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View Full Version : Intl. Region, Leeds Subregion, First Round: (4) Chris Benoit vs. (29) Mark Henry


klunderbunker
03-28-2014, 12:07 AM
This is a first round match in the International Region, Leeds Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under standard wrestling rules. It will be held at the Leeds Arena in Leeds, England.

http://www.rocksteadyuk.co.uk/test/wordpress/music/2013/01/Leeds-arena-1.jpg

http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Chris-Benoit-5-1.jpg

#4. Chris Benoit

Vs.

http://www.enfinity1productions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/MarkHenry-WorldHeavyweightChampion_display_image.jpg

#29. Mark Henry



Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

nightmare
03-28-2014, 12:41 AM
Do you know what happens when the Rabid Wolverine meets the Worlds Strongest Man? Mark Henry taps out in less than 3 minutes.


Chris Benoit is not scared of Mark Henry. He is tough enough to take whatever Mark can dish out & all he needs is a second to slap on the crossface. Done deal.


Chris Benoit moves on to round two.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-28-2014, 06:07 AM
Do not let the seedings above fool you into recklessly voting Chris Benoit, because this is a terrible match-up for Chris Benoit for multiple reasons which I'm going to go into shortly.

Before I begin, I'd just like to point out that I consider the prime of Benoit to be 2004 during his World Title Reign, and 2011 for Henry during his own reign, so those are the times that I am going to be analysing. I will factor in Henry's escalating hall of pain at the time also, as well as Benoit's Royal Rumble victory and gain of momentum

Let's first discuss the title defences that these men had to endure throughout their reign. After Benoit won his title in an outstanding triple threat match at Wrestlemania against Shawn Michaels and Triple H, he first defended it in a rematch at Backlash, which was fair enough as both challengers were entitled to rematch clauses. But then it went down-hill VERY quickly. I'm talking about as early as Badd Blood 2003. Now, don't get me wrong, Kane is one of my favourite wrestlers, but this was during his very awkward period of the career where he was a glorified mid-carder and didn't mean nearly as much as he had done before (he feuded with Snitsky at the end of the year. See what I'm getting at here?), and Benoit was tasked with defending his title against him, in once again, a good match and one of Kane's best. But then you had the Cell match afterwards between HHH and HBK, and something was clearly evident: Benoit was overshadowed by Triple H, and with that Evolution and HBK on the Raw roster. We then move onto Vengeance, where the main catalyst for the Triple H and Benoit feud was not the title, but Eugene, a comedy character. This lead to the ENTHRALLING clash of HHH vs Eugene at Summerslam, but Benoit defended the title, but once again being made to look weak by HHH. At Summerslam, Benoit lost the title in an underrated classic against Randy Orton, and he was pretty much struck out of the main event for the rest of his WWE career, and stayed in upper-midcard/midcard territory until his death.

Mark Henry begun his reign by defeating the top Smackdown babyface Randy Orton and firmly established himself as a dominant champion, losing only ONCE by pinfall due to interference from Cena (I don't count the early Bryan cash-in because it was never an official match) while he was champion, while Benoit lost many tag team contests. He defended his title against Orton at Hell in a Cell before colliding with a surprisingly excellent big man feud with the Big Show, with both men showing extreme dominance throughout the feud (a rarity), before Henry finally lost his championship at TLC, before DESTROYING Big Show for Bryan to cash in MITB, but that's a story for another time.

The difference between the two title reigns is conspicuous. Henry was established as the top guy on Smackdown during his reign, as he usurped the top babyface and became a dominant heel of his brand. Benoit wasn't even the second biggest star on Raw at the time, as Triple H and Shawn clearly overshadowed him even when he was champion. Henry was clearly made out to be the biggest star of his show, and with guys like Orton, Big Show and Sheamus on Smackdown to deal with, while Benoit was just treated as upper mid-card. Before anyone throws any stupid stuff about Smackdown being a B-Show, Randy Orton was the second biggest babyface at the time of Henry's reign (Punk had only just started to rise during this time period) in the entire WWE, and Henry beat him clean twice. Benoit and his tag-team partner Edge (midcarder at the time) were losing to La Resistance of all people consistently, and yeah, Edge was getting pinned, but a pinfall loss is still a pinfall loss. Kane was no longer a big deal at the time of his match, and Triple H was made to look dominant during his match against Benoit and lost because of Eugene's interference. Benoit had to enlist the help of a retarded guy to beat Triple H in a one on one match. Mark Henry beat his closest competition, the biggest babyface outside of John Cena clean twice.

OK, now that's out of the way, let's look at the other reasons why Benoit should lose this match, and another reason is that Benoit's style is simply not very good against a man like Mark Henry. He could scarcely suplex Kane, and Henry is 100lbs heavier than he is, and a harder frame to throw around, leaving strikes as his only means of primary offence, which simply isn't enough to stop 2011 Henry unless you're a very heavy hitter, which Benoit is not. Don't get me wrong, his chops hurt, but not to the extent that they would knock Henry off his feet like a boot from the Big Show would, unless Benoit jumped from the top rope which would leave him INCREDIBLY vulnerable to being caught and slammed down to the mat.

What's more, Mark Henry is billed as THE world's strongest man. People who aren't Mark Henry have powered out of his submission holds before (hell, Kane did it in 2004 I believe), even the Crossface. Mark has enough in the tank to power out of Benoit's grip quite a few times, giving him MUCH more time to dish out punishment to Benoit. Benoit has an excellent fighting style, but it just simply isn't very effective against a man like Mark Henry.

The final main reason that Benoit should lose here is that Benoit matches the criteria for a person that Henry would dispatch in his Hall of Pain. He's a credible threat being an upper-midcarder during his time as champion, but not enough to overcome the monster heel that is Mark Henry. If Benoit was still alive in 2011 and still the upper-midcarder champion that he was back in 2004 (let's say he's overshadowed by Orton), then Henry would have dispatched him just like he dispatched the TOP babyface Randy Orton. Benoit was playing second fiddle to HBK through a large portion of his title reign as the top Raw babyface. Nobody could match Mark Henry as a heel or a monster until the Big Show finally stood up to him and won the title, but it took him THREE chances to win the title from Henry, before Henry annihilated him and Bryan cashed in. It took Orton only one chance against Benoit, and he successfully defended his title against him the next night on Raw.

I know the seeding suggests that Benoit should win, but Mark Henry was an absolute FORCE during his peak as champion, unlike Benoit's peak at champion, where was the third guy on the Raw Roster.

Benoit is simply outmatched here, and is inducted into the Hall of Pain.

Vote Mark Henry.

FunKay the Inevitable
03-28-2014, 07:39 AM
Oh, Mark Henry. The only time I can recall these two meeting is on an episode of SmackDown in 2006 and Mark Henry completely destroyed Benoit, sending him on a sabbatical for the summer. This is Mark Henry in 2006 folks, who let's face it, wasn't exactly at the peak of his powers and yes, the same can obviously be said for Benoit, but in 2006, Chris Benoit was a main event talent.

Mark Henry was flirting with that scene himself, but wouldn't fully ascend to that level until 2011 when he hit his stride and peak and the Hall of Pain opened. When Henry was in his prime, he was swatting away all comers. He took out big men, wrecked smaller, gifted athletes like Randy Orton, Christian, y'know the Chris Benoit size/weight and stood toe to toe with men larger than him, and more often than not, escaped with the "W".

Benoit's good, there's no doubt, but he's at a disadvantage to Mark Henry here and I'm thinking that Chris Benoit is about to join the Hall...of Pain.

George Steele's Barber
03-28-2014, 09:24 AM
Shame on the selection committee for making a joke of Benoit's ranking so he can be the victim of such an upset. But let's face it, even at his best he wasn't that good. His biggest moment came when another guy was in a match to help him wear down his opponent.

And this is a bad draw for him. While I'm sure Benoit submitted large men with the crossface I'm just not buying it here. Plus no one should be top rope head butting Henry's massive gord.

WSS and caput, a number four seed is already gone.

Alex
03-28-2014, 09:37 AM
I highly doubt Benoit can get the crossface or sharpshooter on Henry and that would be the only way he could win.

To knock Henry off his feet you either have to be as big/bigger than him and/or be ridiculously strong. Benoit is neither of those things. Sure he's strong but I don't think he could lift up Henry or even knock him off his feet. And there lies the problem. For Benoit to lock in the crossface or sharpshooter he'd have to knock Henry over and I just don't see that happening.

Con T.
03-28-2014, 10:11 AM
You know what Chris Benoit is at his best doing?

Having really great matches, that he winds up often losing, and making the other guy look like gold.

You know what Mark Henry is at his best doing?

Kicking ass, and looking like an absolute monster.

If you don't pick Mark Henry, you really don't understand either character, or booking in general. It's that simple.

Mark Henry. That's what I do!

ProWrestlingFan
03-28-2014, 10:44 AM
Chris Benoit defeated 2 of the WWE's top stars, Triple H and Shawn Michaels clean at 2 consecutive PPVs, one of them being the biggest show of the year, Wrestlemania to win the World Heavyweight Title.

The only big push Mark Henry ever got was in 2006 and even then he was constantly booked to lose to Kurt Angle,Undertaker,Batista etc.

And people saying "Benoit can't defeat a guy like Mark Henry with Crossface"......Really?

Benoit defeated guys like Nathan Jones, Matt Morgan, A-Train, Viscera etc with the crossface, even Big Show (WWE MSG Show Sep 20th 2003 -Chris Benoit defeated The Big Show by Submission)... so that point is moot.

Con T.
03-28-2014, 10:51 AM
Chris Benoit defeated 2 of the WWE's top stars, Triple H and Shawn Michaels clean at 2 consecutive PPVs, one of them being the biggest show of the year, Wrestlemania to win the World Heavyweight Title.

The only big push Mark Henry ever got was in 2006 and even then he was constantly booked to lose to Kurt Angle,Undertaker,Batista etc.

And people saying "Benoit can't defeat a guy like" Henry with Cross face..Really?

Benoit defeated guys like Nathan Jones,A-Train,Viscera etc with the Crossface. Even Big Show (WWE MSG Show Sep 20th 2003 -Chris Benoit defeated The Big Show by Submission)


If you don't pick Mark Henry, you really don't understand either character, or booking in general. It's that simple.

Mark Henry. That's what I do!

Ladies and gentlemen, point, and, made.

Did you miss 2011, where Mark Henry was pushed as a destroyer of worlds? Randy Orton lost clean, in the middle of the ring, twice to Mark Henry. So did Big Show, so did Daniel Bryan (who by the way, is the closest thing we have to Chris Benoit walking this Earth).

And, might I point out... All of the names you mentioned in 2006? They're all ten times better than Chris Benoit. And, during that same 2006, it was Mark Henry that squashed Chris Benoit, and put him out of action.

Chris Benoit didn't win in 2006; he isn't winning now.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-28-2014, 10:53 AM
Chris Benoit defeated 2 of the WWE's top stars, Triple H and Shawn Michaels clean at 2 consecutive PPVs, one of them being the biggest show of the year, Wrestlemania to win the World Heavyweight Title.

A) Whilst they were primarily focusing on one another because they were in a massive feud, giving Benoit an advantage.

B) And with both guys being prioritized over Benoit, as evidenced by Badd Blood 2004. Benoit wasn't even the top babyface of the brand.


The only big push Mark Henry ever got was in 2006 and even then he was constantly booked to lose to Kurt Angle,Undertaker,Batista etc.


Are you really that fucking cretinous? Does 2011 Mark Henry, his PEAK, exist to you at all?


And people saying "Benoit can't defeat a guy like" Henry with Cross face..Really?


Kane powered out of the hold quite easily in 2004, during Benoit's peak. If Kane could do it in one of his worst years ever, then surely the World Strongest Man could do it in his peak too.


Benoit defeated guys like Nathan Jones,A-Train,Viscera etc with the Crossface. Even Big Show (WWE MSG Show Sep 20th 2003 -Chris Benoit defeated The Big Show by Submission)

Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that Kane broke the hold during one of his worst years, and he's not the world's strongest man. Henry however is billed as the world's strongest man, which suggest that he too could break the hold. And that's not even factoring if Benoit can get a chance to lock in the hold.

ProWrestlingFan
03-28-2014, 11:12 AM
Did you miss 2011, where Mark Henry was pushed as a destroyer of worlds? Randy Orton lost clean, in the middle of the ring, twice to Mark Henry.



Benoit was booked to win the Royal Rumble and main-event Wrestlemania with two of WWE's top guys, Triple H and Shawn Michaels to win the World Heavyweight title which at that point was THE title.

Mark Henry won the B-Show title at a 'B PPV' beating Orton, who at that point was losing to guys like Christian. Big fucking difference.

ProWrestlingFan
03-28-2014, 11:21 AM
A) Whilst they were primarily focusing on one another because they were in a massive feud, giving Benoit an advantage.

Benoit was the center of attention for the whole fued.

B) And with both guys being prioritized over Benoit, as evidenced by Badd Blood 2004. Benoit wasn't even the top babyface of the brand.

And Mark Henry was?

Henry however is billed as the world's strongest man, which suggest that he too could break the hold. And that's not even factoring if Benoit can get a chance to lock in the hold.


Mark Henry taps out to Chris Benoit.


xmadj3_chris-benoit-vs-mark-henry-raw-2-2-2004_sport

Con T.
03-28-2014, 11:22 AM
Benoit was booked to win the Royal Rumble and main-event Wrestlemania with two of WWE's top guys, Triple H and Shawn Michaels to win the World Heavyweight title which at that point was THE title.

And coincidentally enough, was never booked as "the guy" of Raw. He wasn't even the top face... That would belong to Shawn Michaels. Hell, Chris didn't even main event one of his PPV's... Coincidentally the one where he wasn't fighting Triple H or Shawn Michaels. To make matters worse, he was in an opening match, before wrestling Kane.

I guess my point is, in spite of how you want to twist it, Chris Benoit was never the guy. Chris Benoit was upstaged by Eugene, even during his title reign.

Eugene.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-28-2014, 11:28 AM
Benoit was booked to win the Royal Rumble and main-event Wrestlemania with two of WWE's top guys, Triple H and Shawn Michaels to win the World Heavyweight title which at that point was THE title.


Sure, he won the Royal Rumble from #1, which is an impressive feat, but that doesn't change the fact that the HBK/HHH feud was the primary focus of the match. Part of what makes the excellent psychology of this match work is that Benoit was the sleeper candidate while the two bitter rivals clashed. Sure, they attacked Benoit, but HHH and HBK were hellbent on destroying one another in that match, which led to Benoit capitalizing and winning. He doesn't have that advantage in this match-up.


Mark Henry won the B-Show title at a 'B PPV' beating Orton, who at that point was losing to guys like Christian. Big fucking difference.

u-54OpEwE0w

And it's also addressed extremely poorly, with guys like Randy Orton, Sheamus and The Big Show, all 3 of them established baby-faces being thorns in Henry's side and he still the first two, and it took Big Show three times to finally take down Henry, only to be destroyed afterwards.

Benoit in the meanwhile beat a glorified mid-carder and HHH with the help of a retarded character in solo matches. So he really doesn't have an advantage here at all.

@Your response to my post: No, he was focused on being the sleeper candidate, which is what helped make the match fucking awesome. Shawn and HHH had a match at the Rumble and were still locked in a feud.

Mark Henry was the biggest heel on Smackdown by far.

7 years before his prime. From a kayfabe standpoint, he'd be FAR more likely to break the hold in 2011 against 2004 Benoit (which is funny, considering you posted prime Benoit and WAY pre-prime Henry)

The Brain
03-28-2014, 12:13 PM
I'll take Benoit here. He may never have been the number one guy in any company he worked for but he did have success in any promotion he worked for throughout the world. Mark Henry has only worked for WWE, which I don't have a problem with, but it took him 15 years to finally live up to his potential and be considered more than just a joke. 2011 finally did help erase the memories of Sami, Mae Young, and losing his virginity to his sister but Mark Henry didn't have the long term success Benoit did. Henry was awesome for about six months in 2011 but a great six month run during an 18 year career with the same company is not getting him past Benoit.

Alex
03-28-2014, 12:28 PM
I'll take Benoit here. He may never have been the number one guy in any company he worked for but he did have success in any promotion he worked for throughout the world. Mark Henry has only worked for WWE, which I don't have a problem with, but it took him 15 years to finally live up to his potential and be considered more than just a joke. 2011 finally did help erase the memories of Sami, Mae Young, and losing his virginity to his sister but Mark Henry didn't have the long term success Benoit did. Henry was awesome for about six months in 2011 but a great six month run during an 18 year career with the same company is not getting him past Benoit.

That's all well and good but Benoit was never a big deal in any of the companies he worked for.

Sure he was good and had success but he was never 'The Guy'. Yes he had world title reigns and had some good feuds with top guys. But after that he'd just go down the card again.

Henry's dominance in 2011 even if it was only for 6 months really trumps anything Benoit did overall.

If we were to compare them to One Hit Wonders Benoit would be The Knack-My Sharona. You know the song but can't really remember the artist. Henry would be A-ha-Take On Me. You know the song and you know the artist and wonder why they didn't do more.

The Brain
03-28-2014, 12:38 PM
That's all well and good but Benoit was never a big deal in any of the companies he worked for.

Sure he was good and had success but he was never 'The Guy'. Yes he had world title reigns and had some good feuds with top guys. But after that he'd just go down the card again.

Henry's dominance in 2011 even if it was only for 6 months really trumps anything Benoit did overall.

If we were to compare them to One Hit Wonders Benoit would be The Knack-My Sharona. You know the song but can't really remember the artist. Henry would be A-ha-Take On Me. You know the song and you know the artist and wonder why they didn't do more.

Mark Henry was never 'The Guy' either. I loved what he was doing in the second half of 2011 but he wasn't as dominant as people are making him out to be. He beat Randy Orton for the world title which was impressive. After that he struggled against The Big Show before dropping the title to him three months after winning the title. Henry hasn't been anywhere near as successful since. If he was that guy for at least a few of his 18 years with the company I'd probably give Henry the vote. For most of his career Henry was either irrelevant or a joke. I'd say Benoit's WrestleMania main event title win over both Triple H and Shawn Michaels really trumps anything Henry did overall.

And My Sharona > Take On Me.

deem
03-28-2014, 12:41 PM
I'm torn on this so I'll just make some early points and wait for arguments to sway my vote.

A) This is prime vs prime. The only Mark Henry you need to consider is late 2011, a run which is up there in dominance to anything we've seen in 10 years in WWE. Can you name anyone that dismantled Orton that much so frequently? Also, during that time he was rampant against an emerging MITB-holding Daniel bryan, pretty comparable to Benoit (albeit a lesser version at that stage).

B) Kayfabe, every "The Crossface is ineffective on someone Henry's size" argument is quite silly. His record vs The Big Show is 3-3 lifetime (Big Show has always been near prime, Benoit definitely stepped it up in 2004 and never faced Big Show around that time. 2003, he traded wins on house shows with him).

C) I do think Benoit fits the bill of the type that Henry was going over in 2011, even at his prime. Prime-Benoit WAS the afterthought to HHH during his reign before losing it to an emerging Randy Orton. Mark Henry was the boy on Smackdown, surpassing the established top level Randy Orton in the process.

I think I'm leaning towards Henry but didn't expect that coming into this

Randy Orton's Head Blood
03-28-2014, 12:48 PM
Reading through this, you've all made me change my mind.
I said Benoit at the start before I opened this page, but after reading through it, I can see that Mark Henry actually has a HUGE chance to beat Benoit here.

He, as has been said, was never "the" guy, although people do make him out to be quite a lot. Then again, considering his actions, the fact that people make him out to be so amazing is quite a miracle.

Either way, Mark Henry isn't necessarily the dominant beast you all think him to be. Remember, Daniel Bryan defeated him AND Big Show (Granted, in a Steel Cage match), but if he can overcome these two men, then why couldn't Benoit overcome the one?

I'm undecided right now, will see what others come up with.

Con T.
03-28-2014, 01:03 PM
Also, during that time he was rampant against an emerging MITB-holding Daniel bryan, pretty comparable to Benoit (albeit a lesser version at that stage).

See, here's the thing; I'm not all that sure he was all that much lesser, at the time.

Think about Chris Benoit, before his 2004 run. He was more in the mix towards the Smackdown tag titles, than he was fighting against the main event. He faced off with Cena quite a bit, but that was "Basic Thuganomics" Cena, as opposed to the Cena we all know now. When he went up against Angle and Lesnar (the stars of Smackdown, by far and away) Benoit lost. He looked great in his losses, but still came up empty handed.

Daniel Bryan, much the same way, didn't really have his push juiced up until he actually cashed in his MITB. He got his fair share of wins, mainly against the mid card (Cody Rhodes, Wade Barrett). But when he got the matchup against Mark Henry, it usually wound up with him receiving a tough loss, looking good in the face of defeat.

The two are actually quite comparable; when both did get the shove, they found better results. Though to my knowledge, Benoit never really beat Angle or Lesnar, during that 2003 run.

So, I don't necessarily think the two are that different, and I think including that sort of evidence draws you to a better conclusion of what a Henry-Benoit match may have looked like.

ProWrestlingFan
03-28-2014, 01:05 PM
And coincidentally enough, was never booked as "the guy" of Raw. He wasn't even the top face... That would belong to Shawn Michaels. Hell, Chris didn't even main event one of his PPV's... Coincidentally the one where he wasn't fighting Triple H or Shawn Michaels. To make matters worse, he was in an opening match, before wrestling Kane.

I guess my point is, in spite of how you want to twist it, Chris Benoit was never the guy. Chris Benoit was upstaged by Eugene, even during his title reign.

Eugene.

Thats false.

Backlash 2004 :
Main-event - Chris Benoit vs Shawn Michaels vs Triple H for the World Heavyweight Championship - Benoit won

Bad Blood 2004 - Benoit wrestled in 2 matches. One was for the tag-team championship while the other match was for the World Heavyweight Championship vs. Kane which took place just before HBK vs HHH obviously because their match was Hell in a Cell. Benoit retained the title.

Vengeance 2004 :
Main-event - Chris Benoit vs Triple H for the World Heavyweight Championship - Benoit won

Summerslam 2004 - Main event was Randy Orton vs Chris Benoit for the World Heavyweight title.

Benoit main-evented all the PPVs during his title reign except Bad Blood because of Hell in a Cell.

Benoit's title reign was longer and meant more than Mark Henry's title reign.
Also, how many ppvs did Mark Henry main-event during his title reign? ZERO. When Mark Henry won the title it was passed around to mid-carders like Jack Swagger, Christian etc.

Little Jerry Lawler
03-28-2014, 01:07 PM
Reading through this, you've all made me change my mind.
I said Benoit at the start before I opened this page, but after reading through it, I can see that Mark Henry actually has a HUGE chance to beat Benoit here.

He, as has been said, was never "the" guy, although people do make him out to be quite a lot. Then again, considering his actions, the fact that people make him out to be so amazing is quite a miracle.

Either way, Mark Henry isn't necessarily the dominant beast you all think him to be. Remember, Daniel Bryan defeated him AND Big Show (Granted, in a Steel Cage match), but if he can overcome these two men, then why couldn't Benoit overcome the one?

I'm undecided right now, will see what others come up with.

Do you remember Benoit's first match on Raw after the Rumble? It was against Mark Henry who tapped to him in less than 3 minutes. He's made Big Show tap and Kane as well. Benoit doesn't need to make Henry submit to win. He's beaten Kane and Big Show other ways as well. Henry couldn't even get a clean win on Big Show after he won the title so all we really have is Henry beating Orton a couple of times. I still will take Benoit's run over Henry's.

Con T.
03-28-2014, 01:13 PM
Benoit main-evented all the PPVs during his title reign except Bad Blood because of the HBK vs HHH (Hell in a Cell).

You know why I highlighted this, right?

No? Let me help.


Main-event - Chris Benoit vs Shawn Michaels vs Triple H for the World Heavyweight Championship - Benoit won

Bad Blood 2004 - Benoit wrestled in 2 matches. One was for the tag-team championship while the other match was for the World Heavyweight Championship vs. Kane which took place just before HBK vs HHH obviously, because it was a Hell in a Cell. Benoit retained the title.

Vengeance 2004 - Chris Benoit vs Triple H

Summerslam 2004 - Main event was Randy ORton vs Chris Benoit for the World Heavyweight title.

You noticing a more common thread here?

Every PPV but Summerslam was highlighted by Triple H.

And who highlighted the Summerslam where Benoit dutifully handed over his title?

Randy Orton, protégé of Triple H.

Triple H was the guy. He was the main eventer. He was the star. Chris Benoit received his trophy for his hard work; whether or not it should have happened, he played second fiddle to Triple H.

Oh, and Benoit main evented those PPVS, because it was the era of brand split PPVS. You know, the ones that had increasingly awful buyrates?

Bernkastel
03-28-2014, 01:19 PM
Mark Henry was never 'The Guy' either. I loved what he was doing in the second half of 2011 but he wasn't as dominant as people are making him out to be. He beat Randy Orton for the world title which was impressive. After that he struggled against The Big Show before dropping the title to him three months after winning the title. Henry hasn't been anywhere near as successful since. If he was that guy for at least a few of his 18 years with the company I'd probably give Henry the vote. For most of his career Henry was either irrelevant or a joke. I'd say Benoit's WrestleMania main event title win over both Triple H and Shawn Michaels really trumps anything Henry did overall.

And My Sharona > Take On Me.

On the contrary Benoit was booked as mostly a midcarder to an upper midcarder for most of his career prior to maybe 2002. And even up til 2007 prior to his championship run he was basically on the same level as Henry card wise. Henry has been a consistent upper midcarder following 2006. In 2011 he broke that glass ceiling. IMO his retirement promo alone trumps anything Benoit did, entertainment wise. Benoit's Mania moment was special because you had Chris and Eddie celebrating the moment when they both broke that glass ceiling together.

TBH I was leaning towards Benoit because his overall legacy was greater. However it's arguable that Henry was a bigger deal during his prime. He was hyped as the top heel in the company, the difference between most top heels being he was world champion. Benoit was a fighting champion, but henry was booked to be seemingly untouchable. And really for the first time in his career too.

If comes down to drawing power or legacy when virtually every other criteria is the same then I'm going to choose drawing power. I'm voting Henry for the upset.

Randy Orton's Head Blood
03-28-2014, 01:27 PM
Benoit's title reign was longer and meant more than Mark Henry's title reign.
Also, how many ppvs did Mark Henry main-event during his title reign? ZERO. When Mark Henry won the title it was passed around to mid-carders like Jack Swagger, Christian etc.

I need to say, with this, that's nothing to do with Mark Henry.

This is because it's the World Heavyweight Championship.

Also, Little Jerry Lawler, I never said Mark Henry would definitely win, I was saying people were giving me good reason to believe he could. However, you've highlighted the Benoit prospect in more light than I could.

George Steele's Barber
03-28-2014, 01:33 PM
I see the argument for Benoit's championship run in WWE but this isn't a battle royal or triple threat (despite Henry being the size of two men). Plus this is international and with the exception of Canada, Henry has a much bigger presence internationally than Benoit. The man was an Olympian.

True love always,
GSB (proud of himself for making two arguments without making a murdering joke #growth)

nightmare
03-28-2014, 01:39 PM
Royal Rumble 2004- Mark Henry is eliminated by Chris Benoit.

Raw 2004- Chris Benoit debuts on the show & makes Henry tap out in less than 3 minutes.


The last & final meeting was in 2006 & ended with a fight on the outside.



Mark Henry had a nice little run for a few months but went right back to floating around the mid card. Sure he is mean & scary, but Benoit does not care. His career has shown he does not care what size you are- he is going to bring the fight right to you. Sure Henry is strong & can beat a guy down, but is that enough to keep Benoit down? It only takes a second to slap on the crossface & Henry taps out. It has happened before & will happen again.



Benoit had a better career than Henry. He has spent a little time in the spotlight, but Henry was never a big deal. Chris Benoit has been a big deal all over the globe. He has proven to be able to beat Mark Henry & this match ends the same way. Crossface.

George Steele's Barber
03-28-2014, 01:53 PM
Royal Rumble 2004- Mark Henry is eliminated by Chris Benoit.

Raw 2004- Chris Benoit debuts on the show & makes Henry tap out in less than 3 minutes.


The last & final meeting was in 2006 & ended with a fight on the outside.



Mark Henry had a nice little run for a few months but went right back to floating around the mid card. Sure he is mean & scary, but Benoit does not care. His career has shown he does not care what size you are- he is going to bring the fight right to you. Sure Henry is strong & can beat a guy down, but is that enough to keep Benoit down? It only takes a second to slap on the crossface & Henry taps out. It has happened before & will happen again.



Benoit had a better career than Henry. He has spent a little time in the spotlight, but Henry was never a big deal. Chris Benoit has been a big deal all over the globe. He has proven to be able to beat Mark Henry & this match ends the same way. Crossface.


This is no 3 minute match though. Plus remember, Benoit will hit the flying head butt at some point in order to win this match and then one of two things will occur:

1) the collision with a head the size and hardness of Henry's will cause Benoit's already brittle brain to explode or

2) the collision will cause Benoit to go in to a psychotic rampage leading to a DQ

There is no way for Benoit to win.

The Brain
03-28-2014, 02:35 PM
On the contrary Benoit was booked as mostly a midcarder to an upper midcarder for most of his career prior to maybe 2002.

And other than the second half of 2011 that is better than Mark Henry ever got.

And even up til 2007 prior to his championship run he was basically on the same level as Henry card wise.

Really? Benoit may not have been the main guy but he was always involved in relevant storylines while Henry would just disappear for months or even years at a time either because of injury or because people just didn't care much about him. Benoit had great feuds and matches with guys like Jericho, Angle, Rock, Triple H, and Austin before he ever became champion. And that's not counting anything outside WWE. Besides a mania match with Taker, which most people agree he had no business in, what did Henry do before the title reign in 2011?

Henry has been a consistent upper midcarder following 2006. In 2011 he broke that glass ceiling. IMO his retirement promo alone trumps anything Benoit did, entertainment wise. Benoit's Mania moment was special because you had Chris and Eddie celebrating the moment when they both broke that glass ceiling together.

If there is one word you should not use when describing Mark Henry it's consistent. As I mentioned, he disappears regularly. Would we even be having this conversation in 2010? It would be laughable. Of course Henry has improved since then but a six month hot streak is not enough to trump Benoit's entire career.

TBH I was leaning towards Benoit because his overall legacy was greater. However it's arguable that Henry was a bigger deal during his prime. He was hyped as the top heel in the company, the difference between most top heels being he was world champion. Benoit was a fighting champion, but henry was booked to be seemingly untouchable. And really for the first time in his career too.

For the first time in his career. What took so long? What exactly is Mark Henry's prime? Six months of an 18 year career? Even during his title reign Henry really only shined against Orton. Benoit was successful against Triple H, Michaels, and Kane. Neither were the greatest reigns ever but Henry's certainly wasn't way ahead of Benoit.

If comes down to drawing power or legacy when virtually every other criteria is the same then I'm going to choose drawing power. I'm voting Henry for the upset.

How is Henry a better draw than Benoit?

nightmare
03-28-2014, 02:59 PM
This is no 3 minute match though.

Why not? Is there some rule that states the matches must be longer? Because I thought a match goes on until one guy wins.


Bell rings, Henry gets in some strong guy offense, Benoit gets mad, grabs the arm- tap tap tap.





Plus remember, Benoit will hit the flying head butt at some point in order to win


Why? He beat him before without the move.



There is no way for Benoit to win.


Fact: Benoit has already found a way. It ended with Henry tapping out.





Benoit has had more success than Henry. More titles, more big wins. Mark Henry being a scary black guy for a few months does not outshine a career of accomplishments. So if you want to vote on who had the bigger career, then Benoit has the advantage. If you want to vote based on who would win in a match, Benoit has already proved he can beat Henry.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-28-2014, 03:20 PM
I'm going to be making another long post responding to stuff soon, but I gotta single this point out because it's bugging me.


Either way, Mark Henry isn't necessarily the dominant beast you all think him to be. Remember, Daniel Bryan defeated him AND Big Show (Granted, in a Steel Cage match), but if he can overcome these two men, then why couldn't Benoit overcome the one?


That's the psychology of the WM20 triple threat match at work. In that match, Big Show and Mark Henry were in a heated rivalry, and Bryan was the sleeper candidate to retain. The monsters destroyed one another for the most part, which allowed Bryan to escape with the title. From a kayfabe standpoint, had it been one on one, Bryan would have been annihilated by them (in fact, he was by Henry)

Benoit can't overcome Henry because Henry has no such distractions in this match. He only has Benoit to deal with.

Bythedockofthebay
03-28-2014, 03:36 PM
I hate to put it this way but Benoit legacy(minus the murder) is such that Henry could never touch Benoit in this match, it's not even that close.

Winner-Benoit makes henry tap to the crossface

George Steele's Barber
03-28-2014, 03:40 PM
Why not? Is there some rule that states the matches must be longer? Because I thought a match goes on until one guy wins.

Bell rings, Henry gets in some strong guy offense, Benoit gets mad, grabs the arm- tap tap tap.

Why? He beat him before without the move.

Fact: Benoit has already found a way. It ended with Henry tapping out.


What happened to this tournament? When did it become such a joke to you people? Suuurrre, open the tournament with a three minute match. Why not have Doing the Clown come down in five minutes and squirt water from a fake flower lapel causing Henry to lose. This one match you keep going to is a real stretch. A tournament as important as this one deserves better. I'm not saying you are an awful person, certainly not as awful as someone who murdered their wife and kid (I can only assume you haven't done this, if I am wrong I apologize for stereotyping you as someone who hasn't murdered before. That would be insensitive of me).




Benoit has had more success than Henry.


Just a guess but I think Mark Henry's bank account would beg to differ.

More titles, more big wins. Mark Henry being a scary black guy for a few months does not outshine a career of accomplishments.

Not true, Nick Paglino reported that Mark Henry has been black for most if not all of his life.

So if you want to vote on who had the bigger career, then Benoit has the advantage. If you want to vote based on who would win in a match, Benoit has already proved he can beat Henry.

The question isn't "Can?", the question is "Will?". Unlike Benoit, who can win this match, Mark Henry can AND will win this match.

However, I will trade my Mark Henry vote in this round if I can get four members of the forum to guarantee me that they will vote for Andre the Giant in every round of the tournament.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-28-2014, 03:50 PM
I hate to put it this way but Benoit legacy(minus the murder) is such that Henry could never touch Benoit in this match, it's not even that close.

Winner-Benoit makes henry tap to the crossface

I was waiting for someone to pull this card out (hell, people have, but not as bluntly)

And it really doesn't matter at all. Let me use an analogy of two science experiments marked on a graph. One experiment rises quite quickly, and then flatlines at level 4, occasionally dipping to Level 3, never rising to the final Level 5. The second experiment reaches Level 2 and stays there for quite some time, eventually gets to Level 3, takes a couple of dips into Level 4, then near the end of the experiment, rockets into Level 5. Which experiment is the more important, the consistent or the highest result?

The consistent is a good experiment, but at the end of the day, the peak performance of the higher result surpasses the consistent.

Benoit accomplished quite a lot, but at the end of the day, the peak performance of Mark Henry was 2011, when he was inducting credible threats into the Hall of Pain. To qualify, you had to be either a fellow monster that made Henry look good in destroying you (Khali, Kane, Big Show), or you had to be an upper-midcarder (Kane, Randy Orton, Sheamus)

Benoit is not the guy to slay the beast. He's the guy that'll make the beast look far more threatening.

By the way, Brain is the only guy that has a coherent argument as to why Benoit will go over. I disagree, but I see his stand-point. I love nightmare, but it's rather conspicuous to see that he's trolling somewhat here, especially considering he's being naive to the fact that Henry lost 7 full years before his prime and his posts in other matches. And then there's ProWrestlingFan, who's saying the same stuff, except he isn't trolling.

Pay Per Ghost
03-28-2014, 03:57 PM
To be honest, a prime Benoit circa Mania 2004 will be tough competition for 2011 Henry, and Benoit would take it. He was pretty good post Mania 20 too and had a fairly good 5 month run.

Again here is a guy who the company let win the big ME so I think I can regard him as a little more powerful in his prime. Benoit here, a good match though.

Nate DaMac
03-28-2014, 03:59 PM
Get the fuck out out here, man. Mark Henry has been a joke for about 90% of his career now. One "Monster of the Month" reign doesn't trump Benoit's two decades of classic matches, angles, and moments. We're trying to figure out who the best of all time is, and Benoit definitely ranks higher than Henry.

Bernkastel
03-28-2014, 04:02 PM
And other than the second half of 2011 that is better than Mark Henry ever got.

That would be plausible if Benoit were booked to win the world title again. But he never reached those heights again. Instead he was shuffled about the card and wound up on the same level as Henry.

Really? Benoit may not have been the main guy but he was always involved in relevant storylines while Henry would just disappear for months or even years at a time either because of injury or because people just didn't care much about him.

Benoit was more consistent than Henry from that perspective, fine. But if people didn't flat out not care about him then WWE would have fired him during one of these injury bouts. But they always had a reason to bring him back and Henry was always relevant once he came back.

Benoit had great feuds and matches with guys like Jericho, Angle, Rock, Triple H, and Austin before he ever became champion. And that's not counting anything outside WWE.

But those feuds really didn't help at elevating Benoit any faster did they? If they did Benoit would have been world champion long before 2004. And a multiple one at that. But he wasn't.

And the "great matches and feuds" is subjective from that perspective. I myself enjoyed Henry's programs with Kane/Batista/Angle prior to 2010. I even enjoyed his ECW title match against Matt Hardy.

Besides a mania match with Taker, which most people agree he had no business in, what did Henry do before the title reign in 2011?

ECW champion and a big face run in 2010. And relevance as a jobber to the stars before that. It not like he automatically became "not shit" in 2011. There was a gradual process. Starting in 2006. Just like there was for Benoit leading up to his 2004 title win.

If there is one word you should not use when describing Mark Henry it's consistent. As I mentioned, he disappears regularly. Would we even be having this conversation in 2010? It would be laughable. Of course Henry has improved since then but a six month hot streak is not enough to trump Benoit's entire career.

It is when that one last burst of brilliance was better than anything Benoit accomplished. Quality > quantity.

For the first time in his career. What took so long? What exactly is Mark Henry's prime? Six months of an 18 year career? Even during his title reign Henry really only shined against Orton. Benoit was successful against Triple H, Michaels, and Kane. Neither were the greatest reigns ever but Henry's certainly wasn't way ahead of Benoit.

Benoit had allot of competition sure, but at no point was he booked as being untouchable like Henry. Big Show beating Henry was treated as a bigger deal than punk kid Orton beating Benoit.

How is Henry a better draw than Benoit?

Did Benoit ever have a promo that was so critically acclaimed that it elevated him in the eyes of fans everywhere? Did Benoit ever get people thinking he was going to beat the face of the company for the WWE title? No he didn't.

I'll take Henry's ability to make people forget about how shitty the first decade of his career was compared to a man like Benoit who fell out of relevant once his "15 minutes of fame" in the spotlight were up.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-28-2014, 04:06 PM
To be honest, a prime Benoit circa Mania 2004 will be tough competition for 2011 Henry, and Benoit would take it. He was pretty good post Mania 20 too and had a fairly good 5 month run.

Henry was still good after his 2011/2012 rampage. He was a credible challenger to the top WWE babyface as late as July 2013, and pretty much squashed Ryback clean at Wrestlemania 29. But that's just for the sakes of countering that point.


Again here is a guy who the company let win the big ME so I think I can regard him as a little more powerful in his prime. Benoit here, a good match though.

And the same company who made the decision to have HHH vs HBK last at Badd Blood 2004, and have Benoit escape with the title against HHH because of a retarded guy interfering at Vengeance. It was evident he was playing third fiddle on Raw. Meanwhile, Henry devastated his competition and quickly became the top guy on Smackdown for quite some time. Benoit was clearly being outshined by HHH and HBK, and arguably, the entirity of Evolution and fucking Eugene.

And don't give me the argument that HHH was pulling strings. That doesn't change the fact that Benoit's title run was less of a deal than Henry's title run.

Pay Per Ghost
03-28-2014, 04:11 PM
Henry was still good after his 2011/2012 rampage. He was a credible challenger to the top WWE babyface as late as July 2013, and pretty much squashed Ryback clean at Wrestlemania 29. But that's just for the sakes of countering that point.

He absolutely did not squash Ryback at Mania. I agree that the WWE have done a great job with him these past years making him look like the monster he has always been, but he did NOT squash Ryback at Mania 29.



And the same company who made the decision to have HHH vs HBK last at Badd Blood 2004, and have Benoit escape with the title against HHH because of a retarded guy interfering at Vengeance. It was evident he was playing third fiddle on Raw. Meanwhile, Henry devastated his competition and quickly became the top guy on Smackdown for quite some time. Benoit was clearly being outshined by HHH and HBK, and arguably, the entirity of Evolution and fucking Eugene.

Don't quote 2004 Raw angles we all know they were stupid. I am saying if WWE has a man go over both Hunter and HBK, at WrestleMania no less, its a big deal. A prime Benoit will make him tap no doubt.

Little Jerry Lawler
03-28-2014, 04:16 PM
I'm going to be making another long post responding to stuff soon, but I gotta single this point out because it's bugging me.



That's the psychology of the WM20 triple threat match at work. In that match, Big Show and Mark Henry were in a heated rivalry, and Bryan was the sleeper candidate to retain. The monsters destroyed one another for the most part, which allowed Bryan to escape with the title. From a kayfabe standpoint, had it been one on one, Bryan would have been annihilated by them (in fact, he was by Henry)

Benoit can't overcome Henry because Henry has no such distractions in this match. He only has Benoit to deal with.

Ha.

Henry didn't have no distractions in 2004 when he was tapping to Benoit. Benoit has beaten numerous big guys who didn't have any distractions. Come up with something better.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-28-2014, 04:25 PM
He absolutely did not squash Ryback at Mania. I agree that the WWE have done a great job with him these past years making him look like the monster he has always been, but he did NOT squash Ryback at Mania 29.

That's my fault sorry, should have made the "pretty much" I said clearer as he got the majority of the offence in regardless.



Don't quote 2004 Raw angles we all know they were stupid. I am saying if WWE has a man go over both Hunter and HBK, at WrestleMania no less, its a big deal. A prime Benoit will make him tap no doubt.

And again, that's because Benoit had a distinctive psychological advantage, and that's why the match was so brilliant. HHH and HBK were so keen on destroying one another that they lost sight of Benoit, Benoit capitalized and won. He doesn't have that benefit against Mark Henry.

Mark Henry did not tap out in his prime and only lost by pinfall once because of John Cena's interference in a No DQ match. Kane powered out of the Crossface during one of his worst years ever (the year with the Snitsky feud). If Kane could do that in 2004, Henry could do it more than once in 2011.

Benoit's finishing moves are simply not very effective against Mark Henry in his prime. The Crossface has been broken before during Benoit's prime by a non-prime Kane and the Diving Headbutt is only going to really work if he grounds Henry, which has been labelled as an incredibly difficult task for someone Benoit's size to do, especially during Henry's dominant peak.

@LJL: Yeah, Henry tapped out clean without any distractions. 7 years before his prime against a prime Benoit.

Papa Pillman
03-28-2014, 04:33 PM
The only one on one match with a clean winner that the two had was won by: Benoit. By tapout. Quickly.

How did Benoit get into the Mania main event in '04? He won the Royal Rumble match that year, as the first entrant. Who was the third entrant in that match? Mark Henry. Who eliminated Henry? If you didn't guess Benoit, then you haven't followed where this was going.

Benoit > Henry.

And the head-to-head stats back it up.

ProWrestlingFan
03-28-2014, 04:36 PM
Chris Benoit

Memeber of the 4 Horsemen, 3 Times WCW Television Champion, 5 Times WCW/WWE US Champion, 4 Time Intercontinental Champion, 6 Time Tag Team Champion, Royal Rumble Winner, 2 times World Heavyweight Champion (Yes, he won the World title in WCW before coming to WWF at Souled Out 2000).

The guy was wrestling Rock for the WWF Championship in 2000.

Vs.

Mark Henry

A guy who used to be called "Sexual Chocolate", was involved in some of the most ridiculous storylines in history and remained a mid-carder/lower mid-carder for the majority of his career and people are comparing him to Benoit just because he had a 2 month long World title reign? There really is no comparison.

Benoit > Henry. Fact.

Pay Per Ghost
03-28-2014, 04:37 PM
And again, that's because Benoit had a distinctive psychological advantage, and that's why the match was so brilliant. HHH and HBK were so keen on destroying one another that they lost sight of Benoit, Benoit capitalized and won. He doesn't have that benefit against Mark Henry.

Mark Henry did not tap out in his prime and only lost by pinfall once because of John Cena's interference in a No DQ match. Kane powered out of the Crossface during one of his worst years ever (the year with the Snitsky feud). If Kane could do that in 2004, Henry could do it more than once in 2011.

Benoit's finishing moves are simply not very effective against Mark Henry in his prime. The Crossface has been broken before during Benoit's prime by a non-prime Kane and the Diving Headbutt is only going to really work if he grounds Henry, which has been labelled as an incredibly difficult task for someone Benoit's size to do, especially during Henry's dominant peak.

@LJL: Yeah, Henry tapped out clean without any distractions. 7 years before his prime against a prime Benoit.


Here's the deal though, Henry was built during the fall of 2011 and culminated only to a Team Johnny position at the next WrestleMania. Benoit won the Rumble from the starting line and eliminated the Big Show to boot. Benoit was booked as a buzzsaw whose tenacity can slay giants in stature and size.

Benoit won when he was pushed against the odds. This would be a great matchup on the road to Mania where Benoit's credibility would be enhanced by a win over a Hall Of Pain Henry.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-28-2014, 04:38 PM
The only one on one match with a clean winner that the two had was won by: Benoit. By tapout. Quickly.

How did Benoit get into the Mania main event in '04? He won the Royal Rumble match that year, as the first entrant. Who was the third entrant in that match? Mark Henry. Who eliminated Henry? If you didn't guess Benoit, then you haven't followed where this was going.

Benoit > Henry.

And the head-to-head stats back it up.

It's nice that you're being subjective enough to consider that this is Prime Benoit against 2004 Mark Henry, 7 years before Henry's prime. I could easily make the argument that because Benoit faltered to the mid-card before his death and was putting over younger superstars like Punk, he would have put over Mark Henry too. That doesn't work; you've got to consider both men at their primes.

George Steele's Barber
03-28-2014, 04:51 PM
Benoit won when he was pushed against the odds. This would be a great matchup on the road to Mania where Benoit's credibility would be enhanced by a win over a Hall Of Pain Henry.

Do you realize you just made an underdog argument for a #4 seed over a #29 seed? What does that tell you about Benoit's career? Are you even trying to make good arguments? Here Mark Henry is the story of the angry veteran getting little respect by the selection committee, not the vanilla midget finally getting his due after years of being held down by the greedy promoter.

nightmare
03-28-2014, 04:54 PM
Some accolades\titles of Chris Benoit:


ECW World Tag Team Championship
IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship
Super J Cup (1994)
Top/Best of the Super Juniors (1993, 1995)
Super Grade Junior Heavyweight Tag League (1994)
UWA/NJPW Light Heavyweight Championship (1991)
WCW United States Heavyweight Championship (2 times)
WCW World Heavyweight Championship
WCW World Tag Team Championship (2 times)
WCW World Television Championship (3 times)
World Heavyweight Championship
WWE Tag Team Championship
WWE United States Championship (3 times)
WWF/E Intercontinental Championship (4 times)
WWF/E World Tag Team Championship (3 times)
Royal Rumble (2004)



...and Mark Henry:

ECW Championship
World Heavyweight Championship
WWF European Championship



Oh. Well now that certainly is a lopsided comparative list now isnt it. Guess that takes care of the 'career' argument.


Now lets look at the actual matches they have had against eachother.


Chris Benoit eliminated Mark Henry in the 2004 Royal Rumble.

Benoit makes Henry tap out on Raw in under 3 minutes.

No contest finish on Smackdown in 2006 because Henry refuses to bring the fight back in the ring.



Benoit wins this match. Henry has nothing over him in terms of career or match history. One little mean streak does not outweigh all Benoit has done in the ring.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-28-2014, 04:57 PM
Chris Benoit - Memeber of the 4 Horsemen, 3 times WCW Television Champion, 5 Times WCW/WWE US Champion, 4 Time Intercontinental Champion, 6 Time Tag Team Champion, Royal Rumble winner, 2 times World Heavyweight Champion (Yes, he won the World title in WCW before coming to WWF at Souled Out 2000).

The guy was wrestling Rock for the WWF Championship in 2000.

Vs.

Mark Henry - A guy who used to be called "Sexual Chocolate", was involved in some of the most ridiculous storylines in history and remained a mid-carder/lower mid-carder for the majority of his career and people are comparing him to Benoit just because he had a 2 month long World title reign? There really is no comparison.

Benoit > Henry. Fact.

Let's evaluate this. He was part of a lesser form of the original Four Horsemen, he held some mid-card championships and left as soon as he won the WCW title, when he was the third or fourth contingency plan to win the title because so much shit was going on at the period.

I'll give you that Benoit is more consistent than Henry anyday of the week. But the idea here is that Benoit really was nothing more than an upper-midcarder that would lose to the bigger stars unless he had a psychological advantage twice or had Eugene's interference. Henry trounced the top babyface of his brand and it took another monster to finally stop him, only for that monster to lose that title instantly because of Henry's damage to him.

Here's the deal though, Henry was built during the fall of 2011 and culminated only to a Team Johnny position at the next WrestleMania. Benoit won the Rumble from the starting line and eliminated the Big Show to boot. Benoit was booked as a buzzsaw whose tenacity can slay giants in stature and size.

Benoit won when he was pushed against the odds. This would be a great matchup on the road to Mania where Benoit's credibility would be enhanced by a win over a Hall Of Pain Henry.

Winning the Rumble from #1 is extremely impressive, but remember, that was a Royal Rumble match and not a one on one match. The objective of that match was to eliminate guys by making them go over the top rope, not ground them for long enough to get a pinfall or submission. Plus, I can throw in the multi man match argument there, as there were 29 other guys in that match that needed to be eliminated apart from Benoit. Also, let's focus on the end of the match, when Big Show wrecked shit. If Benoit had been Big Show's first target, he wouldn't have had time to prepare to eliminate Big Show, and would have been eliminated himself. Instead, Big Show took out Cena, RVD, Jericho and Angle before him, which gave Benoit time to prepare. He won't have that time to prepare against Mark Henry because Henry will be on his case. He won't be able to follow his normal formula because we've spoken about Prime Henry being able to take what Benoit can throw at him.

By that logic, if the match was taking place in the fall, Henry would squash Benoit. This isn't a squash though, it's Mark Henry's dominant time at the top beating Benoit's lukewarm time at the top. Henry wins because of that.

Pay Per Ghost
03-28-2014, 05:14 PM
Do you realize you just made an underdog argument for a #4 seed over a #29 seed? What does that tell you about Benoit's career? Are you even trying to make good arguments? Here Mark Henry is the story of the angry veteran getting little respect by the selection committee, not the vanilla midget finally getting his due after years of being held down by the greedy promoter.

I like angry veterans as much as the next redneck but Benoit was a wolverine.


Winning the Rumble from #1 is extremely impressive, but remember, that was a Royal Rumble match and not a one on one match. The objective of that match was to eliminate guys by making them go over the top rope, not ground them for long enough to get a pinfall or submission. Plus, I can throw in the multi man match argument there, as there were 29 other guys in that match that needed to be eliminated apart from Benoit. Also, let's focus on the end of the match, when Big Show wrecked shit. If Benoit had been Big Show's first target, he wouldn't have had time to prepare to eliminate Big Show, and would have been eliminated himself. Instead, Big Show took out Cena, RVD, Jericho and Angle before him, which gave Benoit time to prepare. He won't have that time to prepare against Mark Henry because Henry will be on his case. He won't be able to follow his normal formula because we've spoken about Prime Henry being able to take what Benoit can throw at him.



I am taking into consideration a prime Henry vs Prime Benoit and I think Prime Benoit wins because he was a bigger deal and got a bigger rocket up his ass to the moon than Henry did. Henry's run did not amount to a ME Mania win and i.e is the be all end all in the WWE for any superstar burning under the radar. Henry was dominant but he wouldn't beat Benoit.

George Steele's Barber
03-28-2014, 05:23 PM
Some accolades\titles of Chris Benoit:


ECW World Tag Team Championship
IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship
Super J Cup (1994)
Top/Best of the Super Juniors (1993, 1995)
Super Grade Junior Heavyweight Tag League (1994)
UWA/NJPW Light Heavyweight Championship (1991)
WCW United States Heavyweight Championship (2 times)
WCW World Heavyweight Championship
WCW World Tag Team Championship (2 times)
WCW World Television Championship (3 times)
World Heavyweight Championship
WWE Tag Team Championship
WWE United States Championship (3 times)
WWF/E Intercontinental Championship (4 times)
WWF/E World Tag Team Championship (3 times)
Royal Rumble (2004)


So what you are trying say is that this is a guy who needs some type of title to get the slightest bit over or this is a guy that promoters lose interest in quickly? Or both?

I'm guessing both.


...and Mark Henry:

ECW Championship
World Heavyweight Championship
WWF European Championship



Oh. Well now that certainly is a lopsided comparative list now isnt it. Guess that takes care of the 'career' argument.


Don't forget the times in Benoit's career where he walked out on the company that paid him and missed an event to murder two people and kill himself. I mean if we are talking about career accomplishments.

Seriously, I don't know if Benoit is more likely jump to a tournament on pwinsider after the first round or murder some girl scouts.

Now lets look at the actual matches they have had against eachother.


Chris Benoit eliminated Mark Henry in the 2004 Royal Rumble.

Show me in the specs where it says this is some type of Battle Royal Match.

Benoit makes Henry tap out on Raw in under 3 minutes.

Am I supposed to vote for Shelton Benjamin over HHH as well?

No contest finish on Smackdown in 2006 because Henry refuses to bring the fight back in the ring.

So with Benoit closer to his prime and Henry still five years from his, they draw. I agree Henry is better.

DarksideEric
03-28-2014, 05:50 PM
Am I supposed to vote for Shelton Benjamin over HHH as well?

Well, if you're going to go with that counterpoint, no, you shouldn't vote for Benjamin for his quick win over HHH. You should vote for HHH for his strong career and long list of accomplishments.

Funnily enough, Shelton has more title wins than Henry does in WWE.

This tournament is about "greatest of all time," correct?

While Henry had a nice monster run for a little while, overall Benoit's career is better. Benoit has had decent - great runs in Stampede, New Japan, ECW, WCW and WWE. Benoit has beaten (arguably) Japan's best wrestler, Jushin Liger, for the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship only five years into his career.

Mark Henry, while he had a dominant period, should logically not go over Benoit in this match if you use career vs. career as evidence and not just pick and choose single runs.

In a tournament choosing "greatest of all time," Henry does not go over Benoit in any logical sense.

Little Jerry Lawler
03-28-2014, 06:01 PM
That's my fault sorry, should have made the "pretty much" I said clearer as he got the majority of the offence in regardless.




And again, that's because Benoit had a distinctive psychological advantage, and that's why the match was so brilliant. HHH and HBK were so keen on destroying one another that they lost sight of Benoit, Benoit capitalized and won. He doesn't have that benefit against Mark Henry.

Mark Henry did not tap out in his prime and only lost by pinfall once because of John Cena's interference in a No DQ match. Kane powered out of the Crossface during one of his worst years ever (the year with the Snitsky feud). If Kane could do that in 2004, Henry could do it more than once in 2011.

Benoit's finishing moves are simply not very effective against Mark Henry in his prime. The Crossface has been broken before during Benoit's prime by a non-prime Kane and the Diving Headbutt is only going to really work if he grounds Henry, which has been labelled as an incredibly difficult task for someone Benoit's size to do, especially during Henry's dominant peak.

@LJL: Yeah, Henry tapped out clean without any distractions. 7 years before his prime against a prime Benoit.

So I'm supposed to be convinced that a guy whose prime was maybe three months at best would beat a guy who has made guys like him, Big Show, and Kane tap at various points throughout his career. I've heard the argument that Big Show couldn't get a clean win over Henry. You can switch that around too as Henry got himself DQ'd at Survivor Series, I believe. Here's the summation - Benoit (who has went up against and defeated most of the top guys in his era) vs. Henry (somebody who didn't do jack shit until 2011 and had two wins over Randy Orton).

I think I know who I'm taking.

George Steele's Barber
03-28-2014, 06:37 PM
I like angry veterans as much as the next redneck but Benoit was a wolverine.

And Henry is a Silverback Gorilla. Would you really put your money on Wolverine over a Silverback Gorilla? I love the original Red Dawn as much as anyone but if you want to argue animal transformations we can watch that Mortal Combat sequel and figure out how this works.


I am taking into consideration a prime Henry vs Prime Benoit and I think Prime Benoit wins because he was a bigger deal and got a bigger rocket up his ass to the moon than Henry did. Henry's run did not amount to a ME Mania win and i.e is the be all end all in the WWE for any superstar burning under the radar. Henry was dominant but he wouldn't beat Benoit.

It's well documented that Vince tried to kill himself after his booking decision to have Benoit win the Rumble. Fortunately HHH was there to pump the pills out of Vince's stomach and sell him on the idea of making the Mania main event a triple threat.

Don't let Vince's mistake carry over in to 2014. The man has enough reminders of his weakest moments.

nightmare
03-28-2014, 07:35 PM
So what you are trying say is that this is a guy who needs some type of title to get the slightest bit over or this is a guy that promoters lose interest in quickly? Or both?

I'm guessing both.


Title = reward. You get over, you get a push, etc. It shows that the man has done more with his career. Henry has been around for quite some time & all he managed to do was win one world title & have sex with an old lady.




Don't forget the times in Benoit's career where he walked out on the company that paid him


So you are holding it against him that he cashed a check on the way off a sinking ship? Seems like a good idea to me if I was in that situation. Too little too late & he was better off for leaving.





and missed an event to murder two people and kill himself.


We all know John Cena is the hired gun in that situation.



Seriously, I don't know if Benoit is more likely jump to a tournament on pwinsider after the first round or murder some girl scouts.


The girl scouts should learn to give out correct change & maybe then they wouldnt have to suffer consequences.

HBsam31
03-29-2014, 03:28 AM
I voted Benoit, but have been flip flopping after reading the arguments. I still think Benoit had the greater career, and would find a way to beat Henry in a match in a tournament. A tournament like this is right up Benoit's ally in my opinion, and he would make Henry tap in the first round.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 07:16 AM
While Henry had a nice monster run for a little while, overall Benoit's career is better. Benoit has had decent - great runs in Stampede, New Japan, ECW, WCW and WWE. Benoit has beaten (arguably) Japan's best wrestler, Jushin Liger, for the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship only five years into his career.

Mark Henry, while he had a dominant period, should logically not go over Benoit in this match if you use career vs. career as evidence and not just pick and choose single runs.

In a tournament choosing "greatest of all time," Henry does not go over Benoit in any logical sense.

You must have missed the analogy I proposed. I proposed that Mark Henry's peak was greater than Benoit's peak. Just because Benoit was more consistent doesn't mean that Benoit would win a match with both guys in their primes.

The idea of the tournament isn't just to find out who is the best. It's taking into account the variables of the match, which is the main reason Vader beat Austin last year, or Kane pretty much automatically wins a first blood match. Benoit would most likely beat guys like Jake Roberts, Rick Rude or Bully Ray because he's not crippled (haha) against them with his offence, while his fighting style IS crippled against a PRIME Mark Henry.

Also, Liger is not even in the Top 5 Japanese wrestlers.

So I'm supposed to be convinced that a guy whose prime was maybe three months at best would beat a guy who has made guys like him, Big Show, and Kane tap at various points throughout his career. I've heard the argument that Big Show couldn't get a clean win over Henry. You can switch that around too as Henry got himself DQ'd at Survivor Series, I believe. Here's the summation - Benoit (who has went up against and defeated most of the top guys in his era) vs. Henry (somebody who didn't do jack shit until 2011 and had two wins over Randy Orton).

I think I know who I'm taking.

Was Big Show tapping when he was the Giant in WCW? Was Kane tapping during his original run? Was Henry tapping out during his Hall of Pain run? No. What's more, it never took a Chris Benoit-esque face to take the title from Henry, it took another monster in a three match war. Henry destroyed him afterwards so Bryan could cash in, and the monsters beat the fuck out of each other in the Cage match so Bryan could escape as the sleeper candidate.

Benoit beat TWO top guys in his prime in 2 triple threat matches, where both were feuding, which gave Benoit the advantage because they were primarily focused on destroying one another. He beat Triple H again because a retarded guy helped him and HHH had the match won. Let's not forget him losing multiple times to La Resistance. Henry was the guy on Smackdown, and with guys like Randy Orton, Sheamus and Big Show, that is an accomplishment. Benoit was behind HBK and HHH, and arguably behind Evolution and Eugene too.

Tastycles
03-29-2014, 07:29 AM
I'm voting Henry. Why? Well it's quite simple really. Wrestling isn't about putting on great matches, it's about connecting with the fans and having them cheer you on or boo you. Henry is the sort of guy that gets where he did because of his size and shape, and it doesn't usually matter that he's uncharismatic. However, in spite of this, he is still twenty times as charismatic as Chris Benoit. Benoit won a title, but so did Henry and it was far more convincing on Henry. Henry is a better wrestler than Chris Benoit.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 07:48 AM
Thanks for highlighting that Tasty, because that's something else I want to bring up. And it's the fact that Benoit simply wasn't very charismatic. He tried, but all the fans wanted to see him do is put on compelling matches, and he did extraordinarily well in that role.

Mark Henry on the other hand is pretty damn charismatic in his own way. Apart from his severely underrated mic-skills (remember the fake retirement, aka pretty much the promo of the year of 2013?), Mark Henry has a genuine charisma of his own. Just look at him:

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/205/7/3/mark_henry_png_by_brokenheartdesignz-d6exue7.png

That's a guy you don't want to fuck with. That's a guy who's a threat to those that get in the ring with him during his prime.

You can call this minor, but it all adds up in the end, whatever way you look at it.

Rainbow Yaz
03-29-2014, 08:03 AM
I'll tell you why I voted Benoit. Hop into my Delorean.

http://cdn2.hauteliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/DMC-12.jpg

Okay we are now in the year 2029, fifteen years from now. I'm a 39 year old Yazzy, and I'm discussing wrestling on some fancy new virtual internet computer machine. People are still talking about Chris Benoit conspiracy theories. Now I know it is well known on these boards that John Cena is the true culprit, but just like 9/11, JFK, Nazi Occultism, and every other story we don't have every single little detail in, people are gonna talk about it. Now we can speculate all day on how Mark Henry fathered a hand, or if he knew he truly was fondling a tranny, but the fact remains that the Benoit murder suicide will always be a bigger story. Therefore Benoit will always be a bigger deal to the wrestling world, and I had to vote for him.

FitFinlay4Life
03-29-2014, 09:00 AM
I'm sorry but I can't vote for a guy who has been getting squashed for over 90% of his career. "Prime" is all very good but there has to be a longer stretch than 6 months in a 18 year career. In that 18 year career Henry has held... 3 titles and 2 of said titles have been discontinued!

Benoit on the other hand held gold everywhere he went. He won every belt of note in WCW (2 time Tag Champion, 3 time TV Title holder, 2 time US Champ and 1 time with Big Gold Belt) and every belt except the WWF World Title in his time there (4 time Tag Champion, 4 time IC Title holder, 3 time US Champ and 1 further go with Big Gold Belt)... and all these belts still exist!

6 months vs 21 years of accomplishments? Yeah, right!

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 09:07 AM
I'm sorry but I can't vote for a guy who has been getting squashed for over 90% of his career. "Prime" is all very good but there has to be a longer stretch than 6 months in a 18 year career. In that 18 year career Henry has held... 3 titles and 2 of said titles have been discontinued!

Benoit on the other hand held gold everywhere he went. He won every belt of note in WCW (2 time Tag Champion, 3 time TV Title holder, 2 time US Champ and 1 time with Big Gold Belt) and every belt except the WWF World Title in his time there (4 time Tag Champion, 4 time IC Title holder, 3 time US Champ and 1 further go with Big Gold Belt)... and all these belts still exist!

6 months vs 21 years of accomplishments? Yeah, right!

You must have missed the analogy I proposed. I proposed that Mark Henry's peak was greater than Benoit's peak. Just because Benoit was more consistent doesn't mean that Benoit would win a match with both guys in their primes.

The idea of the tournament isn't just to find out who is the best. It's taking into account the variables of the match, which is the main reason Vader beat Austin last year, or Kane pretty much automatically wins a first blood match. Benoit would most likely beat guys like Jake Roberts, Rick Rude or Bully Ray because he's not crippled (haha) against them with his offence, while his fighting style IS crippled against a PRIME Mark Henry.


The idea of the WZT is to determine who wins a fight between the wrestlers, not who has won more titles. That's why Vader beat Austin last year - Austin is more accomplished, but Vader's fighting style greatly suited the stipulation.

Benoit would beat Bully Ray because his offensive style works against Bully Ray as an example. His style is ineffective against a prime Mark Henry.

Danger Burger
03-29-2014, 10:50 AM
I see the argument for Benoit's championship run in WWE but this isn't a battle royal or triple threat (despite Henry being the size of two men). Plus this is international and with the exception of Canada, Henry has a much bigger presence internationally than Benoit. The man was an Olympian.

True love always,
GSB (proud of himself for making two arguments without making a murdering joke #growth)

I'm not fully decided which way I'm voting, but this point erked me. Mark Henry was an Olympian, sure, I heard it on WWE TV. without looking it up, do you remember which Olympics? Some sort of power-lifting I assume? Did he win? Does anyone remember?

I'm not sure how relevant it really is either. Especially when Benoit has actual international pro-wrestling acclaim. He's worked for a major wrestling franchise in America, Mexico and Japan. He's held the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Title, won the Super J cup, won best of the super Juniors twice, and won Super Grade Junior Heavyweight Tag League. Thats more titles abroad than Henry has held in his entire WWE run.

Hell, I think I've made my decision. All in all, Henry has done little that can touch Benoit's accomplishments. Benoit was never THE guy, but neither was Henry. Benoit still managed to gather up gold everywhere he went; put on some of the best matches on the card each night; his PWI (as if we care) awards for wrestler of the year and Fued of the year trump Henry's much deserved Improved wrestler of the year.

I wanted to go Henry, but with three measly title reigns and nothing but half a year of success... its not easy. Vote Benoit.

Con T.
03-29-2014, 11:03 AM
I find it quite funny that we're talking about Benoit's legacy...

You want to know what Chris Benoit's actual legacy in wrestling is?

It's this.

XKy9ijjwGQU

That's it, that's the legacy. Now, you may be wondering, what does this have to do with this match?

When you compare it to what Benoit did to the business, a fucking lot. Ratings started to fall after Benoit's death. I wouldn't necessarily say plummet... But definitely fall, and fall hard. In fact, all of WWE's business took an absolute nose dive. The verdict was clear: Chris Benoit's double murder suicide turned away viewers, in droves.

If you want to argue Benoit's legacy is more than Henry's, you have to include the double murder suicide. Especially when you consider what it did to WWE, the wrestling business... In general, all of the negative components. You don't get to discuss the 21 year career, without at least acknowledging how it ended, and how it hurt (some could argue crippled) the business.

FitFinlay4Life
03-29-2014, 11:07 AM
The idea of the WZT is to determine who wins a fight between the wrestlers, not who has won more titles. That's why Vader beat Austin last year - Austin is more accomplished, but Vader's fighting style greatly suited the stipulation.

Benoit would beat Bully Ray because his offensive style works against Bully Ray as an example. His style is ineffective against a prime Mark Henry.

This doesn't have a stipulation, Henry uses a chair - he gets disqualified. There has already been an example of big Mark tapping out so I can't see where you're coming from saying his style would be ineffective. Henry is not renowned for his cardio and resilience, Benoit is - he'd outlast a 'prime' Henry and tap him out when he ran out of steam.

FitFinlay4Life
03-29-2014, 11:11 AM
I find it quite funny that we're talking about Benoit's legacy...

You want to know what Chris Benoit's actual legacy in wrestling is?

It's this.

XKy9ijjwGQU

That's it, that's the legacy. Now, you may be wondering, what does this have to do with this match?

When you compare it to what Benoit did to the business, a fucking lot. Ratings started to fall after Benoit's death. I wouldn't necessarily say plummet... But definitely fall, and fall hard. In fact, all of WWE's business took an absolute nose dive. The verdict was clear: Chris Benoit's double murder suicide turned away viewers, in droves.

If you want to argue Benoit's legacy is more than Henry's, you have to include the double murder suicide. Especially when you consider what it did to WWE, the wrestling business... In general, all of the negative components. You don't get to discuss the 21 year career, without at least acknowledging how it ended, and how it hurt (some could argue crippled) the business.

So, we don't vote for Hogan or Warrior or anyone else that did steroids in the 80s either then because people turned off in the droves after that scandal broke?

Con T.
03-29-2014, 11:18 AM
So, we don't vote for Hogan or Warrior or anyone else that did steroids in the 80s either then because people turned off in the droves after that scandal broke?

I knew this was coming.

Hulk Hogan singlehandedly made professional wrestling a household entity. He made WWF a national company.

Ultimate Warrior wasn't the business draw that Hogan was, but you'd be hard pressed to say his damage to the business actually hurt more than what he put into wrestling.

Chris Benoit is not Hogan or Warrior. He wasn't a main player, he wasn't a top guy that changed the business. Hell, for his twenty one years in wrestling, you could argue he spent six months as a main event name. Chris Benoit did little, if anything, to help the business, when compared to Hogan and even Warrior.

And what he did to help gets eclipsed by how e hurt it. That's how it works... When you do great things for the wrestling business, you can weigh out the bad with the good they put in.

Chris Benoit did noticeably less good things for wrestling. He was a solid hand, a good wrestler. And I think even you can realize that comparing Benoit and Hogan's resumes are fairly different. So when Benoit does something tremendously worse, yeah, it plays more a role in his legacy than Hogan's or Warriors.

Oh, and Hogan never personally killed people. Worth mentioning.

ProWrestlingFan
03-29-2014, 11:31 AM
When you compare it to what Benoit did to the business, a fucking lot. Ratings started to fall after Benoit's death. I wouldn't necessarily say plummet... But definitely fall, and fall hard.

WRONG.

WWE 2007 ratings.

Jan. 1 3.9
Jan. 8 3.65
Jan. 15 4.1
Jan. 22 4.05
Jan 29 4.15
Feb. 5 4.1
Feb. 12 3.0
Feb. 19 4.0
Feb 26 4.3
March 5 4.1
March 12 4.1
March 19 3.7
March 26 3.9
April 2 4.3
April 9 3.9
April 16 3.7
April 23 3.7
April 30 3.6
May 7 3.6
May 14 3.6
May 21 3.7
May 28 3.2
June 4 3.8
June 11 3.8
June 18 4.1
June 25 3.83
July 2 3.7
July 9 3.35
July 16 3.4
July 23 3.37
July 31 2.51
August 6 3.81
August 13 3.8
August 20 3.8
August 27 3.15
September 3 3.6
September 10 3.9
September 17 3.3
September 24 3.4
October 1 3.2
October 8 2.8
October 15 3.3
October 22 3.3
October 29 3.5
November 5 3.75
November 12 3.5
November 19 3.5
November 26 3.54
December 3 3.24
December 10 4.1
December 17 3.48

http://www.gerweck.net/tv-ratings/2007-ratings/

RAW was still getting ratings in high 3s and low 4s after Benoit.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 11:36 AM
This doesn't have a stipulation, Henry uses a chair - he gets disqualified. There has already been an example of big Mark tapping out so I can't see where you're coming from saying his style would be ineffective. Henry is not renowned for his cardio and resilience, Benoit is - he'd outlast a 'prime' Henry and tap him out when he ran out of steam.

No, I used an example of Benoit beating a guy like Bully Ray as an example in a singles match.

Yes, and Kane broke the crossface during Benoit's prime. Henry was nowhere near his prime and is stronger than Kane.

Are you kidding me? Henry is THE world's strongest man in kayfabe. There's got to be some cardio or resilience there, have you seen him pull two trucks after his prime? Also, Benoit's 'resilience' will do him little good when he's being thrown down with force by the WSM.

@Your second post:

1: Warrior and Hogan are both bigger deals than Benoit and the good outweighs the bad.

2: Warrior and Hogan never killed a fucking child.

FitFinlay4Life
03-29-2014, 11:39 AM
I knew this was coming.

Hulk Hogan singlehandedly made professional wrestling a household entity. He made WWF a national company.

Ultimate Warrior wasn't the business draw that Hogan was, but you'd be hard pressed to say his damage to the business actually hurt more than what he put into wrestling.

Chris Benoit is not Hogan or Warrior. He wasn't a main player, he wasn't a top guy that changed the business. Hell, for his twenty one years in wrestling, you could argue he spent six months as a main event name. Chris Benoit did little, if anything, to help the business, when compared to Hogan and even Warrior.

And what he did to help gets eclipsed by how e hurt it. That's how it works... When you do great things for the wrestling business, you can weigh out the bad with the good they put in.

Chris Benoit did noticeably less good things for wrestling. He was a solid hand, a good wrestler. And I think even you can realize that comparing Benoit and Hogan's resumes are fairly different. So when Benoit does something tremendously worse, yeah, it plays more a role in his legacy than Hogan's or Warriors.

Oh, and Hogan never personally killed people. Worth mentioning.

It's hard to quantify how much the murders drove away viewers because many people were drove away from the results that came from the autopsy that reflected very poorly on the WWe - steroids were still running rampant despite their assertion that wasn't the case, they were allowing unprotected headshots and they didn't care if wrestlers were injured - they expected them to suck it up. Throw in the slew of wrestlers who passed away at the time were the prowrestling lifestyle was a major contributor and you might be actually closer to why people turned away from wrestling.

A compelling argument that the murders alone might not be the sole reason is the case of Jimmy Snuka's girlfriend's death were Vince McMahon actually operated as his mouthpiece. When did this happen? 1983 as the WWF was actually getting bigger and bigger.

Con T.
03-29-2014, 11:40 AM
WRONG.

WWE 2007 ratings.

Jan. 1 3.9
Jan. 8 3.65
Jan. 15 4.1
Jan. 22 4.05
Jan 29 4.15
Feb. 5 4.1
Feb. 12 3.0
Feb. 19 4.0
Feb 26 4.3
March 5 4.1
March 12 4.1
March 19 3.7
March 26 3.9
April 2 4.3
April 9 3.9
April 16 3.7
April 23 3.7
April 30 3.6
May 7 3.6
May 14 3.6
May 21 3.7
May 28 3.2
June 4 3.8
June 11 3.8
June 18 4.1
June 25 3.83
July 2 3.7
July 9 3.35
July 16 3.4
July 23 3.37
July 31 2.51
August 6 3.81
August 13 3.8
August 20 3.8
August 27 3.15
September 3 3.6
September 10 3.9
September 17 3.3
September 24 3.4
October 1 3.2
October 8 2.8
October 15 3.3
October 22 3.3
October 29 3.5
November 5 3.75
November 12 3.5
November 19 3.5
November 26 3.54
December 3 3.24
December 10 4.1
December 17 3.48

So, you really mean to tell me you don't notice a perceptive dip from the 4.0s before Benoit, to the mid to lower 3's afterwards?

Right... Sod off with that. Dropping half a point's pretty damn big. And that doesn't factor in 2008 afterwards, where the dip becomes worse.

http://www.twnpnews.com/information/wweraw2008.shtml

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 11:42 AM
WRONG.

WWE 2007 ratings.

Jan. 1 3.9
Jan. 8 3.65
Jan. 15 4.1
Jan. 22 4.05
Jan 29 4.15
Feb. 5 4.1
Feb. 12 3.0
Feb. 19 4.0
Feb 26 4.3
March 5 4.1
March 12 4.1
March 19 3.7
March 26 3.9
April 2 4.3
April 9 3.9
April 16 3.7
April 23 3.7
April 30 3.6
May 7 3.6
May 14 3.6
May 21 3.7
May 28 3.2
June 4 3.8
June 11 3.8
June 18 4.1
June 25 3.83
July 2 3.7
July 9 3.35
July 16 3.4
July 23 3.37
July 31 2.51
August 6 3.81
August 13 3.8
August 20 3.8
August 27 3.15
September 3 3.6
September 10 3.9
September 17 3.3
September 24 3.4
October 1 3.2
October 8 2.8
October 15 3.3
October 22 3.3
October 29 3.5
November 5 3.75
November 12 3.5
November 19 3.5
November 26 3.54
December 3 3.24
December 10 4.1
December 17 3.48

Pre Benoit (including June 25):

The average is:
3.8415384615384607

Post Benoit:

The average is:
3.4519999999999995

I rest my case.

Con T.
03-29-2014, 11:43 AM
It's hard to quantify how much the murders drove away viewers because many people were drove away from the results that came from the autopsy that reflected very poorly on the WWe - steroids were still running rampant despite their assertion that wasn't the case, they were allowing unprotected headshots and they didn't care if wrestlers were injured - they expected them to suck it up. Throw in the slew of wrestlers who passed away at the time were the prowrestling lifestyle was a major contributor and you might be actually closer to why people turned away from wrestling.

So you're willfully saying Benoit himself didn't have an effect on the ratings? Then tell me, why did the countless other weestler's deaths before Benoit (Teat, Eddy) not have nearly the same effect on ratings and business?

A compelling argument that the murders alone might not be the sole reason is the case of Jimmy Snuka's girlfriend's death were Vince McMahon actually operated as his mouthpiece. When did this happen? 1983 as the WWF was actually getting bigger and bigger.

So your point Benoit isn't that big a deal is a murder case that was woefully underreported, which prosecutors now admit was woefully under investigated, and is now just becoming a legitimate story, in 2014?

Sorry, not buying that.

Rainbow Yaz
03-29-2014, 11:50 AM
Fuck, I voted Benoit but those numbers, while having no source and being borderline spam, just prove Haiku's argument that ratings dipped. Benoit died June 24, 2007. The news broke June 25(the day of the Benoit tribute show). It wasn't until the next day that the truth came out and WWE released their statement regarding the situation. It may not have been a huge dip, but it was a dip. Even if you only get to slip in the tip, it still counts.

ProWrestlingFan
03-29-2014, 11:51 AM
So, you really mean to tell me you don't notice a perceptive dip from the 4.0s before Benoit, to the mid to lower 3's afterwards?

Right... Sod off with that. Dropping half a point's pretty damn big. And that doesn't factor in 2008 afterwards, where the dip becomes worse.

http://www.twnpnews.com/information/wweraw2008.shtml

Check out the 2006 ratings

http://www.gerweck.net/tv-ratings/2006-ratings/

Aside from the temporary 4s, WWE's ratings have always been around 3.5. - 3.9 since 2004.

And 2008 was the year WWE went PG.

Con T.
03-29-2014, 11:57 AM
Check out the 2006 ratings

http://www.gerweck.net/tv-ratings/2006-ratings/

Aside from the temporary 4s. WWE ratings have always been around 3.5. - 3.9 since 2004.

And 2008 was the year WWE went PG.

Basically, what tells me is what I already knew... Ratings didn't dip, Benoit did what he did, ratings dipped. All you've done is cement what I've been saying.

Also, does it really matter that WWE went PG? Did anyone over twelve watch Raw before, realize it was now officially PG, and that they could no longer watch, because it was PG.

Please, people didn't tune out because of PG. It was Benoit. And even if it was because of PG, why do you think WWE went PG in the first place?

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 11:57 AM
Check out the 2006 ratings

http://www.gerweck.net/tv-ratings/2006-ratings/

Aside from the temporary 4s. WWE ratings have always been around 3.5. - 3.9 since 2004.

And 2008 was the year WWE went PG.

Certainly more 4's than post Benoit, which I believe was one in 2007.

And the reason WWE went PG is because of Benoit's actions, or that was at least a primary catalyst.

Benoit's achievements in wrestling are overshadowed by his tragic final days. Not to mention, we've already proven why Prime Henry would beat Prime Benoit plenty of times. You guys are just trying to dance around the question and keep referencing a non prime Henry loss to a prime Benoit.

ProWrestlingFan
03-29-2014, 11:59 AM
Fuck, I voted Benoit but those numbers, while having no source and being borderline spam, just prove Haiku's argument that ratings dipped. Benoit died June 24, 2007. The news broke June 25(the day of the Benoit tribute show). It wasn't until the next day that the truth came out and WWE released their statement regarding the situation. It may not have been a huge dip, but it was a dip. Even if you only get to slip in the tip, it still counts.

Not really the point. Look at what Haiku said:

Ratings started to fall after Benoit's death. I wouldn't necessarily say plummet... But definitely fall, and fall hard.

And, after I showed the ratings he changes it to "it dropped half a point". Dropping "half a point" and "ratings fell and fell hard" are two very contradicting statements. And even that wasn't entirely true as WWE still got ratings and high 3s and low 4s after Benoit.

Rainbow Yaz
03-29-2014, 12:02 PM
Then accuse him of hyperbole, but don't post information that backs up his argument. He argued that ratings fell, you posted info that showed that ratings fell.

Like I said, I voted for Benoit because for better or worse he had a much greater impact on the wrestling world than Henry could ever hope for, but if I'm trying to win an argument I'm not gonna present facts that prove my opponent right.

Come to think of it, I would consider changing my vote if I could. Mark Henry may have fathered a hand, but he never killed the deformed little fucker.

Con T.
03-29-2014, 12:08 PM
Not really the point. Look at what Haiku said:



And, after I showed the ratings he changes it to "it dropped half a point". Dropping "half a point" and "ratings fell and fell hard" are two very contradicting statements. And even that wasn't entirely true as WWE still got ratings and high 3s and low 4s after Benoit.

You do realize that a half a point is a pretty big drop, right?

I mean, think about it... That's probably measured around to 500,000 viewers gone. A 500,000 drop, from (let's just round up) 4,000,000 viewers?

Yeah, that's pretty god damned bug, for wrestling. So no matter how you slice it, yeah, that's kind of wrong.

ProWrestlingFan
03-29-2014, 12:09 PM
We are talking about Chris Benoit, the wrestler here not Chris Benoit, the man. And Chris Benoit, the wrestler had a way better career and impact on the wrestling industry than Mark f'n Henry. Mark Henry the wrestler was, is and will always be considered a midcarder, thats his legacy.

Danger Burger
03-29-2014, 12:11 PM
You goofs are arguing everything backwards. Benoit stops showing up, ratings fall... Sounds like Benoit was a draw. How much do you think ratings will drop when Henry kicks the bucket? Not a bit.

Whatever damage Benoit's real life caused, there's still little showing any real plus from Henry's being there. Hit me up with some of that and we'll talk.

And still... over 15 years and only three titles??

Con T.
03-29-2014, 12:12 PM
We are talking about Chris Benoit, the wrestler here not Chris Benoit, the man. And Chris Benoit, the wrestler had a way better career and impact on the wrestling industry than Mark f'n Henry.

And we're back to this... What impact did he have on the wrestling industry, when alive? He wasn't a draw, wasn't a main event fixture. Really, his legacy while alive is certainly not that of an elite wrestler.

And in death... Well, we've already shown the impact he had on the wrestling business. And that isn't counting the ceaseless exposés in the wrestling business that he (yes, he) caused.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 12:20 PM
You goofs are arguing everything backwards. Benoit stops showing up, ratings fall... Sounds like Benoit was a draw. How much do you think ratings will drop when Henry kicks the bucket? Not a bit.

Whatever damage Benoit's real life caused, there's still little showing any real plus from Henry's being there. Hit me up with some of that and we'll talk.

And still... over 15 years and only three titles??

:icon_neutral:

Please tell me you're joking. Ignoring the fact Henry probably won't die while he's still employed in WWE, Henry probably won't murder people IRL and turn people off wrestling because of it. There's also no evidence that Benoit was indeed a draw, especially during his prime when he was overshadowed by HHH and HBK.

I've parroted this point so much but I'll do it again.

Benoit cannot beat Henry because:

He doesn't have the tools to beat a prime Henry.
Prime Henry was beating up upper-midcarders, something Benoit was in his prime
Daniel Bryan, the closest thing to Benoit at the time period was beaten in a one on one match clean by Henry. Yes, it was a Cage match, but you're implying that Benoit was going to run out of the ring and act completely out of character?
Consistency doesn't win you a match unless you were constantly in your prime during that consistent run.


I can go on.

ProWrestlingFan
03-29-2014, 12:27 PM
:icon_neutral:

Please tell me you're joking. Ignoring the fact Henry probably won't die while he's still employed in WWE, Henry probably won't murder people IRL and turn people off wrestling because of it. There's also no evidence that Benoit was indeed a draw, especially during his prime when he was overshadowed by HHH and HBK.

I've parroted this point so much but I'll do it again.

Benoit cannot beat Henry because:

He doesn't have the tools to beat a prime Henry.
Prime Henry was beating up upper-midcarders, something Benoit was in his prime
Daniel Bryan, the closest thing to Benoit at the time period was beaten in a one on one match clean by Henry. Yes, it was a Cage match, but you're implying that Benoit was going to run out of the ring and act completely out of character?
Consistency doesn't win you a match unless you were constantly in your prime during that consistent run.


I can go on.


A Prime Benoit was booked to win the Royal Rumble and beat Shawn Michaels and Triple H clean at Wrestlemania and Backlash, back to back.

A prime Mark Henry wasn't even booked to beat Big Show clean at a B PPV.


A Prime Benoit main evented Wrestlemania and won the company's biggest title

A prime Mark Henry was given the title just because of roster lacking in starpower and not to mention Jack fucking Swagger won the title before Mark Henry.

Con T.
03-29-2014, 12:33 PM
[LIST]
A Prime Benoit was booked to win the Royal Rumble

Too bad this isn't a Royal Rumble.

and beat Shawn Michaels and Triple H at Wrestlemania and Backlash, back to back.

And was booked as the second banana to both men. Shawn was inserted into Benoit and Triple H's match.

Why? Because that was the actual feud...

A prime Mark Henry wasn't even booked to beat Big Show clean at a B PPV.

Ermm... Actually he did.

Money in the Bank. 2011.


A Prime Benoit main evented Wrestlemania and won the company's biggest title

Debatable as be biggest title. And as I've outlined, he wasn't the guy... Triple H was.

Let's see what you get wrong next post.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 12:38 PM
A Prime Benoit was booked to win the Royal Rumble and beat Shawn Michaels and Triple H at Wrestlemania and Backlash, back to back.

A prime Mark Henry wasn't even booked to beat Big Show clean at a B PPV.


A Prime Benoit main evented Wrestlemania and won the company's biggest title

A prime Mark Henry was given the title just because of roster lacking in starpower and not to mention Jack fucking Swagger won the title before Mark Henry.


1: Yeah, with 29 men to factor in and with over the top rope rules, and a match he could have easily lost if he had no time to prepare against Big Show. And triple threat matches where the psychology stems from HBK and HHH hating one another and losing sight on Benoit.

2: It still took Big Show, another monster three tries to stop Henry. Also, this is a FAR more dominant way to defend a championship than enlist the help of a retarded guy.

e0huBz-3tf8

3: Benoit wasn't the focus though. He was just the sleeper candidate who won the Rumble, while HBK and HHH were embroiled in a personal feud, which leads me back to the psychology point.

4: We'll ignore the fact that Mark Henry had Sheamus, Big Show and the biggest babyface aside from Cena to deal with (who he beat clean twice) to contend with, and instead address that Mark Henry's reign offered a resurgence of that title, having great feuds with both Orton and Big Show.

Rainbow Yaz
03-29-2014, 12:39 PM
A prime Miz main evented Wrestlemania and won the company's biggest title. Would you rank Miz above Henry?

A prime Lawrence Taylor main evented Wrestlemania and won a match. Is LT better than Henry?

Hell Mr. T has main evented two Wrestlemanias and won both times, and he didn't even make the tournament despite clearly being better than Henry.

Fuck, I wanna change my vote.

ProWrestlingFan
03-29-2014, 12:39 PM
Too bad this isn't a Royal Rumble.



And was booked as the second banana to both men. Shawn was inserted into Benoit and Triple H's match.

Why? Because that was the actual feud...



Ermm... Actually he did.

Money in the Bank. 2011.



Erm..We are talking about Mark Henry's title reign here. Mark Henry won the title at Night of Champions 2011 not Money in the Bank 2011.

Money in the Bank was in July, Night of Champions was in September. Mark Henry never defeated Big Show clean during his title reign. Let's see what YOU get wrong next post.

Alex
03-29-2014, 12:40 PM
A Prime Benoit was booked to win the Royal Rumble and beat Shawn Michaels and Triple H at Wrestlemania and Backlash, back to back.

You should never count wins in a triple threat because there's an extra man that changes the scenario. Did Benoit ever beat Triple H or Shawn Michaels one on one

A prime Mark Henry wasn't even booked to beat Big Show clean at a B PPV.

He still beat him though


A Prime Benoit main evented Wrestlemania and won the company's biggest title

Benoit main evented with two of the biggest names on the roster (if not of all time)

A prime Mark Henry was given the title just because of roster lacking in starpower and not to mention Jack fucking Swagger won the title before Mark Henry.
[/LIST]

A prime Benoit had the WHC and very few people cared. Surely having the top title means you're supposed to be a big deal, not an afterthought.

Henry took the WHC and ran with it. It's still seen as a great reign whereas Benoit's is basically an afterthought.

Con T.
03-29-2014, 12:46 PM
Erm..We are talking about Mark Henry's title reign here. Mark Henry won the title at Night of Champions 2011 not Money in the Bank 2011.

Money in the Bank was in July, Night of Champions was in September. Mark Henry never defeated Big Show clean during his title reign. Let's see what YOU get wrong next post.

I don't see why including his buildup to becoming champion is a problem :shrug:

In fact, that fully qualifies in this "six month" window everyone is talking about. From June to about April, Henry beat all of these names clean.



Big Show
Kane
Randy Orton
Sheamus
D-Bry


And, if I really want to argue semantics....


A prime Mark Henry wasn't even booked to beat Big Show clean at a B PPV.


Your exact words.

Sounds like a damn good prime to me.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 12:46 PM
Erm..We are talking about Mark Henry's title reign here. Mark Henry won the title at Night of Champions 2011 not Money in the Bank 2011.

Money in the Bank was in July, Night of Champions was in September. Mark Henry never defeated Big Show clean during his title reign. Let's see what you get wrong, next post.

By that logic, the Royal Rumble 2004 never happened, but you seem still intent on posting it.

Also, Mark Henry was beginning his big Hall of Pain push. Big Show was an inductee into the Hall of Pain that night. Big Show returned, and that's what built the compelling feud.

Benoit's feuds consisted of primarily this:

Benoit: OMGZ, I wanted to do this when I was child!

Challenger: Grr, I iz angry guy who thinks u don't deserve it.

Benoit: Fite me then bro.

Challenger: M8, I'll take ur title from u.

*cue the same clips of Benoit each and every time*

Danger Burger
03-29-2014, 12:47 PM
There's also no evidence that Benoit was indeed a draw, especially during his prime when he was overshadowed by HHH and HBK.

When I found out Benoit died, i tuned in for the tribute show... First I'd watched in years. Not sure when the last time I figured "hey Henry should be on this show!"

He doesn't have the tools to beat a prime Henry.

What tools? Taking his legs out? Twisting his neck? If DB (like you said, the closest we have to Benoit) can beat Henry is his prime, why can't Benoit?

Prime Henry was beating up upper-midcarders, something Benoit was in his prime

Prime Benoit was beating Main eventers, something Henry never was. :shrug:

Daniel Bryan, the closest thing to Benoit at the time period was beaten in a one on one match clean by Henry. Yes, it was a Cage match, but you're implying that Benoit was going to run out of the ring and act completely out of character? Who had that title by the end of the Fued? DB beat both Henry and Big Show in a cage match. Benoit beat HHH and Shawn Micheals.

Consistency doesn't win you a match unless you were constantly in your prime during that consistent run. [/quote]

You don't consistantly get the gold in every company you wrestle for without being pretty good. I still don't know how you can argue Henry's three titles over everything Benoit has done in WWE/WCW and NJPW. Singles titles, tag titles, everywhere he went. Versus three titles in 18 years.

ProWrestlingFan
03-29-2014, 12:47 PM
Henry took the WHC and ran with it. It's still seen as a great reign whereas Benoit's is basically an afterthought.

Maybe you do. I bet more people remember the main-event of Wrestlemania 20 and this moment........

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ksvdqn8hYwU/UCKhQWPTAtI/AAAAAAAAFF0/hZTdEuxuRYg/s1600/eddie-guerrero-and-chris-benoit.jpg

......more than some forgettable title reign of a lifelong midcarder on a B show (as nobody really watches Smackdown).

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 12:57 PM
When I found out Benoit died, i tuned in for the tribute show... First I'd watched in years. Not sure when the last time I figured "hey Henry should be on this show!"

Maybe because Henry isn't dead? You're implying too that Benoit wasn't a draw when he was alive.


What tools? Taking his legs out? Twisting his neck? If DB (like you said, the closest we have to Benoit) can beat Henry is his prime, why can't Benoit?


No, Daniel Bryan beat Henry and Big Show in a cage match while they were destroying one another. He escaped with the title because of the same psychological advantage that Benoit had at WM21 and Backlash. Henry in fact beat Bryan clean in a cage match. And don't even try to bring up the 2004 match that Henry and Benoit had.


Prime Benoit was beating Main eventers, something Henry never was. :shrug:


Randy Orton was a main-eventer. Henry beat him clean twice. Benoit needed Eugene's help beating HHH.


Who had that title by the end of the Fued? DB beat both Henry and Big Show in a cage match. Benoit beat HHH and Shawn Micheals.

Like I said, Benoit had the psychological advantage. Also, Michaels and HHH's feud ended at Badd Blood, aka the match AFTER Benoit's defence against Kane.


You don't consistantly get the gold in every company you wrestle for without being pretty good. I still don't know how you can argue Henry's three titles over everything Benoit has done in WWE/WCW and NJPW. Singles titles, tag titles, everywhere he went. Versus three titles in 18 years.

Steve Austin did a hell of a lot more than Vader. That doesn't stop Vader from beating him with an appropriate stipulation. A one on one match against Benoit is an appropriate stipulation for Henry because Benoit needed a distraction to win his title and defend it once in a rematch, beat Kane during one of his worst years and beat HHH because a retarded guy that was more over than Benoit helped him.

@PWF: People remember that moment because both Eddie and Benoit are dead.

Alex
03-29-2014, 01:04 PM
Maybe you do. I bet more people remember the main-event of Wrestlemania 20 and this moment........

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ksvdqn8hYwU/UCKhQWPTAtI/AAAAAAAAFF0/hZTdEuxuRYg/s1600/eddie-guerrero-and-chris-benoit.jpg

......more than some forgettable title reign of a lifelong midcarder on a B show (as nobody really watches Smackdown).

Ok people remember him winning the belt and standing in the ring with Eddie Guerrero. What did he do after that was memorable (besides losing the belt to Randy Orton

FitFinlay4Life
03-29-2014, 01:16 PM
So you're willfully saying Benoit himself didn't have an effect on the ratings? Then tell me, why did the countless other weestler's deaths before Benoit (Teat, Eddy) not have nearly the same effect on ratings and business?

Outside of the wrestling fraternity, nobody really cared about the deaths of Test or Eddy. Once the spotlight came on though, every subsequent death attributed to steroid abuse or pain medication addiction was just another blow to wrestling's reputation.

So your point Benoit isn't that big a deal is a murder case that was woefully underreported, which prosecutors now admit was woefully under investigated, and is now just becoming a legitimate story, in 2014?

Sorry, not buying that.

Never said it wasn't a big deal, just in the same way I'm sure you're not indicating that the death of Snuka's girlfriend isn't a big deal. I don't know the degree to which it was reported but Snuka states that he was hurt at the reporting and surely the subsequent case that was meant to result in him paying her family $500,000 and him refusing to do so received some degree of coverage? Maybe the fans just didn't care, it was nothing to do with their viewing.

Asides from this speculation of Benoit driving fans away from wrestling, that really has nothing to do with how a kayfabe match between the two would pan out (especially as Benoit and his family would have to be alive!) and the simple fact is that no booker would ever place a 6 month wonder over a storied career.

Big Sexy
03-29-2014, 01:31 PM
You can show pictures of two dead guys standing in confetti all you want, it doesn't change the fact that one is horrendously overrated and the other had an atrocious reign as champion. Mark Henry's "Hall of Pain" heel run as a legit challenger and eventual champion was better then anything Benoit ever did in his career. Benoit clearly had the better matches but Henry in his main event run was someone I wanted to watch in spite of his ring work. I haven't even gotten to his fake retirement ceremony which is without a doubt a promo that was 10x better then anything Benoit ever did on the mic. Hall of Pain Mark Henry goes over circa WM20 Benoit.

Con T.
03-29-2014, 01:32 PM
Asides from this speculation of Benoit driving fans away from wrestling,

Speculation that seemingly (and I will admit, there is a seemingly to this) are backed by numbers and common sense.

that really has nothing to do with how a kayfabe match between the two would pan out (especially as Benoit and his family would have to be alive!) and the simple fact is that no booker would ever place a 6 month wonder over a storied career.

Couple things;

A. Mentioning the Benoit case was directed squarely at the arguments (and there were many) that Benoit's legacy as a wrestler is better than Henry's. And all I'm saying is Benoit's legacy includes the double murder suicide.

So I'm really not getting how his legacy is better.

B. of course a booker would book a six month wonder over "stories career"! It happens all of the time. Shit, it happened to Benoit quite a lot. Benoit's storied career, for the vast majority, is being a great mid card wrestler, who made his opponent look great, and usually losing.

So if that's Benoit's greatest accomplishment, why wouldn't the booker have exactly that happen, with the ass kicking monster?

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 01:34 PM
Asides from this speculation of Benoit driving fans away from wrestling, that really has nothing to do with how a kayfabe match between the two would pan out (especially as Benoit and his family would have to be alive!) and the simple fact is that no booker would ever place a 6 month wonder over a storied career.

You tell me, you're the one bringing up the consistency argument which doesn't mean anything in a battle between these guys at their primes. And the fact of the matter is, a booker WOULD put Prime Henry over Prime Benoit. Why? Because Benoit is exactly the kind of guy that would be added to the Hall of Pain. He was nothing more than an upper-midcarder in his own right. I'll think I'll choose the guy that was the guy on Smackdown for 6 months than a guy that was overshadowed by HHH, HBK, Evolution and Eugene during his title reign.

George Steele's Barber
03-29-2014, 01:41 PM
I wonder how many people here have made derogatory remarks regarding Bryan being added to the title match at Mania towards Orton and Batista remember what Mania XX was looking like before the title match became a triple threat?

Nate DaMac
03-29-2014, 04:43 PM
You tell me, you're the one bringing up the consistency argument which doesn't mean anything in a battle between these guys at their primes. And the fact of the matter is, a booker WOULD put Prime Henry over Prime Benoit. Why? Because Benoit is exactly the kind of guy that would be added to the Hall of Pain. He was nothing more than an upper-midcarder in his own right. I'll think I'll choose the guy that was the guy on Smackdown for 6 months than a guy that was overshadowed by HHH, HBK, Evolution and Eugene during his title reign.

Do you not see how ridiculous you sound? Benoit may have been overshadowed by Hunter and Shawn, but at least he was a champion on the brand that mattered. Mark Henry was Champion on Smackdown in 2011, meaning Benoit was Champion on a show with twice the audience. If Benoit was overshadowed, Henry DEFINITELY was overshadowed. And Orton was still the man on Smackdown, Henry never came close to his popularity.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 05:15 PM
Do you not see how ridiculous you sound? Benoit may have been overshadowed by Hunter and Shawn, but at least he was a champion on the brand that mattered. Mark Henry was Champion on Smackdown in 2011, meaning Benoit was Champion on a show with twice the audience. If Benoit was overshadowed, Henry DEFINITELY was overshadowed. And Orton was still the man on Smackdown, Henry never came close to his popularity.

Neither guy shifted the ratings in one way or the other though as their time as champion, it was the stuff that happened in between that changed the ratings. What matters is that Henry had established himself as #1, above guys like Sheamus, Orton and Big Show, while Benoit had considerable difficulty outshining a retarded character that hadn't been around for 6 months at that point.

Orton went onto feud with Cody Rhodes afterwards, the IC Champ at the time. In fact, Henry's two victories dethroned him from the main-event scene until 2013.

Danger Burger
03-29-2014, 06:36 PM
Consistency matters. I'm not talking five-star match consistancy, I'm talking three-title-reigns-in-18-years vs titles-in-every-company-you-work-for kind of consistency. There is a reason companies continuously put titles on Benoit and not on Henry. Its not luck of the draw when it happens that often. The company gets behind you if the people get behind you, if the people get behind you, you are higher on the ladder. Even as the WORLDS STRONGEST MAN it took forever for Mark Henry to get anywhere in the business.

Name one thing Henry has done that Benoit hasn't done better? Has Henry done sixty minutes in a Royal Rumble? Has he main evented 'Mania? if you think the focus of that match was not on Benoit you are paying too much attention to this:
http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/benoit_autocomplete.jpg

and not paying enough attention to how that night actually ended:

http://cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users15/villevalofan666/default/chris-benoit-wrestlemania-xx--large-msg-117310506396.jpg

Both guys have beaten the other, so there's little to suggest either couldn't do the same, but in the business Benoit has totally overshadowed Mark Henry. Especially in the International region, where this is set, if that tickles anyone's fancy.

I see plenty of arguments saying Benoit should lose, he killed his family, ratings dipped, HHH was more important than him (no duh), but very few reasons why Henry should win. Henry didn't fix any ratings, didn't win many titles, didn't last long on top, and was certainly never more important that HHH, if that is somehow a relevant factor. Vote Benoit, because he did more than Henry, did it faster, did it better, and did it everywhere he went.

Con T.
03-29-2014, 06:44 PM
You know what Chris Benoit is at his best doing?

Having really great matches, that he winds up often losing, and making the other guy look like gold.

You know what Mark Henry is at his best doing?

Kicking ass, and looking like an absolute monster.

If you don't pick Mark Henry, you really don't understand either character, or booking in general. It's that simple.

Mark Henry. That's what I do!


Did you miss this post, when I made it?

Because it's still true, and it's still very much the case. No one seems to have acknowledged how much this was Benoit's lot in life. And for as much as everyone is talking about Henry's six months... Mark Henry knew how to play a character, far better than anything Benoit could have.

In the world of professional wrestling, both guys go out, and do the job their best at.

Mark's is destroying fools. Benoit's is making the opponent look great, and losing.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 06:58 PM
Consistency matters. I'm not talking five-star match consistancy, I'm talking three-title-reigns-in-18-years vs titles-in-every-company-you-work-for kind of consistency. There is a reason companies continuously put titles on Benoit and not on Henry. Its not luck of the draw when it happens that often. The company gets behind you if the people get behind you, if the people get behind you, you are higher on the ladder. Even as the WORLDS STRONGEST MAN it took forever for Mark Henry to get anywhere in the business.

The fact of the matter is though, Benoit was consistent. And that's another reason why he'll lose. He was consistent, but because of that, he never became the top guy of his show. Mark Henry did it with plenty of competition, Benoit was used as a tool to put a comedy character over. If this was a tournament on who was more consistent, then Benoit would win. But it isn't. It's not about choosing who had the biggest impact in the business because Hogan, Sammartino, Thesz and Austin would be the final four every time. That's why we have stipulation rounds. It's to determine who would win in a fight against one another in their primes. Benoit's submission holds were broken in his prime by Kane, who not only isn't the World's Strongest Man, but was in one of his worst years ever. If Kane could do it, why couldn't Henry do it in his peak?


Name one thing Henry has done that Benoit hasn't done better? Has Henry done sixty minutes in a Royal Rumble? Has he main evented 'Mania? if you think the focus of that match was not on Benoit you are paying too much attention to this:
http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/benoit_autocomplete.jpg

and not paying enough attention to how that night actually ended:

http://cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users15/villevalofan666/default/chris-benoit-wrestlemania-xx--large-msg-117310506396.jpg


But this isn't the Royal Rumble match. And this is a match where Benoit is psychologically equal with Henry, unlike the triple threat match where he was at an advantage. Main eventing Mania is big, but remember, he was the sleeper candidate that won because of his psychological advantage. The focus on HHH and HBK. Why do you think HBK was added to the match?


Both guys have beaten the other, so there's little to suggest either couldn't do the same, but in the business Benoit has totally overshadowed Mark Henry. Especially in the International region, where this is set, if that tickles anyone's fancy.

When did Benoit ever do anything in Leeds? This is Big Daddy, Haystacks and Davey Boy town, not Benoit town. Don't look into the region, look into the home town. The home town is of neutral ground. If it was in Canada, then Benoit would have a slight advantage, but it isn't. Also, the reason Benoit's reign is more talked about is because Benoit is dead, it happened before Henry's, and it's talked about as being a FAILURE.


I see plenty of arguments saying Benoit should lose, he killed his family, ratings dipped, HHH was more important than him (no duh), but very few reasons why Henry should win. Henry didn't fix any ratings, didn't win many titles, didn't last long on top, and was certainly never more important that HHH, if that is somehow a relevant factor. Vote Benoit, because he did more than Henry, did it faster, did it better, and did it everywhere he went.

Just because he won the WHC title first doesn't make him better at all. And there's plenty of reasons as to why Henry will win, most notably HIS PRIME WAS BETTER THAN BENOIT'S PRIME.

Little Jerry Lawler
03-29-2014, 07:27 PM
The fact of the matter is though, Benoit was consistent. And that's another reason why he'll lose. He was consistent, but because of that, he never became the top guy of his show. Mark Henry did it with plenty of competition, Benoit was used as a tool to put a comedy character over. If this was a tournament on who was more consistent, then Benoit would win. But it isn't. It's not about choosing who had the biggest impact in the business because Hogan, Sammartino, Thesz and Austin would be the final four every time. That's why we have stipulation rounds. It's to determine who would win in a fight against one another in their primes. Benoit's submission holds were broken in his prime by Kane, who not only isn't the World's Strongest Man, but was in one of his worst years ever. If Kane could do it, why couldn't Henry do it in his peak?

Benoit couldn't get the hold on Kane successfully at Bad Blood, but guess what? He still beat him. What happened two weeks later on Raw? Kane was tap, tap, tapping out. Why couldn't Kane break it then? All I saw was Kane losing to Benoit twice. Benoit doesn't need to make big guys tap to win, although he's done it.



But this isn't the Royal Rumble match. And this is a match where Benoit is psychologically equal with Henry, unlike the triple threat match where he was at an advantage. Main eventing Mania is big, but remember, he was the sleeper candidate that won because of his psychological advantage. The focus on HHH and HBK. Why do you think HBK was added to the match?

Because HBK was a whiny bitch who was mad that he had two chances to get the job done against HHH and failed?



When did Benoit ever do anything in Leeds? This is Big Daddy, Haystacks and Davey Boy town, not Benoit town. Don't look into the region, look into the home town. The home town is of neutral ground. If it was in Canada, then Benoit would have a slight advantage, but it isn't. Also, the reason Benoit's reign is more talked about is because Benoit is dead, it happened before Henry's, and it's talked about as being a FAILURE.

You do know that Benoit has wrestled in multiple continents? Henry never did shit in Leeds, either. So this boils down to who the better wrestler is and it's Benoit by a country mile. Is anybody talking about Henry's reign now? Nope.



Just because he won the WHC title first doesn't make him better at all. And there's plenty of reasons as to why Henry will win, most notably HIS PRIME WAS BETTER THAN BENOIT'S PRIME.

Three decent months of a shit career trumps consistency and great matches over two decades? Puh-lease.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 07:44 PM
Benoit couldn't get the hold on Kane successfully at Bad Blood, but guess what? He still beat him. What happened two weeks later on Raw? Kane was tap, tap, tapping out. Why couldn't Kane break it then? All I saw was Kane losing to Benoit twice. Benoit doesn't need to make big guys tap to win, although he's done it.

That's not changing the fact Benoit struggled to apply his finishing move where it mattered the most and where Kane was the most relevant during his feud. When Kane lost at Badd Blood, he lost relevance as a challenger, so there was no harm in letting a far from prime Kane tap out.


Because HBK was a whiny bitch who was mad that he had two chances to get the job done against HHH and failed?


And HHH would have beaten Benoit too if it wasn't for Eugene's interference.


You do know that Benoit has wrestled in multiple continents? Henry never did shit in Leeds, either. So this boils down to who the better wrestler is and it's Benoit by a country mile. Is anybody talking about Henry's reign now? Nope.


I never implied Henry was at an advantage because of that, I in fact said it was neutral ground. Also, read above about how this isn't about crowning the best wrestler ever, it's putting the best wrestlers ever into a tournament environment and seeing which ones have the advantages in their respective rounds. Austin is better than Vader, but Vader could beat him in a bullrope match. Benoit is more consistent than Henry, but Henry could beat him in a normal one on one match with both at their primes.




Three decent months of a shit career trumps consistency and great matches over two decades? Puh-lease.

Read above.

ProWrestlingFan
03-29-2014, 07:55 PM
And HHH would have beaten Benoit too if it wasn't for Eugene's interference.



Oh really? Then you need to watch this match.

Chris Benoit defeats Triple H clean

7JttScqLuYc


And for your information, Benoit has wrestled Triple H 4 times in one on one matches, Benoit won 3 of them and the only time Triple H won, it was because of interference.

Benoit is 3-1 against Triple H in one-on-one matches.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 07:58 PM
Oh really? Then you need to watch this match.

Benoit defeats Triple H clean

7JttScqLuYc

And for your information, Benoit has wrestled Triple H 4 times in one on one matches, Benoit won 3 of them and the only time Triple H won it was because of interference.

Benoit is 3-1 against Triple H in one-on-one matches.

Eddie's Tribute Show. That says it all really. Storyline advancement didn't matter on that day, it was just a means to entertain the fans coping with the grief of Eddie's sudden and tragic death. It would beyond fucking stupid if they gave Triple H, a heel the win over Eddie's best friend on that day.

Also, where's the third?

Dowdsy McDowds
03-29-2014, 08:17 PM
I know that most of the emphasis on this match up is being placed on whose prime was best but what swayed me with Benoit was how good his non-prime was.

The ladder match with Jericho at the 2001 Royal Rumble is easily in the top 10 ladder matches of all time.

Any match with Angle is joyful to behold.

Austin and HHH losing the tag-team titles to the two Chris' lives long in the memory.

Henry's retirement promo was very good but his actual matches outside of his Hall of Pain stint are incredibly hard to recall and while technically it wasn't his match, an abiding memory is that of him struggling with a cage door.

This and LJL's comments are what made me go for Benoit in the end.

Little Jerry Lawler
03-29-2014, 08:48 PM
The main argument I see is that we're comparing primes - mainly when Benoit and Henry won titles since everyone keeps bringing up Benoit's title reign. I think that argument is silly since there have been numerous wrestler who didn't win titles in their prime. I suppose the same people who are arguing for Henry are going to use the same rationale for Kane and say that his prime was in 2010. I guess I can play along.

If we're going off of the argument that Benoit's prime was 2004, he sure did a lot before his prime. He beat Rock, HHH, and Angle before his prime. He beat HHH, HBK, and Kane during his prime. He defeated Henry by submission and Big Show by submission and pinfall before his prime. He did Kane the same way during his prime. I'll stop right there.

If Benoit's prime is 2004, he is pretty accomplished before then and all that is still better than what Mark Henry did for three months.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 08:58 PM
The main argument I see is that we're comparing primes - mainly when Benoit and Henry won titles since everyone keeps bringing up Benoit's title reign. I think that argument is silly since there have been numerous wrestler who didn't win titles in their prime. I suppose the same people who are arguing for Henry are going to use the same rationale for Kane and say that his prime was in 2010. I guess I can play along.

If we're going off of the argument that Benoit's prime was 2004, he sure did a lot before his prime. He beat Rock, HHH, and Angle before his prime. He beat HHH, HBK, and Kane during his prime. He defeated Henry by submission and Big Show by submission and pinfall before his prime. He did Kane the same way during his prime. I'll stop right there.

If Benoit's prime is 2004, he is pretty accomplished before then and all that is still better than what Mark Henry did for three months.

Do you think Benoit's prime was 2004, or another period? I'm willing to embrace a new idea of Benoit's prime if you give some good reasoning, but I believe most people accept his time as WHC his prime.

And if that's a gibe at me, Kane's prime was his original 97-98 run.

I'll respond to your arguments when I'm not tired as fuck.

Con T.
03-29-2014, 09:10 PM
The main argument I see is that we're comparing primes - mainly when Benoit and Henry won titles since everyone keeps bringing up Benoit's title reign. I think that argument is silly since there have been numerous wrestler who didn't win titles in their prime. I suppose the same people who are arguing for Henry are going to use the same rationale for Kane and say that his prime was in 2010. I guess I can play along.

If we're going off of the argument that Benoit's prime was 2004, he sure did a lot before his prime. He beat Rock, HHH, and Angle before his prime. He beat HHH, HBK, and Kane during his prime. He defeated Henry by submission and Big Show by submission and pinfall before his prime. He did Kane the same way during his prime. I'll stop right there.

If Benoit's prime is 2004, he is pretty accomplished before then and all that is still better than what Mark Henry did for three months.

Chris Benoit beat The Rock twice.

Chris Benoit lost to The Rock ten times in one on one matches.

Oh, and he never beat Austin.

Oh, and he still has a losing record against Angle.

Let's not make Chris Benoit anything more than he is; he's a mid card guy who scored victories from time to time. But his main job in the world of professional wrestling was to make his opponents look great, before jobbing.


There's certainly nothing wrong with that. But guys like that come a dime a dozen, and they rarely last that long in the main event. See; Jericho, Chris.

Benoit always has been, and always will be, that guy. So in a match with the ass kicking monster, he makes the ass kicking monster look good.

Or do you still not get how Chris Benoit's one character worked throughout his 21 year career?

The Brain
03-29-2014, 09:42 PM
I definitely didn't expect this match to get so much attention. A lot of people are trying to diminish the career of Chris Benoit. I understand if you think he's overrated. That's fine. I get it if you consider him a career midcarder who occasionally made it to the main event. That's fine too. I won't argue that, and I shouldn't have to because even if that is 100% accurate it's still a better career than Mark Henry. At the beginning of his career Mark Henry was a joke. For the first ten years the term midcarder that you use to insult Benoit would be giving Henry too much credit. Up until 2006 Mark Henry was well below the mid card and even between 2006 and his peak in 2011 Henry would still disappear for months at a time. But none of that was his prime, right? Ok fine. Henry has had an 18 year career and a six month prime. Why does everyone put so much stock into such a small percentage? And what happened after Henry lost the title? Disappeared for a while again as usual and hasn't come close to being what he was during that short six month span in 2011. If Mark Henry was the man he was during the second half of 2011 for a few years I may have given him my vote. The small sample size just doesn't cut it for me.

I'm glad this thread was completely dominated by discussion of the Benoit murders but it has come up a lot. I don't think that is relevant at all and I think people are using their personal feelings about that in this poll. You have the right to vote for who you want for whatever reason you want but I wish that wasn't a factor.

Based on only their careers Benoit was the better wrestler. Pretend Benoit retired in June 2007 and he and his family were still alive and living a normal life. Who would get your vote then?

ProWrestlingFan
03-29-2014, 09:48 PM
Chris Benoit beat The Rock twice.

Chris Benoit lost to The Rock ten times in one on one matches.

Oh, and he never beat Austin.

Oh, and he still has a losing record against Angle.

Let's not make Chris Benoit anything more than he is; he's a mid card guy who scored victories from time to time. But his main job in the world of professional wrestling was to make his opponents look great, before jobbing.


There's certainly nothing wrong with that. But guys like that come a dime a dozen, and they rarely last that long in the main event. See; Jericho, Chris.

Benoit always has been, and always will be, that guy. So in a match with the ass kicking monster, he makes the ass kicking monster look good.

Or do you still not get how Chris Benoit's one character worked throughout his 21 year career?

Mark Henry was playing second fiddle to Jeff Jarrett and D'Lo Brown in 1999. Then he was sent to OVW for 2 years because he couldn't wrestle for shit. Then in 2003 he was put in a mid-card tag team with Rodney Mack and occassionally jobbing to guys like Brock Lesnar.

http://beyondthesquaredcircle.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/45.jpg

Then he got failed push in 2006 when he was fed to Angle, Undertaker, Lashley etc. Spent the next 4 years as a comedy jobber.


http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq41/TheMonsterAbyssWS/MarkSwoggle.jpg

Very "badass ass-kicking monster monster" huh?

Then after 15 year of being in the company he was given a run with the mid-card title and a gimmick called "Hall of Pain". Big Deal.

Benoit always has been, and always will be, that guy. So in a match with the ass kicking monster, he makes the ass kicking monster look good.


Correction : Mark Henry always has been, and always will be, that guy. So in a match with the ass kicking monster, he makes the ass kicking monster look good.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/20140106/4946618/brock-lesnar-breaks-mark-henry-s-arm-o.gif

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/5T__QTqu6WA/hqdefault.jpg

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-29-2014, 09:57 PM
I'm too tired, but I want to nip this stupidity in the bud ASAP.


Correction : Mark Henry always has been, and always will be, that guy. So in a match with the ass kicking monster, he makes the ass kicking monster look good.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/20140106/4946618/brock-lesnar-breaks-mark-henry-s-arm-o.gif

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/5T__QTqu6WA/hqdefault.jpg

Oh wow, it's too bad that NONE of those guys are Chris Benoit or anyone similar (don't bother posting the 2004 match, we've deemed it irrelevant), and that those guys would kick prime Benoit's ass too. Not to mention Henry wasn't in his prime in either of those encounters.

Also, it's cute you're posting pictures outside of Henry's prime. Maybe show me Henry being jobbed out in his prime, and we'll talk. While Benoit was having his finishing move broken and being helped by a comedy character.

Con T.
03-29-2014, 09:59 PM
Did you enjoy your trip to Wikipedia, PWF?

All you've shown me is that Mark Henry is much better at being a full rounded character than Chris Benoit ever was. Chris Benoit's funniest moment was burying Orlando Jordan. Woo. TNA did that, too, and TNA isn't funny. At least, not intentionally.

But yeah, Mark Henry could do comedy. He can pull at your heart strings (see; his retirement promo). I guess what I'm getting at is that Mark Henry could emote.

Oh, and Mark Henry pinned Kurt Angle. Beat him by count out, too. And all of the names you mentioned soundly bear Chris Benoit, as well.

Seriously, leave this to the real posters.

ProWrestlingFan
03-29-2014, 10:09 PM
Make lame excuses all you want.

"Oh we don't count the match you showed where Mark Henry tapped out because that was before his prime"

"Oh we don't count him jobbing to CM Punk, Sheamus, John Cena etc etc in 2012/2013 because that was after his prime"

When a guy's prime is only 2 months out of a 15 year career, the guy is joke.

But of course some of you lamebrains will keep making BS arguements because you were backing the joke called Mark Henry from the beginning.

Benoit's career > Mark Henry's joke of a career and thats the bottom line.

Nate DaMac
03-29-2014, 10:30 PM
PWF is a moron, but he's right. Both guys were nothing as main eventers. If you're trying to say that Henry was a big deal, you're wrong. They're both career mid carders with a cup of coffee in the main event. Even if we pretend that their main event runs were equal (they're not, Benoit's was objectively better in every regard) it's a wash and that just leaves their mid card runs for comparison. If anyone here wants to try and say that a mid card Mark Henry is better than a mid card Chris Benoit, you need mental help.

FitFinlay4Life
03-29-2014, 11:03 PM
Mark Henry's career stats:
1 vs. 1 Matches:718 Wins:377 Win%:52.5 Losses:320 Loss%:44.6 Draws:21 Draw%:2.9

Chris Benoit's career stats:
1 vs. 1 Matches:1148 Wins:738 Win%:64.3 Losses:350 Loss%:30.5 Draws:60 Draw%:5.2

Even in 2011 - the alleged 'prime' Henry era, his 1 vs. 1 record from his transfer in April 2011 to SmackDown until his injury in April 2012 was W:39 L:46 D:7 (and many of those wins were against 'greats' like Yoshi Tatsu, Zack Ryder, John Morrison, Great Khali, Zeke, Johnny Curtis, Vladimir Kozlov, Bobby Heller and Chavo Jnr).

From January - December 2004 - Benoit had the following 1vs. 1 record: W81 L:15 D:3.

So much for the 'prime' argument!

nightmare
03-29-2014, 11:46 PM
Putting stock into a prime argument that consists of a small time span is one thing if the wrestler has had a short career. When someone has a career of 15 yrs + being mediocre at best, then that small time frame considered 'prime' needs to be pretty epic. People are talking about Henry's prime as if he was Goldberg or something. He was a good monster heel for the 'B' show, but epic it was not.


So I am supposed to put more stock in his little run than an entire consistent career by Benoit? No.


The run that everyone considers Henry at his prime was not really all that impressive. His most credible threat was actually Orton who they used to help legitimize the push by dropping the title. Show was used just like he usually is. Act like a giant but remember to make the other guy look good. Ultimately even that wasnt working too terribly well because they kept adding someone else into the picture for most of his feud with Show. (ex: Daniel Bryan & Sheamus) Plus they even re-used the Lesnar superplex spot with Henry\Show basically saying "Hey, this guy is a monster. No, really. Forget all the years of comedy- he's scary now."


The Hall of Pain was a great catchphrase. It really was, because without it this whole push would not have been the same. Problem is who he was running through as they built Henry up. Not exactly the biggest names. Kozlov, Khali, Big Zeke, Johnny Curtis, Morrison, etc. Along the way they fed him Christian & a few others but mostly in random Tag matches to offset things till Show came back to continue the feud. Then we are back to the Daniel Bryan thing & well, we all know the rest.


So what we have are 2 guys who never necessarily set the world on fire with their main event title runs, but one got WM & one did not. One who has been as solid of an upper mid card competitor you can get -vs- one who had potential, but never really did much other than being a good comedic 'hand'. One is an international wrestling star with a dark ending & one is a weightlifting star who transitioned to a mediocre wrestling career.


Since we are somehow throwing out the fact Benoit actually beat Henry, then we are just left with comparing career accomplishments. Benoit still wins regardless.

LSN80
03-30-2014, 12:20 AM
The only big push Mark Henry ever got was in 2006 and even then he was constantly booked to lose to Kurt Angle,Undertaker,Batista etc.


It was???

Does the 'Hall of Pain' ring a bell to you? That was established in 2011, when Henry was destroying opponents left and right. It got to the point where no one wanted to face him until Sheamus stepped up, and Henry destroyed him at Summerslam. He beat up and put out the Big Show, and did the same to Kane, Pillmanizing them both after clean victories over each. Then there's that match he had with Randy Orton, the face of Smackdown in 2011, at Night of Champions. Henry tossed Orton around like a rag doll, gave him a World's Strongest Slam, and won the World Heavyweight Title.

When Henry and Benoit fought in 2006, Henry not only came out on top, he injured Benoit in the process. Those other wrestlers you mentioned, Batista, Undertaker, and Angle? Henry beat them up too, and put all three out of action for significant amounts of time.

Benoit's title reign was a joke, while Henry was established as a monster heel who could not only defeat, but also, injure anyone in the process. Benoit took weekly beatings from Evolution before dropping the title to Randy Orton in his first try. It took Big Show three tries to finally win the title from Henry, and it was a chairs match at that.

This is a one-on-one, standard match. Benoit is seeded far too high here, and he's gotten a bad draw on top of that. Henry wins this with a WSS, or by countout after he rag-dolls Benoit into the post or through the ring-side barrier.

Either way, Mark Henry in his prime wins this match.

Little Jerry Lawler
03-30-2014, 12:40 AM
What happened in 2004, you know, 2 years before 2006? Again, Henry lost to Benoit in less than 3 minutes. What was Henry's excuse then? I must have missed Angle being out for a significant amount of time. I know the reason why. It never happened.

Against Big Show, the ring broke the first time and Henry was a coward and got himself DQ'd the second time. Benoit didn't need to get disqualified to beat Big Show twice.

Undertaker has been put out of action 30 times over the past decade. Is that supposed to impress me?

All Henry's title reign amounted to was beating Orton two times and Daniel Bryan who was losing left and right before cashing in MITB. What has happened since then? Being made Brock Lesnar's bitch and the occasional sidekick to Big E. Langston. Bravo, Mark.

El Rev sXe
03-30-2014, 01:09 AM
What was at first a hard decision, it eventually became clear that Benoit got this. Why? There is one reason, and it isn't the fact that he made tap out Henry in 3 minutes (or Big Show, or Kane or any other "big monster" the WWE has to offer), but the fact that Chris Benoit not only won the WHC at the biggest PPV wrestling has to offer, but he did it by defeating (making tap out to be exact) two of the BIGGEST names WWE has, Triple H and Shawn Michaels.

Now that's three impressive accolades, to wich Henry only shares one: being WHC: He didn't headline any Wrestlemania and he didn't defeat two of the greatest wrestlers two PPV in a row. Sure he did defeat Orton to win the WHC, but he wasn't/isn't a the same high as "Mr. Wrestlemania" or HHH.

Nate DaMac
03-30-2014, 03:51 AM
It was???

Does the 'Hall of Pain' ring a bell to you? That was established in 2011, when Henry was destroying opponents left and right. It got to the point where no one wanted to face him until Sheamus stepped up, and Henry destroyed him at Summerslam.

Won by countout. Not impressive.

He beat up and put out the Big Show, and did the same to Kane, Pillmanizing them both after clean victories over each.

... in 2011. Nearly a decade since either guy's prime.

Then there's that match he had with Randy Orton, the face of Smackdown in 2011, at Night of Champions. Henry tossed Orton around like a rag doll, gave him a World's Strongest Slam, and won the World Heavyweight Title.

This is like, page 13 of this thread. Don't you think we've been over this by now?

When Henry and Benoit fought in 2006, Henry not only came out on top,

No he didn't.

he injured Benoit in the process. Those other wrestlers you mentioned, Batista, Undertaker, and Angle? Henry beat them up too, and put all three out of action for significant amounts of time.

He's never beaten Batista or Taker.

Benoit's title reign was a joke, while Henry was established as a monster heel who could not only defeat, but also, injure anyone in the process.

How exactly is Mark Henry's run of beating past their prime giants, Christian, and a not yet prime Daniel Bryan anywhere near Benoit beating Triple H, Michaels, and a Kane that is still relevant? At least Benoit main evented PPVs during his reign.

Benoit took weekly beatings from Evolution before dropping the title to Randy Orton in his first try. It took Big Show three tries to finally win the title from Henry, and it was a chairs match at that.

... You're smarter than that, LSN. First of all, unless you're trying to convince us that the match would end in Mark Henry getting DQ'd or counted out, all of this talk of beatdowns is meaningless. Second of all, you're trying to show a weakness in Benoit while masking Henry's. Benoit lost to Orton in a straight up one on one fight. It was a clean loss. Henry and Show had a draw and Henry got DQ'd in his 2 prior matches with Show. He was scared of Show. The same Big Show who was more than a decade past his prime. The same Big Show who Benoit beat in what some consider Show's prime.

This is a one-on-one, standard match. Benoit is seeded far too high here, and he's gotten a bad draw on top of that. Henry wins this with a WSS, or by countout after he rag-dolls Benoit into the post or through the ring-side barrier.

Either way, Mark Henry in his prime wins this match.

Benoit in 2004 was the ultimate underdog. He won the Rumble from the number one spot and then went on to win a Wrestlemania match against two of the biggest stars of the best 25 years.

Mark Henry, in 2011, was built as a monster heel.

Common sense tells us that the underdog babyface goes over the monster heel. Do you not see how this works? Does anyone here understand elementary booking or has everyone lost their fucking minds?

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-30-2014, 09:13 AM
Mark Henry's career stats:
1 vs. 1 Matches:718 Wins:377 Win%:52.5 Losses:320 Loss%:44.6 Draws:21 Draw%:2.9

Chris Benoit's career stats:
1 vs. 1 Matches:1148 Wins:738 Win%:64.3 Losses:350 Loss%:30.5 Draws:60 Draw%:5.2

Even in 2011 - the alleged 'prime' Henry era, his 1 vs. 1 record from his transfer in April 2011 to SmackDown until his injury in April 2012 was W:39 L:46 D:7 (and many of those wins were against 'greats' like Yoshi Tatsu, Zack Ryder, John Morrison, Great Khali, Zeke, Johnny Curtis, Vladimir Kozlov, Bobby Heller and Chavo Jnr).

From January - December 2004 - Benoit had the following 1vs. 1 record: W81 L:15 D:3.

So much for the 'prime' argument!

It's funny that you've taken none of that into context. After his title reign, Benoit was on fucking Heat beating up Rodney Mack and Tomko, and wrestling guys like Rob Conway. He drew against Eugene, a comedy retard. I can go on.

And more often than not, Henry's losses were DQ's because of his savagery and not major matches, like you said. Benoit's losses were nearly all pinfalls. Henry was almost never beaten clean during that period. Also, his prime ended at Royal Rumble 2012 because he left the main event scene after.

If you going to use statistics, at least use some context.

Putting stock into a prime argument that consists of a small time span is one thing if the wrestler has had a short career. When someone has a career of 15 yrs + being mediocre at best, then that small time frame considered 'prime' needs to be pretty epic. People are talking about Henry's prime as if he was Goldberg or something. He was a good monster heel for the 'B' show, but epic it was not.


So I am supposed to put more stock in his little run than an entire consistent career by Benoit? No.


The run that everyone considers Henry at his prime was not really all that impressive. His most credible threat was actually Orton who they used to help legitimize the push by dropping the title. Show was used just like he usually is. Act like a giant but remember to make the other guy look good. Ultimately even that wasnt working too terribly well because they kept adding someone else into the picture for most of his feud with Show. (ex: Daniel Bryan & Sheamus) Plus they even re-used the Lesnar superplex spot with Henry\Show basically saying "Hey, this guy is a monster. No, really. Forget all the years of comedy- he's scary now."


The Hall of Pain was a great catchphrase. It really was, because without it this whole push would not have been the same. Problem is who he was running through as they built Henry up. Not exactly the biggest names. Kozlov, Khali, Big Zeke, Johnny Curtis, Morrison, etc. Along the way they fed him Christian & a few others but mostly in random Tag matches to offset things till Show came back to continue the feud. Then we are back to the Daniel Bryan thing & well, we all know the rest.


So what we have are 2 guys who never necessarily set the world on fire with their main event title runs, but one got WM & one did not. One who has been as solid of an upper mid card competitor you can get -vs- one who had potential, but never really did much other than being a good comedic 'hand'. One is an international wrestling star with a dark ending & one is a weightlifting star who transitioned to a mediocre wrestling career.


Since we are somehow throwing out the fact Benoit actually beat Henry, then we are just left with comparing career accomplishments. Benoit still wins regardless.

Both guys were mid-carders for the majority of their careers. If this was a battle between them at their mid-card stages, Benoit would win. But in Henry's prime, against a prime upper-midcarder Benoit, Benoit would be exactly the kind of guy to be inducted into the Hall of Pain, just like the other upper-midcarders that got inducted. Not to mention, Henry in general has the advantage in a match because of his strength and size. Benoit's style is not very effective against a prime Henry.

The superplex spot made Henry look like a monster. It showed the immense amount of power that Henry had, and it was a great conclusion to a decent battle of the beasts. The story was the monsters trying to conquer one another, with Henry attaining the K.O the first meeting, Henry getting DQ'd the second time and a final war for the title in a chair match, where Henry lost and destroyed Big Show for Bryan to cash in.

All of those names apart from Morrison and Johnny Curtis (and even then, a case COULD be made as the NXT winner for Curtis and former ECW and Tag Champion Morrison) helped convey the point of the Hall of Pain. The monsters (You forgot Kane) all naturally helped Henry establish him as the King of the Monsters and it helped showcase Henry's immense strength. It's what made the feud between Show and Henry surprisingly very compelling. Those monsters were credible threats that were destroyed. Then Henry moved onto destroying the upper-midcarders before dominating the main-event scene until Big Show returned.

This isn't a tournament to determine how consistent someone is, otherwise people would just say "Rocky Maivia" or "The Ringmaster" when they argue against Rock or Austin. It's a tournament to determine who has the tools to survive in a tournament environment. Both of these guys could beat multiple guys in the first round, but Benoit has a rotten draw against a guy who could power out of his submission holds, can't be suplexed by Benoit, and strikes do very little unless coming from another monster. The 2004 mach didn't mean jackshit because Henry meant nothing at that point. When he actually mattered, his run at the top overshadowed Benoit's run at the top.

Little Jerry Lawler
03-30-2014, 10:05 AM
Both guys were mid-carders for the majority of their careers. If this was a battle between them at their mid-card stages, Benoit would win. But in Henry's prime, against a prime upper-midcarder Benoit, Benoit would be exactly the kind of guy to be inducted into the Hall of Pain, just like the other upper-midcarders that got inducted. Not to mention, Henry in general has the advantage in a match because of his strength and size. Benoit's style is not very effective against a prime Henry.

Hasn't stopped Benoit from being him and others of similar strength and size.

The superplex spot made Henry look like a monster. It showed the immense amount of power that Henry had, and it was a great conclusion to a decent battle of the beasts. The story was the monsters trying to conquer one another, with Henry attaining the K.O the first meeting,

It was declared a no-contest. Henry didn't attain anything.

Henry getting DQ'd the second time

So he took the coward's way out? Henry beat him before he was champion. He was too scared to do it when it counted?

and a final war for the title in a chair match, where Henry lost and destroyed Big Show for Bryan to cash in.

Couldn't destroy him and get the pinfall, now could he?



but Benoit has a rotten draw against a guy who could power out of his submission holds

xmadj3

can't be suplexed by Benoit

xksdvb


If he could do this to Viscera, he could certainly do the same to Henry.

and strikes do very little unless coming from another monster

Kurt Angle beat Henry after he took out Batista. Matt Hardy beat Henry clean as a sheet to retain the ECW title. And why can't Benoit beat Henry again?

The 2004 mach didn't mean jackshit because Henry meant nothing at that point.

How long has Henry been billed as the World's Strongest Man?

Was he a weakling in 2004?

I thought he always had his strength and his size. Was he 200 pounds back then and I just didn't see it?

When he actually mattered, his run at the top overshadowed Benoit's run at the top.

Sure took him a long time to actually matter.

FitFinlay4Life
03-30-2014, 02:22 PM
It was???

Does the 'Hall of Pain' ring a bell to you? That was established in 2011, when Henry was destroying opponents left and right. It got to the point where no one wanted to face him until Sheamus stepped up, and Henry destroyed him at Summerslam. He beat up and put out the Big Show, and did the same to Kane, Pillmanizing them both after clean victories over each. Then there's that match he had with Randy Orton, the face of Smackdown in 2011, at Night of Champions. Henry tossed Orton around like a rag doll, gave him a World's Strongest Slam, and won the World Heavyweight Title.

When Henry and Benoit fought in 2006, Henry not only came out on top, he injured Benoit in the process. Those other wrestlers you mentioned, Batista, Undertaker, and Angle? Henry beat them up too, and put all three out of action for significant amounts of time.

Benoit's title reign was a joke, while Henry was established as a monster heel who could not only defeat, but also, injure anyone in the process. Benoit took weekly beatings from Evolution before dropping the title to Randy Orton in his first try. It took Big Show three tries to finally win the title from Henry, and it was a chairs match at that.

This is a one-on-one, standard match. Benoit is seeded far too high here, and he's gotten a bad draw on top of that. Henry wins this with a WSS, or by countout after he rag-dolls Benoit into the post or through the ring-side barrier.

Either way, Mark Henry in his prime wins this match.

Jan - Dec 2004 Chris Benoit's record by opponent:

Batista: W10 L1 D0
Big Show: W0 L1 D0
Rob Conway: W2 L0 D0
Edge: W8 L2 D2
Eugene: W0 L0 D1
Ric Flair: W5 L0 D0
Matt Hardy: W1 L0 D0
Triple H: W24 L7 D0
Mark Henry: W2 L0 D0
Chris Jericho: W1 L0 D0
Kane: W15 L0 D0
Rodney Mack: W1 L0 D0
Shawn Michaels: W1 L1 D0
Matt Morgan: W0 L1 D0
Randy Orton: W2 L2 D0
Chuck Palumbo: W6 L0 D0
Rhyno: W1 L0 D0
Tyson Tomko: W1 L0 D0
Viscera: W1 L0 D0

Totals: W81 L15 D3

This becomes even more impressive if we only take his WHC run:

Batista: W3 L0 D0
Rob Conway: W1 L0 D0
Eugene: W0 L0 D1
Ric Flair: W3 L0 D0
Triple H: W24 L0 D0
Kane: W14 L0 D0
Shawn Michaels: W1 L0 D0
Matt Morgan: W0 L1 D0
Randy Orton: W2 L1 D0
Rhyno: W1 L0 D0

Totals: W49 L2 D1 (Record against Evolution: W32 L1 D0)


Mark Henry's period from his transfer to SmackDown in April 2011 - April 2012 (when he got injured).

Big Show: W4 L11 D2
Daniel Bryan: W6 L3 D1
John Cena: W0 L2 D0
Christian: W1 L1 D0
Johnny Curtis: W1 L0 D0
Chavo Guerrero Jnr: W1 L0 D0
Bobby Heller: W1 L0 D0
Ezekial Jackson: W3 L0 D0
Kane: W1 L2 D0
Great Khali: W2 L0 D0
Vladimir Kozlov: W1 L0 D0
John Morrison: W2 L0 D0
Rey Mysterio: W0 L1 D0
Randy Orton: W5 L6 D3
CM Punk: W3 L1 D0
Zack Ryder: W0 L1 D0
Sheamus: W2 L17 D0
Yoshi Tatsu: W6 L0 D0

Totals: W39 L45 D6

How about the title reign...

Big Show: W2 L9 D1
Daniel Bryan: W3 L1 D0
John Cena: W0 L1 D0
Christian: W1 L0 D0
Great Khali: W1 L0 D0
John Morrison: W2 L0 D0
Randy Orton: W5 L3 D1
CM Punk: W1 L0 D0
Zack Ryder: W0 L1 D0

Totals: W15 L15 D2

Sorry amigo but Mark loses 'prime' and loses bad!

LSN80
03-30-2014, 02:36 PM
Jan - Dec 2004 Chris Benoit's record by opponent:

Batista: W10 L1 D0
Big Show: W0 L1 D0
Rob Conway: W2 L0 D0
Edge: W8 L2 D2
Eugene: W0 L0 D1
Ric Flair: W5 L0 D0
Matt Hardy: W1 L0 D0
Triple H: W24 L7 D0
Mark Henry: W2 L0 D0
Chris Jericho: W1 L0 D0
Kane: W15 L0 D0
Rodney Mack: W1 L0 D0
Shawn Michaels: W1 L1 D0
Matt Morgan: W0 L1 D0
Randy Orton: W2 L2 D0
Chuck Palumbo: W6 L0 D0
Rhyno: W1 L0 D0
Tyson Tomko: W1 L0 D0
Viscera: W1 L0 D0

Totals: W81 L15 D3

This becomes even more impressive if we only take his WHC run:

Batista: W3 L0 D0
Rob Conway: W1 L0 D0
Eugene: W0 L0 D1
Ric Flair: W3 L0 D0
Triple H: W24 L0 D0
Kane: W14 L0 D0
Shawn Michaels: W1 L0 D0
Matt Morgan: W0 L1 D0
Randy Orton: W2 L1 D0
Rhyno: W1 L0 D0

Totals: W49 L2 D1 (Record against Evolution: W32 L1 D0)


Mark Henry's period from his transfer to SmackDown in April 2011 - April 2012 (when he got injured).

Big Show: W4 L11 D2
Daniel Bryan: W6 L3 D1
John Cena: W0 L2 D0
Christian: W1 L1 D0
Johnny Curtis: W1 L0 D0
Chavo Guerrero Jnr: W1 L0 D0
Bobby Heller: W1 L0 D0
Ezekial Jackson: W3 L0 D0
Kane: W1 L2 D0
Great Khali: W2 L0 D0
Vladimir Kozlov: W1 L0 D0
John Morrison: W2 L0 D0
Rey Mysterio: W0 L1 D0
Randy Orton: W5 L6 D3
CM Punk: W3 L1 D0
Zack Ryder: W0 L1 D0
Sheamus: W2 L17 D0
Yoshi Tatsu: W6 L0 D0

Totals: W39 L45 D6

How about the title reign...

Big Show: W2 L9 D1
Daniel Bryan: W3 L1 D0
John Cena: W0 L1 D0
Christian: W1 L0 D0
Great Khali: W1 L0 D0
John Morrison: W2 L0 D0
Randy Orton: W5 L3 D1
CM Punk: W1 L0 D0
Zack Ryder: W0 L1 D0

Totals: W15 L15 D2

Sorry amigo but Mark loses 'prime' and loses bad!

Nate made some valid arguments that got me to abscond my original thoughts on this match, and had I considered them earlier, I would have voted Benoit. Benoit's prime was much more impressive then I gave him credit for, and I'll allow he'll have won this match, though I believe it would be tougher then you think. There's no chance Henry loses 'easy' here, and using house shows as a qualifier of someone's record holds no merit whatsoever. Benoit didn't defeat HHH 24 times on TV and PPV, nor did Henry do the same by losing nine times to the Big Show. The heel always loses at house shows, mostly by DQ, and the face hits his finisher on the heel champion after to send the crowd home happy. But I digress.

Both had nice runs as champion, but fell quickly back into the mid-card immediately after. Henry got another shot at Money In The Bank 13', but Cena submitted him, so that's not really a mark in his favor, is it?

Of course, Cena did the same to Benoit in '07, but it's Cena. Other then Daniel Bryan and some of the newer wrestlers(Shield, Wyatt's) on the roster, Cena has submitted them all, so it's not an accurate measurement.

Henry is the monster heel, Benoit the underdog. The underdog overcomes the odds, much like Benoit did at WM 20.

I was wrong. The first and last time I will ever type those words. Benoit moves on in a squeaker, kicking away a Henry charge into the corner and rolling him up. Again, it's a squeaker, Benoit's not going to crossface and submit an in his prime Henry in three minutes.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-30-2014, 02:58 PM
Hasn't stopped Benoit from being him and others of similar strength and size.


In Big Show or Kane's prime though?


It was declared a no-contest. Henry didn't attain anything.


If we want to get into technicalities, Mark Henry KO'd Big Show with a superplex.


So he took the coward's way out? Henry beat him before he was champion. He was too scared to do it when it counted?


That's the only real blemish on his WHC run. Champion Heels normally get DQ losses so it's not massive. It's not like Big Show got himself DQ'd against a guy like Benoit. Champion Faces aren't supposed to get help from interference from a comedy act that is more over than you.


Couldn't destroy him and get the pinfall, now could he?


Neither could Benoit pin HHH clean without HBK or Eugene's help, unless veiled in a Iron Match, where HHH could pin Benoit as much as he wanted. Oh yeah, and Eugene helped him there too.



xmadj3


:icon_neutral:

Don't make me pull out the Kane argument again.


xksdvb


If he could do this to Viscera, he could certainly do the same to Henry.


He suplexed Viscera a total of once, and Viscera scarcely got air. Not to mention, it was the penultimate move of the match, and Benoit was against a timer, so he was throwing everything he had in that suplex and crossface to beat the time. And don't even try to say that Henry won't be able to break the crossface because of that. Vis held on for a while, Kane could power out when pretty far out of his prime, and Prime Henry could do even more.


Kurt Angle beat Henry after he took out Batista. Matt Hardy beat Henry clean as a sheet to retain the ECW title. And why can't Benoit beat Henry again?


Angle is noticeably stronger than Benoit so he can throw him around. Not to mention, both matches aren't Henry's prime also. As an example, Khali could take an uppercut from Taker in his prime with ease. In 2013, he nearly got knocked off his feet by a Cesaro uppercut.



How long has Henry been billed as the World's Strongest Man?

Was he a weakling in 2004?

I thought he always had his strength and his size. Was he 200 pounds back then and I just didn't see it?


2004 Kane had MUCH more stock than 2004 Henry. 2011 Henry had much more stock than 2004 Kane.


Sure took him a long time to actually matter.

A guy's prime is a guy's prime, no matter how late it is in their career.

@FitFinlay: Those statistics are quite wrong, I'm afraid. If you're going to post false stats, at least make them realistic. I'm pretty sure HHH never lost 24 fucking times to Benoit during his title run, on TV or PPV at least.

nightmare
03-30-2014, 03:29 PM
Both guys were mid-carders for the majority of their careers. If this was a battle between them at their mid-card stages, Benoit would win.



Ok, so you agree that Benoit was better in terms of what he did in a period of time. The majority of his career, Benoit has made more of an impact then Henry has. You are trying to make a prime vs prime argument (Benoit was still better) yet ignoring your own statement that Benoit had the better career. You really are putting too much weight into a small run while minimizing the entire career of Benoit.





Henry in general has the advantage in a match because of his strength and size. Benoit's style is not very effective against a prime Henry.


Im sorry but are you somehow implying that Henry is strong now, but wasnt in 2004? Or that Benoit cant suplex him?


Thats just silly.



This isn't a tournament to determine how consistent someone is,................ It's a tournament to determine who has the tools to survive in a tournament environment.



That is called conditioning & is a very weak argument. Everyone has the tools to survive a tournament environment. What a dumbass statement. You are better than that Fallout. C'mon bro.


That isnt what this is about. This is about who wins based on criteria including , most importantly, who was a bigger star\had the better career. Since you already agreed Benoit has the better career, then I am not sure why you are still arguing.



Both of these guys could beat multiple guys in the first round, but Benoit has a rotten draw against a guy who could power out of his submission holds,


He could. I guess he just forgot how when Benoit made him tap?




The 2004 mach didn't mean jackshit because Henry meant nothing at that point.


So a victory means nothing? Bullshit.


Also, I do like how your whole argument is that Benoit could have been fed to Henry during his main event push- yet you ignore the point that Henry was, in fact, fed to Benoit during his. Do you see how stupid you sound insisting on the hypothetical while ignoring an obvious reality?

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-30-2014, 03:57 PM
Ok, so you agree that Benoit was better in terms of what he did in a period of time. The majority of his career, Benoit has made more of an impact then Henry has. You are trying to make a prime vs prime argument (Benoit was still better) yet ignoring your own statement that Benoit had the better career. You really are putting too much weight into a small run while minimizing the entire career of Benoit.

I agree that if it was a battle over who had the better career overall, Benoit would go over. But I'm comparing prime vs prime here, which is the point of the tournament. I'm not going to compare Bully Ray's run in the Dudleys with Daniel Bryan's time as US Champion. Bully Ray has won a lot more than Bryan has, but Bryan has been an top guy with better competition than Ray's run in TNA. I'm getting off-topic here, so I'll just say that I'm not factoring Benoit's dormancy in the mid-card, and I won't with Henry's either. Henry's stint, short as it may be, was a better run than Benoit's prime run with the WHC, which was also quite short when you think about it.

Also, Benoit as a mid-carder was not a period of his career. It was nearly the entirety of it. Just correcting that.


Im sorry but are you somehow implying that Henry is strong now, but wasnt in 2004? Or that Benoit cant suplex him?


Thats just silly.


No, I'm saying Henry has a hell of a lot more credibility than he did in 2004. If it were as easy as that, Henry wouldn't even be in the tournament in the first place. If Kane could break the submission hold in his down-time, Henry could do it in his prime.

That is called conditioning & is a very weak argument. Everyone has the tools to survive a tournament environment. What a dumbass statement. You are better than that Fallout. C'mon bro.

To be fair, I phrased that very poorly. I meant in the sense that this isn't a tournament about who the greatest ever is (which would require one poll in the Old School Wrestling section), it's about who will win in a fight, like the BZT. That's why we have gimmick rounds so a guy who is normally outclassed has a fighting chance. That's also why we have guys like ADR and Earthquake in the tournament. It would be ludicrous to call them the best in the world, but there might be a first round match-up that favours them. In this match, you guys have shown Benoit can hang with the bigger guys, but none of those guys were equal or better than Henry was in his prime in 2011.


That isnt what this is about. This is about who wins based on criteria including , most importantly, who was a bigger star\had the better career. Since you already agreed Benoit has the better career, then I am not sure why you are still arguing.


Again, why do you think we have gimmick rounds if they won't make a difference? Are we supposed to only analyse the actual wrestling in those matches alone? All we have to do is post one thread on the Old School Wrestling forum to determine who people think is the best.



He could. I guess he just forgot how when Benoit made him tap?


Responded to LJL about this.






So a victory means nothing? Bullshit.


Did Ultimate Warrior beating HHH in a squash mean anything? Not at all because it was well outside HHH's prime.


Also, I do like how your whole argument is that Benoit could have been fed to Henry during his main event push- yet you ignore the point that Henry was, in fact, fed to Benoit during his. Do you see how stupid you sound insisting on the hypothetical while ignoring an obvious reality?

I'm ignoring the reality because it bears very little to no weight on the conversation. If we want to talk about reality that matters, it's that Henry was beating upper-midcarders, and even Randy Orton consistently to overtake them in his Hall of Pain run, while Benoit could only beat the guys above him in either a triple threat environment or with the help of a comedy retard. Twice.

Y 2 Jake
03-30-2014, 04:23 PM
Is this thread legit? Of have I missed some kind of joke on the forum? Henry is barely a better big-man wrestler than Benoit. Henry has never even had a prime.

FitFinlay4Life
03-30-2014, 05:20 PM
@FitFinlay: Those statistics are quite wrong, I'm afraid. If you're going to post false stats, at least make them realistic. I'm pretty sure HHH never lost 24 fucking times to Benoit during his title run, on TV or PPV at least.

http://wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bilanzen&bilanzart=&wrestler=24&jahr=2004&monat=7

A typical month in his reign.

LSN, Henry's house show record has to count. He was being built as a monster heel and monster heels dominate - even at house shows...

http://wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bilanzen&bilanzart=&wrestler=335&jahr=2002&monat=9

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-30-2014, 05:28 PM
http://wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bilanzen&bilanzart=&wrestler=24&jahr=2004&monat=7

A typical month in his reign.

LSN, Henry's house show record has to count. He was being built as a monster heel and monster heels dominate - even at house shows...

http://wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bilanzen&bilanzart=&wrestler=335&jahr=2002&monat=9

It doesn't matter who wins or loses at house shows at all, and to suggest so is moronic.

You're missing the point of house shows too. The final match of house shows are the ones that are supposed to send the fans home happy, with a face going over a heel pretty much 100% of the time. Benoit's prime was as a face, Henry's was as a heel. No storyline advancement, and far from an important match.

ProWrestlingFan
03-30-2014, 05:35 PM
The final match of house shows are the ones that are supposed to send the fans home happy, with a face going over a heel pretty much 100% of the time.

Benoit's prime was as a face, Henry's was as a heel.

Exactly. Benoit's prime was as a face. Henry's so-called prime was as a heel.

This match is Prime Benoit vs Prime Henry.

Prime Benoit will always be booked to beat Prime Henry.

Thank you for proving our point of why a Prime Benoit will win this match.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-30-2014, 05:38 PM
Exactly. Benoit's prime was as a face. Henry's so-called prime was as a heel.

This match is Prime Benoit vs Prime Henry.

Prime Benoit will always be booked to beat Prime Henry.

Thank you for proving our point.

But this isn't a typical house show match. By that logic, anyone who had a prime as a heel can't get past a guy who had any sort of prime as a face.

Thank you for continuing to disgrace the respectable Benoit case.

FitFinlay4Life
03-30-2014, 05:53 PM
It doesn't matter who wins or loses at house shows at all, and to suggest so is moronic.

You're missing the point of house shows too. The final match of house shows are the ones that are supposed to send the fans home happy, with a face going over a heel pretty much 100% of the time. Benoit's prime was as a face, Henry's was as a heel. No storyline advancement, and far from an important match.

And yet Brock Lesnar won the vast majority of his house show matches when he was champion. Monsters should win, house show or not.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-30-2014, 06:05 PM
And yet Brock Lesnar won the vast majority of his house show matches when he was champion. Monsters should win, house show or not.

Because Brock Lesnar had an undefeated streak that was meant to be broken at Survivor Series by The Big Show. Henry had no such winning streak, so it wouldn't hurt him as much to lose.

nightmare
03-30-2014, 06:17 PM
I meant in the sense that this isn't a tournament about who the greatest ever is



Ummmm....

Welcome to the 8th Annual WrestleZone Tournament! Over the next several weeks we'll be going through a bracket to determine the greatest wrestler of all time.



http://media3.giphy.com/media/LFA6Qbj3Z7l4Y/200.gif




it's about who will win in a fight,


Jericho goes over Goldberg then yes? Brock Lesnar vs Ken Shamrock in the finals?

or do you mean:

Like the fight that already has taken place where Benoit won? Or are we talking about a hypothetical match you think could have happened in 2011/2012? In that case Zombie Benoit > Mark Henry.


Person with the better career? Benoit
Match history? Benoit
Better finisher? Benoit
Wrestlemania main events? Benoit


Notice a pattern there? I will give you this one though, Mark Henry was better at getting intimate with old ladies & trannies. That accolade you can have.

Bythedockofthebay
03-30-2014, 06:45 PM
I'm sorry but neither of these guys really had a "prime" to be proud of. Seriously if you're talking about a few months being a guys "prime" then you shouldn't even use it in your debate. Legacy here matter because neither guy had a great "prime" or much of a prime at all.

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-30-2014, 07:08 PM
^Easy tiger, save the Misawa propaganda for the next round. Which I don't necessarily disagree with.


http://media3.giphy.com/media/LFA6Qbj3Z7l4Y/200.gif


Sorry to grasp at straws here, but why would there be gimmick rounds if that was 100% the case? To give guys like Vader a chance against someone like Austin. Which implies it's not just about legacy, otherwise Hogan, Sammartino, Flair and Thesz would always be the final four of the tournament, and it wouldn't be fun. You could easily make a poll and give it publicity and get a very similar result. We actually look into fights and their abilities, like the BZT tournament with both guys at the peak of their form.

That's actually something worth talking to KB about to clarify now that I think about it.


Like the fight that already has taken place where Benoit won? Or are we talking about a hypothetical match you think could have happened in 2011/2012? In that case Zombie Benoit > Mark Henry.


Person with the better career? Benoit
Match history? Benoit
Better finisher? Benoit
Wrestlemania main events? Benoit


Notice a pattern there? I will give you this one though, Mark Henry was better at getting intimate with old ladies & trannies. That accolade you can have.

A match that would take place on a neutral battleground, in a timezone where both guys are at their peak. Plus, this entire tournament is pretty much all hypothetical when you think about it.

And you know, he's stronger ofc.

Hollywood Naitch
03-31-2014, 11:36 AM
Although Henry was a force to be reckoned with during his "Hall of Pain" run, he has had about a year and a half of being taken seriously as a top level wrestler during his 15 year+ career, while Chris Benoit was at least at IC title level for pretty much his entire WWE run. Benoit beat better than Henry, multiple times. I don't see any reason why this match would be any different.

Benoit is simply better than Henry is, and has ever been. He's one of the best technical wrestlers of all time, with one of the most deadly submission holds in history. Henry may have been given a win or 2 over Benoit when he was the Smackdown champion, but if we are looking at their whole careers and who is a better wrestler, then Benoit's achievements are far greater. He would win this.

FitFinlay4Life
03-31-2014, 11:46 AM
Because Brock Lesnar had an undefeated streak that was meant to be broken at Survivor Series by The Big Show. Henry had no such winning streak, so it wouldn't hurt him as much to lose.

Okay then, Benoit faced Triple H 7 times prior to WrestleMania and lost all 7. No streak here, so why didn't the face win to send the fans home happy?

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-31-2014, 11:50 AM
Okay then, Benoit faced Triple H 7 times prior to WrestleMania and lost all 7. No streak here, so why didn't the face win to send the fans home happy?

Because Benoit wasn't established enough yet to beat HHH at all, and even when he could, he couldn't do it cleanly. Also, I'll put my money on there being some beat-down at the end, but HBK comes out to make the save and send the crowd happy. Seriously though, stop reading into house show matches, this is enviousdominious/PWF tier, and you should know better than that.

FitFinlay4Life
03-31-2014, 03:45 PM
Because Benoit wasn't established enough yet to beat HHH at all, and even when he could, he couldn't do it cleanly. Also, I'll put my money on there being some beat-down at the end, but HBK comes out to make the save and send the crowd happy. Seriously though, stop reading into house show matches, this is enviousdominious/PWF tier, and you should know better than that.

This is kayfabe and (as such) house show records count. Otherwise we forget Diesel's WWF Championship run, Sting's title victory over Vader in the UK or that Flair and Hogan never really happened in the WWF because Vince felt that he'd already oversaturated the storyline on the houseshow market.

"Wasn't established enough"? The same Benoit who had PPV victories over Kurt Angle, Big Show and Brock Lesnar prior to this? Oh, and Trips defeated HBK as well on the run up to Mania - is he also unworthy?

Dan Severn's Moustache
03-31-2014, 04:24 PM
This is kayfabe and (as such) house show records count. Otherwise we forget Diesel's WWF Championship run, Sting's title victory over Vader in the UK or that Flair and Hogan never really happened in the WWF because Vince felt that he'd already oversaturated the storyline on the houseshow market.

"Wasn't established enough"? The same Benoit who had PPV victories over Kurt Angle, Big Show and Brock Lesnar prior to this? Oh, and Trips defeated HBK as well on the run up to Mania - is he also unworthy?

:icon_neutral:

There's a MASSIVE difference between a house show title change back in the 80's and 90's and a normal dual-branded house show in, let's say Cardiff in the 00's. You're counting house shows from small US cities and the like, which pale in comparison to say the January house show where Hogan beat Sheik.

Benoit had yet to reach his prime at that time as it was Wrestlemania build-up. HBK had had his prime already in the 90's, so it's not a big deal for HBK.

FitFinlay4Life
03-31-2014, 07:00 PM
:icon_neutral:

There's a MASSIVE difference between a house show title change back in the 80's and 90's and a normal dual-branded house show in, let's say Cardiff in the 00's. You're counting house shows from small US cities and the like, which pale in comparison to say the January house show where Hogan beat Sheik.

Benoit had yet to reach his prime at that time as it was Wrestlemania build-up. HBK had had his prime already in the 90's, so it's not a big deal for HBK.

Christian defeated Booker T for the IC belt just months prior to this in Des Moines, Iowa. In 2008 in Hamilton, Ontario The Miz/John Morrison defeated CM Punk/Kofi Kingston for the Tag Belts. Epico and Primo won the Tag Belts off Air Boom two years ago in Oakland. The Women's Title changed hands in Paris in 2007. Title changes are rare but house shows still generally follow storyline and exceptions like those listed still provide that slight possibility that brings in paying customers.

Benoit was coming off a period were he defeated three former World Champions (Angle, Show, Lesnar), I don't think he was too far off his prime... unlike Henry, who was drafted to SmackDown after two years of failing to win tag team gold.

Rainbow Yaz
03-31-2014, 07:26 PM
Using house show results for pro wrestling is like using preseason NFL games for arguments. Every now and then you can find some decent info, but most of the information is largely useless.

Most house show title changes have story behind them. When Air Boom lost the titles it was days after Bourne pissed hot, so they pretty much defaulted the titles to the only other relevant team at the time.

FitFinlay4Life
03-31-2014, 08:45 PM
Using house show results for pro wrestling is like using preseason NFL games for arguments. Every now and then you can find some decent info, but most of the information is largely useless.

Most house show title changes have story behind them. When Air Boom lost the titles it was days after Bourne pissed hot, so they pretty much defaulted the titles to the only other relevant team at the time.

Maybe so, and if I was picking a single show, I'd be pissing up the stupid tree. However, houseshows can be used as an overview of a reasonably lengthy title run to gauge how the champion is being presented. In this case, Benoit was portrayed as a strong champion who overcame strong opponents and Henry was portrayed as a guy who relied on DQs and Countouts to overcome his better opponents. As the argument for Mark is the dominance of his reign, this goes against the argument.

However, to be fair here is Mark's 1vs1 television history with the BGB:

Randy Orton: 2 clean wins and 2 dq loses
Christian: 1 clean win
Great Khali: 1 clean win
John Morrison: 1 clean win
CM Punk: 1 dq win
Daniel Bryan: 1 clean win and 1 dq win
Big Show: 1 no contest and 1 clean defeat

So in his 2 month reign he had 6 clean wins out of 12 1on1 matches, not really that dominant.

Benoit's TV reign:

Rhyno: 1 clean win
Rob Conway: 1 clean win
Shawn Michaels: 1 clean win
Kane: 2 clean wins
Triple H: 2 clean wins
Eugene: 1 no contest
Batista: 1 dq win
Randy Orton: 1 clean loss

In his 5 month reign he had 7 clean wins out of 10 1on1 matches (and that's ignoring both 3 ways) despite the best efforts of Evolution throughout his reign.

Awesome_Miz
04-01-2014, 09:22 PM
Just to clear the minds of the people who might still be undetermined for this "match"(haha made me laugh):

Benoit: Won the World Heavyweight Championship Henry. What ever happen to your career besides your "more famous than you" Hand-son?

Henry: Oh, I won the World Heavyweight Title as well.

Benoit: Really? Where at and against whom?

Henry: Against Orton at a B PPV show.

Benoit: That's nice to hear. I remember beating Orton's mentor and Mr. WRESTLEMANIA! AT WRESTLEMANIA IN THE MAIN EVENT!!!

Case and point.

Dan Severn's Moustache
04-01-2014, 10:56 PM
9 votes between them. Considering Benoit and Henry are both overrated and underrated a fair amount on this forum, I'll take it. Well argued though, particularly LJL and Haiku.

I still think Henry should have won for my listed reasons, but I'm glad that it came it came to the wire and wasn't a crushing victory for Benoit.