PDA

View Full Version : Int Region, Fourth Round, TLC Match: (4) Bruno Sammartino vs. (9) Vader


klunderbunker
04-11-2013, 04:57 PM
This is a fourth round match in the International Region. It is a Tables Ladders and Chairs Match match held under International Rules, meaning the match is held under the standard rules of the country the match is held in. It will be held at the Arena Mexico in Mexico City, Mexico. Assume one week has passed since the second round match.

http://rudosneza.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/arena-mexico.jpg

Tables Ladders and Chairs Match Rules: The match is contested under the same rules as a ladder match with a stuffed goat head above the ring. The first person to climb a ladder and retrieve the goat head wins. The usage of tables, ladders and chairs to injure your opponent is legal and encourages.

http://espn.go.com/photo/2013/0204/play_e_sammartino_400.jpg

#4. Bruno Sammartino

Vs.

http://thatshowkidsdie.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/271.jpg

#9. Vader



Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

Steamboat Ricky
04-11-2013, 05:26 PM
Well, in terms of total pounds divided by number of participants, this would surely be the HEAVIEST TLC match of all-time. These are generally matches that favor the nimble and the quick, but both of these participants tend to play the power game.

I have to say that I think Bruno would pull this one out, as I see no real advantage on either side. Bruno is the better overall wrestler, and in situations like these...you have to go with the better overall guy.

Vote Bruno.

It's...Baylariat!
04-11-2013, 06:22 PM
I'm wanting to see IC give the case for Vader to go over Bruno. Bruno had the longest title reign in the WWE's history... sold out venues around North America and is known as one of the most resilient wrestlers in the world.

And talk about brutality! This is going to end with someone being near death due to the use of weapons such as the chair and tables. And both can climb a ladder. Vader is as agile a big man as there's ever been... but Bruno's quicker... and all Bruno has to do is daze Vader long enough to climb a ladder, not pin him.

Vote Bruno, unless IC comes in and sweeps me and others off their feet with his case for Vader.

IrishCanadian25
04-11-2013, 08:23 PM
I'd need time for this one, and time isn't a luxury I have. I'd argue that Vader is an evolution of athlete, the likes of which Bruno never faced. These two men match strength, power, intensity, work ethic, and speed. Vader may have the slightest edge in agility, not because Bruno ISN'T agile, but because Bruno wrestled in an era where it was less on display.

I do, however, feel TLC favors Vader HEAVILLY. Bruno wrestled clean, and wrestled at a time when the use of chairs was rare, and the idea of using a ladder or a table in a match was unheard of.

The key here isn't the ladder climb - if Vader can moonsault from the top rope, he can climb a damn ladder, so don't bring that "derp-a-durr fat guys can't climb ladders" argument to me. Go to Home Depot at 6 am when the contractors arrive. LOTS of fat dudes climb ladders, and none of those guys are doing top rope moonsaults of Vader bombs. The only Superheavyweght in history MORE equipped to climb a ladder is Bam Bam Bigelow.

I'm voting Vader in part due to his brutality. Bruno was a grappler, a wrestler, a man's man. Vader comes from an era where the use of tables, ladders, and chairs were a bit more common. I'm not saying Bruno won't know how to wield such a weapon, I'm merely saying his comfort zone is in grappling, whereas Vader's comfort zone is in brutality. Bruno will go for a hold, and Vader will go for a table.

Vader wins due to brutality and experience in a more hardcore style. Need proof? See his Texas Death Match at Halloween Havoc vs Cactus Jack.

ServantofTwilight
04-11-2013, 08:47 PM
I'd need time for this one, and time isn't a luxury I have. I'd argue that Vader is an evolution of athlete, the likes of which Bruno never faced. These two men match strength, power, intensity, work ethic, and speed. Vader may have the slightest edge in agility, not because Bruno ISN'T agile, but because Bruno wrestled in an era where it was less on display.

I do, however, feel TLC favors Vader HEAVILLY. Bruno wrestled clean, and wrestled at a time when the use of chairs was rare, and the idea of using a ladder or a table in a match was unheard of.

The key here isn't the ladder climb - if Vader can moonsault from the top rope, he can climb a damn ladder, so don't bring that "derp-a-durr fat guys can't climb ladders" argument to me. Go to Home Depot at 6 am when the contractors arrive. LOTS of fat dudes climb ladders, and none of those guys are doing top rope moonsaults of Vader bombs. The only Superheavyweght in history MORE equipped to climb a ladder is Bam Bam Bigelow.

I'm voting Vader in part due to his brutality. Bruno was a grappler, a wrestler, a man's man. Vader comes from an era where the use of tables, ladders, and chairs were a bit more common. I'm not saying Bruno won't know how to wield such a weapon, I'm merely saying his comfort zone is in grappling, whereas Vader's comfort zone is in brutality. Bruno will go for a hold, and Vader will go for a table.

Vader wins due to brutality and experience in a more hardcore style. Need proof? See his Texas Death Match at Halloween Havoc vs Cactus Jack.

Bruno has defeated the likes of George 'The Animal' Steele and Killer Kowalski in stretcher matches. He has beaten the likes of Ivan Kololf, Steele, Volkolf and Monsoon in Texas death Matches. Bruno is the uncrowned king of the Cage match having defeated the likes of Kololf, Steele, Hansan, Savage and Piper( in 1986 ). In matches of these types he routinely used chairs and the ring bell to earn a victory. Add to the fact that he has handled easily wrestlers Vader's size, dominated Vader-like stiff wrestler Hansan and is pound for pound the strongest wrestler ever should mean an easy victory for The Living Legend.

FitFinlay4Life
04-11-2013, 09:10 PM
Had Sammartino not had such a cakewalk against Jericho and Vader a war against Austin, I might well have given the mastodon the edge here but I have to stay consistent and I think that the relative difficulty of the previous round would give Bruno the deciding edge as I'd be surprised if the, literally, whiplashed Vader can even look up to see the head.

Bruno for me

HBsam31
04-11-2013, 11:47 PM
I don't think Bruno would find it hard to adapt to a harder core style of a match. He definitely has the size and strength to compete with Vader. I really wanted to see Vader make it farther in the tournament, but I am having a hard time finding a reason to vote for him here. I am leaning towards Bruno, but I could still be convinced to vote Vader.

Dirk
04-12-2013, 02:16 AM
I get that some people are flabbergasted that Vader is such a threat in this competition. From what I've read about Bruno, he was a much, much bigger deal than Vader. You get that feeling about Vader is most of his later matches - that simply he's outclassed by most of his opponents.

It's not just about drawing power and booking: These guys are matched for strength, but Vader is a little quicker. While Vader may also be at home more in a TLC-environment, Bruno worked in a less professional era where they often had to subdue shooters who deviated from the script (from what I've read).

Leaning towards Vader, but not nearly convinced.

FitFinlay4Life
04-12-2013, 08:36 AM
I get that some people are flabbergasted that Vader is such a threat in this competition. From what I've read about Bruno, he was a much, much bigger deal than Vader. You get that feeling about Vader is most of his later matches - that simply he's outclassed by most of his opponents.

It's not just about drawing power and booking: These guys are matched for strength, but Vader is a little quicker. While Vader may also be at home more in a TLC-environment, Bruno worked in a less professional era where they often had to subdue shooters who deviated from the script (from what I've read).

Leaning towards Vader, but not nearly convinced.

I would have loved to have put a case forward for BVV as well but I had to remain consistent with what I believe would be lineage to this years WZT.

First off, a confession of guilt... I have made a mistake in my previous understanding of the 3rd and 4th round matches. I believed that the quarter finals where split across two different venues which they are not. That being said, I do stand by my assertion that rounds 3 and 4 occur the same evening because:

Rounds 5-7 (7 matches) which are likely to produce the longest bouts happens on one night, would it not follow that Rounds 3-4 (6 matches) would follow the same format?
KB has said that damage sustained from round 3 on can influence future bouts - highly unlikely if a week passes from round 3 to round 4 so why bring in the rule now rather than leaving it to the one night only finals?


With that in mind - Sammartino crushed Jericho in the last round in an Embarrassment Match while Vader had the shock of the round in toppling Stone Cold but at a cost - it was a very close run thing. Throw in that it was a much more physically demanding stip (a strap match) and it stands to reason that the mastodon is probably in poor physical condition. So we have a pretty much peak prime Bruno vs a battered and bruised Vader and I just couldn't see him overcoming this. The face is meant to be the one to overcome the odds, not the heel and I think that means that Bruno Sammartino is, therefore, the right man to go over.

I don't know if that helps any but it's my tupence worth bra.

Poop Master Flex
04-12-2013, 09:33 AM
I know how good Bruno is, I respect the fact he was champ over 11 years, I also understand the fact that Bruno was actually a very versatile wrestler who could easily change styles based on his opponent and the match he was in. In short, its a bad idea to count out Bruno in such a match, he definitely has the tools to win this match.

Vader on the other hand is a destroyer and has beaten bigger names than Bruno within an inch of their life. This is a match that can turn very ugly very quickly and Vader gets ugly with the best of them. He knows how to be violent and he knows how to use his environment to his advantage.

Not too sure right now on this one, Bruno is the easy answer but its unfair to count out Vader in such a match.

Big Nick Dudley
04-12-2013, 12:19 PM
Just imagine - we could've had an Austin vs. Bruno match. So sad...

Anyhow, I'm going with Bruno. He was as powerful as they come and could easily handle a man of Vader's size. Oh, and he was as dominant as anyone has been with that strap. I don't see any good reason to vote for Vader, and doing so would be even worse (given Bruno's physical nature) than voting Vader over Austin.

Bruno should, and hopefully does, move on.

IrishCanadian25
04-12-2013, 12:38 PM
One quick note - there is a man Bruno Sammartino struggled with a bit, and that is Harley Race. Harley Race was the NWA Champion shirtly after Bruno's 2nd WWWF Title Reign, and the two men wrestled a classic to a 60 minute draw. Harley Race is one of the men who truly knows Bruno Sammartino, along side Kowalski, Baba, Monsoon, and a few others.

During Vader's prime, his manager was...Harley Race.

I promise you that Vader will be better prepared and have a better scouting report on Sammartino than Bruno will on Big Van.

IrishCanadian25
04-12-2013, 12:54 PM
Just imagine - we could've had an Austin vs. Bruno match. So sad...

Anyhow, I'm going with Bruno. He was as powerful as they come and could easily handle a man of Vader's size. Oh, and he was as dominant as anyone has been with that strap. I don't see any good reason to vote for Vader, and doing so would be even worse (given Bruno's physical nature) than voting Vader over Austin.

Bruno should, and hopefully does, move on.

I feel like you're backing Bruno because you're upset about Austin.

Even still, I understand the pro-Sammartino love. Of course, he's never gotten a run like this in the WZT that I can recall. Must be the Hall of Fame induction.

Bruno's a great champ and a great wrestler. A man's man. If he ends Vader's run here, I'll be ok with it, but I maintain that the TLC Rules significantly favor Vader. And spare me the "Bruno was more popular" bull shit. Popularity doesn't win TLC matches.

One more point on why Vader's a good choice - a man with Vader's power and size can effectively negate Sammartino's Bear Hug finisher. If Bruno gets THAT close to Vader, he's taking some stiff punches.

I read Bruno's wikipedia page in hopes of finding a weakness. Very few to be found. I can tell you that Harley Race, an opponent of Sammartino's, was Vader's manager, and that Bruno's bear hug is fairly useless. There is no mention made to any hardcore types of matches that Bruno wrestled, save for Steel Cage matches, which this is not.

And if you want to go the booking argument rather than kayfabe, then consider that Bruno would probably be so insulted and put off by the prospect of a wrestling match involving tables, ladders, and chairs that he would refuse to show up entirely, launching a feud with another McMahon.

Allah Loves PaperGhost
04-12-2013, 01:09 PM
One quick note - there is a man Bruno Sammartino struggled with a bit, and that is Harley Race. Harley Race was the NWA Champion shirtly after Bruno's 2nd WWWF Title Reign, and the two men wrestled a classic to a 60 minute draw. Harley Race is one of the men who truly knows Bruno Sammartino, along side Kowalski, Baba, Monsoon, and a few others.

During Vader's prime, his manager was...Harley Race.

I promise you that Vader will be better prepared and have a better scouting report on Sammartino than Bruno will on Big Van.



I told you I'd hate Vader from now on. No I give it to Bruno. Bruno lost to Billy Graham and that was contentious. There were big men in his era as well. Super-heavyweights and people paid to see Bruno throwing these super-weights around. Isn't Bruno the man who slammed Haystacks Calhoun?


Bruno.

It's...Baylariat!
04-12-2013, 01:31 PM
Here's another factor for Vader and Bruno supporters - elevation.

I know it's trivial, but Mexico City's elevation is over a MILE above sea level. That takes away a lot of the stamina and tenacity needed to last long in this match. Expect both guys to end up gassed due to this, and based on what I've seen, Bruno's in better cardiovascular shape. Vader has wrestled in Mexico, too so it could be a push in this regard.

It's something else to consider when voting though.

Big Nick Dudley
04-12-2013, 07:19 PM
I feel like you're backing Bruno because you're upset about Austin.

Somewhat. That, and Bruno rarely loses... to anyone. And by rarely, I mean you can probably count those clean losses on one hand.

Even still, I understand the pro-Sammartino love. Of course, he's never gotten a run like this in the WZT that I can recall. Must be the Hall of Fame induction.

That and him being quite possibly the greatest World Heavyweight Champion in wrestling history.

Bruno's a great champ and a great wrestler. A man's man. If he ends Vader's run here, I'll be ok with it, but I maintain that the TLC Rules significantly favor Vader. And spare me the "Bruno was more popular" bull shit. Popularity doesn't win TLC matches.

And neither does the "Vader's too big and strong" argument. Vader wasn't Andre The Giant. Vader wasn't that dominant. Nowhere near Bruno's league.

One more point on why Vader's a good choice - a man with Vader's power and size can effectively negate Sammartino's Bear Hug finisher. If Bruno gets THAT close to Vader, he's taking some stiff punches.

Bear Hug doesn't mean much in a TLC match, so that negates your point. Who can climb that ladder that first, that's what matters.

I read Bruno's wikipedia page in hopes of finding a weakness. Very few to be found. I can tell you that Harley Race, an opponent of Sammartino's, was Vader's manager, and that Bruno's bear hug is fairly useless. There is no mention made to any hardcore types of matches that Bruno wrestled, save for Steel Cage matches, which this is not.

How many ladder matches has Vader had? From my own little research, I've found zero. I don't remember him being in a ladder match, either. Neither man has any "gimmick" style advantage here, and it really can't be spun any other way.

Allah Loves PaperGhost
04-12-2013, 07:55 PM
Bruno has had matches that have tested his endurance and stamina. He has had constant 2 out of 3 falls matches back in his day, defeated Bill Watts and Gorilla Monsoon, two big men in their own right in those.

Bruno has been in bloody battles.

Defeated The Sheik in a Texas Death Match in 1968
Defeated Killer Kowalski in a Texas Death Match in 1974
Defeated Ivan Koloff in a Steel Cage Match in 1975
Defeated Spiros Arion in a Greek Death Match in 1975

And now the coup de grace

in 1976,

Defeated Stan Hansen in a Cage Match
Defeated Bruiser Brody in a Texas Death Match

He defeated arguably the strongest man to wrestle in the WWWF in Ken Patera, in a Texas Death Match, TWICE.



And now since this is the International Circuit, for AJPW-

Bruno & Baba beat Tiger Jeet Singh & Umanosuke Ueda in Japan.

Bruno never lost overseas. He is someone who has been around the world and carried the WWWF belt with pride and gusto. He took on pig-headed shooters and broke their spirit. He took on sadistic hardcore specialists and came out on top.

This would be a tough match, but Bruno wins. Sheer power to put the big man down.

IrishCanadian25
04-12-2013, 09:46 PM
I told you I'd hate Vader from now on. No I give it to Bruno. Bruno lost to Billy Graham and that was contentious. There were big men in his era as well. Super-heavyweights and people paid to see Bruno throwing these super-weights around. Isn't Bruno the man who slammed Haystacks Calhoun?


Bruno.

Vader >>>>>> Haystacks.

Sorry mate, but Calhoun WAS just a fat guy who drew because of his immense size. He wasn't the athlete Vader was, and honestly to compare the two is a detriment to Bruno, since you back him.

For the record, I NEVER claimed Vader was anywhere near unslammable. Sting used to slam Vader 3-5 times / match. He's lose, of course, but he'd slam Vader.

If you want to hate on Vader and vote against him, I can't stop you. But at least don't embarrass yourself by trying to justify it with the argumentative equivalent of a sieve.

IrishCanadian25
04-12-2013, 09:54 PM
Bruno has had matches that have tested his endurance and stamina. He has had constant 2 out of 3 falls matches back in his day, defeated Bill Watts and Gorilla Monsoon, two big men in their own right in those.

Bruno has been in bloody battles.

Defeated The Sheik in a Texas Death Match in 1968
Defeated Killer Kowalski in a Texas Death Match in 1974
Defeated Ivan Koloff in a Steel Cage Match in 1975
Defeated Spiros Arion in a Greek Death Match in 1975

And now the coup de grace

in 1976,

Defeated Stan Hansen in a Cage Match
Defeated Bruiser Brody in a Texas Death Match

He defeated arguably the strongest man to wrestle in the WWWF in Ken Patera, in a Texas Death Match, TWICE.



And now since this is the International Circuit, for AJPW-

Bruno & Baba beat Tiger Jeet Singh & Umanosuke Ueda in Japan.

Bruno never lost overseas. He is someone who has been around the world and carried the WWWF belt with pride and gusto. He took on pig-headed shooters and broke their spirit. He took on sadistic hardcore specialists and came out on top.

This would be a tough match, but Bruno wins. Sheer power to put the big man down.

Now THIS is a decent argument.

I'd love to refute it. Let me correct that - I can't refute it. I'd love to match it, but Vader is currently down 14-5, and like I said before, I'm ok with it. I want Vader to win one of these one year, but I get the loss to Bruno. A loss to Austin last round would have pissed me off. This doesn't bug me a bit. Bruno's the man. I would STILL pick Vader to win, but clearly, I'm biased.

Allah Loves PaperGhost
04-12-2013, 10:29 PM
Vader >>>>>> Haystacks.

Sorry mate, but Calhoun WAS just a fat guy who drew because of his immense size. He wasn't the athlete Vader was, and honestly to compare the two is a detriment to Bruno, since you back him.

For the record, I NEVER claimed Vader was anywhere near unslammable. Sting used to slam Vader 3-5 times / match. He's lose, of course, but he'd slam Vader.

If you want to hate on Vader and vote against him, I can't stop you. But at least don't embarrass yourself by trying to justify it with the argumentative equivalent of a sieve.

Oh Vader>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Calhoun times a thousand brother!

My context was that Bruno would have no problem handling a super-heavyweight. It's not the slamming, and perhaps I didn't make it clear I see Bruno overpowering Vader pretty well. His feats of strength are legendary and it would be a nice spectacle, Bruno going up against Vader.

I don't like Vader because it looked he genuinely took liberties with Foley. Maybe that was planned but it always looked he took it too far. Hey I'm squimish! Sue me!

Tastycles
04-14-2013, 08:24 AM
I'd need time for this one, and time isn't a luxury I have.

He only needs time to construct an argument, because there's not a clear one in Vader's favour. I don't mean a clear overall reason for Vader to win, I mean any small individual advantage in the man's favour. Sammartino spent his career beating men who were larger than him in an impressive fashion, and his no nonsense attitude would have served him well in the gimmick environment. This is all Bruno, all the way.

8thwotwATG
04-14-2013, 06:08 PM
Sammartino goes over Vader. Bruno spent a quarter of a century in the main event in virtually every part of the world he wrestled in. He turned back heel challenger after heel challenger, usually in clean fashion in blowoff matches, during his first, historic title reign. Many, many of his opponents during that time were bigger, and nearly as strong as he was then. Don Leo Jonathan, Dr. Bill Miller, Gorilla Monsoon, Killer Kowalski all come to mind as opponents larger than Sammartino, and the Living Legend beat all of them. In the TLC environment here, I could see Bruno taking a whole ton of punishment, even being power bombed through a table, but being the great perennial face that he was, he survives the PB and comes back to overwhelm big Leon with a barrage that ultimately gets him the win. Bruno goes over in a tough match.