't. It was mostly based on shoot style like back in the 40's and 50's. Both were equally as successful for many decades. Same with NOAH and Dragon Gate.

Bythedockofthebay
04-14-2014, 02:02 PM
Uh....the American indy scene, where they got over?

We'll also ignore that strong style is about as anti-wrestling as you can get and one of the worst things to ever happen.

That's so wrong it's not even close to true. Chair shots, Table spots, flying off titan trons. Anything from the 90's over here is basically bullshit that caused deaths and brain damage. Not to mention the effects of steroids on the hearts of young wrestlers in conjunction with pain pills. I don't know many jacked up Japanese wrestlers.





It's also why the money and top stars are in America. It certainly is a more entertaining style, and at the end of the day the majority of fans seem to care for the American style. Yeah there are talented guys in Japan that can put on very entertaining matches, but overall the fans are always going to go for the drama and characters instead of the in ring work.

Again not true, up until the mid 90's you could make a better life in japan than over here. Being a technical wrestler over there was a bigger deal in Japan than it ever was here. Not to mention the money is here based on Japan's shit economy for the most part. Not to mention during "ANDRE'S prime" it was more about wrestling than showmanship as well.

klunderbunker
04-14-2014, 02:05 PM
What indy scene? Most people that are any good get fed into a promotion the level of ROH or CHIKARA before they get called to a WWE farm promotion. maybe if this were 20 years ago, but local indy wrestling promotions are a niche now.

ECW, IWA-MS, OVW, HWA, Memphis, MCW. I could go on but I think you get the point.


Yes, to an American fan strong style doesn't make any sense. To a Japanese fan it makes perfect sense. And it was popular and remains popular today.

Yes it does, to far smaller audiences as a whole. Hence why Andre is a much bigger star and should go on here.

That's because WWE is the only global promotion in 2014. In the 90's they were still a national promotion. NJPW and AJPW ere putting up comparable numbers to Wrestlemania and Starrcade on their big shows regularly.

Really? Did I imagine those British PPVs, Raws from Germany and Wrestlemania VI in Canada? That sounds pretty international to me.


Maybe based on today's standards, but this isn't true about anything from 20 years ago. Maybe not even 10 years ago.

Really? I was at an ROH show on April 4 and saw about 2000 people there. I saw about 35 times that for an American style show two days later.

Advantage: American style.

AJPW had drama/story lines/and emotion. NJPW didn't. It was mostly based on shoot style like back in the 40's and 50's. Both were equally as successful for many decades. Same with NOAH and Dragon Gate.

I'd think Andre could hold his own in a shoot style just fine, despite the fact that this isn't shoot style.

klunderbunker
04-14-2014, 02:08 PM
That's so wrong it's not even close to true. Chair shots, Table spots, flying off titan trons. Anything from the 90's over here is basically bullshit that caused deaths and brain damage. Not to mention the effects of steroids on the hearts of young wrestlers in conjunction with pain pills. I don't know many jacked up Japanese wrestlers.

I don't consider the violent stuff to be wrestling which I why I omitted it. I'm talking about listening to imbeciles chant THIS IS WRESTLING when they see people get hit with 15 forearms to the head and just growl.

Again not true, up until the mid 90's you could make a better life in japan than over here. Being a technical wrestler over there was a bigger deal in Japan than it ever was here. Not to mention the money is here based on Japan's shit economy for the most part. Not to mention during "ANDRE'S prime" it was more about wrestling than showmanship as well.

So now we're bringing in international economics? I think we're stretching a bit at this point.

Here's what it boils down to. Andre was a big star in America, Japan, and elsewhere around the world. Rikidozan is a bigger star in Japan than Andre was elsewhere, but Andre is bigger overall.

Bythedockofthebay
04-14-2014, 02:19 PM
I don't consider the violent stuff to be wrestling which I why I omitted it. I'm talking about listening to imbeciles chant THIS IS WRESTLING when they see people get hit with 15 forearms to the head and just growl.

Well those chants aren't from Japan considering their crowds hardly ever chant. I also expect you to vote against Austin since he's a guy that used a chair or chairs used in most of his biggest matches, and that's not even wrestling.


So now we're bringing in international economics? I think we're stretching a bit at this point.

Here's what it boils down to. Andre was a big star in America, Japan, and elsewhere around the world. Rikidozan is a bigger star in Japan than Andre was elsewhere, but Andre is bigger overall.

Well considering in that economy Misawa and his ilk where drawing 16,600 monthly/weekly at times. And those crowds can be compared to Wrestlemania crowds of the same era in the 1990's. Thesz put over Rikidozan in the states, I think you're overblowing your argument here. Thesz was huge, for an international guy to come overseas and beat him in his prime in the states, tells you exactly how huge Dozan was. And not just in Japan but world wide.

klunderbunker
04-14-2014, 02:20 PM
Well those chants aren't from Japan considering their crowds hardly ever chant.

I'm aware. Again, talking about indy wrestling. Try to keep up.

Well considering in that economy Misawa and his ilk where drawing 16,600 monthly/weekly at times. And those crowds can be compared to Wrestlemania crowds of the same era in the 1990's. Thesz put over Rikidozan in the states, I think you're overblowing your argument here. Thesz was huge, for an international guy to come overseas and beat him in his prime in the states, tells you exactly how huge Dozan was. And not just in Japan but world wide.

Rikidozan is indeed a big star and very influential as I've said many times. He's simply not as big of a star as Andre worldwide.

Bernkastel
04-14-2014, 02:27 PM
ECW, IWA-MS, OVW, HWA, Memphis, MCW. I could go on but I think you get the point.

NJPW, JWA, AJPW, and NOAH were all bigger than any of those. Half of those were pushing hardcore and ultraviolet hardcore. I wonder why WWE never called up Ian Rotten or New Jack. Is that what you'd want for Punk and Bryan in the absence of puro?

Yes it does, to far smaller audiences as a whole. Hence why Andre is a much bigger star and should go on here.

For house shows. Not big events. And based on that logic Kofi, who is major player within a globally known WWE and is known by a global audience, should beat Dusty Rhodes, who wasn't.

The waves Andre made as a journeyman were nothing compared to the tsunami Rikidzan caused in the home country. Quality > quantity. And perhaps that's a personal bias of mine.

Really? Did I imagine those British PPVs, Raws from Germany and Wrestlemania VI in Canada? That sounds pretty international to me.

Great. Japanese promotions were doing the same thing. Moot point. None of which would have happened without Rikidozan to prepare that stage in the first place. Did Andre actually help establish any stages by himself or was he just a major supporting player? It was the latter.

Really? I was at an ROH show on April 4 and saw about 2000 people there. I saw about 35 times that for an American style show two days later.

Advantage: American style.

You've missed my point. My point was ROH was primarily influenced by Japanese wrestling. Influence that would not be there if it weren't for Rikidozan. WWE, WCW, and TNA have all drawn influence from Japan as well. Thanks Rikidozan.

I'd think Andre could hold his own in a shoot style just fine, despite the fact that this isn't shoot style.

Inoki has a win record of 61% against Andre. He jobbed regularly in NJPW. And you're right. This isn't a shoot because no styles of any kind are involved. This is a debate on which guy is the bigger legend and deserves to more forward in this mock tournament. Clearly that's Rikidozan.

Bythedockofthebay
04-14-2014, 02:31 PM
Wait wait Inoki beat Andre that much? and this is a debate? Inoki isn't anywhere near Rikidozan. If Inoki went over Andre not only could Rikidozan, but he WOULD go over Andre

klunderbunker
04-14-2014, 02:34 PM
NJPW, JWA, AJPW, and NOAH were all bigger than any of those. Half of those were pushing hardcore and ultraviolet hardcore. I wonder why WWE never called up Ian Rotten or New Jack. Is that what you'd want for Punk and Bryan in the absence of puro?

OVW, HWA and Memphis were all WWF farm systems at one point or another and not pushing hardcore style. Those are the companies that gave you John Cena, Randy Orton, Batista, Brock Lesnar and more, despite the fact that at least the first two started elsewhere. Again: talent will make it to the big time despite where they start.



For house shows. Not big events. And based on that logic Kofi, who is major player within a globally known WWE and is known by a global audience, should beat Dusty Rhodes, who wasn't.

You don't think Dusty Rhodes is known to a worldwide audience? Come on man you're smarter than that.

The waves Andre made as a journeyman were nothing compared to the tsunami Rikidzan caused in the home country. Quality > quantity. And perhaps that's a personal bias of mine.

Wrestlemania 3 > everything Rikidozan did in Japan.

Great. Japanese promotions were doing the same thing. Moot point. None of which would have happened without Rikidozan to prepare that stage in the first place. Did Andre actually help establish any stages by himself or was he just a major supporting player? It was the latter.

I'd love to see where those promotions were running America and Europe.

Major supporting player in an international company at the peak of wrestling in America > the top guy in Japan.

Not to mention February 5, 1988 on NBC with Hogan vs. Andre II drawing 33 million people to prime time American television, good for over 1/10 of a far bigger audience than Japan. If that's not establishing something, I don't know what is.

You've missed my point. My point was ROH was primarily influenced by Japanese wrestling. Influence that would not be there if it weren't for Rikidozan. WWE, WCW, and TNA have all drawn influence from Japan as well. Thanks Rikidozan.

Those companies have drawn some influence yeah, but not the majority of it or even a large part by any stretch.

Inoki has a win record of 61% against Andre. He jobbed regularly in NJPW. And you're right. This isn't a shoot because no styles of any kind are involved. This is a debate on which guy is the bigger legend and deserves to more forward in this mock tournament. Clearly that's Rikidozan.

Clearly you aren't as educated on this as I thought you were.

Poop Master Flex
04-14-2014, 02:54 PM
If your decision comes down to relative location then try treating the location as something neutral. If you think Andre would defeat Rikidozan in most places in the world then vote that way. If you think Rikidozan would defeat Andre in more places than that then vote the opposite. When Andre toured Japan he lost regularly, so that's out. Rikidozan was quite successful in NWA and NWA based promotions so those are out. If Andre just has the AWA as his ground point and Rikidozan has the NWA/Japan/Northwest pinned down... it seems to me that Andre is the one outgunned here.

Even though it doesn't matter because the match is in Minneapolis I really don't think he's winning in all NWA based promotions, I don't think he's winning in most NWA based promotions either, I see Rikidozan beating him in the West coast promotions but I don't see him winning in places like Texas, or in the eastern states lie Georgia. Likewise I don't see him winning in places like Europe either. Rikidozan would take most of the Pacific but I don't see him taking much else than that. There's a whole big chunk of the world that isn't familiar with Rikidozan but everyone's familiar with Andre so he's gonna win in most places.

Bernkastel
04-14-2014, 03:00 PM
OVW, HWA and Memphis were all WWF farm systems at one point or another and not pushing hardcore style. Those are the companies that gave you John Cena, Randy Orton, Batista, Brock Lesnar and more, despite the fact that at least the first two started elsewhere. Again: talent will make it to the big time despite where they start.

True statement. But that doesn't mean that history would repeat itself either. Who knows were the likes of Punk and Byran would be in the absence of puroresu. The point is Rikidozan gave so any wrestlers a stage to hone their skills to better their own legacies; Andre included. That alone makes him much more important to the industry.

You don't think Dusty Rhodes is known to a worldwide audience? Come on man you're smarter than that.

He is in 2014. Probably doubtful he was in the 80's. And if he was it's because he worked on a stage that Rikidozan created that allowed him to be introduced to Asian audiences. Unless you think the US/Canada/Europe constitutes "the world."

Wrestlemania 3 > everything Rikidozan did in Japan.

Inoki/NJPW/WCW drew 150,000 in North Korea. An event made possible through the ties between nations and the stage that Rikidozan helped create. Again, thanks Rikidozan.

I'd love to see where those promotions were running America and Europe.

WCW/NJPW and JWA/NWA collaborations say hi.

Major supporting player in an international company at the peak of wrestling in America > the top guy in Japan.

Nope. Not when the Japanese promotions were also international by your definition.

Not to mention February 5, 1988 on NBC with Hogan vs. Andre II drawing 33 million people to prime time American television, good for over 1/10 of a far bigger audience than Japan. If that's not establishing something, I don't know what is.

Rikidozan drew an 87.0 television rating with Lou Thesz. And his match with Destroyer drew an 67.0 television rating. If anything Riki drew more with less to work with. For me that counts as a greater accomplishment.

Those companies have drawn some influence yeah, but not the majority of it or even a large part by any stretch.

As much as puro drew from them.

Clearly you aren't as educated on this as I thought you were.

I'm plenty educated. Thanks. I just see to express my views differently to engage in such debates.

klunderbunker
04-14-2014, 03:05 PM
True statement. But that doesn't mean that history would repeat itself either. Who knows were the likes of Punk and Byran would be in the absence of puroresu. The point is Rikidozan gave so any wrestlers a stage to hone their skills to better their own legacies; Andre included. That alone makes him much more important to the industry.

A stage which they didn't need due to the other promotions listed which were very much American style. I agree it played a role, but it wasn't a vital one.

He is in 2014. He doubtful he was in the 80's. And if he was it's because he worked on a stage that Rikidozan created that allowed him to be introduced to Asian audiences.

This is why I question how good you are at this. The NWA World Title was a huge deal back then and made you an international star.



Inoki/NJPW/WCW drew 150,000 in North Korea. An event made possible through the ties between nations and the stage that Rikidozan helped create. Again, thanks Rikidozan.

I'd bet a lot of money it was more due to "go to this show or have bullets in your head" than Rikidozan.



WCW/NJPW and JWA/NWA collaborations say hi.

Wow you really are stretching. Some of the least important shows in WCW history (so much so that they're not even on the Network) really do match up with Wrestlemania III dude.

Nope. Not when the Japanese promotions were also international by your definition.

When did I define it that way?

Rikidozan drew an 87.0 television rating with Lou Thesz. And his match with Destroyer drew an 67.0 television rating. If anything Riki drew more with less to work with. For me that counts as a greater accomplishment.

Again, smaller audience when there were far fewer options to pick from.

I'm plenty educated. Thanks. I just see to express my views differently.

You're claiming that Japanese wrestling is the reason a lot of WWE stars are where they are now. That puts you more into the "Japan is awesome, the rest of the world just isn't as good" camp, which isn't what I would call all that incredible.

Bernkastel
04-14-2014, 03:15 PM
A stage which they didn't need due to the other promotions listed which were very much American style. I agree it played a role, but it wasn't a vital one.

It play a vital one because who knows where'd the people that used that stage to boost their careers would be if it didn't exist. Certainly there'd be no world wide stars. Only international one's.

This is why I question how good you are at this. The NWA World Title was a huge deal back then and made you an international star.

I've been on a world scale; not an international scale.

I'd bet a lot of money it was more due to "go to this show or have bullets in your head" than Rikidozan.

Possibly, but the event was only allowed to take place because it was profitable. Those profits used as a sign of peace.

When did I define it that way?

Simply speaking Rikidozan himself was an international star. And the stage he built was also international because it produced other international stars that helped promote wresting on a global scale.

Again, smaller audience when there were far fewer options to pick from.

In the late 40's. Sure. That shouldn't be a detriment to him.

You're claiming that Japanese wrestling is the reason a lot of WWE stars are where they are now. That puts you more into the "Japan is awesome, the rest of the world just isn't as good" camp, which isn't what I would call all that incredible.

I claimed it was helpful in getting them to where they are now in the speed that they did, and the personas and workmanship they adapted from the Japanese styles they learned. It certainly wasn't the only reason, as you pointed out. But without it those superstars would highly likely not be the same. Their current successes would be questionable because of that. That's my point.

deem
04-16-2014, 07:08 AM
I'll keep this fairly brief as I really have no time at the moment. Skipping posting in every thread, this seems like it should be close and I have an opinion though.

I find it fairly hard to separate these two. Both are big draws, both have huge legacies, both influential, both dominant kayfabe. Riki has the power to handle someone like Andre and the size too. I've talked a lot about Andre's win/loss in the past - yes its great, no it's not as good as everyone thinks and he does put people over in their territories frequently.

The way I split this is, as I always do, with conceptualizing this tournament in a real modern day environment, where all these wrestlers are in their prime and competing for the most prestigious title of the year.

That brings me to my point - yes, Rikidozan was a trend setter and was a number one draw in Asia during his time. I do not believe, had Inoki/Misawa/Kobashi/Muta/Baba been around and at their prime at the same time, that he would have the same popularity. He was the first, a ground breaker, but his value diminishes when you consider the fully evolved spectrum of wrestlers we see here.

Andre? He is unique. Totally and utterly unique. The closest thing we've got is Big Show, but he lacks the aura that Andre has.

So my vote goes to Andre. I believe he'd be more valuable in this tournament than Rikidozan and I'm voting accordingly. I can't split them kayfabe, which would be my first port of call. Btw, @ the stats vs Inoki, I've already referenced Andre losing more in others territories than is acknowledged, and his record vs Inoki in Japan is 4 wins 4 losses.

So as not to be hypocritical, I'd apply this argument to Thesz/Sammartino and the likes as well, but their longevity and dominance in a more competitive era gives them more consideration than Rikidozan for me.